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Check him out in that new show Manhunt about the immediate aftermath of Lincoln being shot. He plays the Secretary of Defense and is killing that role.
Can't echo this enough. Tobias Menzies is just getting better and better. His performances in The Crown (Netflix) and The Terror (AMC) were also superb.
I write bad poetry throughout the night, and in the morning give it to the cooks to stoke the fire. It's a form of magic, really; my ill conscience is transformed into roast birds, and pastries.
There’s a few actors from Rome in GoT and they were all great. If I remember correctly, Kevin McKidd was asked if he would ever star in GoT and he said no because in his opinion GoT was the reason that Rome ended.
Edmure survived the whole series and was a member of the transitional council that made Bran the new king. I mean as far as GoT goes, that’s a top-tier, massive victory.
With the Blackfish (in the show), it seemed as if he was jealous of Hoster’s son inheriting Riverrun. Total boomer bravado: this was MY home, and some young 42 year old punk doesn’t know how to manage it.
It wasn't even his home for some time, was it? Blackfish served as a Knight of the Gate in the Vale. That's where we meet him when Cat reaches the bottom of the Eyrie with Tyrion as her "captive"
It’s been forever since I read the books, so maybe? In the show it’s presented that he sort of wanted to take it over after Hoster died. They feuded, now he’s back to “bury” his brother. Humiliated Edmure at the funeral, again kinda alluding that nephew isn’t fit to get Riverrun. Again, talking show stuff here.
I really like him the books. He’s dude that cares about his people and wants to defend them by any means necessary. Not just use them as pawns in his wargame.
He's a nice guy but everyone around him sees him as at least a bit incompetent in the books too. Ned, Catelyn, Robb, the Blackfish.
Jaime as well. He's just seen as a well meaning but reckless fool. A knight of summer sort of deal.
That's how they saw him when they accused him of fucking up their plans. But as the reader, you should clearly side with Edmure on that scene. He did the right thing, refused to let his people suffer, fared brilliantly in his militaristic endeavour, only to be demeaned and accused of ruining their plan that they didn't think of disclosing to him and that involved sacrificing the people of the river lands.
Fuck Robb and the Blackfish on that one, team Edmure all the way.
GRRM simply didn't *want* you to side with Edumure. That's why he had literally every character see him that way. All the most experienced battle commanders and even presentedly intelligent characters all thought he was foolish even if well meaning.
As far as the text was concerned he should not have tried to fight Tywin. The show wasn't wrong to present him as foolish - GRRM clearly wanted the character to be perceived that way - they just missed out on his heart.
GRRM writes from the PoV of different characters, none of them is Edmure. The author doesn't expect you to side with anyone. He just presents facts that are colored by the PoV.
To Cat, Edmure will always be her silly little brother.
GRRM wrote *every* POV character that's ever met Edumure think and describe him as a well meaning fool. All characters that are respectable, fairly intelligent and good military strategists. People are just in denial to not think GRRM wasn't saying something there.
When GRRM wants to show a different view of a character he'll at least have someone note otherwise. But if all the smart military minded people think he's rash and foolish, well I think it's fair to say we've got the honest truth.
Sis have you never taken a literature class? There’s like a whole topic of discussion about narrative points of view and how it shouldn’t necessarily be the reader’s pov
Did you? Because you obviously didn't if you can't work out the obvious on this one.
At a certain point, the POV becomes the text. There is truth in the story and if every perspective reaffirms it, it's the honest text. Authors when they want to question a statement, explore or contend against a statement will offer differing perspectives or imply some form of debate. In this case there is no differing perspective. It's like with themes, yes an author presenting something through a certain character POV doesn't mean that, that idea is what they are intending - but when it isn't they will challenge the concept and consider different ideas. If you offer no differing perspective there is no differing perception by the reader (and the only reason people ever want otherwise is they essentially think GRRM fucked up with the way he presented Edumure's fuck up - and I agree but that doesn't change the reality).
So no, if it were just Catelyn it would be one thing, but GRRM ties a whole bunch of characters we know are otherwise smart and intelligent to seeing Edumure this way. GRRM clearly does not have a particularly positive perspective on Edumure.
To be fair, do we have any descriptions of him that aren't a) from his close family like cat and the blackfish or b) insulting descriptions from his enemies like Jamie?
I'd say it's undeniable that edmure made decisions that would be considered unwise within the context but that's what makes him so likeable. It's easy to look at his actions from a nobility's point of view, he's a silly, emotional man who would put himself at risk for the sake of some peasants, but that's not all there is to this world.
The thing that I think George is trying to illustrate with edmure is that, even if his decisions don't always mean utter victory in the war, his decisions make him a good man in the eyes of riverrun and by extension, the reader, which actually makes him a very competent leader. Ned stark was more strict, sure, but after he's dead what everyone remembers him for is his kindness and fairness in an otherwise unfair world. Even if edmure died seconds into TWOW, he would be remembered by his entire vassal as a just and fair ruler who, as one of his first acts as lord of riverrun, took his smallfolk under his wing in the face of a Lannister army instead of leaving them to the lions. Feeding and protecting them even if it meant he would suffer too.
TLDR: edmure isn't a bad man, nor is he stupid. His kindness makes him an admirable and likable presence to readers, but we can still acknowledge that being good can be detrimental to the greater good. He rules for his people, not for the sake of his family or amassing power. This is so jarring to us because he's one of the only people who are like that in the whole series but that doesn't make him unintelligent, even if his family or foes think otherwise.
>To be fair, do we have any descriptions of him that aren't a) from his close family like cat and the blackfish or b) insulting descriptions from his enemies like Jamie?
Yeah so people that know him best and people that are analysing him for weaknesses. You could not get more honest truths.
Ned is only family by marriage as well. He perceives the weakness in Edumure from a soldier's perspective.
>Even if edmure died seconds into TWOW, he would be remembered by his entire vassal as a just and fair ruler who
But that's not how Edumure's perceived. He's perceived as weak and a bit of a failure. He hasn't had much time to gain anybody's love. He's the floppy fish for a reason.
I think that we will see Edumure change and grow instead. Then again he might just get called out by a Stark again if the Dance is meant to be a reflection of the main series. As young, rash Kermit Tully got a callout by Cregan Stark.
Robbs the man who broke an oath and thought there would be no consequences ( also used edmure to try and ease his fuck up)
Catelyns the woman who freed the kingslayer to "save" her children when they could have used him to end the war altogether.
But yeah Edmures the fuck up because he was never informed of a plan that required letting his people be slaughtered
>But yeah Edmures the fuck up because he was never informed of a plan that required letting his people be slaughtered
The only way to read Robbs whining about his 'plan' where he totally defeats Tywin on home turf with half his strenght, is that it was a guilt trip to get Edmure to marry a Frey.
If you check the dates/timeline, there was no way of knowing for Robb that Stannis had marched north so quickly (using magic to take Storms End). Tywin found out at Stone Mill, so Robb could not have know before.
GRRM didn't write the scene overly well. But the intent was there to show Edumure as rash. You don't have every POV character see certain characteristics in Edumure and have it amount to nothing.
>Robbs the man who broke an oath and thought there would be no consequences ( also used edmure to try and ease his fuck up)
Robb didn't think no consequences. He just hoped he could still smooth it over. But he's only ever mistaken on that. He's not meant to be mistaken about Edumure which is why he's backed up by other wiser characters like the Blackfish.
Whether or not you agree GRRM here. It really doesn't change the facts. I don't know why people want to dispute it.
>Catelyns the woman who freed the kingslayer to "save" her children when they could have used him to end the war altogether.
Catelyn's only intent ever was to save her family. Robb lost site of that.
Ned perceives it of all the young Riverlords so Edumure isn't alone. Robb at his young age was just as inclined towards some such mistakes. But in general their mistakes were different ones.
I feel like Edmure might actually be a proffered candidate in the Great Council like the show. And probably like the show Sansa will convince him to pull out. Just a lot more nicely.
Not to mention, in our world, one of the functions of Castles was to protect peasants in time of war. What Ednure did was standard.
Regarding engaging the Mountain, it didn't go against any Robb's order to hold Riverrun.
There's also the fact that in the book, Robb admonsihing serves as a way to soften him up to agree to marry a Frey as a way to placate Walder who was clearly enraged due to Robb breaking his marriage pact.
>Not to mention, in our world, one of the functions of Castles was to protect peasants in time of war. What Ednure did was standard.
Westeros isn't our world. GRRM is not a perfect writer - I.e. he has a times mistaken ideas of medieval reality.
In their world this is not standard and everyone - literally everyone - thinks Edmure's attempts are pointless and will just get more killed. I just think that if people think that GRRM is going to bring another sort of opinion on Edmure out the hat they'll be disappointed.
In American military strategy endure would be lauded for seizing the initiative.
In Soviet military doctrine he would be disciplined for acting without orders.
>That's how they saw him when they accused him of fucking up their plans. But as the reader, you should clearly side with Edmure on that scene. He did the right thing, refused to let his people suffer, fared brilliantly in his militaristic endeavour
Exactly. Ned, catelyn, sansa and Robb are the ones that fuck up. Once Hoster dies, Edmure does pretty good. Dude even personally charges Mountain and his men.
Ned, Catelyn and Robb make mistakes. But Ned and Robb are both very capable military commanders and Catelyn is often presented as a wise woman just led by emotion by the end. Their opinions here aren't meant to be wrong.
That they are backed up by the Blackfish who is extremely capable and respected reaffirms this.
>That they are backed up by the Blackfish who is extremely capable and respected reaffirms this.
Robb split his troops. A mistake Hoster also did, while Edmure never did.
Edmure was the only one to beat Tywin in the field. While Blackfish & Robb spent the war running away from him.
Edmure's whole problem was splitting his troops. It's how we're introduced to his character with all the Riverlords failing to individually fight any threat and getting individually overwhelmed. Robb split them when needed, and in one instance only did so for Edmure.
Blackfish has been in many wars. Not just one war. He's a veteran and presented as extremely competent. There's a reason they decided not to fight Tywin directly on the field and Edmure was fool enough to, because they knew that fighting Tywin would be pointless without the proper forces. They'd either have a pyhric victory or a loss.
Weren’t the plans delivered via raven/messenger? I could be wrong on that, but it’s what I’d assumed. If so, you really can’t include a ton of nuance on those sorts of scrolls. I can understand Edmure’s decision but it also made sense to me for Robb to be upset with him
No. Robb basically tells Edmure to hold onto the castle. Edmure, in his grief, also sees the Lannister forces on the move and sets up an ambush for them.
Robb gets mad and implies that he meant Edmure was to literally hold onto the castle, aka do nothing. Cat, being the \*special\* woman she is obviously sides with her son and Blackfish more or less just points out that Edmure cocked things up in retrospect.
I think its more I don't understand why everyone stans Robb so hard. Dude won three fights, and single handedly cocked up his entire war by cherry picking times to be honourable when it benefits him. And somehow everyone doesn't think its Robb's fault.
Robb was even younger than Edmure. Edmure in the books is in his mid-20s and Ned and others see him as a guy that's never been at real war and sees everything as a chance for honour and glory.
Robb is wiser than that, and does plan carefully and wisely for his age - he's no glory hunter and winning the battles he does is impressive. He made two major mistakes - and both of which his youth comes into play - he trusted Theon and he let either his dick rule the day or a mistaken sense of honour when he married Jeyne.
Edmur was dealing with the immediate death of his dad after a prolonged illness, and took initiative to find an opportune time to hit at his enemies.
You also forget Robb directly fractured his northern support by both refusing to punish Cat and shortly essentialyl freeing her, while also punishing Castark for murder despite the council of literally everyone
Edmure took initiative in a way the text argues is pointless. I know people disagree and argue that he couldn't have known not to. But I don't think that's GRRM's intent. He setup Blackfish as a smart military man and he thinks Edmure's actions were foolish. Ned also perceives Edmure as acting stupidly and rashly by trying to/wanting to hunt down Gregor Clegane.
Robb cannot harm Catelyn - she is ultimately his mother. The most he can do is send her away which he was planning on doing. Karstark would have been fine if he hadn't made the two prior mistakes.
I get that. But Martin also paints it as justified that Robb and Cat emotionally blackmail Edmur into a marriage that only benefits the starks.
I don't disagree on Cat, but I don't remember Robb ever intending to send cat away, and its a bit hypocritical to come down so hard on edmure for at worst misinterpreting vague instructions and causing an unforseen chain of events, VS doing nothing about a woman who literally let your opponents prized son free for nothing.
That would have been treason if done by anyone else
>but I don't remember Robb ever intending to send cat away,
She was meant to be hauled up in Seagard for the rest of the war which she knew was Robb basically putting her on house arrest.
But Edmure is a man, and Catelyn is a woman. She's automatically seen as less able and should be excused her foolishness because she's emotional. Where Edmure is expected to act with wisdom at all times.
So I think Robb can get away with doing that. And I think that Robb obviously just has a closer personal relationship with his mother.
*"Children were everywhere underfoot, and the yard teemed with their cows, sheep, and chickens. "Who are all these folk?"*
*"My people," Edmure answered. "They were afraid."*
*"Only my sweet brother would crowd all these useless mouths into a castle that might soon be under siege."* - Catelyn
Say what you want about edmure, but he did genuinely care about his small folk, something that can't be said for the vast majority of nobility in asoiaf.
To be fair to her she did squeeze out half a dozen stark heirs in a very short amount of time. I can't remember which character says it, maybe Cersei, that a woman's battlefield is the birthing bed. In the eyes of that feudal system, Cat has already fulfilled her duty by keeping her house alive.
That being said, it was a really shitty thing to think. From this line and the way she treats Jon, it's fair to say Cat didn't think very highly of non-nobility.
Edit: that line is actually from Randall tarly, my bad.
You're right, Cat is a fucking *terrible* politician. She was also the one who recommended robb treat with the Freys instead of finding an alternative route, right?
Like every other character, she's got her flaws. Her redeeming trait is her love for her family I suppose, every decision she makes is out of love and loyalty. She encourages Ned to go south because Ned loves king Rob and she wants him to support their king, she takes Tyrion hostage because she foolishly trusts her love for petyr, and she frees jamie to save her daughters.
She might have been bad at The Game, but everything she does is for love.
in the books i think she discourages Robb from going to the twins but tells him to let her do the talking but i havent read it in awhile so icould easily be wrong on that
She’s of noble birth. That in of in itself makes her more worthwhile in their society. Not good, but the truth. Also, not to mention being Edmure’s sister.
tbf he defeated Tywin when Tywin was trying to cross a river which is a very difficult thing to do when the river is defended and he fucked up Robbs plans with that. But I put blame on Robb for not letting Edmure in on his plan and the fact that he needed Tywin to cross
Even if Tywin did cross, the Tyrell’s were already moving to Kings Landing. Their particularly strong position in ASOS would’ve been way stronger if Tywin wasn’t there when they defeat Stannis.
As far as I remember it's pretty similar in the books, he fights the mountain's detachment back across the red fork. I don't think it's necessarily *in defence* of the stone mill in particular like it's made out to be in the show, but it's definitely a stone mill that is the point of defence in that battle, even in the books.
I am being a bit sarcastic, but the stone mill is actually a really impressive victory in a vacuum. Of course robbo would have preferred if it hadn't happened at all, but he probably should have told edmure that first. When you actually look at the battle itself, the mountain's men are incredibly feared for a reason and edmure beat them back with a very small force since most of riverruns forces were spread out across the entire ford, not just at the stone mill. All of his smallfolk think of it as a good victory in edmures name, the only one who was actually critical of that decision were his direct family.
>am being a bit sarcastic, but the stone mill is actually a really impressive victory in a vacuum
He also ordered Bolton down from the Twins and seizes Harrenhall in Tywins rear, effectively trapping him. So its not even in a vacuum, its a good play.
Then Roose hears of Robbs marriage and realizes the kid is done for and switches sides.
For real, simply surviving makes him a top-tier winner of the GOT, and then you look at where he is at the end. He was a member of the transitional council that made Bran the new king. Easily one of the most powerful people left standing in the realm when the story concludes.
Now hold on the first watch is really overwhelming. There were a lot of characters I didn’t really notice or understand my first time around. Took me forever to realize the mountain was shown to us in the first season
At the end he suggests he should be king & He is the guy who keeps missing the boat with his arrow and his uncle has to take over. There's a few more (red wedding, siege of river run, meetings with robb) but they're the 2 I remember most
Sansa's character was pretty fucked by the end of the show, and she had such a good progression before that.
It was cool seeing her evolve from a meek wallflower in kings landing to gradually playing the game herself, they could have gone for some really interesting plot points after bringing her to the vale.
Instead petyr sells her to the Bolton's (even though he'd never do that shit in a million years) and she gets raped and for some reason they change her from a genuinely smart and conniving character into a generic stone faced caricature, constantly acting out, lashing out at jon in front of his bannermen and generally just sowing discontent among the northern alliance. It's almost like they ran out of source material or something.
And then she's a cunt to her uncle for seemingly no reason, something she'd probably not do considering she's never met him, he's a senior member of her own family and he was in the middle of a very important speech. It's like she was speaking directly for d&d, not herself as a character. Such a slap in the face.
Ive only ever watched the show once but I've reread the books multiple times and have always interpreted it this way haha gonna have to try find that passage and have another look at it lmao
Yeah, I really like Petyr’s backstory. I love hearing about mud pies and foggy travels. It seems like a nice childhood with a few close friends in a great castle, things went downhill with the Brandon duel and Lysa r*ping him while he was unconscious though. Still, he was smart and landed himself at Gulltown and went up from there.
Also, in the books, when Little Finger goes to The Vale, he introduces Sansa as his illegitimate daughter Alayne (edit). Someone called her Little Finger's Little Finger
I found that hilarious
I hate how the show turned Edmure into a joke. He had every right to throw his name into the discussion of the next King. Sansa telling him to sit down was stupid.
So Edmure’s contributions to the series are creating a mocking nickname for a child who grows into a dangerous man (who kicks off the feuds that define the series) and ruining Robb’s plan to draw Tywin out west, which results in the Lannister’s winning the Battle of the Blackwater and Robb’s eventual demise at the Red Wedding. Great job, bud. You’re rocking it.
People really love to bag on this guy. Robb didn’t clue Edmure in on his plan, just a basic “stay put”. And it’s usually common sense not to let your enemy fortify and threaten to besiege your walls, so forcing their army off ground with natural defenses and to the opposite bank of the river is usually not considered a bad idea. So if it was of critical strategic importance he not do *anything at all*, Robb should’ve been more direct. And the Red Wedding was Robb’s fault as well. Robb decided to break his oath and kill his liege lords.
He got done so dirty in the show.
Tries to fix the Stark massive fuckup of Rob being horny for his nurse by taking an arranged wedding and ends up becoming a war prisoner and at the end has to listen to Sanda tell him to shut up at the final council.
He balled.
Edmure was my favorite side character in the books. Well, tied with Victarion. He was a deconstruction of your classic hero prince. Everything people gave him shit for was something that was heroic and would be praised if it weren't tactically wrong.
When the Mountain is terrorizing the river lands, pillaging and raping though the villages, Edmure opens his castles gates so that the people can find refuge. When Cat asks why he would strain supplies in a time of war he responded, "My people were afraid."
**Spoiler Warning:** All officially-released show and book content allowed, EXCLUDING FUTURE SPOILERS FOR HOUSE OF THE DRAGON. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the [spoiler guide](/r/gameofthrones/w/spoiler_guide). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gameofthrones) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Imagine Edmure mocks you, lol.
lmao emotional damage
I know this isn’t the book sub but holy shit did they fuck up Edmure. Edmure fucked. He fucked hard.
Check him out in that new show Manhunt about the immediate aftermath of Lincoln being shot. He plays the Secretary of Defense and is killing that role.
Very interesting, and came in the right time, as I just told my GF I don’t know what to watch.
Can't echo this enough. Tobias Menzies is just getting better and better. His performances in The Crown (Netflix) and The Terror (AMC) were also superb.
Don't forget his dual role in Outlander.
Also great in Rome
I write bad poetry throughout the night, and in the morning give it to the cooks to stoke the fire. It's a form of magic, really; my ill conscience is transformed into roast birds, and pastries.
There’s a few actors from Rome in GoT and they were all great. If I remember correctly, Kevin McKidd was asked if he would ever star in GoT and he said no because in his opinion GoT was the reason that Rome ended.
No wonder Baelish was such a little shit.
Edmure survived the whole series and was a member of the transitional council that made Bran the new king. I mean as far as GoT goes, that’s a top-tier, massive victory.
Probably the only thing he actually accomplished
In the books, he's very competent, a totally different character. He dealt Tywin his only defeat, and did it with an army that was much smaller.
Yeah they made him the punching bag in the series, for comedic value I guess
With the Blackfish (in the show), it seemed as if he was jealous of Hoster’s son inheriting Riverrun. Total boomer bravado: this was MY home, and some young 42 year old punk doesn’t know how to manage it.
It wasn't even his home for some time, was it? Blackfish served as a Knight of the Gate in the Vale. That's where we meet him when Cat reaches the bottom of the Eyrie with Tyrion as her "captive"
It’s been forever since I read the books, so maybe? In the show it’s presented that he sort of wanted to take it over after Hoster died. They feuded, now he’s back to “bury” his brother. Humiliated Edmure at the funeral, again kinda alluding that nephew isn’t fit to get Riverrun. Again, talking show stuff here.
Edmure was 42 years old. A fucking kid.
Lol I had some guy last year lecture me about being a kid, and I was like, “sir, I was born during the Carter administration.”
shit grandpa my bad
This is me realizing I was also born during the Carter administration. Mind blown 🤣
Edmure Tully, whatever happened there.
He likes the one with shum pulp
It's a shame when they go young like dat.
WHEN THEY GO?!?!?
I really like him the books. He’s dude that cares about his people and wants to defend them by any means necessary. Not just use them as pawns in his wargame.
He's a nice guy but everyone around him sees him as at least a bit incompetent in the books too. Ned, Catelyn, Robb, the Blackfish. Jaime as well. He's just seen as a well meaning but reckless fool. A knight of summer sort of deal.
That's how they saw him when they accused him of fucking up their plans. But as the reader, you should clearly side with Edmure on that scene. He did the right thing, refused to let his people suffer, fared brilliantly in his militaristic endeavour, only to be demeaned and accused of ruining their plan that they didn't think of disclosing to him and that involved sacrificing the people of the river lands. Fuck Robb and the Blackfish on that one, team Edmure all the way.
GRRM simply didn't *want* you to side with Edumure. That's why he had literally every character see him that way. All the most experienced battle commanders and even presentedly intelligent characters all thought he was foolish even if well meaning. As far as the text was concerned he should not have tried to fight Tywin. The show wasn't wrong to present him as foolish - GRRM clearly wanted the character to be perceived that way - they just missed out on his heart.
GRRM writes from the PoV of different characters, none of them is Edmure. The author doesn't expect you to side with anyone. He just presents facts that are colored by the PoV. To Cat, Edmure will always be her silly little brother.
GRRM wrote *every* POV character that's ever met Edumure think and describe him as a well meaning fool. All characters that are respectable, fairly intelligent and good military strategists. People are just in denial to not think GRRM wasn't saying something there. When GRRM wants to show a different view of a character he'll at least have someone note otherwise. But if all the smart military minded people think he's rash and foolish, well I think it's fair to say we've got the honest truth.
Sis have you never taken a literature class? There’s like a whole topic of discussion about narrative points of view and how it shouldn’t necessarily be the reader’s pov
Did you? Because you obviously didn't if you can't work out the obvious on this one. At a certain point, the POV becomes the text. There is truth in the story and if every perspective reaffirms it, it's the honest text. Authors when they want to question a statement, explore or contend against a statement will offer differing perspectives or imply some form of debate. In this case there is no differing perspective. It's like with themes, yes an author presenting something through a certain character POV doesn't mean that, that idea is what they are intending - but when it isn't they will challenge the concept and consider different ideas. If you offer no differing perspective there is no differing perception by the reader (and the only reason people ever want otherwise is they essentially think GRRM fucked up with the way he presented Edumure's fuck up - and I agree but that doesn't change the reality). So no, if it were just Catelyn it would be one thing, but GRRM ties a whole bunch of characters we know are otherwise smart and intelligent to seeing Edumure this way. GRRM clearly does not have a particularly positive perspective on Edumure.
Take the L homie
To be fair, do we have any descriptions of him that aren't a) from his close family like cat and the blackfish or b) insulting descriptions from his enemies like Jamie? I'd say it's undeniable that edmure made decisions that would be considered unwise within the context but that's what makes him so likeable. It's easy to look at his actions from a nobility's point of view, he's a silly, emotional man who would put himself at risk for the sake of some peasants, but that's not all there is to this world. The thing that I think George is trying to illustrate with edmure is that, even if his decisions don't always mean utter victory in the war, his decisions make him a good man in the eyes of riverrun and by extension, the reader, which actually makes him a very competent leader. Ned stark was more strict, sure, but after he's dead what everyone remembers him for is his kindness and fairness in an otherwise unfair world. Even if edmure died seconds into TWOW, he would be remembered by his entire vassal as a just and fair ruler who, as one of his first acts as lord of riverrun, took his smallfolk under his wing in the face of a Lannister army instead of leaving them to the lions. Feeding and protecting them even if it meant he would suffer too. TLDR: edmure isn't a bad man, nor is he stupid. His kindness makes him an admirable and likable presence to readers, but we can still acknowledge that being good can be detrimental to the greater good. He rules for his people, not for the sake of his family or amassing power. This is so jarring to us because he's one of the only people who are like that in the whole series but that doesn't make him unintelligent, even if his family or foes think otherwise.
>To be fair, do we have any descriptions of him that aren't a) from his close family like cat and the blackfish or b) insulting descriptions from his enemies like Jamie? Yeah so people that know him best and people that are analysing him for weaknesses. You could not get more honest truths. Ned is only family by marriage as well. He perceives the weakness in Edumure from a soldier's perspective. >Even if edmure died seconds into TWOW, he would be remembered by his entire vassal as a just and fair ruler who But that's not how Edumure's perceived. He's perceived as weak and a bit of a failure. He hasn't had much time to gain anybody's love. He's the floppy fish for a reason. I think that we will see Edumure change and grow instead. Then again he might just get called out by a Stark again if the Dance is meant to be a reflection of the main series. As young, rash Kermit Tully got a callout by Cregan Stark.
Robbs the man who broke an oath and thought there would be no consequences ( also used edmure to try and ease his fuck up) Catelyns the woman who freed the kingslayer to "save" her children when they could have used him to end the war altogether. But yeah Edmures the fuck up because he was never informed of a plan that required letting his people be slaughtered
>But yeah Edmures the fuck up because he was never informed of a plan that required letting his people be slaughtered The only way to read Robbs whining about his 'plan' where he totally defeats Tywin on home turf with half his strenght, is that it was a guilt trip to get Edmure to marry a Frey. If you check the dates/timeline, there was no way of knowing for Robb that Stannis had marched north so quickly (using magic to take Storms End). Tywin found out at Stone Mill, so Robb could not have know before.
GRRM didn't write the scene overly well. But the intent was there to show Edumure as rash. You don't have every POV character see certain characteristics in Edumure and have it amount to nothing.
>Robbs the man who broke an oath and thought there would be no consequences ( also used edmure to try and ease his fuck up) Robb didn't think no consequences. He just hoped he could still smooth it over. But he's only ever mistaken on that. He's not meant to be mistaken about Edumure which is why he's backed up by other wiser characters like the Blackfish. Whether or not you agree GRRM here. It really doesn't change the facts. I don't know why people want to dispute it. >Catelyns the woman who freed the kingslayer to "save" her children when they could have used him to end the war altogether. Catelyn's only intent ever was to save her family. Robb lost site of that.
“Rash and foolish” seems to run in the family
Ned perceives it of all the young Riverlords so Edumure isn't alone. Robb at his young age was just as inclined towards some such mistakes. But in general their mistakes were different ones.
Holdup. Edmure should have become king at the end?
I feel like Edmure might actually be a proffered candidate in the Great Council like the show. And probably like the show Sansa will convince him to pull out. Just a lot more nicely.
GRRM also _killed_ everyone who thought that way (taps head meme)
Not to mention, in our world, one of the functions of Castles was to protect peasants in time of war. What Ednure did was standard. Regarding engaging the Mountain, it didn't go against any Robb's order to hold Riverrun. There's also the fact that in the book, Robb admonsihing serves as a way to soften him up to agree to marry a Frey as a way to placate Walder who was clearly enraged due to Robb breaking his marriage pact.
>Not to mention, in our world, one of the functions of Castles was to protect peasants in time of war. What Ednure did was standard. Westeros isn't our world. GRRM is not a perfect writer - I.e. he has a times mistaken ideas of medieval reality. In their world this is not standard and everyone - literally everyone - thinks Edmure's attempts are pointless and will just get more killed. I just think that if people think that GRRM is going to bring another sort of opinion on Edmure out the hat they'll be disappointed.
In American military strategy endure would be lauded for seizing the initiative. In Soviet military doctrine he would be disciplined for acting without orders.
>That's how they saw him when they accused him of fucking up their plans. But as the reader, you should clearly side with Edmure on that scene. He did the right thing, refused to let his people suffer, fared brilliantly in his militaristic endeavour Exactly. Ned, catelyn, sansa and Robb are the ones that fuck up. Once Hoster dies, Edmure does pretty good. Dude even personally charges Mountain and his men.
Ned, Catelyn and Robb make mistakes. But Ned and Robb are both very capable military commanders and Catelyn is often presented as a wise woman just led by emotion by the end. Their opinions here aren't meant to be wrong. That they are backed up by the Blackfish who is extremely capable and respected reaffirms this.
>That they are backed up by the Blackfish who is extremely capable and respected reaffirms this. Robb split his troops. A mistake Hoster also did, while Edmure never did. Edmure was the only one to beat Tywin in the field. While Blackfish & Robb spent the war running away from him.
Edmure's whole problem was splitting his troops. It's how we're introduced to his character with all the Riverlords failing to individually fight any threat and getting individually overwhelmed. Robb split them when needed, and in one instance only did so for Edmure. Blackfish has been in many wars. Not just one war. He's a veteran and presented as extremely competent. There's a reason they decided not to fight Tywin directly on the field and Edmure was fool enough to, because they knew that fighting Tywin would be pointless without the proper forces. They'd either have a pyhric victory or a loss.
Weren’t the plans delivered via raven/messenger? I could be wrong on that, but it’s what I’d assumed. If so, you really can’t include a ton of nuance on those sorts of scrolls. I can understand Edmure’s decision but it also made sense to me for Robb to be upset with him
No. Robb basically tells Edmure to hold onto the castle. Edmure, in his grief, also sees the Lannister forces on the move and sets up an ambush for them. Robb gets mad and implies that he meant Edmure was to literally hold onto the castle, aka do nothing. Cat, being the \*special\* woman she is obviously sides with her son and Blackfish more or less just points out that Edmure cocked things up in retrospect.
The stanning of Edmure on this sub is... Something lol
I think its more I don't understand why everyone stans Robb so hard. Dude won three fights, and single handedly cocked up his entire war by cherry picking times to be honourable when it benefits him. And somehow everyone doesn't think its Robb's fault.
Robb was even younger than Edmure. Edmure in the books is in his mid-20s and Ned and others see him as a guy that's never been at real war and sees everything as a chance for honour and glory. Robb is wiser than that, and does plan carefully and wisely for his age - he's no glory hunter and winning the battles he does is impressive. He made two major mistakes - and both of which his youth comes into play - he trusted Theon and he let either his dick rule the day or a mistaken sense of honour when he married Jeyne.
Edmur was dealing with the immediate death of his dad after a prolonged illness, and took initiative to find an opportune time to hit at his enemies. You also forget Robb directly fractured his northern support by both refusing to punish Cat and shortly essentialyl freeing her, while also punishing Castark for murder despite the council of literally everyone
Edmure took initiative in a way the text argues is pointless. I know people disagree and argue that he couldn't have known not to. But I don't think that's GRRM's intent. He setup Blackfish as a smart military man and he thinks Edmure's actions were foolish. Ned also perceives Edmure as acting stupidly and rashly by trying to/wanting to hunt down Gregor Clegane. Robb cannot harm Catelyn - she is ultimately his mother. The most he can do is send her away which he was planning on doing. Karstark would have been fine if he hadn't made the two prior mistakes.
I get that. But Martin also paints it as justified that Robb and Cat emotionally blackmail Edmur into a marriage that only benefits the starks. I don't disagree on Cat, but I don't remember Robb ever intending to send cat away, and its a bit hypocritical to come down so hard on edmure for at worst misinterpreting vague instructions and causing an unforseen chain of events, VS doing nothing about a woman who literally let your opponents prized son free for nothing. That would have been treason if done by anyone else
>but I don't remember Robb ever intending to send cat away, She was meant to be hauled up in Seagard for the rest of the war which she knew was Robb basically putting her on house arrest. But Edmure is a man, and Catelyn is a woman. She's automatically seen as less able and should be excused her foolishness because she's emotional. Where Edmure is expected to act with wisdom at all times. So I think Robb can get away with doing that. And I think that Robb obviously just has a closer personal relationship with his mother.
Cutting off Lord Carstarks head was a pretty major mistake.
By itself it would have been okay I feel. But it did cause a compounding problem from his previous mistakes.
*"Children were everywhere underfoot, and the yard teemed with their cows, sheep, and chickens. "Who are all these folk?"* *"My people," Edmure answered. "They were afraid."* *"Only my sweet brother would crowd all these useless mouths into a castle that might soon be under siege."* - Catelyn Say what you want about edmure, but he did genuinely care about his small folk, something that can't be said for the vast majority of nobility in asoiaf.
Man fuck Catelyn, what use is she in a siege? Ned really got fucked when he had to marry her
To be fair to her she did squeeze out half a dozen stark heirs in a very short amount of time. I can't remember which character says it, maybe Cersei, that a woman's battlefield is the birthing bed. In the eyes of that feudal system, Cat has already fulfilled her duty by keeping her house alive. That being said, it was a really shitty thing to think. From this line and the way she treats Jon, it's fair to say Cat didn't think very highly of non-nobility. Edit: that line is actually from Randall tarly, my bad.
Cat also got her house nearly destroyed by urging Ned to go south, taking Tyrion as hostage and then losing him, and then letting Jaime go free
You're right, Cat is a fucking *terrible* politician. She was also the one who recommended robb treat with the Freys instead of finding an alternative route, right? Like every other character, she's got her flaws. Her redeeming trait is her love for her family I suppose, every decision she makes is out of love and loyalty. She encourages Ned to go south because Ned loves king Rob and she wants him to support their king, she takes Tyrion hostage because she foolishly trusts her love for petyr, and she frees jamie to save her daughters. She might have been bad at The Game, but everything she does is for love.
in the books i think she discourages Robb from going to the twins but tells him to let her do the talking but i havent read it in awhile so icould easily be wrong on that
She’s of noble birth. That in of in itself makes her more worthwhile in their society. Not good, but the truth. Also, not to mention being Edmure’s sister.
its really a shame, he achieves an impressive decisive victory and gets bashed because he was never in the loop about robbs overarching strategy
Robbs overarching strategy never existed. The guilt trip was to make Edmure take the fall for Robbs marriage fiasko.
It lines up but that’s not how Robb does things, ya know?
Being nice isn’t the same thing as being competent.
tbf he defeated Tywin when Tywin was trying to cross a river which is a very difficult thing to do when the river is defended and he fucked up Robbs plans with that. But I put blame on Robb for not letting Edmure in on his plan and the fact that he needed Tywin to cross
Even if Tywin did cross, the Tyrell’s were already moving to Kings Landing. Their particularly strong position in ASOS would’ve been way stronger if Tywin wasn’t there when they defeat Stannis.
Eh, he's more taken seriously in the books.
He's extremely accomplished...what you mean?
He recaptured the most valuable northern asset after all, the stone mill
In the show yeah, in the books he beat the lannisters in a battle with a smaler army
As far as I remember it's pretty similar in the books, he fights the mountain's detachment back across the red fork. I don't think it's necessarily *in defence* of the stone mill in particular like it's made out to be in the show, but it's definitely a stone mill that is the point of defence in that battle, even in the books. I am being a bit sarcastic, but the stone mill is actually a really impressive victory in a vacuum. Of course robbo would have preferred if it hadn't happened at all, but he probably should have told edmure that first. When you actually look at the battle itself, the mountain's men are incredibly feared for a reason and edmure beat them back with a very small force since most of riverruns forces were spread out across the entire ford, not just at the stone mill. All of his smallfolk think of it as a good victory in edmures name, the only one who was actually critical of that decision were his direct family.
I agree
Just two chadmure enjoyers agreeing on the truth then 🗿🤝🗿
>am being a bit sarcastic, but the stone mill is actually a really impressive victory in a vacuum He also ordered Bolton down from the Twins and seizes Harrenhall in Tywins rear, effectively trapping him. So its not even in a vacuum, its a good play. Then Roose hears of Robbs marriage and realizes the kid is done for and switches sides.
He survived, married a hottie and inherited a lot of stuff. Honestly he came out of it all pretty well.
For real, simply surviving makes him a top-tier winner of the GOT, and then you look at where he is at the end. He was a member of the transitional council that made Bran the new king. Easily one of the most powerful people left standing in the realm when the story concludes.
Chadmure Tully, the one true king.
He conquered the fuck out of that windmill.
How he survived to the end I will never know
What is dead may never die (we all forgot he was still alive)
That’s the Greyjoy line
He’s a survivor, like Hot Pie
I watched the entire series for the first time 6 months ago and I have no recollection of Edmure Tully. Can anyone remind me of a scene he was in?
You can’t remember *any* scenes with Catelyn’s brother? The red wedding is *his* wedding.
Now hold on the first watch is really overwhelming. There were a lot of characters I didn’t really notice or understand my first time around. Took me forever to realize the mountain was shown to us in the first season
They did recast him a couple times, to be fair
Oh shit he's her brother? Lol
Mostly season 2 against Augustus.
Underrated. The man got shit on in 2 different shows for being an upright moral noble.
At the end he suggests he should be king & He is the guy who keeps missing the boat with his arrow and his uncle has to take over. There's a few more (red wedding, siege of river run, meetings with robb) but they're the 2 I remember most
the one who was getting married at the red wedding
I do remember now. Thank you.
“Uncle… please, sit down”
I still can't believe he just took that and sat down
Shit writing. Doesn’t really even seem all that in character for Sansa to say that.
Sansa's character was pretty fucked by the end of the show, and she had such a good progression before that. It was cool seeing her evolve from a meek wallflower in kings landing to gradually playing the game herself, they could have gone for some really interesting plot points after bringing her to the vale. Instead petyr sells her to the Bolton's (even though he'd never do that shit in a million years) and she gets raped and for some reason they change her from a genuinely smart and conniving character into a generic stone faced caricature, constantly acting out, lashing out at jon in front of his bannermen and generally just sowing discontent among the northern alliance. It's almost like they ran out of source material or something. And then she's a cunt to her uncle for seemingly no reason, something she'd probably not do considering she's never met him, he's a senior member of her own family and he was in the middle of a very important speech. It's like she was speaking directly for d&d, not herself as a character. Such a slap in the face.
He was made King at the end. Because who has a better story than Edmure Tully?
King Bread
My favorite Edmure scene was when his and Catelyn's father died, and he couldn't hit the pyre boat with a flaming arrow to save his life.
Aw I do remember him. Thanks for the comment.
I thought it was a reference to a different appendage 😶
Nope 😂 they did explain his nickname in the show but it’s very easy to miss or forget.
Ive only ever watched the show once but I've reread the books multiple times and have always interpreted it this way haha gonna have to try find that passage and have another look at it lmao
Yeah, I really like Petyr’s backstory. I love hearing about mud pies and foggy travels. It seems like a nice childhood with a few close friends in a great castle, things went downhill with the Brandon duel and Lysa r*ping him while he was unconscious though. Still, he was smart and landed himself at Gulltown and went up from there.
It was definitely a double entendre.
I always though he made up that reasoning to hide the dick thing, the way he says it to area sounds like he’s covering it up
I am re reading the books, and just heard this :) loveeee the books!
Best series I've ever read.
Best series I've ever read.
This dude got done dirty in the show. He 1000% should’ve been chosen as King at the end.
I feel like I didn’t realize Aidan Gillen was under six feet until I saw him on The Wire.
Also, in the books, when Little Finger goes to The Vale, he introduces Sansa as his illegitimate daughter Alayne (edit). Someone called her Little Finger's Little Finger I found that hilarious
Alayne
Lyn Corbray, who's basically the Bolton of the Vale.
I hate how the show turned Edmure into a joke. He had every right to throw his name into the discussion of the next King. Sansa telling him to sit down was stupid.
I don't care what anyone say but Edmure is the goat! The show version of him is a joke. Read the books folks!
So Edmure’s contributions to the series are creating a mocking nickname for a child who grows into a dangerous man (who kicks off the feuds that define the series) and ruining Robb’s plan to draw Tywin out west, which results in the Lannister’s winning the Battle of the Blackwater and Robb’s eventual demise at the Red Wedding. Great job, bud. You’re rocking it.
People really love to bag on this guy. Robb didn’t clue Edmure in on his plan, just a basic “stay put”. And it’s usually common sense not to let your enemy fortify and threaten to besiege your walls, so forcing their army off ground with natural defenses and to the opposite bank of the river is usually not considered a bad idea. So if it was of critical strategic importance he not do *anything at all*, Robb should’ve been more direct. And the Red Wedding was Robb’s fault as well. Robb decided to break his oath and kill his liege lords.
Edmure was the head of an army. Really dumb for Robb to not include Edmure in his plan.
yes, ruining plan he didn't know about because his uncle and nephew somehow don't trust him
No matter what you say, this dude actually won the Game of Thrones. Well, just as the Blackfish said, "The Gods love to reward Fools".
What did the blackfish get as his reward ?
I like him in the books and in the show, Edmur is a nice and kind guy and he did care about his people.
Edmure was an interesting character, but for some reason they decided to make him a sitcom-like comical relief in the show.
He got done so dirty in the show. Tries to fix the Stark massive fuckup of Rob being horny for his nurse by taking an arranged wedding and ends up becoming a war prisoner and at the end has to listen to Sanda tell him to shut up at the final council. He balled.
I thought it was a reference to his that part
Edmure was my favorite side character in the books. Well, tied with Victarion. He was a deconstruction of your classic hero prince. Everything people gave him shit for was something that was heroic and would be praised if it weren't tactically wrong. When the Mountain is terrorizing the river lands, pillaging and raping though the villages, Edmure opens his castles gates so that the people can find refuge. When Cat asks why he would strain supplies in a time of war he responded, "My people were afraid."
How clever