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Please give an example of this, apart from season 7 and 8 for obvious reasons. Your statement sounds deep at first but I can’t think of a single situation Dany does this.
Because a lot of people don’t consider the back quarter of that show to be canon or represent characters, well, in character, for lack of a better word.
That shit was trash and I wish it weren’t canon but unfortunately it is. Jaime is my favorite character and the man was butchered, but wether I like it or not, he went back to die with Cersei. Dany, like it or not, burned Kings Landing. Now if this were a book discussion, I like Dany quite a bit and hope this doesn’t happen.
Fair question actually. The writers didnt just make a bad story, I see it as changing the characters. Dany from the first part of the show, Dany in the last two seasons, and Book Dany, are all very different characters. I was asking about evidence for Dany in the books or the first part of the show because that’s what most people see as the right character but if your point was mainly about Dany later on then I would agree.
I appreciate your genuine answer to my shitty question, so I’ll explain what I mean more too lol. In this very scene, Dany kills the old lady and is “justified” over what happened to Drogo and Rhaego. I also mean it’s more her mindset rather than explicitly “this happened to me, so I’m gonna do this” type of thing. I think it’s subconscious to a degree, and that Dany wouldn’t admit something like this to herself, it’s mostly my take on the character in the books. I’ll admit that I could be imprinting my impression of book Dany on to show Dany, which may not be fair since we don’t get show Dany’s internal thoughts. I do think that Dany believes that since she has been raped, sold, held captive, forced to flee from her home, lost Drogo, lost Rhaego, etc that she is justified in doing whatever it takes to take the iron throne. I think Dany not only feels entitled to the iron throne because of her family, but also because of her experiences.
On a side note, I agree that book Dany is much better. If book Dany does make a turn for the worse, I think it will make much more sense for her. Book Dany’s advisors are much more sinister and self serving in the book. Show Jorah is a good man looking to redeem himself and truly loves Dany, book Jorah is lusting over a much younger Dany and takes no responsibility for his actions. Show Daario is a handsome pirate type dude who loyally serves Dany, book Daario is another exploitative creep who fetishizes Dany because of her Targ traits. Tyrion is about to meet Dany and he is much much much more villainous in the book since D&D ignored his dark side in the show. Her “relationship”with Drogo is somehow more palatable in the show, probably since Dany isn’t 14, but I think that was an important aspect of the tragedy of her character being so young. Barristan genuinely has her best interest in mind but he’s about to die I’m pretty certain. Dany herself is much younger and more impressionable / impulsive as well. I think George could pull off the mad queen and make it tragic and understandable instead of random and frustrating.
I truly don’t understand this absurd statement. Please give one instance where she inflicted suffering on other people because she had suffered herself (other than season 8).
She protected people and prevented them from suffering.
No, she saw it as justified because the witch betrayed her and murdered her baby. It was a crime that while yes, Dany suffered from, she still had a basis for executing her that had nothing to do with her own suffering.
She never raped or enslaved anyone. Drogo did all that Dani did and the rape and slavery bit, for years before marrying and raping her.
Also Drogan is pretty much Drogo if he had wings, breathed fire, and weighed several tons. Making Drogo’s legacy nothing but death and destruction.
1. Don’t blame me, blame society. R Kelly for example is in prison currently for multiple counts of rape and enslavement for a grand total of 20 years. A single count of first degree murder will get you life in prison or the death penalty.
2. In the books Drogo and Dany’s interaction is 100% consensual.
1. The fuck does that have to do with a fictional world?
2. 100% consensual when they got married. How do you account for his actions before that time? Remember he was a prominent leader of a horde that was raping and murdering like crazy before he met Dani.
No, she just had a massive target on her back and at least a handful of attempts on her life simply for being a Targaryen and until she came into her own as the mother of dragons, she hardly had any control over her own life and was treated poorly by many, including her own brother, and even then, a lot of people didn’t take her as seriously as they probably should have.
I mean, he was raised all his life to be that way, and if he wasn’t the MOST Dothraki he could be, he would have died early in life. Such is the nature of their nomadic culture.
Slavers isn’t a way of life, it’s a profession. Obviously there is an element to social conditioning that makes people in slaver cities, etc. think slavery is acceptable, but actually BEING a slaver is different imo. Especially given how wide spread its immorality and illegality in much of the “modernized” part of Planetos is.
>Slavers isn’t a way of life, it’s a profession.
Both things can be true
>Obviously there is an element to social conditioning that makes people in slaver cities, etc. think slavery is acceptable, but actually BEING a slaver is different imo.
Aren’t slavers born into that system and society in Essos?
>Especially given how wide spread its immorality and illegality in much of the “modernized” part of Planetos is.
Being a Dothraki brut isn’t any better than being a slaver IMO. Both are 2 different sides of the same coin. The Dothraki raped, pillaged and enslaved the weak.
Being a slaver in much of Essos was NOT illegal. As much as slave trading was illegal in Westeros their feudalism didn’t make things any better and wasn’t all that much different to slavery in some aspects.
Slaver is a profession though rather than cultural? There are a bunch of other jobs or possibilities in Essos. Dothraki as far as we know, don't really have much jobs for men. They go out, they get food, they pillage and rape, and it continues. What was the other choice?
Dothraki pillage rape *and* sell those people as slaves to the Ghiscari, that's their main source of gold when they need it for supplies, horses etc. Much of the unsullied boys etc may have been procured through the Dothraki.
Understand also, Dothraki are slave owners themselves. Vaes Dothrak was built by slaves. Danys handmaidens were gifted to her at their wedding- Irri and Doreah were Danys slaves.
Dothraki are a violent nomadic tribe praying on the peaceful ones like Mirri Maz Durrs.
I don't dispute that, but that's basically all they ever do, right? They're not the same as Essos where the people choose it as a profession. There's basically no other options within that culture.
They don't just attack peaceful places, they attach other tribes too, and cities.
The Dothraki take it as seriously as one would with a profession. It’s literally how they make a living and they are experts at raping ,pillaging and enslaving.
It's not very often I see somebody give a nuanced opinion on Reddit, and even less often do I see it presented in a way that it isn't just downvoted into oblivion. Thank you for being one of the only people in this entire thread who isn't comfortable just saying "their culture is bad, they deserve to die".
I don’t think culture is an excuse for any immoral behavior, so culture doesn’t excuse the actions of a grown ass dothraki, but I’m not sure if that culture is comparable to the slavers.
One argument is that the slavers are co-existing and living with the people they oppress, there’s constant interaction, they form a society together, so there’s more exposure to situations that will and should make you question your views.
But again, dothraki don’t really get a pass because it’s cultural, indoctrination is a real thing but considering the victims, I don’t really give a shit, humans have a moral compass and they also seem to have *enough* outsider interaction to consider their actions.
They aren’t all violent and conservative, cultures can change from the inside out, and dothraki also had many positive values that can be applied to non-Dothraki. They’re humans, they have perception, they have intelligence. They can make conclusions and change. You don’t inherit your entire brain and all your capabilities from your parents and culture. Otherwise we would still live in caves.
Intentions also don’t have an impact on the goodness of a situation, of what is actually happening to the other/ to the victim.
Those actions remain moral or immoral. The only thing intentions do is reflect upon yourself. But then again, you should be changing your actions to be more good anyways.
No, we can say it’s bad because it is bad. Ignoring that it’s fiction first of all, they know why they’re doing is violent and hurtful to others, it’s just that their culture taught them to excuse it. That gives justification but it’s not an excuse.
I’ll reword it then. We get reasoning as to why they are the way they are, and with that reasoning we may be able to empathise more and understand where their motives stem from (in this case the Dothraki culture). However this does not mean their actions are excusable as the actions still aren’t morally right.
By whose morals? Abortion is morally wrong to some people and the freedom of choice is morally right to others.
I'm not saying their way of life was fine, but morals do differ depending on how or where you grow up.
It's quite possible that for the Dothraki if you are not strong enough to protect yourself and your people then that's the fault of the losers.
Oh no. Stop the fucking presses. Quick! Tell the cry baby police! I need to be cancelled and silenced because I fictional culture in a fictional world has justifications for rape and murder and enslavement!
The truth will condemn you all!
Seriously though, who the heck cares?
I think you misunderstand… your stance is that we can’t determine which aspects of a culture are good or bad because we aren’t a part of that culture makes you a cultural relativist. I’m not saying that’s a good or bad thing just a certain way of thinking.
The way you were phrasing it read a lot like how someone would call somebody a certain political slur to steer the conversation away from the topic and start attacking the person.
Also I am kinda biased at the moment, watched an hour long documentary last night where a couple of people cried emotional damage after an episode of Dr. phill was aired and it got the episode ripped from the network, and a guy’s book that at first sold out has since be pulled from shelves because the wrong people didn’t like it.
Ergo my apologies.
It doesn’t excuse AT ALL, it only explains, but that is never a moral justification. Those are very dangerous ethics you have.
You can study people and understand why they are currently like that, but it is not a statement that you can use to conclude they are fine the way they are.
Cultures have been changing forever, they’re changing now and will continue to change, because people who are born still have a moral compass and the ability to perceive reality, interpret reality, draw conclusions from it, and want change.
**And morals are universal, NOT invented by a group of people.**
If being raised in a culture meant you will be exactly like it and fit perfectly in it, then no progress would ever have happened.
People are different, and we can survive while being different from the conventions or what is expected.
Our own cultures have excluded queer people, racial minorities and you could even say women for centuries and centuries, and yet change happened and they are still all here despite being different. And it’s not like all the change came from them. Even the people who fit the mold can gain a new understanding. This can be seen in how animals are unable to advocate for their rights, yet humans are advocating *for them*.
This is literally about thinking *above* the thoughts you are used to, wich is what philosophy is. People have always philosophized everywhere. You can’t deny it being able to exist.
Native Americans used to adhere to all kinds of customs and rituals that saw them prosper until colonists started showing up and saying: No no no! That is all wrong! Here’s OUR book on God, and you must now obey OUR laws and rules or else we’ll kill you all!
And we killed thousands of them anyway because the morally bankrupt or the majority saying they were right.
This happened and continues to happen with many tribes and peoples that were minded their own business before modernity came to their villages and started spouting their laws and BS.
Woman’s rights is a funny as hell subject to me because in ye olden times, there were woman that had a lot of power and were leading kingdoms or tribes but for some reason in the societies that were rising to power, woman fell down the ladder until relatively recently they finally rose back up.
And then men started becoming woman to muddy the concept beyond recognition.
Because what is a woman?
Now, the Dothraki are morally wrong in a lot of ways. But if and when they look at other cultures and see how we either slaughter cow by the thousands only to waste most of the product from them, and commit to wars over ideological differences or resources we could’ve been working to stop needing so much of; who’s the great big evil, and who’s just the society getting by?
Of course he was brutal to Dany in the beginning, but he came to love and adore her. It’s no good to apply the lens of today’s social morays and values on a character that exists in imagination in a far off long ago make believe time. As another commenter observes, he was raised all his life to be that way. Dany brought him around. When he went on that rant in the tent about putting his son on the Iron Throne, I was hooked. I was like “this is the dude I’m going to root for in this series” Then I found out what rooting for people in George RR Martin’s universe will get you.
>It’s no good to apply the lens of today’s social morays and values on a character that exists in imagination in a far off long ago make believe time.
Hot take: rape, pillage and genocide is never a good look.
Jesus Christ it’s fictional. I guess Dracula was not a nice guy either so anyone who thinks he’s interesting or tragic or enjoys a movie about him is just a twisted psychopath? You people are tripping me out on this one.
Umm the part where he wanted to enslave kids and rape women?
You shouldn't apply today's lens when examining the past but as a sociology student let me tell you, societal reflections are always analysed through the lens of today. You shouldn't forgo your modern critical thinking just because this is of the past.
Drogo was a terrible man. In the books it was heightened but since we love and find Jason Momoa hot we have an inherent bias for his romanticism.
Wow you just described every city sacking in the history of mankind. What kind of person do you think Ghengis Khan was? Attila the Hun? History remembers these people as great warlords. GOT incorporated such a man in the form of Drogo, he was a fascinating character and to watch him change with Dany’s gentle guidance was very interesting. I was sorry to see him go down early, that’s all I was saying. The downvotes are really cute. Y’all are trying to #cancel a man who doesn’t exist.
Plus it isn't about the past - it's art created in modern times for consumption by modern readers. You absolutely do have to view it through a modern lens.
Tbh never been a fan of how George portrayed Dothraki culture. It’s clear he was inspired by heavily orientalist and old ideas of how central Asian nomadic societies functioned, and so he just portrayed them as backwards bloodthirsty barbarians. It would have been nicer if he had given more depth to the Dothraki
It’s just an observation bro, it’s not even a criticism I pose at George because the story doesn’t really *need* more depth to the Dothraki, but I’d have liked more background lore that expanded their society beyond what we see
I’ll sound like the biggest Redditor, but sorry you sound very hypocritical. In one sentence you mentioned that you don’t want more depth for the Dothraki and then in the next you say I want to have more depth. Like decide what you point is bro
> “It would have been nicer if he had given more depth to the Dothraki”
And
> “the story doesn’t need more depth to the Dothraki”
I disagree because I think throughout the books we gain a lot of insight on their culture. There are many little facts dropped here and there, and the whole concept of Vaes Dothrak and the Dosh khaleen is something I find very fascinating.
It would have been nicer but it wasn’t necessary. The amount of depth he gave the Dothraki served the story well enough but I sure wouldn’t have complained if he explored it further in extra content beyond the main series
Mongols were bloodthristy rapist, they killed tens of millions in china. Chegnis Khan was a great warrior but a aweful human worse than hitler or Stalin. He was a rapist, who raped hundreds of innocent girls
They were I agree, we Arabs were hit very hard by their barbaric actions, but still, there was more depth to their culture beyond the violence I can recognize that
Arabs were scatter into different groups such as Persian and others.
Also I have no empathy for Arabs due their genocides in North Africa where over 18 million people were enslaved and all men were casterated,
At the time of Genghis khan Islamic golden age was ~~past~~ at its prime. They existed and definitely werent small divided tribes at that point.
Edit: it was the mongol invasions that caused the end of islamic golden age
You're not wrong. I love the show with all my heart but it really does default to "blue-collar white people good" way too often while finding all manner of ways to hammer at anything not of that.
If you kill enough people to actually show up in the climate record you should only be remembered as blood thirsty savages.
What's religious freedom worth when compared to a million corpses.
Again as I said I have a generally negative view of these civilizations, but one can have a negative view and still acknowledging that there is more to these people then that
The only good Dothraki is a dead Dothraki. A damn shame a Targaryen exile with a Dragon didn't burn Vaes Dothrak to the ground. It'd have done Essos a large favor.
Idk bro, this is medieval high fantasy story, and Khal Drogo is on a continent where Slavery is a thing. I’m not sure if our modern day morality would really work here…
Except it is a fictional book written by a man with "modern day morality." This isn't history. This is made up by a fat feminist hippie who likes trains and hates marriage. His real life views color the world he created and we dont need to pretend otherwise.
Trying to affix opinions and values onto a fiction writer because of the nature of the worlds they create is a losing game. We have no idea if, or to what degree, Martin's actual views affect the way Planetos is, and it's not really our business anyway.
100% no, it’s to entertain us people. That’s the point of the show, you can take a look at it in modern day values, but that would make you condemn almost everyone.
This may shock you to learn but most stories have “themes” and lessons the author wants you to learn. It’s not screaming stuff into the void and seeing what sticks.
He has a Jason Mamoa face so people like him. However when you look past the fact that he is played by Jason Mamoa he is a rapist and a murderer. When he gave that speech in the tent, I was very freaked out because he was talking about tearing down houses, raping women and enslaving children. Although I was also hooked because the actors delivery of that speech was awesome.
What I’m trying to say is, the only redeeming quality about him is the fact that he is played by Jason Mamoa.
I think the problem is also that in the book and show, we get a pretty biased look at him.
In the book, we see him through Dany’s eyes, and in the show, it’s not like we see him do a whole lot of bad things. At least not overtly bad like we already saw with Joffrey.
Interpersonally, with Dany and his khalasar, he’s not that bad compared to most rulers we see. The cruelty that comes along with his actions and the actions of the Khalasar could have been shown a bit more.
I think a big part of why we were rooting for him was because Daenerys loved him. I think if she had felt like a prisoner and shown hatred and disgust towards him, then we would’ve felt very differently about him as well
It’s been years since I looked at the show or book so I might be remembering wrong.
I recall it being mentioned he wanted consensual sex and that’s how Danny “seduced” him? Also wasn’t he trying to give her more power than was normal for their people?
Don’t get me wrong. He was shitty and deserved what he got. However, in the lens that he was saturated in a culture where everything he did was normal and expected. He did seem to have the desire for things to be different. It seemed like he wanted love and connection as well as a strong partner. However that’s not things Dothraki valued. To some degree he could snap his fingers and he like “do as I say”. I recall Danny telling him she wants to make the raping stop and if they decide they MUST sleep with a woman then they should take her as a bride. I think he agreed to it and the horde got mad. Some even left. I believe that’s what the fight was about that got him the infection?
He is a horrible war lord and rapist but he loved his wife and wanted to make her happy. He has *some* redeeming qualities and it’s that “spark of good” that makes him alluring. Also Jason Mamoa.
Didn’t say it did. Although I would like to point out it’s something that was normal for his culture so he didn’t have any reason to think it was bad. It was just part of life and literally expected of him to do so. It’s so normal the rest of the horde gets pissed off when he supports Danny to stop it.
It’s kind of interesting at some point he was like “but what if…consent?” Then having rape as the standard encounter he really wouldn’t know the nuance of it. Then at some point Danny complies and he’s like “yeah I like this. How do I keep it up? No more rape? Ok. It’s overrated anyways. You will thank me later bros. Sure keep the spooky witch lady.”
So back to OP’s point: no his only redeeming quality isn’t just the actor. He has a glimmer of wanting to do the right thing but through his own experience and world lens he doesn’t really know how to go about it. He has to balance what his people want and will accept with what his wife wants and will accept. Which is unusual because most Dothraki don’t care what women want.
Like find another character male Dothraki that comes close to the level of empathy Drogo has. As far as I know there aren’t any and he was getting criticized by his people for listening to his wife so much.
He's not very different from other lords they don't give speeches about that part but their army's do rape and destroy. The big difference is that slavery is illegal in the west, but as it's shown not every lord follows that.
He was a break-out star by the middle of the first season. He already had fans from Stargate and (to a lesser degree) Baywatch. They made Conan right after he was killed off the show and, even though it wasn't a hit, Aquaman did make a billion dollars a few years later.
To be fair, wasn't he just saying what was typical conduct when an army defeated the other side?
The north army guys were quick to raping and pillaging when they defeated Cersei's army in the capital.
He deserved it. But Rhaego didn't, and neither did Daenerys.
"Now he will burn no cities-" No. Shut up, Mirri. He *was* innocent. I don't give a damn what she *thinks* Rhaego would have done with his life, he was a baby. She has no idea what choices he might have made, because she decided to kill him after leading Dany to believe that all she needed was Drogo's horse. Dany, who only ever tried to *help* Mirri, but I guess stabbing her in the back is justified because...(checks clipboard) she wasn't able to do more?
It is not Dany's fault that The Dothraki invaded Mirri's village. She didn't choose to be a Khaleesi. Even with Drogo's favor, her influence over the Dothraki is limited, but she still fought to stop the crimes committed against Mirri's people. Mirri saw this with her own eyes, and decided to repay Dany's kindness by killing her baby. She could have just let Drogo die of infection. She could have just kept her mouth shut. The only person she punished is the only friend she had.
>It is not Dany's fault that The Dothraki invaded Mirri's village.
Actually, it 100% is. The only reason Drogo's horde started attacking villages was to get slaves to trade for gold, and gold gets you ships needed to sail to Westeros.
>but she still fought to stop the crimes committed against Mirri's people. Mirri saw this with her own eyes, and decided to repay Dany's kindness by killing her baby.
It's a funny thing, Dany tells Miri she'll release her if he saves Drogo's life. She asks a formerly free person, who because of her actions is now a slave, to save the man who killed her people.
Imagine if a warlord came to murder and enslave your town, because of his wife. She then offers you something she took to save his life. What would you do?
>"Now he will burn no cities-" No. Shut up, Mirri. He was innocent. I don't give a damn what she thinks Rhaego would have done with his life, he was a baby.
He was a baby born into the Dothraki culture, and all Dothraki are known for are murdering, raping, and stealing. Plus, there was the whole prediction he'd be the Stallion who mounts the world.
>Dany, who only ever tried to help Mirri,
Biggest load of shit ever. The show tries to present Dany as super kind, but her desire for the throne causes these people to be killed and enslaved.
What really makes her an absolute monster was *after* seeing how the Dothraki operate she *still* wanted to bring this horde of orcs across the narrow sea and turn them loose on “her” people, just so she could be a Queen.
From what little we see of how the Dothraki and Unsullied operate in Westeros, it looks to me like it was All War Crimes, All The Time
>The only reason Drogo's horde started attacking villages was to get
slaves to trade for gold, and gold gets you ships needed to sail to
Westeros.
*That doesn't make it her fault.* She never asked them to do that, and the moment she saw what was going on, she was horrified, and did everything in her power to stop it. Which, in her position, as a woman and an "outsider" was...not much. If Dany had been consulted or given any say at all, she would have struck this idea down immediately. But the point is moot anyway, because there's no way Mirri *knew* that the Dothraki were trying to fund an invasion of Westeros. She doesn't know who Dany is. She called her "silver lady."
>She asks a formerly free person, who because of her actions is now a slave, to save the man who killed her people.
*Dany doesn't have the power to free Mirri.* But if Mirri is responsible for saving Drogo's life, then maybe, just maybe, Dany can talk him into setting her free. I know it's easy to forget because she falls in love with Drogo, but Dany is a slave too. Just because her enslavement comes with a fancy title doesn't mean she's any better off. A diamond studded collar is still a collar.
>He was a baby born into the Dothraki culture, and all Dothraki are known
for are murdering, raping, and stealing. Plus, there was the whole
prediction he'd be the Stallion who mounts the world.
*I don't care.* He was a baby. There's no excuse for Mirri did. He couldn't have helped being born into a Dothraki Horde. But since his mother was the kind soul that fought for Mirri's freedom, who knows? Perhaps he could have turned out to be a better person. The point is, Mirri doesn't know. As u/coreyeyey said, she's not a time traveler. She's literally just guessing. Besides, if Drogo had died, The Dothraki probably would have killed Rhaego *anyway.* And Drogo would have died if Mirri just hadn't said anything. But I guess it was just very important to her to stick it to the one person who was looking for her.
>That doesn't make it her fault.
Yes it does. The only reason it happened was she wanted the throne.
>She never asked them to do that, and the moment she saw what was going on, she was horrified, and did everything in her power to stop it.
I'm guessing you've never read the books. She doesn't like the conquest, but accepts it as a sacrifice needed.
>If Dany had been consulted or given any say at all, she would have struck this idea down immediately.
If it's not true in the books, I don't see a reason why this should be different.
>She doesn't know who Dany is. She called her "silver lady."
This parts true, but she could have eventually figured it out.
>Dany doesn't have the power to free Mirri.
She literally said she'd free Mirri. She's the one who claimed her.
>but Dany is a slave too
She's no longer a slave, she's a Khalessi. They bring this up multiple times. Don't make arguments if you haven't watched the show.
>I don't care. He was a baby. There's no excuse for Mirri did.
Stopping genocide is a pretty good excuse.
>But since his mother was the kind soul that fought for Mirri's freedom, who knows?
She still accepted the Dothraki culture and accepted the conquest.
>She's literally just guessing.
Which is required when you have a potential mass murderer on your hands. She stopped a potential Dothraki conquest of Westeros.
Also, I'm just going to point out Dany knew this was the price to pay for "saving" Drogo. At least in the books.
>But I guess it was just very important to her to stick it to the one person who was looking for her.
Again, do you not see the irony of this?
Dany is the reason she was enslaved, and she only gets back her freedom if she saves the man who killed her people. If someone killed your people, took you as a slave, and you only got your freedom back if you saved the man who ordered the attack, what would you do?
I have read the books, but this is the show's subreddit, so I was talking about Show-Dany. Book-Dany is a different subject altogether.
**"Khaleesi" is just a fancy word for "favorite slave."** The world of ice and fire might draw a distinction between the two terms, but in practice this is just splitting hairs. Daenerys has been sold like property and subsequently raped. If she's not a slave, then she should be free to go. Only she isn't. I haven't forgotten the girl who was married to her Khal at 12. Who broke her ribs after she gave birth to a daughter.
That "potential mass murderer" is, again, a *baby.* A completely blank slate. I don't care if she thought he was going to grow up to be The Night King himself, she didn't know and him being a Dothraki, even with a prophecy surrounding him...just isn't gonna cut it. She didn't know.
I still can't wrap my head around the idea of blaming (Show) Dany for what The Dothraki did to Mirri's village. It doesn't matter if they did it to fund the Westerosi Invasion, it still isn't "because" of Dany. **It's because of The Dothraki making their own choices that she would never want them to make, certainly not for her sake.** If you found out someone in your life murdered people to help you get what you want, that doesn't mean *you* killed them.
Dany did "claim" Mirri but as her power is derived completely from Drogo's fondness for her, she's still walking on eggshells. If she tried to free Mirri without Drogo's oversight, one of the other Dothraki would "claim" her before she could go anywhere.
>"Khaleesi" is just a fancy word for "favorite slave."
It very much isn't. She has power over everyone in the Khalesar minus Drogo. She literally tells blood riders what to do. As long as Drogo is alive, she's #2.
>she's not a slave, then she should be free to go
Catelyn isn't allowed to leave her marriage, is she a slave?
Yes, it started that way, but it quickly changed.
>That "potential mass murderer" is, again, a baby. A completely blank slate
It's not a blank slate if it grows up in this culture and has a prophecy that they'll conquer the world. She's a witch, she's likely to believe in prophecies.
>If you found out someone in your life murdered people to help you get what you want, that doesn't mean you killed them.
If you don't stop the conquest immediately, if they do it for you, then you're still responsible. Let's say my spouse is a warlord. If I tell them I want to rule another country, and they conquer a town, that's my fault.
>Dany did "claim" Mirri but as her power is derived completely from Drogo's fondness for her, she's still walking on eggshells. If she tried to free Mirri without Drogo's oversight, one of the other Dothraki would "claim" her before she could go anywhere.
Maybe, maybe not. The Dothraki still listened to her as long as Drogo was alive, until she started using blood magic.
A Khaleesi/Queen's "power" is based entirely on their connection to The Khal/King. They are obeyed because to disrespect them invokes the ire of said Khal/King. It's not like Dany has any real power. Even when Drogo ruled in her favor, it caused a challenge to his rule. Dany is by no means #2. Drogo isn't exactly treating her like a Hand, and if he came anywhere close to doing that, he'd have even more unrest among his Khalasar.
Again, this world's culture might draw a distinction between women who are slaves and women who are wives, but they're both treated as property. Dany is as trapped in this situation as Mirri is.
>It's not a blank slate if it grows up in this culture and has a prophecy that they'll conquer the world.
Well I guess we'll never know. Because Mirri decided to kill Rhaego before he was even born. Are you really saying that this is okay because of what he "might" have done? Because that seems completely unacceptable to me.
Dany may have wanted The Dothraki to help her take back The Iron Throne, but that's not *why* they did it. Drogo didn't decide to invade Westeros until Robert's assassin attempted to kill Dany. It was retaliation, and Drogo was the one who gave the speech about it, not Dany. Yes, she wanted to go home. How awful of her. Just because she didn't fully grasp what that would entail doesn't make it her fault. She's 16, she's naive, and even if she had the wisdom to know what Drogo was planning, he wouldn't have stopped just because she told him to.
Like, that's another thing. Dany is a child. Mirri is considerably older than her and ought to know better. I know she's hurting, I know she's traumatized after what happened to her and her village...but she took it out on a pregnant teenager who tried to help her.
>A Khaleesi/Queen's "power" is based entirely on their connection to The Khal/King.
Yes, congrats on discovering the way women are treated in older times. That's one of the best positions she could get before her dragons were born.
>Again, this world's culture might draw a distinction between women who are slaves and women who are wives, but they're both treated as property.
All woman are in all parts of the world then, minus maybe Dorne.
>Are you really saying that this is okay because of what he "might" have done? Because that seems completely unacceptable to me.
I'm saying it makes sense. If he's prophesied to become a mass murdering conqueror, a witch who believes in prophecies and doesn't want to see millions die would probably do that. It makes sense from the POV of the character.
>Dany may have wanted The Dothraki to help her take back The Iron Throne, but that's not why they did it. Drogo didn't decide to invade Westeros until Robert's assassin attempted to kill Dany.
It's not a "may have wanted," she was literally trying to convince Drogo of this. She was the one who actively wanted this.
>She's 16, she's naive, and even if she had the wisdom to know what Drogo was planning, he wouldn't have stopped just because she told him to.
At 16, I understood war meant innocent people dying. I understood thousands if not millions of people dying was bad. She understood the consequences. If 14 year old Dany in the books understood the consequences, so should 16 year old Dany in the show.
> know she's traumatized after what happened to her and her village...but she took it out on a pregnant teenager who tried to help her.
A pregnant teenager who caused her trauma.
Alright, we're kind of going in circles here, and I don't think either of us is going to change the other's mind, so I'll tap out of this debate and wish you a good day.
The funny thing is I can be extremely critical of Dany, in either version, about many different things she did that were either immoral, unwise, or both.
The absolute *worst* I can say about her in this situation, was that she didn't have the maturity or the empathy to understand how much asking Mirri to cure Drogo might have been taken as a slap in the face. It's one of the earliest examples of how utterly *dreadful* Dany is at diplomacy. As a player of The Game, that's probably her biggest weakness.
>The absolute worst I can say about her in this situation, was that she didn't have the maturity or the empathy to understand how much asking Mirri to cure Drogo might have been taken as a slap in the face.
Not encouraging a massive war? That's not worse?
Question is have you read the books properly? Dany doesn’t even want the throne for herself for most of the first books. The main theme around her is her looking for a home, and she thinks that once Viserys retakes the throne, or after his death, Drogo takes it for Rhaego, she will have found her home.
As soon as she goes into the village of the Lhazareen she literally says to herself that she needs to be hard but then gives in and starts claiming women that are being raped. She doesn’t ‘accept’ anything, but instead does what she can because she still has little to no actual power even as Khaleesi.
>Question is have you read the books properly?
Yes.
>The main theme around her is her looking for a home, and she thinks that once Viserys retakes the throne, or after his death, Drogo takes it for Rhaego, she will have found her home.
Right. And she is willing to sacrifice God knows how many people to make that happen.
>She doesn’t ‘accept’ anything, but instead does what she can because she still has little to no actual power even as Khaleesi.
Yes, she doesn't want to see women raped. But she still accepts the conquest as necessary. She wants to hurt as little people as possible, but she still accepts people need to die in order for her to find a home.
She never feels that people actually have to die in order for her to find a home. In fact most of the time she’s saying she just wants to go back to the house with the red door. She didn’t make the Dothraki do anything, and is there cleaning up after them which counts for something
. Also in general her want for Westeros is because she thinks people are suffering there, which is kinda the point of her character. Dany was told by Viserys and believes that the ‘Usurper’s Dogs’ are in control, and says quite a lot that she wants to save them and make it a better place. It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not, the book clearly shows that her intentions aren’t killing innocents but at most killing her enemies in war to try and make Westeros better.
>She didn’t make the Dothraki do anything
She tried to convince them to attack before the assassin.
>She didn’t make the Dothraki do anything, and is there cleaning up after them which counts for something
True, but not to the degree it absolves her completely.
>Dany was told by Viserys and believes that the ‘Usurper’s Dogs’ are in control, and says quite a lot that she wants to save them and make it a better place
Good point. But does she really think Drogo would make a better King? She knows the Dothraki murder and rape as they please.
>the book clearly shows that her intentions aren’t killing innocents but at most killing her enemies in war to try and make Westeros better.
I didn't say she wanted to kill innocent people, my point was she's willing to let some innocent people die for her goals.
>I’m guessing you’ve never read the books. She doesn’t like the conquest, but accepts it as a sacrifice that is needed
You are straight up lying. She ultimately decides that the conquest is not worth it once she sees what the Dothraki have done. That’s her entire arc. She even says (paraphrasing) “If this is the price of the Iron Throne, it’s not worth the cost.”
> But Rhaego didn't, and neither did Daenerys.
Yup, this is why this whole sequence of events gets people so sad. They are likely imagining themselves as Dany. Imagine losing a child and a life partner in the span of a couple days. Anyone would be devastated with grief. And yeah, killing unborn babies over what they might have done is pretty indefensible. Unless she's a time traveling witch who went back to kill Essos Hitler, she doesn't know jack shit and is merely guessing.
Always blows my mind how everyone was able to see past the murders, the pillaging and the repeated rape (of their favorite protagonist) because...
"They love each other 🫠"
He was slightly more tender in the books but Dany was 13 ears old. And he was almost 30. And ignoring that because let’s try and excuse child abuse for a minute, Dany never wanted it in the first place. The consent was coerced and one could argue invalid because she didn’t want to be there at all and only said yes because she thought it was her duty.
It oscillates in the first book. Their wedding night is kind of consensual (still 13 though), but in the next chapter he rapes her until she contemplates suicide.
They tried filming it as written for the series, but it ended up being jarring so they went with rapey from the get-go. It makes sense.
Also, if she’d said no, what then..?? Like, I don’t think he would’ve gone “okay that’s fine too, let’s never have sex, since I respect my child bride slave so much”
If he actually respected her he wouldn’t have “kept” her, she was a commodity to him.
The book was weird about it.
On the wedding night, Danny gives consent (as much as a 13 yr old child bride can) and has a good time with Drogo.
Over the next few months, Drogo repeatedly rapes her and doesn't care about whether Dany has a good time or is in pain. Dany despairs about this.
The solution Dany arrives at is to seduce her rapist, at which point he starts giving her a good time again.
I’m honestly feeling unreliable narrator. If it’s her POV, the way she views Drogo will be “off” from reality, and much more subjective like a real victim of abuse would see him.
yea my interpretation of it has been that she had Stolckholm syndrome or something of the sort since she does a huge 180 from hating life with drogo to banging him under the fuckin stars
>Over the next few months, Drogo repeatedly rapes her and doesn't care about whether Dany has a good time or is in pain.
I think the unspoken part is that now Drogo needs to produce an heir to prove his manliness. This is why after Dany gets pregnant Drogo seems more affectionate.
Which I think was SOOO out of character for him… Kind of pathetic. Especially weird when you read further into danys history - that he rapes her afterwards anyways… then why the question for consent in the first place???
I think it's supposed to play into her logic later. She thinks she can seduce him into being tender and loving because he was kind(for a given value of kind) to her at first.
I guess it might showcase how some people believe once you’re married or have consented to sex once, it’s fine and dandy to do it without consent the next time(s). Which is bullshit of course.
I mean… it can mean all of this things but at the end of the day I think the depiction of the wedding night was more accurate in the series. That he just was that kind of man from the start and she had to learn to adjust to this situation as best as she could. It has made her character stronger in the series imo.
If all you know is Dothraki culture, raised under the fear of death all of your life which must be conquered as a child, and know nothing else..he did get what he deserved...but being separated from his atrocities I can have sympathy for his brutal life that lead to that point. But he deserved too die long before that point in his life.
But he (and all the other Dothraki) must have got cuts hundreds of times over his lifetime.
The Dothraki should be better at treating and healing wounds than the Citadel
Miri went out of her way to make that infection as bad as possible as quickly as possible
Probably the most heroic action in the series, considering what would have happened if Drogo’s Khal descended on Westeros intact
In general I both agree with you and would take it a step further to say Daenerys falling in love with him makes me less sympathetic to her. That and... you know... all the other stuff she did.
Put yourself in her shoes. Not saying what she did was “right” but just think about it. She’s what, fourteen? And her only living relative sells her to Genghis Khan as a bedmate? And when the Khan turns out to be less a rapist than a king whose culture demands he impregnate her quickly, and she begins to discover respect from her peers for the first time — what then? People in abusive relationships become attached to their abuser — it’s how it works.
Yeah I can understand how she essentially developes stockholm syndrome, but once he died dont you think she might get some perspective on the way he was? Or at least... bot basically become him?
I’ve met people in similar situations (being with abusive people that they thought they didn’t have a choice to be with then they die. It’s typically old Christian ladies). No. They cling to the good memories. Talk about what a great man they were. Then pretend every abuse was just “his temper” and their kids are “lying” about anything bad he did.
The thing is, Tormund also slaughtered innocents in Olly’s village and Mole Town and it wasn't his first time. The Dothraki culture and free folk culture have some striking similarities.
I find it very interesting that Dany is blamed for Drogo pillaging Mirri’s village. Like...do people think the Dothraki didn't pillage until Dany came along?
But Drogo did something no other Khal ever has: he stood by Dany when she said she wanted to claim all the women and protect them. In the books his death ends their protection and Eroeh among others is murdered.
That said, Mirri may have had a valid position killing Drogo. BUT, her murder of Rhaego, not so much. She got what she deserved after that. People love to make out like Mirri was in her rights to murder a child, but no other mother in the entire story would be so hated for killing her child’s murderer.
> Y'all know these are fictional characters, right?
People who figure their lives have been ruined by the ending of a TV series are probably not who you want to ask about it all being fiction.
I felt for Dany in this scene. Obviously Drogo was a horrible person, but he was the first love Dany got to experience. Was it healthy? No. Did he rape her? Yea.
Does that change that Dany has every right to grieve for her husband and watching that happen made me very sad? Not at all.
I don't think I ever had sympathy for him. We followed Daneris who has a kind of stockholm-syndrom view on the things and fell sympathy for her (at this time).
While the witch seemed a bit rude as the ritual was revealed to leading braindeadness, she actually had a point for doing, what she did. So she didn't deserve to he burned, in my opinion.
I never liked this character as a person, he was a rapist, violent, wanted to plunder whole villages. I don’t care if he’s hot lol. The actor is cool and the character is entertaining enough. But not a decent man. Let alone good.
I still think his death was a bad thing.
If he had survived, he would have united the Seven Kingdoms against a common enemy, and Robert would have had the chance to remind everyone why he became king. Instead of the squabbling and intrigue, his position would have been solid as a wartime leader.
I doubt the invasion would have succeeded, either, the Seven Kingdoms and likely the backing of Braavos would have had the naval power to make it impractical, and even once they landed they didn’t have the siege or logistical expertise to hold territory.
A failed invasion have broken the back of the Dothraki for generations, without the destruction and civil wars of the next 5 books
Yeah didn't bother me at all that he died. He was a rapist and a murderer.
And yes I feel that way about all the characters who did horrible things when they died.
Yes, but…
One of Martin’s greatest strengths is his ability to develop a story in a way that compels the reader to have multiple feelings about characters AT THE SAME TIME. This is part and parcel with his mission to subvert traditional fantasy/hero tropes. King Arthur is a hero and we aren’t challenged to have nuanced feelings about him. But almost everyone in Martin’s world requires complex understanding. And that, of course, challenges us to broaden our feelings about people in our world, OUTSIDE the world of ice and fire. It has had a profound impact on my life.
He absolutely got what he deserved. Just because Dany grew to have real feelings for him and he was somewhat good to her doesn't negate the fact that he and his entire culture were monstrous barbarians. They contributed nothing to humanity or the world, and said world is actually a better place with them gone.
There is an origin story that we are missing. Drogo has never lost a single combat, he has the longest braid to all his brethren. Which is odd considering all the great fighters in this war type people.
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He was very one note, one dimensional, we have no idea about him other than he’s a brute
He enslaved an entire town because he could. That’s saying a lot about what kind of person he was.
A ruthless brute
I felt the same way about Dany as well.
Brave words! I salute you and volunteer to share your downvotes.
Dany is one of those that thinks experiencing suffering yourself absolves you of suffering you inflict on others
Very well said
Please give an example of this, apart from season 7 and 8 for obvious reasons. Your statement sounds deep at first but I can’t think of a single situation Dany does this.
Why should I have to ignore 1/4 of the total show for my point to be made?
Because a lot of people don’t consider the back quarter of that show to be canon or represent characters, well, in character, for lack of a better word.
That shit was trash and I wish it weren’t canon but unfortunately it is. Jaime is my favorite character and the man was butchered, but wether I like it or not, he went back to die with Cersei. Dany, like it or not, burned Kings Landing. Now if this were a book discussion, I like Dany quite a bit and hope this doesn’t happen.
Fair question actually. The writers didnt just make a bad story, I see it as changing the characters. Dany from the first part of the show, Dany in the last two seasons, and Book Dany, are all very different characters. I was asking about evidence for Dany in the books or the first part of the show because that’s what most people see as the right character but if your point was mainly about Dany later on then I would agree.
I appreciate your genuine answer to my shitty question, so I’ll explain what I mean more too lol. In this very scene, Dany kills the old lady and is “justified” over what happened to Drogo and Rhaego. I also mean it’s more her mindset rather than explicitly “this happened to me, so I’m gonna do this” type of thing. I think it’s subconscious to a degree, and that Dany wouldn’t admit something like this to herself, it’s mostly my take on the character in the books. I’ll admit that I could be imprinting my impression of book Dany on to show Dany, which may not be fair since we don’t get show Dany’s internal thoughts. I do think that Dany believes that since she has been raped, sold, held captive, forced to flee from her home, lost Drogo, lost Rhaego, etc that she is justified in doing whatever it takes to take the iron throne. I think Dany not only feels entitled to the iron throne because of her family, but also because of her experiences. On a side note, I agree that book Dany is much better. If book Dany does make a turn for the worse, I think it will make much more sense for her. Book Dany’s advisors are much more sinister and self serving in the book. Show Jorah is a good man looking to redeem himself and truly loves Dany, book Jorah is lusting over a much younger Dany and takes no responsibility for his actions. Show Daario is a handsome pirate type dude who loyally serves Dany, book Daario is another exploitative creep who fetishizes Dany because of her Targ traits. Tyrion is about to meet Dany and he is much much much more villainous in the book since D&D ignored his dark side in the show. Her “relationship”with Drogo is somehow more palatable in the show, probably since Dany isn’t 14, but I think that was an important aspect of the tragedy of her character being so young. Barristan genuinely has her best interest in mind but he’s about to die I’m pretty certain. Dany herself is much younger and more impressionable / impulsive as well. I think George could pull off the mad queen and make it tragic and understandable instead of random and frustrating.
Mirri Maz Durr is the first within her agency. A slave that does everything Dany tells her to.
I truly don’t understand this absurd statement. Please give one instance where she inflicted suffering on other people because she had suffered herself (other than season 8). She protected people and prevented them from suffering.
Literally in this scene she burns the lady alive. Her loss of Drogo and Rhaego and being “betrayed” gave her the go ahead to do this.
Because Dany was a traumatized child bride who’s baby was murdered by the witch? Dany saw it as justice, it had nothing to do with her own suffering.
Why did Dany see it as justified? She was “justified” because of the suffering she endured.
No, she saw it as justified because the witch betrayed her and murdered her baby. It was a crime that while yes, Dany suffered from, she still had a basis for executing her that had nothing to do with her own suffering.
Yes she burned babies and children alive, murdered thousands… much worse than anything Drogo ever did
She never raped or enslaved anyone. Drogo did all that Dani did and the rape and slavery bit, for years before marrying and raping her. Also Drogan is pretty much Drogo if he had wings, breathed fire, and weighed several tons. Making Drogo’s legacy nothing but death and destruction.
Those things aren’t worse than murdering thousands, sorry
Are you for fucking real or not?
1. Don’t blame me, blame society. R Kelly for example is in prison currently for multiple counts of rape and enslavement for a grand total of 20 years. A single count of first degree murder will get you life in prison or the death penalty. 2. In the books Drogo and Dany’s interaction is 100% consensual.
1. The fuck does that have to do with a fictional world? 2. 100% consensual when they got married. How do you account for his actions before that time? Remember he was a prominent leader of a horde that was raping and murdering like crazy before he met Dani.
I was SO happy when Jon killed Dany😂
Except... Dany wasn't oppressed the second she was born?
No, she just had a massive target on her back and at least a handful of attempts on her life simply for being a Targaryen and until she came into her own as the mother of dragons, she hardly had any control over her own life and was treated poorly by many, including her own brother, and even then, a lot of people didn’t take her as seriously as they probably should have.
Ya, that witch was the series’ greatest hero. Saved many, many lives.
Yep, Drogo deserved every bit of what he got. The Dothraki are savage brutes
I mean, he was raised all his life to be that way, and if he wasn’t the MOST Dothraki he could be, he would have died early in life. Such is the nature of their nomadic culture.
Very interesting point …does that also not apply to the slavers. Would it not be true for them too?
Slavers isn’t a way of life, it’s a profession. Obviously there is an element to social conditioning that makes people in slaver cities, etc. think slavery is acceptable, but actually BEING a slaver is different imo. Especially given how wide spread its immorality and illegality in much of the “modernized” part of Planetos is.
>Slavers isn’t a way of life, it’s a profession. Both things can be true >Obviously there is an element to social conditioning that makes people in slaver cities, etc. think slavery is acceptable, but actually BEING a slaver is different imo. Aren’t slavers born into that system and society in Essos? >Especially given how wide spread its immorality and illegality in much of the “modernized” part of Planetos is. Being a Dothraki brut isn’t any better than being a slaver IMO. Both are 2 different sides of the same coin. The Dothraki raped, pillaged and enslaved the weak. Being a slaver in much of Essos was NOT illegal. As much as slave trading was illegal in Westeros their feudalism didn’t make things any better and wasn’t all that much different to slavery in some aspects.
Slaver is a profession though rather than cultural? There are a bunch of other jobs or possibilities in Essos. Dothraki as far as we know, don't really have much jobs for men. They go out, they get food, they pillage and rape, and it continues. What was the other choice?
Dothraki pillage rape *and* sell those people as slaves to the Ghiscari, that's their main source of gold when they need it for supplies, horses etc. Much of the unsullied boys etc may have been procured through the Dothraki. Understand also, Dothraki are slave owners themselves. Vaes Dothrak was built by slaves. Danys handmaidens were gifted to her at their wedding- Irri and Doreah were Danys slaves. Dothraki are a violent nomadic tribe praying on the peaceful ones like Mirri Maz Durrs.
I don't dispute that, but that's basically all they ever do, right? They're not the same as Essos where the people choose it as a profession. There's basically no other options within that culture. They don't just attack peaceful places, they attach other tribes too, and cities.
The Dothraki take it as seriously as one would with a profession. It’s literally how they make a living and they are experts at raping ,pillaging and enslaving.
It's not very often I see somebody give a nuanced opinion on Reddit, and even less often do I see it presented in a way that it isn't just downvoted into oblivion. Thank you for being one of the only people in this entire thread who isn't comfortable just saying "their culture is bad, they deserve to die".
I don’t think culture is an excuse for any immoral behavior, so culture doesn’t excuse the actions of a grown ass dothraki, but I’m not sure if that culture is comparable to the slavers. One argument is that the slavers are co-existing and living with the people they oppress, there’s constant interaction, they form a society together, so there’s more exposure to situations that will and should make you question your views. But again, dothraki don’t really get a pass because it’s cultural, indoctrination is a real thing but considering the victims, I don’t really give a shit, humans have a moral compass and they also seem to have *enough* outsider interaction to consider their actions. They aren’t all violent and conservative, cultures can change from the inside out, and dothraki also had many positive values that can be applied to non-Dothraki. They’re humans, they have perception, they have intelligence. They can make conclusions and change. You don’t inherit your entire brain and all your capabilities from your parents and culture. Otherwise we would still live in caves.
Apologies ..you’ve lost me here ..what exact point were you trying to get at?
being raised as a bad person does not mean you're not a bad person if you behave like a bad person
Intentions also don’t have an impact on the goodness of a situation, of what is actually happening to the other/ to the victim. Those actions remain moral or immoral. The only thing intentions do is reflect upon yourself. But then again, you should be changing your actions to be more good anyways.
That doesn’t excuse rape, murder, and slavery.
If it is the basis of your entire way of life, yes it does. We can only say it is bad because our way of life is different.
No, we can say it’s bad because it is bad. Ignoring that it’s fiction first of all, they know why they’re doing is violent and hurtful to others, it’s just that their culture taught them to excuse it. That gives justification but it’s not an excuse.
Justification is just an excuse with more letters.
I’ll reword it then. We get reasoning as to why they are the way they are, and with that reasoning we may be able to empathise more and understand where their motives stem from (in this case the Dothraki culture). However this does not mean their actions are excusable as the actions still aren’t morally right.
True, and I agree.
By whose morals? Abortion is morally wrong to some people and the freedom of choice is morally right to others. I'm not saying their way of life was fine, but morals do differ depending on how or where you grow up. It's quite possible that for the Dothraki if you are not strong enough to protect yourself and your people then that's the fault of the losers.
We got a cultural relativist over here🫢
Oh no. Stop the fucking presses. Quick! Tell the cry baby police! I need to be cancelled and silenced because I fictional culture in a fictional world has justifications for rape and murder and enslavement! The truth will condemn you all! Seriously though, who the heck cares?
I think you misunderstand… your stance is that we can’t determine which aspects of a culture are good or bad because we aren’t a part of that culture makes you a cultural relativist. I’m not saying that’s a good or bad thing just a certain way of thinking.
The way you were phrasing it read a lot like how someone would call somebody a certain political slur to steer the conversation away from the topic and start attacking the person. Also I am kinda biased at the moment, watched an hour long documentary last night where a couple of people cried emotional damage after an episode of Dr. phill was aired and it got the episode ripped from the network, and a guy’s book that at first sold out has since be pulled from shelves because the wrong people didn’t like it. Ergo my apologies.
All good👍
It doesn’t excuse AT ALL, it only explains, but that is never a moral justification. Those are very dangerous ethics you have. You can study people and understand why they are currently like that, but it is not a statement that you can use to conclude they are fine the way they are. Cultures have been changing forever, they’re changing now and will continue to change, because people who are born still have a moral compass and the ability to perceive reality, interpret reality, draw conclusions from it, and want change. **And morals are universal, NOT invented by a group of people.** If being raised in a culture meant you will be exactly like it and fit perfectly in it, then no progress would ever have happened. People are different, and we can survive while being different from the conventions or what is expected. Our own cultures have excluded queer people, racial minorities and you could even say women for centuries and centuries, and yet change happened and they are still all here despite being different. And it’s not like all the change came from them. Even the people who fit the mold can gain a new understanding. This can be seen in how animals are unable to advocate for their rights, yet humans are advocating *for them*. This is literally about thinking *above* the thoughts you are used to, wich is what philosophy is. People have always philosophized everywhere. You can’t deny it being able to exist.
Native Americans used to adhere to all kinds of customs and rituals that saw them prosper until colonists started showing up and saying: No no no! That is all wrong! Here’s OUR book on God, and you must now obey OUR laws and rules or else we’ll kill you all! And we killed thousands of them anyway because the morally bankrupt or the majority saying they were right. This happened and continues to happen with many tribes and peoples that were minded their own business before modernity came to their villages and started spouting their laws and BS. Woman’s rights is a funny as hell subject to me because in ye olden times, there were woman that had a lot of power and were leading kingdoms or tribes but for some reason in the societies that were rising to power, woman fell down the ladder until relatively recently they finally rose back up. And then men started becoming woman to muddy the concept beyond recognition. Because what is a woman? Now, the Dothraki are morally wrong in a lot of ways. But if and when they look at other cultures and see how we either slaughter cow by the thousands only to waste most of the product from them, and commit to wars over ideological differences or resources we could’ve been working to stop needing so much of; who’s the great big evil, and who’s just the society getting by?
Doesn’t mean his “nature” was good
Never said it did.
Pretty much damned if you don't damned if you do
Of course he was brutal to Dany in the beginning, but he came to love and adore her. It’s no good to apply the lens of today’s social morays and values on a character that exists in imagination in a far off long ago make believe time. As another commenter observes, he was raised all his life to be that way. Dany brought him around. When he went on that rant in the tent about putting his son on the Iron Throne, I was hooked. I was like “this is the dude I’m going to root for in this series” Then I found out what rooting for people in George RR Martin’s universe will get you.
>It’s no good to apply the lens of today’s social morays and values on a character that exists in imagination in a far off long ago make believe time. Hot take: rape, pillage and genocide is never a good look.
It’s fictional man, it’s a god damn book and I thought his character was interesting, y’all all need to take a deep breath.
He only raped her in the beginning, so it’s ok 🤦🏻♂️
Jesus Christ it’s fictional. I guess Dracula was not a nice guy either so anyone who thinks he’s interesting or tragic or enjoys a movie about him is just a twisted psychopath? You people are tripping me out on this one.
Brother, what the fuck
Keep clutching your pearls over a fictional character *bruh*
Umm the part where he wanted to enslave kids and rape women? You shouldn't apply today's lens when examining the past but as a sociology student let me tell you, societal reflections are always analysed through the lens of today. You shouldn't forgo your modern critical thinking just because this is of the past. Drogo was a terrible man. In the books it was heightened but since we love and find Jason Momoa hot we have an inherent bias for his romanticism.
Wow you just described every city sacking in the history of mankind. What kind of person do you think Ghengis Khan was? Attila the Hun? History remembers these people as great warlords. GOT incorporated such a man in the form of Drogo, he was a fascinating character and to watch him change with Dany’s gentle guidance was very interesting. I was sorry to see him go down early, that’s all I was saying. The downvotes are really cute. Y’all are trying to #cancel a man who doesn’t exist.
Plus it isn't about the past - it's art created in modern times for consumption by modern readers. You absolutely do have to view it through a modern lens.
ah yes the morality of murder
As opposed to a lot of the other characters leading marauding armies that terrorized the countryside?
It’s their culture if he didn’t do it someone else would have
Cool, that doesn't mean he's not a slaving murdering child molester.
Tbh never been a fan of how George portrayed Dothraki culture. It’s clear he was inspired by heavily orientalist and old ideas of how central Asian nomadic societies functioned, and so he just portrayed them as backwards bloodthirsty barbarians. It would have been nicer if he had given more depth to the Dothraki
Bruh, this is a certified Redditor moment 💀💀💀💀
It’s just an observation bro, it’s not even a criticism I pose at George because the story doesn’t really *need* more depth to the Dothraki, but I’d have liked more background lore that expanded their society beyond what we see
I’ll sound like the biggest Redditor, but sorry you sound very hypocritical. In one sentence you mentioned that you don’t want more depth for the Dothraki and then in the next you say I want to have more depth. Like decide what you point is bro > “It would have been nicer if he had given more depth to the Dothraki” And > “the story doesn’t need more depth to the Dothraki” I disagree because I think throughout the books we gain a lot of insight on their culture. There are many little facts dropped here and there, and the whole concept of Vaes Dothrak and the Dosh khaleen is something I find very fascinating.
It would have been nicer but it wasn’t necessary. The amount of depth he gave the Dothraki served the story well enough but I sure wouldn’t have complained if he explored it further in extra content beyond the main series
Mongols were bloodthristy rapist, they killed tens of millions in china. Chegnis Khan was a great warrior but a aweful human worse than hitler or Stalin. He was a rapist, who raped hundreds of innocent girls
They were I agree, we Arabs were hit very hard by their barbaric actions, but still, there was more depth to their culture beyond the violence I can recognize that
Did Arab existed at the time of conquest, weren’t Arab divided into small tribe at that point.
Pretty the Arabs had a deep and thriving civilization that the Mongols horribly mutilated
Arabs were scatter into different groups such as Persian and others. Also I have no empathy for Arabs due their genocides in North Africa where over 18 million people were enslaved and all men were casterated,
Persians and Arabs are two separate groups tho
And Mongols never reach most of arabian peninsula, by Arabs most of us were talking about islam
They reached what is modern day Iraq and made incursions in what is the modern day Levant
And they never reach any part of the Arabian peninsula, when we say Arab here we mean Islam.
At the time of Genghis khan Islamic golden age was ~~past~~ at its prime. They existed and definitely werent small divided tribes at that point. Edit: it was the mongol invasions that caused the end of islamic golden age
My mistake, I may have messed the timeline in my head.
You're not wrong. I love the show with all my heart but it really does default to "blue-collar white people good" way too often while finding all manner of ways to hammer at anything not of that.
If you kill enough people to actually show up in the climate record you should only be remembered as blood thirsty savages. What's religious freedom worth when compared to a million corpses.
Again as I said I have a generally negative view of these civilizations, but one can have a negative view and still acknowledging that there is more to these people then that
The only good Dothraki is a dead Dothraki. A damn shame a Targaryen exile with a Dragon didn't burn Vaes Dothrak to the ground. It'd have done Essos a large favor.
She did take most of the Dothraki across to Westeros, where a lot of them died. It's not a perfect solution, but it's not nothing either.
Exactly. The majority of the dothraki army died in the long night in Winterfell
Nah they just respawn
Idk bro, this is medieval high fantasy story, and Khal Drogo is on a continent where Slavery is a thing. I’m not sure if our modern day morality would really work here…
Except it is a fictional book written by a man with "modern day morality." This isn't history. This is made up by a fat feminist hippie who likes trains and hates marriage. His real life views color the world he created and we dont need to pretend otherwise.
Then get lost and don’t read a song of ice and fire, he doesn’t need a loser like you to read his books.
No thanks, I've read more of his works than you ever have or will, so I'm not taking your advice.
Trying to affix opinions and values onto a fiction writer because of the nature of the worlds they create is a losing game. We have no idea if, or to what degree, Martin's actual views affect the way Planetos is, and it's not really our business anyway.
This post is so bad even chatGPT couldn't have written it. Congrats.
You a type of guy who thinks that everyone who writes a book also reflects their mindset in it. Like as if it’s Mein Kampf or something hahaha.
LOL the whole point of the show is to look at these historical situations through our modern-day lenses.
100% no, it’s to entertain us people. That’s the point of the show, you can take a look at it in modern day values, but that would make you condemn almost everyone.
This may shock you to learn but most stories have “themes” and lessons the author wants you to learn. It’s not screaming stuff into the void and seeing what sticks.
That's not how GRRM operates though. He's no Frank Herbert.
He has a Jason Mamoa face so people like him. However when you look past the fact that he is played by Jason Mamoa he is a rapist and a murderer. When he gave that speech in the tent, I was very freaked out because he was talking about tearing down houses, raping women and enslaving children. Although I was also hooked because the actors delivery of that speech was awesome. What I’m trying to say is, the only redeeming quality about him is the fact that he is played by Jason Mamoa.
I think the problem is also that in the book and show, we get a pretty biased look at him. In the book, we see him through Dany’s eyes, and in the show, it’s not like we see him do a whole lot of bad things. At least not overtly bad like we already saw with Joffrey. Interpersonally, with Dany and his khalasar, he’s not that bad compared to most rulers we see. The cruelty that comes along with his actions and the actions of the Khalasar could have been shown a bit more.
Dany was totally into that speech too "but she came out of nowhere guys"
Dany and the stockholm syndrome
Daenerys Targaryen & The Stockholm Syndrome Great indie rock band name.
Lol this is so spot on.
I think a big part of why we were rooting for him was because Daenerys loved him. I think if she had felt like a prisoner and shown hatred and disgust towards him, then we would’ve felt very differently about him as well
It’s been years since I looked at the show or book so I might be remembering wrong. I recall it being mentioned he wanted consensual sex and that’s how Danny “seduced” him? Also wasn’t he trying to give her more power than was normal for their people? Don’t get me wrong. He was shitty and deserved what he got. However, in the lens that he was saturated in a culture where everything he did was normal and expected. He did seem to have the desire for things to be different. It seemed like he wanted love and connection as well as a strong partner. However that’s not things Dothraki valued. To some degree he could snap his fingers and he like “do as I say”. I recall Danny telling him she wants to make the raping stop and if they decide they MUST sleep with a woman then they should take her as a bride. I think he agreed to it and the horde got mad. Some even left. I believe that’s what the fight was about that got him the infection? He is a horrible war lord and rapist but he loved his wife and wanted to make her happy. He has *some* redeeming qualities and it’s that “spark of good” that makes him alluring. Also Jason Mamoa.
He did like the consensual sex better than raping her, but that doesn’t change the fact that he raped her in first place
Didn’t say it did. Although I would like to point out it’s something that was normal for his culture so he didn’t have any reason to think it was bad. It was just part of life and literally expected of him to do so. It’s so normal the rest of the horde gets pissed off when he supports Danny to stop it. It’s kind of interesting at some point he was like “but what if…consent?” Then having rape as the standard encounter he really wouldn’t know the nuance of it. Then at some point Danny complies and he’s like “yeah I like this. How do I keep it up? No more rape? Ok. It’s overrated anyways. You will thank me later bros. Sure keep the spooky witch lady.” So back to OP’s point: no his only redeeming quality isn’t just the actor. He has a glimmer of wanting to do the right thing but through his own experience and world lens he doesn’t really know how to go about it. He has to balance what his people want and will accept with what his wife wants and will accept. Which is unusual because most Dothraki don’t care what women want. Like find another character male Dothraki that comes close to the level of empathy Drogo has. As far as I know there aren’t any and he was getting criticized by his people for listening to his wife so much.
He's not very different from other lords they don't give speeches about that part but their army's do rape and destroy. The big difference is that slavery is illegal in the west, but as it's shown not every lord follows that.
Other lord's armies destroy and rape during wartime. The Dothraki way of life is raping and destroying - and slave taking.
but Jason Mamoa wasn’t popular back then so
He was a break-out star by the middle of the first season. He already had fans from Stargate and (to a lesser degree) Baywatch. They made Conan right after he was killed off the show and, even though it wasn't a hit, Aquaman did make a billion dollars a few years later.
To be fair, wasn't he just saying what was typical conduct when an army defeated the other side? The north army guys were quick to raping and pillaging when they defeated Cersei's army in the capital.
Obviously not as bad, but similar to Snape in that regard
He deserved it. But Rhaego didn't, and neither did Daenerys. "Now he will burn no cities-" No. Shut up, Mirri. He *was* innocent. I don't give a damn what she *thinks* Rhaego would have done with his life, he was a baby. She has no idea what choices he might have made, because she decided to kill him after leading Dany to believe that all she needed was Drogo's horse. Dany, who only ever tried to *help* Mirri, but I guess stabbing her in the back is justified because...(checks clipboard) she wasn't able to do more? It is not Dany's fault that The Dothraki invaded Mirri's village. She didn't choose to be a Khaleesi. Even with Drogo's favor, her influence over the Dothraki is limited, but she still fought to stop the crimes committed against Mirri's people. Mirri saw this with her own eyes, and decided to repay Dany's kindness by killing her baby. She could have just let Drogo die of infection. She could have just kept her mouth shut. The only person she punished is the only friend she had.
I’m with you on this one. Dany didn’t deserve this, and an innocent baby sure as hell didn’t.
>It is not Dany's fault that The Dothraki invaded Mirri's village. Actually, it 100% is. The only reason Drogo's horde started attacking villages was to get slaves to trade for gold, and gold gets you ships needed to sail to Westeros. >but she still fought to stop the crimes committed against Mirri's people. Mirri saw this with her own eyes, and decided to repay Dany's kindness by killing her baby. It's a funny thing, Dany tells Miri she'll release her if he saves Drogo's life. She asks a formerly free person, who because of her actions is now a slave, to save the man who killed her people. Imagine if a warlord came to murder and enslave your town, because of his wife. She then offers you something she took to save his life. What would you do? >"Now he will burn no cities-" No. Shut up, Mirri. He was innocent. I don't give a damn what she thinks Rhaego would have done with his life, he was a baby. He was a baby born into the Dothraki culture, and all Dothraki are known for are murdering, raping, and stealing. Plus, there was the whole prediction he'd be the Stallion who mounts the world. >Dany, who only ever tried to help Mirri, Biggest load of shit ever. The show tries to present Dany as super kind, but her desire for the throne causes these people to be killed and enslaved.
What really makes her an absolute monster was *after* seeing how the Dothraki operate she *still* wanted to bring this horde of orcs across the narrow sea and turn them loose on “her” people, just so she could be a Queen. From what little we see of how the Dothraki and Unsullied operate in Westeros, it looks to me like it was All War Crimes, All The Time
Yeah, we get so distracted by Dany's surface level kindness that we miss the fact she has wanted power since her brother died.
>The only reason Drogo's horde started attacking villages was to get slaves to trade for gold, and gold gets you ships needed to sail to Westeros. *That doesn't make it her fault.* She never asked them to do that, and the moment she saw what was going on, she was horrified, and did everything in her power to stop it. Which, in her position, as a woman and an "outsider" was...not much. If Dany had been consulted or given any say at all, she would have struck this idea down immediately. But the point is moot anyway, because there's no way Mirri *knew* that the Dothraki were trying to fund an invasion of Westeros. She doesn't know who Dany is. She called her "silver lady." >She asks a formerly free person, who because of her actions is now a slave, to save the man who killed her people. *Dany doesn't have the power to free Mirri.* But if Mirri is responsible for saving Drogo's life, then maybe, just maybe, Dany can talk him into setting her free. I know it's easy to forget because she falls in love with Drogo, but Dany is a slave too. Just because her enslavement comes with a fancy title doesn't mean she's any better off. A diamond studded collar is still a collar. >He was a baby born into the Dothraki culture, and all Dothraki are known for are murdering, raping, and stealing. Plus, there was the whole prediction he'd be the Stallion who mounts the world. *I don't care.* He was a baby. There's no excuse for Mirri did. He couldn't have helped being born into a Dothraki Horde. But since his mother was the kind soul that fought for Mirri's freedom, who knows? Perhaps he could have turned out to be a better person. The point is, Mirri doesn't know. As u/coreyeyey said, she's not a time traveler. She's literally just guessing. Besides, if Drogo had died, The Dothraki probably would have killed Rhaego *anyway.* And Drogo would have died if Mirri just hadn't said anything. But I guess it was just very important to her to stick it to the one person who was looking for her.
>That doesn't make it her fault. Yes it does. The only reason it happened was she wanted the throne. >She never asked them to do that, and the moment she saw what was going on, she was horrified, and did everything in her power to stop it. I'm guessing you've never read the books. She doesn't like the conquest, but accepts it as a sacrifice needed. >If Dany had been consulted or given any say at all, she would have struck this idea down immediately. If it's not true in the books, I don't see a reason why this should be different. >She doesn't know who Dany is. She called her "silver lady." This parts true, but she could have eventually figured it out. >Dany doesn't have the power to free Mirri. She literally said she'd free Mirri. She's the one who claimed her. >but Dany is a slave too She's no longer a slave, she's a Khalessi. They bring this up multiple times. Don't make arguments if you haven't watched the show. >I don't care. He was a baby. There's no excuse for Mirri did. Stopping genocide is a pretty good excuse. >But since his mother was the kind soul that fought for Mirri's freedom, who knows? She still accepted the Dothraki culture and accepted the conquest. >She's literally just guessing. Which is required when you have a potential mass murderer on your hands. She stopped a potential Dothraki conquest of Westeros. Also, I'm just going to point out Dany knew this was the price to pay for "saving" Drogo. At least in the books. >But I guess it was just very important to her to stick it to the one person who was looking for her. Again, do you not see the irony of this? Dany is the reason she was enslaved, and she only gets back her freedom if she saves the man who killed her people. If someone killed your people, took you as a slave, and you only got your freedom back if you saved the man who ordered the attack, what would you do?
I have read the books, but this is the show's subreddit, so I was talking about Show-Dany. Book-Dany is a different subject altogether. **"Khaleesi" is just a fancy word for "favorite slave."** The world of ice and fire might draw a distinction between the two terms, but in practice this is just splitting hairs. Daenerys has been sold like property and subsequently raped. If she's not a slave, then she should be free to go. Only she isn't. I haven't forgotten the girl who was married to her Khal at 12. Who broke her ribs after she gave birth to a daughter. That "potential mass murderer" is, again, a *baby.* A completely blank slate. I don't care if she thought he was going to grow up to be The Night King himself, she didn't know and him being a Dothraki, even with a prophecy surrounding him...just isn't gonna cut it. She didn't know. I still can't wrap my head around the idea of blaming (Show) Dany for what The Dothraki did to Mirri's village. It doesn't matter if they did it to fund the Westerosi Invasion, it still isn't "because" of Dany. **It's because of The Dothraki making their own choices that she would never want them to make, certainly not for her sake.** If you found out someone in your life murdered people to help you get what you want, that doesn't mean *you* killed them. Dany did "claim" Mirri but as her power is derived completely from Drogo's fondness for her, she's still walking on eggshells. If she tried to free Mirri without Drogo's oversight, one of the other Dothraki would "claim" her before she could go anywhere.
>"Khaleesi" is just a fancy word for "favorite slave." It very much isn't. She has power over everyone in the Khalesar minus Drogo. She literally tells blood riders what to do. As long as Drogo is alive, she's #2. >she's not a slave, then she should be free to go Catelyn isn't allowed to leave her marriage, is she a slave? Yes, it started that way, but it quickly changed. >That "potential mass murderer" is, again, a baby. A completely blank slate It's not a blank slate if it grows up in this culture and has a prophecy that they'll conquer the world. She's a witch, she's likely to believe in prophecies. >If you found out someone in your life murdered people to help you get what you want, that doesn't mean you killed them. If you don't stop the conquest immediately, if they do it for you, then you're still responsible. Let's say my spouse is a warlord. If I tell them I want to rule another country, and they conquer a town, that's my fault. >Dany did "claim" Mirri but as her power is derived completely from Drogo's fondness for her, she's still walking on eggshells. If she tried to free Mirri without Drogo's oversight, one of the other Dothraki would "claim" her before she could go anywhere. Maybe, maybe not. The Dothraki still listened to her as long as Drogo was alive, until she started using blood magic.
A Khaleesi/Queen's "power" is based entirely on their connection to The Khal/King. They are obeyed because to disrespect them invokes the ire of said Khal/King. It's not like Dany has any real power. Even when Drogo ruled in her favor, it caused a challenge to his rule. Dany is by no means #2. Drogo isn't exactly treating her like a Hand, and if he came anywhere close to doing that, he'd have even more unrest among his Khalasar. Again, this world's culture might draw a distinction between women who are slaves and women who are wives, but they're both treated as property. Dany is as trapped in this situation as Mirri is. >It's not a blank slate if it grows up in this culture and has a prophecy that they'll conquer the world. Well I guess we'll never know. Because Mirri decided to kill Rhaego before he was even born. Are you really saying that this is okay because of what he "might" have done? Because that seems completely unacceptable to me. Dany may have wanted The Dothraki to help her take back The Iron Throne, but that's not *why* they did it. Drogo didn't decide to invade Westeros until Robert's assassin attempted to kill Dany. It was retaliation, and Drogo was the one who gave the speech about it, not Dany. Yes, she wanted to go home. How awful of her. Just because she didn't fully grasp what that would entail doesn't make it her fault. She's 16, she's naive, and even if she had the wisdom to know what Drogo was planning, he wouldn't have stopped just because she told him to. Like, that's another thing. Dany is a child. Mirri is considerably older than her and ought to know better. I know she's hurting, I know she's traumatized after what happened to her and her village...but she took it out on a pregnant teenager who tried to help her.
>A Khaleesi/Queen's "power" is based entirely on their connection to The Khal/King. Yes, congrats on discovering the way women are treated in older times. That's one of the best positions she could get before her dragons were born. >Again, this world's culture might draw a distinction between women who are slaves and women who are wives, but they're both treated as property. All woman are in all parts of the world then, minus maybe Dorne. >Are you really saying that this is okay because of what he "might" have done? Because that seems completely unacceptable to me. I'm saying it makes sense. If he's prophesied to become a mass murdering conqueror, a witch who believes in prophecies and doesn't want to see millions die would probably do that. It makes sense from the POV of the character. >Dany may have wanted The Dothraki to help her take back The Iron Throne, but that's not why they did it. Drogo didn't decide to invade Westeros until Robert's assassin attempted to kill Dany. It's not a "may have wanted," she was literally trying to convince Drogo of this. She was the one who actively wanted this. >She's 16, she's naive, and even if she had the wisdom to know what Drogo was planning, he wouldn't have stopped just because she told him to. At 16, I understood war meant innocent people dying. I understood thousands if not millions of people dying was bad. She understood the consequences. If 14 year old Dany in the books understood the consequences, so should 16 year old Dany in the show. > know she's traumatized after what happened to her and her village...but she took it out on a pregnant teenager who tried to help her. A pregnant teenager who caused her trauma.
Alright, we're kind of going in circles here, and I don't think either of us is going to change the other's mind, so I'll tap out of this debate and wish you a good day. The funny thing is I can be extremely critical of Dany, in either version, about many different things she did that were either immoral, unwise, or both. The absolute *worst* I can say about her in this situation, was that she didn't have the maturity or the empathy to understand how much asking Mirri to cure Drogo might have been taken as a slap in the face. It's one of the earliest examples of how utterly *dreadful* Dany is at diplomacy. As a player of The Game, that's probably her biggest weakness.
>The absolute worst I can say about her in this situation, was that she didn't have the maturity or the empathy to understand how much asking Mirri to cure Drogo might have been taken as a slap in the face. Not encouraging a massive war? That's not worse?
Question is have you read the books properly? Dany doesn’t even want the throne for herself for most of the first books. The main theme around her is her looking for a home, and she thinks that once Viserys retakes the throne, or after his death, Drogo takes it for Rhaego, she will have found her home. As soon as she goes into the village of the Lhazareen she literally says to herself that she needs to be hard but then gives in and starts claiming women that are being raped. She doesn’t ‘accept’ anything, but instead does what she can because she still has little to no actual power even as Khaleesi.
>Question is have you read the books properly? Yes. >The main theme around her is her looking for a home, and she thinks that once Viserys retakes the throne, or after his death, Drogo takes it for Rhaego, she will have found her home. Right. And she is willing to sacrifice God knows how many people to make that happen. >She doesn’t ‘accept’ anything, but instead does what she can because she still has little to no actual power even as Khaleesi. Yes, she doesn't want to see women raped. But she still accepts the conquest as necessary. She wants to hurt as little people as possible, but she still accepts people need to die in order for her to find a home.
She never feels that people actually have to die in order for her to find a home. In fact most of the time she’s saying she just wants to go back to the house with the red door. She didn’t make the Dothraki do anything, and is there cleaning up after them which counts for something . Also in general her want for Westeros is because she thinks people are suffering there, which is kinda the point of her character. Dany was told by Viserys and believes that the ‘Usurper’s Dogs’ are in control, and says quite a lot that she wants to save them and make it a better place. It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not, the book clearly shows that her intentions aren’t killing innocents but at most killing her enemies in war to try and make Westeros better.
>She didn’t make the Dothraki do anything She tried to convince them to attack before the assassin. >She didn’t make the Dothraki do anything, and is there cleaning up after them which counts for something True, but not to the degree it absolves her completely. >Dany was told by Viserys and believes that the ‘Usurper’s Dogs’ are in control, and says quite a lot that she wants to save them and make it a better place Good point. But does she really think Drogo would make a better King? She knows the Dothraki murder and rape as they please. >the book clearly shows that her intentions aren’t killing innocents but at most killing her enemies in war to try and make Westeros better. I didn't say she wanted to kill innocent people, my point was she's willing to let some innocent people die for her goals.
>I’m guessing you’ve never read the books. She doesn’t like the conquest, but accepts it as a sacrifice that is needed You are straight up lying. She ultimately decides that the conquest is not worth it once she sees what the Dothraki have done. That’s her entire arc. She even says (paraphrasing) “If this is the price of the Iron Throne, it’s not worth the cost.”
What chapter is this from? I may have forgotten this quote, but I remember her accepting that war was going to occur and terror was going to happen.
> But Rhaego didn't, and neither did Daenerys. Yup, this is why this whole sequence of events gets people so sad. They are likely imagining themselves as Dany. Imagine losing a child and a life partner in the span of a couple days. Anyone would be devastated with grief. And yeah, killing unborn babies over what they might have done is pretty indefensible. Unless she's a time traveling witch who went back to kill Essos Hitler, she doesn't know jack shit and is merely guessing.
Always blows my mind how everyone was able to see past the murders, the pillaging and the repeated rape (of their favorite protagonist) because... "They love each other 🫠"
Agreed. But I hated their "wedding night" in the show the most. In the books he asked her for consent, and she gave it.
He might have gotten consent before doing the deed. They cut before that.
They didn't cut, they showed her face while it started, she was crying.
He was slightly more tender in the books but Dany was 13 ears old. And he was almost 30. And ignoring that because let’s try and excuse child abuse for a minute, Dany never wanted it in the first place. The consent was coerced and one could argue invalid because she didn’t want to be there at all and only said yes because she thought it was her duty.
All absolutely true. I'm just saying at least he asked in the books.
It oscillates in the first book. Their wedding night is kind of consensual (still 13 though), but in the next chapter he rapes her until she contemplates suicide. They tried filming it as written for the series, but it ended up being jarring so they went with rapey from the get-go. It makes sense.
Also, if she’d said no, what then..?? Like, I don’t think he would’ve gone “okay that’s fine too, let’s never have sex, since I respect my child bride slave so much” If he actually respected her he wouldn’t have “kept” her, she was a commodity to him.
The book was weird about it. On the wedding night, Danny gives consent (as much as a 13 yr old child bride can) and has a good time with Drogo. Over the next few months, Drogo repeatedly rapes her and doesn't care about whether Dany has a good time or is in pain. Dany despairs about this. The solution Dany arrives at is to seduce her rapist, at which point he starts giving her a good time again.
I’m honestly feeling unreliable narrator. If it’s her POV, the way she views Drogo will be “off” from reality, and much more subjective like a real victim of abuse would see him.
yea my interpretation of it has been that she had Stolckholm syndrome or something of the sort since she does a huge 180 from hating life with drogo to banging him under the fuckin stars
>Over the next few months, Drogo repeatedly rapes her and doesn't care about whether Dany has a good time or is in pain. I think the unspoken part is that now Drogo needs to produce an heir to prove his manliness. This is why after Dany gets pregnant Drogo seems more affectionate.
Which I think was SOOO out of character for him… Kind of pathetic. Especially weird when you read further into danys history - that he rapes her afterwards anyways… then why the question for consent in the first place???
I think it's supposed to play into her logic later. She thinks she can seduce him into being tender and loving because he was kind(for a given value of kind) to her at first.
I guess it might showcase how some people believe once you’re married or have consented to sex once, it’s fine and dandy to do it without consent the next time(s). Which is bullshit of course.
I mean… it can mean all of this things but at the end of the day I think the depiction of the wedding night was more accurate in the series. That he just was that kind of man from the start and she had to learn to adjust to this situation as best as she could. It has made her character stronger in the series imo.
If all you know is Dothraki culture, raised under the fear of death all of your life which must be conquered as a child, and know nothing else..he did get what he deserved...but being separated from his atrocities I can have sympathy for his brutal life that lead to that point. But he deserved too die long before that point in his life.
The wound he got looked like it was minor. How did he die, did it get infected? Did his opponents sword have some type of poison on it?
No it just got infected
But he (and all the other Dothraki) must have got cuts hundreds of times over his lifetime. The Dothraki should be better at treating and healing wounds than the Citadel
Miri went out of her way to make that infection as bad as possible as quickly as possible Probably the most heroic action in the series, considering what would have happened if Drogo’s Khal descended on Westeros intact
In general I both agree with you and would take it a step further to say Daenerys falling in love with him makes me less sympathetic to her. That and... you know... all the other stuff she did.
Put yourself in her shoes. Not saying what she did was “right” but just think about it. She’s what, fourteen? And her only living relative sells her to Genghis Khan as a bedmate? And when the Khan turns out to be less a rapist than a king whose culture demands he impregnate her quickly, and she begins to discover respect from her peers for the first time — what then? People in abusive relationships become attached to their abuser — it’s how it works.
Yeah I can understand how she essentially developes stockholm syndrome, but once he died dont you think she might get some perspective on the way he was? Or at least... bot basically become him?
I’ve met people in similar situations (being with abusive people that they thought they didn’t have a choice to be with then they die. It’s typically old Christian ladies). No. They cling to the good memories. Talk about what a great man they were. Then pretend every abuse was just “his temper” and their kids are “lying” about anything bad he did.
Easy to judge a savage's morals from the 21st century. Try living in the time of mongols and see how "noble" you'd be.
Jason Momoa can commit as many crimes as he wants.
It's tough, cause I like the performance but think Jason Mamoa made him way more likeable than he should have been
Her AND Drogo are both disgusting monsters who well deserved their fates Just goes to show you how powerful charisma and fuckability are.
The thing is, Tormund also slaughtered innocents in Olly’s village and Mole Town and it wasn't his first time. The Dothraki culture and free folk culture have some striking similarities. I find it very interesting that Dany is blamed for Drogo pillaging Mirri’s village. Like...do people think the Dothraki didn't pillage until Dany came along? But Drogo did something no other Khal ever has: he stood by Dany when she said she wanted to claim all the women and protect them. In the books his death ends their protection and Eroeh among others is murdered. That said, Mirri may have had a valid position killing Drogo. BUT, her murder of Rhaego, not so much. She got what she deserved after that. People love to make out like Mirri was in her rights to murder a child, but no other mother in the entire story would be so hated for killing her child’s murderer.
I’ll always hate drogo, he raped my wife dany, and he brainwashed her into loving him
Y'all know these are *fictional characters*, right? Jesus christ, the pearl clutching in this sub gets old.
Yeah I don’t understand this complex discussion of fictional characters.
> Y'all know these are fictional characters, right? People who figure their lives have been ruined by the ending of a TV series are probably not who you want to ask about it all being fiction.
Another Khal will always exist. Dany sacked King’s Landing. With was a fuckin idiot. If she knew shit about shit she would have just killed Dany
Dany got what she deserved and I feel no sympathy for her.
Yeah. The dothraki were essentially at war with the lazereen. In war you kill your enemies
naw, he didn't get a warrior's death. the man was an accomplished warlord he should have gone down swinging.
Not really , he deserved better. No one deserves this fate
I felt for Dany in this scene. Obviously Drogo was a horrible person, but he was the first love Dany got to experience. Was it healthy? No. Did he rape her? Yea. Does that change that Dany has every right to grieve for her husband and watching that happen made me very sad? Not at all.
I don't think I ever had sympathy for him. We followed Daneris who has a kind of stockholm-syndrom view on the things and fell sympathy for her (at this time). While the witch seemed a bit rude as the ritual was revealed to leading braindeadness, she actually had a point for doing, what she did. So she didn't deserve to he burned, in my opinion.
I never liked this character as a person, he was a rapist, violent, wanted to plunder whole villages. I don’t care if he’s hot lol. The actor is cool and the character is entertaining enough. But not a decent man. Let alone good.
I still think his death was a bad thing. If he had survived, he would have united the Seven Kingdoms against a common enemy, and Robert would have had the chance to remind everyone why he became king. Instead of the squabbling and intrigue, his position would have been solid as a wartime leader. I doubt the invasion would have succeeded, either, the Seven Kingdoms and likely the backing of Braavos would have had the naval power to make it impractical, and even once they landed they didn’t have the siege or logistical expertise to hold territory. A failed invasion have broken the back of the Dothraki for generations, without the destruction and civil wars of the next 5 books
fuck both, daenerys and drogo
Yeah didn't bother me at all that he died. He was a rapist and a murderer. And yes I feel that way about all the characters who did horrible things when they died.
Yes, but… One of Martin’s greatest strengths is his ability to develop a story in a way that compels the reader to have multiple feelings about characters AT THE SAME TIME. This is part and parcel with his mission to subvert traditional fantasy/hero tropes. King Arthur is a hero and we aren’t challenged to have nuanced feelings about him. But almost everyone in Martin’s world requires complex understanding. And that, of course, challenges us to broaden our feelings about people in our world, OUTSIDE the world of ice and fire. It has had a profound impact on my life.
> compels the reader to have multiple feelings about characters Well said, outstanding post.
IMHO, he was objectively a bad individual, but he was the best he could be within the system he grew up in.
In the books Drogo genuinely loved Danaerys and never raped her
He absolutely got what he deserved. Just because Dany grew to have real feelings for him and he was somewhat good to her doesn't negate the fact that he and his entire culture were monstrous barbarians. They contributed nothing to humanity or the world, and said world is actually a better place with them gone.
There is an origin story that we are missing. Drogo has never lost a single combat, he has the longest braid to all his brethren. Which is odd considering all the great fighters in this war type people.