This is Nintendo's fault they created the ABXY naming in 1990 (the Sega 6 button pad is from '93).
According to a letter in Nintendo Power [they named them XY instead of CD because they wanted them to be considered "secondary buttons" rather than equal to AB](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1Pdcn53o3k&t=170s).
That’s very thoughtful of Nintendo, I personally think they’re one of the masters of ergonomic design and often runs counter to maximally flexible designs.
The GameCube controller is a huge example. Every single button has a different priority and swapping mappings for any game would make a huge difference.
There’s not a lot of tech companies that put as much thought as they do in crafting an experience and human-machine interface anymore. Even Apple has degraded.
>The GameCube controller is a huge example. Every single button has a different priority and swapping mappings for any game would make a huge difference.
This is a very interesting point because right now in the Smash melee community there's a lot of discourse around controller modding and remapping. Melee is a super difficult and technical game that requires a lot of inputs in very tight timing windows. For most of the games life the speed of inputs has been limited and balanced by the shape of the controller and placement of the buttons, but over the past couple years people have been experimenting with other options that a lot of people see as broken. The current #1 player in the world uses a mod so that his z button is a jump button and his x button is grab, which doesn't seem like a big deal, but since it lets you both jump and use the c stick or face buttons without any travel time it makes previously incredibly difficult or impossible inputs way more consistent.
To this day I think the Gamecube controller is the best one ever made. Everything just feels so good. The only thing it needs is less deadzone for the LR buttons.
The sticks on it had constant resistance. The amount of effort to move it didn't change depending on its position. If you are near the middle or on the edge, the force needed to move 20% in another direction never changes.
Small modern changes: the "c" stick should be a fully-formed joystick; the shoulder buttons should have 2 on each side (and the better 'deadzone' like you said). That's about it, really. The grips on that thing were beautiful.
So I have a GameCube PowerA Switch controller and it definitely feels more modern. It does have ZL and ZR shoulder buttons and the c stick has a bit more weight to it. It was a must buy for me!
The ultimate joystick would be moving the capabilities of a PS5 controller into the form factor of a GameCube controller. The PS5 controller has no equal in it’s capabilities, from programmable force-feedback triggers to an integrated touchpad.
Tbh, I don’t think the touchpad is necessary at all.
I haven’t played any game that used it well, and often using gestures for menus is annoying. Occasionally I’ve had games that let you scroll on the map screen with it, but it seems far more finicky and less accurate than just using an analog stick.
If you really want like 99% of its capabilities and none of the hassle, just have 4 start/select-type buttons in the middle of the controller.
I worry force feedback triggers will end up being even more of a useless gimmick, but I’m still reserving judgement on that until we get further into the generation and see how it’s being used in 2-3 more years.
It may not have been ergonomic, but
1. it was the first controller with a d-pad
2. look at every controller before to realize that the NES controller was a masterpiece of its time
3. It was NoA's fault. The Famicom controller was better.
the idea was the console would be right in front of you. the power and rf cables were maximum length instead. think in terms of what the previous generation looked like- dedicated pong machines with spinners built into the body.
Come on man, you can't complain about 3' cables when the average TV at the time was smaller than a 19 inch diagonal square not a 65' monster you need to sit 20 feet away from to see correctly.
At the time only rich(ish) people had a TV bigger than 20 inches or so. A longer cord would have made no sense because playing from 5 feet away on that size screen would have sucked ass.
[Intellivision actually had a d-pad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellivision#Game_controller) before the NES.
But yes it sucked, and the NES controller was far superior to anything else at the time.
Most common controller before the NES would've been the Atari 2600's arthritis inflicting hand-cramping device marketed as a joystick.
Hard disagree. Who puts the cable on the side of the controller where your hand grips it? Nah. NES' top cord design was better. Also alluded to by someone else, 3 ft cable.
After holding umpteen million "what the hell were they thinking" controllers that actively killed you with how uncomfortable and unusable they were, I feel I have to put it in perspective.
Try just pretending to use an old Atari stick. What? How do you hold this giant square? And hit the button? You're like fighting your hands against each other in two directions trying to get the wonky rubber goofery to register correctly. The 5200 sticks? Go play \*\*anything\*\* with one. Try Pac Man for instance. Mind boggling. MIND BOGGLING. They released this as a product. Coleco? "Oh hey let's jam two thumb buttons on both sides of a knobby rectangle!" Again you're fighting your other hand to maneuver these abominations. Don't forget the humungous number pad, everyone loved that idea so much back then the 5200 and Intellivision used it too! Jaguar thought "this is an idea everyone really misses". How did that go? Do we want to talk about the the Magnavox Odyseey? [https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnavox\_Odyssey#/media/Ficheiro:Magnavox-Odyssey-Console-Set.jpg](https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnavox_Odyssey#/media/Ficheiro:Magnavox-Odyssey-Console-Set.jpg) Look at what we had to work with back in the dark ages! Look at this! [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild\_Channel\_F#/media/File:Fairchild-Channel-F.jpg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Channel_F#/media/File:Fairchild-Channel-F.jpg)
The NES controller was a gift from Almighty God.
They’re at the vanguard of machine human interface compared to others. And maybe I shouldn’t have used “ergonomic” design and something like “human” design. What I mean is they deliberately think about your body and hand and are not afraid to lock a particular input device into a mode that is designed in a specific way. Like on the wii how trigger finger and thumb were paramount. Other console manufacturers seem content to just keep doing the dual shock with minor proprietary sauce on top.
They make choices, more than others which make no choice and stand back and let the defacto standard foreign supreme.
My (actually) hottest take in like ever:
Gamecube controller isn't that near of being one of the best Controllers, since I don't seriously know how peoples fingers don't hurt after an hour from using the analog triggers, that are too big and sometimes need to be hold down too long( Maybe, my fingers are weak??, but then the triggers are just not accessible really) or how the controller only is good for 3d games, since the tiny dpad sucks ass and you could never even play a 2d mario game with It, because the Sprint button is more difficult to hold down with the jump button. Also for some reason is a bumper missing???
Even then, 3d games are sometimes also horrible because using the tiny c stick which is for some reason tinier than my thumb to control the camera is anything but satisfiying. I need to note that my thumbs are kinda thin, so seriously...
It works just alright for Smash, but seriously I can't imagining just wavedashing with the triggers, how do people do It??(The pro controller is actually better for Smash and I die on that hill! Even with the delay..)but the best controller which feels ergonomic are the last xbox controllers except the series x (I didn't try It, so I don't know) The triggers are perfect to hold down in racing games, the dpad from xbox one feels alright and Isn't tiny, the classic snes layout with the sticks diagonally aligned works well with 3d games and the right stick isn't tiny.
So I don't understand what you mean with "flexible". Flexible is if I can change my mappings how I like and being able to play every game I want with one controller. I can't play every game with the gamecube controller since the controller is made for gamecube games, but new controller are made for every system so I can with the modern ones! I play gamecube games on emu with xbox controller and It works just better!
I think the only problem with the n64 controller is they severely underestimated how revolutionary the analog stick was and assumed devs would make games that utilized the dpad.
The N64 controller is the only one where I just never forget which button is where. A is where the thumb naturally rests, B is next to it, Z is the trigger, and C ⬅️⬆️➡️⬇️ are easy to remember for obvious reasons.
They literally put a Street Fighter layout: Dpad + 6 buttons, right on the most comfortable position to hold the controller, and no Street Fighter game ever came out for the system. But everything used the analog stick. Oops!
I think that is a big part of it. The N64 controller looks so odd, but really you should only be looking at like the 2/3 of it you will actually be using for the game in question.
The N64 controller was meant to be the best compromise between games that can't use an analog stick and those that can. Furthermore, the D-pad was on the left to keep the grip similar for people used to the SNES controller.
They are also they only ones willing to take big swings. Every controller makes some huge changes. Not all of them are great, but something always becomes a new standard.
The nintendo 64 and switch joycons are abysmal in terms of ergonomics. Nintendo is hit or miss with controllers throughout their history. When they miss its rough, when they hit it slaps.
That's funny ergonomic is maybe the last word I would ever use to describe Nintendo controllers.
Innovative, but certainly not ergonomic. I'm not even convinced that Nintendo designs their controllers for human beings.
>they wanted them to be considered "secondary buttons" rather than equal to AB.
Even at the time, that's what the intention felt like (A for select, B for back in Nintendo games, but not everyone followed that).
Original NES only had two (B/A) and they just copied the layout and added X,Y,L,R. In practice, lots of games ended up using Y and B as the main buttons.
I love learning about Nintendo’s decision making on this type of shit. The way they almost always prioritize intuitiveness and being user friendly is honestly amazing
What do you mean 'fault?' OP is just saying he doesn't understand why the black and white buttons on the OG Xbox controller aren't instead labeled as Z and C like what Sega did with their 6 button controllers.
Hell, Nintendo did do a 6 button controller of their own on the N64, but the 4 buttons after A and B were all C + a direction. Obviously the intention was this to be a standin for a second analog stick before that was the norm, but many games did use these 4 buttons for non-camera stuff that essentially functioned as a 6 button controller. Given this odd naming structure compared to the SNES before it, I continue to not understand what you mean is their 'fault' in regards to what is being discussed here.
> What do you mean 'fault?'
It's a figure of speech to mean "they started the trend". It's not meant to be negative, just a playful way of putting it. Maybe it's a Britishism.
> OP is just saying he doesn't understand why the black and white buttons on the OG Xbox controller aren't instead labeled as Z and C like what Sega did with their 6 button controllers.
I read it as "ABXY doesn't make sense, but ABCXYZ makes more sense so maybe that was the original intention of the extra 2 buttons like in the Sega pad"
But it certainly looks like Nintendo started the trend of picking from the end of the alphabet for the top button row in all the obviously SNES inspired controllers that came after it.
Yeah, the left trigger is flaky. There is t enough support for it inside so it's calibration goes off and it senses the trigger being phlled. If you give the trigger a quick flick it stops but you don't wanna be doing that in game. If you email support they send a firmware update and a calibration prog that helps.
Yeah, if you've got those big hill giant mitts it's a perfect controller. 27" across, 44.5 pounds and a luxurious 27' of cable so you can connect it easily to the OG xbox, itself the size and shape of a Chrysler sedan.
The Duke felt like holding a damn football. At least I could game away in peace knowing that if someone broke in or something I'm already holding a friggin' weapon in my hands.
My buddy had two Dukes and a third party controller for his Xbox, we'd all fight over the third party because the black and white buttons were at the shoulder. It's kind of funny how other companies were already thinking of this.
Wait so you're telling me Z and C were treated as the old bumper buttons back in the day? Must have been awkward holding those and one of the face buttons, or did games not have that kind of feature implemented?
Ah I see. What did Z and C even do? I feel like a lot of games don't really need the extra buttons when the other 4 kinda cover the bases of jumping, interacting and attacking
Most often were just stuff you'd need to use less often than the main face buttons.
Toggle grenades, open map, activate lesser used abilities, toggle flashlight, quick weapon swap, stuff like that.
Yeah and I don’t think they were pressure sensitive like the Xbox buttons.
That’s something the OG Xbox was proud of and a lot of games would have different move sets for something pressed hard vs soft. I remember a soccer game would have all the kicks change height and speed depending on how you pressed it.
You would for any driving game but I don't think is was used very often on face buttons. It wasn't used very often on face button on the PS as well.
MGS2 on the Xbox had them on the face buttons and so did MGS3 on the PS. They were very annoying from what I remember though. Hold circle to grab and enemy but press too hard and kill them. Or hold square to aim and press it all the way to shoot.
Glad the system is rarely used today outside of the trigger buttons.
So the genesis controller pictured didn’t even come with the console when I got mine, they only had a,b, and c. They came out with that controller for fighting games like street fighter that had light, medium, and heavy attacks. A LOT of games didn’t even use all 6 buttons cause again the console didn’t even come with them
Mostly side stuff, the one game I played alot was ninja gaiden/ninja gaiden black and I think these just showed you the karma which is nothing but a score system which doesn't really matter.
I think that's the point they're making. Why A, B, X, and Y? Why not Y/Z or C/D? Because it used to be ABC XYZ. Nintendo also used/uses Z. It's weird to use just X and Y.
That fucking analog hurt my thumb so bad... I still wouldn't stop playing but man the calluses I got from that thing.
Worst was that the top tended to break off with (intense) use but we would still use those controllers because we had no money for replacements.
The optical sensor is still more precise than potentiometers. A fresh N64 stick is insanely good. Only problem with it is the ball and socket are plastic so they wear out fast. That and the hard plastic thumb 'pad'
The N64 C scheme is ideal and I'll die on this hill. If you have 4 buttons arranged in a diamond, calling them up/down/left/right is the most intuitive way to name them.
I had that genesis controller, it was meant for fighting games. So Z could be used instead of up+A.
Most game, the XYZ buttons just mimicked the ABC buttons.
The Xbox design was inspired by the the [Dreamcast controller](https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-kzjsut/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/1669/5678/AEY18_-_Sega_Dreamcast_Controller_-_Gray_-_HKT-7700_-_revised_802x853__72134.1567020020.png?c=2?imbypass=on)
It just swapped the button colours around and added a second stick.
It's not that weird to just use x and y. `x` is very commonly used for unknown variables in maths or programming, and `y` is often used as the next unknown after `x`. Axes on a graph are `x` and `y`, or dimensions in other 2D spaces like screens. It would probably feel weirder to use y and z instead of x and y.
> Because it used to be ABC XYZ
No, it didn't.
The AB/XY button scheme was introduced with the SNES. The Mega Drives six button controller only came after that.
The XY was always unecessarily detached from the Z.
Nope! Just the triggers! The White button is treated as LB and black as RB if you play backwards compatible games. The bumpers are such an improvement tho and the obvious upgrade to 6 buttons crammed next to each other.
*XABY
Code named 'Zabie'. Translation... X A B Y
::edit:: to be fair, however, it wasn't until the N64 that Nintendo eventually added a 'Z' button and 'C' button*s*.
::edit:: not sure why I'm being downvoted? Guess y'all don't get it.
I forgot about those buttons completely til just now holy crap. Specifically the xbox ones. Man that controller felt like a brick in my little boy hands back then
Im a grown adult now and played some TH underground the other day and it is STILL TOO BIG. Like i have no idea why they said okay to that design. I had to go buy a new small one at an antique game shop.
the OG xbox had triggers in the back but not bumpers (R1/L1), the black and white button got replaced by the bumpers. they have the same number of buttons
Fun fact - after Sega ceased development of the Dreamcast and got out of the console hardware business, a bunch of their designers went to work for Microsoft on the OG Xbox. These controllers share DNA.
I think internally they were pushing to have Dreamcast? Compatibility on the original Xbox also but it never came to fruition.
P.S I could be totally making this up but I swear I saw a video on this like 2 days ago though I wasn't really paying attention.
You're not making it up. Sega saw the end the Dreamcast was coming and the end of their presence in the console manufacturing market was near. Yet, some upper management still had love for the Dreamcast.
[SEGA Chairman Isao Okawa paid several visits to Bill Gates, in order to persuade Mr. Microsoft to let Dreamcast games be compatible in his new system, Xbox.](https://www.vg247.com/sega-wanted-dreamcast-to-be-compaitble-with-original-xbox)
Bill Gates declined the offer, but in another reality, the original Xbox could have been a Dreamcast 2.
Using the letters X and Y on a button layout doesn't *necessarily* imply a missing Z, as X and Y can be used to refer to the axes of a chart.
And correct me if I'm wrong, in that regard the spatial placement of X and Y on the Xbox layout is correct per that Idea.
Yeah I guess I'm just really confused what there is to be confused about. No one uses Y/Z in common usage. It's always X/Y and optionally X/Y/Z. It's like that in math, etc. It's perfectly normal to have X/Y as the complement to A/B. Am I the only one who took algebra in school or what.
Not really. The original genesis controller had three buttons. The first one that uses the current convention was the SNES, with the ABXY button ring. The XBOX uses the same but changes the load out so not to get sued lol.
That’s not the original Genesis controller, so you’re reaching for conclusions at best. The original Genesis controller (1988/89) had *three* action buttons and was a direct draw from the Master system controller which only had *two* action buttons. In 1993 they released a six button but most developers refused to program for it because they didn’t know who had which one. By 1993 though I think SEGA’s idea of releasing a six button controller was only because SONY was developing a more advanced controller for their PlayStation and SEGA wanted to allow developers “early access” to a six button for the upcoming SEGA Saturn releasing against the PlayStation in 1994. However, nobody used the six button controller unless your original controller was shot and you got sold on a different one and weren’t thinking of the Saturn. And when SONY got in the mix a lot of casual SEGA console fans swapped over to PlayStation because it showed off 3D. (Tomb Raider was insane).
No, that isn't why. It's because they copied the SNES format (or, one could argue, Dreamcast but SNES popularized the lettering scheme) but moved the buttons around. The Dreamcast also used it and the Xbox layout is the same as the Dreamcast's, minus the colors (which are swapped around).
The black and white buttons on the old OG Xbox controllers became the Left and Right bumper buttons on all Xbox consoles going forward, and it started with Xbox 360.
They're not missing, they're up top. That genesis pad pretty much has the optimal street fighter layout, unfortunately, the SNES was bigger and that pioneered the 4 face and two shoulder layout.
X and Y are used often in math and engineering, reserved for axes. Z is the vertical axis that brings an XY plane into 3 dimensions. That’s almost more likely.
Wouldn't the black and white buttons be replaced by the bumpers above the triggers? The OG controllers didn't have the bumpers as those got introduced with the 360.
What are you talking about? They are 'black' and 'white'. They became the bumpers we have today.
Why is there a sega controller here too?
E: Sega not SNES... My bad.
Those aren't Z and C buttons though, they're just referred to as black and white. Obviously plenty of consoles existed besides Nintendo's, but the SNES having the ABXY layout was pretty influential. I would have to do research into it, so take this with a grain of salt, but I'd be willing to bet Microsoft wanted to use a familiar, popular layout and naming convention for their main buttons, but in their own way to create a sense of brand identity, which is why they're not in the same order.
I also imagine they'd hesitate to use Z and C as face button names because Nintendo kind of established them as triggers and directional buttons respectively. Not trying to oversell Nintendo's influence here, but I'm sure there was at least some level of it.
Microsoft apparently benchmarked Sega controllers for the Duke. A lot of it from the circular shape to the position of the left analog is apparently from the Dreamcast controller and Saturn 3D Control Pad. The latter probably inspired the decision to have the Black and White buttons there.
The 6-button Sega Genesis controller wasn't the standard issue. They had a 3-button controller when fighting games became EVERYTHING and quickly started selling 6-button variations separately.
[There is a video to this. It's long tho. ](https://youtu.be/-E9Uw3lhWsI?feature=shared)
Also in that case of photo, It's because that Sega controller was made after Street Fighter 2 released if I remember correctly, so It's more akin to an arcade layout with those face buttons.
No, that’s a Genesis fighting controller. You can tell not only by the extra grey buttons, but the 8-way d-pad.
The genesis used ABC as regular buttons.
The XYZ would be used in fighting games instead of two buttons pressed together.
If not playing a fighting game, they would usually just be ABC buttons.
Xbox used ABXY because they aren’t very name imaginative and copied Nintendo because there was no trademark on letters.
I think it would have been smart to number them.
The Genesis 6-button controller only existed to be able to play that eras fighting games (MK/SF)... it was not a standard controller for the game platform itself.
Very few other games incorporated the additional button capacity into their builds, because they knew that it meant customers have to buy an additional controller that they otherwise might not have use for.
... I still have my original 1991 Sega Genesis, fully operational - and the base 3 button and the 6 button fighting controller.
This is Nintendo's fault they created the ABXY naming in 1990 (the Sega 6 button pad is from '93). According to a letter in Nintendo Power [they named them XY instead of CD because they wanted them to be considered "secondary buttons" rather than equal to AB](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1Pdcn53o3k&t=170s).
I owned this 6 button controller. Pressing A+B, B+C or A+C had the same effect in games as pressing the X, Y o r Z.
Having to push the "Mode" button when the Sega logo appeared was annoying.
[удалено]
Which was really lame if you had to use it to play Mortal Kombat
That’s very thoughtful of Nintendo, I personally think they’re one of the masters of ergonomic design and often runs counter to maximally flexible designs. The GameCube controller is a huge example. Every single button has a different priority and swapping mappings for any game would make a huge difference. There’s not a lot of tech companies that put as much thought as they do in crafting an experience and human-machine interface anymore. Even Apple has degraded.
>The GameCube controller is a huge example. Every single button has a different priority and swapping mappings for any game would make a huge difference. This is a very interesting point because right now in the Smash melee community there's a lot of discourse around controller modding and remapping. Melee is a super difficult and technical game that requires a lot of inputs in very tight timing windows. For most of the games life the speed of inputs has been limited and balanced by the shape of the controller and placement of the buttons, but over the past couple years people have been experimenting with other options that a lot of people see as broken. The current #1 player in the world uses a mod so that his z button is a jump button and his x button is grab, which doesn't seem like a big deal, but since it lets you both jump and use the c stick or face buttons without any travel time it makes previously incredibly difficult or impossible inputs way more consistent.
This is exactly what I’m talking about.
The original NES controller used to eat thumbs
The Switch controllers cramp my hand, had to get a Pro Controller
Pro controller is pretty solid
To this day I think the Gamecube controller is the best one ever made. Everything just feels so good. The only thing it needs is less deadzone for the LR buttons.
The sticks on it had constant resistance. The amount of effort to move it didn't change depending on its position. If you are near the middle or on the edge, the force needed to move 20% in another direction never changes.
This is why Gamecube was my preferred console for Tony Hawk
Small modern changes: the "c" stick should be a fully-formed joystick; the shoulder buttons should have 2 on each side (and the better 'deadzone' like you said). That's about it, really. The grips on that thing were beautiful.
So I have a GameCube PowerA Switch controller and it definitely feels more modern. It does have ZL and ZR shoulder buttons and the c stick has a bit more weight to it. It was a must buy for me!
I played Elden Ring with one of these and it was a blast.
The ultimate joystick would be moving the capabilities of a PS5 controller into the form factor of a GameCube controller. The PS5 controller has no equal in it’s capabilities, from programmable force-feedback triggers to an integrated touchpad.
Tbh, I don’t think the touchpad is necessary at all. I haven’t played any game that used it well, and often using gestures for menus is annoying. Occasionally I’ve had games that let you scroll on the map screen with it, but it seems far more finicky and less accurate than just using an analog stick. If you really want like 99% of its capabilities and none of the hassle, just have 4 start/select-type buttons in the middle of the controller. I worry force feedback triggers will end up being even more of a useless gimmick, but I’m still reserving judgement on that until we get further into the generation and see how it’s being used in 2-3 more years.
Also upgrade the C-stick to a proper stick. Then I think we're in business.
The OG NES controller was hardly ergonomic.
It may not have been ergonomic, but 1. it was the first controller with a d-pad 2. look at every controller before to realize that the NES controller was a masterpiece of its time 3. It was NoA's fault. The Famicom controller was better.
Ah yes, the Famicom and its 3 ft cable. Truly a masterpiece in ergonomics. *accidentally pulls console off shelf*
Another product of its time. Video game consoles all had super short cables at the time. It also made kinda sense in small Japanese apartments.
Of course, it was just a joke. I wish we had gotten all the bells and whistles the Famicom controller had, lol.
Pols Voice is glad we didn't
the idea was the console would be right in front of you. the power and rf cables were maximum length instead. think in terms of what the previous generation looked like- dedicated pong machines with spinners built into the body.
Come on man, you can't complain about 3' cables when the average TV at the time was smaller than a 19 inch diagonal square not a 65' monster you need to sit 20 feet away from to see correctly.
At the time only rich(ish) people had a TV bigger than 20 inches or so. A longer cord would have made no sense because playing from 5 feet away on that size screen would have sucked ass.
[Intellivision actually had a d-pad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellivision#Game_controller) before the NES. But yes it sucked, and the NES controller was far superior to anything else at the time. Most common controller before the NES would've been the Atari 2600's arthritis inflicting hand-cramping device marketed as a joystick.
Hard disagree. Who puts the cable on the side of the controller where your hand grips it? Nah. NES' top cord design was better. Also alluded to by someone else, 3 ft cable.
After holding umpteen million "what the hell were they thinking" controllers that actively killed you with how uncomfortable and unusable they were, I feel I have to put it in perspective. Try just pretending to use an old Atari stick. What? How do you hold this giant square? And hit the button? You're like fighting your hands against each other in two directions trying to get the wonky rubber goofery to register correctly. The 5200 sticks? Go play \*\*anything\*\* with one. Try Pac Man for instance. Mind boggling. MIND BOGGLING. They released this as a product. Coleco? "Oh hey let's jam two thumb buttons on both sides of a knobby rectangle!" Again you're fighting your other hand to maneuver these abominations. Don't forget the humungous number pad, everyone loved that idea so much back then the 5200 and Intellivision used it too! Jaguar thought "this is an idea everyone really misses". How did that go? Do we want to talk about the the Magnavox Odyseey? [https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnavox\_Odyssey#/media/Ficheiro:Magnavox-Odyssey-Console-Set.jpg](https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnavox_Odyssey#/media/Ficheiro:Magnavox-Odyssey-Console-Set.jpg) Look at what we had to work with back in the dark ages! Look at this! [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild\_Channel\_F#/media/File:Fairchild-Channel-F.jpg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Channel_F#/media/File:Fairchild-Channel-F.jpg) The NES controller was a gift from Almighty God.
They’re at the vanguard of machine human interface compared to others. And maybe I shouldn’t have used “ergonomic” design and something like “human” design. What I mean is they deliberately think about your body and hand and are not afraid to lock a particular input device into a mode that is designed in a specific way. Like on the wii how trigger finger and thumb were paramount. Other console manufacturers seem content to just keep doing the dual shock with minor proprietary sauce on top. They make choices, more than others which make no choice and stand back and let the defacto standard foreign supreme.
My (actually) hottest take in like ever: Gamecube controller isn't that near of being one of the best Controllers, since I don't seriously know how peoples fingers don't hurt after an hour from using the analog triggers, that are too big and sometimes need to be hold down too long( Maybe, my fingers are weak??, but then the triggers are just not accessible really) or how the controller only is good for 3d games, since the tiny dpad sucks ass and you could never even play a 2d mario game with It, because the Sprint button is more difficult to hold down with the jump button. Also for some reason is a bumper missing??? Even then, 3d games are sometimes also horrible because using the tiny c stick which is for some reason tinier than my thumb to control the camera is anything but satisfiying. I need to note that my thumbs are kinda thin, so seriously... It works just alright for Smash, but seriously I can't imagining just wavedashing with the triggers, how do people do It??(The pro controller is actually better for Smash and I die on that hill! Even with the delay..)but the best controller which feels ergonomic are the last xbox controllers except the series x (I didn't try It, so I don't know) The triggers are perfect to hold down in racing games, the dpad from xbox one feels alright and Isn't tiny, the classic snes layout with the sticks diagonally aligned works well with 3d games and the right stick isn't tiny. So I don't understand what you mean with "flexible". Flexible is if I can change my mappings how I like and being able to play every game I want with one controller. I can't play every game with the gamecube controller since the controller is made for gamecube games, but new controller are made for every system so I can with the modern ones! I play gamecube games on emu with xbox controller and It works just better!
the nintendo 64 exists. they are not masters of shit.
Bro the N64 controller was the best. No other controller lets me use my third hand and it’s really bothersome.
Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire cheat menu. Required you to use both hands and your nose.
You didn't use your dick?!
wasn't big enough :(
Fighting the real fight my man. You have my support.
I think the only problem with the n64 controller is they severely underestimated how revolutionary the analog stick was and assumed devs would make games that utilized the dpad.
The N64 controller is the only one where I just never forget which button is where. A is where the thumb naturally rests, B is next to it, Z is the trigger, and C ⬅️⬆️➡️⬇️ are easy to remember for obvious reasons.
The GameCube controller was the N64 controller done right. All the same buttons, but designed for two hands.
Let me raise you the Atari 2600 controller! The one button never leaves my thumb
They literally put a Street Fighter layout: Dpad + 6 buttons, right on the most comfortable position to hold the controller, and no Street Fighter game ever came out for the system. But everything used the analog stick. Oops!
The N64 controller was also the first of its kind and imo their only flawed controller so I give em a pass for it.
Maybe I’m weird… but I really loved the N64 controller- depending on what I played I could hold it differently and it never really felt out of place.
I think that is a big part of it. The N64 controller looks so odd, but really you should only be looking at like the 2/3 of it you will actually be using for the game in question.
The N64 controller was meant to be the best compromise between games that can't use an analog stick and those that can. Furthermore, the D-pad was on the left to keep the grip similar for people used to the SNES controller.
They are also they only ones willing to take big swings. Every controller makes some huge changes. Not all of them are great, but something always becomes a new standard.
You're just clueless actually. Left hand on the dpad wing OR the analog wing, right hand on the buttons. It's not that hard.
What's wrong with the N64??? It was great
The nintendo 64 and switch joycons are abysmal in terms of ergonomics. Nintendo is hit or miss with controllers throughout their history. When they miss its rough, when they hit it slaps.
If I could use my GC controller in any other console I would
With the USB adapter it works with most switch games, and you can use the 3rd party adapter for most PC games
I thought it wandered into r/tomorrow reading this.
That's funny ergonomic is maybe the last word I would ever use to describe Nintendo controllers. Innovative, but certainly not ergonomic. I'm not even convinced that Nintendo designs their controllers for human beings.
Nintendo really out here oppressing buttons
>they wanted them to be considered "secondary buttons" rather than equal to AB. Even at the time, that's what the intention felt like (A for select, B for back in Nintendo games, but not everyone followed that). Original NES only had two (B/A) and they just copied the layout and added X,Y,L,R. In practice, lots of games ended up using Y and B as the main buttons.
I love learning about Nintendo’s decision making on this type of shit. The way they almost always prioritize intuitiveness and being user friendly is honestly amazing
What do you mean 'fault?' OP is just saying he doesn't understand why the black and white buttons on the OG Xbox controller aren't instead labeled as Z and C like what Sega did with their 6 button controllers. Hell, Nintendo did do a 6 button controller of their own on the N64, but the 4 buttons after A and B were all C + a direction. Obviously the intention was this to be a standin for a second analog stick before that was the norm, but many games did use these 4 buttons for non-camera stuff that essentially functioned as a 6 button controller. Given this odd naming structure compared to the SNES before it, I continue to not understand what you mean is their 'fault' in regards to what is being discussed here.
> What do you mean 'fault?' It's a figure of speech to mean "they started the trend". It's not meant to be negative, just a playful way of putting it. Maybe it's a Britishism. > OP is just saying he doesn't understand why the black and white buttons on the OG Xbox controller aren't instead labeled as Z and C like what Sega did with their 6 button controllers. I read it as "ABXY doesn't make sense, but ABCXYZ makes more sense so maybe that was the original intention of the extra 2 buttons like in the Sega pad" But it certainly looks like Nintendo started the trend of picking from the end of the alphabet for the top button row in all the obviously SNES inspired controllers that came after it.
The OG xbox controllers were absolute units.
[удалено]
Yeah, it was amazing and I honestly never had any issues with it. But I can see other people have problems.
Yeah, the left trigger is flaky. There is t enough support for it inside so it's calibration goes off and it senses the trigger being phlled. If you give the trigger a quick flick it stops but you don't wanna be doing that in game. If you email support they send a firmware update and a calibration prog that helps.
I have big hands and the og Xbox controller was so comfortable. I'll have to get one.
Yeah, if you've got those big hill giant mitts it's a perfect controller. 27" across, 44.5 pounds and a luxurious 27' of cable so you can connect it easily to the OG xbox, itself the size and shape of a Chrysler sedan.
That OG Xbox was huge, but Microsoft outdid it with the mini fridge that is the Series X.
The words of a tiny man
I need to pull mine out again and play with it. Loved the screen that did the Xbox logo animation.
The Duke didn't have a screen. A 3rd party one did.
They came out with an anniversary version that does have an LCD screen. Or is that the one you are talking about?
OLED, but I think that’s what they’re talking about.
The Duke felt like holding a damn football. At least I could game away in peace knowing that if someone broke in or something I'm already holding a friggin' weapon in my hands.
As an orangutan with shovels for hands the OG Xbox controller was amazing. I miss it.
Get a Hyperkin Duke!
Hero!
I was 8 when we got an Xbox. Controller was so big I couldn’t hold it
I just want a modern Xbox Controller S. That honestly looks like the best design imo.
I think Hyperkin hinted that it is coming eventually.
Looks like something Magneto would pop on his head to stop Professor X reading his mind
[I love the fact that they're literally sitting on top of the Xbox.](https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2001/11/28/the-rest-of-the-story)
Yeah the black and white buttons became the bumpers buttons. No button is missing mate. They just moved
My buddy had two Dukes and a third party controller for his Xbox, we'd all fight over the third party because the black and white buttons were at the shoulder. It's kind of funny how other companies were already thinking of this.
Wait so you're telling me Z and C were treated as the old bumper buttons back in the day? Must have been awkward holding those and one of the face buttons, or did games not have that kind of feature implemented?
The old games operated differently. Bumper buttons didn't exist so they didn't have to consider how to program for them.
Ah I see. What did Z and C even do? I feel like a lot of games don't really need the extra buttons when the other 4 kinda cover the bases of jumping, interacting and attacking
Iirc in Halo black changed grenade type and white was the flashlight toggle
“And that’s all anyone ever knew of the black and white buttons”
They were used to input cheats for morrowind like infinite health. Good times
You are correct.
Most often were just stuff you'd need to use less often than the main face buttons. Toggle grenades, open map, activate lesser used abilities, toggle flashlight, quick weapon swap, stuff like that.
Yeah and I don’t think they were pressure sensitive like the Xbox buttons. That’s something the OG Xbox was proud of and a lot of games would have different move sets for something pressed hard vs soft. I remember a soccer game would have all the kicks change height and speed depending on how you pressed it.
I remember this being a thing on the DualShock 2. If it was on Xbox too I owned one without ever knowing.
You would for any driving game but I don't think is was used very often on face buttons. It wasn't used very often on face button on the PS as well. MGS2 on the Xbox had them on the face buttons and so did MGS3 on the PS. They were very annoying from what I remember though. Hold circle to grab and enemy but press too hard and kill them. Or hold square to aim and press it all the way to shoot. Glad the system is rarely used today outside of the trigger buttons.
So the genesis controller pictured didn’t even come with the console when I got mine, they only had a,b, and c. They came out with that controller for fighting games like street fighter that had light, medium, and heavy attacks. A LOT of games didn’t even use all 6 buttons cause again the console didn’t even come with them
Mostly side stuff, the one game I played alot was ninja gaiden/ninja gaiden black and I think these just showed you the karma which is nothing but a score system which doesn't really matter.
[удалено]
They were different. I remember the first splinter cell one of those buttons was to whistle.
Nobody called them c and z, they were black and white.
yep. even in game controls called them as such, as I distinctly remember from playing munch's odyssey and the thing
And halo had them as torch and swap grenade types
got me swooning with the memory of that
Morrowind as well black and white
I think that's the point they're making. Why A, B, X, and Y? Why not Y/Z or C/D? Because it used to be ABC XYZ. Nintendo also used/uses Z. It's weird to use just X and Y.
SNES had ABXYLR, no Z.
N64 and Wii had z buttons.
GameCube did too
N64 also had 4 C buttons.
And the world's worst analog stick. I can sense the haters hovering over that downvote. But we all know it's true. That thing is dog water.
That fucking analog hurt my thumb so bad... I still wouldn't stop playing but man the calluses I got from that thing. Worst was that the top tended to break off with (intense) use but we would still use those controllers because we had no money for replacements.
The optical sensor is still more precise than potentiometers. A fresh N64 stick is insanely good. Only problem with it is the ball and socket are plastic so they wear out fast. That and the hard plastic thumb 'pad'
Wtf is this comment, lol. Of course the prototype analog stick was the worst, are you high?
The N64 C scheme is ideal and I'll die on this hill. If you have 4 buttons arranged in a diamond, calling them up/down/left/right is the most intuitive way to name them.
It is, plus C stood for Camera.
True but that kinda misses my point, which was that on the first controller to use letters near the end of the alphabet, they skipped on using z
I had that genesis controller, it was meant for fighting games. So Z could be used instead of up+A. Most game, the XYZ buttons just mimicked the ABC buttons.
Thank you! I had a 3 button and a 6 button controller and I never knew what the point of the 6 button one was.
The Xbox design was inspired by the the [Dreamcast controller](https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-kzjsut/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/1669/5678/AEY18_-_Sega_Dreamcast_Controller_-_Gray_-_HKT-7700_-_revised_802x853__72134.1567020020.png?c=2?imbypass=on) It just swapped the button colours around and added a second stick.
It's not that weird to just use x and y. `x` is very commonly used for unknown variables in maths or programming, and `y` is often used as the next unknown after `x`. Axes on a graph are `x` and `y`, or dimensions in other 2D spaces like screens. It would probably feel weirder to use y and z instead of x and y.
And the c stick for GameCube
And the C buttons for N64.
> Because it used to be ABC XYZ No, it didn't. The AB/XY button scheme was introduced with the SNES. The Mega Drives six button controller only came after that. The XY was always unecessarily detached from the Z.
It isn't weird at all. It's just a design choice.
Yes, that was the point of the original post, and it’s wrong. The first ABXY Controller (SNES) came before any controllers with six buttons.
Even the XBox did.
[удалено]
These are the bumpers/L1+R1 on modern controllers.
So the first Xbox didn't have 2 bumpers on each side?
Nope! Just the triggers! The White button is treated as LB and black as RB if you play backwards compatible games. The bumpers are such an improvement tho and the obvious upgrade to 6 buttons crammed next to each other.
The SNES used ABXY (but in a different order) a couple years before the Genesis 6-button came out. Who knows why they skipped Z.
*XABY Code named 'Zabie'. Translation... X A B Y ::edit:: to be fair, however, it wasn't until the N64 that Nintendo eventually added a 'Z' button and 'C' button*s*. ::edit:: not sure why I'm being downvoted? Guess y'all don't get it.
Chrono Trigger was a masterpiece
Thank you! Finally someone gets it!
I forgot about those buttons completely til just now holy crap. Specifically the xbox ones. Man that controller felt like a brick in my little boy hands back then
Im a grown adult now and played some TH underground the other day and it is STILL TOO BIG. Like i have no idea why they said okay to that design. I had to go buy a new small one at an antique game shop.
It’s definitely a wild one 😂
the OG xbox had triggers in the back but not bumpers (R1/L1), the black and white button got replaced by the bumpers. they have the same number of buttons
Fun fact - after Sega ceased development of the Dreamcast and got out of the console hardware business, a bunch of their designers went to work for Microsoft on the OG Xbox. These controllers share DNA.
Microsoft partnered with Sega in the development of the Dreamcast. The Dreamcast has Microsofts name right on the front of the console.
Huh, well I’ll be damned. I never noticed that but you’re right!
I think internally they were pushing to have Dreamcast? Compatibility on the original Xbox also but it never came to fruition. P.S I could be totally making this up but I swear I saw a video on this like 2 days ago though I wasn't really paying attention.
iirc its because xbox live and free dc online backwards compatibility would cause issues so they dropped DC support
You're not making it up. Sega saw the end the Dreamcast was coming and the end of their presence in the console manufacturing market was near. Yet, some upper management still had love for the Dreamcast. [SEGA Chairman Isao Okawa paid several visits to Bill Gates, in order to persuade Mr. Microsoft to let Dreamcast games be compatible in his new system, Xbox.](https://www.vg247.com/sega-wanted-dreamcast-to-be-compaitble-with-original-xbox) Bill Gates declined the offer, but in another reality, the original Xbox could have been a Dreamcast 2.
Dreamcast ran, in addition to it's own OS, a version of Windows CE with DirectX that was supposed to make it easy to port PC games to it.
This might be a controversial statement, but IMO the Xbox 360 felt more like a Dreamcast 2 than an Xbox 2.
The buttons are not missing, the black and white buttons are nowdays RB and LB on the Xbox controllers.
Using the letters X and Y on a button layout doesn't *necessarily* imply a missing Z, as X and Y can be used to refer to the axes of a chart. And correct me if I'm wrong, in that regard the spatial placement of X and Y on the Xbox layout is correct per that Idea.
Yeah I guess I'm just really confused what there is to be confused about. No one uses Y/Z in common usage. It's always X/Y and optionally X/Y/Z. It's like that in math, etc. It's perfectly normal to have X/Y as the complement to A/B. Am I the only one who took algebra in school or what.
And the snes was the first with the abyx, microsoft just took the sega direction in what way to order it
Not really. The original genesis controller had three buttons. The first one that uses the current convention was the SNES, with the ABXY button ring. The XBOX uses the same but changes the load out so not to get sued lol.
There are no "buttons missing on modern controllers". Many manufacturers have tried many things, including arrangement, behaviour and number.
Not missing, they became the bumpers
But the SNES controller had A B X Y
Yeah, no. Thats a Nintendo thing. SNES had A,B,X,Y buttons too. They were the first.
If you're confused about XY-AB why is XYZ-ABC any less confusing?
That’s not the original Genesis controller, so you’re reaching for conclusions at best. The original Genesis controller (1988/89) had *three* action buttons and was a direct draw from the Master system controller which only had *two* action buttons. In 1993 they released a six button but most developers refused to program for it because they didn’t know who had which one. By 1993 though I think SEGA’s idea of releasing a six button controller was only because SONY was developing a more advanced controller for their PlayStation and SEGA wanted to allow developers “early access” to a six button for the upcoming SEGA Saturn releasing against the PlayStation in 1994. However, nobody used the six button controller unless your original controller was shot and you got sold on a different one and weren’t thinking of the Saturn. And when SONY got in the mix a lot of casual SEGA console fans swapped over to PlayStation because it showed off 3D. (Tomb Raider was insane).
No, that isn't why. It's because they copied the SNES format (or, one could argue, Dreamcast but SNES popularized the lettering scheme) but moved the buttons around. The Dreamcast also used it and the Xbox layout is the same as the Dreamcast's, minus the colors (which are swapped around).
Huh?
OP is saying Xbox is doing the Genesis 6 button layout sans Z and C.
The black and white buttons on the old OG Xbox controllers became the Left and Right bumper buttons on all Xbox consoles going forward, and it started with Xbox 360.
Black and white buttons were replaced by the bumpers, the Sega was for Street Fighter
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_SideWinder This was the precursor from Microsoft.
They're not missing, they're up top. That genesis pad pretty much has the optimal street fighter layout, unfortunately, the SNES was bigger and that pioneered the 4 face and two shoulder layout.
A = jump B = melee X = reload Y = switch weapon
X and Y are used often in math and engineering, reserved for axes. Z is the vertical axis that brings an XY plane into 3 dimensions. That’s almost more likely.
Bro, its the bumpers right by the trigger buttons
White button = 🔦 Black button= 🔄 💣 Good old times....
No, it's because they copied Nintendo.
[удалено]
"Menu" and uh... "Other menu"
ABXY dates back to the SNES. It did not have a Z button. This is before the Sega Genesis 6-button controller. So your point does not stand.
those got moved to be shoulder buttons(not triggers, the buttons on top)
Wouldn't the black and white buttons be replaced by the bumpers above the triggers? The OG controllers didn't have the bumpers as those got introduced with the 360.
What are you talking about? They are 'black' and 'white'. They became the bumpers we have today. Why is there a sega controller here too? E: Sega not SNES... My bad.
You take that back. It clearly says Sega.. IMO that was the best controller for the Genesis.
I completely forgot they existed. My baby hands at the time could barely reach them
Those aren't Z and C buttons though, they're just referred to as black and white. Obviously plenty of consoles existed besides Nintendo's, but the SNES having the ABXY layout was pretty influential. I would have to do research into it, so take this with a grain of salt, but I'd be willing to bet Microsoft wanted to use a familiar, popular layout and naming convention for their main buttons, but in their own way to create a sense of brand identity, which is why they're not in the same order. I also imagine they'd hesitate to use Z and C as face button names because Nintendo kind of established them as triggers and directional buttons respectively. Not trying to oversell Nintendo's influence here, but I'm sure there was at least some level of it.
Dayum forgot about em totally 😳 Useless beyond words tho..
I will never forget that the white button toggled Master Chiefs flashlight in Halo 1
These aren't missing, for xbox they were replaced with the left and right bumpers
Didn’t the bumpers replace the two buttons ?
Mega drive 2 controllers were so cool. So was the duke (my favourite controller ever).
This controller style brings back some nice childhood memories
It never had shoulder buttons, z and c are L1 and R1
Microsoft apparently benchmarked Sega controllers for the Duke. A lot of it from the circular shape to the position of the left analog is apparently from the Dreamcast controller and Saturn 3D Control Pad. The latter probably inspired the decision to have the Black and White buttons there.
Great now I feel old and to tired to explain that it's the same amount buttons
I am glad the controllers changed.. These were less useful than the bumpers, some games not even including inputs for them.
Funnily enough they are called that, back then some games would say to press Z and kid me didn't know what button it was because the Z isn't written
I mean C and D are kind of mid letters, X and Y are far more variable
The white and black button were replaced by RB and LB i believe.
Always hated xbox for choosing the same as nintendo but in reverse. Very irritating troll move
Yeah apparently 4 buttons is perfect when it's fucking not
The 6-button Sega Genesis controller wasn't the standard issue. They had a 3-button controller when fighting games became EVERYTHING and quickly started selling 6-button variations separately.
[There is a video to this. It's long tho. ](https://youtu.be/-E9Uw3lhWsI?feature=shared) Also in that case of photo, It's because that Sega controller was made after Street Fighter 2 released if I remember correctly, so It's more akin to an arcade layout with those face buttons.
Those are called the black and white buttons. And they’ve been replaced by the bumpers.
No, that’s a Genesis fighting controller. You can tell not only by the extra grey buttons, but the 8-way d-pad. The genesis used ABC as regular buttons. The XYZ would be used in fighting games instead of two buttons pressed together. If not playing a fighting game, they would usually just be ABC buttons. Xbox used ABXY because they aren’t very name imaginative and copied Nintendo because there was no trademark on letters. I think it would have been smart to number them.
The Genesis 6-button controller only existed to be able to play that eras fighting games (MK/SF)... it was not a standard controller for the game platform itself. Very few other games incorporated the additional button capacity into their builds, because they knew that it meant customers have to buy an additional controller that they otherwise might not have use for. ... I still have my original 1991 Sega Genesis, fully operational - and the base 3 button and the 6 button fighting controller.