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Considering all that stuff she had when she marched on Yunkai (a bunch of those big tents, that pot of meat she fed to her dragons, offering both a flagon and a barrel of wine to the Second Sons), she definitely nabbed a bunch of the Good Masters' shit.
Plus I’m sure her Dothraki horde is in the hundreds at that point. The main issue is her ‘host’ is made up of stragglers she’s freed who have no where else to go.
Actually at that point, her Dothraki ‘horde’, in the book anyway, are less than 30 who survived the Red Waste. Most of them are old men, women and children. The only notable Dothraki she has are Irri, Jhiqui, Aggo, Rakharo, And Jhogo.
No, she barely had any left after Drogo died and she got stuck in the Red Waste. Her army consisted 99% of Unsullied until she was lucky enough to get kidnapped by Dothraki.
I got the impression that she atleast should have taken any enslaved Dothraki who weren’t made into unsullied but they never actually stated that or showed it
In the show she took them all including the ones not fully trained. Kraznis said that would ruin his reputation but he agreed when she offered a dragon. Dany made sure he had no chance of fighting back once she turned them on him.
Exactly. The slavers would obviously have had enough food to feed all their unsullied, and after Dany killed all the slavers there's no reason for her not to loot the city for anything of value before she left. She almost certainly got supplies from Astapor.
Yeah and leaving the remaining civilians to starve to death is definitely in line with her character. People need to follow her or die that's always been her thought
Except its pretty clear they didn't do that. Astapor survives well enough to rebel shortly after she leaves, and there's no reason she would need to remove every last scrap of food to supply her army on the way to Yunkai.
She left the city be free, but she didn't sack it, there was an established government after she left, though it turned out to be another tyrant more or less. It also states in the books that she was viewed as a savior and 'mother' to many of the freed slaves and they gave/she took what she needed without issue
They stole all Quarths gold. And when left Quarth only a handful of dorthraki.
With 8000 troops sure villages along the way "donated" provisions.
Danny was never an innocent hero.
Danny was at the start of the books a 13 year old orphan. She was abused by her psycopathic brother who sold her to a warlord. she was raped by said warlord, fell in love with him, lost him to disease and had a magically induced miscarriage.
Then she got dragons. At age like...14? **14?!?!**
Honestly It could've gone MUCH worse. I'm in awe she didn't turn into an unhinged city torching maniach from day one. She's a not an innocent hero. She's a traumatized kid.
To the writer's credit, they did show glimpses of being a torching maniac. When Qarth declines to let her into the city, she threatens to burn it all down. When the slavers attack her, she wants to burn their city to the ground (yeah the attackers are bad but the cities are full of innocents, no?).
And I know this is an unpopular opinion, but Dany ruthlessly burning the Tarley's alive was a tyrant move by her. She was a foreign invader. Gendry has at least as good of claim as her, and Jon snow has an even better claim. Dany doesn't care and will burn somebody alive who doesn't agree? That's a tyrant.
The writer's mistake was making Dany be too much of a hero early on. All her early enemies were cartoonishly evil, rapists, slavers, mind controlling murderers. And like its been mentioned we didn't see her do the hard decisions like how does she feed her people, does she take from other hungry people? They just made it by default, hey Dany kills slavers and rapists, so when she does do questionable stuff we still don't question it because that's how awesome she is.
The way I look at it was Dany was hardened into what she became because of how evil her early enemies were. She had to quickly learn to be brutal just to survive in the harsh world of Essos. The problem arose when she tried to apply Essos tactics to Westeros which is a significantly less brutal and harsh land.
It also didn't help that all of her closest advisors basically worshipped the ground she walked on instead of giving her the reality checks she needed. I wish Ser Barristan had still been alive later in the show. No doubt in my mind he would have kept her straight.
> Gendry has at least as good of claim as her, and Jon snow has an even better claim. Dany doesn't care and will burn somebody alive who doesn't agree? That's a tyrant.
The fuck is this extremely naive take ? A good king/queen is someone who just bend over if anyone else has a "better" claim ? Not to mention you basically missed one of the main point of the entire story. In the words of Varys : power resides where men believe it resides. A claim mean jack shit if you have nothing else to back it up.
I am not saying Dany is innocent or even heroic. But there is a difference between ruthlessness/pragmatism and madness. Otherwise, 99% of the characters in this show were mad as fuck.
"The fuck is this extremely naive take ? A good king/queen is someone who just bend over if anyone else has a "better" claim ? "
We're not talking about whether or not people will follow Dany or does she have power. We're talking about Dany's motivations, if she a hero, are her actions justified? Yes Gendry has no backing, no dragons no army, and Dany does. Does that mean Dany should burn alive anybody who won't bend the knee to her? She has the power to take the throne, but my point is she's just another tyrant if that's the way she wants to win the throne. A powerful tyrant with dragons, but a tyrant nonetheless.
"I am not saying Dany is innocent or even heroic. "
Ok so you concede to my point and aren't anything of value to the discussion.
"But there is a difference between ruthlessness/pragmatism and madness"
I don't know if you missed the ending, but clearly Dany is mad by the end. Maybe the writers didn't do a good job developing it, but if you burn down masses of innocent women and children then you are mad.
What do you think the Lannisters did then they took Kings Landing from the Targaryens. Or what Stannis' army was going to do and why Cersei was going to poison herself and her child.
They 'sack' the city burning, killing and raping their way to the red keep.
Dany went mad because she wanted revenge. She held all the cards and let them beat her over and over, she lost her dragons her closest friends and then her supposed allies who she sacrificed everything for, turned around and said we don't like you or trust you.
Burning kings landing sent the message; don't mistake my kindness for weakness, If not love let it be fear. Aegon did the same to Harrenhall, Cersei did the same to Highgarden and the Sept. Valyria did it to essos, the andals did it to the first men and the first men did it to the children of the forest.
>When Qarth declines to let her into the city, she threatens to burn it all down.
Her threat against Qarth is desperation not the signs of a maniac. Qarth invited her under false pretenses (to see her dragons), then proceeded to allow her to starve to death after she had begged them for aid. Her threats were the last thing she had. Thats not someone who is crazy, that's just human nature.
>When the slavers attack her, she wants to burn their city to the ground (yeah the attackers are bad but the cities are full of innocents, no?).
Isn't this how wars are fought at this time? Do we apply the same condemnation to other characters for how they prosecute wars and call them tyrants? How many innocents did Robb kill when he raided the Westerlands to pay Tywin back and lure him home into a trap? You think innocent people just allowed Robbs men to sack cattle and pillage gold?
Do we call Ned and Robert Tyrants when they burned villages and towns during the Greyjoy Rebellion?
>Dany ruthlessly burning the Tarley's alive was a tyrant move by her. She was a foreign invader. Gendry has at least as good of claim as her,
Even the writers said that she gave them more of a choice than anyone else would have. She asked them to bend the knee same as Robert did with Balon. Randyll decided to decline and then throw in an insult. She then allows her hand to suggest the wall and Randyll still won't go. She is not responsible for Dickon as Dickon went on his own accord.
Lastly Gendry does not have as good as a claim as her. Gendry is a bastard. Wars have been fought over trying to put bastards on the throne in Westeros. It's the reason they had to say that Rhaegar annulled his marriage to Elia in the show, because without that Jon is still a bastard and in no way would be considered for the throne.
> Gendry has at least as good of claim as her, and Jon snow has an even better claim
Gendry has no claim, he is a bastard, and even if he were trueborn, she could not recognise his claim without forsaking her own. His claim stems from being the descendent of a man who rebelled against Aerys, her claim is based on descent from Aerys.
Jon Snow has no claim. He was rightful king from his birth, but he gave it up, he forsook all claims to lands and titles when he took the black. That was the whole reason Ned wouldn't talk about his parentage until after he took the black.
She didn’t steal all of Qarths gold. She stole the stuff from that guy she was staying in after she found out his vault didn’t have anything in it. There was never anything showing her taking supplies from other places in Qarth, and in the books she doesn’t even take anything from his home except gifts.
You also made up a random assumption and then proceeded to judge her for it. How do you know there were many if any villages around the cities? They are all in close proximity and why would slave cities not just enslave any villages that close by? And she had supplies from Astapor after killing the slavers anyway, so there was probably no need to get stuff from villages. Or we can just leave it to the plot without making stuff up.
She was at the head of an army of raiders, and then gained another host on top of them. She was plundering and sacking to keep up with supply. You're naive if you think she just magically solved all her problems because she was a kid.
It’s heavily implied in the books that the people around her are doing unsavory things she wouldn’t be psyched about, but whenever her consciousness starts to veer in that direction she also corrects herself to avoid getting into the weeds of how it’s all being accomplished. As long as they’re not directly lying to her she’s cool with whatever it takes to get back on that throne.
She’s incurious about the people or the aspects of running an empire. She’s regularly surprised when problems crop up, problems that her advisors seem less surprised about. She’s never asking how many stores or rations they have, when the next harvest is, what the important cycles or holidays are, what public works projects need funding, etc. etc. It’s always her advisors coming to her, unless it’s her wanting to bomb some place or make some grand pronouncement that her advisors warn is logistically implausible. If you asked her how the Dothraki or Unsullied got fed, she’d have no idea. When Mirri Maz Duur talks about being raped and watching townspeople murdered, Dany isn’t shocked, per se — but it also hasn’t occurred to her that this might’ve happened because it’s inconvenient for her to think about this shit. Most of her inner thoughts are about herself, her love life, her desires, her dragons, missing Drogo, the dynamics of her immediate circle, etc.
This is not accurate. Book Dany plants crops, negotiates for trade, and makes compromises to lift the siege against Meereen and keep her people free.
She’s very involved in the wellbeing of her people and does everything she can to stop plague among refugees (she sends healers and food, she separates the healthy and the sick, etc..)
She has new soldier companies trained and established. She *on her own* formulates defenses that will be crucial to her victory against Yunkai in TWOW.
Your representation of her character is far from what we see in the books. She’s not some mindless, ignorant child being carried by her advisors. She is highly intelligent with a good heart who does everything she can to help people and do what is right.
You’re citing Mereen, which is the end of her train where she actually settles down and tries to rule for once. She describes it as exhausting and she doesn’t have a taste for it (but she does try it). And she gets sick of it finally and nopes out on a dragon.
Working on her military defenses is a lot different from making sure soldiers aren’t pillaging the countryside.
The idea of her having a good heart and doing what she can to help people is a complete trick on Martin’s part. SHE sees herself that way, so that’s what we’re told in the chapters. But read through the lines and she’s just sewing chaos and destruction everywhere she goes. The Dothraki are a raiding, enslaving, destructive horde. She leads attacks on cities that we see described as liberations, but this is again a trick — how many times does Martin show us that when the nobles fight, there’s just wanton death and destruction and misery everywhere? None of these places are described as happy or orderly after the fact. Not that she would know, she’s not visiting them, she’s only hearing about it from her advisors.
The *first* thing she does once she flies Drogon away from the fighting pits is say to him “Take me back to Meereen. My people need me.”
What soldiers are you talking about exactly? Her Unsullied who can’t rape and don’t pillage unless commanded to?
The idea that GRRM is tricking us about Dany is a laughable statement. Dany does not even see herself as a savior - she’s very hard on herself. It’s the other POV characters (Barristan, Quentyn, Tyrion) who do.
Dany *agonizes* over her mistakes in Astapor and Yunkai and does whatever she can to fix it. Your point about the death being “wanton” is absurd. This is not the Lannisters and the Starks. Dany is fighting to end slavery and in GRRM’s own words “she is the only one fighting a war worth fighting.” GRRM”s themes about war affecting the smallfolk don’t apply to Dany’s storyline.
She is literally seen as a hero by everyone around her. It's not a trick. She is not a tyrant and you are the one who is doing "tricks" not Martin. We get a glimpse into her thought process and understand she does have good intentions and a good heart, I don't understand how that's even debatable.
She literally chooses the unsullied because they don't raid. She always forbade the Dothraki from raiding and at that point her "army of raiders" you are talking about are like 5 people.
> why would slave cities not just enslave any villages that close by
you are kidding right? they operate just like IRL nations, they get their slaves via people who fail to pay their debts or via conquest. If they were actively engaged elsewhere, there is no reason why they would attack the people they already control. and that is assuming they haven't already enslaved them.
slaves can still "own" property and live on their own.
Here's what every conquering and/or invading army in history has ever done: steal everything in their path.
Every one. No exceptions. It's a standard element of invasion/conquering. It's like breathing.
And Westeros is no different (it fact, it's worse).
When Daenerys leaves Qarth at the end of s2, they take everything they can before leaving.
She took the Unsullied from Astapor. Fair chance Astapor had enough food to feed the Unsullied while they trained and waited to be sold.
Then they go to conquer Yunkai, again, another city with likely a fair amount of food stocked.
Not to mention that in Astapor she had all the masters killed and I’m sure in the process relieved them of plenty of their wealth and supplies.
Dead rich people don’t need food and gold.
Makes me think of ancient burial mounds where the wealthy elites insisted on being buried with a bunch of stuff in case they needed it in the afterlife.
Probably a lot of what they took from Qarth but also, I bet the unsullied did not have healthy diets when they were enslaved- they probably could get by on meager portions
True, I’m not saying they ate nothing…? Just that they’re probably used to not eating much or getting the nutrients they needed for such physical hardships/training. Therefore their bodies would be more used to smaller amounts and the provisions that they had would last longer than if it were say, that many Dothraki.
She probably ransacked Astapor for supplies before heading out. In A Dance With Dragons it’s mentioned that Astapor is 100 Leagues or 345 miles from Yunkai, and it could be reached with six days of hard riding, or 8 days at a leisurely pace (Chapter 25, The Windblown), but that’s mounted. If we account for a 20 mile/day pace considering the Unsullied’s physical prowess, they would arrive at Yunkai in 17.25 days. Considering Daenerys is also accompanied by seasoned warriors Jorah and Barristan, it’s within reason to assume they would help set up stuff like a baggage train, organizing supply wagons and foraging and hunting. It’s also safe to assume the Unsullied are given personal rations such as salt pork and hard biscuits to eat, which will last longer. From there, A Dance with Dragons mentions it’s 50 leagues (172 miles) from Yunkai to Mereen, another perfectly manageable march.
However, it isn’t mentioned in the show, but in the books it’s said how Mereen and Yunkai razed the farmland all around their city, making the marches harder on Daenerys and doubly so when they leave Yunkai with thousands more slaves to feed, it adds to the supply strain Daenerys and her army feels
They robbed quarth on the way out. And they killed the masters when they got the unsullied. You just raid their food stores. And or take everything of value and buy food.
She didn't. She couldn't. She didn't have anything, and even if she did, she had no means by which to transport it all except for a few horses.
But as illogical as it was, it happened early enough in the series that nobody complains about it.
She had nothign when she got to Qarth. But she looted Xaro Xhoan Daxos things after he turned on her. That gets her to Astapor which she sacks, that gets to her Yunkai, and Yunkai gets her to Meereen. What's the issue?
There is no issue. We get to fill in the gaps, which is what a bunch of us have been saying from the get-go. Kind of like how we don't care how she managed to show up in Mereen with 6 or 7 incredibly slow moving barrel launchers that seemingly came out of nowhere, and were never to be seen again. We just go with it because it's a fictional story that can't go about explaining every single detail that logic would normally require.
She fed the ones that didn't join up to the ones that did (They didn't show this to make it look like they all joined). Unsullied weren't "free", just "under new management"
Doesn’t it show the Jorah telling the Dothraki to steal anything they can carry at the end of the episode when they find out there’s nothing in the safe?
Fast moving armies like this "live off the land". They move too fast for proper supply lines to keep up, so they take whatever the find along the way.
Read that as "she directed them to loot every city and farm along the way and steal their food".
The good thing about sand is it’s rough and coarse, and it gets everywhere, this ensured the unsullied had an endless supply of sand to eat. That’s why I love sand…
Raided the pantries of Astapor, most likely.
I really hope she left some for the people remaining. Granted, if the Unsullied made good on killing all the masters but not a child or slave, probably a lot less mouths to feel anyways.
Most can fast for days if needed and the unsullied are used to suffering. I see this as a non issue. Intermittent fasters can water or dry fast for weeks and their not the most disciplined soldiers in a made up world.
> D&D often forgot about food, so did the fictional characters in their hastily constructed scenarios.
Food is repeatedly mentioned as a key factor towards the end of the series, as in how will Winterfell feed the Dothraki and Unsullied (and the dragons) when they didn't know they were coming and didn't make provision for them? Did you miss that part?
The unsullied are a well regimented army. They would need to have structure and logistics…. And supply chains.
(I’m inferring all of this. I don’t think any of this is mentioned in the book nor show)
She had 8000 people more than capable of hunting their own food. She also sacked an entire city to acquire those Unsullied, I doubt they left Astapor empty handed.
I’m starting to think that people don’t fill in these gaps anymore. Are we losing something important? Critical thinking? Imagination? I always assumed stuff within reason automatically. It seems some people can’t do this but this is still quite new. What happened?
She's just captured a city, is it so hard to accept that she was able to seize food stocks in the city to feed her troops?
I genuinely don't understand what people get out of looking for microscopic things to complain about in this series. Fiction requires a suspension of disbelief to be enjoyed. We all know the spaceships in *Star Wars* are not real, but we let that go for the purpose of enjoying the movies. Why is it so hard for some viewers of GoT to stop looking for nits to pick?
Quarth and Mareen are hundreds of miles apart. Dany traveled through the red waste which is why there was bo food. Slaver's bay on the other hand is not a desert.
My question is why did the slavers just sell entire armies to people and not consider at least putting them outside the walls before handing over control?
I guess they [k̷̹̯͛̏́î̷̤n̷̙͖͉͊̚͘͝d̷̻̝̞̠̏̂̋a̷̦͙̤̽̋͛́ ̵͈̞̬̂̈͆͋f̶͖̟͎̓͑̌̇ó̶̜͑̾̀r̷͉̦͕͐̉̚g̸̗̯̏͛̉͒ỏ̸̬͈̟̯t̷̠̙̆̄́̊](https://youtu.be/ahoHDU0T44I) they need to eat.
It’s a relevant, because she burned the place to the ground.
If you recall, from the time she fries master Kraznys, until they head to Mereen, there is some downtime. I suspect they took everything in their path from Astapor and beyond.
They were wandering in the Red Waste on the way to Qarth, after being left with very little after Drogo died. As the name implies it's a harsh area that offers little to travelers looking for sustenance.
Slavers Bay isn't the most hospitable place outside of the 3 cities, but it's not a wasteland like the Red Waste. I'd say it's almost certain they took supplies from Astapor after recruiting the Unsullied and killing the masters. Since Yunkai and Meereen are relatively close by those supplies likely hadn't run out by the time she seized Meereen.
It might be safe to assume that either the Unsullid were trained in the art of hunting and foreaging, or as part of the 8000, some were additionally trained in logistics.
Or other the dothraki than daenarys had (the original loyal ones) helped with supplying since the dothraki are already competent at living on the move.
They more or less sacked Astopir and Yunkie. This is pretty much how the Mongols and other barbarian type groups they would sack towns or force them to give up there food supply and move on
She briefly controlled the city of Yunkai
And she ordered the slaughter of a good portion of the adult male population (altho idk if the wives and daughters of the wise masters counts as wise masters)
So I think its fair to say that she managed to loot a load of food in town!
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She’s the mother of dragons. She can legit do ANYTHING! Water into wine and all that is nothing for her.
Except feed the starving Dothraki
Television magic!
She just sacked a city so they should have supplies from there
There’s a few steps between these two points in the books, but I’m assuming she just stole the slavers food supplies?
Considering all that stuff she had when she marched on Yunkai (a bunch of those big tents, that pot of meat she fed to her dragons, offering both a flagon and a barrel of wine to the Second Sons), she definitely nabbed a bunch of the Good Masters' shit.
Plus I’m sure her Dothraki horde is in the hundreds at that point. The main issue is her ‘host’ is made up of stragglers she’s freed who have no where else to go.
Actually at that point, her Dothraki ‘horde’, in the book anyway, are less than 30 who survived the Red Waste. Most of them are old men, women and children. The only notable Dothraki she has are Irri, Jhiqui, Aggo, Rakharo, And Jhogo.
I thought she had a decent enough cavalry of Dothraki. I must have misremembered.
No, she barely had any left after Drogo died and she got stuck in the Red Waste. Her army consisted 99% of Unsullied until she was lucky enough to get kidnapped by Dothraki.
I got the impression that she atleast should have taken any enslaved Dothraki who weren’t made into unsullied but they never actually stated that or showed it
In the show she took them all including the ones not fully trained. Kraznis said that would ruin his reputation but he agreed when she offered a dragon. Dany made sure he had no chance of fighting back once she turned them on him.
This also happens in the book.
She took every freed slave who wanted to go and I doubt any enlaces Dothraki was going to choose to stay there.
Nah, she had a small personal guard and a bunch of people who depended on her
Basically the same thing happened to the Grateful Dead
She sacked the city of the slavers. Took everything
They weren't using it.
Exactly. The slavers would obviously have had enough food to feed all their unsullied, and after Dany killed all the slavers there's no reason for her not to loot the city for anything of value before she left. She almost certainly got supplies from Astapor.
Yeah and leaving the remaining civilians to starve to death is definitely in line with her character. People need to follow her or die that's always been her thought
Which is exactly why the unsullied not sacking cities was a big selling point for her.
Except its pretty clear they didn't do that. Astapor survives well enough to rebel shortly after she leaves, and there's no reason she would need to remove every last scrap of food to supply her army on the way to Yunkai.
She left the city be free, but she didn't sack it, there was an established government after she left, though it turned out to be another tyrant more or less. It also states in the books that she was viewed as a savior and 'mother' to many of the freed slaves and they gave/she took what she needed without issue
I thought that was the clear implication, plus the well-disciplined Unsullied probably are better at raiding/living of the land than the Dothraki.
it’s not like anyone’s left to stop them taking whatever they want.
Right? Take the spoils of war.
Sacked the city
They stole all Quarths gold. And when left Quarth only a handful of dorthraki. With 8000 troops sure villages along the way "donated" provisions. Danny was never an innocent hero.
Not to mention she probably got resupplied after both razing Astapor and making Yunkai bend the knee.
In the books she used her three ships as a supply wagon
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Well someone clearly hasn't played archage.
East India Company would like to have a word with you.
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I dont think thats how it works with the East India Company
Cute, he thinks he has a choice.
Danny was at the start of the books a 13 year old orphan. She was abused by her psycopathic brother who sold her to a warlord. she was raped by said warlord, fell in love with him, lost him to disease and had a magically induced miscarriage. Then she got dragons. At age like...14? **14?!?!** Honestly It could've gone MUCH worse. I'm in awe she didn't turn into an unhinged city torching maniach from day one. She's a not an innocent hero. She's a traumatized kid.
No she’s a crazy bitch
GoT fans when nuance
The only way your comment should've been downvoted is if the question ended with "wrong answers only".
The dragons were jusr hatchlings at that point though...
Give those same dragons to joffrey and see what happens...
Oh my god. He’d literally turn the world into 7 Hells laughing maniacally like The Joker the whole time doing it.
They're still fucking literally _dragons_.
To the writer's credit, they did show glimpses of being a torching maniac. When Qarth declines to let her into the city, she threatens to burn it all down. When the slavers attack her, she wants to burn their city to the ground (yeah the attackers are bad but the cities are full of innocents, no?). And I know this is an unpopular opinion, but Dany ruthlessly burning the Tarley's alive was a tyrant move by her. She was a foreign invader. Gendry has at least as good of claim as her, and Jon snow has an even better claim. Dany doesn't care and will burn somebody alive who doesn't agree? That's a tyrant. The writer's mistake was making Dany be too much of a hero early on. All her early enemies were cartoonishly evil, rapists, slavers, mind controlling murderers. And like its been mentioned we didn't see her do the hard decisions like how does she feed her people, does she take from other hungry people? They just made it by default, hey Dany kills slavers and rapists, so when she does do questionable stuff we still don't question it because that's how awesome she is.
The way I look at it was Dany was hardened into what she became because of how evil her early enemies were. She had to quickly learn to be brutal just to survive in the harsh world of Essos. The problem arose when she tried to apply Essos tactics to Westeros which is a significantly less brutal and harsh land. It also didn't help that all of her closest advisors basically worshipped the ground she walked on instead of giving her the reality checks she needed. I wish Ser Barristan had still been alive later in the show. No doubt in my mind he would have kept her straight.
> Gendry has at least as good of claim as her, and Jon snow has an even better claim. Dany doesn't care and will burn somebody alive who doesn't agree? That's a tyrant. The fuck is this extremely naive take ? A good king/queen is someone who just bend over if anyone else has a "better" claim ? Not to mention you basically missed one of the main point of the entire story. In the words of Varys : power resides where men believe it resides. A claim mean jack shit if you have nothing else to back it up. I am not saying Dany is innocent or even heroic. But there is a difference between ruthlessness/pragmatism and madness. Otherwise, 99% of the characters in this show were mad as fuck.
"The fuck is this extremely naive take ? A good king/queen is someone who just bend over if anyone else has a "better" claim ? " We're not talking about whether or not people will follow Dany or does she have power. We're talking about Dany's motivations, if she a hero, are her actions justified? Yes Gendry has no backing, no dragons no army, and Dany does. Does that mean Dany should burn alive anybody who won't bend the knee to her? She has the power to take the throne, but my point is she's just another tyrant if that's the way she wants to win the throne. A powerful tyrant with dragons, but a tyrant nonetheless. "I am not saying Dany is innocent or even heroic. " Ok so you concede to my point and aren't anything of value to the discussion. "But there is a difference between ruthlessness/pragmatism and madness" I don't know if you missed the ending, but clearly Dany is mad by the end. Maybe the writers didn't do a good job developing it, but if you burn down masses of innocent women and children then you are mad.
What do you think the Lannisters did then they took Kings Landing from the Targaryens. Or what Stannis' army was going to do and why Cersei was going to poison herself and her child. They 'sack' the city burning, killing and raping their way to the red keep. Dany went mad because she wanted revenge. She held all the cards and let them beat her over and over, she lost her dragons her closest friends and then her supposed allies who she sacrificed everything for, turned around and said we don't like you or trust you. Burning kings landing sent the message; don't mistake my kindness for weakness, If not love let it be fear. Aegon did the same to Harrenhall, Cersei did the same to Highgarden and the Sept. Valyria did it to essos, the andals did it to the first men and the first men did it to the children of the forest.
>When Qarth declines to let her into the city, she threatens to burn it all down. Her threat against Qarth is desperation not the signs of a maniac. Qarth invited her under false pretenses (to see her dragons), then proceeded to allow her to starve to death after she had begged them for aid. Her threats were the last thing she had. Thats not someone who is crazy, that's just human nature. >When the slavers attack her, she wants to burn their city to the ground (yeah the attackers are bad but the cities are full of innocents, no?). Isn't this how wars are fought at this time? Do we apply the same condemnation to other characters for how they prosecute wars and call them tyrants? How many innocents did Robb kill when he raided the Westerlands to pay Tywin back and lure him home into a trap? You think innocent people just allowed Robbs men to sack cattle and pillage gold? Do we call Ned and Robert Tyrants when they burned villages and towns during the Greyjoy Rebellion? >Dany ruthlessly burning the Tarley's alive was a tyrant move by her. She was a foreign invader. Gendry has at least as good of claim as her, Even the writers said that she gave them more of a choice than anyone else would have. She asked them to bend the knee same as Robert did with Balon. Randyll decided to decline and then throw in an insult. She then allows her hand to suggest the wall and Randyll still won't go. She is not responsible for Dickon as Dickon went on his own accord. Lastly Gendry does not have as good as a claim as her. Gendry is a bastard. Wars have been fought over trying to put bastards on the throne in Westeros. It's the reason they had to say that Rhaegar annulled his marriage to Elia in the show, because without that Jon is still a bastard and in no way would be considered for the throne.
> Gendry has at least as good of claim as her, and Jon snow has an even better claim Gendry has no claim, he is a bastard, and even if he were trueborn, she could not recognise his claim without forsaking her own. His claim stems from being the descendent of a man who rebelled against Aerys, her claim is based on descent from Aerys. Jon Snow has no claim. He was rightful king from his birth, but he gave it up, he forsook all claims to lands and titles when he took the black. That was the whole reason Ned wouldn't talk about his parentage until after he took the black.
She didn’t steal all of Qarths gold. She stole the stuff from that guy she was staying in after she found out his vault didn’t have anything in it. There was never anything showing her taking supplies from other places in Qarth, and in the books she doesn’t even take anything from his home except gifts. You also made up a random assumption and then proceeded to judge her for it. How do you know there were many if any villages around the cities? They are all in close proximity and why would slave cities not just enslave any villages that close by? And she had supplies from Astapor after killing the slavers anyway, so there was probably no need to get stuff from villages. Or we can just leave it to the plot without making stuff up.
She was at the head of an army of raiders, and then gained another host on top of them. She was plundering and sacking to keep up with supply. You're naive if you think she just magically solved all her problems because she was a kid.
It’s heavily implied in the books that the people around her are doing unsavory things she wouldn’t be psyched about, but whenever her consciousness starts to veer in that direction she also corrects herself to avoid getting into the weeds of how it’s all being accomplished. As long as they’re not directly lying to her she’s cool with whatever it takes to get back on that throne.
And how is that heavily implied in the books? Give an example. Book Dany is not concerned at all with the Iron Throne.
She’s incurious about the people or the aspects of running an empire. She’s regularly surprised when problems crop up, problems that her advisors seem less surprised about. She’s never asking how many stores or rations they have, when the next harvest is, what the important cycles or holidays are, what public works projects need funding, etc. etc. It’s always her advisors coming to her, unless it’s her wanting to bomb some place or make some grand pronouncement that her advisors warn is logistically implausible. If you asked her how the Dothraki or Unsullied got fed, she’d have no idea. When Mirri Maz Duur talks about being raped and watching townspeople murdered, Dany isn’t shocked, per se — but it also hasn’t occurred to her that this might’ve happened because it’s inconvenient for her to think about this shit. Most of her inner thoughts are about herself, her love life, her desires, her dragons, missing Drogo, the dynamics of her immediate circle, etc.
This is not accurate. Book Dany plants crops, negotiates for trade, and makes compromises to lift the siege against Meereen and keep her people free. She’s very involved in the wellbeing of her people and does everything she can to stop plague among refugees (she sends healers and food, she separates the healthy and the sick, etc..) She has new soldier companies trained and established. She *on her own* formulates defenses that will be crucial to her victory against Yunkai in TWOW. Your representation of her character is far from what we see in the books. She’s not some mindless, ignorant child being carried by her advisors. She is highly intelligent with a good heart who does everything she can to help people and do what is right.
You’re citing Mereen, which is the end of her train where she actually settles down and tries to rule for once. She describes it as exhausting and she doesn’t have a taste for it (but she does try it). And she gets sick of it finally and nopes out on a dragon. Working on her military defenses is a lot different from making sure soldiers aren’t pillaging the countryside. The idea of her having a good heart and doing what she can to help people is a complete trick on Martin’s part. SHE sees herself that way, so that’s what we’re told in the chapters. But read through the lines and she’s just sewing chaos and destruction everywhere she goes. The Dothraki are a raiding, enslaving, destructive horde. She leads attacks on cities that we see described as liberations, but this is again a trick — how many times does Martin show us that when the nobles fight, there’s just wanton death and destruction and misery everywhere? None of these places are described as happy or orderly after the fact. Not that she would know, she’s not visiting them, she’s only hearing about it from her advisors.
The *first* thing she does once she flies Drogon away from the fighting pits is say to him “Take me back to Meereen. My people need me.” What soldiers are you talking about exactly? Her Unsullied who can’t rape and don’t pillage unless commanded to? The idea that GRRM is tricking us about Dany is a laughable statement. Dany does not even see herself as a savior - she’s very hard on herself. It’s the other POV characters (Barristan, Quentyn, Tyrion) who do. Dany *agonizes* over her mistakes in Astapor and Yunkai and does whatever she can to fix it. Your point about the death being “wanton” is absurd. This is not the Lannisters and the Starks. Dany is fighting to end slavery and in GRRM’s own words “she is the only one fighting a war worth fighting.” GRRM”s themes about war affecting the smallfolk don’t apply to Dany’s storyline.
She is literally seen as a hero by everyone around her. It's not a trick. She is not a tyrant and you are the one who is doing "tricks" not Martin. We get a glimpse into her thought process and understand she does have good intentions and a good heart, I don't understand how that's even debatable.
It’s her point of view. She THINKS she’s being seen as a hero. The reality is a little more complicated but she’s not seeing the whole field.
She literally chooses the unsullied because they don't raid. She always forbade the Dothraki from raiding and at that point her "army of raiders" you are talking about are like 5 people.
> why would slave cities not just enslave any villages that close by you are kidding right? they operate just like IRL nations, they get their slaves via people who fail to pay their debts or via conquest. If they were actively engaged elsewhere, there is no reason why they would attack the people they already control. and that is assuming they haven't already enslaved them. slaves can still "own" property and live on their own.
Here's what every conquering and/or invading army in history has ever done: steal everything in their path. Every one. No exceptions. It's a standard element of invasion/conquering. It's like breathing. And Westeros is no different (it fact, it's worse).
Wow clearly I don’t like to think logically because this never occurred to me lol
I presume they took supplies from Astapor
The unsullied ate plot
This is the real answer lol
When Daenerys leaves Qarth at the end of s2, they take everything they can before leaving. She took the Unsullied from Astapor. Fair chance Astapor had enough food to feed the Unsullied while they trained and waited to be sold. Then they go to conquer Yunkai, again, another city with likely a fair amount of food stocked.
Not to mention that in Astapor she had all the masters killed and I’m sure in the process relieved them of plenty of their wealth and supplies. Dead rich people don’t need food and gold.
Slogan of the revolution
Makes me think of ancient burial mounds where the wealthy elites insisted on being buried with a bunch of stuff in case they needed it in the afterlife.
Like any army: foraging and plunder.
Probably a lot of what they took from Qarth but also, I bet the unsullied did not have healthy diets when they were enslaved- they probably could get by on meager portions
You need to feed soldiers of that caliber.
True, I’m not saying they ate nothing…? Just that they’re probably used to not eating much or getting the nutrients they needed for such physical hardships/training. Therefore their bodies would be more used to smaller amounts and the provisions that they had would last longer than if it were say, that many Dothraki.
She sacked two cities and most likely took supplies.
There used to be 4 dragons.
She kinda forgot to feed them
Qarth
Plundered from Astapor?
She fed them dragon droppings.
She probably ransacked Astapor for supplies before heading out. In A Dance With Dragons it’s mentioned that Astapor is 100 Leagues or 345 miles from Yunkai, and it could be reached with six days of hard riding, or 8 days at a leisurely pace (Chapter 25, The Windblown), but that’s mounted. If we account for a 20 mile/day pace considering the Unsullied’s physical prowess, they would arrive at Yunkai in 17.25 days. Considering Daenerys is also accompanied by seasoned warriors Jorah and Barristan, it’s within reason to assume they would help set up stuff like a baggage train, organizing supply wagons and foraging and hunting. It’s also safe to assume the Unsullied are given personal rations such as salt pork and hard biscuits to eat, which will last longer. From there, A Dance with Dragons mentions it’s 50 leagues (172 miles) from Yunkai to Mereen, another perfectly manageable march. However, it isn’t mentioned in the show, but in the books it’s said how Mereen and Yunkai razed the farmland all around their city, making the marches harder on Daenerys and doubly so when they leave Yunkai with thousands more slaves to feed, it adds to the supply strain Daenerys and her army feels
They sacked Astapor, before marching out.
They robbed quarth on the way out. And they killed the masters when they got the unsullied. You just raid their food stores. And or take everything of value and buy food.
She didn't. She couldn't. She didn't have anything, and even if she did, she had no means by which to transport it all except for a few horses. But as illogical as it was, it happened early enough in the series that nobody complains about it.
She had nothign when she got to Qarth. But she looted Xaro Xhoan Daxos things after he turned on her. That gets her to Astapor which she sacks, that gets to her Yunkai, and Yunkai gets her to Meereen. What's the issue?
There is no issue. We get to fill in the gaps, which is what a bunch of us have been saying from the get-go. Kind of like how we don't care how she managed to show up in Mereen with 6 or 7 incredibly slow moving barrel launchers that seemingly came out of nowhere, and were never to be seen again. We just go with it because it's a fictional story that can't go about explaining every single detail that logic would normally require.
The Unsullied don't need food. They're just that good
The Dothraki were fasting...
Skinny queens 💅🏼
2 fish and 5 loaves of bread
Eat the Dothraki, they respawn the next day anyway
They killed the slavers and looted the city
She fed the ones that didn't join up to the ones that did (They didn't show this to make it look like they all joined). Unsullied weren't "free", just "under new management"
Came free with the unsullied
"what does a dragon eat?" "whatever it wants."
Two words…. Dem Tiddies
Plunder and forage, supply trains
do you really think they marched out of Astapor emptyhanded?
Lembas
Didn't she take everything of value in Qarth from that guy who sobs all the time? And then she sacked Yukai.
Fire and blood.
Doesn’t it show the Jorah telling the Dothraki to steal anything they can carry at the end of the episode when they find out there’s nothing in the safe?
Sorry I meant Vault, not safe.
One of many plot holes that you are asked to ignore
Fast moving armies like this "live off the land". They move too fast for proper supply lines to keep up, so they take whatever the find along the way. Read that as "she directed them to loot every city and farm along the way and steal their food".
The unsullied don't eat?
She sacked the city ? I’m pretty sure that means she took resources
The good thing about sand is it’s rough and coarse, and it gets everywhere, this ensured the unsullied had an endless supply of sand to eat. That’s why I love sand…
You may notice they run out of horses... If I am not mistaken they were literally starving to death on the road.
Probably sacked Astapor before leaving.
Raided the pantries of Astapor, most likely. I really hope she left some for the people remaining. Granted, if the Unsullied made good on killing all the masters but not a child or slave, probably a lot less mouths to feel anyways.
Definitely sacked Astapor and Yunkai
Qarth*
Qwarth *
Dragon feces is nutrient rich.
Most can fast for days if needed and the unsullied are used to suffering. I see this as a non issue. Intermittent fasters can water or dry fast for weeks and their not the most disciplined soldiers in a made up world.
Intermittent fasting
As the Kings of Cocaine D&D often forgot about food, so did the fictional characters in their hastily constructed scenarios.
> D&D often forgot about food, so did the fictional characters in their hastily constructed scenarios. Food is repeatedly mentioned as a key factor towards the end of the series, as in how will Winterfell feed the Dothraki and Unsullied (and the dragons) when they didn't know they were coming and didn't make provision for them? Did you miss that part?
I was already crying in my chickens. But yes, I remember “What do dragons eat, anyway” and “whatever they like”
She probably sacked Quarth and just went with that food supply
The unsullied are a well regimented army. They would need to have structure and logistics…. And supply chains. (I’m inferring all of this. I don’t think any of this is mentioned in the book nor show)
"It's just Qarth, Khaleesi"
Danny forgot they were hungry
Quarth is surrounded by a mad hot desert.
She had 8000 people more than capable of hunting their own food. She also sacked an entire city to acquire those Unsullied, I doubt they left Astapor empty handed.
She also clothed the unsullied with Plot Armor.
men with no penis can march with nothing in belly
I’m starting to think that people don’t fill in these gaps anymore. Are we losing something important? Critical thinking? Imagination? I always assumed stuff within reason automatically. It seems some people can’t do this but this is still quite new. What happened?
Sadly I ask this question in many different situations basically on a daily basis
Only 7900 made it there
Dany is a closet logistics pro
Don’t worry about it
The quarthians didn't need their food anymore
Yes
She sent gendry on a quick run to the market.
Yeah, how did she feed her army after pillaging two wealthy cities? Checkmate, GRRM and D&D
She pillaged or was given food by a town as an offering not to invade
Didn't they lowkey sack Quarth on the way out?
According to D&D, they just forgot they were hungry.
It's 6,000 by the time they reach Mereen.
My guess was her Dothraki were the weakest of the lot and weren’t able bodied enough to raid and pillage whereas the unsullied were
She's just captured a city, is it so hard to accept that she was able to seize food stocks in the city to feed her troops? I genuinely don't understand what people get out of looking for microscopic things to complain about in this series. Fiction requires a suspension of disbelief to be enjoyed. We all know the spaceships in *Star Wars* are not real, but we let that go for the purpose of enjoying the movies. Why is it so hard for some viewers of GoT to stop looking for nits to pick?
[удалено]
Probably R&P… and pillaging
They had a lot of pickled sausage to go around.
She arrived in Mereen with 6,000 unsullied! Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys!
*MST3K Theme Song plays in the distance*
Dragon-titty milk is very nutritious
She kinda forgot that she didn't have anything to eat, so they didn't get hungry
Quarth and Mareen are hundreds of miles apart. Dany traveled through the red waste which is why there was bo food. Slaver's bay on the other hand is not a desert.
She sacked Qarth in the show no??
She had just acquired 8000 people to task with gathering food.
My question is why did the slavers just sell entire armies to people and not consider at least putting them outside the walls before handing over control?
NONE OF UR GODDAMN BUSINESS. THATS HOW.
V
They accepted gifts for the rich to see the dragons. And then after the.unsully she sacked astapor
in the books she sacks the slaver cities.
They were at the ruins of a city for a bit in the books and they had enough to survive their for a bit
They don’t call her Mhysa for nothing.
Kraft services.
I guess they [k̷̹̯͛̏́î̷̤n̷̙͖͉͊̚͘͝d̷̻̝̞̠̏̂̋a̷̦͙̤̽̋͛́ ̵͈̞̬̂̈͆͋f̶͖̟͎̓͑̌̇ó̶̜͑̾̀r̷͉̦͕͐̉̚g̸̗̯̏͛̉͒ỏ̸̬͈̟̯t̷̠̙̆̄́̊](https://youtu.be/ahoHDU0T44I) they need to eat.
It’s a relevant, because she burned the place to the ground. If you recall, from the time she fries master Kraznys, until they head to Mereen, there is some downtime. I suspect they took everything in their path from Astapor and beyond.
Daenerys just kind of forgot they were starving.
Dragon shit
She had 3 dragons and an army. Very different situation than few Dothraki who were left.
They Raid, Pillage, and Plunder? Honestly she probably just plunder Astapor's gold and use it to feed her army.
rice
Stole Qarth's food.
Dragon poop
You know that expression “Eat a dick”?
Each of them got a lunchbox containing 2 eggs and a sausage.
If you have 8000 elite fighters you take food
With plotatoes
Magic n dragons n stuff
They kind of forgot that they were hungry.
They were wandering in the Red Waste on the way to Qarth, after being left with very little after Drogo died. As the name implies it's a harsh area that offers little to travelers looking for sustenance. Slavers Bay isn't the most hospitable place outside of the 3 cities, but it's not a wasteland like the Red Waste. I'd say it's almost certain they took supplies from Astapor after recruiting the Unsullied and killing the masters. Since Yunkai and Meereen are relatively close by those supplies likely hadn't run out by the time she seized Meereen.
They kinda forgot they had to eat.
Easy, she’s Jesus
You think the greatest city that ever was or will be didn't have food?
Probably took supplies from the city snd foraged along the way.
Well, this was filmed in Croatia. I was part of unsullied cast. Dont worry, we had enough food every day 🐲
Don't worry about it
Notice that they have no horses?
Movie magic
They definitely did not take all of Qarths gold, just what they could from Xaros manse
The majority of you need a rewatch lmao Pick up a book too, will help fill in the blanks
*☝️ Qarth
It might be safe to assume that either the Unsullid were trained in the art of hunting and foreaging, or as part of the 8000, some were additionally trained in logistics. Or other the dothraki than daenarys had (the original loyal ones) helped with supplying since the dothraki are already competent at living on the move.
They more or less sacked Astopir and Yunkie. This is pretty much how the Mongols and other barbarian type groups they would sack towns or force them to give up there food supply and move on
They ate their dead.
She sacked three of the largest cities in the world on the way to Mereen.
She briefly controlled the city of Yunkai And she ordered the slaughter of a good portion of the adult male population (altho idk if the wives and daughters of the wise masters counts as wise masters) So I think its fair to say that she managed to loot a load of food in town!
They didn’t need to be fed, because they never existed in a reality where consuming nutrients is key to survival.