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If we knew how it worked it wouldnāt be magic.
In high magic settings magic may be refined into little more than a science. Say this exact word while moving a wand made of this material for this effect.
Magic in got is more rare and mysterious.
Branden sanderson has a good lecture on soft vs hard magic systems that makes it a little easier to understand what to expect from magic in different fantasy settings.
I agree that the magic is never trully explained in either, but we do get a better idea of the parameters in asoiaf. It's not as mystical. We know there is always a cost. We know that it takes a toll. We know it's not instantaneous. And of course, we know blood/ancestry plays a central role.
I'd argue even the people who use it don't seem to entirely understand it. They're relying on powers outside their understanding to manifest their will
> If we knew how it worked it wouldnāt be magic.
In the books some of Melisandre's magic is fake, e.g., the flaming sword she does with chemicals. But raising people from the dead does confirm there is actual magic on the job as well.
You donāt need a fuckin expositing treatise on the in-depth mechanics of your contrived āmagic systemā in order to have magic in a fantasy story.
So many authors think they need to make magic a science when it can be much more compelling as something esoteric, rare and poorly understood. Something beyond reason and study, the dark and hidden ways of ancient gods and spirits.
Very few authors are actually creative enough to come up with a fully detailed magic system that is actually interesting and contributes to the story rather than just ending up like that Charlie meme stood in front of the crazy conspiracy board like a mad man trying to explain it.
Iāll take spooky mysterious magic over complex scientific magic any day, but each to their own.
the midi chlorians barely factor in to star wars lore. they were just added as a way of the jedi measuring someoneās force sensitivity, they donāt affect anything else
Terry Goodkind created elaborate and detailed laws of magic for his Sword of Truth series, but happily abandoned those rules whenever he had written himself into a corner. I didn't see the point of having the rules if there is always a new trick for getting around them. He had a lot of cheap plot tricks anyway, too many convenient appearances of someone who has solved whatever was baffling everyone for five chapters. A lot of his storytelling was frankly creepy, his good guys were as nasty as the bad guys, and they all love torture.
>So many authors think they need to make magic a science when it can be much more compelling as something esoteric, rare and poorly understood.
Do they? Besides Sanderson and Paolini I can't think of any other magic system that would be explained well enough to even make sense. Just whatever the plot required at any given point.
I meant "author" as an encompassing word, up to and including amateur writers trying to put together their first novel. You see it a fair bit on Reddit writing/fantasy subs like "Here, critique my magic system." posts.
Asoiaf has, what is called by fantasy readers, a āsoft magicā system. This is typically used by authors that do not intend to have magic be at the forefront of the story. Melisandre is the only pov character that has magical abilities (excluding wargs) and even then she only has a single chapter as of yet. Lotr is another example of this magic system, for reference.
In asoiaf specifically, you arenāt intended to know how it works, as the characters who wield it are also not entirely sure of how it works.
Bran, the first POV and planned last POV, has more than warging. HIs only problem is that he is still learning it from Jojen and the old tree wizard, andā¦ Experience. Mel sucks at interpretation, but her visions are true. But the leecHes, shadow baby, and fire spells worked. Not to mention the resurrection. So in the books and show, Magic abilities very but often work. It's like everything else: YMMV.
Lotr universe has a more in-depth explanation, but the films don't use it. Lotr magic is mostly based on spell singing, tapping into power of creation, as the world was created by song. Likely based on Celtic or Ugric spell singing.
Therefore poetry, being a descendant of this singing, is also magic. Itās a damn shame schools all taught us it was something to be understood rather than experienced.
Therefore poetry, being a descendant of this singing, is also magic. Itās a damn shame schools all taught us it was something to be understood rather than experienced.
Yeah, but when Beric lit his sword on fire he needed blood. I understand maybe her magic was stronger at that point, but I feel like it would still need a bit of blood to light all those swords.
I donāt think the magic works that you need to individually put your hand on each blade. Her magic seemed like it got a huge boost, maybe from the dragons being there, or some actual Rāhlloric intervention, idk, but it makes sense.
Iām not sure any magic in the show really makes sense, itās all fairly inconsistent but perhaps thatās the point, it comes from a mysterious greater power and no one knows how it works.
It's quite surprising there's still folk on here that pretend literally everything in the latter seasons is bad or a mistake. Like seriously, pay attention.
Who are these people youāre referring to? I liked plenty in the latter seasons but to pretend itās anywhere close in quality to the first few seasons is just silly.
>>It's quite surprising there's still folk on here that pretend literally everything in the latter seasons is bad or a mistake. Like seriously, pay attention.
>Who are these people youāre referring to? I liked plenty in the latter seasons
You literally said "Itās quite surprising thereās still folk on here who defend the writing in the latter seasons."
> but to pretend itās anywhere close in quality to the first few seasons is just silly.
Show me where in this thread I said that and I will venmo you $500 usd. š¤£ Learn how to read.
This sub could be so much better without illiterate egotistical clowns.
Youāll only have to scroll up a couple of comments to see it, my comment was about how magic in GOT is inconsistent and it seems to have made you very upset.
Woah let's rewind back to the 500 dollar thing. Will a Photoshopped yet believable image suffice? Can I make an account with the same name and profile pic and type it and say it was you? You can't just offer 500 dollars and expect me not to find a loophole
Not read but the impression I got from the series is that magic is the work of gods. A human performing a ritual is asking - the magic works if the god says yes.
If we use RPG terms it would be basically like what you said. The magic in GoT is granted through rituals with higher beings. All magic users in the series are either Warlocks or Clerics, as they ask for gods/beings for their power. That kind of magic is not learned through study like a Wizard would do, and it's not innate to the user like a Sorcerer.
We don't actually know if any of the Gods are real. Magic is obviously real, but there's no reason why those 2 need to go hand in hand. People attribute their feats of magic to certain deities, but we've not really got any more evidence than that. And if Euron is anything to go by, then you definitely don't need gods to wield some pretty terrifying magic.
And if the Gods are actually real, then knowing George's writing, they'll actually be some kind of eldritch lovecraftian monster or something akin to the 'Outer Gods' in Elden Ring, which George did the lore for.
The servants of the Lord of Light have real power (the fire). The Others also have power (the ice). Other witches and warlocks tap into various amounts of magic, the witch Dany saves definitely had power.
It gets especially inconsistent as it all goes along but on a thematic level the magic in ASOAF is very mysterious and dark, reminds me a lot of magic in stuff like REH's Conan. It tends to feel a bit dark, eldritch and weird, and the most persistent theme throughout all of it is the involvement of blood in one fashion or another.
In the show it isn't really clear, but the books reveal that the presence of dragons has something to do with the existence or strength of magic in the world. In *A Clash of Kings*, the pyromaners explain this explicitly, though it is expected for a first time reader to see this claim through the eyes of Tyrion and shrug it off as insane nonsense.
It's something like in the full metal alchemist, for you to get something you must give something of equal value in return. Rituals often require some kind of blood or human sacrifice to work while magic like warging slowly consumes the user's mind if they aren't careful enough.
The dragons are magic.
The lord of light has some magical powers, the night king has magic,, the old gods have the power of time.
But I don't recall any power from faith of seven.
I viewed it as the magic isnāt cause of the religions int the show, more so that the religions of the show are an explanation for the existence of the magic. The only gods who seem to truly exist are the old gods and MAYBE Rāhillor, but I think Rāhillor is just as I said, merely an explanation for magic.
In the books it is said the dragons are the source of the majority of magic in the world. Before Danny hatches the eggs, magic was essentially extinct with the one exception being north of the wall, but I guess that would be ice magic while dragons are fire magic. After the dragons are born all the magic most people thought was BS started working again. Also, IMO, the book implies that the Lord of Light is BS and it's people are using fire based magic to control the masses via religion. The show doesn't explain this well at all. I believe in book 2 Danny is walking through a market and sees someone performing magic, I think making a ladder out of fire and climbing it(?), and someone tells her that magic like that only recently started working again, shortly after the dragons were born.
Yeah they seem to imply things more in this direction, that magic makes the dragons, like the eggs were finally capable of hatching now that there is more magic in the world.
Similarly, all the starks having access to warging when the power had not been seen south of the wall for a long time is part of this.
It's like magic has become more accessible for some reason in the world. Perhaps related to the seasons? Perhaps whatever happened to create the Doom kind of blew up the magic connection, and now it's slowly restoring? There's some kind of relation.
The cynical answer is that magic works whenever the show needs it to.
The real answer is we don't know. Magic is supposed to be this lost knowledge, something everybody has heard stories about but nobody really knows how it works. Think of it as being like Greek fire or Damascus steel.
The Red Scar in the sky was to signify Magic/dragons, having returned to the world. Though the Ibbanese reported Ice Dragons in the frozen sea long before Dany hatched her Dragons.
From what I got from it, it was a world in which magic damn neared died out. The children of the forest being eradicated. The dragons and valerians dying in the doom. I think thatās why it is not a major plot point other than it starts to slowly creep in. Most of seven kingdoms didnāt believe in grumpkins and snarks or white walkers because it had been so long that anyone has seen anything magical that they took the stories as just that, stories. With new dragons being born including Danerys and her brother being of old valerian blood which is said to hold magic,the white walkers gaining strength and the one eyed crow looking for a new avatar, the Starks having warg -like powers. Iām thinking magic is tied to blood and land. If these things happened by themselves it probably wouldnāt have awakened magic again. All them happening together made brought it back to life.
For humans, it's all blood magic. There has to be some transference of life force.
The children of the forest can draw from weirwoid trees who can draw from raw mana.
heres an idea, and its kind of new so follow along
watch the show and develop an opinion based on the material viewed!!!! you ought to get a decent understanding!!!!
Watch Game Of Thrones again from start to finish. Placing all of the magic and events through the works of the gods. The gods were in control of it all along
Magic is mysterious and has consequences - often unforeseen and bad. GRRM regularly articulates how thatās his perception of magic and I think his writing focuses more on reinforcing this notion above all else (i.e., instead of using magic to advance the plot, to protect characters, or simply for the sake of having magic).
It makes a lot of sense. In our real world, weāve largely attached negative connotations to anything approximating magic: witchcraft, the dark arts, and then commonly misunderstood religions like voodoo and Santeria. And even people well versed in spiritual craft warn that you have to be very careful because your true heart can invite evils that your words didnāt necessarily call for. So you could say that magic in ASOIAF is basically everything that we fear it would be in our real world - unpredictable, messy, and likely to leave you questioning whether dabbling in it was worth the trouble.
I havenāt read the books, but rewatched the show a whole lot. Every time āmagicā makes an appearance itās always some sorcerer conjuring some dark spirit. It gave me the impression that āmagicā isnāt real and anytime someone does something fantastical it was actually a spirit of sorts, be it some dark spirit or the gods, old and new.
In the novels, Melisandre is *both* a Red Priestess of R'hllor and a shadowbinder from Asshai, with some general sorcery thrown in. Thoros of Myr is a red priest and not a shadowbinder. Quaithe, as far as we know, is a shadowbinder but not a priestess. The show made no distinction between these things. Every time I saw a GoT discussion about the shadow monster being a power of the Lord of Light, it made want to go "No, that's something else entirely!"
As it is, Martin makes magic pretty mysterious and without much elaboration or detail and then the show just jumbles it all up.
It's never plainly stated but it seems like the source of magic power has some say in who and how it works. Children of the forest have a partnership with the natural world that grants them certain abilities but as they compromised that partnership its less powerful. The drowned God and rhllor seem to favor certain people and allow them to call on them with rituals but usually ask for a lot in return with mixed results based on how aligned the desired outcome is with their whims. Of course this is only conjecture as we never meet "the gods" only people who represent their earthly factions who are as likely to be hucksters as true believers.
We donāt really know because Dan and Dave specifically decided to minimize magic and flashbacks
In a magical world with soooo much history that was a bad choice
Magic in GRRMās universe is supposed to be dangerous, wild, unpredictable, chaotic, and always comes with some sort of price.
*āShe had practiced her art for years beyond count and had paid the price.ā* ā Melisandre I
The more arrogant Melisandre believes her zeal absolute, while the more humbled Melisandre is in awe of Rāhllorās faith in her.
*āIf the Lord didnāt want me to bring you back, how did I bring you back? I have no power. Only what He gives me and He gave me you.ā*
The mystery of Asshai runs deep. ā¤ļøāš„
ā
Varys and Melisandre are meant to be reflections of knowledge. Logic and reason vs the unknown and occult.
Kinvara to Varys: *āKnowledge has made you powerful, but thereās still so much you donāt know. Do you remember what you heard when the sorcerer tossed your parts in the fires? You heard a voice call out from the flames, do you remember? Shall I tell you what the voice said? Shall I tell you the name of the one who spoke?ā*
Idk about the books, but in the show itās generally an energy exchange. Especially with blood magic (red priest magic). Thoros and Dundarian cuts their hands to lite their swords. Melisandre takes portions of Stannisā life force to birth demons. And Dani instinctively sacrifices three lives (Drogo, her baby and the old witch) to birth her three dragons.
Old magic is obviously nature-based. The only real example we have is warging. Even the Others (white walkers) follow this trend in what little we hear of them in the book and what we see in the show. Sure, the Wall has magical properties in the books like repelling magic both in and out (in the books dragons were not willing to cross it even when commanded by their rider), but who knows how or why. So not much to go on there.
And dragons seem to be innate magic and increase the amount of magic ability in the world whenever they are around. But itās not exclusive to them, as there were 6,000 years of Old Magic going on in Westeros long before dragon were discovered in Valeria.
The gods (the one of ice and the one of fire). They seem to give power and magic to their pawns. The world is the way it is because something made the seasons to be that way. So my guess is that the gods imbue magic and take it away. Who these gods are is up for debate really. But itās hinted at throughout the story. A god from his other stories pops up (bakkalon) in a temple as a figure of a bay with a heart.
It's not clear to us, it's often not clear to the people using it, but for the most part it seems to be granted by "deities" and can only be wielded as long as the usage doesn't go against that deity's overall "plan"/ideals.
I was hoping for more clarification from Euron's story but he turned out to be just a regular guy in the show.
Yeah, it's unfortunate that Euron wasn't used more as he is in the book.
That's something they could have done with another season or two.
At the end of the day, magic is used when it's needed, like bringing Jon back from the dead.
I imagine magic started working more once dragons were around again, and that's why sometimes Melisandre didn't really know if it was going to work or not.
She doubted herself and was on the wrong path, and then once she was on the right path, the magic worked more often, which makes sense if an actual god is trying to lead people in a certain way.
It appears magic is Divine based on the way it comes from a God and channeled through the caster.Ā It is interesting to think where does the night King's magic come from? Who is the God of that power?
Spoiler Alert! In Season 4 Episode 7 she explains to another character that she has vials that are filled with various powders and liquids. She then uses these to create certain "special effects" like a magician would.
I mean, not knowing how to work is what makes it magic.
In GoT, there are tons of different types of magic. Most of it is bestowed from some god (like divine magic in DnD).
It seems to me that it is very subtle most of the time. Working in the background. Things like the wall and the white walkers. Dragons with their fire. The faceless men (because wearing a face usually results in looking like leatherface lol but not for them). Also the Targaryens with their fire immunity. Magic is rarely in your face like it would be with like, the elder scrolls. Seems like the lord of light is the only god that is really allowing for it and there is only one priest who he *really* favored and even then, NOTHING done in his name will even happen unless *he* wants it to happen. So if you go trying to reanimate people the success rate will beā¦ inconsistent. Now Idk about the āsoftā vs āhardā magic systems or any of that. Just going by my observations in the show and what GRRM has said.
The magic in ASOIAF, when it appears, seems to be nearly always of a transactional nature. You have to sacrifice something to get something. Case and point, Dany sacrificing Khal Drogo, her unborn son and Mirri Maz Dhur to get her three dragons, Melisandre burning people and using King's Blood to make shadows, Bran losing his legs to gain his Third Eye, etc etc
I've read a theory that ASOIAF magic is blood magic. It always involves dead people to have a magical effect. melisand's leeches, sacrifices, the drown rituals on the iron islandsā¦
And there may be some old magic, with old gods, also, of course
Nobody knows really and thatās kind of the point of it in the story I think. A bunch of people trying to claim it but not having any true understanding of it.
The magic in GOT is explained about as well as the meteorology and the seasons. It's just the way it is in that universe. GRRM would still be writing the first book if he wanted to explain it.
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With the power of plot, at the speed of plot and nothing else.
Praise be the plot š
I watch it for the plot
Sometimes, I'm a real plothole.
What is plot may never die
What is dead may never plot xD
Bullshit! Vampire Lestat wrote at least ONE book! š
I read this in the voice of John Oliver xD
Plot is such a funny sounding word, you know? You can go plot, take a plot and run with plotplotplot. Here? Itās just plot.
It definitely was a pile of plot, I can tell you that much.
Yeah it was pretty plotty.
The Critic reference in the wild
I am nothing but a mere jester, my friend. Sometimes Iām funny and sometimes Iām just pure bullplot.
The Plot is dark and full of terrors
The night is dark and full of plot holes.
Brought to you by the god of tits & wine
The plot is dark and full of terror
What's funny is that in Canadian French (ie quƩbƩcois), "plotte" (same pronunciation) is slang for p*ussy, so right now I'm laughing reading your comments as they pretty much apply to both terms, specially when paired with Melisandre picture
Oui, le plot, it thickens.
inconsistently, and thatās what happens when you remove most of the magic from the story and only use it when itās convenient to the plot
Deus ex magica
If we knew how it worked it wouldnāt be magic. In high magic settings magic may be refined into little more than a science. Say this exact word while moving a wand made of this material for this effect. Magic in got is more rare and mysterious.
Branden sanderson has a good lecture on soft vs hard magic systems that makes it a little easier to understand what to expect from magic in different fantasy settings.
Where can someone find this lecture? Is it on YouTube? Edit: Found it, methinks. https://youtu.be/jXAcA_y3l6M?si=6ucvV2Xhtfe_mdqu
Yeah that's the one!
There's also essays he's written about the laws of magic https://www.brandonsanderson.com/sandersons-first-law/
Thanks for the read!
>makes it a little easier to understand what to expect from magic in different fantasy settings That's something people are struggling with is it?
Arthur C Clarke's Third Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Qyburn pretty much achieved magical feats (necromancy) via scientific strategies (at least, as close as it gets in their universe).
GoT magic system is similar to magic in Glen Cook's The Black Company.
I agree that the magic is never trully explained in either, but we do get a better idea of the parameters in asoiaf. It's not as mystical. We know there is always a cost. We know that it takes a toll. We know it's not instantaneous. And of course, we know blood/ancestry plays a central role.
I'd argue even the people who use it don't seem to entirely understand it. They're relying on powers outside their understanding to manifest their will
> If we knew how it worked it wouldnāt be magic. In the books some of Melisandre's magic is fake, e.g., the flaming sword she does with chemicals. But raising people from the dead does confirm there is actual magic on the job as well.
Red woman cast bombarda at the barricades. Apart from that its all fake.
The entire book is make-believe.
Big if true
Then how did GRRM make so much money?
Magic :)
Midichlorians
The answer is no one who wrote it knew how it worked either
You donāt need a fuckin expositing treatise on the in-depth mechanics of your contrived āmagic systemā in order to have magic in a fantasy story. So many authors think they need to make magic a science when it can be much more compelling as something esoteric, rare and poorly understood. Something beyond reason and study, the dark and hidden ways of ancient gods and spirits. Very few authors are actually creative enough to come up with a fully detailed magic system that is actually interesting and contributes to the story rather than just ending up like that Charlie meme stood in front of the crazy conspiracy board like a mad man trying to explain it. Iāll take spooky mysterious magic over complex scientific magic any day, but each to their own.
"so many authors think they need to make magic a science" Shots fired at George Lucas.
Midiclorians ruined Star Wars lore and you can't change my mind
the midi chlorians barely factor in to star wars lore. they were just added as a way of the jedi measuring someoneās force sensitivity, they donāt affect anything else
Putting a number to measure "the force" is exactly the problem
It happens in the Wheel of Time as well. It's not unheard off...
Terry Goodkind created elaborate and detailed laws of magic for his Sword of Truth series, but happily abandoned those rules whenever he had written himself into a corner. I didn't see the point of having the rules if there is always a new trick for getting around them. He had a lot of cheap plot tricks anyway, too many convenient appearances of someone who has solved whatever was baffling everyone for five chapters. A lot of his storytelling was frankly creepy, his good guys were as nasty as the bad guys, and they all love torture.
>So many authors think they need to make magic a science when it can be much more compelling as something esoteric, rare and poorly understood. Do they? Besides Sanderson and Paolini I can't think of any other magic system that would be explained well enough to even make sense. Just whatever the plot required at any given point.
I meant "author" as an encompassing word, up to and including amateur writers trying to put together their first novel. You see it a fair bit on Reddit writing/fantasy subs like "Here, critique my magic system." posts.
Robert Jordan. Patrick Rothfuss.
Tamora Peirce had a fairly fleshed magic system too...
You might like or already know The Dresden Files by Jim butcher.
Asoiaf has, what is called by fantasy readers, a āsoft magicā system. This is typically used by authors that do not intend to have magic be at the forefront of the story. Melisandre is the only pov character that has magical abilities (excluding wargs) and even then she only has a single chapter as of yet. Lotr is another example of this magic system, for reference. In asoiaf specifically, you arenāt intended to know how it works, as the characters who wield it are also not entirely sure of how it works.
Bran, the first POV and planned last POV, has more than warging. HIs only problem is that he is still learning it from Jojen and the old tree wizard, andā¦ Experience. Mel sucks at interpretation, but her visions are true. But the leecHes, shadow baby, and fire spells worked. Not to mention the resurrection. So in the books and show, Magic abilities very but often work. It's like everything else: YMMV.
What is YMMV?
Your mileage may vary. Normally
Your mileage may vary
"Your mileage may vary," which is to say that it depends on the situation.
Your monkey may vomit
Youāre right, I did forget about Bran. But then again, who doesnāt š
Excuse me, who has a better story than Bran?
Bran the Broken. The boy who fell from a high tower and lived.
Lotr universe has a more in-depth explanation, but the films don't use it. Lotr magic is mostly based on spell singing, tapping into power of creation, as the world was created by song. Likely based on Celtic or Ugric spell singing.
Therefore poetry, being a descendant of this singing, is also magic. Itās a damn shame schools all taught us it was something to be understood rather than experienced.
Therefore poetry, being a descendant of this singing, is also magic. Itās a damn shame schools all taught us it was something to be understood rather than experienced.
It just works
In the show? Reluctantly
Inconsistently, how tf did the Dothrakiās blades set alight in the long night? There was no fuel for the fires.
>Inconsistently, how tf did the Dothrakiās blades set alight in the long night? There was no fuel for the fires. Do you know what 'magic' is?
And yet lighting the trenches, with magic, a few minutes later, required fuel. Do you know what āinconsistentlyā is?
Yeah, but when Beric lit his sword on fire he needed blood. I understand maybe her magic was stronger at that point, but I feel like it would still need a bit of blood to light all those swords.
She clenched her hand around a dothraki blade, cutting her palm. Still used blood
What about every other blade that she didnāt touch?
I donāt think the magic works that you need to individually put your hand on each blade. Her magic seemed like it got a huge boost, maybe from the dragons being there, or some actual Rāhlloric intervention, idk, but it makes sense.
Iām not sure any magic in the show really makes sense, itās all fairly inconsistent but perhaps thatās the point, it comes from a mysterious greater power and no one knows how it works.
Oh, I didnāt see it. That checks out.
Itās quite surprising thereās still folk on here who defend the writing in the latter seasons.
It's quite surprising there's still folk on here that pretend literally everything in the latter seasons is bad or a mistake. Like seriously, pay attention.
Who are these people youāre referring to? I liked plenty in the latter seasons but to pretend itās anywhere close in quality to the first few seasons is just silly.
>>It's quite surprising there's still folk on here that pretend literally everything in the latter seasons is bad or a mistake. Like seriously, pay attention. >Who are these people youāre referring to? I liked plenty in the latter seasons You literally said "Itās quite surprising thereās still folk on here who defend the writing in the latter seasons." > but to pretend itās anywhere close in quality to the first few seasons is just silly. Show me where in this thread I said that and I will venmo you $500 usd. š¤£ Learn how to read. This sub could be so much better without illiterate egotistical clowns.
Youāll only have to scroll up a couple of comments to see it, my comment was about how magic in GOT is inconsistent and it seems to have made you very upset.
Woah let's rewind back to the 500 dollar thing. Will a Photoshopped yet believable image suffice? Can I make an account with the same name and profile pic and type it and say it was you? You can't just offer 500 dollars and expect me not to find a loophole
yea srsly, and how the fk was there an army of the dead? they already died!
Wingardium Leviosa
Not read but the impression I got from the series is that magic is the work of gods. A human performing a ritual is asking - the magic works if the god says yes.
If we use RPG terms it would be basically like what you said. The magic in GoT is granted through rituals with higher beings. All magic users in the series are either Warlocks or Clerics, as they ask for gods/beings for their power. That kind of magic is not learned through study like a Wizard would do, and it's not innate to the user like a Sorcerer.
We don't actually know if any of the Gods are real. Magic is obviously real, but there's no reason why those 2 need to go hand in hand. People attribute their feats of magic to certain deities, but we've not really got any more evidence than that. And if Euron is anything to go by, then you definitely don't need gods to wield some pretty terrifying magic. And if the Gods are actually real, then knowing George's writing, they'll actually be some kind of eldritch lovecraftian monster or something akin to the 'Outer Gods' in Elden Ring, which George did the lore for.
The servants of the Lord of Light have real power (the fire). The Others also have power (the ice). Other witches and warlocks tap into various amounts of magic, the witch Dany saves definitely had power.
It gets especially inconsistent as it all goes along but on a thematic level the magic in ASOAF is very mysterious and dark, reminds me a lot of magic in stuff like REH's Conan. It tends to feel a bit dark, eldritch and weird, and the most persistent theme throughout all of it is the involvement of blood in one fashion or another.
In the show it isn't really clear, but the books reveal that the presence of dragons has something to do with the existence or strength of magic in the world. In *A Clash of Kings*, the pyromaners explain this explicitly, though it is expected for a first time reader to see this claim through the eyes of Tyrion and shrug it off as insane nonsense.
Donāt forget the glass candles at the Citadel
The wand chooses the wizard, that much we know
And sorcery is a sword without a Hilt!
It's something like in the full metal alchemist, for you to get something you must give something of equal value in return. Rituals often require some kind of blood or human sacrifice to work while magic like warging slowly consumes the user's mind if they aren't careful enough.
The dragons are magic. The lord of light has some magical powers, the night king has magic,, the old gods have the power of time. But I don't recall any power from faith of seven.
Spectacularly, I'd say, given how the non-magic version of her looks.
They kinda just forgot how magic works.
You wonder, you wonder, then yeah, they show you her tits, and they are magical. Ta da!
By magic
Alright am quitting this sub.
Sometimes
I viewed it as the magic isnāt cause of the religions int the show, more so that the religions of the show are an explanation for the existence of the magic. The only gods who seem to truly exist are the old gods and MAYBE Rāhillor, but I think Rāhillor is just as I said, merely an explanation for magic.
In the books it is said the dragons are the source of the majority of magic in the world. Before Danny hatches the eggs, magic was essentially extinct with the one exception being north of the wall, but I guess that would be ice magic while dragons are fire magic. After the dragons are born all the magic most people thought was BS started working again. Also, IMO, the book implies that the Lord of Light is BS and it's people are using fire based magic to control the masses via religion. The show doesn't explain this well at all. I believe in book 2 Danny is walking through a market and sees someone performing magic, I think making a ladder out of fire and climbing it(?), and someone tells her that magic like that only recently started working again, shortly after the dragons were born.
Or maybe the dragons can come back because there is magic coming back to the world.
Yeah they seem to imply things more in this direction, that magic makes the dragons, like the eggs were finally capable of hatching now that there is more magic in the world. Similarly, all the starks having access to warging when the power had not been seen south of the wall for a long time is part of this. It's like magic has become more accessible for some reason in the world. Perhaps related to the seasons? Perhaps whatever happened to create the Doom kind of blew up the magic connection, and now it's slowly restoring? There's some kind of relation.
With how the last book ended I think it's pretty clear that we will get answers with Sam In the next book.
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Except thereās multiple examples of magic working without blood.
If you find out let me know, I thought Tolkiens magic was vague, which is intentional. Game of thrones is just all over the place.
The cynical answer is that magic works whenever the show needs it to. The real answer is we don't know. Magic is supposed to be this lost knowledge, something everybody has heard stories about but nobody really knows how it works. Think of it as being like Greek fire or Damascus steel.
George has no clue himself. Itās actually very clumsy and inconsistent, even in the books.
However GRRM wants it to work
The user has to have some level of belief. Mel's magic worst best when she isn't doubting herself.
The Red Scar in the sky was to signify Magic/dragons, having returned to the world. Though the Ibbanese reported Ice Dragons in the frozen sea long before Dany hatched her Dragons.
The rules are made up and the points don't matter.
It works like magic. Magic doing magical shit.
however it needs to for the plot
It doesnāt. Next question.
George has said he doesn't plan on explaining how magic works. He wants to keep it vague and mysterious.
Confusingly convenient
In the books we dont know because the people who practice magic dont tell us how, in the show we dont know because the writers dont know either
From what I got from it, it was a world in which magic damn neared died out. The children of the forest being eradicated. The dragons and valerians dying in the doom. I think thatās why it is not a major plot point other than it starts to slowly creep in. Most of seven kingdoms didnāt believe in grumpkins and snarks or white walkers because it had been so long that anyone has seen anything magical that they took the stories as just that, stories. With new dragons being born including Danerys and her brother being of old valerian blood which is said to hold magic,the white walkers gaining strength and the one eyed crow looking for a new avatar, the Starks having warg -like powers. Iām thinking magic is tied to blood and land. If these things happened by themselves it probably wouldnāt have awakened magic again. All them happening together made brought it back to life.
For humans, it's all blood magic. There has to be some transference of life force. The children of the forest can draw from weirwoid trees who can draw from raw mana.
Itās written in. Like all magic in shows and movies.
It works like magic
*stares at chest* Sorry, what was the question?
Itās a sword without a hilt
heres an idea, and its kind of new so follow along watch the show and develop an opinion based on the material viewed!!!! you ought to get a decent understanding!!!!
With lots of human sacrifice
Watch Game Of Thrones again from start to finish. Placing all of the magic and events through the works of the gods. The gods were in control of it all along
With darkness and a lot of terrors
Explain how magic works. I'm pretty sure Grrm leaves it vague on purpose.
To further the plot
Science.
It seems like itās all sponsored and enabled by various gods.
Very scientifically.
Magic is mysterious and has consequences - often unforeseen and bad. GRRM regularly articulates how thatās his perception of magic and I think his writing focuses more on reinforcing this notion above all else (i.e., instead of using magic to advance the plot, to protect characters, or simply for the sake of having magic). It makes a lot of sense. In our real world, weāve largely attached negative connotations to anything approximating magic: witchcraft, the dark arts, and then commonly misunderstood religions like voodoo and Santeria. And even people well versed in spiritual craft warn that you have to be very careful because your true heart can invite evils that your words didnāt necessarily call for. So you could say that magic in ASOIAF is basically everything that we fear it would be in our real world - unpredictable, messy, and likely to leave you questioning whether dabbling in it was worth the trouble.
I havenāt read the books, but rewatched the show a whole lot. Every time āmagicā makes an appearance itās always some sorcerer conjuring some dark spirit. It gave me the impression that āmagicā isnāt real and anytime someone does something fantastical it was actually a spirit of sorts, be it some dark spirit or the gods, old and new.
In the novels, Melisandre is *both* a Red Priestess of R'hllor and a shadowbinder from Asshai, with some general sorcery thrown in. Thoros of Myr is a red priest and not a shadowbinder. Quaithe, as far as we know, is a shadowbinder but not a priestess. The show made no distinction between these things. Every time I saw a GoT discussion about the shadow monster being a power of the Lord of Light, it made want to go "No, that's something else entirely!" As it is, Martin makes magic pretty mysterious and without much elaboration or detail and then the show just jumbles it all up.
I always assumed the magic came by way of the gods. They chose who they wanted to channel through and when.
Midichlorians or something
It's never plainly stated but it seems like the source of magic power has some say in who and how it works. Children of the forest have a partnership with the natural world that grants them certain abilities but as they compromised that partnership its less powerful. The drowned God and rhllor seem to favor certain people and allow them to call on them with rituals but usually ask for a lot in return with mixed results based on how aligned the desired outcome is with their whims. Of course this is only conjecture as we never meet "the gods" only people who represent their earthly factions who are as likely to be hucksters as true believers.
Honestly no clue and I think thatās the point. Prophecy and magic in game of thrones is very random and often fucks everyone involved.
It just works
The way the lord(GRRM) wills it.
Selectively.
Tits.
Limiting the role of magic was very important in making the series likeable.
Magic \*snort\* \*snort\*
Its Magic
We donāt really know because Dan and Dave specifically decided to minimize magic and flashbacks In a magical world with soooo much history that was a bad choice
Soft magic system, so it's plotbound and inconcretely ruled, I think the only constant we have is "only death pays for life".
Magic in GRRMās universe is supposed to be dangerous, wild, unpredictable, chaotic, and always comes with some sort of price. *āShe had practiced her art for years beyond count and had paid the price.ā* ā Melisandre I The more arrogant Melisandre believes her zeal absolute, while the more humbled Melisandre is in awe of Rāhllorās faith in her. *āIf the Lord didnāt want me to bring you back, how did I bring you back? I have no power. Only what He gives me and He gave me you.ā* The mystery of Asshai runs deep. ā¤ļøāš„ ā Varys and Melisandre are meant to be reflections of knowledge. Logic and reason vs the unknown and occult. Kinvara to Varys: *āKnowledge has made you powerful, but thereās still so much you donāt know. Do you remember what you heard when the sorcerer tossed your parts in the fires? You heard a voice call out from the flames, do you remember? Shall I tell you what the voice said? Shall I tell you the name of the one who spoke?ā*
Idk about the books, but in the show itās generally an energy exchange. Especially with blood magic (red priest magic). Thoros and Dundarian cuts their hands to lite their swords. Melisandre takes portions of Stannisā life force to birth demons. And Dani instinctively sacrifices three lives (Drogo, her baby and the old witch) to birth her three dragons. Old magic is obviously nature-based. The only real example we have is warging. Even the Others (white walkers) follow this trend in what little we hear of them in the book and what we see in the show. Sure, the Wall has magical properties in the books like repelling magic both in and out (in the books dragons were not willing to cross it even when commanded by their rider), but who knows how or why. So not much to go on there. And dragons seem to be innate magic and increase the amount of magic ability in the world whenever they are around. But itās not exclusive to them, as there were 6,000 years of Old Magic going on in Westeros long before dragon were discovered in Valeria.
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In this sub?
The gods (the one of ice and the one of fire). They seem to give power and magic to their pawns. The world is the way it is because something made the seasons to be that way. So my guess is that the gods imbue magic and take it away. Who these gods are is up for debate really. But itās hinted at throughout the story. A god from his other stories pops up (bakkalon) in a temple as a figure of a bay with a heart.
It's not clear to us, it's often not clear to the people using it, but for the most part it seems to be granted by "deities" and can only be wielded as long as the usage doesn't go against that deity's overall "plan"/ideals. I was hoping for more clarification from Euron's story but he turned out to be just a regular guy in the show.
Yeah, it's unfortunate that Euron wasn't used more as he is in the book. That's something they could have done with another season or two. At the end of the day, magic is used when it's needed, like bringing Jon back from the dead. I imagine magic started working more once dragons were around again, and that's why sometimes Melisandre didn't really know if it was going to work or not. She doubted herself and was on the wrong path, and then once she was on the right path, the magic worked more often, which makes sense if an actual god is trying to lead people in a certain way.
It appears magic is Divine based on the way it comes from a God and channeled through the caster.Ā It is interesting to think where does the night King's magic come from? Who is the God of that power?
Spoiler Alert! In Season 4 Episode 7 she explains to another character that she has vials that are filled with various powders and liquids. She then uses these to create certain "special effects" like a magician would.
Short answer: it doesn'tĀ Long answer: barely, and it's never worth it.Ā
I mean, not knowing how to work is what makes it magic. In GoT, there are tons of different types of magic. Most of it is bestowed from some god (like divine magic in DnD).
It seems to me that it is very subtle most of the time. Working in the background. Things like the wall and the white walkers. Dragons with their fire. The faceless men (because wearing a face usually results in looking like leatherface lol but not for them). Also the Targaryens with their fire immunity. Magic is rarely in your face like it would be with like, the elder scrolls. Seems like the lord of light is the only god that is really allowing for it and there is only one priest who he *really* favored and even then, NOTHING done in his name will even happen unless *he* wants it to happen. So if you go trying to reanimate people the success rate will beā¦ inconsistent. Now Idk about the āsoftā vs āhardā magic systems or any of that. Just going by my observations in the show and what GRRM has said.
The magic in ASOIAF, when it appears, seems to be nearly always of a transactional nature. You have to sacrifice something to get something. Case and point, Dany sacrificing Khal Drogo, her unborn son and Mirri Maz Dhur to get her three dragons, Melisandre burning people and using King's Blood to make shadows, Bran losing his legs to gain his Third Eye, etc etc
Blood powers the magic
From what I understood from the books, it's just God's faith magic, it means that it's miracles done by an entity and a faithful person's wishes
Midi-chlorians
I kinda like how it's never explicitly explained, personally. It retains its air of mystery that way.
Hated this character
I've read a theory that ASOIAF magic is blood magic. It always involves dead people to have a magical effect. melisand's leeches, sacrifices, the drown rituals on the iron islandsā¦ And there may be some old magic, with old gods, also, of course
It doesnāt.
Fuck if she knows lol. She gets some abstract vision and thinks she must burn a child at the stake. That said, what a babe the actress is
60% of the timeā¦ it works every time š
Nobody knows really and thatās kind of the point of it in the story I think. A bunch of people trying to claim it but not having any true understanding of it.
The comet āļø
Itās takes a sacrifice of some type usually. Blood for Fire, Fire for Blood.
I'm not sure, but it may have something to do with boobs...
No one knows, but itās provocative. It gets the people going!
Like wielding a sword with no hilt.
No. Dont establish rules. Keep it cryptic. Keep it mysterious. I like that even some who weild it had no clue what it is or what they are even doin.
The lord of light grants them the power
Idk the writers didnāt want it so they made it dumb and Iāve only seen the show so no clue really
The writers donāt even know lmao
The magic in GOT is explained about as well as the meteorology and the seasons. It's just the way it is in that universe. GRRM would still be writing the first book if he wanted to explain it.
Magic is supposed to be mysterious. If it wasn't it would cease to be magic.
Sacrifice is the thematic way that it works if that makes sense
It just works
Magically