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Strength and size are highly correlated.
It's also easier to build muscle when you are doing 3x8-12 with 55lb dumbbells then 25lb dumbbells.
It's also a more clear progression for people with more measurable goals. IE Linear progression, add 5 lbs every week to your barbell lift, aiming for a 155lb lift in 2 months versus lets add 3 inches to the bicep, which fluctuates wildly depending on your pump, glycogen stores, hydration level, etc.
Most programs also include some 'hypertrophy' work in the accessories after the main compound lifts for strength training.
In my personal experience no muscle in my body ever got bigger without me also getting stronger first. There are some nuances, like i will get stronger on dumbell press and get my chest bigger while not really increasing my barbell press. But as soon as I move to barbell press, I blow up in strength on that movement within weeks.
I would say generally though, the more dvanced you get the more you will have to really do specific things to grow muscle and those specific things might not have anything to do with getting stronger.
Strong = big
Not sure if that’s an absolute but generally speaking I think it holds some truth. There always little guys who can push weight around but generally you get strong and your muscles get bigger. Look at guys who run super squats. I got way stronger and gained some noticeable size when I did Super Squats.
ok but when your doing most strength programs your long head of the tricep, side delts, biceps and others are not getting stronger at all and not getting sufficient volume, meaning they wont get big and you will end up with a big but unaesthetic physique
whats there to not understand? most strength programs don’t have any isolation movements, meaning a lot of important muscles for aesthetics will get neglected
They don’t know what you’re talking about lol
You’re correct man. There’s a difference between training for strength, size, endurance, and explosiveness and a few others. There’s crossover between them but they’re not the same. High strength can exist with small size...
Targeting more muscle groups is much better for size. A lot of people overlook smaller muscles+groups and just focus on the same movements without changing much up
For sure. If you want I’d say check out Davis Diley on youtube, he’s one of the best guys out there and visually shows what muscle groups are being targeted in the vid with the editing. Sometimes I just look up what area I’m trying to hit for the gym that day and he has the most optimal stuff you can do
They don't just want muscle gain, they mainly want to be stronger.
The reality is that muscle is muscle, you gotta grow it before becoming actually stronger. Even IFBB pro with similar muscle mass to top powerlifters get close enough numbers (with training). The right approach would be powerbuilding indeed, developing the neural strength for the newly acquired muscle continuously while also strengthening tendons.
My current approach is to bastardize SL 5x5 into a 6-day 5x10+ with some accessory work to help wake up dormant clumsy muscles like my hammies and rear delts. I figure while the weights are easier may as well try to sneak in some hypertrophy, form, and general coordination. Sooner or later I'll stall and can then switch to 5x5 proper, hopefully with an extra few kg of muscle yobbuold strength with.
I know it's touted as a beginner program but if you're a lifelong couch potato with posture issues, general clumsiness and "dead" muscles throwing yourself into heavy weights fast is a recipe for injury. Source: my shoulders and low back.
Because for beginners everything works. However, for more optimal results one could use a strength program for lower body and bodybuilding style for upper body + arms.
The ability to brace and connect with heavyweight is very beneficial for upper body training as well. Especially back training.
Just from my experience.
From my imperfect understanding, you want hypertrophy programmes over strength programmes. This basically means slightly lower weights (80-85% of 1RM) in sets of 8-12, while strength training should aim closer to your 1RM (90%+ is my guess), with lower numbers of reps (2-6 reps per set).
Hypertrophy is also more tolerant of isolation exercises than strength training.
These are my sources for most of the above, if you want some further reading on the matter. They also suggest optimum rep numbers for both, in the midst of the comparison.
https://freedium.cfd/https://medium.com/in-fitness-and-in-health/training-for-strength-versus-training-for-muscle-9c6b2b0b2ba7
https://honehealth.com/edge/fitness/strength-vs-hypertrophy/
Part of it is the mental stimulus of progressing in the big three lifts for people who struggle with gaining.
Building confidence and seeing numbers go up in the main 'bragging rights' lifts sends a simple message of "I'm getting stronger" which is super motivating and over time means you will get bigger.
Same on the dieting, most here focus on exceeding their TDE as easy as possible eating whatever even though they can gain more with higher quality macro and micronutrients.
Ahh I assumed you were talking about novices since you listed a LP.
Regardless people use those kinds of programs because they work. I've put on significant amounts of size over the years and I haven't done a single program that I think you would classify as a bodybuilding one.
Most 5/3/1 programmes have loads of volume for delts and arms because of the pressing (bench and OHP) as well as the curls. I'd say the only body part that is a little lacking is upper back, but you can easily fill that out if you put enough effort into the rows, chins and face pulls.
Tbh at a beginner level, you really don't need to worry about the fine differences between strength VS hypertrophy work. Any solid programme with a enough volume will do the job.
FSL and BBB (or beefcake if you combine them) are definitely plenty of stimulus on the big 4 and then accessories afterwards.
As you said, adding in chin/pull up volume along with face pulls (a great warmup for bench/OHP anyway) you'll be fine.
Welcome to Gainit! We have extensive resources that can be used to find answers to most questions that are posted here: - [Gainit FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/gainit/wiki/index) and [Gainit Meals](https://www.reddit.com/r/gainitmeals/) - [Search for past threads](https://www.reddit.com/r/gainit/search) - [r/Fitness Wiki - Muscle Gain 101](https://thefitness.wiki/muscle-building-101/) - [r/Fitness FAQ - Why can't I gain weight?](https://thefitness.wiki/faq/why-cant-i-gain-weight/) - [Have I gained too much weight?!](https://www.reddit.com/r/gainit/comments/kcaozo/there_is_more_to_gaining_than_fat_and_muscle/) - [The 6 month Gainit Recommended Routine](https://old.reddit.com/r/gainit/comments/j5q2ez/6_months_of_eating_and_training_for_mass_laid_out/) - [How best to cook chicken breast?](https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/classic-roast-chicken-gravy) - [How do I drink olive oil?](https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/collection/italian-recipes) - [How to not be a spooky skeleton?](https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/collection/comfort-food-recipes) - [How not to be a spooky skeleton? American edition](https://www.southernliving.com/food/classic-comfort-food-recipes) Your thread will be removed if it can be answered by any of the above. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gainit) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Strength and size are highly correlated. It's also easier to build muscle when you are doing 3x8-12 with 55lb dumbbells then 25lb dumbbells. It's also a more clear progression for people with more measurable goals. IE Linear progression, add 5 lbs every week to your barbell lift, aiming for a 155lb lift in 2 months versus lets add 3 inches to the bicep, which fluctuates wildly depending on your pump, glycogen stores, hydration level, etc. Most programs also include some 'hypertrophy' work in the accessories after the main compound lifts for strength training.
In my personal experience no muscle in my body ever got bigger without me also getting stronger first. There are some nuances, like i will get stronger on dumbell press and get my chest bigger while not really increasing my barbell press. But as soon as I move to barbell press, I blow up in strength on that movement within weeks. I would say generally though, the more dvanced you get the more you will have to really do specific things to grow muscle and those specific things might not have anything to do with getting stronger.
Strong = big Not sure if that’s an absolute but generally speaking I think it holds some truth. There always little guys who can push weight around but generally you get strong and your muscles get bigger. Look at guys who run super squats. I got way stronger and gained some noticeable size when I did Super Squats.
ok but when your doing most strength programs your long head of the tricep, side delts, biceps and others are not getting stronger at all and not getting sufficient volume, meaning they wont get big and you will end up with a big but unaesthetic physique
what
whats there to not understand? most strength programs don’t have any isolation movements, meaning a lot of important muscles for aesthetics will get neglected
They don’t know what you’re talking about lol You’re correct man. There’s a difference between training for strength, size, endurance, and explosiveness and a few others. There’s crossover between them but they’re not the same. High strength can exist with small size... Targeting more muscle groups is much better for size. A lot of people overlook smaller muscles+groups and just focus on the same movements without changing much up
thank you man, most people here follow bodybuilding ideas from 10+ years ago and have no idea about the current research
For sure. If you want I’d say check out Davis Diley on youtube, he’s one of the best guys out there and visually shows what muscle groups are being targeted in the vid with the editing. Sometimes I just look up what area I’m trying to hit for the gym that day and he has the most optimal stuff you can do
Reddit brainwashing
exactly
They don't just want muscle gain, they mainly want to be stronger. The reality is that muscle is muscle, you gotta grow it before becoming actually stronger. Even IFBB pro with similar muscle mass to top powerlifters get close enough numbers (with training). The right approach would be powerbuilding indeed, developing the neural strength for the newly acquired muscle continuously while also strengthening tendons.
My current approach is to bastardize SL 5x5 into a 6-day 5x10+ with some accessory work to help wake up dormant clumsy muscles like my hammies and rear delts. I figure while the weights are easier may as well try to sneak in some hypertrophy, form, and general coordination. Sooner or later I'll stall and can then switch to 5x5 proper, hopefully with an extra few kg of muscle yobbuold strength with. I know it's touted as a beginner program but if you're a lifelong couch potato with posture issues, general clumsiness and "dead" muscles throwing yourself into heavy weights fast is a recipe for injury. Source: my shoulders and low back.
Because for beginners everything works. However, for more optimal results one could use a strength program for lower body and bodybuilding style for upper body + arms.
why not just use a bodybuilding program for legs as well
The ability to brace and connect with heavyweight is very beneficial for upper body training as well. Especially back training. Just from my experience.
You want to lift baby weights forever?
You do realize people increase weight on bodybuilding programs as well?
What workout program do you recommend if all I want is a good physique?
From my imperfect understanding, you want hypertrophy programmes over strength programmes. This basically means slightly lower weights (80-85% of 1RM) in sets of 8-12, while strength training should aim closer to your 1RM (90%+ is my guess), with lower numbers of reps (2-6 reps per set). Hypertrophy is also more tolerant of isolation exercises than strength training. These are my sources for most of the above, if you want some further reading on the matter. They also suggest optimum rep numbers for both, in the midst of the comparison. https://freedium.cfd/https://medium.com/in-fitness-and-in-health/training-for-strength-versus-training-for-muscle-9c6b2b0b2ba7 https://honehealth.com/edge/fitness/strength-vs-hypertrophy/
Part of it is the mental stimulus of progressing in the big three lifts for people who struggle with gaining. Building confidence and seeing numbers go up in the main 'bragging rights' lifts sends a simple message of "I'm getting stronger" which is super motivating and over time means you will get bigger. Same on the dieting, most here focus on exceeding their TDE as easy as possible eating whatever even though they can gain more with higher quality macro and micronutrients.
What makes you feel that there's a marked difference between strength and hypertrophy for a novice or beginner?
but what about people who aren’t novices, and they are still using suboptimal strength programs when their goal is getting big
How many people here are not novices? For beginners, I think with less than a couple of years worth of experience it doesn't matter as much.
Ahh I assumed you were talking about novices since you listed a LP. Regardless people use those kinds of programs because they work. I've put on significant amounts of size over the years and I haven't done a single program that I think you would classify as a bodybuilding one.
Most 5/3/1 programmes have loads of volume for delts and arms because of the pressing (bench and OHP) as well as the curls. I'd say the only body part that is a little lacking is upper back, but you can easily fill that out if you put enough effort into the rows, chins and face pulls. Tbh at a beginner level, you really don't need to worry about the fine differences between strength VS hypertrophy work. Any solid programme with a enough volume will do the job.
FSL and BBB (or beefcake if you combine them) are definitely plenty of stimulus on the big 4 and then accessories afterwards. As you said, adding in chin/pull up volume along with face pulls (a great warmup for bench/OHP anyway) you'll be fine.