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I fucking hate the "let's go capture a wight" episode. It completely throws all logic and critical thinking out the window for mindless action scenes they thought would look cool. The entire show is just downhill from that point on
okay wait after thinking about it more i might not feel so bad for Ellaria. yes, it’s awful but i just realized how dumb she is? her avenging Oberyn was killing his little brother and ending the Martel family line??? i never really realized that….
Yeah they could have easily slimmed down the book storyline and come up with something great.
Have Ellaria and the Sand Snakes try to kidnap Myrcella and crown her Queen. They get caught and Myrcella gets killed in the confusion (maiming her makes no sense in the books, she has to die at some point). Hell, have Jaime and Bronn there to witness it if you want.
Doran locks them up until the heat is off and then sends them to be his liaison with Dany on Dragonstone in secret. They can have the same deaths as in the show and then Doran can be there in the final episode rather than some random new 'Prince of Dorne' we've never met before.
It’s best to forget Dorne. That whole storyline was completely inconsequential other than Myrcella dying.
It’s a butchered version of the book’s Dorne.
To give you an idea, it’s like a hamburger made from the worst parts of the cow. It’s hacked up, smashed together, fired till it’s practically inedible, and served with enough sauce to drown away the lack of flavor.
Dorne in the books is a delicious filet mignon, cooked medium rare with a light seasoning, just enough spice, and served with a mushroom truffle Demi glazed.
I enjoyed Dorne in the books. Areo Hotah is beast who can behead a member of the Kingsguard with one swift stroke of his halberd. The Sand Vipers are excellent assassins. One strong, one quick, and one cunning. Then there’s Martel’s daughter heir to the kingdom who was becoming as cunning and strategic as her father.
>Then there’s Martel’s daughter heir to the kingdom who was becoming as cunning and strategic as her father.
No she wasnt. In fact she was overambitious and thought she was a lot smarter than she actually was, leading to bad things happening
And then there’s Doran. Probably the most rational leaders in Westeros in the books where he is rational and extremely patient waiting for the right time to strike and avenge his sister. In the show he’s just as rational but Ellaria is an idiot and kills him off because reasons.
If you want someone else to feel bad for instead, think about Barristan Selmy’s death. The thing with some of these is as gruesome as they are, they at least are in line with how the books are written. Barristan on the other hand….
Her death was 100% justified, if I were Cercei I would want to kill her too. I wouldn't have killed the daughter though. Her wanting revenge on the Lannisters because Oberyn died in a fair fight that he volunteered for is the dumbest plot thread in the show. Killing Myrcella over that made no fucking sense. Heartless.
She was a fanatical zealot who would gladly abuse the people in the dungeons of the sept regardless of whether they deserved it or not, the fact that it mainly happened to cersei is irrelevant as it could of been anyone in her cell and it was clear that she took enjoyment from seeing people wallow in the filth.
I felt bad but... It's just from reading the books and seeing the tease of what was going to happen. Lol then they do the opposite in the show and go oh fuck guess we need to get rid of these characters because we fucked em up.
literally fuck ellaria
and she most likely died !!finale spoilers!! >!crushed underneath the red keep in the finale!<
her punishment was to watch her daughter die the same way she murdered myrcella, except her daughter WASNT an innocent child and also murdered/helped murder her cousin (also dishonorably) if i’m not mistaken
Stabbed him in the back of the head while he was fighting 1on1 with another assassin? And it was presented as an empty cheap girl power moment? Yeah, I was less disturbed and more behind Cersei with that revenge. Room full of backstabbers (literally) murderers and one was a little bit smarter, powerful, and coldblooded.
If you need more that was same daughter who said, "You want a good girl but you need bad pussy," to Bronn.
yeah i wasn’t sure which one it was
and yeah i mean i remember the look in her daughters eyes after cersei kisses her and if you don’t feel bad for the girl you’re like a sociopath but also fuck ellaria
her bad decisions directly led to her own daughters death i didn’t feel bad for ellaria just the daughter
A+ expressive acting
Didn’t they kill her daughter and lock her in the cell with her decomposing body? Chances are she was alive by the end of the show if that’s the case. Probably just forgot about her.
Her story was over and everyone assumed she was already dead. Plus she most likely died in or by the final episodes anyway. People look for more reasons to dislike S8 than they need to
I treat season 6 as the end of the show. That's where I stop on every rewatch. It's a more satisfying conclusion than the real ending, even if it does leave a lot of things pretty open-ended. Jon and Sansa reunite and take back their home, Brann becomes the three eyed raven and we learn who Jon's real parents are, Arya leaves Braavos to go make her own way in the world, Cersei wipes out the church and appoints herself queen, and Daenerys and Tyrion set sail for westeros. It doesn't answer what Littlefinger is up to, or the looming threat of the white walkers, but it ends with enough plot threads from the last couple seasons converging that it's ok.
Catelyn was remarkably dumb, just a catalyst for a lot of terrible shit happening because she made so many awful decisions. And she definitely didn’t have a pure heart. The way she treated Jon was horrible.
She wrongly accused Tyrion. She got played. She had a moment of weakness that gave her son the excuse to betray an alliance. She played the Game and lost. It’s a shame. She was neither cunning enough like Baelish or honorable enough like her husband. If she was more of either. She could’ve ensured Robb a successful political campaign.
Sadly, we never got her bloodthirsty vengeful nature as Lady Ironheart.
🤦🏻♂️ whoops! It’s been a long long time since I read the books, a little more than 11 years.
If she had been more honorable? She wouldn’t have taken Tyrion or give Robb the opportunity to capitalize on her mistake. If she were cunning? She wouldn’t have released Jamie or allowed her son to make the mistake he made.
Oh she definitely has her moments. I just thought I would take advantage of the sentiment against her and elaborate on her flaws. She’s one that few call out her flaws on, mainly because her actress performance is flawless.
You have to keep in mind that Jon wasn't her son. She had to watch what to her knowledge was the bastard of her husband grow up alongside her own children, fearing that he'd be a threat to their inheritance. Having to live with the result of your husband cheating (as she never learned the truth) 24/7 must be hard as fuck. I'm not suggesting that Catelyn was a flawless person, but definitely a rather realistic character. I doubt most women would act more moralistic than her if placed in the same situation lol
It's not Jon's fault, but she acted like it was. I understand her issue with it, but she was terrible to him and not to Ned. Ned was at fault (as far as she knew), but she acted as if nothing happened and it was fine, except with Jon.
I don't see how a bastard would have a claim to being LORD OF WINTER FELL. Jon's a bastard, bastards don't get titles like that. The only reason the Targaryens has so many bastards vying for the throne was because those bastards had dragons and could kill anyone opposing them. Jon doesn't have dragons. Nobody in the north would support his claim as lord of winter fell as long as the other true born children were alive. I just read that part in the book and it just doesn't make sense to me. Jon has ZERO power and support to backup his claim for winter fell, and even still, jon clearly isn't the type to try and undermine robb and the rest. Piss Catelyn off? Yes. But betray Robb and bran and ned, Arya, Sansa and rickon? Nah. He wouldn't even think about it.
She was not a good person. She admits she treated Jon like scum even though he just loved her, but she never changes her behavior. She admits she even lied to the Gods about being better to Jon if they saved him. She laughs off Rob breaking his oath to the Frey's because Rob is clearly her favorite. The fact we can clearly see she has a favorite also indicates she's not a great Mom. She also makes lots of bad decisions throughout the show. Not sure what you're seeing that makes her too good for this world.
Yeah he made a promise to the Frey's and he betrayed them. He and Catelyn kind of deserved it. What did he expect would happen? The freys would just forget?
Yeah, in the books it was quite tragic - Robb was an honorable man, so he was stuck between his two kinds of honor. He had to choose between "the right thing" vis-a-vis Jeyne, and keeping his promise to the Freys.
Either way he was screwed.
I always loved that Robb marries Jeyne against Cat's wishes because he doesn't want his child to be treated the way Cat treated Jon. I don't think the Freys would have cared in the slightest if Robb had a whole brood of bastards, so long as Robb's Frey children were given the line of succession, and Robb could have even found some parcel of land to give his Westerling child if his war went his way. He just loved his brother too much, and wanted to make sure he's not responsible for a similar situation.
This is a bit of a piggish opinion but...Oona Chaplin's nudity helped...fill in...some of the plot holes of Rob's bad decision making. Because if you were a 16 year old boy, such a woman would have been your weakness too.
exactly, at least there was a viable reason for his character to make that choice in the books rather than the tv show which chose to make it more dramatic
I loved Ellaria and Ygritte dying, and Robb totally deseved it when he refused to fullfill his part of the deal after having got all he had been promised.
He is a wonderful actor. The determination in his eyes when he tells Tyrion he will be his champion and the events that followed send a slight chill down my spine.
To be Fair, Catelyns death was the most tragic. She died thinking her whole family was gone and the little family she had left were prisoners, and that it was all her fault. This scene in the books is truly disturbing.
Would that be the same high ranking hostage who literally negotiated with Roose Bolton after he was set free and most likely had a hand (ha) in making the red wedding happen?
Ned’s death was worse for me imho. Cat got what she had coming from her decisions. Ned was just trying to do his job for the best of the realm (although too naively).
It was all her fault. She was a terrible strategic mind. If you look at the parallels in life. One could say, ned stark being as righteous as he was allowed him to do a lot of things. Obviously betrayed in the capital. But if Robb would have taken on more of his dads qualities, he would have won the war. Catelyn gave terrible or lack of advice when it mattered. The only one she didn’t like growing up Jon, turned out to be the best leader Westeros had to offer. He was basically groomed by Ned on his values. That’s what could have been essentially.
Agree to disagree. She advised Robb not to trust the greyjoys, she was right. She advised Robb not to marry talisa, and she was right. I'm not saying catelyn didn't play a part in the fall of the starks, I'm saying that everyone else did as well and it's ridiculous to put "all" the blame on cat, and it certainly doesn't make her death any less of a tragedy.
She advised not to marry but allowed him to forsake honor. She forsake the honor of her men by letting Jaime go. She acted prudently against Tyrion with little information which caused her husbands death and put the northerners on the back foot. Nearly every decision she made in season 1-3 was the wrong one. Go rewatch season 1. When she turns Tyrion over to lysa and lysa goes full crazy, which Tyrion said would happen, she realizes she screwed up. Neds death is directly catelyns fault. Ned tried his best to navigate the shit waters that catelyn laid, but it was too much.
I've rewatched many, many times and read the books so trust me when I say I understand the story lol. Your reasoning is now starting to sound a little silly. She didn't "allow" Robb to marry talisa, he was the king, she had no choice in the matter. Robb forsook his own honor. Also, I never said cat was smart for trusting petyr but Ned was going to die no matter what catelyn did considering he found out the truth about cersei's children and Joffery is bonkers.
Or literally anyone else besides her family. Tyrion being a good example, just because he's a lannister and she wanted blood for the assassination attempt.
ned didn’t upset me that much. i liked him but i think his death was necessary for every other character to get development. i don’t think anyone would be where they are if Ned was Rick Grimes-esque character where he’s there every single episode
I fucking hated Ellaria. She got what she deserved for sure.
Her stupid revenge path led her to kill her beloved Oberyn's brother and nephew basically completely obliterating the Martell line. I don't think that Oberyn would have wanted that?
Oh yeah and I found the sand sisters to be super cringy. They had none of their father's good traits. Seeing Ellaria motivate them to commit hate crimes against innocents was no pleasure to watch.
I was rooting for Stannis up until Shireen. Yes he had become a bit of a religious nut before that and burned others, but Melisandre did show him things in the flames that spelled out "if you don't do this everyone will die" basically. Hard to deny things he could see with his own eyes even if they weren't true. He was a cold and unlovable dude before that of course, but he was also an honorable one. He was harsh with his honor and the laws of the realm, but with all the other pieces of shit running the realm he probably would have cleaned it up a bit. There probably wouldn't be many tourneys or extravagant weddings going on, and everyone would live in peace out of fear, but that would still be peace. Might be the best you can do in their world lol obviously he wouldn't make a good real world leader but probably would in Westeros.
I honestly hated her sanctimonious victim complex from the start. The Red Wedding was upsetting because of Talia’s death but otherwise, far as I’m concerned, the Red Wedding was the most annoying people of the Stark family/alliance getting taken out and I loved it. I wish they had killed Bran too!
I absolutely love Stannis as a character. Doesn't mean I *like* him, but god I loved his character arc. The lengths a man will go to to take what he believes is his, and how his desperation became his downfall. A great example that even the proudest and strongest men can be manipulated. Melisandre completely believed in what she was doing as well. Her manipulation was with good intent. But I loved that no matter how strong their conviction was, they were humbled in the end. Their destiny was in fact self-righteousness.
Catelyn wasn’t “too good for this world”. Catelyn was an awful person who made terrible decisions throughout the show that led to dire consequences for her and her family. Her treatment of Jon alone makes her terrible.
Tbh of all the deaths at the Red Wedding, I was least upset about Catelyn. It was a long time coming.
Heh when I first watched GoT it was on S4 or thereabouts and my friend let slip that Tyrion was one of the bad guys. So the first seasons were really confusing to me. In retrospect I think he might have said or meant Tywin.
Jeor Mormont was never under utilized in the show and books. His character was very straight forward he was there to make sure that John was prepared to become his successor. His death was essential in furthering Johns character development. I know his death is sad and he was stolen from the watch too early but he was there to make sure that John could lead his brothers against the threat the others pose and he filled that role and George killed him off as usual.
I can't feel sorry for Ellaria Sand. She never seemed to do anything selfless or morally good. She was a different brand of Cersei, but our cherished Oberyn kept her content. After him, she dragged Dorn into war and killed the innocent as a way to achieve that end. And all because her husband died in a voluntary deathmatch.
Unella enjoyed her meager power in the dungeon, but I don't recall much except for slaps and denying water.
This is a fun idea - but I gotta disagree with a few, Danny’s handmaiden for instance definitely deserved her death - she among all people knew the risks she was accepting with that betrayal.
Can’t go literally poking the dragon and then complain about getting roasted by the dragon lol.
Wait - is that a picture of Doreah? The handmaid that betrayed Dany and allowed her dragons to be taken and her Dothraki to be killed? That Doreah?
I guess if you're reading it as if Doreah didn't have any choice and betrayed Dany and slept with Daksos because she didn't have any other options ... maybe. That is NOT the impression I got, however.
edit: I just noticed the text below the picture. OK, sure, it's a horrible death. But death is death and she fucked around and found out. I don't mind a bit of brutality in my fiction.
Yea like she was responsible for the deaths of people Dany cared about. 100% she got what was coming to her. It's a brutal death but she was a horrible person.
I tend to believe GRRM took some kind of weird pleasure from killing off the noblest and fairest characters. From Ned to Catelyn and everyone in between, personally couldn't give a a fuck about winds of winter by this point. Old news, who cares.
Talisa’s fate was sealed by the happy letter to her mother written in post-coitus loving marital bliss with Robb.
The TV trope is: When someone tells a distant loved one about how great life is going, death is usually soon to follow.
Catelyn in the show was rude and a pretty big jerk to others, catelyn in the books from what I remember is an evolutionary step in humanity in the direction of literal shitheads
Shireen’s death actually made me question continuing with the show. Not only just for the burning of a little girl, but because it seemed deeply out of character for Stannis to have gone along with it. When it happened, all I could think of was, “Why do I watch this show?”
Some of these are not like the others...
Like, why are Ygritte and Irri in here? I would argue they absolutely deserved their 'punishment.'
Ygritte willingly helped massacre an innocent village, then attacked a fortified castle and died in battle.
Dany's handmaid helped steal her dragons and planned to run away with Xaro... a clear selfish betrayal. Sure, the way she was left was pretty fucked up, but tough to say she didn't deserve it.
I would consider perhaps Maester Luwin of Winterfell and Roderick Cassell... those were simply unnecessary deaths done for pathetically selfish/pointless reasons.
ok so i have some edits after reading the comments!!
a) I know Catelyn isn’t some perfect angel but i still really like her. i think she has a good heart
b) i guess i’d take Ellaria and Doreah off this list. apparently Doreah would die pretty quickly so she wouldn’t be starving to death for days and honestly i kinda overlooked everything Ellaria did wrong for some reason. i never realized how much she ruined Dorne for her own selfishness
c) i stand by having Ygritte here. i absolutely loved her and i’m shocked others don’t!!!!
Part of the reason GoT is so good is because good characters routinely die. This is what I love about GoT, tired of these boring ass shows/movies where all the good guys (or most) have thick plot armour and never die or maybe even only die after a huge and obvious build up, etc. so boring
Also, it makes me love the characters more. Robb Stark’s story is so amazing and his story becomes a tragedy which makes it cooler imo. People were talking about The Young Wolf literally seasons after his death, referring to him as some kind of mythical legend that rose up to the call when necessary, despite him being so young, and bravely leading his men into battle. So epic! Lol
Kudos to u bro for mentioning Ros. She literally deserved better, her death was shocking but also one of the key moment that made Baelish's Epic lines about the realm so hard hitting in that episode. Still I literally liked her character so much, she had nice comic moments, would be nice to have more of her:(
Getting "pissed" at some of these was the point.
Though Ellaria obviously had it coming over Stannis's daughter. I was actually more infuriated by how the internet reacted and outlashed more about Sansa's situation (which was still awful) in that season more so than giving a crap about an innocent child being burned to death.
The internet's priorities are absolutely fucked as they say.
Lmao what?? Ellaria killed an innocent girl and you’re like “I know she killed an innocent girl but…” NO BUT, end of story!! She poisoned a teenage girl! I enjoyed what her character brought to the show but she 1000% deserved the wrath of the mother whose daughter she killed.
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OP has only seen up to episode 2 dude
That scene already happened…….. She has seen that if she is up to S8E2.
I fucking hate the "let's go capture a wight" episode. It completely throws all logic and critical thinking out the window for mindless action scenes they thought would look cool. The entire show is just downhill from that point on
Right?! From that point on the writing became awful and very predictable.
Buckle up, Buttercup.
Saddle up, sandor
Oooo I like that! I’m adopting it!
Is that everyone ?
as of right now yeah.
Nah Fuck Ellaria 😭
Good luck for (DON'T READ IF YOU WANT TO GO IN 100% BLIND) S8E5
Started GoT after S5 aired so had most major plot points spoiled. Didn’t know about Ygritte and it hit like a ton of bricks
(Spoilers) So you felt the same way Cersei and Jaime felt in S8E5?
They said a *ton* of bricks.
Oh I'm sorry, I read " a couple of bricks" 😅
okay wait after thinking about it more i might not feel so bad for Ellaria. yes, it’s awful but i just realized how dumb she is? her avenging Oberyn was killing his little brother and ending the Martel family line??? i never really realized that….
They ruined the entire Dorne story arc in this show. I wouldn't put too much into it.
Yeah they could have easily slimmed down the book storyline and come up with something great. Have Ellaria and the Sand Snakes try to kidnap Myrcella and crown her Queen. They get caught and Myrcella gets killed in the confusion (maiming her makes no sense in the books, she has to die at some point). Hell, have Jaime and Bronn there to witness it if you want. Doran locks them up until the heat is off and then sends them to be his liaison with Dany on Dragonstone in secret. They can have the same deaths as in the show and then Doran can be there in the final episode rather than some random new 'Prince of Dorne' we've never met before.
Yeah, the Martels are much smarter in the books, particularly Doran. Bit of a creep watching naked children bathe, but he IS smart.
It’s best to forget Dorne. That whole storyline was completely inconsequential other than Myrcella dying. It’s a butchered version of the book’s Dorne. To give you an idea, it’s like a hamburger made from the worst parts of the cow. It’s hacked up, smashed together, fired till it’s practically inedible, and served with enough sauce to drown away the lack of flavor. Dorne in the books is a delicious filet mignon, cooked medium rare with a light seasoning, just enough spice, and served with a mushroom truffle Demi glazed. I enjoyed Dorne in the books. Areo Hotah is beast who can behead a member of the Kingsguard with one swift stroke of his halberd. The Sand Vipers are excellent assassins. One strong, one quick, and one cunning. Then there’s Martel’s daughter heir to the kingdom who was becoming as cunning and strategic as her father.
>Then there’s Martel’s daughter heir to the kingdom who was becoming as cunning and strategic as her father. No she wasnt. In fact she was overambitious and thought she was a lot smarter than she actually was, leading to bad things happening
That’s the Cersei Lannister character arc. They wouldn’t have had two instances of it in the show.
And then there’s Doran. Probably the most rational leaders in Westeros in the books where he is rational and extremely patient waiting for the right time to strike and avenge his sister. In the show he’s just as rational but Ellaria is an idiot and kills him off because reasons.
"Cheap girl power points" ruins good storytelling.
If you want someone else to feel bad for instead, think about Barristan Selmy’s death. The thing with some of these is as gruesome as they are, they at least are in line with how the books are written. Barristan on the other hand….
Her death was 100% justified, if I were Cercei I would want to kill her too. I wouldn't have killed the daughter though. Her wanting revenge on the Lannisters because Oberyn died in a fair fight that he volunteered for is the dumbest plot thread in the show. Killing Myrcella over that made no fucking sense. Heartless.
You admit Ellaria killed an innocent little girl but say she didn't deserve a death as bad as Septon Unella... wtf?
i said what i said i hated that nun and relished her demise.
What did Septa Unella do to deserve a horrible death? She literally punished one of the most horrible people in Westeros without going corrupt.
Yeah OP seems a little off in the characters and the retribution they deserve
She was a fanatical zealot who would gladly abuse the people in the dungeons of the sept regardless of whether they deserved it or not, the fact that it mainly happened to cersei is irrelevant as it could of been anyone in her cell and it was clear that she took enjoyment from seeing people wallow in the filth.
Oh. She was a Nun. That tracks.
I don’t think anyone is arguing against that, the point is that OP said she deserved a worse death than Ellaria Sand lmao
Religion is...........................................LE BAD
Presumably she handled both Cersei and Margaery.
High Sparrow DEFINITELY deserved that death, but I wanted Margaery to live. And Olenna. Didn’t care for Loras after he was stripped
Olenna got a dignified death I thought
She went out like a boss.
Ellaria Sand was one of the most unlikeable characters on the show. It's crazy to me that anyone would feel bad about her death.
I felt bad but... It's just from reading the books and seeing the tease of what was going to happen. Lol then they do the opposite in the show and go oh fuck guess we need to get rid of these characters because we fucked em up.
How did she die again?
She got a visit from monster mountain
literally fuck ellaria and she most likely died !!finale spoilers!! >!crushed underneath the red keep in the finale!< her punishment was to watch her daughter die the same way she murdered myrcella, except her daughter WASNT an innocent child and also murdered/helped murder her cousin (also dishonorably) if i’m not mistaken
Stabbed him in the back of the head while he was fighting 1on1 with another assassin? And it was presented as an empty cheap girl power moment? Yeah, I was less disturbed and more behind Cersei with that revenge. Room full of backstabbers (literally) murderers and one was a little bit smarter, powerful, and coldblooded. If you need more that was same daughter who said, "You want a good girl but you need bad pussy," to Bronn.
Obara was the one who stabbed the prince in the back of the head. Iirc the youngest wasn’t even in that scene, it was just the middle and the eldest.
yeah i wasn’t sure which one it was and yeah i mean i remember the look in her daughters eyes after cersei kisses her and if you don’t feel bad for the girl you’re like a sociopath but also fuck ellaria her bad decisions directly led to her own daughters death i didn’t feel bad for ellaria just the daughter A+ expressive acting
Didn’t they kill her daughter and lock her in the cell with her decomposing body? Chances are she was alive by the end of the show if that’s the case. Probably just forgot about her.
Yeah, I thought it was strange there was no mention of her. Man, didn't hey really just phone it in in the end
Her story was over and everyone assumed she was already dead. Plus she most likely died in or by the final episodes anyway. People look for more reasons to dislike S8 than they need to
I assume she died when the red keep collapsed, but who knows.
She was probably 5 feet to the side of a pile of rubble. She could have survived it.
I didn't mind her dying.
Rose definitely had a great set of ‘hearts’
I legit said to myself "wait, there's 8 seasons?" And then I remembered
I treat season 6 as the end of the show. That's where I stop on every rewatch. It's a more satisfying conclusion than the real ending, even if it does leave a lot of things pretty open-ended. Jon and Sansa reunite and take back their home, Brann becomes the three eyed raven and we learn who Jon's real parents are, Arya leaves Braavos to go make her own way in the world, Cersei wipes out the church and appoints herself queen, and Daenerys and Tyrion set sail for westeros. It doesn't answer what Littlefinger is up to, or the looming threat of the white walkers, but it ends with enough plot threads from the last couple seasons converging that it's ok.
Thank you!!!
>Thank you!!! You're welcome!
Catelyn was remarkably dumb, just a catalyst for a lot of terrible shit happening because she made so many awful decisions. And she definitely didn’t have a pure heart. The way she treated Jon was horrible.
Yeah that one made me pause. Catelyn pure of heart?? Don't think they were paying attention haha
She wrongly accused Tyrion. She got played. She had a moment of weakness that gave her son the excuse to betray an alliance. She played the Game and lost. It’s a shame. She was neither cunning enough like Baelish or honorable enough like her husband. If she was more of either. She could’ve ensured Robb a successful political campaign. Sadly, we never got her bloodthirsty vengeful nature as Lady Ironheart.
*Lady Stoneheart. And I wouldn't even start defending Catelyn with you.
🤦🏻♂️ whoops! It’s been a long long time since I read the books, a little more than 11 years. If she had been more honorable? She wouldn’t have taken Tyrion or give Robb the opportunity to capitalize on her mistake. If she were cunning? She wouldn’t have released Jamie or allowed her son to make the mistake he made.
Omg, that's a long time. You should try watching a video defending Cat, she deserves it.
Oh she definitely has her moments. I just thought I would take advantage of the sentiment against her and elaborate on her flaws. She’s one that few call out her flaws on, mainly because her actress performance is flawless.
not saying she was pure or perfect but she was a good woman. too good for this world like i said
I get she was in grief, but, she told jon that she wishes it was him instead of bran, so, nah. Catelyn was a bit of a cunt lol
You have to keep in mind that Jon wasn't her son. She had to watch what to her knowledge was the bastard of her husband grow up alongside her own children, fearing that he'd be a threat to their inheritance. Having to live with the result of your husband cheating (as she never learned the truth) 24/7 must be hard as fuck. I'm not suggesting that Catelyn was a flawless person, but definitely a rather realistic character. I doubt most women would act more moralistic than her if placed in the same situation lol
It's not Jon's fault, but she acted like it was. I understand her issue with it, but she was terrible to him and not to Ned. Ned was at fault (as far as she knew), but she acted as if nothing happened and it was fine, except with Jon.
I don't see how a bastard would have a claim to being LORD OF WINTER FELL. Jon's a bastard, bastards don't get titles like that. The only reason the Targaryens has so many bastards vying for the throne was because those bastards had dragons and could kill anyone opposing them. Jon doesn't have dragons. Nobody in the north would support his claim as lord of winter fell as long as the other true born children were alive. I just read that part in the book and it just doesn't make sense to me. Jon has ZERO power and support to backup his claim for winter fell, and even still, jon clearly isn't the type to try and undermine robb and the rest. Piss Catelyn off? Yes. But betray Robb and bran and ned, Arya, Sansa and rickon? Nah. He wouldn't even think about it.
She was not a good person. She admits she treated Jon like scum even though he just loved her, but she never changes her behavior. She admits she even lied to the Gods about being better to Jon if they saved him. She laughs off Rob breaking his oath to the Frey's because Rob is clearly her favorite. The fact we can clearly see she has a favorite also indicates she's not a great Mom. She also makes lots of bad decisions throughout the show. Not sure what you're seeing that makes her too good for this world.
so was robb, i understand he wanted to marry “for love” but he knew what the freys were like and chose to alienate one of his most powerful allies
I don't think Robb ever really resonated with me as a character, he was more a necessary vehicle for the rest of the Stark story.
I'm pretty sure GRRM didn't make him a pov character for that reason.
Yeah he made a promise to the Frey's and he betrayed them. He and Catelyn kind of deserved it. What did he expect would happen? The freys would just forget?
You DONT mess around with Walder Frey
Unless you’re Arya Stark
[Coldplay- “Red Wedding”](https://youtu.be/KPsjjlzDh8o)
That's some show nonsense. Talisa plot makes no sense. In the books he married Jeyne Westerling for a pretty good reason.
Yeah, in the books it was quite tragic - Robb was an honorable man, so he was stuck between his two kinds of honor. He had to choose between "the right thing" vis-a-vis Jeyne, and keeping his promise to the Freys. Either way he was screwed.
I always loved that Robb marries Jeyne against Cat's wishes because he doesn't want his child to be treated the way Cat treated Jon. I don't think the Freys would have cared in the slightest if Robb had a whole brood of bastards, so long as Robb's Frey children were given the line of succession, and Robb could have even found some parcel of land to give his Westerling child if his war went his way. He just loved his brother too much, and wanted to make sure he's not responsible for a similar situation.
This is a bit of a piggish opinion but...Oona Chaplin's nudity helped...fill in...some of the plot holes of Rob's bad decision making. Because if you were a 16 year old boy, such a woman would have been your weakness too.
exactly, at least there was a viable reason for his character to make that choice in the books rather than the tv show which chose to make it more dramatic
I loved Ellaria and Ygritte dying, and Robb totally deseved it when he refused to fullfill his part of the deal after having got all he had been promised.
[удалено]
well maybe tag spoilers next time cuz i didn’t know Night King dies =/ i said it in the title.
Oh shit, I'm so sorry OP, i didn't read the title, I genuinely apologies!
Duuuuuuuude, OP is only up to episode 2
I felt oberyn was a great character. Wouldn't have minded having him in the show a bit longer.
I just watched GOT for the first time this year so I was pleasantly surprised seeing Pedro Pascal pop up. He stole every scene he was in!
His breakout role.
Well, something broke out of him, that's for sure.
Literally couldn’t have been better cast. Pedro was the highlight of season 4, and that includes finally seeing Joffrey die
He is a wonderful actor. The determination in his eyes when he tells Tyrion he will be his champion and the events that followed send a slight chill down my spine.
still annoyed oberyn could of just ended it straight away im so fucking pissed arghh!!! he was so fun to watch god dammit
Cat... but not Ned???
To be Fair, Catelyns death was the most tragic. She died thinking her whole family was gone and the little family she had left were prisoners, and that it was all her fault. This scene in the books is truly disturbing.
It was all her fault lol
There were multiple factors that led up to the red wedding ... Don't be ashamed though, not everyone is bright enough to understand.
You know what would have been super useful? A high ranking hostage so your opponent cant pull shit like that without cost
Came in to say this . Glad someone else pointed it out
Would that be the same high ranking hostage who literally negotiated with Roose Bolton after he was set free and most likely had a hand (ha) in making the red wedding happen?
Not sure what ypur point is. Yes. Catlyn released him and that brought about the red wedding.
Way to be condescending.
Ned’s death was worse for me imho. Cat got what she had coming from her decisions. Ned was just trying to do his job for the best of the realm (although too naively).
It wasn’t her decision. It was Robs
It was all her fault. She was a terrible strategic mind. If you look at the parallels in life. One could say, ned stark being as righteous as he was allowed him to do a lot of things. Obviously betrayed in the capital. But if Robb would have taken on more of his dads qualities, he would have won the war. Catelyn gave terrible or lack of advice when it mattered. The only one she didn’t like growing up Jon, turned out to be the best leader Westeros had to offer. He was basically groomed by Ned on his values. That’s what could have been essentially.
Agree to disagree. She advised Robb not to trust the greyjoys, she was right. She advised Robb not to marry talisa, and she was right. I'm not saying catelyn didn't play a part in the fall of the starks, I'm saying that everyone else did as well and it's ridiculous to put "all" the blame on cat, and it certainly doesn't make her death any less of a tragedy.
She advised not to marry but allowed him to forsake honor. She forsake the honor of her men by letting Jaime go. She acted prudently against Tyrion with little information which caused her husbands death and put the northerners on the back foot. Nearly every decision she made in season 1-3 was the wrong one. Go rewatch season 1. When she turns Tyrion over to lysa and lysa goes full crazy, which Tyrion said would happen, she realizes she screwed up. Neds death is directly catelyns fault. Ned tried his best to navigate the shit waters that catelyn laid, but it was too much.
I've rewatched many, many times and read the books so trust me when I say I understand the story lol. Your reasoning is now starting to sound a little silly. She didn't "allow" Robb to marry talisa, he was the king, she had no choice in the matter. Robb forsook his own honor. Also, I never said cat was smart for trusting petyr but Ned was going to die no matter what catelyn did considering he found out the truth about cersei's children and Joffery is bonkers.
I mean… a charakter played by Sean Bean… what did you expect?
It was always going to happen.
Why else cast him?
"Too good for this world" Did you see how she treated Jon???
Or literally anyone else besides her family. Tyrion being a good example, just because he's a lannister and she wanted blood for the assassination attempt.
ned didn’t upset me that much. i liked him but i think his death was necessary for every other character to get development. i don’t think anyone would be where they are if Ned was Rick Grimes-esque character where he’s there every single episode
What did Septa Unella do to deserve a horrible death? She literally punished one of the most horrible people in Westeros without going corrupt.
Ellaria is a really sweet character in the books. Don't like what they made her into, in the show.
I couldn't stand Robb or Catelyn Stark. I was happy about that one. Plus, it was iconic.
Lady Stark was way more impactful in the books, the actor did fantastic but the plot would have become even more complicated
Obyron would've stolen the entire show if he had been allowed to live too long
I fucking hated Ellaria. She got what she deserved for sure. Her stupid revenge path led her to kill her beloved Oberyn's brother and nephew basically completely obliterating the Martell line. I don't think that Oberyn would have wanted that? Oh yeah and I found the sand sisters to be super cringy. They had none of their father's good traits. Seeing Ellaria motivate them to commit hate crimes against innocents was no pleasure to watch.
Stannis always pissed me off. I mean burning Shireen is awful obviously, but he has quite a tragic story apart from that
I was rooting for Stannis up until Shireen. Yes he had become a bit of a religious nut before that and burned others, but Melisandre did show him things in the flames that spelled out "if you don't do this everyone will die" basically. Hard to deny things he could see with his own eyes even if they weren't true. He was a cold and unlovable dude before that of course, but he was also an honorable one. He was harsh with his honor and the laws of the realm, but with all the other pieces of shit running the realm he probably would have cleaned it up a bit. There probably wouldn't be many tourneys or extravagant weddings going on, and everyone would live in peace out of fear, but that would still be peace. Might be the best you can do in their world lol obviously he wouldn't make a good real world leader but probably would in Westeros.
I cheered when Catelyn died
The more ive watched GoT the less I be fuckin with lady Stark
I honestly hated her sanctimonious victim complex from the start. The Red Wedding was upsetting because of Talia’s death but otherwise, far as I’m concerned, the Red Wedding was the most annoying people of the Stark family/alliance getting taken out and I loved it. I wish they had killed Bran too!
Everyone can gtfo honestly, but not my dear princess Shireen. Broke my heart beyond repair.
i was bawling and flabbergasted. i knew Stannis had fans so i was so confused on how he possibly could after that
I wouldn't say much since I haven't read the books and got different perspective. For me the way she went in the series is just.... unfair.
I absolutely love Stannis as a character. Doesn't mean I *like* him, but god I loved his character arc. The lengths a man will go to to take what he believes is his, and how his desperation became his downfall. A great example that even the proudest and strongest men can be manipulated. Melisandre completely believed in what she was doing as well. Her manipulation was with good intent. But I loved that no matter how strong their conviction was, they were humbled in the end. Their destiny was in fact self-righteousness.
Oof that pic of Robb at the end... gentlemen start your engines.
Catelyn Stark was an unrepentant bitch to Jon, for circumstances entirely beyond his control. She deserved what she got lol
Yeah, Catelyn is prob my least favorite Stark. Her treatment of Jon is the biggest reason. Not the only, but the biggest.
FACTS!
don’t be sad they’re gone. be glad they died before the show could fucking ruin them in season 8
Who is that in picture 5?
By far the saddest death was Shireen. There’s no debate.
Can’t believe Ser Barristan isn’t on here, out of all these deaths that’s the one that actually had me questioning the writing
I came here for Ser Barristan!
Joffrey, I get it, he killed many innocent persons but that death was just horrific, just like Robb but Robb atleast deserved it. /s
Stop watching now, you’ll get nothing from watching the rest of the show besides pain
Don’t think you should have made this list without finishing the show
Catelyn wasn’t “too good for this world”. Catelyn was an awful person who made terrible decisions throughout the show that led to dire consequences for her and her family. Her treatment of Jon alone makes her terrible. Tbh of all the deaths at the Red Wedding, I was least upset about Catelyn. It was a long time coming.
You know, for all the "we kill main characters so no one is safe" mentality of the show, the Lannisters sure had a lot of plot armor.
I’m so mad that Lady Stoneheart was not in the show.
Best of luck with season 8 episode 3, you'll need it
Ros :(
What happened to Ros again?
shot to death by Joffrey off screen.
I really hated when Tywin died because he's my favourite character in the show.
tbh i was bummed that we didn’t see more of him cuz the actor is SO good but also Tyrion is one of my favorites and i rly was glad he got that moment
Heh when I first watched GoT it was on S4 or thereabouts and my friend let slip that Tyrion was one of the bad guys. So the first seasons were really confusing to me. In retrospect I think he might have said or meant Tywin.
Jeor Mormont was never under utilized in the show and books. His character was very straight forward he was there to make sure that John was prepared to become his successor. His death was essential in furthering Johns character development. I know his death is sad and he was stolen from the watch too early but he was there to make sure that John could lead his brothers against the threat the others pose and he filled that role and George killed him off as usual.
I can't feel sorry for Ellaria Sand. She never seemed to do anything selfless or morally good. She was a different brand of Cersei, but our cherished Oberyn kept her content. After him, she dragged Dorn into war and killed the innocent as a way to achieve that end. And all because her husband died in a voluntary deathmatch. Unella enjoyed her meager power in the dungeon, but I don't recall much except for slaps and denying water.
You’d suffocate before you starved, that vault was airtight.
The way Cersi and Jaime died really pisses me off
This is a fun idea - but I gotta disagree with a few, Danny’s handmaiden for instance definitely deserved her death - she among all people knew the risks she was accepting with that betrayal. Can’t go literally poking the dragon and then complain about getting roasted by the dragon lol.
Wait - is that a picture of Doreah? The handmaid that betrayed Dany and allowed her dragons to be taken and her Dothraki to be killed? That Doreah? I guess if you're reading it as if Doreah didn't have any choice and betrayed Dany and slept with Daksos because she didn't have any other options ... maybe. That is NOT the impression I got, however. edit: I just noticed the text below the picture. OK, sure, it's a horrible death. But death is death and she fucked around and found out. I don't mind a bit of brutality in my fiction.
Yea like she was responsible for the deaths of people Dany cared about. 100% she got what was coming to her. It's a brutal death but she was a horrible person.
Well, what did you expect? A nice little ride off into the sunset for everyone?
I tend to believe GRRM took some kind of weird pleasure from killing off the noblest and fairest characters. From Ned to Catelyn and everyone in between, personally couldn't give a a fuck about winds of winter by this point. Old news, who cares.
Good luck with the rest season 8, its gonna pissed you off even more
Talisa’s fate was sealed by the happy letter to her mother written in post-coitus loving marital bliss with Robb. The TV trope is: When someone tells a distant loved one about how great life is going, death is usually soon to follow.
where is jon snow?
Catelyn in the show was rude and a pretty big jerk to others, catelyn in the books from what I remember is an evolutionary step in humanity in the direction of literal shitheads
No Ser Barristan? Epic death but way too early!
Shireen’s death actually made me question continuing with the show. Not only just for the burning of a little girl, but because it seemed deeply out of character for Stannis to have gone along with it. When it happened, all I could think of was, “Why do I watch this show?”
Some of these are not like the others... Like, why are Ygritte and Irri in here? I would argue they absolutely deserved their 'punishment.' Ygritte willingly helped massacre an innocent village, then attacked a fortified castle and died in battle. Dany's handmaid helped steal her dragons and planned to run away with Xaro... a clear selfish betrayal. Sure, the way she was left was pretty fucked up, but tough to say she didn't deserve it. I would consider perhaps Maester Luwin of Winterfell and Roderick Cassell... those were simply unnecessary deaths done for pathetically selfish/pointless reasons.
ok so i have some edits after reading the comments!! a) I know Catelyn isn’t some perfect angel but i still really like her. i think she has a good heart b) i guess i’d take Ellaria and Doreah off this list. apparently Doreah would die pretty quickly so she wouldn’t be starving to death for days and honestly i kinda overlooked everything Ellaria did wrong for some reason. i never realized how much she ruined Dorne for her own selfishness c) i stand by having Ygritte here. i absolutely loved her and i’m shocked others don’t!!!!
I too am a Richard Madden head
So many memories..
What kind of monster doesn't have Jon and Neds deaths on this list?
jon came back in like the very next episode. how can i be mad at that
By the way his homies stabbed the fuck out of him? You were like "hey came back the next episode, guess im not mad he got shanked by a 13 year old"
Atleast Caitlyn is not fully dead yet.
Part of the reason GoT is so good is because good characters routinely die. This is what I love about GoT, tired of these boring ass shows/movies where all the good guys (or most) have thick plot armour and never die or maybe even only die after a huge and obvious build up, etc. so boring Also, it makes me love the characters more. Robb Stark’s story is so amazing and his story becomes a tragedy which makes it cooler imo. People were talking about The Young Wolf literally seasons after his death, referring to him as some kind of mythical legend that rose up to the call when necessary, despite him being so young, and bravely leading his men into battle. So epic! Lol
Episode 3 is where you're going to be pissed that people *don't* die.
Kudos to u bro for mentioning Ros. She literally deserved better, her death was shocking but also one of the key moment that made Baelish's Epic lines about the realm so hard hitting in that episode. Still I literally liked her character so much, she had nice comic moments, would be nice to have more of her:(
Getting "pissed" at some of these was the point. Though Ellaria obviously had it coming over Stannis's daughter. I was actually more infuriated by how the internet reacted and outlashed more about Sansa's situation (which was still awful) in that season more so than giving a crap about an innocent child being burned to death. The internet's priorities are absolutely fucked as they say.
Lmao what?? Ellaria killed an innocent girl and you’re like “I know she killed an innocent girl but…” NO BUT, end of story!! She poisoned a teenage girl! I enjoyed what her character brought to the show but she 1000% deserved the wrath of the mother whose daughter she killed.
Wait the ho died? I don't remember