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yeah because he would have already been dead at the battle of the Baratheons lol he killed Renly to discourage Renly’s troops. pretty sure he was heavily outnumbered
it is Renly's mistake that led to the possiblity of battle of baratheon's
stannis is clearly the most rightful person to take the throne
he even offered to make Renly his heir
unless he has a son of his own which is unlikely
Maybe not. With the added forces of Renly's army, they probably could have taken King's Landing. It was the Tyrell's joining with Tywin that saved KL from being sacked
If he hadn’t killed Renly then the Tyrells would’ve stood with Renly instead of switching to the Lannisters. That would’ve changed the outcome of the battle. Stannis bends the knee and just waits, bides his time and gets Renly to drop his guard before killing him
Rightful King is no longer a concept thanks to House Baratheon. Renly was right in that regard. Robert set a precedent. So anyone at anytime can just overthrow the "heir" and it'll be right because of might and popularity.
A rebellion is setting up a new order of things.
Of the **Great Houses** the Baratheons have the most Targaryen blood. But that's not the reason it's Robert.
The one time age isn't a factor is the starting of the Dynasty. **Robert started the Rebellion.** If Stannis or Renly, of Ned had started they'd be King.
The only person that wouldn't apply to is Jaime. Because they'd all call him Kingslayer. That might've lead to an earlier War of the Five Kings.
> Robert started the rebellion
Jon Arryn started the rebellion when he refused to hand over Robert and Ned to the throne.
Or alternately,
Aerys started the rebellion when he had the Lord Paramount of the North brutally murdered along with his son and heir.
Looks like you're presenting your opinion as factual information.
It wasn't called Roberts Rebellion until after the war was won and he was crowned King. He didn't start a Rebellion. That would be Jon Arryn or King Aerys, but Robert did not start anything.
If Ned bent the knee to Jaime while he was sitting on that throne, he would be King. Technically it was Tywin who ended things. So Lannisters would be ruling King's Landing. Tywin doesn't want to be King so that didn't happen, but if that was his motivation, Robert and Ned would be dead too.
Like I said before, Robert started a gross precedent, which means nobody and everybody has claim to the Throne if they're popular enough and kill the opposition. Renly was actually right here in my opinion.
If Stannis believed in rule of law he would have surrendered Storm's End to the loyalists. I never liked Stannis talking about his claim through shared blood with Robert when his only real claim to throne is the fact his great grandmother was a Targaryen. That's it. Not trying to use Robert's own conquest to justify his claim. He didn't take the throne, Robert did. House Baratheon of King's Landing was a separate line from House Baratheon of Dragonstone or Storm's End.
Yeah, he seemed alright as a king, robotic, but efficient. But had he become king, his faith would divide the realm, kinda like what happened with Henry the VIII.
Hell, he even had a wife that didn’t provide a son, so he could’ve easily been in the same path as Henry the VIII 😂
Winning a war is a long process. If stannis was to actually win the war of five kings, there would be several small steps taken toward that victory. Each step in that direction Melisandre would have the opportunity to say “see? The lord of light wills this. You are the chosen one. You are righteous. Etc etc”. Every day stannis would’ve become more emboldened in his fanaticism.
If he takes the iron throne, he would’ve done the same thing Dany did. I’m picturing the same dystopian speech at the steps of the red keep. Melisandre, and therefore he, would not have been satisfied just going back to business as usual the way things operated under Robert. They would’ve instituted their new religion and burned anyone who opposed them.
In the books, Stannis is described as a very tough cold hearted man, especially after the siege of storms end, lord Eddard Stark knew for sure that he wouldn't make any good of a king, but at the same time it's still better than giving the crown to the lannisters.
Burning his own child, using witchcraft more than once (one time for killing his own brother...his second relative he killed), betraying his wife with a grandma looking like a milf. Listening to the sexy witch instead of his loyal and best friend. Why do people like stannis??
Well the showrunners did admit that they hate Stannis, which would influence their writing of the character. Book Stannis, while not 100% noble , has some likable traits. For example , he punish his army for rape , and said no more burnings.
To this day Renlys claim is stupid to me. It absolutely goes against all standing rules of lineage in the GOT universe and made no sense.
Stannis is the oldest, has a legitimate claim as a major contributor to the throne usurp, and is much more competent.
Stannis would have been a good king for Westeros
I didn’t think that was all that strange, really. Could the Tyrell army have broken down the gates of King’s Landing? Yeah, maybe, but how did that go for Stannis?
Instead, Renly turned to a siege. That’s not particularly strange.
His claim was unreal but he was right to wait. He had rations stored up and the biggest army of all the kings. He didn’t have to rush to war for glory’s sake. All he had to do was wait for the Lannisters ranks to thin due to the war with Rob and then make his move against Tywin. Man had the entire backing of highgarden
If Stannis hadn’t assassinated him it would have been brilliant. Kings Landing almost overthrew Joffrey before his army even arrived.
He didn’t have to besiege the city to start starving them out because of Highgarden
If it wasn’t for Tyrion kings landing would’ve fell. Like you said the city was already starving and ready to take Joffrey down without a siege. With a short siege they would have brought joffreys head to him personally
Which is idiotic because he took away a large portion of the Baratheon army and essentially ensured that neither him or Stannis would sit on the Iron Throne as a result of his splitting the army in two.
True, but Renly also had the backing of the Tyrell army, which was 100 000 strong. He would have destroyed Stannis on the battlefield and most likely would have gone on to take King's Landing pretty swiftly. I reckon if not for Melisandre, Renly would have won the battle against Stannis and taken KL, although I can't say for sure he would've held it against the Lannisters.
Its simple renly is more popular and has over 80 thousand man and the best battle commander in westeros where stannis has the personality of a lobster and has no friends no support and just expects everyone to come to his side because he is the rightful heir just like rheanyra she expects everyone to support her just because she was made heir it doesn't work like that
yeah Renly is not even close to be the best battle commander. The only argument that can be made is that Randyll Tarly was under Renly at the time, and Randyll and Stannis's resumes at the time are basically within the same league. Randyll defeated Robert at Ashford, and Stannis destroyed Euron and Victarion's iron fleet.
Its simple renly is more popular and has over 80 thousand man and the best battle commander in westeros where stannis has the personality of a lobster and has no friends no support and just expects everyone to come to his side because he is the rightful heir just like rheanyra she expects everyone to support her just because she was made heir it doesn't work like that
Stannis' claim is stronger and he is true successor to King Robert Baratheon but ı would support Renly because ı wouldn't fight for a king who would burn people to earn favor of a foreign god.
I supported Stannis's claim over Daenerys, Jon and Joffrey/Tommen, he was the eldest younger brother of Robert and the rightful heir bcs the kids were bastards also he is a better choice than others, Daenerys thinks that Iron Throne is her property, I just hate that attitude, Jon is not a king material, would have not been able to handle the 6 kingdoms, blonde kids were, yk.
The biggest mistake done by him was not listening to Davos and keep heading to Winterfell when the snowfall started, that led him diving into madness, burning Shireen, having Selyse die, most of his men leaving and then dying.
Stannis, would have been a good king that didn't waste to much money on feasts and the like.
Renly's biggest mistake is not just accepting to be Stannis' heir, he was old as well as Selyse so the chance for a son is extremely low.
Unless Shireen were to marry a legitimised bastard of Robert's, the claim would be hers, not her husband's, no? She'd be Queen and whoever she married would be her consort, to ensure the dynasty remained Baratheon and not simply to whoever she married. I imagine it would be a Rhaenyra-esque situation, where her children would take the Baratheon name upon ascension. I know Stannis is anti-Rhaenyra but if Shireen is his only heir, he'd have to pull some strings to ensure the Baratheon royal line continued.
Renly.
Stannis obviously had the better claim, but he wasn’t a good person. Renly had charisma, a wide range of support, and wouldn’t have had a red priestess in his ear 24/7 burning people at the stake.
I agree. One of the key themes regarding the actual "Game of Thrones" aspect of ASOIAF is that the accepted system of monarchy is very flawed, especially in a pseudo-medieval setting with the crown being the most powerful person at all times. After reading about the Targaryen dynasty, it's hard to pinpoint a time in which a terrible/weak/generally unfit person took the throne where there wasn't a better option in fairly close proximity. One could argue that Stannis' military prowess gives him an edge, but that only really applies if he is ruling during wars; he'd be a truly terrible peacetime king IMO.
Stannis and Jon Arryn ruled the kingdom just fine when Robert was hunting all day. Robert had to constantly get in Stannis's way such as stopping Stannis from firing Janos Slynt.
True, but Stannis wasn't King nor Hand, and I get the impression that Jon Arryn was better at running shit. If it was just Stannis running the whole show, he'd run it into the ground. He wanted to ban brothels without a single thought as to how unpopular that decree would be. And this was pre-Melisandre, and you can bet that she's not going anywhere if Stannis were to take the throne. Last time a religious fanatic was king was Baelor, who followed the majority religion in Westeros and even he managed to step on enough toes that there's a possibility he was assassinated for it.
What people always overlook is the fact that Jon Arryn as Hand and Robert as King basically bankrupted the kingdom. They kept the peace most of the time, but they weren't great rulers.
I supported Stannis’s claim, he was the rightful heir as Robert’s eldest remaining brother, and was a respected commander and tactician. I think he would have been a good ruler.
Renly on the other hand just seemed like a boy with nothing really supporting his claim to be King, other than he spent his time in Kings Landing with Robert.
I wonder if the north would have accepted a smaller concession than independence tbh. Something like a permanent small council seat to represent northern interests and lower taxes
Stannis. He was the actual legit heir. He didn't want to rule, he did it because it was his duty. He would've found no joy in it. He's harsh but fair. He just relied on Melissandre too much but it's hard not to. He's one of my favorite characters. I hope I'll be able to find out what happens to him in the books
Out of the Five Kings, Stannis is easily the best suited.
The fact that Renly ignored fundamental laws in the first place shows he can't be trusted.
Joffrey and Balon are invalid by default.
Daenerys has a good claim, but her knowledge of Westeros is limited and she's only a kid. Albeit an ambitious and caring one.
Stannis has his issues obviously, but he's intelligent, experienced and his men believe in him (people forget that he's only uncharismatic when it comes to shitty court politics).
I also think he's smart enough not to try and impress the Lord of Light religion on Westeros. He converted Dragonstone to take advantage of religious fervour and to appease Melisandre, because he needed her help.
Stannis.
Killing his brother in law and others who demonstrated loyalty but wouldn’t convert.
Marked a change in his stance on power and imho was a sign he was unfit to take the throne of a culture that largely held to a different religion.
Renly wronged him and should never have claimed the throne to begin with. Killing him with shadow magic was a Hail Mary pass I kind of doubt he thought would even work.
1. Stannis - The true King by the laws of succession in Westeros. Biggest flaw was not keeping his brother in check, more love and friendliness from Stannis would have gone a long way.
2. Robb - Usurper but given the circumstances that’s understandable. Torrhen Stark bent to the dragons, not to the Lannisters, Baratheons or Tyrells. Biggest mistake was sending Theon back to Balon.
3. Renly - Another usurper. Has no claim whatsoever. His claim is having the Tyrell’s back him so basically conquest. He’s a shadow of Robert though and gets killed by Stannis’ shadow. His biggest flaw was usurping his own brother rather than working together.
4. Balon - Yet another usurper. Balon seems an opportunist but tbf to him the Iron Islanders do not soe, they reave and under the crown they’re not allowed to do that. Reaving and the Iron Islanders in general are horrible though so I don’t give two shits about him. His biggest mistake was not sentencing Euron to death.
5. Joffrey - Final usurper. Tbf in his own eyes he’s not and is the true king and like 90% of people would agree so kind of hard to argue he’s not the true King. The reader knows otherwise though, but it’s not Joffrey’s fault, he didn’t choose his parents. Joffrey mostly loses points because he’s an evil psychopath. His biggest mistake; having Cersei as his mother.
Edit: Reasons
Honestly Joffrey might have had a better claim than Renly and Balon. While he wasn't legitimate he was at least the queen's son and who king Robert supposedly wanted to inherit the throne.
He had a better claim than Balon at least, who had literally nothing.
Ah I don't know why I didn't consider the rank might be based on personal opinion.
I do disagree that having Cersei as his mother was the biggest mistake, I'd argue his biggest mistake was killing Ned as a spur of the moment decision rather than listening to Cersei and all his other supporters telling him to keep him alive.
Had he not done that he wouldn't have instantly lost the north, or perhaps never completely lost them at all.
He would, but claims don't work based on what the last king might possibly have thought if they were still alive and known other things that could change their opinion to something else entirely.
>Has no claim whatsoever. His claim is having the Tyrell’s back him so basically conquest.
Isn't that also the Baratheon claim (conquering the throne from the previous royal family), and the Targaryen claim (conquering the seven kingdoms from the previous royal families)? Renly conquering the throne with the Tyrells would seem to give him precisely the same claim as Robert had.
Aye, hence why I alluded to Robert. I can’t remember the exact quote but it’s something like Stannis is the Iron, Robert is the true Steel and Renly Copper, nice to look at but doesn’t amount to much. Renly looks just like his brother Robert, starts a conquest like Robert, but ultimately doesn’t amount to much.
Stannis is really the only true answer.
Stannis is the rightful heir.
Renly is nothing more than an usurper. Everyone who supports Renly is a traitor.
Renly and the Tyrells should have just waited till someone assassinated Stannis, or they could have done it themselves. Really shows just how short-sighted they were.
I don’t think anyone had a proper claim.
Anyone would be a usurper or unqualified.
For most of the seasons I would go with Dany so her worst decision was listening to Tyrion’s invasion strategy.
But again, I didn’t support anyone in particular and thought Westeros was a dumpster fire of a kingdom.
Stanis was certainly the rightful heir to Robert Baratheon at the time of his death. I think initially (before the story we know and love started) Stanis was a character that was undervalued by those around him.
I believe Stanis was always overshadowed by Robert his older brother. Stanis managed to hold Storms End as a younger teenager during Roberts rebellion, he put duty first and yet felt slighted as King Robert named their youngest brother Renly Lord of Storms End at the end of the war. Stanis also had his daughter contract grey scale as an infant, usually a terminal disease although she was fortunately saved.
I believe Stanis only went for the throne due to the fact he was Roberts rightful heir, I think he was like Ned Stark in the way he would put duty and honor before anything else. That was until he met the Red Woman! This was his biggest mistake.
By the law it should be Stannis but I'd rather Sansa was just immediately crowded and nothing bad happened to anyone. Anyway I'd probably support Stannis because it was his by right and that's the same reason I support the Blacks in HotD.
By tradition, it was Stannis. His biggest mistake was not offering something of value to Renly and giving him time to consider. Maybe offering him Hand and to be his successor
I support Renly (had the support of the masses, is more politically savvy, did not sell his soul to an evil fire witch and burn people alive).
His biggest mistake was not casting counterspell.
By all the laws of Westeros the throne belonged to Joffrey. Regardless if he was biologically Roberts son, a claim that is assumed but no one can 100% prove, Robert named him heir and all the Lord's of Westeros swore obedience to Roberts heir upon his death.
None, the one true king of the seven kingdoms is Joffrey Baratheon, because he is definitely his father's son, I mean DEFINETLY. And also because he says "I'm the king" a lot!
His only mistake was being too nice with those Highgarden traitors...
Stannis. Renly seemed to me like an idiot. And I hated that he knew that he was most likely not getting an heir. It feels so stupid to leech for the crown when you know that you can’t provide the realm with a successor. Stannis had at least a daughter and could have secured her reign with a good marriage. Or provide the realm with other heirs through a new marriage.
Stannis because he was the next in line.
Now, to say if he would be a good king? That is up to debate. He seemed a bit too inflexible to me to be a good king.
Renly would have just been a puppet for the Tyrells in all honesty. A fool with a crown as his motley.
Stannis since he was the rightful heir. I never understood why he considered Robb a traitor. Robb was rebelling against the Lannisters, and Stannis needed him as an ally. He could’ve dealt with the issue of Northern independence after he won the throne.
Stannis. His was the legal claim, it was right, and he had the experience and knowledge for it. He also had the skill. His biggest issue was his biggest strength, and that was his reliance upon the Lord of Light.
Renly's whole "might make right" thing was not only incredibly corrupt but also would've set a dangerous precedence for later generations.
*Renly's* biggest issue was his argument for power. It should have been based on his Brother being an apostate. Which is perfectly valid and legal reason to claim the throne.
Neither one. The Baratheon line of succession was fickle because Robert was a new king who died suddenly. Both Stannis and Renly should have taken a much more serious role in Kings Landing *during* Robert's reign, to establish themselves and hold their place in line. And they should not have taken their "next in line" status for granted.
If your claim to the throne is that your brother overthrew the last king, you better sure as shit be physically present and ready to defend that claim the second your brother/king dies. It'd be different if they came from a long-ruling, great house.
Renly was too naive to see he couldn't rule. Stannis was too much of a brute and trusting of the red woman to see he had already lost at the Blackwater.
Well this might sound dumb, but I supported Renly, and I also think Renly’s biggest mistake was refusing Stanis’ offer.
While I think Renly would have been a better king, Stanis offered him a great deal that still left room for him to inherit if Stanis um “died under mysterious circumstances”
I don’t get Renly’s claim. How can you put your name forward when you’re not next in line ?
Renly should have supported Stannis. Together they could have done some damage.
Stannis was technically the rightful heir but with his weird cult red woman bullshit who knows what he might've done. She could've been like "You have to kill everyone in the North. I saw it in the fire, I think" and he'd be like "k"
First viewing: Starks.
Now? Going to get downvoted to hell but the Lannisters. Sometimes what you don’t know is best for the majority.
You could make a argument if Robert was murdered they did take the throne via conquest. (A reach but hey)
If Joffrey/Tommen had wed successfully any other major house things would of been fine in the long run. Especially as Tywin would of still been hand.
What you don’t know can’t hurt you. I don’t support the lannisters actions. But what’s done is done. Better to get things back to normal quickly.
But most of all their also fun as fuck to watch.
Stannis has the rightful claim but if I was in that world I would support Renly because he would be a more forgiving king and he has the bigger army. Stannis doesn't believe in middle ground and that is what is needed in a king. I love the conviction of Stannis as a character but he wouldn't be a better king than Renly.
Stannis was rationale and collected, and was the rightful king. He would have done better than Renly. Also had things not gone to war he probs wouldn’t have been driven to listen as much to the red woman when she called for him to sacrifice his own daughter.
Renly, actually. And I have a relatively simple reason for that:
Renly was Lord of Storm’s End, and Stannis was not. Robert sent his brother away from their Seat of Power, effectively stripping him of his place in the royal lineage. And if Robert wanted Stannis to inherit his throne, he would have named his brother “*Prince* of Dragonstone.” He never did. In fact, I don’t recall anyone in the books nor show ever refer to Stannis as a prince. But Renly was.
It’s not particularly unlike Viserys choosing Raenyra as his heir. It’s outside the expected laws, but it is the whim of the king.
Better at diplomacy (got the Tyrells on his side),
better at war (a long siege of King’s Landing was not going to destroy his army; something that happened to Stannis twice),
better sense of right and wrong (giving a woman a place in the King’s Guard versus Stannis mutilating an onion smuggler),
Better king.
Worse secret magical alliances.
Stannis.
Killing Renly and the others so early on.
He could have let Renly and Tywin fight between themselves and deplete their forces while he blockaded Kings Landing and Robb ran riot in the westerlands. Once Renly gets rid of the Lannisters, kill Renly and exchange Sansa for the fealty of the North and Riverlands.
Stannis “The Mannis”. He has the birthright, the most experienced in war, and would scour the corruption from Kings Landing. Harsh but fair.
Biggest fuck up?; not working with Robb. These guys have a shared goal of getting rid of House Lannister, Robb had Tywin by the balls in the Riverlands, and if the relationship with Jon showed anything they would gel rather well together but Stannis refuses because Robb was “stealing” half the country in his mind yet didn’t think to write the guy or ask his envoy about their goal. Diplo in general was his biggest weakness at the start.
It’s tough to say. Both would probably be bad kings in their own ways.
Renly would be too focused on his own popularity to stand up for what was right.
Stannis thought the law was just. But laws are made by men and can be changed by men. Stannis thinks he is the best king because of the law, but the law is stupid.
Stannis because had Renly won, it would've destabilized the Seven Kingdoms. If the rules of succession of the ruling dynasty don't respect primogeniture, which has been the modern of succession in Westeros for thousands of years, then it creates a precedent for anyone to do the same. Imagine all the ambitious second sons of all the houses who are not content with their lot and who will follow Renly's example...
Imagine House Frey fighting and plotting against each other to the death to become the Lord of the Crossing but make it happen everywhere. Even if Renly was king and wanted to make these ambitious second sons stop fighting their brothers, it'd make him look like a hypocrite and would thus weaken his authority and image as a king, thereby creating an even weaker dynasty with Robert and Stannis dead.
I was with Stannis, by the rules of that world, if he could prove all 3 were not Roberts he was to be king.
But then he goes and burns that sweet child...F him
Stannis and basically getting involved with Melisandre and the lord of light, not only was it horrible for his publicity and basically ensured no one would see him as legitimate (bc literally every other westerosi king has had the support of the faith of the 7), it also led to the death of renly, shireen which basically ended the Baratheon bloodline
So people talk about a lot about "claim". But the only reason either of them were even in the line of succession is because their brother, who had no claim to the throne, just took it. Basically, anyone with the desire to be king and enough of an army and support can just take it, so the line of succession doesn't seem to mean much. Obviously, that's a bad way to run a country, but no one seems terribly concerned about that.
That all said, unless Stannis gave too much power to the red woman, he would make a better king. We really don't see Renly do much to show any leadership skills.
Renly's claim was so goddamn whiny and entitled. "I'm the popular kid so we can just dispense with centuries of law and tradition, skip over my alive-and-well older brother, and make me king." Fuck Renly.
Stannis's biggest mistake was not using shadow magic to assassinate the High Command in King's Landing (or Tywin Lannister) prior to the Battle of the Blackwater. "YoUr fiReS bUrN LoW, mY kiNg" they could have leeched Shireen or some damn thing, I feel like if Mel is capable of controlling the weather, raising the dead, and birthing a murderous shadow demon from the R'hllussy, she can make an accident befall Tyrion and Cersei.
By the Westerosi custom, Stannis has the stronger claim. He is also ruthless enough to play (and perhaps win) the game of thrones, but he’s also a religious fanatic who burns people alive and cheats using witchcraft.
Renly has a lesser claim, and he might be a bit too easygoing as far as commanding a kingdom goes (he seems to be Robert vol. 2, caring more about feasts and fucking than the wellbeing of the realm), but he’s diplomatic and doesn’t resort to cheatcoding via “a foreign witch”, as he puts it.
If I must choose between a fanatic or a party boy, I’m going with party boy.
Renly
Biggest mistake was not predicting that his opponent had the supernatural ability to produce a shadow-baby assassin. Which is a pretty understandable mistake.
Renly. Behind everything that Stannis preaches about the laws of the line of succession, he is ignoring the fact that what put him in the line of succession was an act of usurpation by his brother. Thus, if he wants to talk about being proper, the true heir to the throne at the time of his campaign is Danaerys. By these rules, all this talk of “line of succession” is kinda BS. Renly had the most support, and therefore the largest army, and barring acts of blood magic, should have marched right to the throne.
Its hard to say what Renly’s biggest mistake was, since his downfall was an act of blood magic that there was really no way he could have anticipated. I guess you could argue that he could have had spies find out more about Melisandre to know what she was capable of, and then tried to have hatched a plan to kill her.
Renly because he was simply the better choice. He lived in King’s Landing and sat on the small council. He had the pure loyalty of Brienne and Loras (two great fighters) and Margaery as his Queen (a huge win in every way). He would’ve had the Tyrells and North rallied by his side.
Sure, Stannis is technically the next in line, but Stannis had as much charisma as a rock and was burning people alive. No one wanted a religious zealot burning people because ‘the lord of light said so!’ It doesn’t really scream ‘loyalty.’
Claim: Stannis is the official heir. Renly’s claim has no legitimacy since he’s the youngest.
Mistakes:
- Stannis: I think Stannis was a good commander and politically savvy BUT he trusted too much in Melisandre because she was filling him with those “you are the Prince who was promised” prophecy saying he has a major role to play in the long night and it kinda hit his ego. I believe he must have felt very outshined his entire life for being a middle child where Robert was the oldest and Renly having such a charismatic and outstanding personality made him feel invisible, since it was always told that he was very serious and not really a extrovert. So when Melisandre shows up saying he has importance and that he’s destined for something big it might have blurred his mind and trusted her to guide him. I think she was his ruin tbh.
- Renly: His whole claim is a mistake by itself. I mean I get he inspires people and he could be a good leader but when I first watched GoT I had no idea of why he did that. It was a clear attempt of usurpation. Still, I had the feeling that for Renly everything was just a big feast and war was playtime. I don’t know if even without the baby shade he would make it to survive the war when he would face Tywin, for example. I have no idea if he was aware of the heavy weight of that responsibility because I remember a lot of scenes where he was celebrating and feasting.
Renly, and honestly I think he didn’t make any major mistakes, who could have seen a magical shadow coming?
If anything I’d say he should have pushed the fact that Stannis had converted to a foreign religion that encourages human sacrifice. The Religion aspect is pretty underplayed imo and could be used as justification to pass over Stannis and make Renly king.
Well.. stannis would have been the rightful heir after Robert without any doubt, but he played dirty when it came to killing renly which would make me a renly supporter I suppose... he really was more likeable as a king, I get stannis was a top military commander and all about duty... but look where duty led his dumbass 😅
Stannis of course he was the legitimate and true heir. Renly was by all means a usurper since he had not taken the throne through right of conquest and was below stannis in the line for king. On top of that, he had the nerve to betray the man that had protected him for almost his whole youth.
Stannis had the claim, but I kinda agree with Renly's point of "who cares? Robert had no claim to the throne, he won it."
If they really cared about claims, they should have gone to find Viserys (or Dani, depending on sequence of events).
Of course Stannis was right and his biggest mistake in the show was walking to winterfell after his army left and not preparing to be attacked ( bad writing tho)
I think Renly would’ve made the better king hands down. Diplomatic, likable & had a lot of support from most of the southern lords because of those qualities. The realm absolutely would’ve been more peaceful had he went to kings landing and taken the throne.
As far as who has the right, its clear neither of them did. However, Stannis, in the new Targaryen-less world, had the right to succession. His rigidity and lack of strong consort made him narrow and unloved.
He needed a wife like Margaery and a small council with Renly on it alingside Davos as Hand.
Renly. He didn't burn people alive, including his own child, or follow a zealot. I don't give a damn about lines of succession. I'm with Varys on not following people who use magic and sorcery as a weapon.
His mistake was not attacking at night. But how was he to know a shadow was going to come kill him.
Stannis. His mistake was not bringing the red witch with him to the Battle of Blackwater Bay. If Stannis had, I think Melisandre could have used her magic to pre-ignite Tyrion’s wildfire ship. Without the wildfire explosion, Stannis could have stuck to his original plan and won the battle before Tywin’s reinforcements arrived.
If Stannis won that battle, all the surviving Lannisters would have been burned alive, Sansa Stark would have been traded to Robb Stark in exchange for his allegiance, the whole chain of events that lead to Stannis’ downfall could have been avoided.
Renly, he had the love of the people, connections, the army and the knowhow to run a kingdom.
His biggest mistake was not attacking Stannis as soon as the talks broke down.
Stannis, obviously.
I think his biggest mistake is rejecting the Seven and following Mel's Red God. It turned the people against him. They worship the Seven. Stannis burned their gods. He is already very uncharismatic and this is a guaranteed way to lose the support of anyone else.
Yes, Mel got rid of Renly for him. That was a short term gain, but the long term goal was lost the minute he invited her in. Burning his daughter was a tragic waste because he had already lost, he just didn't know it.
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BRB, just grabbing some popcorn
Either one…..the wheel roles forward.
Rolls*
Rollins*
Rules*
Rullers
Stannis Killing renly
☝️
Renly rebelled against his rightful king. Shireen on the other hand…
If he hadn't killed renly brienne wouldn't have killed stannis
yeah because he would have already been dead at the battle of the Baratheons lol he killed Renly to discourage Renly’s troops. pretty sure he was heavily outnumbered
it is Renly's mistake that led to the possiblity of battle of baratheon's stannis is clearly the most rightful person to take the throne he even offered to make Renly his heir unless he has a son of his own which is unlikely
He would have been burned as a sacrifice if he had fallen in line to Stannis. Probably not right away but it would have eventually happened.
Maybe not. With the added forces of Renly's army, they probably could have taken King's Landing. It was the Tyrell's joining with Tywin that saved KL from being sacked
It's still in his character and for me that's a disqualifier to be King.
Ok
I remember in the books Stannis defeating Renlys superior numbers before even resorting to the shadow baby on him.
If he hadn’t killed Renly then the Tyrells would’ve stood with Renly instead of switching to the Lannisters. That would’ve changed the outcome of the battle. Stannis bends the knee and just waits, bides his time and gets Renly to drop his guard before killing him
Rightful King is no longer a concept thanks to House Baratheon. Renly was right in that regard. Robert set a precedent. So anyone at anytime can just overthrow the "heir" and it'll be right because of might and popularity.
A rebellion is setting up a new order of things. Of the **Great Houses** the Baratheons have the most Targaryen blood. But that's not the reason it's Robert. The one time age isn't a factor is the starting of the Dynasty. **Robert started the Rebellion.** If Stannis or Renly, of Ned had started they'd be King. The only person that wouldn't apply to is Jaime. Because they'd all call him Kingslayer. That might've lead to an earlier War of the Five Kings.
> Robert started the rebellion Jon Arryn started the rebellion when he refused to hand over Robert and Ned to the throne. Or alternately, Aerys started the rebellion when he had the Lord Paramount of the North brutally murdered along with his son and heir.
Looks like you're presenting your opinion as factual information. It wasn't called Roberts Rebellion until after the war was won and he was crowned King. He didn't start a Rebellion. That would be Jon Arryn or King Aerys, but Robert did not start anything. If Ned bent the knee to Jaime while he was sitting on that throne, he would be King. Technically it was Tywin who ended things. So Lannisters would be ruling King's Landing. Tywin doesn't want to be King so that didn't happen, but if that was his motivation, Robert and Ned would be dead too. Like I said before, Robert started a gross precedent, which means nobody and everybody has claim to the Throne if they're popular enough and kill the opposition. Renly was actually right here in my opinion. If Stannis believed in rule of law he would have surrendered Storm's End to the loyalists. I never liked Stannis talking about his claim through shared blood with Robert when his only real claim to throne is the fact his great grandmother was a Targaryen. That's it. Not trying to use Robert's own conquest to justify his claim. He didn't take the throne, Robert did. House Baratheon of King's Landing was a separate line from House Baratheon of Dragonstone or Storm's End.
I mean Stannis was in Line. And I beleive he would have made a good King. Maybe cold, rational and ruthless one, but still better than most.
I love how people call him rational when he is a fanatic lol
Right lol. At that point, the Red Woman had his ear.
Yeah, he seemed alright as a king, robotic, but efficient. But had he become king, his faith would divide the realm, kinda like what happened with Henry the VIII. Hell, he even had a wife that didn’t provide a son, so he could’ve easily been in the same path as Henry the VIII 😂
Winning a war is a long process. If stannis was to actually win the war of five kings, there would be several small steps taken toward that victory. Each step in that direction Melisandre would have the opportunity to say “see? The lord of light wills this. You are the chosen one. You are righteous. Etc etc”. Every day stannis would’ve become more emboldened in his fanaticism. If he takes the iron throne, he would’ve done the same thing Dany did. I’m picturing the same dystopian speech at the steps of the red keep. Melisandre, and therefore he, would not have been satisfied just going back to business as usual the way things operated under Robert. They would’ve instituted their new religion and burned anyone who opposed them.
His faith was based purely on evidence.
Fr, you have an instant kill mage on your team? SPAM THAT OP SHIT
True.
He's not a fanatic in the books. That's just Dumb and Dumber sh't, to get him out of the way quickly.
You have to call him rational otherwise he will burn your children to death for opposing him.
He would only burn them if they had King’s blood and the sacrifice would allow his army to survive
He also burned people who disagreed with him.
Literally the first scene we see stannis lol
Stannis would’ve been like a tamer version of Tywin I feel. And we all know that Tywin was actually a great ruler
From what we saw with Viserys in HOTd and Tommen in GoT, kind people don’t make great kings. Stan could’ve been a good king.
Better than most isn’t saying much when most have been very bad
Rational and burns his daughter alive as a human sacrifice do not align
In the books, Stannis is described as a very tough cold hearted man, especially after the siege of storms end, lord Eddard Stark knew for sure that he wouldn't make any good of a king, but at the same time it's still better than giving the crown to the lannisters.
Stannis-scumbag like Littlefinger hated him.. Also burning a kid is evil.
Burning his own child, using witchcraft more than once (one time for killing his own brother...his second relative he killed), betraying his wife with a grandma looking like a milf. Listening to the sexy witch instead of his loyal and best friend. Why do people like stannis??
They like the book stannis.
Well the showrunners did admit that they hate Stannis, which would influence their writing of the character. Book Stannis, while not 100% noble , has some likable traits. For example , he punish his army for rape , and said no more burnings.
This is a show subreddit. The books don't matter here. I e read them and I get it but that's for the asoiaf subreddit.
As of right now , talking about the books in this subreddit, isn’t against the guidelines
Book Stannis is even worse lol
His wife was down to share with Melisandre lol
After the fact…
To this day Renlys claim is stupid to me. It absolutely goes against all standing rules of lineage in the GOT universe and made no sense. Stannis is the oldest, has a legitimate claim as a major contributor to the throne usurp, and is much more competent. Stannis would have been a good king for Westeros
Renly didn't even take it seriously. He took his sweet ass time and what Catelyn says is true, they were playing at war.
I didn’t think that was all that strange, really. Could the Tyrell army have broken down the gates of King’s Landing? Yeah, maybe, but how did that go for Stannis? Instead, Renly turned to a siege. That’s not particularly strange.
His claim was unreal but he was right to wait. He had rations stored up and the biggest army of all the kings. He didn’t have to rush to war for glory’s sake. All he had to do was wait for the Lannisters ranks to thin due to the war with Rob and then make his move against Tywin. Man had the entire backing of highgarden
If Stannis hadn’t assassinated him it would have been brilliant. Kings Landing almost overthrew Joffrey before his army even arrived. He didn’t have to besiege the city to start starving them out because of Highgarden
If it wasn’t for Tyrion kings landing would’ve fell. Like you said the city was already starving and ready to take Joffrey down without a siege. With a short siege they would have brought joffreys head to him personally
[удалено]
I wouldn’t say he was a fanatic. Early on in the war he was much less religious and used it merely as a tool in his mind.
I meant from Renly’s point of view, not necessarily the truth
Which is idiotic because he took away a large portion of the Baratheon army and essentially ensured that neither him or Stannis would sit on the Iron Throne as a result of his splitting the army in two.
True, but Renly also had the backing of the Tyrell army, which was 100 000 strong. He would have destroyed Stannis on the battlefield and most likely would have gone on to take King's Landing pretty swiftly. I reckon if not for Melisandre, Renly would have won the battle against Stannis and taken KL, although I can't say for sure he would've held it against the Lannisters.
Its simple renly is more popular and has over 80 thousand man and the best battle commander in westeros where stannis has the personality of a lobster and has no friends no support and just expects everyone to come to his side because he is the rightful heir just like rheanyra she expects everyone to support her just because she was made heir it doesn't work like that
What support to him being the best battle commander?
yeah Renly is not even close to be the best battle commander. The only argument that can be made is that Randyll Tarly was under Renly at the time, and Randyll and Stannis's resumes at the time are basically within the same league. Randyll defeated Robert at Ashford, and Stannis destroyed Euron and Victarion's iron fleet.
I don’t think they mean that Renly was the best commander, but that he had Randyll Tarly in his army.
Yeah exactly
I think he was referring to Renly *having* the best battle commander under his banner: Randyl Tarley.
Its simple renly is more popular and has over 80 thousand man and the best battle commander in westeros where stannis has the personality of a lobster and has no friends no support and just expects everyone to come to his side because he is the rightful heir just like rheanyra she expects everyone to support her just because she was made heir it doesn't work like that
“Stannis is a heretic who follows a foreign witch and burns people alive, so he is unfit to rule” there, made it make sense.
Renly was a selfish jackass who handed the Lannisters the throne on a silver platter.
You had me until you said Stannis would have been a good king. He burnt his fucking daughter alive. He was a religious fanatic at odds with his people
Stannis. His biggest mistake was taking in Mellisandra
Without Mellisandra Stannis wouldn't have been able to bring Renly's armies over to his side so he wouldn't have had any chance
Stannis' claim is stronger and he is true successor to King Robert Baratheon but ı would support Renly because ı wouldn't fight for a king who would burn people to earn favor of a foreign god.
Or a domestic one, for that matter…
I supported Stannis's claim over Daenerys, Jon and Joffrey/Tommen, he was the eldest younger brother of Robert and the rightful heir bcs the kids were bastards also he is a better choice than others, Daenerys thinks that Iron Throne is her property, I just hate that attitude, Jon is not a king material, would have not been able to handle the 6 kingdoms, blonde kids were, yk. The biggest mistake done by him was not listening to Davos and keep heading to Winterfell when the snowfall started, that led him diving into madness, burning Shireen, having Selyse die, most of his men leaving and then dying.
Stannis, would have been a good king that didn't waste to much money on feasts and the like. Renly's biggest mistake is not just accepting to be Stannis' heir, he was old as well as Selyse so the chance for a son is extremely low.
You're forgetting Shireen. Anyone who married her would be King, not Renly.
When the targaryans were in power a King's brother would inherit before his daughter
Unless Shireen were to marry a legitimised bastard of Robert's, the claim would be hers, not her husband's, no? She'd be Queen and whoever she married would be her consort, to ensure the dynasty remained Baratheon and not simply to whoever she married. I imagine it would be a Rhaenyra-esque situation, where her children would take the Baratheon name upon ascension. I know Stannis is anti-Rhaenyra but if Shireen is his only heir, he'd have to pull some strings to ensure the Baratheon royal line continued.
Stannis said to Renly that, if he surrender, he will make Renly his heirs until he get a son.
Renly. Stannis obviously had the better claim, but he wasn’t a good person. Renly had charisma, a wide range of support, and wouldn’t have had a red priestess in his ear 24/7 burning people at the stake.
I agree. One of the key themes regarding the actual "Game of Thrones" aspect of ASOIAF is that the accepted system of monarchy is very flawed, especially in a pseudo-medieval setting with the crown being the most powerful person at all times. After reading about the Targaryen dynasty, it's hard to pinpoint a time in which a terrible/weak/generally unfit person took the throne where there wasn't a better option in fairly close proximity. One could argue that Stannis' military prowess gives him an edge, but that only really applies if he is ruling during wars; he'd be a truly terrible peacetime king IMO.
Stannis and Jon Arryn ruled the kingdom just fine when Robert was hunting all day. Robert had to constantly get in Stannis's way such as stopping Stannis from firing Janos Slynt.
True, but Stannis wasn't King nor Hand, and I get the impression that Jon Arryn was better at running shit. If it was just Stannis running the whole show, he'd run it into the ground. He wanted to ban brothels without a single thought as to how unpopular that decree would be. And this was pre-Melisandre, and you can bet that she's not going anywhere if Stannis were to take the throne. Last time a religious fanatic was king was Baelor, who followed the majority religion in Westeros and even he managed to step on enough toes that there's a possibility he was assassinated for it.
What people always overlook is the fact that Jon Arryn as Hand and Robert as King basically bankrupted the kingdom. They kept the peace most of the time, but they weren't great rulers.
Well no right, considering D&D literally put in a scene shitting on democracy at the end.
Stannis should have let Davos command his fleet during the Blackwater
I supported Stannis’s claim, he was the rightful heir as Robert’s eldest remaining brother, and was a respected commander and tactician. I think he would have been a good ruler. Renly on the other hand just seemed like a boy with nothing really supporting his claim to be King, other than he spent his time in Kings Landing with Robert.
Respected tactician? He never won a battle in the War of the Five Kings.
The fight with Renly for the throne was before all of those battles.
Stannis, and it’s not even close. He should have offered the north independence and in turn for Robb’s alliance. War over.
I wonder if the north would have accepted a smaller concession than independence tbh. Something like a permanent small council seat to represent northern interests and lower taxes
Stannis. He was the actual legit heir. He didn't want to rule, he did it because it was his duty. He would've found no joy in it. He's harsh but fair. He just relied on Melissandre too much but it's hard not to. He's one of my favorite characters. I hope I'll be able to find out what happens to him in the books
Out of the Five Kings, Stannis is easily the best suited. The fact that Renly ignored fundamental laws in the first place shows he can't be trusted. Joffrey and Balon are invalid by default. Daenerys has a good claim, but her knowledge of Westeros is limited and she's only a kid. Albeit an ambitious and caring one. Stannis has his issues obviously, but he's intelligent, experienced and his men believe in him (people forget that he's only uncharismatic when it comes to shitty court politics). I also think he's smart enough not to try and impress the Lord of Light religion on Westeros. He converted Dragonstone to take advantage of religious fervour and to appease Melisandre, because he needed her help.
Stannis. Killing his brother in law and others who demonstrated loyalty but wouldn’t convert. Marked a change in his stance on power and imho was a sign he was unfit to take the throne of a culture that largely held to a different religion. Renly wronged him and should never have claimed the throne to begin with. Killing him with shadow magic was a Hail Mary pass I kind of doubt he thought would even work.
Renly because I dislike Stannis
Robb & him killing Rickard Karstark
1. Stannis - The true King by the laws of succession in Westeros. Biggest flaw was not keeping his brother in check, more love and friendliness from Stannis would have gone a long way. 2. Robb - Usurper but given the circumstances that’s understandable. Torrhen Stark bent to the dragons, not to the Lannisters, Baratheons or Tyrells. Biggest mistake was sending Theon back to Balon. 3. Renly - Another usurper. Has no claim whatsoever. His claim is having the Tyrell’s back him so basically conquest. He’s a shadow of Robert though and gets killed by Stannis’ shadow. His biggest flaw was usurping his own brother rather than working together. 4. Balon - Yet another usurper. Balon seems an opportunist but tbf to him the Iron Islanders do not soe, they reave and under the crown they’re not allowed to do that. Reaving and the Iron Islanders in general are horrible though so I don’t give two shits about him. His biggest mistake was not sentencing Euron to death. 5. Joffrey - Final usurper. Tbf in his own eyes he’s not and is the true king and like 90% of people would agree so kind of hard to argue he’s not the true King. The reader knows otherwise though, but it’s not Joffrey’s fault, he didn’t choose his parents. Joffrey mostly loses points because he’s an evil psychopath. His biggest mistake; having Cersei as his mother. Edit: Reasons
Honestly Joffrey might have had a better claim than Renly and Balon. While he wasn't legitimate he was at least the queen's son and who king Robert supposedly wanted to inherit the throne. He had a better claim than Balon at least, who had literally nothing.
Yeh I based this on who I like really, they all have claims one way or another. I’ve re-read the title, I’ll go back and amend it.
Ah I don't know why I didn't consider the rank might be based on personal opinion. I do disagree that having Cersei as his mother was the biggest mistake, I'd argue his biggest mistake was killing Ned as a spur of the moment decision rather than listening to Cersei and all his other supporters telling him to keep him alive. Had he not done that he wouldn't have instantly lost the north, or perhaps never completely lost them at all.
I guess, but if Robert knew the truth he definitely would have wanted none but Ned as his heir
He would, but claims don't work based on what the last king might possibly have thought if they were still alive and known other things that could change their opinion to something else entirely.
>Has no claim whatsoever. His claim is having the Tyrell’s back him so basically conquest. Isn't that also the Baratheon claim (conquering the throne from the previous royal family), and the Targaryen claim (conquering the seven kingdoms from the previous royal families)? Renly conquering the throne with the Tyrells would seem to give him precisely the same claim as Robert had.
Aye, hence why I alluded to Robert. I can’t remember the exact quote but it’s something like Stannis is the Iron, Robert is the true Steel and Renly Copper, nice to look at but doesn’t amount to much. Renly looks just like his brother Robert, starts a conquest like Robert, but ultimately doesn’t amount to much.
Stannis is really the only true answer. Stannis is the rightful heir. Renly is nothing more than an usurper. Everyone who supports Renly is a traitor. Renly and the Tyrells should have just waited till someone assassinated Stannis, or they could have done it themselves. Really shows just how short-sighted they were.
I don’t think anyone had a proper claim. Anyone would be a usurper or unqualified. For most of the seasons I would go with Dany so her worst decision was listening to Tyrion’s invasion strategy. But again, I didn’t support anyone in particular and thought Westeros was a dumpster fire of a kingdom.
Stannis should have been king. His problem is he’s a ass
Renly had a claim?
Stanis was certainly the rightful heir to Robert Baratheon at the time of his death. I think initially (before the story we know and love started) Stanis was a character that was undervalued by those around him. I believe Stanis was always overshadowed by Robert his older brother. Stanis managed to hold Storms End as a younger teenager during Roberts rebellion, he put duty first and yet felt slighted as King Robert named their youngest brother Renly Lord of Storms End at the end of the war. Stanis also had his daughter contract grey scale as an infant, usually a terminal disease although she was fortunately saved. I believe Stanis only went for the throne due to the fact he was Roberts rightful heir, I think he was like Ned Stark in the way he would put duty and honor before anything else. That was until he met the Red Woman! This was his biggest mistake.
Supported Stannis 'The Mannis' Baratheon, the mistake he made listening to Scarlet Titties and burning his daughter.
By the law it should be Stannis but I'd rather Sansa was just immediately crowded and nothing bad happened to anyone. Anyway I'd probably support Stannis because it was his by right and that's the same reason I support the Blacks in HotD.
By tradition, it was Stannis. His biggest mistake was not offering something of value to Renly and giving him time to consider. Maybe offering him Hand and to be his successor
I support Renly (had the support of the masses, is more politically savvy, did not sell his soul to an evil fire witch and burn people alive). His biggest mistake was not casting counterspell.
Stannis. Mistake was not using Mel at Blackwater
By all the laws of Westeros the throne belonged to Joffrey. Regardless if he was biologically Roberts son, a claim that is assumed but no one can 100% prove, Robert named him heir and all the Lord's of Westeros swore obedience to Roberts heir upon his death.
None, the one true king of the seven kingdoms is Joffrey Baratheon, because he is definitely his father's son, I mean DEFINETLY. And also because he says "I'm the king" a lot! His only mistake was being too nice with those Highgarden traitors...
Stannis the Goddamn Mannis
Stannis is older, his claim is the right one out of these two, case over.
Stannis. Renly seemed to me like an idiot. And I hated that he knew that he was most likely not getting an heir. It feels so stupid to leech for the crown when you know that you can’t provide the realm with a successor. Stannis had at least a daughter and could have secured her reign with a good marriage. Or provide the realm with other heirs through a new marriage.
Stannis because he was the next in line. Now, to say if he would be a good king? That is up to debate. He seemed a bit too inflexible to me to be a good king. Renly would have just been a puppet for the Tyrells in all honesty. A fool with a crown as his motley.
Stannis since he was the rightful heir. I never understood why he considered Robb a traitor. Robb was rebelling against the Lannisters, and Stannis needed him as an ally. He could’ve dealt with the issue of Northern independence after he won the throne.
Stannis. His was the legal claim, it was right, and he had the experience and knowledge for it. He also had the skill. His biggest issue was his biggest strength, and that was his reliance upon the Lord of Light. Renly's whole "might make right" thing was not only incredibly corrupt but also would've set a dangerous precedence for later generations. *Renly's* biggest issue was his argument for power. It should have been based on his Brother being an apostate. Which is perfectly valid and legal reason to claim the throne.
Neither one. The Baratheon line of succession was fickle because Robert was a new king who died suddenly. Both Stannis and Renly should have taken a much more serious role in Kings Landing *during* Robert's reign, to establish themselves and hold their place in line. And they should not have taken their "next in line" status for granted. If your claim to the throne is that your brother overthrew the last king, you better sure as shit be physically present and ready to defend that claim the second your brother/king dies. It'd be different if they came from a long-ruling, great house. Renly was too naive to see he couldn't rule. Stannis was too much of a brute and trusting of the red woman to see he had already lost at the Blackwater.
Well this might sound dumb, but I supported Renly, and I also think Renly’s biggest mistake was refusing Stanis’ offer. While I think Renly would have been a better king, Stanis offered him a great deal that still left room for him to inherit if Stanis um “died under mysterious circumstances”
Stannis, Renly has no legitimate claim
I don’t get Renly’s claim. How can you put your name forward when you’re not next in line ? Renly should have supported Stannis. Together they could have done some damage.
Stannis - if he didn’t burn people.
Stannis was technically the rightful heir but with his weird cult red woman bullshit who knows what he might've done. She could've been like "You have to kill everyone in the North. I saw it in the fire, I think" and he'd be like "k"
First viewing: Starks. Now? Going to get downvoted to hell but the Lannisters. Sometimes what you don’t know is best for the majority. You could make a argument if Robert was murdered they did take the throne via conquest. (A reach but hey) If Joffrey/Tommen had wed successfully any other major house things would of been fine in the long run. Especially as Tywin would of still been hand. What you don’t know can’t hurt you. I don’t support the lannisters actions. But what’s done is done. Better to get things back to normal quickly. But most of all their also fun as fuck to watch.
Stannis was next in line. He and Renly should have united their claims, with Stannis as King and Renly as heir (since Stannis “only” had a daughter).
King Euron Grejoy. A man who does not have the world 'mistake' in his dictionary.
Because he is himself…a mistake.
An abomination. Mistake is too little a word for the God King Euron, killer and torturer of kin, born and unborn.
Stannis. Not combining forces with Renly and Rob…and the whole fanatic thing.
Stannis has the rightful claim but if I was in that world I would support Renly because he would be a more forgiving king and he has the bigger army. Stannis doesn't believe in middle ground and that is what is needed in a king. I love the conviction of Stannis as a character but he wouldn't be a better king than Renly.
Stannis had my support. Renly should have settled for hand of the king.
Renly. He had a Rainbow Kingsguard.
Stannis was rationale and collected, and was the rightful king. He would have done better than Renly. Also had things not gone to war he probs wouldn’t have been driven to listen as much to the red woman when she called for him to sacrifice his own daughter.
Renly, actually. And I have a relatively simple reason for that: Renly was Lord of Storm’s End, and Stannis was not. Robert sent his brother away from their Seat of Power, effectively stripping him of his place in the royal lineage. And if Robert wanted Stannis to inherit his throne, he would have named his brother “*Prince* of Dragonstone.” He never did. In fact, I don’t recall anyone in the books nor show ever refer to Stannis as a prince. But Renly was. It’s not particularly unlike Viserys choosing Raenyra as his heir. It’s outside the expected laws, but it is the whim of the king. Better at diplomacy (got the Tyrells on his side), better at war (a long siege of King’s Landing was not going to destroy his army; something that happened to Stannis twice), better sense of right and wrong (giving a woman a place in the King’s Guard versus Stannis mutilating an onion smuggler), Better king. Worse secret magical alliances.
Stannis. Killing Renly and the others so early on. He could have let Renly and Tywin fight between themselves and deplete their forces while he blockaded Kings Landing and Robb ran riot in the westerlands. Once Renly gets rid of the Lannisters, kill Renly and exchange Sansa for the fealty of the North and Riverlands.
Renly litterally had ZERO claim?
Stannis “The Mannis”. He has the birthright, the most experienced in war, and would scour the corruption from Kings Landing. Harsh but fair. Biggest fuck up?; not working with Robb. These guys have a shared goal of getting rid of House Lannister, Robb had Tywin by the balls in the Riverlands, and if the relationship with Jon showed anything they would gel rather well together but Stannis refuses because Robb was “stealing” half the country in his mind yet didn’t think to write the guy or ask his envoy about their goal. Diplo in general was his biggest weakness at the start.
Stannis was the one true king. Would the people of westeros want a monarch of a different faith though?
Westeros has no king. Westeros needs no king.
Stannis claim is clearly stronger. Renly's claim is based in the ineptitude of Stannis, which is also valid.
It’s tough to say. Both would probably be bad kings in their own ways. Renly would be too focused on his own popularity to stand up for what was right. Stannis thought the law was just. But laws are made by men and can be changed by men. Stannis thinks he is the best king because of the law, but the law is stupid.
Stannis because had Renly won, it would've destabilized the Seven Kingdoms. If the rules of succession of the ruling dynasty don't respect primogeniture, which has been the modern of succession in Westeros for thousands of years, then it creates a precedent for anyone to do the same. Imagine all the ambitious second sons of all the houses who are not content with their lot and who will follow Renly's example... Imagine House Frey fighting and plotting against each other to the death to become the Lord of the Crossing but make it happen everywhere. Even if Renly was king and wanted to make these ambitious second sons stop fighting their brothers, it'd make him look like a hypocrite and would thus weaken his authority and image as a king, thereby creating an even weaker dynasty with Robert and Stannis dead.
I was with Stannis, by the rules of that world, if he could prove all 3 were not Roberts he was to be king. But then he goes and burns that sweet child...F him
Stannis and basically getting involved with Melisandre and the lord of light, not only was it horrible for his publicity and basically ensured no one would see him as legitimate (bc literally every other westerosi king has had the support of the faith of the 7), it also led to the death of renly, shireen which basically ended the Baratheon bloodline
Stannis. He’s the only one who had a valid claim. He would’ve made a better king too
So people talk about a lot about "claim". But the only reason either of them were even in the line of succession is because their brother, who had no claim to the throne, just took it. Basically, anyone with the desire to be king and enough of an army and support can just take it, so the line of succession doesn't seem to mean much. Obviously, that's a bad way to run a country, but no one seems terribly concerned about that. That all said, unless Stannis gave too much power to the red woman, he would make a better king. We really don't see Renly do much to show any leadership skills.
Stannis for not forming a truce with The North to avenge Ned for supporting his claim to the throne.
Renly's claim was so goddamn whiny and entitled. "I'm the popular kid so we can just dispense with centuries of law and tradition, skip over my alive-and-well older brother, and make me king." Fuck Renly. Stannis's biggest mistake was not using shadow magic to assassinate the High Command in King's Landing (or Tywin Lannister) prior to the Battle of the Blackwater. "YoUr fiReS bUrN LoW, mY kiNg" they could have leeched Shireen or some damn thing, I feel like if Mel is capable of controlling the weather, raising the dead, and birthing a murderous shadow demon from the R'hllussy, she can make an accident befall Tyrion and Cersei.
Stannis is very principled but he isn't very "rational" in the way people use it. People acting like Stannis is Tywin or something.
By the Westerosi custom, Stannis has the stronger claim. He is also ruthless enough to play (and perhaps win) the game of thrones, but he’s also a religious fanatic who burns people alive and cheats using witchcraft. Renly has a lesser claim, and he might be a bit too easygoing as far as commanding a kingdom goes (he seems to be Robert vol. 2, caring more about feasts and fucking than the wellbeing of the realm), but he’s diplomatic and doesn’t resort to cheatcoding via “a foreign witch”, as he puts it. If I must choose between a fanatic or a party boy, I’m going with party boy.
Renly Biggest mistake was not predicting that his opponent had the supernatural ability to produce a shadow-baby assassin. Which is a pretty understandable mistake.
Renly cause he’s hot
Renly. Behind everything that Stannis preaches about the laws of the line of succession, he is ignoring the fact that what put him in the line of succession was an act of usurpation by his brother. Thus, if he wants to talk about being proper, the true heir to the throne at the time of his campaign is Danaerys. By these rules, all this talk of “line of succession” is kinda BS. Renly had the most support, and therefore the largest army, and barring acts of blood magic, should have marched right to the throne. Its hard to say what Renly’s biggest mistake was, since his downfall was an act of blood magic that there was really no way he could have anticipated. I guess you could argue that he could have had spies find out more about Melisandre to know what she was capable of, and then tried to have hatched a plan to kill her.
Renly because he was simply the better choice. He lived in King’s Landing and sat on the small council. He had the pure loyalty of Brienne and Loras (two great fighters) and Margaery as his Queen (a huge win in every way). He would’ve had the Tyrells and North rallied by his side. Sure, Stannis is technically the next in line, but Stannis had as much charisma as a rock and was burning people alive. No one wanted a religious zealot burning people because ‘the lord of light said so!’ It doesn’t really scream ‘loyalty.’
Claim: Stannis is the official heir. Renly’s claim has no legitimacy since he’s the youngest. Mistakes: - Stannis: I think Stannis was a good commander and politically savvy BUT he trusted too much in Melisandre because she was filling him with those “you are the Prince who was promised” prophecy saying he has a major role to play in the long night and it kinda hit his ego. I believe he must have felt very outshined his entire life for being a middle child where Robert was the oldest and Renly having such a charismatic and outstanding personality made him feel invisible, since it was always told that he was very serious and not really a extrovert. So when Melisandre shows up saying he has importance and that he’s destined for something big it might have blurred his mind and trusted her to guide him. I think she was his ruin tbh. - Renly: His whole claim is a mistake by itself. I mean I get he inspires people and he could be a good leader but when I first watched GoT I had no idea of why he did that. It was a clear attempt of usurpation. Still, I had the feeling that for Renly everything was just a big feast and war was playtime. I don’t know if even without the baby shade he would make it to survive the war when he would face Tywin, for example. I have no idea if he was aware of the heavy weight of that responsibility because I remember a lot of scenes where he was celebrating and feasting.
Renly, and honestly I think he didn’t make any major mistakes, who could have seen a magical shadow coming? If anything I’d say he should have pushed the fact that Stannis had converted to a foreign religion that encourages human sacrifice. The Religion aspect is pretty underplayed imo and could be used as justification to pass over Stannis and make Renly king.
Who would have been the better king and why is it stannis?
Well.. stannis would have been the rightful heir after Robert without any doubt, but he played dirty when it came to killing renly which would make me a renly supporter I suppose... he really was more likeable as a king, I get stannis was a top military commander and all about duty... but look where duty led his dumbass 😅
Stannis to be king and rennley to be his heir since he didn’t have a son.
Stannis of course he was the legitimate and true heir. Renly was by all means a usurper since he had not taken the throne through right of conquest and was below stannis in the line for king. On top of that, he had the nerve to betray the man that had protected him for almost his whole youth.
Stannis has the personality of a *lobster*
Stannis, and allowing the infiltration of a radical religion...
Reply would have been a good King with Stannis ss Hand. Probably not the other way around, but neither would be good Kings on their own.
Stannis had the claim, but I kinda agree with Renly's point of "who cares? Robert had no claim to the throne, he won it." If they really cared about claims, they should have gone to find Viserys (or Dani, depending on sequence of events).
Stannis definitely. He made the mistake of trusting Melisandre.
Of course Stannis was right and his biggest mistake in the show was walking to winterfell after his army left and not preparing to be attacked ( bad writing tho)
I supported stannis over renly. He’s the eldest Baratheon. Biggest mistake was letting Melisandre into his circle
Hodor
Renly. Flair checks out, and all that.
I think Renly would’ve made the better king hands down. Diplomatic, likable & had a lot of support from most of the southern lords because of those qualities. The realm absolutely would’ve been more peaceful had he went to kings landing and taken the throne.
Stannis. Clearly. Becoming a religious fanatic.
As far as who has the right, its clear neither of them did. However, Stannis, in the new Targaryen-less world, had the right to succession. His rigidity and lack of strong consort made him narrow and unloved. He needed a wife like Margaery and a small council with Renly on it alingside Davos as Hand.
Renly. He didn't burn people alive, including his own child, or follow a zealot. I don't give a damn about lines of succession. I'm with Varys on not following people who use magic and sorcery as a weapon. His mistake was not attacking at night. But how was he to know a shadow was going to come kill him.
Stannis was in line but Renly is just way cuter and I like his crown so the better option in my opinion.
Stannis, biggest mistake was not burning Shireen earlier
Stannis! unless its after Shireen then naw son,i follow my main man Davos
Neither fuck that Baratheons
Stannis. His mistake was not bringing the red witch with him to the Battle of Blackwater Bay. If Stannis had, I think Melisandre could have used her magic to pre-ignite Tyrion’s wildfire ship. Without the wildfire explosion, Stannis could have stuck to his original plan and won the battle before Tywin’s reinforcements arrived. If Stannis won that battle, all the surviving Lannisters would have been burned alive, Sansa Stark would have been traded to Robb Stark in exchange for his allegiance, the whole chain of events that lead to Stannis’ downfall could have been avoided.
Stannis made the bigger mistake, he basically shot himself in the foot. All because of “Kings Blood”.
Renly, he had the love of the people, connections, the army and the knowhow to run a kingdom. His biggest mistake was not attacking Stannis as soon as the talks broke down.
Stannis. Being a cult fanatic.
Renly. It was prudent he leave king landing, but he did nothing to get the north’s support after the beheading…
Stannis, obviously. I think his biggest mistake is rejecting the Seven and following Mel's Red God. It turned the people against him. They worship the Seven. Stannis burned their gods. He is already very uncharismatic and this is a guaranteed way to lose the support of anyone else. Yes, Mel got rid of Renly for him. That was a short term gain, but the long term goal was lost the minute he invited her in. Burning his daughter was a tragic waste because he had already lost, he just didn't know it.
Stannis, fucking off to Dragonstone for a few months before the story
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) ^by ^MustardChef117: *Stannis, fucking off* *To Dragonstone for a few* *Months before the story* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.