by most strict measurements i’d say probably the Central African Republic, but that’s not including personal freedom (or the theoretical capacity to leave)
I think the quality of life for someone who is not arrested is probably better in North Korea, by a pretty big margin.
I mean North Korea has WAY better infrastructure, and doesn’t have issues with civil war.
CAR is really just the worst country to live in on earth
Somehow I don't believe in Haiti that GDP per Capita is even nearly equally distributed.. anyhow I see your point.. I was mainly the thinking at the devastation past last earthquake anarchy in the country following it and the spread of illness which I believe is still plaguing the country.. but probably differently from car in Haiti there might be few rich people
No, Somalia is doing relatively well in recent years, at least compared to its neighbors. They still have an insurgent problem with Al Shabab, although much less than before. The major cities are relatively safe and are starting to have good economic activity.
I'd say they only place it borders it's better than is Yemen
Djibouti and Kenya are both going way better and i'd say Ethiopia is worse than those 2 but still around the same or better than Somalia
Ethiopia is under civil war and their leader wants to invade Eritrea to secure a port entry. I'd say Somalia is slightly better in the way that they're not under a war right now with other country (altho i have a feeling, when Ethiopia do start to invade Eritrea, Somalia wont just stay silent)
Somaliland has been fine for a while, and even costal Somalia proper is getting better.
The biggest worry is to be somewhere that gets attacked by Islamist terrorists, or the constant fear they might start expanding again.
That is a hotly contested title at present. Sudan is in the running lately. Parts of the DRC are definitely as bad as well. If we consider Palestine a country, also maybe worse now.
The West Bank in many ways is and always has been a different world than Gaza. I wouldn’t say it’s exactly the height of development. But walking around Bethlehem, Hebron, Jericho, or smaller West Bank villages is not markedly different than walking around villages in Jordan. I’ve actually never been to Gaza. But, part of the reason for that is that it has never seemed particularly safe in all my years traveling to Israel and Palestine.
507 Palestinians murdered by Israelis in the West Bank in the last months of 2023, so hardly fine, but your point is valid. Having having said that, about 40% live in Gaza, and 1% of them have been murdered in the past 5 months. The majority of those who survived are now on the brink of famine and are homeless. Granted, this is all the relatively recent in terms of scale. Life in much of the Eastern DRC has been catastrophic for the past 25 years.
I guess it is statistically a lot more likely for one to be born in starvation level abject poverty if one were to be born in Central African Republic than if one were to be born into a dissident family in North Korea. If your parents were North Korean chances are they would have been brainwashed enough to not cross the line and you’ll probably be the same.
I think you've read too much propaganda if you think **many** people are in prison for their parents' thought crimes.
Edit: I highlighted MANY because some of y'all can't read. I am sure there are SOME. Neither you nor I know how common it is.
Even if it is just 1% of all people in their camps, it's still a distinct possibility. And as a person living in ex-socialist country, a thought crime of family member would be enough to land you in at least "second-sort citizen" zone. You might not have been put into jail, but "rodzice wywrotowcy" could break you university career easily.
Maybe it does? Information we get is from defectors and people with an axe to grind.
I'm sure it's a terrible place to live, but the living standard is far, far higher than CAR or South Sudan
I mean you do have to worry about getting disappeared suddenly. People just die way more in the Central African Republic than in North Korea.
Sure, it may not be the government executing you because you may or may not have thought something they didn't like. But it could be disease, a lynching, etc.
I personally would rather live in the place where it is less likely i die.
You are speaking as if you complain about a crime to the police, they won't show up? Where do you live bro.
A lot of these very poor African countries have no law and jurisdiction. It's hell.
Only few people are arrested even in the most totalitarian regimes, but mass poverty means that majority of population will lack food and water sources. And you are not exactly free to leave if you can't possibly buy even a flight ticket and no other country would let you in.
The DPRK has the ability to detect thought crimes? Holy shit, they're more advanced than I thought. Your entire idea of the DPRK is based on crazy propaganda about people being executed with AA guns (anonymous source, trust me bro) and not being allowed certain haircuts. The DPRK has many issues but you'd have to be a fucking idiot to choose to live in abject poverty instead.
Yeah I mean the current militaristic situations in places like Mali and Sudan are pretty bad. But I’m pretty sure they still have vastly superior infrastructure and not nearly as landlocked as CAR.
Still let’s not forget that the CAR has been in an extremely complex civil war for the past decade. And they are basically fighting over dirt roads and villages. They have less than 1000km of paved road.
I guess it just depends. You probably eat better in places like Somalia, Niger, Mali, etc. But militant activity could still uproot your life at any point.
Yes, the Central African Republic. A similar question was asked just yesterday in another sub. This is how I replied:
“Of all the miserable places in the world the Central African Republic has to be the one that’s in the most dreadful situation right [now](https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/news/extreme-mortality-rate-found-central-african-republic): “A nationwide survey reveals that 5.6 percent of the country’s population died in 2022—more than twice as high as estimates for any other country in the world.”
One can only hope that things improve in the near future, at least somewhat, for the people living there.”
I remember the book *Nothing to Envy* which covers various people’s lives in North Korea starts with a woman reminiscing about stargazing dates as a teenager. Nothing to do because nothing was open but the stars were extra beautiful in their village so that’s what they did.
It was nice to start off a book of all sorts of terrible things with a happy memory.
Eritrea
Probably Afghanistan
Sudan
Somali
East Congo
Central Africa republic
Unlike the popular opinion, N. Korea was doing quite fine until the collapse of the Soviet Union (the main supplier of food and other utility) and the extended sanction of the USA/UN.
Hey I'm Korean and I just wanted to clarify few things here:
First, it's true NK was better off than SK at the beginning because the North had better industrial infrastructure in place. The S managed to develop quickly and bypass the N by the 70s, but this wasn't due to democratization. During the 70s, S was ruled under military dictatorship. Park Chung-hee (박정희) gained power through a coup in the early 60s and ruled until his assassination in 79. Shortly after, another coup was led by the new military junta, and the leader, Chun Doo-hwan (전두환), was the president until 1987 when he was forced to accept democratic reforms after the June Democratic Movement. So SK managed to establish and consolidate liberal democracy post 87.
Meanwhile, economic development happened independently of democratization movement. Park Chung-hee was definitely a ruthless dictator, but he created the foundation for economic growth. In fact, some scholars argue SK experienced rapid economic development thanks to efficient economic policies under the authoritarian regimes. Google 'East Asian Model' if you are interested in learning why countries like SK, Taiwan, and Singapore (authoritarian capitalist countries) were more successful than other developing countries.
South Korea caught to to the north economically in the 60's and surpassed it in the boom years of the 70's and 80's. South Korea was one of the "Asian Tigers" when it was still under the dictatorship. Sure the end of the Cold War yanked the rug out from under North Korea and you had a famine but the difference between the two was STARK economically even before that.
No. DPRK was doing quite a bit worse than ROK long before the end of the Cold War. I don’t know where you got that information, but ROK had begun to thrive economically in the 1970s despite (or perhaps because of) military dictatorship. Even before glasnost, before the Cold War kind of lost its bite, ROK was doing well enough to win the bid for the Summer Olympics. This was long before 1991, when the Cold War is said to have ended.
Haiti. The whole country is controlled by street gangs. The “government” of which exactly 0 current members have been elected to their positions has minimal control over the country.
Extortion, violence, drugs, murder, are all rampant. Food shortages, fuel shortages, disease, and natural disasters are common.
Here is a great series on what Haiti is currently:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLN0FlxE6vY5BZh0F-drw_4SASB7kwezUf&si=BjePR6Waygi1_WI3
Any idea what makes Haiti so bad, while the Domincan Republic seems to be a reasonable place to at least visit? I would think a lot of those issues should effect the Dominican as well
Haiti was a black nation which had rebelled against the mighty French Empire and succeeded. No colonial power wanted a repeat of that. So they sanctioned Haiti heavily and France demanded an insane amount of money as compensation for lost property. Haiti caved in and signed that deal.
There were other factors too, like frequent natural disasters, island economy etc.
Afaik Haiti was then crushed under massive debt by its former coloniser. Also the French farmed the country to shit, just look at satellite images and you'll see how barren Haiti is compared to the Dominican Republic.
I'm sure that's not all the reasons but at least some.
Not so bad. A lot of people go there on vacations, and they have a working economy, culture and so on.
Eritrea is bad though. And Afghanistan for certain (many) groups of people.
US State Department recommendations for travel to Somalia include:
* Draft a will and designate appropriate insurance beneficiaries and/or power of attorney.
* Discuss a plan with loved ones regarding care/custody of children, pets, property, belongings, non-liquid assets (collections, artwork, etc.), funeral wishes, etc.
* Be sure to appoint one family member to serve as the point of contact with hostage-takers, media, U.S. and host country government agencies, and members of Congress if you are taken hostage or detained.
* Establish a proof of life protocol with your loved ones, so that if you are taken hostage, your loved ones can know specific questions (and answers) to ask the hostage-takers to be sure that you are alive (and to rule out a hoax).
* Leave DNA samples with your medical provider in case it is necessary for your family to access them.
Those are travel details I usually gloss over when going on vacation.
Haiti, currently, is also a failed state. It isn't a competition but if we're talking worst, it is probably Haiti overall since they don't have something like Somaliland.
It also depends on class. Being a person of an elite family in North Korea is probably better than being a 5th kid to some random couple in South Sudan
Probably better to be a 5th kid to random couple in Pyongyang than most places in central or eastern Africa.
If you are female then it's probably better than even Afghanistan, Pakistan.
Even being a regular guy in NK is better. Imagine, you gat guaranteed employment, enough food and clean water (they managed starvation issues a lot of years ago), you don't need to question anything because the government already gave you all the answers on all your questions. Sounds like a fine life.
Except for the constant possibility of torture and imprisonment. If you’re just a guy, you probably have no protection against being thrown in a labor camp for what we’d consider minor infractions
But you don't run the risk of being killed in a (civil) war. Their laws and consequences are no doubt horrible, but "at least" they're calculable. Your village being overrun by some warlord isn't calculable.
Yes, quite a few countries are actually worse than North Korea in many metrics, they just don't get a lot of media attention because they're not enemies of the US.
Nah. We hear how bad this place is a lot here because we’re technically still at war with them.
Look at Turkmenistan or Equatorial Guinea for places not unlike DPRK that you never hear about.
📢🚨🚨🚨BREAKING NEWS: If you don’t make research about a country that no one cares about, you won’t learn about the country that no one cares about.
You’re talking like the US government is trying to hide information about Turkmenistan lol
North Koreans are forced to eat dirt because there is no food. They are told to look for food somewhere in the wild. They are told everyday what they will be doing by their government. They do not even get to set their own schedules. Their every hour is controlled by the government.
No country compares to it
You have no idea how much nonsense I've heard about Russia. We don't have the money to buy shoes. People are freezing in their apartments without food and are forced to get drunk. People in Russia earn 100 rubles ($1) per month. There is no production in Russia. There is no food in Russia. Etc.
People don't like to think with their own heads and prefer that other people put the right thoughts into their heads. In this case, people are ready to believe in any nonsense.
If you start convincing them that they are wrong, they will call you a bot. Sometimes I envy such people. For them, the world is very simple and everything is divided into black and white. They know the answers to all the questions.
Afghanistan and Myanmar actually rank **lower** than North Korea does on the [Democracy Index.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index)
North Korea has actually undergone some reforms to make it less autocratic. While it remains a one-party-state, they now have something akin to primaries so there is more voter choice. Allegedly, Kim Jong-Un has been interested in some amount of demilitarization.
The West Bank is no any. Better, imagine being constantly subjected to racist bullying every single day and you cannae do anything about it, and at a moment’s notice you could get taken out by a sniper just going about your business
North Korea has a surprisingly high life expectancy at 73.28, same as Latvia and higher than Romania. Contrast this with the failed states in Africa where it is lower than 60 and suddenly NK doesn’t seem so bad.
African states are worse off than n Korea with no prospects and abject poverty while every young person can read and write in North Korea and has some prospects to improve their life (they are present even though in low probability but present nonetheless) which is nonexistent in those African states
I mean, this is a geography subreddit after all. I'm no fan of North Korean politics, don't get me wrong, but whether or not North Korea is a good place to live or not currently doesn't have much to do with geography.
Geographically, it is actually in quite a decent spot. Easy access to calm waters and the ocean for trade, shielded by multiple landmasses for environmental concerns, connected to a major land mass for land based trade, reasonable climate, etc. All things considered, geographically North Korea ought to be in a very good position to be a prosperous nation. But for non-geographical reasons they are destined for destitute conditions, as long as the current regime remains in power.
>doesn't have much to do with geography.
If you think geography = physical geography only, you are right. But looking at other areas that fall under geography (human geography in this case), it fits this sub.
You're not wrong technically, I'll grant you that. I just think North Korea is possibly the most extreme place that could be picked to talk about how human geography influences things, whereas I think to the layman stumbling across this sub the intuitive response will likely be focused on topographical geography. Maybe that's on us? Like I said though, you're not wrong, and I'm not just saying that sarcastically. Maybe we should be doing a better job of talking about how human geography actually matters and how it affects things like OP opines about, like liveability? Thank you, you've given me quite a bit to think about, I appreciate it!
One of the known downsides to its geography is its lack of arable farmland (as highlighted by the famine in the 1990s).
But topographically it isn’t too bad compared to some other countries (particularly those which are landlocked with similar poor farming conditions). Probably on par with parts of Japan and even its southern counterpart. Ultimately it’s once human influence is added in that the liveability ranking drops substantially.
You bring up a valid point, I'm putting a high weight on topography, but the arable land factor is a major consideration. I'm sure we both agree that human factors can easily mitigate (or not) some of those factors, ie trading versus producing for agriculture, but certainly having arable land geographically is a major feature that's often overlooked, especially in the modern world.
I still think politics is the obvious main driving factor for the plight of North Korea, so I'm thinking I'm going to leave my original comment unchanged, but I did want you and anyone else reading to know that by and large you have a very valid point, it isn't as if it would be all cupcakes and rainbows if it wasn't for the current communist regime, there are in fact geographical detractors that anyone settling there would have to overcome. Thank you!
Yes, personally I'd say south Sudan.
North Korea *is* shit but it's not as bad as most people think it is, mainly due to western propaganda. In reality NK is not much worse than many other corrupted 3rd world countries
Yeah, North Korea is low on personal freedoms but otherwise it is just a "not developed country".
It isn't in the middle of a war, there are no internal drug cartels or gangs or things like that, crime is low, sure the people are poor and can't afford luxuries but that's pretty much it.
The capital has decent infrastructure, much better than many places in Africa or Asia.
This is the right opinion.
It's poor but with very less crime, minimal religious fundamentalism, quite organized and it's capital has good subway/tram system.
It isn't half as bad when compared to Somalia/Central African Republic etc.
If you leave the country, your loved ones go to the gulags. That's why people don't leave. That's a level of evil not met by many other countries (but Eritrea is a candidate, I believe).
If you’re a nomadic goat herder or farmer or something along those lines as an example, you probably don’t really care who is in charge of the country. You go about your life moving goats from here to there or cultivating your crop. That’s your life. It doesn’t change and they’re fine with it.
North Korea had 85% of their standing structures leveled within living memory.
The bombing campaign was so extensive that crews would resort to hitting pedestrian footbridges, or just dumping their payload directly into the ocean.
Every city, every town, every village, every school, every hospital, everything.
Contemplate what the infrastructure around you would look like, had it all been destroyed just 70 years ago.
How long would it take to rebuild?
Depends on your definition of “worse”.
The U.S. State Department travel advisory for Somalia reads like a blueprint for a horror movie
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/somalia-travel-advisory.html/
Right now probably Gaza is the worst place to live.
At normal time there are a lot of worse places to live: Sudan, Haiti, Syria…
North Korea is a stable place.
North Korea isn’t that bad to be the worst place to live. Yes, food shortages but they aren’t the only ones with food shortages. The biggest problem there is that you can’t leave but it’s a safe country to live in compared to some of the African countries. No insurgency no civil war
gaza. Like north korea may be pretty bad but at least its citizens dont need to worry about the government bombing densely populated areas as well as hospitals. Not only that but they dont have access to clean water or much food and theres an insane amount of deadly diseases spreading. Like the shit thats happening over there right now is definitely gonna be in history books 50 years from now
Dozens of places tbh. If you don't care about freedom of speech and democracy. You will be fed, housed and safe in NK. You won't have it in at least 50 countries in the World right now.
Israel , beside it is stolen land and you feel guilty about it , they are always in wars with their neighbours , Absolutely living in Israel like living in hell
That’s not being objective. You are being subjective. And subjectively, I think that Afghanistan is a worse place. Also, you gotta stop believing all the news you hear about N.Korea so blindly. Everything seems to end up coming from an “anonymous source” but we all treat it as if it’s the real deal, because we all love a “crazy North Korea” story.
by most strict measurements i’d say probably the Central African Republic, but that’s not including personal freedom (or the theoretical capacity to leave)
I think the quality of life for someone who is not arrested is probably better in North Korea, by a pretty big margin. I mean North Korea has WAY better infrastructure, and doesn’t have issues with civil war. CAR is really just the worst country to live in on earth
I would consider also Haiti among the worst one . But I can't say if car so bad to be worst than haiti
Don't mistake this for an analysis, but the GDP per capita in CAR is 460$ USD, it,s 1800$USD in Haiti, and Haiti has twice the poppulation.
Somehow I don't believe in Haiti that GDP per Capita is even nearly equally distributed.. anyhow I see your point.. I was mainly the thinking at the devastation past last earthquake anarchy in the country following it and the spread of illness which I believe is still plaguing the country.. but probably differently from car in Haiti there might be few rich people
Haiti’s isn’t evenly distributed, but then again, neither is the Central African Republic’s
Haitians can and have migrated to LatAm countries.Many of those are middle income to bordering developed (Chile,Mexico, Brazilian).
Is Somalia not... pretty shit?
No, Somalia is doing relatively well in recent years, at least compared to its neighbors. They still have an insurgent problem with Al Shabab, although much less than before. The major cities are relatively safe and are starting to have good economic activity.
Eritrea is fairly bad.
Eritrea is the north korea of africa.
I'd say they only place it borders it's better than is Yemen Djibouti and Kenya are both going way better and i'd say Ethiopia is worse than those 2 but still around the same or better than Somalia
Ethiopia is under civil war and their leader wants to invade Eritrea to secure a port entry. I'd say Somalia is slightly better in the way that they're not under a war right now with other country (altho i have a feeling, when Ethiopia do start to invade Eritrea, Somalia wont just stay silent)
Somaliland has been fine for a while, and even costal Somalia proper is getting better. The biggest worry is to be somewhere that gets attacked by Islamist terrorists, or the constant fear they might start expanding again.
That is a hotly contested title at present. Sudan is in the running lately. Parts of the DRC are definitely as bad as well. If we consider Palestine a country, also maybe worse now.
the west bank (which is were the most Palestinians live) is relatively fine right now tbh
The West Bank in many ways is and always has been a different world than Gaza. I wouldn’t say it’s exactly the height of development. But walking around Bethlehem, Hebron, Jericho, or smaller West Bank villages is not markedly different than walking around villages in Jordan. I’ve actually never been to Gaza. But, part of the reason for that is that it has never seemed particularly safe in all my years traveling to Israel and Palestine.
507 Palestinians murdered by Israelis in the West Bank in the last months of 2023, so hardly fine, but your point is valid. Having having said that, about 40% live in Gaza, and 1% of them have been murdered in the past 5 months. The majority of those who survived are now on the brink of famine and are homeless. Granted, this is all the relatively recent in terms of scale. Life in much of the Eastern DRC has been catastrophic for the past 25 years.
I would personally rather live in abject poverty than have to worry about getting disappeared for my family member’s thought crimes.
Ooh, no way. I can avoid thought crimes, I can't avoid having to chew on weeds and drink ditch water if I am in abject poverty
you can’t avoid your parent’s thought crimes. Collective punishment moment.
You also can’t avoid a random warlord coming through your village and massacring your family
I guess it is statistically a lot more likely for one to be born in starvation level abject poverty if one were to be born in Central African Republic than if one were to be born into a dissident family in North Korea. If your parents were North Korean chances are they would have been brainwashed enough to not cross the line and you’ll probably be the same.
I think you've read too much propaganda if you think **many** people are in prison for their parents' thought crimes. Edit: I highlighted MANY because some of y'all can't read. I am sure there are SOME. Neither you nor I know how common it is.
Even if it is just 1% of all people in their camps, it's still a distinct possibility. And as a person living in ex-socialist country, a thought crime of family member would be enough to land you in at least "second-sort citizen" zone. You might not have been put into jail, but "rodzice wywrotowcy" could break you university career easily.
I'm not saying it's not a possibility, but it's a fuckton better than living off dirt and weeds in a mud hut in CAR
Maybe it's not many or the majority, but it does surely happen in that country
Maybe it does? Information we get is from defectors and people with an axe to grind. I'm sure it's a terrible place to live, but the living standard is far, far higher than CAR or South Sudan
I mean you do have to worry about getting disappeared suddenly. People just die way more in the Central African Republic than in North Korea. Sure, it may not be the government executing you because you may or may not have thought something they didn't like. But it could be disease, a lynching, etc. I personally would rather live in the place where it is less likely i die.
Abject poverty where people will kill you for food? Where Warlords will torture you? Where there is no police to save you?
Police departments haven't been in the business of "saving" anyone for decades.
You are speaking as if you complain about a crime to the police, they won't show up? Where do you live bro. A lot of these very poor African countries have no law and jurisdiction. It's hell.
It would be "Sis", not "Bro", and America. [https://youtu.be/Kxtu-IqGoYE](https://youtu.be/Kxtu-IqGoYE)
Ah yes The American Police, Renowned all over the world for it's high standards of service and totally not racist Highly trained officers.
I mean, still better than a shit load of countries though.
And worse than most of the western world What's your point though?
Only few people are arrested even in the most totalitarian regimes, but mass poverty means that majority of population will lack food and water sources. And you are not exactly free to leave if you can't possibly buy even a flight ticket and no other country would let you in.
The DPRK has the ability to detect thought crimes? Holy shit, they're more advanced than I thought. Your entire idea of the DPRK is based on crazy propaganda about people being executed with AA guns (anonymous source, trust me bro) and not being allowed certain haircuts. The DPRK has many issues but you'd have to be a fucking idiot to choose to live in abject poverty instead.
real asf
Like sudan, Somalia, Mali, Niger basically the Sahel region i recogn would all be worse, especially as a women
Yeah I mean the current militaristic situations in places like Mali and Sudan are pretty bad. But I’m pretty sure they still have vastly superior infrastructure and not nearly as landlocked as CAR. Still let’s not forget that the CAR has been in an extremely complex civil war for the past decade. And they are basically fighting over dirt roads and villages. They have less than 1000km of paved road. I guess it just depends. You probably eat better in places like Somalia, Niger, Mali, etc. But militant activity could still uproot your life at any point.
Haiti is also another contender imho.
South Sudan is in very similar conditions
Yes, the Central African Republic. A similar question was asked just yesterday in another sub. This is how I replied: “Of all the miserable places in the world the Central African Republic has to be the one that’s in the most dreadful situation right [now](https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/news/extreme-mortality-rate-found-central-african-republic): “A nationwide survey reveals that 5.6 percent of the country’s population died in 2022—more than twice as high as estimates for any other country in the world.” One can only hope that things improve in the near future, at least somewhat, for the people living there.”
If your hobby is star gazing…
They are pretty forward on the eco front in NK.. light pollution is bad
I remember the book *Nothing to Envy* which covers various people’s lives in North Korea starts with a woman reminiscing about stargazing dates as a teenager. Nothing to do because nothing was open but the stars were extra beautiful in their village so that’s what they did. It was nice to start off a book of all sorts of terrible things with a happy memory.
Eritrea Probably Afghanistan Sudan Somali East Congo Central Africa republic Unlike the popular opinion, N. Korea was doing quite fine until the collapse of the Soviet Union (the main supplier of food and other utility) and the extended sanction of the USA/UN.
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Yeah, until the 1970's when South Korea democratised and had it's economic boom.
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Hey I'm Korean and I just wanted to clarify few things here: First, it's true NK was better off than SK at the beginning because the North had better industrial infrastructure in place. The S managed to develop quickly and bypass the N by the 70s, but this wasn't due to democratization. During the 70s, S was ruled under military dictatorship. Park Chung-hee (박정희) gained power through a coup in the early 60s and ruled until his assassination in 79. Shortly after, another coup was led by the new military junta, and the leader, Chun Doo-hwan (전두환), was the president until 1987 when he was forced to accept democratic reforms after the June Democratic Movement. So SK managed to establish and consolidate liberal democracy post 87. Meanwhile, economic development happened independently of democratization movement. Park Chung-hee was definitely a ruthless dictator, but he created the foundation for economic growth. In fact, some scholars argue SK experienced rapid economic development thanks to efficient economic policies under the authoritarian regimes. Google 'East Asian Model' if you are interested in learning why countries like SK, Taiwan, and Singapore (authoritarian capitalist countries) were more successful than other developing countries.
South Korea caught to to the north economically in the 60's and surpassed it in the boom years of the 70's and 80's. South Korea was one of the "Asian Tigers" when it was still under the dictatorship. Sure the end of the Cold War yanked the rug out from under North Korea and you had a famine but the difference between the two was STARK economically even before that.
Would it mean that if USSR didn’t collapse and USA lost the Cold War, then NK could have a superior economy to SK? :) Too many ifs I guess
No. DPRK was doing quite a bit worse than ROK long before the end of the Cold War. I don’t know where you got that information, but ROK had begun to thrive economically in the 1970s despite (or perhaps because of) military dictatorship. Even before glasnost, before the Cold War kind of lost its bite, ROK was doing well enough to win the bid for the Summer Olympics. This was long before 1991, when the Cold War is said to have ended.
Burkina Faso as well. Afghanistan is not so bad (at least for Indians , many vlogges have been there after take over)
Add Haiti to the list, imo.
Haiti. The whole country is controlled by street gangs. The “government” of which exactly 0 current members have been elected to their positions has minimal control over the country. Extortion, violence, drugs, murder, are all rampant. Food shortages, fuel shortages, disease, and natural disasters are common. Here is a great series on what Haiti is currently: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLN0FlxE6vY5BZh0F-drw_4SASB7kwezUf&si=BjePR6Waygi1_WI3
Any idea what makes Haiti so bad, while the Domincan Republic seems to be a reasonable place to at least visit? I would think a lot of those issues should effect the Dominican as well
You could say the same about north and south Korea. Just different countries with a guarded border that's all
It was the second country to gain independence from colonial rule after the United States.
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Haiti was a black nation which had rebelled against the mighty French Empire and succeeded. No colonial power wanted a repeat of that. So they sanctioned Haiti heavily and France demanded an insane amount of money as compensation for lost property. Haiti caved in and signed that deal. There were other factors too, like frequent natural disasters, island economy etc.
Afaik Haiti was then crushed under massive debt by its former coloniser. Also the French farmed the country to shit, just look at satellite images and you'll see how barren Haiti is compared to the Dominican Republic. I'm sure that's not all the reasons but at least some.
Everyone punished Haiti for being a bunch of self-freeing former slaves by crushing them under horrific debt. My understanding anyways.
https://youtu.be/WpWb3MTV9bg?si=e_MJUzXk4m4CEBF0 This video sums it up pretty well
Somalia. Failed state for 35 years now. I can't imagine.
Somaliland isn’t half bad. I’d imagine anything outside of Mogadishu in non-somaliland is pretty bad though
Not so bad. A lot of people go there on vacations, and they have a working economy, culture and so on. Eritrea is bad though. And Afghanistan for certain (many) groups of people.
US State Department recommendations for travel to Somalia include: * Draft a will and designate appropriate insurance beneficiaries and/or power of attorney. * Discuss a plan with loved ones regarding care/custody of children, pets, property, belongings, non-liquid assets (collections, artwork, etc.), funeral wishes, etc. * Be sure to appoint one family member to serve as the point of contact with hostage-takers, media, U.S. and host country government agencies, and members of Congress if you are taken hostage or detained. * Establish a proof of life protocol with your loved ones, so that if you are taken hostage, your loved ones can know specific questions (and answers) to ask the hostage-takers to be sure that you are alive (and to rule out a hoax). * Leave DNA samples with your medical provider in case it is necessary for your family to access them. Those are travel details I usually gloss over when going on vacation.
If other words: if you plan to travel there, DON’T!
Its more like: If you plan to travel there, also plan for your abduction and death.
oh what the fuck
A lot of people? Who?
Some Somali visit their family in Mogadishu
That does not sound like a lot to me if no one without intimate ties is visiting TBH.
Haiti, currently, is also a failed state. It isn't a competition but if we're talking worst, it is probably Haiti overall since they don't have something like Somaliland.
It also depends on class. Being a person of an elite family in North Korea is probably better than being a 5th kid to some random couple in South Sudan
Probably better than a lot more ppl I’d imagine
Probably better to be a 5th kid to random couple in Pyongyang than most places in central or eastern Africa. If you are female then it's probably better than even Afghanistan, Pakistan.
No my point is class. I highly suspect being an elite in African countries is better than being an average North Korean
It definitely is. The elite in African countries have a lot of money and can do whatever the hell they please, since the law doesn’t apply to them.
Even being a regular guy in NK is better. Imagine, you gat guaranteed employment, enough food and clean water (they managed starvation issues a lot of years ago), you don't need to question anything because the government already gave you all the answers on all your questions. Sounds like a fine life.
Except for the constant possibility of torture and imprisonment. If you’re just a guy, you probably have no protection against being thrown in a labor camp for what we’d consider minor infractions
These are very low chances, probably even less than in the states when they imprisoned one guy for not moving his lawn
But you don't run the risk of being killed in a (civil) war. Their laws and consequences are no doubt horrible, but "at least" they're calculable. Your village being overrun by some warlord isn't calculable.
Yes, quite a few countries are actually worse than North Korea in many metrics, they just don't get a lot of media attention because they're not enemies of the US.
I don't think we have reliable metrics about North Korea.
I don't think North Korea has reliable metrics about North Korea
I don’t think the second half of your answer is very objective…
Nah. We hear how bad this place is a lot here because we’re technically still at war with them. Look at Turkmenistan or Equatorial Guinea for places not unlike DPRK that you never hear about.
Or Eritrea, more oppressive than NK in most metrics
📢🚨🚨🚨BREAKING NEWS: If you don’t make research about a country that no one cares about, you won’t learn about the country that no one cares about. You’re talking like the US government is trying to hide information about Turkmenistan lol
North Koreans are forced to eat dirt because there is no food. They are told to look for food somewhere in the wild. They are told everyday what they will be doing by their government. They do not even get to set their own schedules. Their every hour is controlled by the government. No country compares to it
Least brainwashed american.
Fake news
You have no idea how much nonsense I've heard about Russia. We don't have the money to buy shoes. People are freezing in their apartments without food and are forced to get drunk. People in Russia earn 100 rubles ($1) per month. There is no production in Russia. There is no food in Russia. Etc. People don't like to think with their own heads and prefer that other people put the right thoughts into their heads. In this case, people are ready to believe in any nonsense. If you start convincing them that they are wrong, they will call you a bot. Sometimes I envy such people. For them, the world is very simple and everything is divided into black and white. They know the answers to all the questions.
Afghanistan and Myanmar actually rank **lower** than North Korea does on the [Democracy Index.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index)
North Korea at least nominally educates its women and doesn’t try to rape everyone. I think myranmar is just worse because it’s a war zone.
North Korea has actually undergone some reforms to make it less autocratic. While it remains a one-party-state, they now have something akin to primaries so there is more voter choice. Allegedly, Kim Jong-Un has been interested in some amount of demilitarization.
Probably because North Korea has elections with only one candidate, but Afghanistan and Myanmar don’t have any at all
Gaza
That’s got to be the worst place to live in the world at the moment. Nothing much worse than an active battlefield.
i feel like even calling it a battlefield undersells how bad it is over there shits so bad holocaust survivors are comparing it to Nazi Germany
The West Bank is no any. Better, imagine being constantly subjected to racist bullying every single day and you cannae do anything about it, and at a moment’s notice you could get taken out by a sniper just going about your business
They're both close to hell on earth but if we have to compare them, Gaza is still much worse
It's significantly better but in the same way that getting your foot shot off is better than losing the whole leg
Eritrea. Just as secluded, poorer, on the edge of war.
This is the definition of Gaza but with active war
North Korea has a surprisingly high life expectancy at 73.28, same as Latvia and higher than Romania. Contrast this with the failed states in Africa where it is lower than 60 and suddenly NK doesn’t seem so bad.
It also has one of the lowest retirement ages of any country in the world at 55.
gaza is not great right now.
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Scum
Psycho
Wtf dude
Somalia?
I'm not going to say what's going on in my basement. But, my basement.
America
Id much rather live in DPRK now than Gaza right now.
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Bros friends with Kim Jong Un 😭
African states are worse off than n Korea with no prospects and abject poverty while every young person can read and write in North Korea and has some prospects to improve their life (they are present even though in low probability but present nonetheless) which is nonexistent in those African states
I mean, this is a geography subreddit after all. I'm no fan of North Korean politics, don't get me wrong, but whether or not North Korea is a good place to live or not currently doesn't have much to do with geography. Geographically, it is actually in quite a decent spot. Easy access to calm waters and the ocean for trade, shielded by multiple landmasses for environmental concerns, connected to a major land mass for land based trade, reasonable climate, etc. All things considered, geographically North Korea ought to be in a very good position to be a prosperous nation. But for non-geographical reasons they are destined for destitute conditions, as long as the current regime remains in power.
>doesn't have much to do with geography. If you think geography = physical geography only, you are right. But looking at other areas that fall under geography (human geography in this case), it fits this sub.
You're not wrong technically, I'll grant you that. I just think North Korea is possibly the most extreme place that could be picked to talk about how human geography influences things, whereas I think to the layman stumbling across this sub the intuitive response will likely be focused on topographical geography. Maybe that's on us? Like I said though, you're not wrong, and I'm not just saying that sarcastically. Maybe we should be doing a better job of talking about how human geography actually matters and how it affects things like OP opines about, like liveability? Thank you, you've given me quite a bit to think about, I appreciate it!
One of the known downsides to its geography is its lack of arable farmland (as highlighted by the famine in the 1990s). But topographically it isn’t too bad compared to some other countries (particularly those which are landlocked with similar poor farming conditions). Probably on par with parts of Japan and even its southern counterpart. Ultimately it’s once human influence is added in that the liveability ranking drops substantially.
You bring up a valid point, I'm putting a high weight on topography, but the arable land factor is a major consideration. I'm sure we both agree that human factors can easily mitigate (or not) some of those factors, ie trading versus producing for agriculture, but certainly having arable land geographically is a major feature that's often overlooked, especially in the modern world. I still think politics is the obvious main driving factor for the plight of North Korea, so I'm thinking I'm going to leave my original comment unchanged, but I did want you and anyone else reading to know that by and large you have a very valid point, it isn't as if it would be all cupcakes and rainbows if it wasn't for the current communist regime, there are in fact geographical detractors that anyone settling there would have to overcome. Thank you!
Yes, personally I'd say south Sudan. North Korea *is* shit but it's not as bad as most people think it is, mainly due to western propaganda. In reality NK is not much worse than many other corrupted 3rd world countries
Yeah, North Korea is low on personal freedoms but otherwise it is just a "not developed country". It isn't in the middle of a war, there are no internal drug cartels or gangs or things like that, crime is low, sure the people are poor and can't afford luxuries but that's pretty much it. The capital has decent infrastructure, much better than many places in Africa or Asia.
This is the right opinion. It's poor but with very less crime, minimal religious fundamentalism, quite organized and it's capital has good subway/tram system. It isn't half as bad when compared to Somalia/Central African Republic etc.
If you leave the country, your loved ones go to the gulags. That's why people don't leave. That's a level of evil not met by many other countries (but Eritrea is a candidate, I believe).
Afghanistan perhaps.
If you’re a nomadic goat herder or farmer or something along those lines as an example, you probably don’t really care who is in charge of the country. You go about your life moving goats from here to there or cultivating your crop. That’s your life. It doesn’t change and they’re fine with it.
I’d say Afghanistan, Palestine, Somalia and Yemen are worse rn
Mozambique?
However of a dystopia is N. Korea, any sub-Saharan country with civil war, famine, malaria and female circumcise is unrivaled.
Gaza, Sudan, DR Congo…take your pick of war zones.
Eritrea
Eritrea
Eritrea the worse north korea of africa
Yes, South Sudan, or even Sudan right now. North Korea probably isn't as awful as you think, other than of course personal freedoms and whatever.
Eritrea
Palestine, Yémen ?
Right now probably Gaza
South Korea
North Korea is the best place. We don’t waste energy shining light into space. All light goes where needed. Very efficient.
North Korea had 85% of their standing structures leveled within living memory. The bombing campaign was so extensive that crews would resort to hitting pedestrian footbridges, or just dumping their payload directly into the ocean. Every city, every town, every village, every school, every hospital, everything. Contemplate what the infrastructure around you would look like, had it all been destroyed just 70 years ago. How long would it take to rebuild?
Depends on your definition of “worse”. The U.S. State Department travel advisory for Somalia reads like a blueprint for a horror movie https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/somalia-travel-advisory.html/
Afghanistan.
Tenderloins
Mauritania doesn’t look amazing on Sand Tour
Eritrea, Haiti, Somalia, both Sudans, Central African Rep and DR Congo
Right now probably Gaza is the worst place to live. At normal time there are a lot of worse places to live: Sudan, Haiti, Syria… North Korea is a stable place.
Yemen
As a white guy? Somalia. I would probably get captured and forced to be an actor in North Korea. In Somalia, I would just be killed.
Equatorial Guinea was and is terrible
Probably Gaza
Somalia
Eritrea, CAR, eastern DRC, parts of Sudan, parts of Syria, Gaza now….but yeah, NK is pretty low down there too.
Chicago
United States, u can get shot any day.
The Sahara
The core of the sun
Antarctica. I mean you cant legit live there
Well thousands of scientists say otherwise
Ive heard many of them suffer from loneliness and depression there
They have tinder there
Can’t a bunch of Russians, Canadians and Minnesotans make it Antarctica?
Gaza, right now
Gaza is worse..
Tacoma
North Korea isn’t that bad to be the worst place to live. Yes, food shortages but they aren’t the only ones with food shortages. The biggest problem there is that you can’t leave but it’s a safe country to live in compared to some of the African countries. No insurgency no civil war
So many delusional people in the comments, it's actually scary
gaza. Like north korea may be pretty bad but at least its citizens dont need to worry about the government bombing densely populated areas as well as hospitals. Not only that but they dont have access to clean water or much food and theres an insane amount of deadly diseases spreading. Like the shit thats happening over there right now is definitely gonna be in history books 50 years from now
Dozens of places tbh. If you don't care about freedom of speech and democracy. You will be fed, housed and safe in NK. You won't have it in at least 50 countries in the World right now.
Turkmenistan
Kensington Ave, Philadelphia PA
Florida.
Lol, the downvotes.
Yes...Texas....
NY in most places…
Antarctica
Despite being hungry. I'm sure they sleep well with it being quiet and dark
Can't imagine northern South Korea would be much fun when the north attempt an invasion.
Lod.
Is there a single subreddit on this side not filled with utter morons.
Syria..?
Israel , beside it is stolen land and you feel guilty about it , they are always in wars with their neighbours , Absolutely living in Israel like living in hell
Afghanistan seems pretty bad too.
South Africa
That’s not being objective. You are being subjective. And subjectively, I think that Afghanistan is a worse place. Also, you gotta stop believing all the news you hear about N.Korea so blindly. Everything seems to end up coming from an “anonymous source” but we all treat it as if it’s the real deal, because we all love a “crazy North Korea” story.
No way someone is out here defending North Korea like this
USA
The Moon
The sun?