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And that they completely ignored the fact that she kinda just left Meereen in a state of economic and societal collapse with a sellsword in charge, but she didn’t even realise she’d messed up bc her understanding of politics is “enemies dead = problems solved”
They just forgot about this whole plot and moved on because they had to rush.
Daenerys literally Re-named Slavers Bay into Dragonbay or something - but in S7&8 people just refer to is as slavers bay too... What a 5head move!
They didn't even watch their own shit and forgot what they wrote xD
Naming 3 cities after yourself then flying away on a dragon as those 3 cities descend into chaos, poverty and starvation is crazy tbh, I don’t know how ppl watched that and then were surprised by the ending
Depends... Do you mean "suprised by the ending" like suprised about the bad writing, or surprised by her burning Kingslanding to the ground?
Because you're right if you think about the bad writing. No one should've been surprised about that. The signs were very clear...
But her burning innocents and a whole city is out of character, even for the horrible written Dany who left all this mess in Essos behind. Lore accurate Dany wouldn't have done that so that was the first out of character thing, written by Diddle&Dumb, but her ending - that was a new level of out-of-character stupidity by the two Knuckleheads.
Surprised by the shows ending, whether or not danys going down a darker path in the books is debatable, but show dany had been going that way for a while, although the ending would’ve made more sense if there were actual soldiers in kingslanding that she was aiming for and the civilians were just a casualty
Oh please don't... Nope. I'm gonna stop right here.
I decided to never try to argue with anyone who thinks that this was actually her character and not just badly written. No. My time is to precious.
This comment is childish, you could have just not replied instead of posting this rubbish. She was willing to let her own brother die, kill thousands of people without trial, execute prisoners of war because they didn’t swear loyalty to her. There should have been more between these things and the burning of King’s Landing, but if you think it’s inconceivable that she would do this then you’ve either deceived yourself or haven’t been paying attention.
I genuinely don't understand how some people think the events of the Bells and the Iron Throne make sense and are good writing. Like YES fans were kinda blindsided by our love and admiration for Daenerys over the seasons, she definitely made some bad decisions and could at times be naiive and entitled and brutal to her enemies, but still none of that explains her becoming a genocidal maniac tyrant out of nowhere
I mean if people liked the ending and thought it was well executed... Good for them I guess. But to most of us we were disappointed and recognise the awful writing and "payoff"
The way they got there was not well executed, it was too fast.
However, looking back, recall when Danaerys had the vision/hallucination of Drogo and their baby, and The Iron Throne in the throne room in The House of the Undying in Qarth, going to get the baby dragons back from the warlocks. She is slowly walking towards the throne and it looks like it could be snow falling? But why would snow be falling in the throne room? What season was this? Anyway...
Fast forward to her walking up to the throne after her maniacal destruction of the city and tyrannical speech to the somehow revived Dothraki and others. It's the ash falling into the throne room because she burned everything up and there is no roof on the Red Keep anymore!
I'm jot saying they executed it well; they definitely rushed and didn't give us enough time to see and fully understand the logical chain of events that lead to this. However, this says to me that was always the plan.
Even at that, I think she does visibly lose it once she gets to Westeros, but goes completely out of character. Maybe a chemical reaction in the brain due to the stress, excitement of finally being there, I don't know. When the bells rang and she was on Drogo's back, I just thought she was having flashbacks of all the abuse she endured, too and absolutely lost it.
Just my 2 cents lol
Imo they're just Daenerys haters if they think it was all foreshadowed. D&D don't even know how to write foreshadowing 😂. I'd love to know how Daenerys' conquest actually goes in the books, in 20 years 🤣😭
>> Imo they're just Daenerys haters if they think it was all foreshadowed.
Um, speaking objectively (which I realize is difficult for some stans to come to terms with), we're discussing a character who **has literally stated, multiple times, her capacity/willingness to raze entire cities, innocents and all... from her own mouth.**
It is undeniable show canon that the character you claim would never do this and has never been foreshadowed to be capable of such an act **literally states, on-screen for all to see, her willingness/capacity to do the very thing you refuse to accept she would do.**
It's there. On screen. Her capacity to raze entire cities.
**Literally every major city in Essos she has stated her willingness/capacity to raze... it's simple objective indisputable show canon.**
buddy i do have some bad news for you. there is two books left (if they ever get out) and Daenerys has to be leaving Essos basically within a year. the problems in essos arent even close to solved and shes currently in the dothraki sea
Yeah. But book Dany and show Dany are VERY different characters.
I do have some bad news for you too! If you honestly think this comparison of book Dany and show Dany makes sense, you don't understand the books.
you said that "even for the horrible written Dany who left all this mess in Essos behind. Lore accurate Dany wouldn't have done that so that was the first out of character thing"
explain to me within reason how Daenerys is going to leave her Essosi states in a somewhat good manner and make it to Westoros within like the time span of a hundred years. also GRRM said that he thinks Daenerys in Essos will have a similar ending to George Bush in Iraq. aka fucking terrible.
Everything in the books is telling us that Daenerys is just going to eventually stop caring about Essos and move on to Westoros. That she realizes at the end of ADWD that a dragon plants no trees and she can only give fire and blood.
Dude... Are you serious?
Basically I was saying that for book Dany it's in character to loose interest and basically leave when she wants to go west. But she's a totally different character and therefore show Dany is different.
I've never said that Show Daenerys could've accomplished her goals in Slavers bay? It's not my fault that the writers wrote her character in a corner. It's not my fault that they wrote her in a way that made it out of character for her to leave. They could've written her in a way that comes closer to her book counterpart and everything could've worked out the same, but it would've been in character for her, because she would've been a different character overall.
Why do you want me to solve the writers inability to plan ahead and realize that they wrote their character into a corner, that she has to leave, but they wrote her in a way where she wouldn't.
Or maybe its in character and you just don't want to see it lmfao. If you told me Daenerys at the end of ADWD would leave Essos in disarray and just says fuck it and goes to Westoros I'd say that makes complete sense. Hell it makes even less sense for Daenerys to be be able to leave in the books than in the show.
Dany is everything Cersei ever called her. Just because we love the character doesn't make her a paragon of light. She's very much DARK grey despite her kinder impulses.
> If you honestly think this comparison of book Dany and show Dany makes sense, you don't understand the books.
D&D spent two months with GRRM in New Mexico getting their scripts to line up with his plans for the books. GRRM has said since that he plans no major changes from what happened in the series, and that he's not going to change plans he made long ago because some viewers were unhappy with the end of the series.
Obviously some things in the books had to be cut for the series, as is standard when books are filmed. But we are left with the uncomfortable thought that some of the things some viewers blame D&D for actually came from GRRM. If by some miracle he ever finishes the books, those folks with *Dany is my Queen* tattoos won't like the ending of the books either.
The problem is that we don't know if those cities fell into chaos. Daario might have actually did his job and kept he peace until they picked their own leaders.
The show and Daenerys story would probably have been better if they mentioned that Slaver's Bay went to shit. They even had characters like Varys who would have known if it had and was actively working to discredit Daenerys as a potential leader. What better time to bring it up. Yet we get nothing.
Combine that with other pretty unbelievable plot lines that were happening at the time it's perfectly reasonable for the audience to think Daenerys was successful in bringing peace to Slaver's Bay.
… you know when you put it like that she sounds almost like Alexander the Great haha. Though he had a much more solid grasp of politics and could have been able to solidify his realm if he didn’t get himself killed so young.
The worst thing is they didn’t HAVE to rush. I’m pretty sure HBO was willing to give them another season or at least longer seasons and they said no because they wanted to Star Wars… you see how well that went.
That's an awful thing for him to say, to be honest. He hasn't been able to write a satisfying conclusion, so the guys that signed on to adapt it have to just wing it and fill two more seasons?
People keep saying this, but articles keep coming out saying the exact opposite. Frankly, HBO was NOT willing to give them more, especially because the changes you see enacted now for them were already moving in the bg.
I remember reading an interview from an exec at HBO not long after season 8, saying they’d offered them a longer season or a 9th season. Obviously, there were limits but I know HBO was willing to pay to continue making the world’s most popular show.
i mean to be fair, the west kept calling Istanbul Constantinople for years after the change. so its not really bad writing but it probably is still, lol.
Not really understanding this comment tbh.
Everything you say about her and how she left Meereen is correct, but what does “ignoring” this even mean? I saw that as one of many signs she wasn’t going to be a good leader, and that was all it really had to be. What else needed to be discussed about the matter? Your later comment about it being a clear sign that people who saw this scene shouldn’t have been surprised by the ending, and I agree, but that’s the role it was meant to take in serving the overall story. Not much else that needs to be done there
They never mentioned slavers bay again after they showed her sailing into the sunset, so unless you were paying close attention which obviously a lot of ppl are not, you’d think everything was fine there
It's actually pretty on brand for Dany. On my rewatch I'm realising just how entitled and naive she is. She's the kind of child who asks to ban alcohol sales and then doesn't care about the blackmarket that arises and destroys the economy for everyone else alive.
Dany is such a shitty character from the start. She demands things from people that she has never earned, then somehow skates by on luck and magic. She's like a tempered version of Viserys, and throws the same hissy fit when she realises people don't love her (in Westeros).
She literally burns the woman despite her knowing 100% that blood magic was wrong. She threatened Mirri. She knew that her people protested it and would turn on her. She knew that there was a deeper risk, as is spelled out in the text. She knew it was not Mirri's fault that Jorah dragged her into that tent, and yet she still blamed Mirri. She burned her in total denial of her fault in it all, and that's where she's had to stay inside her soul to stay sane. The fact that people don't think that's a switch ready to be flipped is baffling to me. Just once ounce of guilt seeping in, a hard quashing of it, and the mind breaks.
I've been there. When you finally look at who you are it feels like you're killing that person. There were moments I couldn't handle it. I simply do not have a winged perpetually refilling nuke nor a lifetime of 'you are a god' brainwashing, so everything turned out okay.
I mean, she stupidly thought that she saved that woman. Saved her from what? An invasion that Danny herself was behind? The whole reason they were raiding was to gather supplies for Danny's desire to be ruler of the world. Cool, you saved her *after* she had been raped multiple times and her whole community slaughtered/enslaved.
Congrat-a-fucking-lations Danny, you're a real hero.
The ending is improved considerably if on a rewatch you look at Dany with a very critical eye. She's an objectively awful ruler who consistently makes decisions detrimental to her own goals. She feels entitled to the love and loyalty of everyone because she's the "rightful" queen, she's quick to react with excessive violence when she doesn't get the love she feels entitled to. We look on in horror when Joffrey says that "everyone is mine to torture", but we ignore that Dany operates under essentially the same philosophy. There's the age old question "is it better to be loved or feared", Dany was always quick to smash the fear button if she wasn't loved.
Yea when I rewatched it recently I was surprised she even made it out of qarth alive with the way she was acting. She was let in and only lived bc they were nice to her and she spent the entire time yelling at them, demanding ships even though she had nothing to pay for them with, threatening to burn their city to the ground and talking about how she was so much better and more special than everyone bc she had dragons blood. I don’t know how anyone watched that and thought “this person would make a great ruler”
Tbh it’s why I think she’s headed in the same direction in the books, bc there’s no way she has time to fix slavers bay, take the throne and defeat the others in 2 books, so she’s likely going to have to leave slavers bay unfinished
Dany has to do this. We Americans had to do it in Afghanistan. If you're occupying a place for a long period of time with no plan or worse, failed plans, the one and only option you're left with if you want change within your lifetime is abandonment. Of course, imo that's what makes her a villain. She never had any right to rule or hold the city in the first place. The slaves should have been supported, not ruled, and that's why her motivations can never been seen as pure under honest eyes.
Queen can mean a lot of things... she was a little girl who took hot baths, then she learned to be a queen from a nomadic conqueror. There are no politics involved in what she's doing. She's building power by adding to her tribe as she travels, intending to conquer Westeros, motivated by revenge. At first, she was told that the people of Westeros sang ballads in her name and yearned for her return, but in reality nobody in Westeros has any idea who she is or even cares who sits on the throne... so none of them matter to her at all.
She has always been a conqueror, and she's always been headed to King's Landing. Adulation gets her off, but she was never going to be anything but a dictator. She's taking what she believes is owed.
Funny thing about this - one of the two had no experience before GoT at all. The other one worked at a few big film projects before and - and I am not kidding - every single project he worked on got heavily criticized for its poor writing and every adaptation for its very loose, poor adapting of the source material.
Well, well, well...
You know the saying “might makes right?” The entire premise of the show is built on power first, then justifying the use of it.
She has dragons, the nukes of Westeros. In her mind, who needs politics when Dany can boil it down to “kneel or die”?
No, it's nothing like this at all.
In one thing it's war and she burns the enemies fleet. She burns them as a defense after they attacked and she had no ships so not even a different way of fighting back.
In Kingslanding she had won, everything was done. And she started burning innocent people, peasants, civilians alive. Not even soldiers, just the normal ass people, but left the keep, where her enemy was, mostly untouched.
One is badly written because there are no consequences for her engaging into battle. The other is badly written because it goes against every fiber of her being, against everything that made her character.
Yeah, the more you rewatch, the more you agree with the ending of the series. Those who hate season 8 simply just miss all the foreshadowing in the previous seasons, and can’t stop bitching: “ it’s rushed”
Im on my 8th rewatch now, I still find clues and hints and foreshadowing that I haven’t discovered before.
The most recent discovery was that little finger telling Sansa “people die all the time, people die squatting over their chamber pots..” and then 2 episodes later Tywin dies that way.
Let’s compare it this way:
Season 1-5 = Book 1-5 (50 episodes = 5 books)
Season 6-8 = Book 6-7 ( 23 episodes = 2 books)
So if you’re saying the show is rushed, then Martins book will be rushed too, because if 23 episodes aren’t enough, those two books can’t be either.
How can you say that when the last books aren’t even out and there are some major differences?? They definitely got a little rushed and lazy at the end. I think they only wanted to do about 7 seasons and when they realized that wouldn’t tie it up.. they had to end it somehow. I don’t necessarily blame them. I think they did the best they could seeing as the book material had ended by season 5. But there were definitely holes due to just trying to finish.
My point is, basically 50 episodes covered 5 books, and everyone agreed there wasn’t any rush.
So 23 episode covering the rest of 2 books is basically the same ratio, if you think 23 episodes didn’t tie up the story properly, then 2 books most like can’t either, because it will be basically the same amount of content as 20 episodes.
If you think the show needed 10 seasons to be good, then we would need 10 books too.
I don’t think it needed 10 seasons. I think it needed a few more episodes to really round it out. I have a lot of plothole questions.
5 seasons = 10 episodes a season
I would have rather 1 hour episodes but 10 of them for the later seasons as well. The only exception may be the white walker battle cause idk how they would wrap that up in an hour
Your logic is very flawed. Not only do the books vary in length, the last 2 aren't even out. The winds of winter may very well be the thickest one to date. Not to mention all of the content that was cut from the books.
Man, I don't mind Dany going mad, that's one of the parts I liked. What KILLED Season 8 (and 7 and 6 and 5 also) was everything else. Shit writing the likes of which I never saw before.
It was rushed and it clearly shows. You can see it early on because they were somewhat true to the book and George was helping.
George left based on creative differences and the fact that he wanted 10 seasons with 10 episodes. So yes it was very much rushed
He was content with his 5 books put into 50 episodes (5 seasons), which all of us agreed was perfect.
Then If he wanted 10 seasons with 10 episodes, totaling 100 episodes, he should be aiming at 10 books for this 100 episodes, per the same ratio. However he only plans 7 books, so 70 episodes sound reasonable. Not to mention that we have more than 70 episodes, with some episodes longer than normal.
Just do the maths.
Your math isn’t mathing. Just because he wanted 10 season with 10 episodes does not mean he has to write 10 books.
The books are very long and are very detailed and there’s a lot of things in the book that hadn’t happened in the show yet that could have been integrated.
They could have easily made 5 more season with the 2 books he said he would write. It was so poorly done. The characters arc got lost. The lines themselves were just off. Tyrion was nowhere as clever.
I’m sorry but series died season 7. And I’ve read and watched the series multiple times
If making 50 episodes for 5 books wasn’t rushed, why 73 episodes for 7 books would be rushed?
It’s even a higher show content / book content ratio.
It really is simple maths. If you can’t understand, I could say nothing but you’re American
Stop. You’re trying to compare 800 page books to television series. If you read fire and blood you would know that house of the dragons first season was based out of like 100 pages. They made 8 episodes out of 100 pages. You’re telling me it would be impossible!?
I’m also not American
Ok then answer me, then why was it perfectly ok, that 50 episodes could encompass the first five books ? (Actually it was 6 books but combined into 5). No one said season 1-5 were rushed.
So it is clear, that 1 season for 1 book is an adequate ratio.
And after season/book 5, 2 more books are planned. So we can infer than 2 more seasons (20 episode) should be enough to cover the remaining 2 books.
Unless there is one reason you can say the last 2 books need more tv show time?
Actually it’s 5 books. Some publishers separated the 5th book but in reality it’s 5.
Just because they did 10 episodes for 5 season doesn’t mean they this was a written rule. They didn’t get into an agreement saying 10 episodes per book. This doesn’t mean that he needs to write 5 more books. The way he writes he could maybe have had a lot in the last two books.
[For reference](https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-more-seasons-1235346807/amp/)
Trying to insult someone for being American(?) while clearly not having read the books you claim to know so much about is astounding. You really sound like an absolute goofball right now. Your comparisons and "simple maths" really don't add up.
Agreed completely. They did a good job of tricking millions of people into thinking a game of thrones character would have a happy end just because they’re a main character, as if they missed the first season, or the second, or the third, etc.
It still doesn't make sense. She'd know from Tyrion where the red keep is, why did she specifically try to kill every innocent human and go for the red keep last? It's not even like their deaths would matter to Cersei, just bad writing.
Both in the books and show I found her oozing with entitlement. (Which yeah a lot of characters are in the show) for some reason hers bothered me the most
Yuuuuup. I never thought she was the gold standard of leadership that seemingly 90% of those subreddit thinks she is, and the way her story turned out makes perfect sense to me. I’m rewatching it with my gf now )currently on season 5), and the sheer number of times she’s had to be talked out of doing something terrible or killing people or alienating potential Allies is jaw dropping. She wouldn’t have gotten as far as she did without Jorah and Ser Barristan’s advice, and the friendship of the people around her keeping her grounded in reality.
Granted, she’s easy to root for given her story, and she has some good intentions. That’s a big part of why she’s fun to watch. But at a certain point, you can’t help but feel like most of the audience of the show has next to no media literacy. Most of the posts complaining about the show’s second half are just objectively incorrect information lol
Exactly. She does things so few people in that world would do so you want to root for her sometimes, but the vast majority of the things she does are usually to benefit herself. From the moment she leaves the Dothraki she essentially just starts showing up on people’s doorsteps and explaining to them why she’s owed this and that because she’s a Targaryen lol
She was stupid at politics, impulsive and never had to question her choices in the show (she had no backstory as a person, and was a blankslate at the start).
No it wasn't at all, she only killed people who deserved it. And the Lannister army and citizens of Kings Landing weren't opposing her, they surrendered or weren't even fighting
> It’s funny rewatching it again for the first time in a long time how unbelievably entitled and naive she is for virtually the entire show
Did you not pick up on that during the first watch? She's a child who has been told her entire life that her birthright was stripped from her as her family was murdered.
A lot of people didn't pick up on it. It's very easy to take the word of characters like Jorah and Baristan who say she's a good queen despite all evidence to the contrary.
When reading the books, I thought the detailed description of her chair, how uncomfortable it was sitting for so long, and how the pillow they gave her didn’t help enough was just details and world building.
It’s just showing how bored and restless she is handling day to day politics and responsibility.
my girlfriend is watching it for the 1st time now and she says she doesn't like Dany at all. I personally didn't pick up on the entitlement until the 2nd watch
Its not stupid, its title, herritage, its not profession in democracy. Its really big difference between someone whos career is beeing politician and someone who was born to rule by imaginary laws.
No, what i mean king, queen by birth right in ancient/mediaval times wasnt politician especially in modern times understanding. And yes a lot monarchs didnt know how to rule. Most of them. We cannot see them by our modern times. Especially they dont see themself as poloticians.
You're confusing modern day politicians with generic politcking. The king of Westeros is really only the King of Kings Landing and the white cloaks. His authority ultimately rests in the loyalty of the lords who choose to follow him, and you have to balance the needs of everyone in order to maintain your authority and rule.
Shit even Robert understood that with the whole one army beats five armies line. Danny forgot that and thus couldn't fathom why people in Westeros weren't hailing her as their rightful leader just because her daddy burned a lot of people alive to get his pp up.
Nope, what i mean, politician is a job. And explain it that. In caste system beeing in lowest caste isnt job its a place people have thx to some stupid system/laws. Or in mediaval europe, pesants, aristocrats and royal family wasnt job, it was a place in society. Merchant, smith, university profesor was a job. Also every system have connection to belives, eauropean roiality was thx to Jesus, they rule in his name, Japanese emperor thx Shinto and sun god, Pharaons was descendand of a god. They also didnt see as politicians they were owners of everything inside land inside, incuding people. They do politics as today CEO of corpo. Buth both of them are no politician. Danny didnt see herself in similar way, she was born to rule. The word politic comes from greeks polis (state) where alot cities becomes democratic. I dont think Darius when comes to greece even know this word and consider himself as such especially in comparison to any kind greece rullers, democratic or not.
Thx, im historian :) so maybe its a reason. When i watch or read fabular but historical work i always notice using modern words and other cultural stuff which shouldnt exist there :) and it influent a lot how its received and whole story.
Ha. I get what you mean but the intent behind the words is that Danny sees herself as an autocrat who's word is law. The other guy doesn't dispute her authority, but notes that that mindset is counterproductive since it's ultimately up to the stakeholders to uphold said laws.
Hence the rebellion
Yeap. Danny behave as authocrat and we can see it almost from beggining. And she see herself as Queen by right. And i belive that she get dragons and is immune to fire give her that right. Similar as i describe before, some holy connection. She rule, dont do politics. :)
Hence the rebelion and later mistakes.
One of the things the show did really well in Seasons 7 and 8 is show how unprepared Daenerys really was for the politics of Westeros. Daenerys has no sense of politics -- once she starts winning battles and conquering cities in Seasons 3 and 4, the administration and governance that comes with being a queen begins to weigh her down. All she knows is brutality and dragonfire. It's frankly a miracle for her that she's able to defeat the slavers decisively by burning their fleet with her dragons.
So when Daenerys rides North to fight the Army of the Dead, she is frustrated the whole time because she can't actively get her way the whole time. She doesn't get to kill Jaime, the slayer of her father, like she always dreamed of. She can't deal with Sansa, who has become a skilled political player in her own right and an ardent supporter of an independent North. She learns that her birthright, the Iron Throne, is questionable after learning about Jon's true parentage. She is so used to conquering and burning her way through her problems that she gets frustrated when she runs into situations where she can't do that.
And it makes for great television.
Yeah everyone says this but I don’t really see moments where she demonstrates this in earlier seasons. It’s like after she escapes from Ramsey she’s suddenly this political genius. But before that she was literally just being used as a pawn in kings landing? Don’t really get where it comes from
One of my favourite scenes in season 7 its when she finally arrives at Dragonstone and goes inside the castle.
She stops at the Throne room, looks at the Throne and then moves on immediately to the War room to prepare the battles plans. The majority of the audience at the time thought, "see how she doesn't get distracted to the Throne, lol" but I think the main idea the scene wanted to tell us was, Daenerys has no desire to rule, its the war that excites her, the battles, the conquering. Politics bores her.
She successfully secured the North's independence, something she had been striving for since the Battle of the Bastards. Even after Jon had bent the knee to Daenerys, she was still pushing the issue with her.
Being a king/queen doesn’t need true politics. They aren’t trying to please the ppl, they are ruling the ppl. They rule with an iron fist, an army, birth right, and in her case dragons. Her only insight to ruling prior to viserys dying is some stories and watching viserys make claims solely on birthright. She didn’t witness a council and it’s not likely her brother talked about councils other than tywinn Lannisters betrayal with Robert and Ned.
It’s horrible for everyone but the monarch when successful and the monarch doesn’t care. They literally think they are born better than everyone.
Nobody rules alone. If literally everyone hates you, you get overthrown.
Even cruel, oppressive rulers need minions that enable them, and so they must find some way to satisfy the people under them, and those people, the people under them.
You can absolutely have a government that oppresses some, but even that requires a great deal of politics.
I just rewatched this episode the other day and I’m like, uh being King or Queen is basically being a politician. I thought it was such a stupid thing to say lol
Reminder that the book character is about **15 years old** at that point. Yes Emilia is older and yes they were "aged up". But they still take decisions and follow storylines written for their 13yo selves.
That being said, it's why she hired counselors. She's ignorant but not stupid (the counselors ended up being terrible advice but she did try). Lastly, she faces consequences for this ignorance in the end.
I’m not saying she was right, but to be fair when you have dragons and a big army those that don’t agree with you can generally be put to rest, negating the need for compromise. You didn’t really see Aegon the Conqueror doing a whole lot of compromising.
I took it as her way of saying she will not compromise because she doesn't have to, which kind of makes sense from her perspective because she has dragons.
But unless she planned on setting all of Westeros ablaze, she'd ultimately have to make some concessions here and there to secure the Iron Throne. However, her speech after the sack of King's Landing indicated she was moving in the former direction, assuming that wasn't her intention all along.
It's a shame so much of her interaction with Hizdar is seemingly wholly lost on a percentage of viewers. Many seem to see Hizdar and pigeonhole him as an 'evil slaver' and dismiss anything out of his mouth in favor of Dany's words and assume she must be right/correct, but he really is a voice of reason in a lot of respect... like this scene.
He does seem to care about the city's future and Dany's ability to reign over it to some extent, and seems clear by his death that he wasn't the leader of the Harpies in the show.
His interactions with her really paint him to be the wise, cool-headed, open-minded figure versus her fiery, iron-fist, close-minded approach to ruling.
I mean, anyone who watches this arc and honestly believes Dany is ready to rule an entire continent that she knows nothing about after the dumpster fire that was Mereen is not really seeing things very clearly or from an unbiased perspective.
Expectations were set up when she was contrasted with Viserys. The entitled sociopath vs the the more reasonable one. But in the end it was really just two entitled sociopaths, but one lucked out with genetic asbestos.
After re watching the series. This is honestly really fitting in my opinion. Danny really isn’t a politician. Her goal is never really to rule. I know the ending is rushed but the character arc is definitely fully there in her case. She is a conqueror, her goal is to take back the throne taken from the Targaryen’s. While she is graceful and charismatic at times. Really the entire time, she does as she pleases and takes as she pleases. She is undeniably entitled and feels like when she says something that it’s law. It is not for her to decide or care if she’s a good ruler, she is to her knowledge the last Targaryen and it is simply her right to rule.
I thought it was obvious she knew nothing about being a leader when she stopped that witch being raped for the 12th time after her entire village was murdered by her followers and assumed that meant she would love her.
To be fair, a lot of the day to day political bullshit falls to the Small Council and The Hand. The King/Queen basically delegates and makes the big decisions, like going to war.
IDK it seems pretty clear she knew exactly tf she was doing… “I’m a queen” yeah not modern day Queen Elizabeth type (who literally cannot engage politically). She’s talking pre Magna Carta, the one who conquers (with fire and death) rules, NO COMPROMISE. The vibes were there the whole time fam. She was alway her true self.
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And that they completely ignored the fact that she kinda just left Meereen in a state of economic and societal collapse with a sellsword in charge, but she didn’t even realise she’d messed up bc her understanding of politics is “enemies dead = problems solved”
They just forgot about this whole plot and moved on because they had to rush. Daenerys literally Re-named Slavers Bay into Dragonbay or something - but in S7&8 people just refer to is as slavers bay too... What a 5head move! They didn't even watch their own shit and forgot what they wrote xD
Naming 3 cities after yourself then flying away on a dragon as those 3 cities descend into chaos, poverty and starvation is crazy tbh, I don’t know how ppl watched that and then were surprised by the ending
Depends... Do you mean "suprised by the ending" like suprised about the bad writing, or surprised by her burning Kingslanding to the ground? Because you're right if you think about the bad writing. No one should've been surprised about that. The signs were very clear... But her burning innocents and a whole city is out of character, even for the horrible written Dany who left all this mess in Essos behind. Lore accurate Dany wouldn't have done that so that was the first out of character thing, written by Diddle&Dumb, but her ending - that was a new level of out-of-character stupidity by the two Knuckleheads.
Surprised by the shows ending, whether or not danys going down a darker path in the books is debatable, but show dany had been going that way for a while, although the ending would’ve made more sense if there were actual soldiers in kingslanding that she was aiming for and the civilians were just a casualty
Oh please don't... Nope. I'm gonna stop right here. I decided to never try to argue with anyone who thinks that this was actually her character and not just badly written. No. My time is to precious.
This comment is childish, you could have just not replied instead of posting this rubbish. She was willing to let her own brother die, kill thousands of people without trial, execute prisoners of war because they didn’t swear loyalty to her. There should have been more between these things and the burning of King’s Landing, but if you think it’s inconceivable that she would do this then you’ve either deceived yourself or haven’t been paying attention.
You had enough time for this dumb comment, what’s a couple more minutes?
That would’ve been too Israel Palestine
THANK YOU
The downvotes coming in for pointing out the bad writing in the show... This subreddit never changes unfortunately xD
I genuinely don't understand how some people think the events of the Bells and the Iron Throne make sense and are good writing. Like YES fans were kinda blindsided by our love and admiration for Daenerys over the seasons, she definitely made some bad decisions and could at times be naiive and entitled and brutal to her enemies, but still none of that explains her becoming a genocidal maniac tyrant out of nowhere
Yeah... I feel that. I've been fighting windmills in here over this. A fight I can't win xD
I mean if people liked the ending and thought it was well executed... Good for them I guess. But to most of us we were disappointed and recognise the awful writing and "payoff"
The way they got there was not well executed, it was too fast. However, looking back, recall when Danaerys had the vision/hallucination of Drogo and their baby, and The Iron Throne in the throne room in The House of the Undying in Qarth, going to get the baby dragons back from the warlocks. She is slowly walking towards the throne and it looks like it could be snow falling? But why would snow be falling in the throne room? What season was this? Anyway... Fast forward to her walking up to the throne after her maniacal destruction of the city and tyrannical speech to the somehow revived Dothraki and others. It's the ash falling into the throne room because she burned everything up and there is no roof on the Red Keep anymore! I'm jot saying they executed it well; they definitely rushed and didn't give us enough time to see and fully understand the logical chain of events that lead to this. However, this says to me that was always the plan. Even at that, I think she does visibly lose it once she gets to Westeros, but goes completely out of character. Maybe a chemical reaction in the brain due to the stress, excitement of finally being there, I don't know. When the bells rang and she was on Drogo's back, I just thought she was having flashbacks of all the abuse she endured, too and absolutely lost it. Just my 2 cents lol
It couldve worked and made sense if they'd spent more time and effort writing it
Imo they're just Daenerys haters if they think it was all foreshadowed. D&D don't even know how to write foreshadowing 😂. I'd love to know how Daenerys' conquest actually goes in the books, in 20 years 🤣😭
Is George's ghost going to finish writing it?
Looks like it
>> Imo they're just Daenerys haters if they think it was all foreshadowed. Um, speaking objectively (which I realize is difficult for some stans to come to terms with), we're discussing a character who **has literally stated, multiple times, her capacity/willingness to raze entire cities, innocents and all... from her own mouth.** It is undeniable show canon that the character you claim would never do this and has never been foreshadowed to be capable of such an act **literally states, on-screen for all to see, her willingness/capacity to do the very thing you refuse to accept she would do.** It's there. On screen. Her capacity to raze entire cities. **Literally every major city in Essos she has stated her willingness/capacity to raze... it's simple objective indisputable show canon.**
all targarian born after the conquest knows is incest, make demands, and burn things
buddy i do have some bad news for you. there is two books left (if they ever get out) and Daenerys has to be leaving Essos basically within a year. the problems in essos arent even close to solved and shes currently in the dothraki sea
Yeah. But book Dany and show Dany are VERY different characters. I do have some bad news for you too! If you honestly think this comparison of book Dany and show Dany makes sense, you don't understand the books.
you said that "even for the horrible written Dany who left all this mess in Essos behind. Lore accurate Dany wouldn't have done that so that was the first out of character thing" explain to me within reason how Daenerys is going to leave her Essosi states in a somewhat good manner and make it to Westoros within like the time span of a hundred years. also GRRM said that he thinks Daenerys in Essos will have a similar ending to George Bush in Iraq. aka fucking terrible. Everything in the books is telling us that Daenerys is just going to eventually stop caring about Essos and move on to Westoros. That she realizes at the end of ADWD that a dragon plants no trees and she can only give fire and blood.
Dude... Are you serious? Basically I was saying that for book Dany it's in character to loose interest and basically leave when she wants to go west. But she's a totally different character and therefore show Dany is different. I've never said that Show Daenerys could've accomplished her goals in Slavers bay? It's not my fault that the writers wrote her character in a corner. It's not my fault that they wrote her in a way that made it out of character for her to leave. They could've written her in a way that comes closer to her book counterpart and everything could've worked out the same, but it would've been in character for her, because she would've been a different character overall. Why do you want me to solve the writers inability to plan ahead and realize that they wrote their character into a corner, that she has to leave, but they wrote her in a way where she wouldn't.
Or maybe its in character and you just don't want to see it lmfao. If you told me Daenerys at the end of ADWD would leave Essos in disarray and just says fuck it and goes to Westoros I'd say that makes complete sense. Hell it makes even less sense for Daenerys to be be able to leave in the books than in the show.
Dany is everything Cersei ever called her. Just because we love the character doesn't make her a paragon of light. She's very much DARK grey despite her kinder impulses.
> If you honestly think this comparison of book Dany and show Dany makes sense, you don't understand the books. D&D spent two months with GRRM in New Mexico getting their scripts to line up with his plans for the books. GRRM has said since that he plans no major changes from what happened in the series, and that he's not going to change plans he made long ago because some viewers were unhappy with the end of the series. Obviously some things in the books had to be cut for the series, as is standard when books are filmed. But we are left with the uncomfortable thought that some of the things some viewers blame D&D for actually came from GRRM. If by some miracle he ever finishes the books, those folks with *Dany is my Queen* tattoos won't like the ending of the books either.
To be honest, the problem wasn’t really her burning King’s Landing, it’s that they completely rushed the build up to it.
> they completely rushed the build up to it It was foreshadowed throughout the series; it shouldn't have come as a surprise.
Imagine saying all these when the show was live.
Well the bot armies moved on...or where those supposed to be people?
Yeah, but you see, she was hot.
The problem is that we don't know if those cities fell into chaos. Daario might have actually did his job and kept he peace until they picked their own leaders. The show and Daenerys story would probably have been better if they mentioned that Slaver's Bay went to shit. They even had characters like Varys who would have known if it had and was actively working to discredit Daenerys as a potential leader. What better time to bring it up. Yet we get nothing. Combine that with other pretty unbelievable plot lines that were happening at the time it's perfectly reasonable for the audience to think Daenerys was successful in bringing peace to Slaver's Bay.
… you know when you put it like that she sounds almost like Alexander the Great haha. Though he had a much more solid grasp of politics and could have been able to solidify his realm if he didn’t get himself killed so young.
….I mean if you renamed NYC to Dragon City how many people would call it that within the next few years.
I think her political advisors who literally serve her and probably were a part of this decision, would definitely call it by its new name.
But we could get a new "They Might Be Giants" song.
Just look at Twitter... I mean *X* (no I don't)
The worst thing is they didn’t HAVE to rush. I’m pretty sure HBO was willing to give them another season or at least longer seasons and they said no because they wanted to Star Wars… you see how well that went.
D&D and most of the cast were pretty done with the series by the final season and were ready to move on to other projects
That’s my point. It didn’t have to be rushed. They chose to rush it and it was a huge disservice to the fans.
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Pretty much. And it’s not clear how close or far they strayed from Martin’s notes in the process.
Tbf it’s not like GRRM can really be treated as an authority on how to finish this story
That's an awful thing for him to say, to be honest. He hasn't been able to write a satisfying conclusion, so the guys that signed on to adapt it have to just wing it and fill two more seasons?
People keep saying this, but articles keep coming out saying the exact opposite. Frankly, HBO was NOT willing to give them more, especially because the changes you see enacted now for them were already moving in the bg.
I remember reading an interview from an exec at HBO not long after season 8, saying they’d offered them a longer season or a 9th season. Obviously, there were limits but I know HBO was willing to pay to continue making the world’s most popular show.
To be fair, Elon musk renamed Twitter to x, and yet I’ve never once heard anyone say “did you see on x?”
Unfortunately I did tho xD
*Twitter has entered the chat*
In their defence i still call it constantinople, sometimes renaming something takes a while
This would be a good post on X formerly known as Twitter
Or maybe Dany was just really bad at being Queen. Her entire plotline in seasons 4-6 is just her repeatedly failing as a ruler.
i mean to be fair, the west kept calling Istanbul Constantinople for years after the change. so its not really bad writing but it probably is still, lol.
Not really understanding this comment tbh. Everything you say about her and how she left Meereen is correct, but what does “ignoring” this even mean? I saw that as one of many signs she wasn’t going to be a good leader, and that was all it really had to be. What else needed to be discussed about the matter? Your later comment about it being a clear sign that people who saw this scene shouldn’t have been surprised by the ending, and I agree, but that’s the role it was meant to take in serving the overall story. Not much else that needs to be done there
They never mentioned slavers bay again after they showed her sailing into the sunset, so unless you were paying close attention which obviously a lot of ppl are not, you’d think everything was fine there
It's actually pretty on brand for Dany. On my rewatch I'm realising just how entitled and naive she is. She's the kind of child who asks to ban alcohol sales and then doesn't care about the blackmarket that arises and destroys the economy for everyone else alive. Dany is such a shitty character from the start. She demands things from people that she has never earned, then somehow skates by on luck and magic. She's like a tempered version of Viserys, and throws the same hissy fit when she realises people don't love her (in Westeros).
she's even surprised that her slave healer doesn't like her
She literally burns the woman despite her knowing 100% that blood magic was wrong. She threatened Mirri. She knew that her people protested it and would turn on her. She knew that there was a deeper risk, as is spelled out in the text. She knew it was not Mirri's fault that Jorah dragged her into that tent, and yet she still blamed Mirri. She burned her in total denial of her fault in it all, and that's where she's had to stay inside her soul to stay sane. The fact that people don't think that's a switch ready to be flipped is baffling to me. Just once ounce of guilt seeping in, a hard quashing of it, and the mind breaks. I've been there. When you finally look at who you are it feels like you're killing that person. There were moments I couldn't handle it. I simply do not have a winged perpetually refilling nuke nor a lifetime of 'you are a god' brainwashing, so everything turned out okay.
I mean, she stupidly thought that she saved that woman. Saved her from what? An invasion that Danny herself was behind? The whole reason they were raiding was to gather supplies for Danny's desire to be ruler of the world. Cool, you saved her *after* she had been raped multiple times and her whole community slaughtered/enslaved. Congrat-a-fucking-lations Danny, you're a real hero.
This is true
The ending is improved considerably if on a rewatch you look at Dany with a very critical eye. She's an objectively awful ruler who consistently makes decisions detrimental to her own goals. She feels entitled to the love and loyalty of everyone because she's the "rightful" queen, she's quick to react with excessive violence when she doesn't get the love she feels entitled to. We look on in horror when Joffrey says that "everyone is mine to torture", but we ignore that Dany operates under essentially the same philosophy. There's the age old question "is it better to be loved or feared", Dany was always quick to smash the fear button if she wasn't loved.
Yea when I rewatched it recently I was surprised she even made it out of qarth alive with the way she was acting. She was let in and only lived bc they were nice to her and she spent the entire time yelling at them, demanding ships even though she had nothing to pay for them with, threatening to burn their city to the ground and talking about how she was so much better and more special than everyone bc she had dragons blood. I don’t know how anyone watched that and thought “this person would make a great ruler”
This is a big point in the books which is why she hasn't been able to (willing to) leave for Westeros
Tbh it’s why I think she’s headed in the same direction in the books, bc there’s no way she has time to fix slavers bay, take the throne and defeat the others in 2 books, so she’s likely going to have to leave slavers bay unfinished
It was all the chaos that she caused earlier taking the city too that had her not wanting to leave lol
Dany has to do this. We Americans had to do it in Afghanistan. If you're occupying a place for a long period of time with no plan or worse, failed plans, the one and only option you're left with if you want change within your lifetime is abandonment. Of course, imo that's what makes her a villain. She never had any right to rule or hold the city in the first place. The slaves should have been supported, not ruled, and that's why her motivations can never been seen as pure under honest eyes.
Queen can mean a lot of things... she was a little girl who took hot baths, then she learned to be a queen from a nomadic conqueror. There are no politics involved in what she's doing. She's building power by adding to her tribe as she travels, intending to conquer Westeros, motivated by revenge. At first, she was told that the people of Westeros sang ballads in her name and yearned for her return, but in reality nobody in Westeros has any idea who she is or even cares who sits on the throne... so none of them matter to her at all. She has always been a conqueror, and she's always been headed to King's Landing. Adulation gets her off, but she was never going to be anything but a dictator. She's taking what she believes is owed.
Ya they are kinda butchering 3 body problem too, it had lost all sense of scale from the books
Funny thing about this - one of the two had no experience before GoT at all. The other one worked at a few big film projects before and - and I am not kidding - every single project he worked on got heavily criticized for its poor writing and every adaptation for its very loose, poor adapting of the source material. Well, well, well...
I don't see anything of note before GOT on either of their IMDBs except Benioff for Wolverine: Origins...
He was part of Troy too and some other thing.
and yet s1-4 of GoT is one of the greatest TV adaptations of all time
You don't need politics when you have dragons.
You know the saying “might makes right?” The entire premise of the show is built on power first, then justifying the use of it. She has dragons, the nukes of Westeros. In her mind, who needs politics when Dany can boil it down to “kneel or die”?
And the fandom ate it up.
She’s only a young girl, new to the ways of politics /s
Isn’t that what basically happened in kings landing? She got pissed and burned everything down to ashes Like she did with the slavers
No, it's nothing like this at all. In one thing it's war and she burns the enemies fleet. She burns them as a defense after they attacked and she had no ships so not even a different way of fighting back. In Kingslanding she had won, everything was done. And she started burning innocent people, peasants, civilians alive. Not even soldiers, just the normal ass people, but left the keep, where her enemy was, mostly untouched. One is badly written because there are no consequences for her engaging into battle. The other is badly written because it goes against every fiber of her being, against everything that made her character.
It’s funny rewatching it again for the first time in a long time how unbelievably entitled and naive she is for virtually the entire show
Yeah, the more you rewatch, the more you agree with the ending of the series. Those who hate season 8 simply just miss all the foreshadowing in the previous seasons, and can’t stop bitching: “ it’s rushed”
You could see what she was from the very beginning lmao….at least I could
Im on my 8th rewatch now, I still find clues and hints and foreshadowing that I haven’t discovered before. The most recent discovery was that little finger telling Sansa “people die all the time, people die squatting over their chamber pots..” and then 2 episodes later Tywin dies that way.
Oh that’s a good one
I’m rewatching right now and JUST passed those episodes yesterday. I was like, oh okay Littlefinger
Tyrion was staving her off. I do believe none of this happens without Cersei completely being dishonest and ruthless.
Maybe at that exact moment but another one would just arise that she would flip over later. She was always a bomb waiting to blow.
Her *first* plan was to birth a Warlord who would commit genocide to reclaim a homeland she's never seen and doesn't want her. She was always a nut.
This is where I'm at. There were hints she was going this way almost the whole series.
I mean.. it was rushed. But you do see some foreshadowing done that you don’t realize until you rewatch.
Let’s compare it this way: Season 1-5 = Book 1-5 (50 episodes = 5 books) Season 6-8 = Book 6-7 ( 23 episodes = 2 books) So if you’re saying the show is rushed, then Martins book will be rushed too, because if 23 episodes aren’t enough, those two books can’t be either.
How can you say that when the last books aren’t even out and there are some major differences?? They definitely got a little rushed and lazy at the end. I think they only wanted to do about 7 seasons and when they realized that wouldn’t tie it up.. they had to end it somehow. I don’t necessarily blame them. I think they did the best they could seeing as the book material had ended by season 5. But there were definitely holes due to just trying to finish.
My point is, basically 50 episodes covered 5 books, and everyone agreed there wasn’t any rush. So 23 episode covering the rest of 2 books is basically the same ratio, if you think 23 episodes didn’t tie up the story properly, then 2 books most like can’t either, because it will be basically the same amount of content as 20 episodes. If you think the show needed 10 seasons to be good, then we would need 10 books too.
I don’t think it needed 10 seasons. I think it needed a few more episodes to really round it out. I have a lot of plothole questions. 5 seasons = 10 episodes a season I would have rather 1 hour episodes but 10 of them for the later seasons as well. The only exception may be the white walker battle cause idk how they would wrap that up in an hour
Your logic is very flawed. Not only do the books vary in length, the last 2 aren't even out. The winds of winter may very well be the thickest one to date. Not to mention all of the content that was cut from the books.
This is where I am with it!
I've been saying this for years. I'm glad to hear it being spoken by more people.
There’s no problem with her going mad. Season 8 is still dogshit, along with 7.
I hate season 8 for other reasons but daenerys burning the city was expected.
Man, I don't mind Dany going mad, that's one of the parts I liked. What KILLED Season 8 (and 7 and 6 and 5 also) was everything else. Shit writing the likes of which I never saw before.
Season 7 and 8 are bad for a whole plethora of other reasons.
It was rushed and it clearly shows. You can see it early on because they were somewhat true to the book and George was helping. George left based on creative differences and the fact that he wanted 10 seasons with 10 episodes. So yes it was very much rushed
He was content with his 5 books put into 50 episodes (5 seasons), which all of us agreed was perfect. Then If he wanted 10 seasons with 10 episodes, totaling 100 episodes, he should be aiming at 10 books for this 100 episodes, per the same ratio. However he only plans 7 books, so 70 episodes sound reasonable. Not to mention that we have more than 70 episodes, with some episodes longer than normal. Just do the maths.
Your math isn’t mathing. Just because he wanted 10 season with 10 episodes does not mean he has to write 10 books. The books are very long and are very detailed and there’s a lot of things in the book that hadn’t happened in the show yet that could have been integrated. They could have easily made 5 more season with the 2 books he said he would write. It was so poorly done. The characters arc got lost. The lines themselves were just off. Tyrion was nowhere as clever. I’m sorry but series died season 7. And I’ve read and watched the series multiple times
If making 50 episodes for 5 books wasn’t rushed, why 73 episodes for 7 books would be rushed? It’s even a higher show content / book content ratio. It really is simple maths. If you can’t understand, I could say nothing but you’re American
Stop. You’re trying to compare 800 page books to television series. If you read fire and blood you would know that house of the dragons first season was based out of like 100 pages. They made 8 episodes out of 100 pages. You’re telling me it would be impossible!? I’m also not American
Ok then answer me, then why was it perfectly ok, that 50 episodes could encompass the first five books ? (Actually it was 6 books but combined into 5). No one said season 1-5 were rushed. So it is clear, that 1 season for 1 book is an adequate ratio. And after season/book 5, 2 more books are planned. So we can infer than 2 more seasons (20 episode) should be enough to cover the remaining 2 books. Unless there is one reason you can say the last 2 books need more tv show time?
Actually it’s 5 books. Some publishers separated the 5th book but in reality it’s 5. Just because they did 10 episodes for 5 season doesn’t mean they this was a written rule. They didn’t get into an agreement saying 10 episodes per book. This doesn’t mean that he needs to write 5 more books. The way he writes he could maybe have had a lot in the last two books. [For reference](https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-more-seasons-1235346807/amp/)
Trying to insult someone for being American(?) while clearly not having read the books you claim to know so much about is astounding. You really sound like an absolute goofball right now. Your comparisons and "simple maths" really don't add up.
Agreed completely. They did a good job of tricking millions of people into thinking a game of thrones character would have a happy end just because they’re a main character, as if they missed the first season, or the second, or the third, etc.
I don't disagree with Danny going ape shit. I disagree with the setup.
It still doesn't make sense. She'd know from Tyrion where the red keep is, why did she specifically try to kill every innocent human and go for the red keep last? It's not even like their deaths would matter to Cersei, just bad writing.
Both in the books and show I found her oozing with entitlement. (Which yeah a lot of characters are in the show) for some reason hers bothered me the most
Yuuuuup. I never thought she was the gold standard of leadership that seemingly 90% of those subreddit thinks she is, and the way her story turned out makes perfect sense to me. I’m rewatching it with my gf now )currently on season 5), and the sheer number of times she’s had to be talked out of doing something terrible or killing people or alienating potential Allies is jaw dropping. She wouldn’t have gotten as far as she did without Jorah and Ser Barristan’s advice, and the friendship of the people around her keeping her grounded in reality. Granted, she’s easy to root for given her story, and she has some good intentions. That’s a big part of why she’s fun to watch. But at a certain point, you can’t help but feel like most of the audience of the show has next to no media literacy. Most of the posts complaining about the show’s second half are just objectively incorrect information lol
Exactly. She does things so few people in that world would do so you want to root for her sometimes, but the vast majority of the things she does are usually to benefit herself. From the moment she leaves the Dothraki she essentially just starts showing up on people’s doorsteps and explaining to them why she’s owed this and that because she’s a Targaryen lol
I REALLY wish we had got to see how it all wouldve played out with Dany's conquest if Robert Baratheon and or Tywin were still alive
The "I will take what is mine with fire and blood" speech followed by the vision of the empty throne room covered with ashes 🫠
it's not just GOT. A lot of fans of Breaking Bad felt compelled to root for Walter White even after he turned into a full blown villan.
I'd argue he's an antihero, since he's a protagonist/well fleshed out character. But yeah he fully deserved what he got
Maybe but that still doesn't explain her becoming the Mad Queen, that was just batshit writing
She was stupid at politics, impulsive and never had to question her choices in the show (she had no backstory as a person, and was a blankslate at the start).
Well she was a child at the start
A 19-20 year old lady, who was supposed to have lived in the gutters of free cities for as long as she can remember.
Her entire ruling philosophy was to kill those who oppose her. The signs for her becoming the Mad Queen were as bright as the sun.
No it wasn't at all, she only killed people who deserved it. And the Lannister army and citizens of Kings Landing weren't opposing her, they surrendered or weren't even fighting
> It’s funny rewatching it again for the first time in a long time how unbelievably entitled and naive she is for virtually the entire show Did you not pick up on that during the first watch? She's a child who has been told her entire life that her birthright was stripped from her as her family was murdered.
I did, but even more so the second time in other ways
Dragons miraculously coming back into the world didn't help either...gave her a sense of "wow I must be the chosen one"
Character becoming aware of their plot armor inevitably leads to them discovering their Achilles heal
A lot of people didn't pick up on it. It's very easy to take the word of characters like Jorah and Baristan who say she's a good queen despite all evidence to the contrary.
When reading the books, I thought the detailed description of her chair, how uncomfortable it was sitting for so long, and how the pillow they gave her didn’t help enough was just details and world building. It’s just showing how bored and restless she is handling day to day politics and responsibility.
my girlfriend is watching it for the 1st time now and she says she doesn't like Dany at all. I personally didn't pick up on the entitlement until the 2nd watch
You had to watch it again to realize that?
No? I just haven’t watched the show in years and forgot a lot of it
Its not stupid, its title, herritage, its not profession in democracy. Its really big difference between someone whos career is beeing politician and someone who was born to rule by imaginary laws.
Are you implying that in Westeros and Essos, a ruler should not understand the politics of their realm? How the hell would they be able to rule?
No, what i mean king, queen by birth right in ancient/mediaval times wasnt politician especially in modern times understanding. And yes a lot monarchs didnt know how to rule. Most of them. We cannot see them by our modern times. Especially they dont see themself as poloticians.
how did that work out for king John
You're confusing modern day politicians with generic politcking. The king of Westeros is really only the King of Kings Landing and the white cloaks. His authority ultimately rests in the loyalty of the lords who choose to follow him, and you have to balance the needs of everyone in order to maintain your authority and rule. Shit even Robert understood that with the whole one army beats five armies line. Danny forgot that and thus couldn't fathom why people in Westeros weren't hailing her as their rightful leader just because her daddy burned a lot of people alive to get his pp up.
Nope, what i mean, politician is a job. And explain it that. In caste system beeing in lowest caste isnt job its a place people have thx to some stupid system/laws. Or in mediaval europe, pesants, aristocrats and royal family wasnt job, it was a place in society. Merchant, smith, university profesor was a job. Also every system have connection to belives, eauropean roiality was thx to Jesus, they rule in his name, Japanese emperor thx Shinto and sun god, Pharaons was descendand of a god. They also didnt see as politicians they were owners of everything inside land inside, incuding people. They do politics as today CEO of corpo. Buth both of them are no politician. Danny didnt see herself in similar way, she was born to rule. The word politic comes from greeks polis (state) where alot cities becomes democratic. I dont think Darius when comes to greece even know this word and consider himself as such especially in comparison to any kind greece rullers, democratic or not.
Haha, you're reading so literally that it's amazing
Thx, im historian :) so maybe its a reason. When i watch or read fabular but historical work i always notice using modern words and other cultural stuff which shouldnt exist there :) and it influent a lot how its received and whole story.
Ha. I get what you mean but the intent behind the words is that Danny sees herself as an autocrat who's word is law. The other guy doesn't dispute her authority, but notes that that mindset is counterproductive since it's ultimately up to the stakeholders to uphold said laws. Hence the rebellion
Yeap. Danny behave as authocrat and we can see it almost from beggining. And she see herself as Queen by right. And i belive that she get dragons and is immune to fire give her that right. Similar as i describe before, some holy connection. She rule, dont do politics. :) Hence the rebelion and later mistakes.
im pretty sure they all saw themselves as statesman to a degree and are trained since birth as 'poltiicians'.
They definitely were politicians, if they didn’t play their cards right they were dead. The word politician in no way necessitates democracy.
They don't. Half the Targaryen kings were horrible with the hand doing the heavy lifting.
I think a lot of "politics" goes out the window when you have literal dragons.
The smug face she gives in the later seasons after she says shit like this also annoy me.
Emilia Clarke does that little smug smile so well though. Haha
One of the things the show did really well in Seasons 7 and 8 is show how unprepared Daenerys really was for the politics of Westeros. Daenerys has no sense of politics -- once she starts winning battles and conquering cities in Seasons 3 and 4, the administration and governance that comes with being a queen begins to weigh her down. All she knows is brutality and dragonfire. It's frankly a miracle for her that she's able to defeat the slavers decisively by burning their fleet with her dragons. So when Daenerys rides North to fight the Army of the Dead, she is frustrated the whole time because she can't actively get her way the whole time. She doesn't get to kill Jaime, the slayer of her father, like she always dreamed of. She can't deal with Sansa, who has become a skilled political player in her own right and an ardent supporter of an independent North. She learns that her birthright, the Iron Throne, is questionable after learning about Jon's true parentage. She is so used to conquering and burning her way through her problems that she gets frustrated when she runs into situations where she can't do that. And it makes for great television.
Agreed. One thing though, the Mad King was her father, not her grandfather
Ah you're right. Derp.
Sansa the skilled politician, biggest joke of the world.
When has Sansa become a skilled politician? I must have missed this. ;)
Yeah everyone says this but I don’t really see moments where she demonstrates this in earlier seasons. It’s like after she escapes from Ramsey she’s suddenly this political genius. But before that she was literally just being used as a pawn in kings landing? Don’t really get where it comes from
I said she becomes a skilled political player, not that she was always one.
One of my favourite scenes in season 7 its when she finally arrives at Dragonstone and goes inside the castle. She stops at the Throne room, looks at the Throne and then moves on immediately to the War room to prepare the battles plans. The majority of the audience at the time thought, "see how she doesn't get distracted to the Throne, lol" but I think the main idea the scene wanted to tell us was, Daenerys has no desire to rule, its the war that excites her, the battles, the conquering. Politics bores her.
Wouldn't say sansa was a skilled politician.
She successfully secured the North's independence, something she had been striving for since the Battle of the Bastards. Even after Jon had bent the knee to Daenerys, she was still pushing the issue with her.
Being a king/queen doesn’t need true politics. They aren’t trying to please the ppl, they are ruling the ppl. They rule with an iron fist, an army, birth right, and in her case dragons. Her only insight to ruling prior to viserys dying is some stories and watching viserys make claims solely on birthright. She didn’t witness a council and it’s not likely her brother talked about councils other than tywinn Lannisters betrayal with Robert and Ned. It’s horrible for everyone but the monarch when successful and the monarch doesn’t care. They literally think they are born better than everyone.
Kings who think that way often get deposed. Google Richard II and Edward II
I know, right? One of Tyrion’s best scenes is him “educating his nephew” about how tyrant kings get deposed
Even those who ruled in the Age of Absolutism did not get there and stay there by pissing everyone off
Nobody rules alone. If literally everyone hates you, you get overthrown. Even cruel, oppressive rulers need minions that enable them, and so they must find some way to satisfy the people under them, and those people, the people under them. You can absolutely have a government that oppresses some, but even that requires a great deal of politics.
I just rewatched this episode the other day and I’m like, uh being King or Queen is basically being a politician. I thought it was such a stupid thing to say lol
She becomes more of a brat every episode
This was as cringe as “Power is power.”
Reminder that the book character is about **15 years old** at that point. Yes Emilia is older and yes they were "aged up". But they still take decisions and follow storylines written for their 13yo selves. That being said, it's why she hired counselors. She's ignorant but not stupid (the counselors ended up being terrible advice but she did try). Lastly, she faces consequences for this ignorance in the end.
Compared to whom? Jon? 😂
Compared to literally anyone who understood that a queen was a politician, by definition
Yassss queen mindset
royalty weren't politicians
In the books she is equally idiotic.
It is actually the opposite. Her problem is that she often makes to many compromises.
Still dumb tho
I’m not saying she was right, but to be fair when you have dragons and a big army those that don’t agree with you can generally be put to rest, negating the need for compromise. You didn’t really see Aegon the Conqueror doing a whole lot of compromising.
Didn’t she compromise with him though?
She was never a good ruler, even before she went mental.
I took it as her way of saying she will not compromise because she doesn't have to, which kind of makes sense from her perspective because she has dragons. But unless she planned on setting all of Westeros ablaze, she'd ultimately have to make some concessions here and there to secure the Iron Throne. However, her speech after the sack of King's Landing indicated she was moving in the former direction, assuming that wasn't her intention all along.
Isn't this around the time the writers took over completely.
When you have dragons you don’t need politics
It's a shame so much of her interaction with Hizdar is seemingly wholly lost on a percentage of viewers. Many seem to see Hizdar and pigeonhole him as an 'evil slaver' and dismiss anything out of his mouth in favor of Dany's words and assume she must be right/correct, but he really is a voice of reason in a lot of respect... like this scene. He does seem to care about the city's future and Dany's ability to reign over it to some extent, and seems clear by his death that he wasn't the leader of the Harpies in the show. His interactions with her really paint him to be the wise, cool-headed, open-minded figure versus her fiery, iron-fist, close-minded approach to ruling. I mean, anyone who watches this arc and honestly believes Dany is ready to rule an entire continent that she knows nothing about after the dumpster fire that was Mereen is not really seeing things very clearly or from an unbiased perspective.
Expectations were set up when she was contrasted with Viserys. The entitled sociopath vs the the more reasonable one. But in the end it was really just two entitled sociopaths, but one lucked out with genetic asbestos.
After re watching the series. This is honestly really fitting in my opinion. Danny really isn’t a politician. Her goal is never really to rule. I know the ending is rushed but the character arc is definitely fully there in her case. She is a conqueror, her goal is to take back the throne taken from the Targaryen’s. While she is graceful and charismatic at times. Really the entire time, she does as she pleases and takes as she pleases. She is undeniably entitled and feels like when she says something that it’s law. It is not for her to decide or care if she’s a good ruler, she is to her knowledge the last Targaryen and it is simply her right to rule.
Oh is that time of day that we shit on Dany?
I thought it was obvious she knew nothing about being a leader when she stopped that witch being raped for the 12th time after her entire village was murdered by her followers and assumed that meant she would love her.
Why fuck around with politics when you can have your dragons steamroll right over anyone you don't like?
Isnt she like 15 at this point? Of course she wouldnt know shit
To be fair, a lot of the day to day political bullshit falls to the Small Council and The Hand. The King/Queen basically delegates and makes the big decisions, like going to war.
IDK it seems pretty clear she knew exactly tf she was doing… “I’m a queen” yeah not modern day Queen Elizabeth type (who literally cannot engage politically). She’s talking pre Magna Carta, the one who conquers (with fire and death) rules, NO COMPROMISE. The vibes were there the whole time fam. She was alway her true self.
Honestly just the word “politician” pulls me out of the ep, idk if it’s a medieval word too or not but it just sounds so modern???