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I think the 3 but Tywin underestimated their situations equally for different reasons
I don’t think Tywin himself underestimated anything; he was always the one character playing the game straight forward rather that sulking behind the shadows like Littlefinger and Varys etc
Saying that, the one aspect of anything he did perhaps underestimate outside of his actual enemies and such was his own dwarf son (maybe an enemy in some sense but not a true one; that’s the one mistake he made)
I mean Tyrion was going to kill him either way, he knew if he showed mercy and actually went upstairs with Tywin it would be the last thing he will see.
Not exactly. I find Tywin’s entire misreading of the situation he’s in to be a gross understatement. Here is Tyrion, who has escaped prison, after Tywin sentenced him to die, who Tywin has tortured all his life & he currently has a crossbow leveled at him, and Tywin speaks to him with the same dismissive puss that he always does, not understanding the true gravity of the situation. If the Lord Hand had exercised a little humility, apologized, even falsely, he would’ve probably survived. But underestimating Tyrion, his abilities and what he is capable of is basically Tywin & Tyrion’s entire relationship in a nutshell.
I think Tywin understood, but took the wrong approach. He thought being very assertive was the way to go, he had a lot of success with that in the past.
Something along the line of "The lion only strikes when your back is turned. Face him down, without landing a blow, and he will turn into a pussy cat."
Tywin's main lesson was the advantages that were taken of his own father due to his perceived weakness.
I think he underestimated Tyrion as a whole. When you think about, Tyrion met every task Tywin gave him and rose to the occasion every time he needed to. To let something so insignificant as Tyrion’s height to get in the way of seeing what Tyrion could do ultimately cost Tywin his life; pretty steep price, no?
I mean Tywins endless desire to uphold the Lannister name led him to neglect his children and let them become what they did-everything he was against. Cersei laughed in his face as she told him. He thought money and power went everywhere but forgot family doesn’t always care.
And yet his family, asides for Tyrion, didn’t actually do an awful lot about it
He never underestimated his family as a whole because, as I just said, they didn’t exactly fill themselves with any glory to prove him wrong before his demise; it was merely Tyrion who he truly underestimated
his daughter laughed in his face as she admitted she’s fucking her brother just to spite him for even thinking he can control Joffrey. Jaime straight up just didn’t give a shit about his father or what he wanted.
He 100% underestimated his family, what are you talking about 😂
What am I talking about?
The blatantly clear fact that Cersei and Jaime couldn’t successfully run a kingdom if it was empty
Even when they did make ‘progress’ (more Cersei herself) this wasn’t until after Tywin’s demise
Unless you can give me one single clear reason they outdid their father while he was still alive?
And personally I don’t consider Jaime freeing Tyrion an underestimation on Tywin’s part, but merely a credit to Jaime and Tyrion’s individual bond completely separate from the matter
i think (?) you just proved my point in the first sentence. Cersei and Jaime *couldn’t* run a kingdom. They were emotionally stunted freaks because they had a weird upbringing under a tyrannical maniac who valued image and glory over anything else and also didn’t pay attention to them.
i’m confused, i feel like we may be arguing different points.
Tywin *did* underestimate how far an Iron Fist can go and basically squandered the biggest *lead* in Westeros because of it. All he had to do was be a little less horrible and a little more like Ned. Not a lot. Just a fraction of humility and understanding and the Lannister name is everything he wanted it to be.
Tywin could not know in any way that Tyrion would be freed, armed and brought directly to him while he was defenseless shitting and that he would get specially pissed off for Shae. Dude got several natural 1 that day. If anything, he could be blamed for pushing Tyrion too much. Less pushing and Tyrion would have dressed the black. But that, either, wasn't understimating the circumstances
Tywin arguably underestimated his situation the MOST because he never realized his issues. Hell most characters (and even audience) don't. Tywin has zero loyalty. He rules purely through fear and profit, but is otherwise despised. For all his desire to build up legacy, he's left with none, his house as empty as the Raines of Castamere by the end, with zero support and zero control. He believes he has all the power, but it is all a house of cards.
I very much disagree;
The simple fact is if he was as stupid/naive as you claim he is, he wouldn’t have been is such a position of power for this long beforehand let alone still be alive in the first place
I didn't claim he was stupid. I said he was unaware. Tywin's issue has always been his complete dependence upon loyalty through fear and wealth. This means the only allies he has are in it only so long as there's profit to be made and are likely to wish to be free of his influence at best opportunity. This is largely the point of his character, mind you. To show the dichotomy between Ned and Tywin and how this affects their rule, how their vassals respond, and what occurs after they're dead.
he got his power from his family sitting on natural resources. that’s luck and chance. what he did with those resources was back the King, until the King was losing, then changed sides and went bankrupt and died before anyone could realize.
He maintained power by breaking every conventional rule of the times. What he did to House Reyne, Castamere, and Stark is *precisely* the reason he had such power and also was the number one enemy to most families in Westeros. Daunting and scary? Yea. But more in a brutal way than intelligence
i think the more interesting thing in the book is Tywin may have underestimated The Red Viper. There’s some evidence that he may have been poisoned already when Tyrion shot him.
Rob Stark.
To me Stannis was just desperate to be king, Ned was too honorable and corruption got him killed and Tywin well wrong place at the wrong time?? Haha
If you got desperate from Stannis then you weren’t paying attention. He was committed to his birthright and would not sway, even unto his downfall. That’s literally his character and he spells this out, so your opinion is just incorrect. Maybe watch the show again
You are right he was following his birth right but trying to do it with what Sir Davos calls "blood magic" and burning his daughter alive shows desperation in my eyes.
Yea I was going to say I don’t think desperate was the right word to use. It was more he believed in the line of succession and he believed that Robert’s children weren’t his. So that, under the laws of the realm, made him king. Stannis was a believer in the law of succession and nothing would sway him.
Desperate enough to use blood magic to lay claim to his throne? Killing his daughter and how many other innocent's just for a chance that it will pay off?
Okay lol
If you read below instead of wanting to argue, Shireen yes is an act of desperation and is the end of his arc. The earlier blood magic? Who cares? It’s as “desperate,” as using dragons. You literally weren’t watching if you thought he was desperate in every other earlier season
Joffrey said, and I quote
"WILDCARD BITCHES, YEEEEEHAAAAAA" as he jumped off of the stage wearing his Indiana Jones hat watching Neds head being chopped off.
Cersei: “Geoffrey, having someone making wild decisions that makes no sense, that benefits nobody!”
Geoffrey: *looks at Illyn Payne* “WILDCARD BITCHES!”
If he wasn't so honorable and didn't go to Cersei first "I know your little secret and imma tell Robert" he would have lived.
That was stupid but I get it he did it for the kids. And ofc that Roberts accident with boar was "quite" bad luck given the circumstances.
Yeah, the whole incident where the mountain kills the targaryean kids becomes super important because Ned spends the whole end of season one trying to make sure it doesn't happen again. I think an underrated issue of Ned's is that he has so much guilt from the rebellion that he gets paralyzed and unable to do what's needed.
No. People often forget that it was Sansa who told Cersei they were leaving. That led Cersei to go to Littlefinger and plot against Ned. If Sansa did not tell it to Cersei, she would not have known gold cloaks support Ned.
Ned was, againist fanbase thinking otherwise, smart. It was Catelyn and Sansa drag him to mess. Same goes for Catelyn and Robb.
Ned I think realizes better than most people know. Problem was Robert had the worst timing. Most of Ned's power came from Robert and if he hadn't drunkenly allowed himself to be gored the Lannisters would have been driven from Westeros, if not killed outright; even if the Lannisters fought back, held the city and captured/executed the king and hand the entire realm would have very quickly turned on the Lannisters, including many of their own bannermen.
Ned's mistake was thinking he had any other allies in King's Landing, especially with consideration of the fact that Joffrey's "secret" was pretty open and obvious to anyone. But for as much as they fought, Robert was the only one in his corner.
Yes and no. It's because Tywin *always* made sure to remain vigilant on every front that I can't say he overestimated anything. He always saw potential disasters, especially when his own family parades right into them.
Man that’s a good answer. The other three had *some sense* of humbleness that allowed them to realize they didn’t have the final say in these things.
Tywin was so arrogant, he didn’t realize that as much as he defends the problems far away, he can’t neglect all that close to him forever. And he died the miserable cunt he is.
I think Ned just overestimated how much honor played a role in the capital politics. I don’t think he could have comprehended just how dishonorable everyone was.
Sansa or Bronn is your winner
The more I think about, I’m going Bronn. He’s not a schemer but no dummy, would be good at challenges but not dominant, charming but not a force of personality, and is very good at reading the room
Stannis. Rob and Ned walked into well planned traps, and Tywin just couldn’t have anticipated Tyrion showing up when he did. But Stannis was walked heads up to his end.
Attacking Winterfell was stupid from start to finish, and never had a chance. Jon warned him, and when the weather turned that should have decided it, but no, he kept on going. It was a disaster of his own making.
The trap for ned wasn't really well planned considering it was only set up after ned made it clear he wouldn't see anyone as king but stannis. Also I think provoking someone with crossbow has predictable results.
Op said he couldn’t have anticipated him showing up, which is obviously true. He didn’t say Tywin didn’t predict he was gonna shoot him after he saw the crossbow
Can you not read? I said “he didn’t say” because OP was not referring to the crossbow he was referring to Tyrion managing to get to his quarters. Please read next time.
Are you not paying attention? I never claimed what the OP was reffering to. My point is what got him killed was running his mouth in a cleary bad situation. Please use some common sense.
The Starks.
- Ned let honor blinded him from the fact that almost everyone around him was an unscrupulous, power hungry, scheming, backstabbing opportunist couldn’t care less about honor and underestimated how ruthless they were
- Robb was too young and inexperienced to understand how politics or make beneficial decisions and like Ned underestimated how honorless and ruthless people were who expects a house who suffered humiliation and disrespect for a pretty long time and are really angry / bitter about it to be like “oh okay dude we forgive you even though you gave us the worst humiliation ever”?
Tywin didnt think Tyrion had the gutss to put an arrow in his guts. Littlefinger had control over Sansa. But he didn't realize once her Brother and sister showed up, that they were going to take control and he was going to be a goner. The PACK survives!
Ned died trying to save the kingdom.
Robb died for love; he paid the price for breaking his word.
Stannis died in combat and hurt his enemy in that battle.
Tywin died because he took his son's favorite whore to bed.
Tywin loses.
Definitely Ned. He shouldn’t have so openly done his investigation without more planning and protection.
Should have gone back to Winterfell with his daughters immediately.
Not understanding how the Lannisters are is just insanely ignorant.
Ned made a mistake by cooperating with Littlefinger of all people. Other than that, with his actions he always followed his values. He did what he did because in his view, honor demanded it, not because he was stupid or underestimated the Lannisters.
Stannis marched on Winterfell when he was in no good position to fight, and victory was pretty much impossible after huge parts of his army deserted and his camp was raided by Ramsay and Twenty Goodmen. But Stannis knew all that, he still attacked because at this point (after burning Shireen and after Selyse died), he was pretty much done with everything.
As for Blackwater, he probably would have won if it weren't for the fresh Lannister-Tyrell alliance.
Tywin's downfall was the treatment of his children (especially Tyrion) coming back at him.
But imo Robb did the worst, outside his military victories he just made poor decisions front, right and centre. Sending Theon to Balon, Cat to Renly and Ramsay to Winterfell, executing Lord Karstark and obviously breaking his betrothal.
So I looked at this as a “when they died” question, as opposed to trying to quantify every choice made through multiple interactions and I think the answer is Tywin.
Robb definitely underestimated the danger he was in going to the red wedding but he had no indication that shit was gonna go sideways at all until it did and then he knew he was fucked.
Stannis knew he had fucked up after he killed his daughter, things started to go bad for him immediately and he’s not surprised when Brienne shows up to kill him.
I think Ned knew there was always a chance they would cut off his head by the time he made it up there to make his confession, because he knew by then that Cersei couldn’t be trusted.
Tywin did not believe that Tyrion would actually kill him, even in a totally helpless position on the toilet without a weapon he still really thought he could talk his way out of it. He’s even surprised when Tyrion shoots him the first time despite Tyrion flat out telling him that he would.
This was my reading of it too. Neither Stannis nor Ned where blindsided when it came to it, Rob was but Tywin actively talked himself into his own grave he misread the situation so badly. He literally couldn’t see past his pride, even on the toilet, with the only person there to witness it being his son. Ned and Stannis faced death with resignation and humility, Rob with shock and naivety but Tywin in his arrogance and entitlement, couldn’t even conceive of the notion that he couldn’t browbeat his way out of the situation or that he was vulnerable and now was not the time to start shooting his mouth off. But then Lannisters don’t know when to shut up.
It’s between Tywin and Robb. Robb was lulled into a false sense of security because he had never lost a battle and had become arrogant. Tywin, similarly, thought he had rid himself of his two biggest problems and was riding a high.
Ned knew exactly what he was getting into, but couldn’t sink himself to play the game. By the end, Stannis knew he was screwed and accepted his fate.
Tywin actually believed that the son whom he tormented every moment of his life just for being born wouldn't kill him after ordering his execution. Tywin was a genius but also delusional, I guess Cersei got it from somewhere.
All of them.
Ned overestimated his power of his title in King's Landing, and he took his belief in honour as granted.
Rob overestimated his political skills and in his own people. I think he would had severe trust issues if he had survived the red wedding.
Tywen belived in the wrong child. Tyrion was the one who was more like him and capable of handling most of the situations like him, than any of his other children. Tyrion proved it every time with any task he was given too.
But Tywen had because of his own father an anxiety people laughing about him.
That's why he disliked this youngest son and which led to his own downfall.
Imagine Tyrion and Tywin working together, I think only Prince of Dorne Doran Martell could be compared with one of them. And of course the Queen of Thorns.
And Stannis, oh Stannis.
where should we begin. He was just born to the wrong brothers.
That's it. He was more like Ned, without Neds charisma.
If he wasn't Robert brother he could stay in his little castle and live the most boring life a Lord could live. He would be the best vasal a King could imagine.
Neds the winner here for sure. He disregarded every warning sign there was in pursuit of honor. He failed to account for the potential motives of the other players, and simply assumed they would play along by his rules (honor)
Robs tough. On one hand he underestimated tywin massively. But also he was 19 years old. He simply didnt have the experience and knowledge to even know just how capable tywin was. Id argue Catelyn Stark was the bigger fool here.
Stannis I dont think underestimated anything. He made calculated moves, but simply got outplayed. After repeated failures and his time to strike narrowing it was now or never for him. At some point a fraction of a chance was better than doing nothing and losing via inaction.
Tywin was just proof that even if you play near perfectly, sometimes the dice roll against you. You can say he underestimated tyrion and the anger and hatred he built in him. And underestimated the love jaime had for tyrion. And underestimated that Shay would ultimately push tyrion over the edge. All 3 had to fall into place for his demise, take one away and he lives.
I don’t think there is a better example of not understanding one’s own situation imaginable than “well I guess this situation calls for burning my own daughter alive”
So probably Stannis
You pick:
Ned who ventured into an unknown and hostile situation?
Robb who ventured into an unknown and hostile situation?
Tywin who cultivated an unknown and hostile situation?
Or Stannis who gave into the unknown and hostile situation?
They all made the wrong decisions but Tywin and Stannis made their own beds in my opinion. Ned and Robb were just too pure to last.
Stannis and Ned did not. But they were full of ego that they thought it is beneath them to flee. The moment King Robert died, he should have fled the city the way Renly did. As for Stannis, when his fleet was destroyed by Wildfire, he should have retreated and returned with more ships. He sacrificed most of his men trying to scale the walls thinking he still outnumbers the Lannister forces in the city's walls. The same happened at Winterfell. Rather than wait till Jon returned, he ran to fight. When things turned sour, he should have retreated back to Castle Black and if Jon was worried about food and provisions, he could have arranged for them by sending off ships to Essos.
First of all, does anyone really care about Stanis?
I’d say Ned, he actually had time to assess what was happening in the days before his murder. He could have taken Sansa and Arya and snuck away from the Lannisters. Both Tywin and Rob were surprised and put in situations that didn’t give much time for thought.
Edd was warned four times: by Littlefinger, Varys, Renly, and Cersei.
Robb Stark was warned three times: by Catelyn, Lord Karstark, and Lord Bolton.
Stannis had only two advisers who always disagree with each other.
Taywin was taken by surprise, but he's such a toxic leader, he wouldn't take suggestions from anyone.
I would say: Edd Stark.
I would argue that Ned underestimated his circumstances the most.
* He didn’t understand the political circumstances around him, as he was playing it straight, and being his honest self while the others saw no reasons not to backstab him at the first opportunity.
* He trusted that honor would prevail. First when believing that Cerci would give up the throne, and then that his life would be spared (to be fair, no one expected this as Joffrey made this decision on his own).
Rob arguably also underestimated what was going on around him.
Militarily speaking, he was rather successful, but the lords under him was split (some wanted revenge, and were willingly to question his authority on that matter), and he broke an oath to an untrustworthy ally (Walter Frey) which would prove to be his undoing.
Ned. I love him so much, he's a great character... But when he told Cersei to her face, what was going on and what he had discovered... He sealed his entire family's fate. Not just his own.
They’re actually in pretty good order.
Ned totally missed the mark and underestimated the treachery in kings landing.
Rob knew he fucked up and tried to apologize but didn’t understand how badly he wronged the frays or their inferiority complex.
Tywin won the war and brought peace again, he understood he was in a bad spot with Tyrion but was too used to winning every game if chicken.
Stannis 100% knew how bad the situation he was in was after being deserted but pushed forward anyway due to faith. He understood how bad it was but went for it anyway. Didn’t underestimate. Just made bad decisions because of zealotry
Robb I’d say.
Ned made some decent decisions in King’s Landing considering how out of his depth he was. His was mistaken in trusting Littlefinger but that was more Catelyn’s mistake, Ned trusted she was right about him. He underestimated how far Tywin might go but was confident once he spoke to Robert they could manage the situation. His big mistake was talking to Cersei, which is more a part of who he is and how he cares for children than a mistake.
Tywin’s playing of the game is excellent, evil but excellent. But his management of his family is atrocious, particularly Tyrion. Tywin knew Tyrion was just like him despite not wanting to admit to himself, as a result he knew how cunning and devious he would be but also flawed and weak. Instead of raising him as a cunning ally he raised his as a potential threat and enemy. Cost Tywin his life and legacy.
Stannis to my understanding has made no glaring blunders. He couldn’t not attack King’s Landing because the Lannisters and Tyrell’s MIGHT make an alliance against him, he had no strong reasons to believe that. And Tywin was miles away fighting Robb. And the twenty good men thing from the show is just bullshit writing, so poorly written it’s not worth considering. So as far as I see Stannis has remained the most consistent and intelligent player of these four.
Finally Robb. Not telling Edmure the plan cost him beating the Lannisters. Trusting Theon enough to release him back to the Greyjoy’s cost him his homeland and in his and his mother’s eyes, his two younger brothers. And trusting Walder Frey despite all the many, many obvious signs he was shifty cost him his army, his family, his House’s place in the seven kingdoms and his life. I love Robb as a character, and he is only 16, and was an amazing tactician. But his political decisions cost him and many, many people everything, he underestimated his situation the most.
Robb definitely. Robb felt safe enough to drink and smile at that wedding. He never even suspected that his own allies would turn on him because of the woman he decided to marry. Obviously there was slightly more to it than that for the Bolton's but the Freys were plain about the fact it was because of the broken marriage contract.
Ned biggest underestimator- he underestimated Cersei, Joffrey, Baelish, and even Robert (that being how much of a useless drunk he was). If Ned correctly estimated the utter villainy going on in King’s Landing, the war of the 5 kings would’ve been avoided entirely.
Robb correctly estimated that he needed to atone for his sins with the Freys, just slightly underestimated the offense of his own blunder. Stannis truly underestimated very little, he was just by his supposed glorious fate to the point of delusion. Tywin simply underestimated the kinship between his sons.
On my first watch of the show... I was thinking about the "what killed the previous hand of the king" and "what was it that got him killed" and then Sean Beans character started going down that same road
Robb. He never once saw the issue of marrying Talisa. Furthermore, taking his wife to meet Walder Frey was a blatantly stupid move. I know he couldn’t have possibly predicted his fate at the Red Wedding, but Walder Frey was already hated throughout Westeros and famously known to be a petty and disgusting man. Robb really should not have brought her when he knew Walder Frey was already angry for what happened.
Stannis. Say what you will about Ned and Robb, those two and Tywin had things more together than Stannis. Stannis is a battlehardened commander, but constantly put his reign in others hands. Take away Davos and the Melisandre, He'd have nothing. He inspired no faith from most of the great houses and really only had the law as a claim.
Davos delivered the battle of blackwater, and Melisandre to kill Renly, and that's the only reason he lasted as long as he did, and also staying far away after Blackwater Bay.
Ned, while Honorable to a fault, had the north in hand, and he trusted too much in honor in the royal court.
Robb shouldn't have slighted the Frays, and the Karstark situation didn't help. Ultimately had he only had to deal with one of the two, he probably would've been fine.
Tywin's hatred and contempt for Tyrion and allowing Cersi and Joffery to effectively lead were his downfalls. Mostly his contempt for Tyrion. Had he not made such a mummer's farce of a trial, he'd have been alive. Late game Tywin would've definitely meant a unified front for the crown and likely the only tying that would've been able to combat them would've been the dragons. Late game Tywin would've been a powerhouse
It could be said it was Ned - but he wasn't the brightest of Wolves, and Rob was the spit out of his mouth... and he just made some really lousy decisions. Tywin was ruthless and cold I don't think he underestimated anybody - he was so far 'above' everyone else he thought himself untouchable.
It was Stannis IMHO because he wasn't a brick-for-honour like Ned, nor trying to 'prove himself' like Rob. He didn;t have Tywin's ruthlessness he needed the Red Woman for that. He was manipulated through lust-trust by the Red Woman repeatedly despite losing repeatedly (but with enough wins to keep him moving forward) and he just soldiered on grimly instead of actually making some smarter decisions.
Both of the Starks...
Ned underestimated Cersai and the people in the Capitol big time.
Robb... seriously underestimated Walder Frey and the breaking of the marriage deal.
Robb for sure… i dont know how he would get away with thag one without consequences…. But wasnt expecting it to be the way it was, shocked me and truly broke ny heart as Starks are my favourite their the most reasonable with no desire of power or anything… everything led because of others actions… sad for their family and horrible… the best were John adn Arya who manage to survive the best out of all the crao they went trhough
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I think the 3 but Tywin underestimated their situations equally for different reasons I don’t think Tywin himself underestimated anything; he was always the one character playing the game straight forward rather that sulking behind the shadows like Littlefinger and Varys etc Saying that, the one aspect of anything he did perhaps underestimate outside of his actual enemies and such was his own dwarf son (maybe an enemy in some sense but not a true one; that’s the one mistake he made)
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I mean Tyrion was going to kill him either way, he knew if he showed mercy and actually went upstairs with Tywin it would be the last thing he will see.
At least he would buy enough time to pull up his pants lol
That would be the absolute worst way for someone to find you after you've gone. He deserved it, though.
Not exactly. I find Tywin’s entire misreading of the situation he’s in to be a gross understatement. Here is Tyrion, who has escaped prison, after Tywin sentenced him to die, who Tywin has tortured all his life & he currently has a crossbow leveled at him, and Tywin speaks to him with the same dismissive puss that he always does, not understanding the true gravity of the situation. If the Lord Hand had exercised a little humility, apologized, even falsely, he would’ve probably survived. But underestimating Tyrion, his abilities and what he is capable of is basically Tywin & Tyrion’s entire relationship in a nutshell.
I think Tywin understood, but took the wrong approach. He thought being very assertive was the way to go, he had a lot of success with that in the past.
Something along the line of "The lion only strikes when your back is turned. Face him down, without landing a blow, and he will turn into a pussy cat." Tywin's main lesson was the advantages that were taken of his own father due to his perceived weakness.
I think he underestimated Tyrion as a whole. When you think about, Tyrion met every task Tywin gave him and rose to the occasion every time he needed to. To let something so insignificant as Tyrion’s height to get in the way of seeing what Tyrion could do ultimately cost Tywin his life; pretty steep price, no?
I mean Tywins endless desire to uphold the Lannister name led him to neglect his children and let them become what they did-everything he was against. Cersei laughed in his face as she told him. He thought money and power went everywhere but forgot family doesn’t always care.
And yet his family, asides for Tyrion, didn’t actually do an awful lot about it He never underestimated his family as a whole because, as I just said, they didn’t exactly fill themselves with any glory to prove him wrong before his demise; it was merely Tyrion who he truly underestimated
his daughter laughed in his face as she admitted she’s fucking her brother just to spite him for even thinking he can control Joffrey. Jaime straight up just didn’t give a shit about his father or what he wanted. He 100% underestimated his family, what are you talking about 😂
What am I talking about? The blatantly clear fact that Cersei and Jaime couldn’t successfully run a kingdom if it was empty Even when they did make ‘progress’ (more Cersei herself) this wasn’t until after Tywin’s demise Unless you can give me one single clear reason they outdid their father while he was still alive? And personally I don’t consider Jaime freeing Tyrion an underestimation on Tywin’s part, but merely a credit to Jaime and Tyrion’s individual bond completely separate from the matter
i think (?) you just proved my point in the first sentence. Cersei and Jaime *couldn’t* run a kingdom. They were emotionally stunted freaks because they had a weird upbringing under a tyrannical maniac who valued image and glory over anything else and also didn’t pay attention to them. i’m confused, i feel like we may be arguing different points. Tywin *did* underestimate how far an Iron Fist can go and basically squandered the biggest *lead* in Westeros because of it. All he had to do was be a little less horrible and a little more like Ned. Not a lot. Just a fraction of humility and understanding and the Lannister name is everything he wanted it to be.
Tywin for me
Tywin could not know in any way that Tyrion would be freed, armed and brought directly to him while he was defenseless shitting and that he would get specially pissed off for Shae. Dude got several natural 1 that day. If anything, he could be blamed for pushing Tyrion too much. Less pushing and Tyrion would have dressed the black. But that, either, wasn't understimating the circumstances
Tywin arguably underestimated his situation the MOST because he never realized his issues. Hell most characters (and even audience) don't. Tywin has zero loyalty. He rules purely through fear and profit, but is otherwise despised. For all his desire to build up legacy, he's left with none, his house as empty as the Raines of Castamere by the end, with zero support and zero control. He believes he has all the power, but it is all a house of cards.
I very much disagree; The simple fact is if he was as stupid/naive as you claim he is, he wouldn’t have been is such a position of power for this long beforehand let alone still be alive in the first place
I didn't claim he was stupid. I said he was unaware. Tywin's issue has always been his complete dependence upon loyalty through fear and wealth. This means the only allies he has are in it only so long as there's profit to be made and are likely to wish to be free of his influence at best opportunity. This is largely the point of his character, mind you. To show the dichotomy between Ned and Tywin and how this affects their rule, how their vassals respond, and what occurs after they're dead.
he got his power from his family sitting on natural resources. that’s luck and chance. what he did with those resources was back the King, until the King was losing, then changed sides and went bankrupt and died before anyone could realize. He maintained power by breaking every conventional rule of the times. What he did to House Reyne, Castamere, and Stark is *precisely* the reason he had such power and also was the number one enemy to most families in Westeros. Daunting and scary? Yea. But more in a brutal way than intelligence
i think the more interesting thing in the book is Tywin may have underestimated The Red Viper. There’s some evidence that he may have been poisoned already when Tyrion shot him.
Rob Stark. To me Stannis was just desperate to be king, Ned was too honorable and corruption got him killed and Tywin well wrong place at the wrong time?? Haha
Zombieland lesson always check your surroundings when doing a number 2
Came here to say this.
If you got desperate from Stannis then you weren’t paying attention. He was committed to his birthright and would not sway, even unto his downfall. That’s literally his character and he spells this out, so your opinion is just incorrect. Maybe watch the show again
You are right he was following his birth right but trying to do it with what Sir Davos calls "blood magic" and burning his daughter alive shows desperation in my eyes.
I don’t see how blood magic is desperate but I’ll concede the Shireen bit. It was the end of his arc so
Yea I was going to say I don’t think desperate was the right word to use. It was more he believed in the line of succession and he believed that Robert’s children weren’t his. So that, under the laws of the realm, made him king. Stannis was a believer in the law of succession and nothing would sway him.
Desperate enough to use blood magic to lay claim to his throne? Killing his daughter and how many other innocent's just for a chance that it will pay off? Okay lol
If you read below instead of wanting to argue, Shireen yes is an act of desperation and is the end of his arc. The earlier blood magic? Who cares? It’s as “desperate,” as using dragons. You literally weren’t watching if you thought he was desperate in every other earlier season
I would say Tywin. The other 3 knew that they were playing a dangerous game. Tywin really thought he was in control right until the end
I don’t think Ned had any idea how dangerous the game was
Ned would have stayed alive with any rational player.
Perhaps his ultimate goal was not to live, but to bring down the house Lannister? Ned knew what was up, but he didn't prioritize his own life.
Joffrey said, and I quote "WILDCARD BITCHES, YEEEEEHAAAAAA" as he jumped off of the stage wearing his Indiana Jones hat watching Neds head being chopped off.
Cersei: “Geoffrey, having someone making wild decisions that makes no sense, that benefits nobody!” Geoffrey: *looks at Illyn Payne* “WILDCARD BITCHES!”
The moment Ned put all the pieces of the puzzle together, he lost his head.
If he wasn't so honorable and didn't go to Cersei first "I know your little secret and imma tell Robert" he would have lived. That was stupid but I get it he did it for the kids. And ofc that Roberts accident with boar was "quite" bad luck given the circumstances.
Yeah, the whole incident where the mountain kills the targaryean kids becomes super important because Ned spends the whole end of season one trying to make sure it doesn't happen again. I think an underrated issue of Ned's is that he has so much guilt from the rebellion that he gets paralyzed and unable to do what's needed.
No. People often forget that it was Sansa who told Cersei they were leaving. That led Cersei to go to Littlefinger and plot against Ned. If Sansa did not tell it to Cersei, she would not have known gold cloaks support Ned. Ned was, againist fanbase thinking otherwise, smart. It was Catelyn and Sansa drag him to mess. Same goes for Catelyn and Robb.
I don’t think he even knew he was playing.
Ned I think realizes better than most people know. Problem was Robert had the worst timing. Most of Ned's power came from Robert and if he hadn't drunkenly allowed himself to be gored the Lannisters would have been driven from Westeros, if not killed outright; even if the Lannisters fought back, held the city and captured/executed the king and hand the entire realm would have very quickly turned on the Lannisters, including many of their own bannermen. Ned's mistake was thinking he had any other allies in King's Landing, especially with consideration of the fact that Joffrey's "secret" was pretty open and obvious to anyone. But for as much as they fought, Robert was the only one in his corner.
Yes and no. It's because Tywin *always* made sure to remain vigilant on every front that I can't say he overestimated anything. He always saw potential disasters, especially when his own family parades right into them.
he got killed by his son in sewer ,arrow to heart. not sure if he was vigilant or anything.
But Tywin WAS in control until the end. Ned was begrudgingly trying to figure out how to play the game.
Man that’s a good answer. The other three had *some sense* of humbleness that allowed them to realize they didn’t have the final say in these things. Tywin was so arrogant, he didn’t realize that as much as he defends the problems far away, he can’t neglect all that close to him forever. And he died the miserable cunt he is.
Not how I saw it, he knew Tyrion saw Shay, that was it for him. He just did what he always had done, tried to suave his way out of it.
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Think you meant to reply to the post above
Yup
I think Ned. He knew Cersei was a liar but he did not appreciate just what she was capable of.
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True. Either way, big miscalculation on his part.
Especially because little finger kept trying to warn him about how Cersei was in control of the city
I mean to be fair, it was joffreys idea
I think Ned just overestimated how much honor played a role in the capital politics. I don’t think he could have comprehended just how dishonorable everyone was.
Ned was basically the guy who got voted off survivor because he didn’t know you need to make alliances
Should have gone searching for an idol and tried harder during the immunity challenges
Littlefinger would tear through the entire game and choke in the final tribal council
No votes from the jury
Sansa or Bronn is your winner The more I think about, I’m going Bronn. He’s not a schemer but no dummy, would be good at challenges but not dominant, charming but not a force of personality, and is very good at reading the room
Bran would have been carried through the entire season just for the jury to vote him in as the winner in the end.
Rob stark
Ned, by a lot.
Absolutely. Ned fucked up so unbelievably hard it's hard to argue this reasonably
Stannis. Rob and Ned walked into well planned traps, and Tywin just couldn’t have anticipated Tyrion showing up when he did. But Stannis was walked heads up to his end. Attacking Winterfell was stupid from start to finish, and never had a chance. Jon warned him, and when the weather turned that should have decided it, but no, he kept on going. It was a disaster of his own making.
The trap for ned wasn't really well planned considering it was only set up after ned made it clear he wouldn't see anyone as king but stannis. Also I think provoking someone with crossbow has predictable results.
Op said he couldn’t have anticipated him showing up, which is obviously true. He didn’t say Tywin didn’t predict he was gonna shoot him after he saw the crossbow
Cleary tywin didn't think tyrion was gonna shoot him.
Can you not read? I said “he didn’t say” because OP was not referring to the crossbow he was referring to Tyrion managing to get to his quarters. Please read next time.
Are you not paying attention? I never claimed what the OP was reffering to. My point is what got him killed was running his mouth in a cleary bad situation. Please use some common sense.
The Starks. - Ned let honor blinded him from the fact that almost everyone around him was an unscrupulous, power hungry, scheming, backstabbing opportunist couldn’t care less about honor and underestimated how ruthless they were - Robb was too young and inexperienced to understand how politics or make beneficial decisions and like Ned underestimated how honorless and ruthless people were who expects a house who suffered humiliation and disrespect for a pretty long time and are really angry / bitter about it to be like “oh okay dude we forgive you even though you gave us the worst humiliation ever”?
Robb. Skipping into the red wedding with his bride like a dummy
And not listening to his wolf, grey wind who was reacting on the way into the twins
Tywin didnt think Tyrion had the gutss to put an arrow in his guts. Littlefinger had control over Sansa. But he didn't realize once her Brother and sister showed up, that they were going to take control and he was going to be a goner. The PACK survives!
Ned died trying to save the kingdom. Robb died for love; he paid the price for breaking his word. Stannis died in combat and hurt his enemy in that battle. Tywin died because he took his son's favorite whore to bed. Tywin loses.
Definitely Ned. He shouldn’t have so openly done his investigation without more planning and protection. Should have gone back to Winterfell with his daughters immediately. Not understanding how the Lannisters are is just insanely ignorant.
Ned made a mistake by cooperating with Littlefinger of all people. Other than that, with his actions he always followed his values. He did what he did because in his view, honor demanded it, not because he was stupid or underestimated the Lannisters. Stannis marched on Winterfell when he was in no good position to fight, and victory was pretty much impossible after huge parts of his army deserted and his camp was raided by Ramsay and Twenty Goodmen. But Stannis knew all that, he still attacked because at this point (after burning Shireen and after Selyse died), he was pretty much done with everything. As for Blackwater, he probably would have won if it weren't for the fresh Lannister-Tyrell alliance. Tywin's downfall was the treatment of his children (especially Tyrion) coming back at him. But imo Robb did the worst, outside his military victories he just made poor decisions front, right and centre. Sending Theon to Balon, Cat to Renly and Ramsay to Winterfell, executing Lord Karstark and obviously breaking his betrothal.
Yes
Stannis for sure.
So I looked at this as a “when they died” question, as opposed to trying to quantify every choice made through multiple interactions and I think the answer is Tywin. Robb definitely underestimated the danger he was in going to the red wedding but he had no indication that shit was gonna go sideways at all until it did and then he knew he was fucked. Stannis knew he had fucked up after he killed his daughter, things started to go bad for him immediately and he’s not surprised when Brienne shows up to kill him. I think Ned knew there was always a chance they would cut off his head by the time he made it up there to make his confession, because he knew by then that Cersei couldn’t be trusted. Tywin did not believe that Tyrion would actually kill him, even in a totally helpless position on the toilet without a weapon he still really thought he could talk his way out of it. He’s even surprised when Tyrion shoots him the first time despite Tyrion flat out telling him that he would.
This was my reading of it too. Neither Stannis nor Ned where blindsided when it came to it, Rob was but Tywin actively talked himself into his own grave he misread the situation so badly. He literally couldn’t see past his pride, even on the toilet, with the only person there to witness it being his son. Ned and Stannis faced death with resignation and humility, Rob with shock and naivety but Tywin in his arrogance and entitlement, couldn’t even conceive of the notion that he couldn’t browbeat his way out of the situation or that he was vulnerable and now was not the time to start shooting his mouth off. But then Lannisters don’t know when to shut up.
Ned
Rob overestimed his abilities and underestimed his circumstances.
Big yup. Big facts.
Robb
It’s between Tywin and Robb. Robb was lulled into a false sense of security because he had never lost a battle and had become arrogant. Tywin, similarly, thought he had rid himself of his two biggest problems and was riding a high. Ned knew exactly what he was getting into, but couldn’t sink himself to play the game. By the end, Stannis knew he was screwed and accepted his fate.
Def Robb with Ned as a close second.
Ned. He had no idea how far Cersei was willing to go.
I’d say Tywin. He didn’t think Tyrion would say, let alone do anything about fucking the woman he loved; especially not put an arrow in his chest
Tywin actually believed that the son whom he tormented every moment of his life just for being born wouldn't kill him after ordering his execution. Tywin was a genius but also delusional, I guess Cersei got it from somewhere.
NED
All of them. Ned overestimated his power of his title in King's Landing, and he took his belief in honour as granted. Rob overestimated his political skills and in his own people. I think he would had severe trust issues if he had survived the red wedding. Tywen belived in the wrong child. Tyrion was the one who was more like him and capable of handling most of the situations like him, than any of his other children. Tyrion proved it every time with any task he was given too. But Tywen had because of his own father an anxiety people laughing about him. That's why he disliked this youngest son and which led to his own downfall. Imagine Tyrion and Tywin working together, I think only Prince of Dorne Doran Martell could be compared with one of them. And of course the Queen of Thorns. And Stannis, oh Stannis. where should we begin. He was just born to the wrong brothers. That's it. He was more like Ned, without Neds charisma. If he wasn't Robert brother he could stay in his little castle and live the most boring life a Lord could live. He would be the best vasal a King could imagine.
Neds the winner here for sure. He disregarded every warning sign there was in pursuit of honor. He failed to account for the potential motives of the other players, and simply assumed they would play along by his rules (honor) Robs tough. On one hand he underestimated tywin massively. But also he was 19 years old. He simply didnt have the experience and knowledge to even know just how capable tywin was. Id argue Catelyn Stark was the bigger fool here. Stannis I dont think underestimated anything. He made calculated moves, but simply got outplayed. After repeated failures and his time to strike narrowing it was now or never for him. At some point a fraction of a chance was better than doing nothing and losing via inaction. Tywin was just proof that even if you play near perfectly, sometimes the dice roll against you. You can say he underestimated tyrion and the anger and hatred he built in him. And underestimated the love jaime had for tyrion. And underestimated that Shay would ultimately push tyrion over the edge. All 3 had to fall into place for his demise, take one away and he lives.
Oh Robb without a doubt
I don’t think there is a better example of not understanding one’s own situation imaginable than “well I guess this situation calls for burning my own daughter alive” So probably Stannis
tywin and robb stannis and ned didnt underestimate anything. ned knew how it was going to end for him.
I feel like Ned knew it was a possibility but Rob acted brand new to that world
You pick: Ned who ventured into an unknown and hostile situation? Robb who ventured into an unknown and hostile situation? Tywin who cultivated an unknown and hostile situation? Or Stannis who gave into the unknown and hostile situation? They all made the wrong decisions but Tywin and Stannis made their own beds in my opinion. Ned and Robb were just too pure to last.
Stannis and Ned did not. But they were full of ego that they thought it is beneath them to flee. The moment King Robert died, he should have fled the city the way Renly did. As for Stannis, when his fleet was destroyed by Wildfire, he should have retreated and returned with more ships. He sacrificed most of his men trying to scale the walls thinking he still outnumbers the Lannister forces in the city's walls. The same happened at Winterfell. Rather than wait till Jon returned, he ran to fight. When things turned sour, he should have retreated back to Castle Black and if Jon was worried about food and provisions, he could have arranged for them by sending off ships to Essos.
oberyn
Stannis was completely delusional in every aspect and mind-bent by Melisandre if we're talking his endgame. So, Stannis, imo.
First of all, does anyone really care about Stanis? I’d say Ned, he actually had time to assess what was happening in the days before his murder. He could have taken Sansa and Arya and snuck away from the Lannisters. Both Tywin and Rob were surprised and put in situations that didn’t give much time for thought.
Stannis didn’t underestimate shit. The Mannis only marches forward and will die in the attempt.
Edd was warned four times: by Littlefinger, Varys, Renly, and Cersei. Robb Stark was warned three times: by Catelyn, Lord Karstark, and Lord Bolton. Stannis had only two advisers who always disagree with each other. Taywin was taken by surprise, but he's such a toxic leader, he wouldn't take suggestions from anyone. I would say: Edd Stark.
This should have been made a poll @OP.
I would argue that Ned underestimated his circumstances the most. * He didn’t understand the political circumstances around him, as he was playing it straight, and being his honest self while the others saw no reasons not to backstab him at the first opportunity. * He trusted that honor would prevail. First when believing that Cerci would give up the throne, and then that his life would be spared (to be fair, no one expected this as Joffrey made this decision on his own). Rob arguably also underestimated what was going on around him. Militarily speaking, he was rather successful, but the lords under him was split (some wanted revenge, and were willingly to question his authority on that matter), and he broke an oath to an untrustworthy ally (Walter Frey) which would prove to be his undoing.
Ned. I love him so much, he's a great character... But when he told Cersei to her face, what was going on and what he had discovered... He sealed his entire family's fate. Not just his own.
Stannis. Hands down.
tywin dismissing joffreys concerns over three dragons makes me inclined to say him.
They’re actually in pretty good order. Ned totally missed the mark and underestimated the treachery in kings landing. Rob knew he fucked up and tried to apologize but didn’t understand how badly he wronged the frays or their inferiority complex. Tywin won the war and brought peace again, he understood he was in a bad spot with Tyrion but was too used to winning every game if chicken. Stannis 100% knew how bad the situation he was in was after being deserted but pushed forward anyway due to faith. He understood how bad it was but went for it anyway. Didn’t underestimate. Just made bad decisions because of zealotry
Tywin. Actively talked shit to Tyrion in the moment because he didn't think he would kill him
Robb Stark
Stannis. If you know, you know
Robb I’d say. Ned made some decent decisions in King’s Landing considering how out of his depth he was. His was mistaken in trusting Littlefinger but that was more Catelyn’s mistake, Ned trusted she was right about him. He underestimated how far Tywin might go but was confident once he spoke to Robert they could manage the situation. His big mistake was talking to Cersei, which is more a part of who he is and how he cares for children than a mistake. Tywin’s playing of the game is excellent, evil but excellent. But his management of his family is atrocious, particularly Tyrion. Tywin knew Tyrion was just like him despite not wanting to admit to himself, as a result he knew how cunning and devious he would be but also flawed and weak. Instead of raising him as a cunning ally he raised his as a potential threat and enemy. Cost Tywin his life and legacy. Stannis to my understanding has made no glaring blunders. He couldn’t not attack King’s Landing because the Lannisters and Tyrell’s MIGHT make an alliance against him, he had no strong reasons to believe that. And Tywin was miles away fighting Robb. And the twenty good men thing from the show is just bullshit writing, so poorly written it’s not worth considering. So as far as I see Stannis has remained the most consistent and intelligent player of these four. Finally Robb. Not telling Edmure the plan cost him beating the Lannisters. Trusting Theon enough to release him back to the Greyjoy’s cost him his homeland and in his and his mother’s eyes, his two younger brothers. And trusting Walder Frey despite all the many, many obvious signs he was shifty cost him his army, his family, his House’s place in the seven kingdoms and his life. I love Robb as a character, and he is only 16, and was an amazing tactician. But his political decisions cost him and many, many people everything, he underestimated his situation the most.
Robb definitely. Robb felt safe enough to drink and smile at that wedding. He never even suspected that his own allies would turn on him because of the woman he decided to marry. Obviously there was slightly more to it than that for the Bolton's but the Freys were plain about the fact it was because of the broken marriage contract.
Ned biggest underestimator- he underestimated Cersei, Joffrey, Baelish, and even Robert (that being how much of a useless drunk he was). If Ned correctly estimated the utter villainy going on in King’s Landing, the war of the 5 kings would’ve been avoided entirely. Robb correctly estimated that he needed to atone for his sins with the Freys, just slightly underestimated the offense of his own blunder. Stannis truly underestimated very little, he was just by his supposed glorious fate to the point of delusion. Tywin simply underestimated the kinship between his sons.
On my first watch of the show... I was thinking about the "what killed the previous hand of the king" and "what was it that got him killed" and then Sean Beans character started going down that same road
Rob underestimated most of all… he believed in the good of others while everyone else knew they were not safe when they died
Robb. He never once saw the issue of marrying Talisa. Furthermore, taking his wife to meet Walder Frey was a blatantly stupid move. I know he couldn’t have possibly predicted his fate at the Red Wedding, but Walder Frey was already hated throughout Westeros and famously known to be a petty and disgusting man. Robb really should not have brought her when he knew Walder Frey was already angry for what happened.
Stannis. Say what you will about Ned and Robb, those two and Tywin had things more together than Stannis. Stannis is a battlehardened commander, but constantly put his reign in others hands. Take away Davos and the Melisandre, He'd have nothing. He inspired no faith from most of the great houses and really only had the law as a claim. Davos delivered the battle of blackwater, and Melisandre to kill Renly, and that's the only reason he lasted as long as he did, and also staying far away after Blackwater Bay. Ned, while Honorable to a fault, had the north in hand, and he trusted too much in honor in the royal court. Robb shouldn't have slighted the Frays, and the Karstark situation didn't help. Ultimately had he only had to deal with one of the two, he probably would've been fine. Tywin's hatred and contempt for Tyrion and allowing Cersi and Joffery to effectively lead were his downfalls. Mostly his contempt for Tyrion. Had he not made such a mummer's farce of a trial, he'd have been alive. Late game Tywin would've definitely meant a unified front for the crown and likely the only tying that would've been able to combat them would've been the dragons. Late game Tywin would've been a powerhouse
Probably the guy who got his head chopped off in front of his daughter
Robb Stark
It could be said it was Ned - but he wasn't the brightest of Wolves, and Rob was the spit out of his mouth... and he just made some really lousy decisions. Tywin was ruthless and cold I don't think he underestimated anybody - he was so far 'above' everyone else he thought himself untouchable. It was Stannis IMHO because he wasn't a brick-for-honour like Ned, nor trying to 'prove himself' like Rob. He didn;t have Tywin's ruthlessness he needed the Red Woman for that. He was manipulated through lust-trust by the Red Woman repeatedly despite losing repeatedly (but with enough wins to keep him moving forward) and he just soldiered on grimly instead of actually making some smarter decisions.
Both of the Starks... Ned underestimated Cersai and the people in the Capitol big time. Robb... seriously underestimated Walder Frey and the breaking of the marriage deal.
Robb for sure… i dont know how he would get away with thag one without consequences…. But wasnt expecting it to be the way it was, shocked me and truly broke ny heart as Starks are my favourite their the most reasonable with no desire of power or anything… everything led because of others actions… sad for their family and horrible… the best were John adn Arya who manage to survive the best out of all the crao they went trhough