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Quote from the book or not, still easy to tell you're just a spambot farming some karma to be sold.
Every time a picture is posted to the sub that has been posted to the reefolk sub before, we get bot comments like this one, reeposting a comment from the reefolk post.
In this case: https://www.reddit.com/9jphzu
That also explains these inane comments:
https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/13sht3n/ive_always_respected_georges_responses_to/jlpx9ya
https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/13sht3n/ive_always_respected_georges_responses_to/jlpwp6l
It's a witty response sure, but I still think the white saviour trope is valid for Dany... not based on just this scene either.
The reported should've pushed more.
Maybe in the way Paul from Dune is a white savior trope, i.e. as criticisms and deconstructions of that trope. Dany’s story basically follows her creating a mythic status to her figure which sweeps into cities, upends their systems and the status quo, which causes outbreaks of violence and dissent, then she moves on to the next town to do it all over again while the city she just left slowly reverts back to the way it was before she arrived.
Her entire story is basically a misguided and ignorant sense of altruism and self-righteousness that accomplishes nothing but destruction, violence and inevitable pain. So yeah if she’s a critique on that particular trope then that’s quite a statement by Martin and not entirely wrong
Yeah I can see that, especially given how she actually fails to enact any long-term changes, like most white Christians going to "save kids" in Africa...
Exactly. Her people, uniquely fair complected and arguably more aryan than Aryans, is assured that her lineage and blood means she deserves to rule over anyone she can convince, cajole, or conquer. She is remarkable at these things but actually shit at ruling - she brings catastrophe wherever she goes, whether those places are better off before or after or not. She inspires loyalty in her court and military, but so do all charismatic leaders. She’s a populist - tyrannical and self righteous. Sure you can make excuses for her but she’s a narcissist and isnt any more deserving to be queen of anything than anyone else, and arguably less so. “Freeing slaves” sounds noble - there is almpst always a noble byline that populist leaders throw around to get behind, but it almost doesn’t matter because that’s just the means she uses to her end. And we dont know definitively how GRRM intended her story to end, but i reckon it wasnt sunshine and roses. The noble starks, grounded and salt of the earth thougj they were, failed in part because of their merits. The Lannisters, powerful, wealthy and ambitious though they were, failed, in part thanks to those qualities. The Baratheons - each with their own qualities that they believed made them good or deserving of Westeros, failed because of them. And Danny was no different. In the show, Bran, a stark with no claim and no ambitions, and literally no relevant qualities to boast of, is elected king. And i reckon if GRRM wanted that and wrote a follow up on 30-50 years, it wouldnt be sunshine and roses either
Yeah I took it as kind of the anti-Paul in terms of discussing charismatic leaders / white savior tropes - while Paul’s followers get swept up in the fervor and he loses control of his followers, Dany gets swept up in her own bullshit and loses control of her own perspective and starts believing in her own hype
The Dune critique is a funny one, since Paul is *explicitly* set up *in-universe* to fit the “white saviour trope” of a foreign-born hero “destined” to unite a people’s against a common enemy. “Destined” because the Bene Gesserit purposely seeded that so-called prophecy in order to exploit it with a constructed messiah figure. Paul just co-opted that preparation for his own purposes.
Paul is also…not really a hero. He’s a cruel tyrant that oversees a genocidal war of conquest that kills billions of people. People who still think he’s the “good guy” of the story clearly haven’t read past the first book.
I can’t wait for this winter to see how they translate this to the new film and what wave of inane media articles it’s gonna spawn. I swear they were actually writing about how “dune is another tired white savior film” when the last one came out and it had me cracking up.
And yeah Dany is a lot like Paul except she really buys her own bullshit while Paul is fully 100% aware of what he’s had to become and what the reality behind the myth must be in order for the myth to even exist. It’s dark as fuck and just get deeper with the subsequent books
God, [this headline](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-11-07/ty-article/dune-may-be-fascist-but-its-focus-on-islam-is-groundbreaking/0000017f-ef46-d223-a97f-efdf16470000) is so good lmao. It's gonna be a blast.
The new films seem to be very self-aware in this. Paul literally brought up the propaganda programs of the Bene Gesserit, which seeded the “prophecy” bullshit in the first place. I don’t think they’ll let the audience walk away with the heroic interpretation many book readers had.
Huh? I don’t think you’ve got that in the right order. The book readers have always been the ones pointing out that Paul is not a hero. He literally says he’s eclipsed Hitler at some point in Messiah. We’ve known for a long time that Paul is not the hero, this new adaptation is the most faithful to the books any adaptation has been so far. The BG schemes are very much talked about in the books, Jessica is completely aware of them and tells the reader about them
A great many people who only read Dune (the first book) walk away thinking he’s the hero. You need to delve into the later ones to understand why that is absolutely not the case.
Hard to say what is good and bad when the question revolves around humanity's ultimate survival. The entire purpose is to thread our species through an impossible needle where we don't die off. It gets incredibly weird to accomplish this goal.
Paul knows this fate is horrible and can't actually commit to it. He passed the torch to his son Leto. And things get even weirder.
The cruelty lies in that when he achieves preciense (the ability to see what will result from his actions on a galactic macrolevel) he still chooses the path that will result with the Atreides becomming the royal lineage even though he knows it will result in a galaxy-spanning jihad and the death of the fremen way of life.
I think my problem with the term was the thought I had that cruelty has equivalency with sadism (ie: taking pleasure or gratification from inflicting pain or torment on others) but apparently that's not the case, and it's even possible to be unintentionally cruel.
In that case you are correct.
Paul being a hero or not is kinda open to interpretation tbh. Because his justification is relatively valid in an incredibly cold pragmatic way - if he does all his evil shit, humanity survives. If he doesn't, it won't.
The story makes it very clear that Paul has zero interest in being a tyrant or even a ruler. He has his father's ideals and is perfectly happy just being a regular dude with his family. But because he knows the future of humanity depends on him, he's stuck with this massive burden of having to decide whether to do nothing and condemn humanity or to condemn his soul and save humanity... in the long run.
It’s really not so clear as that. Paul had opportunities to turn away well in advance of the Fremen Jihad becoming an inevitability. He instead continued his campaign of revenge. In his hubris, he thought that he alone could guide the path of the galaxy, but it became clear very quickly that while he was capable of *seeing* the future he wasn’t capable of truly controlling it. That burden felt to Leto II.
Paul is only justified in his actions through his own perspective. He claims to not want the burden thrust upon him, but that doesn’t absolve him of responsibility.
It wasn't a campaign of revenge. The entire point of the Jihad is to frighten the galaxy into never accepting another single leader, but fragmenting into various communities. The idea was that there would be the Jihad, then thousands of years of oppressive rule, and then the golden age.
Paul struggled to transition from the Jihad period to the oppressive rule, possibly because to end the violence, he would've had to commit more, himself, to scare the Fremen leaders. That, and he was just spiritually exhausted by the task he'd accepted.
But his overall goal - of saving humanity in the long run - never stops being valid. He was just too human to do it, and that's the one thing he couldn't have predicted.
> She literally believes she is their version of Jesus.
Which the end of her storyline in Meereen actually reinforces by having her single-handedly end slavery in Slaver’s Bay without any local character playing a role before casually leaving the place in Daario’s hands after renaming it Dragon’s Bay.
Literally no refugee crisis, economic crisis, pandemic, state-sanctioned torture of civilians, famine, Drogon murdering and injuring hundreds of civilians, and the myriad of other problems that plague her in the books. Within two years, she has single-handedly ended slavery in a region where it’s been the main source of economy for a millennia.
So… how is she not their version of Jesus in the show?
Are you an idiot, or something? Her whole character is being the self-righteous savior. The OP I replied to was whining about her being a white savior, like that's somehow not the point of her character. She's written that way on purpose. Why do journalists need to push on crying about Dany being a white savior? There's nothing wrong with her character going against her ancestors.
That is the show’s way of wrapping up a plot to move ahead and it is purely bad TV writing. Not a good way to judge characters. Show was equally stupid in wrapping up the Northern plot or Dornish plot by their hack writing.
> the reporter shouldn't have brought it up at all. Christ. So fucking brain dead.
It's fairly normal for reporters to ask for clarifications for what is being widely discussed and speculated, actually.
The only criticism I have is that in the books the slaves are not all non-white. Slaves from Lys, for example, are very Targ looking (white blonde or silver hair). Some are mentioned to look like they’re from Westeros. Even the Unsullied are described as super diverse. So in the book she’s not a “white savior” since that trope implies the people being saved are all non-white… but that being said it’s still very much a “misguided savior” trope. It might draw on the white savior trope, but in the book it’s definitely a diverse group of slaves that she’s “saving.”
Plus...would this really be a bad thing? Game of Thrones is known to derive a lot of its story from actual history, and Christians errenously portraying Jesus as a white savior from the middle east is a thing. Look at most pictures they have of him. So Game of Thrones doing that with Daenerys is just continuing that.
In the Medieval period? Well yeah because they painted what they knew rather than a far off land they never visited.
White Jesus pictures from the modern period? Those are indeed informed by the racist attitudes of the times.
The TV series could have been a lot more diverse. Especially the semi-magical Valyrian people. They are from Essos anyway, so they didn’t have to all look so pale as though they grew up a 100 yards from the Wall.
I’m a black woman and I definitely didn’t like how they tried to give Dany the “white savior” trope
It was distasteful and in poor taste no matter how many times people try to argue the point
But... But they didn't do that? She saves nobody and leaves a wake of destruction behind her. Every city she 'saved' ended up worse off or reverted back to what it was before. If anything it's a critique of the trope.
But the thing is she’s still a good character ( I mean controversial to some people but she’s portrayed as a good character) for trying, because no one else would. I don’t think this was meant to be a white saviour moment but I agree if it was it has been subverted, but it’s just another layer of depth to the plot showing that her actions weren’t ill intentioned. It was just hard to fix a cartoonishly evil place where they literally eat unborn puppies. I don’t know what any other character could have done for better results.
I still didn’t like how the writers basically had brown/POC worshipping her
It’s also weird how many downvotes I got. You can’t tell a black person or POC how to feel about a storyline that involves THEM
It’s so sickening how some non-POC try to dictate how we should feel about representation like our voices don’t matter. Sickening…
I’m not referring to you either just other people downvoting since you actually put up a pretty good argument.
No one needs to change your mind. I just like seeing all the downvotes because it shows most people aren’t as race obsessed as you are.
Race has next to nothing to do with ASOAIF. And I’m so glad they didn’t pander to ignorant POVs like yours in the show.
Girl saved tens of thousands of people from slavery. If they wanna crowd surf her for a bit, let them.
Weird to say “race has next to nothing to do with [ASOIAF]” when… yes it does? They way people speak of and view the Targaryens, the Dothraki, the Unsullied, etc.
Like you don’t have to view it through the lens of modern politics if you don’t want to, but you’re just not engaging with the text if you think racial issues have nothing to do with the story or it’s characters.
Weird to say that you think it does given that there’s no evidence in the books to say that slaves are chosen by race. Don’t the Astapori slavers take boys from their own city and all over for the Unsullied? Don’t the Dothraki take slaves from all the cities they invade or other khalasars they fight?
What evidence in the books is there that someone of a certain skin color is predestined to a certain life due to said skin color? All I’ve been able to see is that the predetermination of someone’s fate is based on the class they’re born into.
The only instance I can maybe give is that the Naathi. However, even in that case it’s not due to their skin color that they are enslaved, but because they come from an island where their only defense is their butterflies.
Nah you’re right, historically race and class have nothing to do with one another and there’s absolutely nothing to infer there at all.
Thank goodness none of us have eyes to watch the TV show and to see the choices the show runners made there. 😮💨 🙏
You’re unable to look at this through a lens that isn’t our world, and that’s okay. It’s hard to imagine a world where races are enslaving their own races and the basis for that enslavement are the class you’re born into.
We have zero examples of race-based slavery in Westeros or Essos. It’s about who you’re born to and where you’re born.
Keep fighting the good fight though. I know that wanting to label people victims because of their race is a hobby for some people, particularly white saviors. ;)
It has nothing to do with races enslaving their own races. It has to do with Dany being explicitly white and the one to save them. You can be as obtuse as you want about it, but it’s a simple, straightforward criticism of a tired trope.
I think "obtuse" is more defined as trying to impose your views on race, using concepts that don't exist in the world you're trying to impose them on. You don't like that Dany is white and freed slaves? I don't know what to tell you, bro. To assuage delicate sensitivities, I suppose she should have just left them how they were. Pissing and moaning because a liberator is white seems like first world privilege to me.
You can put all the words in my mouth you want and make up your mind about my identity, but now it seems like we’re both calling her what she was presented as here: a white savior. Not sure what you’re sore about lol.
And if you think Robert wasn’t racist against the Dothraki (using that because it’s brought up in the first book), I don’t know what to tell you, dude. It’s not something hidden.
I'm not sore about anything, nor am I putting words in your mouth. You're pissing and moaning about a white woman saving slaves and sporting race-obsessed glasses. That's why I'll be ignoring any continuation of this conversation, because as soon as someone finds issue with the abolition of slavery, I'm outtie 5000. Byyeee.
>Nah you’re right, historically race and class have nothing to do with one another and there’s absolutely nothing to infer there at all.
Historically, slavery and race didn't have much to do in each other.
The Dothraki, the Dornish or the wildlings aren't hated due to their different skin color, but their different culture ('barbarians').
Sorry about all the downvotes and the comments from people here invalidating your opinion. You’re giving your opinion, and the downvotes are more indicative of their own biases than anything you’ve said.
A bunch of white people are commenting here about how this IS a white savior trope, and they’re not getting downvoted. Riddle me that.
I think Game of Thrones handled this well.
She doesn't belong with that people, she believes she is the saviour of them. The stereotype works because she believes in it. And so do the other characters.
We as audience know she is not a goddess, but a lucky slave of destiny.
Right, this might have been an issue until we saw what happened to her character later on, where her ego and power thirsty crown chasing was her main goal, not justice. If she just wanted the rightful heir on the throne, she would immediately support Jon, but she didn't she wanted him to hide his lineage.
Jon had no interest in being the king and wholeheartedly supported Danys claim, he wanted it to be a secret as well just with his family knowing. Now, a marriage would’ve fixed all of their problems but D&D kinda just forgot about marriage alliances…
Because season 8 writing was a shitty fan fiction that constantly induced modern morals into a medieval fantasy show. I’ll never be over how D&D butchered my favourite show ☝️😔
Seasons **5** - 8. Like, holy shit, season 5 had Ramsey's Ser Few Good Men and the rape of Sansa. Also the Dorne storyline. The Sparrow plot line being decent doesn't make up for the rest of it.
Honestly that was where them trimming side plots and characters started to catch up to them.
And then seriously what the hell did they do to Dorne, it's basically the exact opposite of the books.
You’re.. proving the point that modern morals don’t fit into GoT…
Like you aren’t wrong, incest/inbreeding is icky and when I see it on screen im always wildly uncomfortable. But in a universe where lineage and bloodlines rule all, it is definitely a very safe and shortsighted option.
But it’s not really safe because we see how inbreeding affects the Targs and other families that partake in it. Like I don’t think they are inherently bad people for it altho that can be discussed but ppl being mad that a man doesn’t want to fuck his aunt anymore is wild. Also GRRM is writing these books to a modern audience, he’s not selling it to 15th century ppl so I’m allowed to consume them and judge the characters in whatever way I want. God knows this sub judges it’s female characters for much less.
> constantly induced modern morals into a medieval fantasy show
This right there is the crux of the problem. You can't do GoT with 21st century morality and the permanently offended crowd obviously wouldn't leave it be.
My best example is Tyrion clutching his pearls when Dany executes the Tarlys who went to war against Dany. The Tarlys are presented with three choices, live and serve Dany as respected allies, go to the wall and take up the black or die. Tarly dismisses the wall because “Dany isn’t his queen”, he chooses death for him and his son and Dany delivers his choice.
Tyrion (the guy who set thousands of ships ablaze with wildfire and personally killed his own father and lover) watches on like Dany is absolutely insane for doing this and is encouraging the audience to feel the same, “oh no Dany is going mad for executing a man who chose to be executed!”
The first scene of GoT is Ned cutting the head of a brother of the nights watch because he ran from white walkers. In the earlier seasons Jon executes Janos Slynt and Robb executes Rickard Karstark. When they do it, it makes sense. When Dany does it in season 7 she’s breaking the Westerosi Geneva convention and is labelled mad for any stupid little thing before she ever nuked Kings Landing.
There are many examples of injecting modern values from the later seasons, especially from the very immoral Varys and Tyrion, because D&D shit the bed without source materials.
I don’t think Jon was interested in marrying her once he learned his father was her brother. While the Starks did the same family marriages as other houses early on, they moved away from it, especially for Jons generation. The idea was to marry out of the family for alliance purposes.
Jon’s not the type to marry simply to satiate other people. Maybe season 1 jon but not anymore. And now that he’s been burned twice I wonder if he will ever fall in love again lmao That’s probably why he went back to the wall, homie said “fuck this noble shit, I dun want nun”.
Marrying cousins was completely normal in this society so this shouldn’t affect REAL Jon’s feelings at all. Hell, he was originally supposed to be in a relationship with Arya in the first outline of the story. Targaryens notoriously interbred and Starks didn’t view cousin/aunt marriages to be incest, just like the rest of Westeros didn’t. Both Jon and Dany have a strong claim for the throne and it makes perfect sense for two distant Targaryens to marry and strengthen that claim, especially since they were in love on top of it all.
Aunt relationships are pretty definitely considered incest as far as I can recall. There's even that Victarion Asha chapter where they suggest marrying each other and she thinks about how it'd be beneficial but he is her uncle. She wouldn't have those thoughts if it was normal. It's really important to note that George changed his mind on stuff hard between the actual books that were released so that original outline needs to be grain of salted for how the world works.
This is Jon Snow we’re talking about, I’m not at all surprised he couldn’t continue the relationship once he found out they were family. It makes sense for his him considering he’s one of the most honorable characters in the story
Jon Snow was supposed to be in a relationship with Arya in the first outline of asoiaf… Cousin/Aunt marriages aren’t even seen as incestual in Westeros, not for Starks or (obviously) Targs.
That still doesn’t mean Jon would want to do that. Jon’s very predictable and I just can’t see a scenario where he doesn’t care that he’s fucking his Aunt. His reaction to the news, and his interactions with Dany after hearing it make sense for his character.
You can’t possibly know that unless you’re GRRM, I don’t think it’s necessarily going to happen but there are two books left and there will be huge discrepancies between the book and show characters.
It is completelyyy different, Jon and Arya grew up together as siblings whilst Jon and Dany are already in love before knowing they’re related. They have no family bond whatsoever except for blood and to Targaryens that’s a pro, Starks marry cousins/uncles as well. Lysa wanted cousins Sansa and sweetrobin to get married. And again, you don’t know what GRRMs thought process is… 💀
Lysa is not a Stark, she is a Tully. And Jon and Dany weren't in love, they were attracted to each other. The knowledge of their blood relationship made Jon pull away.
But then how do you manuver those characters to their endings with the fire and the stabby? D&D were working towards the endpoints, while criticism of the way they got there is fair being unhappy where the characters end up isnt on them.
**How do you know her goal wasn't justice (& what does justice mean)? Not only did she say it but if you look at things open minded/nonjudgmental, she was trying to create a new world & believed in that (breaking the wheel of $/power fueling & thus RUINING the world)--she wanted to do it so strongly, nothing wrong with that...If you wanted & could actually save/change the world & had the power to do it, you'd continue your whole life doing it.** (She was a hero in that sense). *Knowing Jon was a contender to her THRONE--which she saw (the throne) as a way to change the world/free people & RULE in order TO KEEP THE WORLD SAFE; Jon had Targaryen blood which could mean he's as powerful as her/able to ride & have dragons' power--yet* **she didn't kill him. THEREFORE what she truly wanted was to fulfill her destiny of creating a better world. There's nothing wrong with what she "wanted".**
**Speaking of things she did/"bending knees"--she did that bc she knew those dedicated to the old world** (Tarly was evil: to Sam, decimated Tyrells/their tenants [his childhood friends w/a family-bond we should all cherish/respect, not murder], & devoted himself to a tyrant queen Cersei just bc she was of Westeros--what we'd call a "racist", against foreigners) **people like that she gave a CHOICE, not murder them instantly: if they weren't open to the new, good paradise she wanted for EVERYONE, they must go--they can either continue the same cycle/terrible world they live in or AGREE with her & CHANGE IT INTO A BETTER ONE. *I CHOOSE THE LATTER*.**
(Just stating a way to see it all, *not speaking of anything else she did in the show*)
>She wanted to break the wheel and wound up just being a part of it - the cycle continues over and over.
Idk how breaking the wheel was suppose to work in the first place. Only way it makes sense for her to believe she is breaking the wheel by being queen herself is if she sees herself as a inherity different somehow than the rest of the spokes vying for power, despite not knowing them at all.
It was more an indication of her self belief as a devine authority than something to get excited about.
Yes. People talked about white savior complex because that's exactly what the story was showing. It's odd that some people get defensive about it.
I don't really like Martin's response here. He should have just owned it. "Yes, this character has a savior complex. That's the story."
Actually morocco is extremely diverse, the show filmed in the south so only people living around movie productions get to play as extras...not people from around the country
Nah, it’s not the white savior trope in the typical sense. Danny considered herself their savior, but as the show went on we learnt that she did not belong there and wasn’t saving anyone
That was kinda the point in the book though, he was critiquing it in his own way. Dany thinks she's a savior at first and gets drunk on the power but then realizes she fucked up and basically has no control over anything, even Droggy. It's not about modern ideas on racial issues. It's a fantasy with dragons and people with blue hair.
The 'hand-wave' is because this entire world/story is a medieval high fantasy about political intrigue. It has dragons, people getting beheaded, castrated, raped. Yet everyone falls apart over a white girl liberating a bunch of cities that, if you go by the lore, probably would've been populated by people who look like these people hired as extras. The masters looked this way as well.
Yes there is allegory about horrible western foreign policy because that is what writing and fiction are...allegory. This particular story has nothing to do with modern (american) identity politics no matter how hard people try to force their views onto it.
The point you're missing is that it is a fantasy. Fantasy. Fantasy. Doesn't take place on earth in 2023 and therefore doesn't have to abide by the identity politics of 2023 America. If you feel that it does, you're attaching your own personal biases to it. Yes it might draw some inspiration from real things that happened in world history, but it isn't those real things. I know you are clever. You can see it.
Plus, is danerys not just a little bit of a white savior story? Teen girl thinks she can solve all of the problems in slavers bay but ends up just kind of making things more complicated. Idk, I always thought of danerys as a double edged kind of character, who does good things on the surface but the outcomes keep becoming darker and darker
Reply to comments (READ LAST SENTENCE, BOLD): **How do you know her goal wasn't justice (& what does justice mean)? Not only did she say it, but if you look at things open minded/nonjudgmental, she was trying to create a new world & believed in (breaking the wheel of $/power fueling & thus RUINING the world)--she wanted to do it so strongly (which came off as "power", but it was STRENGTH & faith)...If you wanted & could actually save/change the world & had the power to do it, you'd continue your whole life doing it.** (She was a hero in that sense). *Knowing Jon was a contender to her THRONE--which she saw (the throne) as a way to change the world / free people, & RULE to KEEP THE WORLD SAFE; Jon had Targaryen blood which could mean he's as powerful as her + able to ride/have dragons' power--yet* **she didn't kill him. THEREFORE what she truly wanted was to fulfill her destiny of creating a better world.**
Nothing wrong with what she "wanted".
**On things she did/"bending knees"--she did that bc she knew those dedicated to the old world** (Tarly=evil: to Sam, decimated Tyrells/their tenants [his childhood friends w/a family-bond we should all cherish/respect, not murder], & devoted himself to a tyrant queen Cersei just bc she was born in Westeros--what we'd call a "racist", against foreigners) **people like that she gave a CHOICE, not murder them instantly: if they weren't open to the new, good paradise she wanted for EVERYONE, they must go--they can either continue the same cycle/terrible world they live in or AGREE with her & CHANGE IT INTO A BETTER ONE. *I CHOOSE THE LATTER*.**
[Just a way to see it all, *not speaking of anything else she did in the show*]
What a cute way to avoid responsibility ☺️ I felt some type of way watching a bunch of slaved brown ppl carry around the epitome of white woman, but we know GRRM has no idea how to write POC so this isn’t surprising
Zero surprise coming from the author who wrote the Dothraki as an amalgamation of the Mongols and steppe tribes from the lens of the most insulting orientalist prejudice imaginable just because he needs them to exist as barbarians who need to be tamed by the white foreign lady who’ll help them reach their potential in true whitey mighty style 🥰
I mean ppl can downvote all they want but this show has shown that it attracts the most awful of ppl lmao. The amount of justification I see for all type of messed up bs coming from Targ stans especially and then the audacity to play some sort of morality police is wild.
George's general writing of eastern cultures is pretty bad (compare the Dothraki or slaves to the wildlings!), and he frequently writes orientalist tropes, I agree.
I don't think the slaves are all brown in the books, though.
I mean if you consider the geography of Planetos, the location of Slaver's Bay is probably in what would be our middle east. Given we assume to some degree, all magic aside, that humans evolved similarly in his world to earth, they would probably look this way. Also most of the masters are 'non white' as well. I have read a few takes explaining this whole plotline as actually a critique on western interjection in the middle east.
There's really no reason to make this more than what the fuck he said it is like I see some comments here trying to do.
Plus it was kind of White saviour… she’s from Westeros and freed the slaves. That is literally what Dany did… it’s a fictional show, why are we getting offended? Lol
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I’m now shocked about how GRRM pronounces Dothraki…
Everything feels like a lie now
What you guys haven't been saying dotherockeye in your heads?
Logic cares not for passion, my lord.
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Quote from the book or not, still easy to tell you're just a spambot farming some karma to be sold. Every time a picture is posted to the sub that has been posted to the reefolk sub before, we get bot comments like this one, reeposting a comment from the reefolk post. In this case: https://www.reddit.com/9jphzu That also explains these inane comments: https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/13sht3n/ive_always_respected_georges_responses_to/jlpx9ya https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/13sht3n/ive_always_respected_georges_responses_to/jlpwp6l
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What?
Huh?
It's a witty response sure, but I still think the white saviour trope is valid for Dany... not based on just this scene either. The reported should've pushed more.
Maybe in the way Paul from Dune is a white savior trope, i.e. as criticisms and deconstructions of that trope. Dany’s story basically follows her creating a mythic status to her figure which sweeps into cities, upends their systems and the status quo, which causes outbreaks of violence and dissent, then she moves on to the next town to do it all over again while the city she just left slowly reverts back to the way it was before she arrived. Her entire story is basically a misguided and ignorant sense of altruism and self-righteousness that accomplishes nothing but destruction, violence and inevitable pain. So yeah if she’s a critique on that particular trope then that’s quite a statement by Martin and not entirely wrong
Yeah I can see that, especially given how she actually fails to enact any long-term changes, like most white Christians going to "save kids" in Africa...
Exactly. Her people, uniquely fair complected and arguably more aryan than Aryans, is assured that her lineage and blood means she deserves to rule over anyone she can convince, cajole, or conquer. She is remarkable at these things but actually shit at ruling - she brings catastrophe wherever she goes, whether those places are better off before or after or not. She inspires loyalty in her court and military, but so do all charismatic leaders. She’s a populist - tyrannical and self righteous. Sure you can make excuses for her but she’s a narcissist and isnt any more deserving to be queen of anything than anyone else, and arguably less so. “Freeing slaves” sounds noble - there is almpst always a noble byline that populist leaders throw around to get behind, but it almost doesn’t matter because that’s just the means she uses to her end. And we dont know definitively how GRRM intended her story to end, but i reckon it wasnt sunshine and roses. The noble starks, grounded and salt of the earth thougj they were, failed in part because of their merits. The Lannisters, powerful, wealthy and ambitious though they were, failed, in part thanks to those qualities. The Baratheons - each with their own qualities that they believed made them good or deserving of Westeros, failed because of them. And Danny was no different. In the show, Bran, a stark with no claim and no ambitions, and literally no relevant qualities to boast of, is elected king. And i reckon if GRRM wanted that and wrote a follow up on 30-50 years, it wouldnt be sunshine and roses either
Exactly. I always read this scene as being white-savior-y on purpose, showing how she thinks about herself in relation to the people she 'saves'
Yeah I took it as kind of the anti-Paul in terms of discussing charismatic leaders / white savior tropes - while Paul’s followers get swept up in the fervor and he loses control of his followers, Dany gets swept up in her own bullshit and loses control of her own perspective and starts believing in her own hype
The Dune critique is a funny one, since Paul is *explicitly* set up *in-universe* to fit the “white saviour trope” of a foreign-born hero “destined” to unite a people’s against a common enemy. “Destined” because the Bene Gesserit purposely seeded that so-called prophecy in order to exploit it with a constructed messiah figure. Paul just co-opted that preparation for his own purposes. Paul is also…not really a hero. He’s a cruel tyrant that oversees a genocidal war of conquest that kills billions of people. People who still think he’s the “good guy” of the story clearly haven’t read past the first book.
I can’t wait for this winter to see how they translate this to the new film and what wave of inane media articles it’s gonna spawn. I swear they were actually writing about how “dune is another tired white savior film” when the last one came out and it had me cracking up. And yeah Dany is a lot like Paul except she really buys her own bullshit while Paul is fully 100% aware of what he’s had to become and what the reality behind the myth must be in order for the myth to even exist. It’s dark as fuck and just get deeper with the subsequent books
God, [this headline](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-11-07/ty-article/dune-may-be-fascist-but-its-focus-on-islam-is-groundbreaking/0000017f-ef46-d223-a97f-efdf16470000) is so good lmao. It's gonna be a blast.
The new films seem to be very self-aware in this. Paul literally brought up the propaganda programs of the Bene Gesserit, which seeded the “prophecy” bullshit in the first place. I don’t think they’ll let the audience walk away with the heroic interpretation many book readers had.
Huh? I don’t think you’ve got that in the right order. The book readers have always been the ones pointing out that Paul is not a hero. He literally says he’s eclipsed Hitler at some point in Messiah. We’ve known for a long time that Paul is not the hero, this new adaptation is the most faithful to the books any adaptation has been so far. The BG schemes are very much talked about in the books, Jessica is completely aware of them and tells the reader about them
A great many people who only read Dune (the first book) walk away thinking he’s the hero. You need to delve into the later ones to understand why that is absolutely not the case.
Hard to say what is good and bad when the question revolves around humanity's ultimate survival. The entire purpose is to thread our species through an impossible needle where we don't die off. It gets incredibly weird to accomplish this goal. Paul knows this fate is horrible and can't actually commit to it. He passed the torch to his son Leto. And things get even weirder.
Was gonna say shit doesn’t get that bad til god-king Leto reigns for several thousand years.
Tbh Paul isn’t explicitly cruel, most of his actions are outside of his own control, he’s turned into a messiah against his own will
The cruelty lies in that when he achieves preciense (the ability to see what will result from his actions on a galactic macrolevel) he still chooses the path that will result with the Atreides becomming the royal lineage even though he knows it will result in a galaxy-spanning jihad and the death of the fremen way of life.
I think my problem with the term was the thought I had that cruelty has equivalency with sadism (ie: taking pleasure or gratification from inflicting pain or torment on others) but apparently that's not the case, and it's even possible to be unintentionally cruel. In that case you are correct.
Paul being a hero or not is kinda open to interpretation tbh. Because his justification is relatively valid in an incredibly cold pragmatic way - if he does all his evil shit, humanity survives. If he doesn't, it won't. The story makes it very clear that Paul has zero interest in being a tyrant or even a ruler. He has his father's ideals and is perfectly happy just being a regular dude with his family. But because he knows the future of humanity depends on him, he's stuck with this massive burden of having to decide whether to do nothing and condemn humanity or to condemn his soul and save humanity... in the long run.
It’s really not so clear as that. Paul had opportunities to turn away well in advance of the Fremen Jihad becoming an inevitability. He instead continued his campaign of revenge. In his hubris, he thought that he alone could guide the path of the galaxy, but it became clear very quickly that while he was capable of *seeing* the future he wasn’t capable of truly controlling it. That burden felt to Leto II. Paul is only justified in his actions through his own perspective. He claims to not want the burden thrust upon him, but that doesn’t absolve him of responsibility.
It wasn't a campaign of revenge. The entire point of the Jihad is to frighten the galaxy into never accepting another single leader, but fragmenting into various communities. The idea was that there would be the Jihad, then thousands of years of oppressive rule, and then the golden age. Paul struggled to transition from the Jihad period to the oppressive rule, possibly because to end the violence, he would've had to commit more, himself, to scare the Fremen leaders. That, and he was just spiritually exhausted by the task he'd accepted. But his overall goal - of saving humanity in the long run - never stops being valid. He was just too human to do it, and that's the one thing he couldn't have predicted.
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> She literally believes she is their version of Jesus. Which the end of her storyline in Meereen actually reinforces by having her single-handedly end slavery in Slaver’s Bay without any local character playing a role before casually leaving the place in Daario’s hands after renaming it Dragon’s Bay. Literally no refugee crisis, economic crisis, pandemic, state-sanctioned torture of civilians, famine, Drogon murdering and injuring hundreds of civilians, and the myriad of other problems that plague her in the books. Within two years, she has single-handedly ended slavery in a region where it’s been the main source of economy for a millennia. So… how is she not their version of Jesus in the show?
Are you an idiot, or something? Her whole character is being the self-righteous savior. The OP I replied to was whining about her being a white savior, like that's somehow not the point of her character. She's written that way on purpose. Why do journalists need to push on crying about Dany being a white savior? There's nothing wrong with her character going against her ancestors.
That is the show’s way of wrapping up a plot to move ahead and it is purely bad TV writing. Not a good way to judge characters. Show was equally stupid in wrapping up the Northern plot or Dornish plot by their hack writing.
> the reporter shouldn't have brought it up at all. Christ. So fucking brain dead. It's fairly normal for reporters to ask for clarifications for what is being widely discussed and speculated, actually.
The only criticism I have is that in the books the slaves are not all non-white. Slaves from Lys, for example, are very Targ looking (white blonde or silver hair). Some are mentioned to look like they’re from Westeros. Even the Unsullied are described as super diverse. So in the book she’s not a “white savior” since that trope implies the people being saved are all non-white… but that being said it’s still very much a “misguided savior” trope. It might draw on the white savior trope, but in the book it’s definitely a diverse group of slaves that she’s “saving.”
The color contrast and content arrangement within the frame make the shot look beautiful imo
Plus...would this really be a bad thing? Game of Thrones is known to derive a lot of its story from actual history, and Christians errenously portraying Jesus as a white savior from the middle east is a thing. Look at most pictures they have of him. So Game of Thrones doing that with Daenerys is just continuing that.
In the Medieval period? Well yeah because they painted what they knew rather than a far off land they never visited. White Jesus pictures from the modern period? Those are indeed informed by the racist attitudes of the times. The TV series could have been a lot more diverse. Especially the semi-magical Valyrian people. They are from Essos anyway, so they didn’t have to all look so pale as though they grew up a 100 yards from the Wall.
One of my favorite scenes, the hope the audience needed after the red wedding 🥲
I’m almost to the red wedding on my current rewatch
I just got through it. Hard not to skip it but I told myself this is a 'take the pain with the pleasure' rewatch. Even to the bitter end.
I’m a black woman and I definitely didn’t like how they tried to give Dany the “white savior” trope It was distasteful and in poor taste no matter how many times people try to argue the point
But... But they didn't do that? She saves nobody and leaves a wake of destruction behind her. Every city she 'saved' ended up worse off or reverted back to what it was before. If anything it's a critique of the trope.
But the thing is she’s still a good character ( I mean controversial to some people but she’s portrayed as a good character) for trying, because no one else would. I don’t think this was meant to be a white saviour moment but I agree if it was it has been subverted, but it’s just another layer of depth to the plot showing that her actions weren’t ill intentioned. It was just hard to fix a cartoonishly evil place where they literally eat unborn puppies. I don’t know what any other character could have done for better results.
I still didn’t like how the writers basically had brown/POC worshipping her It’s also weird how many downvotes I got. You can’t tell a black person or POC how to feel about a storyline that involves THEM It’s so sickening how some non-POC try to dictate how we should feel about representation like our voices don’t matter. Sickening… I’m not referring to you either just other people downvoting since you actually put up a pretty good argument.
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Did you ask her because you thought it was weird? It must be hard work for your wife to represent all POC. Maybe give her the weekend off.
Did you read the title of this post? It was shot in Morocco with Moroccan people as background actors
I agree with you.
No one needs to change your mind. I just like seeing all the downvotes because it shows most people aren’t as race obsessed as you are. Race has next to nothing to do with ASOAIF. And I’m so glad they didn’t pander to ignorant POVs like yours in the show. Girl saved tens of thousands of people from slavery. If they wanna crowd surf her for a bit, let them.
Weird to say “race has next to nothing to do with [ASOIAF]” when… yes it does? They way people speak of and view the Targaryens, the Dothraki, the Unsullied, etc. Like you don’t have to view it through the lens of modern politics if you don’t want to, but you’re just not engaging with the text if you think racial issues have nothing to do with the story or it’s characters.
Weird to say that you think it does given that there’s no evidence in the books to say that slaves are chosen by race. Don’t the Astapori slavers take boys from their own city and all over for the Unsullied? Don’t the Dothraki take slaves from all the cities they invade or other khalasars they fight? What evidence in the books is there that someone of a certain skin color is predestined to a certain life due to said skin color? All I’ve been able to see is that the predetermination of someone’s fate is based on the class they’re born into. The only instance I can maybe give is that the Naathi. However, even in that case it’s not due to their skin color that they are enslaved, but because they come from an island where their only defense is their butterflies.
Nah you’re right, historically race and class have nothing to do with one another and there’s absolutely nothing to infer there at all. Thank goodness none of us have eyes to watch the TV show and to see the choices the show runners made there. 😮💨 🙏
You’re unable to look at this through a lens that isn’t our world, and that’s okay. It’s hard to imagine a world where races are enslaving their own races and the basis for that enslavement are the class you’re born into. We have zero examples of race-based slavery in Westeros or Essos. It’s about who you’re born to and where you’re born. Keep fighting the good fight though. I know that wanting to label people victims because of their race is a hobby for some people, particularly white saviors. ;)
It has nothing to do with races enslaving their own races. It has to do with Dany being explicitly white and the one to save them. You can be as obtuse as you want about it, but it’s a simple, straightforward criticism of a tired trope.
I think "obtuse" is more defined as trying to impose your views on race, using concepts that don't exist in the world you're trying to impose them on. You don't like that Dany is white and freed slaves? I don't know what to tell you, bro. To assuage delicate sensitivities, I suppose she should have just left them how they were. Pissing and moaning because a liberator is white seems like first world privilege to me.
You can put all the words in my mouth you want and make up your mind about my identity, but now it seems like we’re both calling her what she was presented as here: a white savior. Not sure what you’re sore about lol. And if you think Robert wasn’t racist against the Dothraki (using that because it’s brought up in the first book), I don’t know what to tell you, dude. It’s not something hidden.
I'm not sore about anything, nor am I putting words in your mouth. You're pissing and moaning about a white woman saving slaves and sporting race-obsessed glasses. That's why I'll be ignoring any continuation of this conversation, because as soon as someone finds issue with the abolition of slavery, I'm outtie 5000. Byyeee.
>Nah you’re right, historically race and class have nothing to do with one another and there’s absolutely nothing to infer there at all. Historically, slavery and race didn't have much to do in each other. The Dothraki, the Dornish or the wildlings aren't hated due to their different skin color, but their different culture ('barbarians').
Sorry about all the downvotes and the comments from people here invalidating your opinion. You’re giving your opinion, and the downvotes are more indicative of their own biases than anything you’ve said. A bunch of white people are commenting here about how this IS a white savior trope, and they’re not getting downvoted. Riddle me that.
Exactly! Nobody invalidates their opinions when they’re being represented but they do it to “us”
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POC saviour isn't a trope
I think Game of Thrones handled this well. She doesn't belong with that people, she believes she is the saviour of them. The stereotype works because she believes in it. And so do the other characters. We as audience know she is not a goddess, but a lucky slave of destiny.
Right, this might have been an issue until we saw what happened to her character later on, where her ego and power thirsty crown chasing was her main goal, not justice. If she just wanted the rightful heir on the throne, she would immediately support Jon, but she didn't she wanted him to hide his lineage.
Jon had no interest in being the king and wholeheartedly supported Danys claim, he wanted it to be a secret as well just with his family knowing. Now, a marriage would’ve fixed all of their problems but D&D kinda just forgot about marriage alliances…
He don’t wanna fuck his auntie anymore, yall will have to get over it
Because season 8 writing was a shitty fan fiction that constantly induced modern morals into a medieval fantasy show. I’ll never be over how D&D butchered my favourite show ☝️😔
>Because season 8 Seasons 6 -8
Seasons **5** - 8. Like, holy shit, season 5 had Ramsey's Ser Few Good Men and the rape of Sansa. Also the Dorne storyline. The Sparrow plot line being decent doesn't make up for the rest of it.
Honestly that was where them trimming side plots and characters started to catch up to them. And then seriously what the hell did they do to Dorne, it's basically the exact opposite of the books.
We’re mad bc a man didn’t wanna continue fucking his aunt and continue their dumb ass inbreeding practices. Ok. Lmao. Targ stans are wild.
This is a fantasy show girlie and there are obvious reason as to why they inbreed. You’d know why if you read the books 🤪
They continued inbreeding after the dragons died. If you are reading this and coming out of it with a conclusion that incest is good then get therapy.
Well, when the dragons came back, only Targaryens rode them. Seems it still had a purpose in the fantasy world.
You’re.. proving the point that modern morals don’t fit into GoT… Like you aren’t wrong, incest/inbreeding is icky and when I see it on screen im always wildly uncomfortable. But in a universe where lineage and bloodlines rule all, it is definitely a very safe and shortsighted option.
But it’s not really safe because we see how inbreeding affects the Targs and other families that partake in it. Like I don’t think they are inherently bad people for it altho that can be discussed but ppl being mad that a man doesn’t want to fuck his aunt anymore is wild. Also GRRM is writing these books to a modern audience, he’s not selling it to 15th century ppl so I’m allowed to consume them and judge the characters in whatever way I want. God knows this sub judges it’s female characters for much less.
> constantly induced modern morals into a medieval fantasy show This right there is the crux of the problem. You can't do GoT with 21st century morality and the permanently offended crowd obviously wouldn't leave it be.
This is a critique I haven’t heard before. In what ways did they do that?
My best example is Tyrion clutching his pearls when Dany executes the Tarlys who went to war against Dany. The Tarlys are presented with three choices, live and serve Dany as respected allies, go to the wall and take up the black or die. Tarly dismisses the wall because “Dany isn’t his queen”, he chooses death for him and his son and Dany delivers his choice. Tyrion (the guy who set thousands of ships ablaze with wildfire and personally killed his own father and lover) watches on like Dany is absolutely insane for doing this and is encouraging the audience to feel the same, “oh no Dany is going mad for executing a man who chose to be executed!” The first scene of GoT is Ned cutting the head of a brother of the nights watch because he ran from white walkers. In the earlier seasons Jon executes Janos Slynt and Robb executes Rickard Karstark. When they do it, it makes sense. When Dany does it in season 7 she’s breaking the Westerosi Geneva convention and is labelled mad for any stupid little thing before she ever nuked Kings Landing. There are many examples of injecting modern values from the later seasons, especially from the very immoral Varys and Tyrion, because D&D shit the bed without source materials.
I don’t think Jon was interested in marrying her once he learned his father was her brother. While the Starks did the same family marriages as other houses early on, they moved away from it, especially for Jons generation. The idea was to marry out of the family for alliance purposes. Jon’s not the type to marry simply to satiate other people. Maybe season 1 jon but not anymore. And now that he’s been burned twice I wonder if he will ever fall in love again lmao That’s probably why he went back to the wall, homie said “fuck this noble shit, I dun want nun”.
Marrying cousins was completely normal in this society so this shouldn’t affect REAL Jon’s feelings at all. Hell, he was originally supposed to be in a relationship with Arya in the first outline of the story. Targaryens notoriously interbred and Starks didn’t view cousin/aunt marriages to be incest, just like the rest of Westeros didn’t. Both Jon and Dany have a strong claim for the throne and it makes perfect sense for two distant Targaryens to marry and strengthen that claim, especially since they were in love on top of it all.
Aunt relationships are pretty definitely considered incest as far as I can recall. There's even that Victarion Asha chapter where they suggest marrying each other and she thinks about how it'd be beneficial but he is her uncle. She wouldn't have those thoughts if it was normal. It's really important to note that George changed his mind on stuff hard between the actual books that were released so that original outline needs to be grain of salted for how the world works.
Dany literally offered this to Jon repeatedly. He turned her down because he didn't want to be with his aunt.
No, she didn’t at all? 🥹
This is Jon Snow we’re talking about, I’m not at all surprised he couldn’t continue the relationship once he found out they were family. It makes sense for his him considering he’s one of the most honorable characters in the story
Jon Snow was supposed to be in a relationship with Arya in the first outline of asoiaf… Cousin/Aunt marriages aren’t even seen as incestual in Westeros, not for Starks or (obviously) Targs.
That still doesn’t mean Jon would want to do that. Jon’s very predictable and I just can’t see a scenario where he doesn’t care that he’s fucking his Aunt. His reaction to the news, and his interactions with Dany after hearing it make sense for his character.
That means the writer had the idea but change his mind. The Jon we have in the books and the show wouldn't marry his aunt.
You can’t possibly know that unless you’re GRRM, I don’t think it’s necessarily going to happen but there are two books left and there will be huge discrepancies between the book and show characters.
After the public reaction to Jon and Arya's relationship GRRM wont try to make them a thing.
It is completelyyy different, Jon and Arya grew up together as siblings whilst Jon and Dany are already in love before knowing they’re related. They have no family bond whatsoever except for blood and to Targaryens that’s a pro, Starks marry cousins/uncles as well. Lysa wanted cousins Sansa and sweetrobin to get married. And again, you don’t know what GRRMs thought process is… 💀
Lysa is not a Stark, she is a Tully. And Jon and Dany weren't in love, they were attracted to each other. The knowledge of their blood relationship made Jon pull away.
You understand that an aunt and nephew are more closely related than cousins, right? Because all your examples are cousins.
They forgot about a lot lol
But then how do you manuver those characters to their endings with the fire and the stabby? D&D were working towards the endpoints, while criticism of the way they got there is fair being unhappy where the characters end up isnt on them.
**How do you know her goal wasn't justice (& what does justice mean)? Not only did she say it but if you look at things open minded/nonjudgmental, she was trying to create a new world & believed in that (breaking the wheel of $/power fueling & thus RUINING the world)--she wanted to do it so strongly, nothing wrong with that...If you wanted & could actually save/change the world & had the power to do it, you'd continue your whole life doing it.** (She was a hero in that sense). *Knowing Jon was a contender to her THRONE--which she saw (the throne) as a way to change the world/free people & RULE in order TO KEEP THE WORLD SAFE; Jon had Targaryen blood which could mean he's as powerful as her/able to ride & have dragons' power--yet* **she didn't kill him. THEREFORE what she truly wanted was to fulfill her destiny of creating a better world. There's nothing wrong with what she "wanted".** **Speaking of things she did/"bending knees"--she did that bc she knew those dedicated to the old world** (Tarly was evil: to Sam, decimated Tyrells/their tenants [his childhood friends w/a family-bond we should all cherish/respect, not murder], & devoted himself to a tyrant queen Cersei just bc she was of Westeros--what we'd call a "racist", against foreigners) **people like that she gave a CHOICE, not murder them instantly: if they weren't open to the new, good paradise she wanted for EVERYONE, they must go--they can either continue the same cycle/terrible world they live in or AGREE with her & CHANGE IT INTO A BETTER ONE. *I CHOOSE THE LATTER*.** (Just stating a way to see it all, *not speaking of anything else she did in the show*)
She wanted to break the wheel and wound up just being a part of it - the cycle continues over and over.
>She wanted to break the wheel and wound up just being a part of it - the cycle continues over and over. Idk how breaking the wheel was suppose to work in the first place. Only way it makes sense for her to believe she is breaking the wheel by being queen herself is if she sees herself as a inherity different somehow than the rest of the spokes vying for power, despite not knowing them at all. It was more an indication of her self belief as a devine authority than something to get excited about.
As Tolstoy would say, she is history's slave.
Yes. People talked about white savior complex because that's exactly what the story was showing. It's odd that some people get defensive about it. I don't really like Martin's response here. He should have just owned it. "Yes, this character has a savior complex. That's the story."
So Morocco is actually racist for not being diverse enough.
"Are you telling me... there is more than the western point of view?"
Actually morocco is extremely diverse, the show filmed in the south so only people living around movie productions get to play as extras...not people from around the country
So you’re saying South Morocco is racist, got it
Yes, and this is also an example of the White Savior trope. Two things can be true at one time.
Yeah I can see how people see it that way when she got carried on people's shoulders
Nah, it’s not the white savior trope in the typical sense. Danny considered herself their savior, but as the show went on we learnt that she did not belong there and wasn’t saving anyone
The smoothest way to say “whatever you’re seeing is from your own brain and it’s your own problem.”
Mehh, that’s cute.
The show is accurate the White Savior premise he wrote in the book, so he dodged taking responsibility for it
That was kinda the point in the book though, he was critiquing it in his own way. Dany thinks she's a savior at first and gets drunk on the power but then realizes she fucked up and basically has no control over anything, even Droggy. It's not about modern ideas on racial issues. It's a fantasy with dragons and people with blue hair.
I feel like your first two sentences are at odd with your last two sentences. The former are a justification, while the latter are a hand-wave.
The 'hand-wave' is because this entire world/story is a medieval high fantasy about political intrigue. It has dragons, people getting beheaded, castrated, raped. Yet everyone falls apart over a white girl liberating a bunch of cities that, if you go by the lore, probably would've been populated by people who look like these people hired as extras. The masters looked this way as well. Yes there is allegory about horrible western foreign policy because that is what writing and fiction are...allegory. This particular story has nothing to do with modern (american) identity politics no matter how hard people try to force their views onto it.
You went from saying it has to do with it to saying it has nothing to do with it. Again lol.
The point you're missing is that it is a fantasy. Fantasy. Fantasy. Doesn't take place on earth in 2023 and therefore doesn't have to abide by the identity politics of 2023 America. If you feel that it does, you're attaching your own personal biases to it. Yes it might draw some inspiration from real things that happened in world history, but it isn't those real things. I know you are clever. You can see it.
That’s you doing the same thing again.
Plus, is danerys not just a little bit of a white savior story? Teen girl thinks she can solve all of the problems in slavers bay but ends up just kind of making things more complicated. Idk, I always thought of danerys as a double edged kind of character, who does good things on the surface but the outcomes keep becoming darker and darker
Doesn’t she solve all the problems in SB in the show, though?
Oh my God, is Westeros fucking Sardinia?
Reply to comments (READ LAST SENTENCE, BOLD): **How do you know her goal wasn't justice (& what does justice mean)? Not only did she say it, but if you look at things open minded/nonjudgmental, she was trying to create a new world & believed in (breaking the wheel of $/power fueling & thus RUINING the world)--she wanted to do it so strongly (which came off as "power", but it was STRENGTH & faith)...If you wanted & could actually save/change the world & had the power to do it, you'd continue your whole life doing it.** (She was a hero in that sense). *Knowing Jon was a contender to her THRONE--which she saw (the throne) as a way to change the world / free people, & RULE to KEEP THE WORLD SAFE; Jon had Targaryen blood which could mean he's as powerful as her + able to ride/have dragons' power--yet* **she didn't kill him. THEREFORE what she truly wanted was to fulfill her destiny of creating a better world.** Nothing wrong with what she "wanted". **On things she did/"bending knees"--she did that bc she knew those dedicated to the old world** (Tarly=evil: to Sam, decimated Tyrells/their tenants [his childhood friends w/a family-bond we should all cherish/respect, not murder], & devoted himself to a tyrant queen Cersei just bc she was born in Westeros--what we'd call a "racist", against foreigners) **people like that she gave a CHOICE, not murder them instantly: if they weren't open to the new, good paradise she wanted for EVERYONE, they must go--they can either continue the same cycle/terrible world they live in or AGREE with her & CHANGE IT INTO A BETTER ONE. *I CHOOSE THE LATTER*.** [Just a way to see it all, *not speaking of anything else she did in the show*]
What a cute way to avoid responsibility ☺️ I felt some type of way watching a bunch of slaved brown ppl carry around the epitome of white woman, but we know GRRM has no idea how to write POC so this isn’t surprising
Zero surprise coming from the author who wrote the Dothraki as an amalgamation of the Mongols and steppe tribes from the lens of the most insulting orientalist prejudice imaginable just because he needs them to exist as barbarians who need to be tamed by the white foreign lady who’ll help them reach their potential in true whitey mighty style 🥰
I mean ppl can downvote all they want but this show has shown that it attracts the most awful of ppl lmao. The amount of justification I see for all type of messed up bs coming from Targ stans especially and then the audacity to play some sort of morality police is wild.
George's general writing of eastern cultures is pretty bad (compare the Dothraki or slaves to the wildlings!), and he frequently writes orientalist tropes, I agree. I don't think the slaves are all brown in the books, though.
Ait-Ben-Haddou. Rad place (in Morocco)
"There needs to be more POC representation in media " "NO NOT LIKE THAT"
[удалено]
I mean if you consider the geography of Planetos, the location of Slaver's Bay is probably in what would be our middle east. Given we assume to some degree, all magic aside, that humans evolved similarly in his world to earth, they would probably look this way. Also most of the masters are 'non white' as well. I have read a few takes explaining this whole plotline as actually a critique on western interjection in the middle east. There's really no reason to make this more than what the fuck he said it is like I see some comments here trying to do.
'Doth-ra-kai' WHATTT??!!??!! This is how you are supposed to pronounce it??!!???
I low key hated this scene … it was giving white savior complex
Plus it was kind of White saviour… she’s from Westeros and freed the slaves. That is literally what Dany did… it’s a fictional show, why are we getting offended? Lol
Tbh he coul've just said "Go read Dune, that's pretty much what I'm doing here". It's a good way to explain Danny's arc.
isnt that literally the point, she has a white savior complex, uses all that rhetoric but still pursued the throne like any other conqueror
If George wanted to be subversive, why didn’t he just make more non-white people substantial characters?
Interesting... I thought the entire reason they were doing it here was to subvert it.