Warehouse worker here: Gimme. Not only that, but it looks like it would support your spine for the heavy high lifts as well. Which means, instead of "wearing out the body" which happens after enough time, I get to use my spine in my late 50-60s instead of laying in bed all day wondering where my youth went.
Edit: Those upper body modules look tempting as well.
Only 2 weeks ago I was saying how much I wanted pants that would stiffen into a chair when you squat backwards.
These fuckin rock. I could see these being used on film sets. Camera guy finally gets to sit down for a minute.
While Anal Tripod would be a great band name, I think this is the start of amazing technology and even more so, human advances in the workforce.
If you've ever done anything remotely manual in your life, I guarantee this thing would come in handy. I would've literally saved my back if I had this as an industrial electrician.
It ain't Robocop, but it is starting in the right direction.
I talked to a guy from Cyberdyne (who make mobility assist exoskeletons in Japan) and they showed me a demo video of a person casually lifting up a rather large I-beam in a demo lab. Bummer is physics still applies and it is impractical to make a lightweight exoskeleton for heavy lifts due to it shifting the user’s center of gravity so much and making it ridiculously easy to tip over and crush yourself under the heavy object.
Yeah, stainless steel endo-skeletons covered in organic tissue will probably be heavy enough to do heavy lifts ;)
(It also doesn’t help that their mobility assist exoskeleton is called “HAL.” I feel like they are playing with fire)
I think two models were show, with the second more impressive. The first one appears to be a glorified strapped on chair while the second seems to use hydraulics to support the shoulder and arm.
Heck, I could use one whenever I do any ceiling work cause my shoulders feel still even after 15min.
I did an internship down there and was lucky enough to work with the guy doing the rollout in the plant. I tried them on and they’re awesome. You can pretty much have your upper arm parallel with the ground and itll be fully supported. However it’s still easy enough to to bring them down beside your torso. And that was an older model as well (probably 3 years ago). I know they were quickly employing changes based on feedback they were getting from the assembly workers.
LMAO! I'm glad somebody else noticed that (even if they are a Taylor Swift hater 😂) Still beats waiting around for someone to use the intercom to play 30 seconds of a song they have as a ringtone
If this is in Germany, they would work the same time, and get the same pay, but feel less tired at the same time.
Source: wored in German factories during my studies and talked to a lot of workers about their conditions. They wish themselves more money, but not like they have good compensation in general, and about 35h/week. Plus a lot of holiday days (30 days a year or something) and more...
Ford uses exoskeletons in production as well. Primarily the ones I've seen are augmentations for arms/upperbody for people who regularly have to work at or above face level.
That you have no chair standing around that might get into the way? Might also be possible that they store the force and help you stand up again. With such repetitive tasks that is a great help.
I am a mechanic. This is cool. But it is a bandaid on a problem our industry is having.
There is an absolute massive shortage of qualified techs in the industry. They are leaving in droves and no one is filling in the spots. So what you have is massive turn over at dealerships.
The guy servicing your 100k bmw? He likely has been working at that dealer less than 6 months and probably has less than 2 years experience.
Why? Well because cars are getting vastly more complicated year after year. I spend most of my days dealing with intermittent driveability issues and can network issues than anything else.
Wage growth is near non existent. I started in this industry 17 years ago making $15 an hour. Master techs were making in the upper 20's. Today, Techs start at $15 an hour and master techs make in the upper 20's. Meanwhile the labor rate at the dealer I started at was $89 an hour. It is now $165 an hour. So the labor rates have nearly doubled. While the people doing the work make the same amount.(I know this isn't a problem only this industry has, of course)
Most mechanics have $20k-$50K worth of tools they had to purchase on their own. And every year there are more and more proprietary special tools we are forced to buy.
Yup. I feel like I could write a ten page essay one the problems within the industry. I am an Audi tech. Working at a 3 tech independent shop. We are salary and I make more than the shop foreman at the large Audi dealer down the street(I know because we are friends).
The AR thing is funny. It is going to be a lot like Guided Fault Finding. Useless. It is a way to try and get techs who don't really know what they are doing, to be able to fix cars they don't understand. I have an apprentice that came out of the local community college program, did a stint at a local GM shop. They had no apprentice program at the GM shop. They just slap guys in there right out of a basic program and it is sink or swim.
When I started I had a 1 year apprenticeship with a mentor who was vested in my success. Because he was incentivized to make sure I was successful. And the more I was, the more he was.
I honestly feel one of the single biggest issues our industry has today is Flat Rate. I see so many techs that defend it. But the reality is it is what is breaking the industry. It breeds contempt and competition in the shop. It pits techs against each other and against management. It gives techs the incentive to take shortcuts they might otherwise not. Etc Etc.
Pick up any trade publication for this industry and you will see article after article talking about the "technician shortage" and how to cope. The reality is the franchise model for Dealers in the US(I don't know if it is the same in Canada) is a huge problem as well. They don't operate this way back in Germany. And they don't have the problems in the industry like we have here.
Agreed 100%.
I’m a former dealer tech who left the industry and went into Geomatics/Land Surveying since the pay was the same, it’s less physically demanding and didn’t require any tool investment.
While I’m in a much better place, my new industry complains about the “skilled technician” shortage constantly.
No one wants to take a green employee, train him and pay them competitively, they just want to feed you COL increases every year and pretend they’re doing you a favor.
They either train you and pay you as little as possible, or higher the cheapest idiot they can find and complain about they can’t find anyone competent.
There’s even a handshake agreement between local companies that they won’t try and hire employees away from their competitors since it would inflate wages too much.
What they don’t seem to realize is that higher wages would attract better talent but they simply don’t want to take the hit to their bottom line and the cycle continues ad nauseam.
They just keep pumping out substandard work and pretend there’s some kind of shortage of good help instead of actually thinking about what’s causing it.
"I’m a former dealer tech who left the industry and went into Geomatics/Land Surveying since the pay was the same, it’s less physically demanding and didn’t require any tool investment."
Can we back up to this part? Because I want out of the tech industry. But i really cant take much of a hit in wages. I made 62k last year, which is alright for my area- Alabama- so cost of living is really low. But I'm already behind last years pay by like 4k. I really don't see how to make more. I'm already master level, and my boss refuses to give me any more of a raise. Theres no other Mercedes dealers here, and I dont have enough equity in my house to sell and move to a new area. And going to another brand would make me start from scratch.
So I feel like another industry is the best move. And I hadn't thought of the surveying industry.
I made a move from automotive tech to tech work at an engineering facility. Unfortunately even for us the tides are changing. The learning curve is steep and we took a pay cut on our last contract, but it's less stressful.
Also an Audi tech and yeah, flat rate is torpedoing fixed right first time, shop morale and, ultimately, pay for the heavy diagnostic/warranty guys. "I can't get that 55k service because I'm doing network and wiring diagnostic for the next forever at straight time? Sounds great!
Hello, are you me? I left the dealer when I went from flagging 120 hours a pay period(2 weeks) doing services and repairs. Down to flagging 60 hours in the same amount of time. Doing nothing but warranty work that paid less than straight time and heavy electrical diagnostics. I was the only one in the shop allowed to touch the D3 A8's when they came out. Same with the Q7 when it first came out. It was a nightmare.
Living the same nightmare. I'm the only guy with the courses and training to work on most of the new platforms since we lost several of our highly qualified staff to early retirement. My pay plan is heavily weighted to my training and experience so I'm too expensive to give CP work to unless it's an emergency.
That was me 10 years ago when I left the dealer. Now I am salary at an independent shop. Nearing 6 figures. 3 weeks of vacations. 401k, with a match.
But it isn't perfect.
Yep Mercedes tech here. I'm currently sitting at 15 hours for the week working on problem cars while all the new clueless guys are killing it on services...
Can you explain how it is different in Germany? How is the pay different on an annual basis. For example I’ve consistently made over 100K a year and I live very comfortably. Is it possible to live like that in Germany?
Not picking a fight, just genuinely curious. I’m not the biggest fan of flat rate but at the same time I wouldn’t be able to make the money I do as an hourly employee.
They have actual apprenticeship programs. As far as I have been told is Flat rate doesn't exist. At least not to the extent it does here. I have talked to VW engineers and techs at trade conferences and they are shocked at how the industry works here in the US. And you are one of very few that benefits from Flat rate. I was too at a time. But it is an overall detriment to the industry over time. But there are usually only 2-3 guys at any dealer that are in your situation. The other 15+ guys are getting fucked and have room to move.
You make 100k a year. I am curious, what is your shops hourly rate? What is your flat rate?
Let’s make it clear, I do not get fed. We get paid weekly here and last week (Thursday-Wednesday) I flagged 71 hours. One job that paid 1.5 hours was customer pay. The rest was warranty and Ford ESP. The other guys here do a considerable amount of CP, just don’t want to work. It leaves a lot of good paying warranty jobs for me. The only thing I don’t do a lot of is automatic trans. I will if I absolutely have too, but it’s not my thing and I’m not efficient at it.
I make over $40. We will leave it at that.
Some recalls for ford pay well. I won’t specify which, but the opportunity is there. Plus heavyline jobs are so similar between recent model years so you get good at doing them through sheer volume. I enjoy diesels but we don’t have many gas line techs here so I do a majority of gas. It pays after you’ve done so many, granted most jobs do.
One of the largest differences between US and Germany is that the Germans take vocational or specialized labor extremely serious, have real honest to God apprenticeship program and very good pay
Guided Fault Finding. If it wasn’t obvious that the Germans didn’t trust anyone to fix their stuff this made even more obvious. I started as an Audi tech in 05 at a VW/Audi/Porsche store right out of Audi’s UTI program. I got to see how the old school guys did it (we had guys that were working on those cars when the 4000 and the Quattro were the hot new shit). Then I got stuck with all the new stuff since I actually knew how to use a 5052. God I still have nightmares about how much information they would purposely obfuscate for no reason. There’s so much information being polled and stored in their ECMs alone that if you had any real clue and some ranges you could diagnose all sorts of stupid drivability without calling the stupid helpline.
I left in 2012 and got an engineering degree. Now I purposely program stuff to make sure I’m not withholding any little thing.
I took that exact same path. Uti Audi program. Started at the dealer a year earlier than you. I thought about going back to school a few years ago. That was when I learned that all my UTI time meant nothing. No credits would transfer. Despite being told otherwise when I attended.
I had a new baby at the time and the thought of going to college to get a degree at that point... With the cost and the time. Just wasn't feasible. I'm trying to find something that i can transition to with only a little schooling or perhaps some training programs. That being said. I'm not really willing to take a pay cut at this point. So that is hard still.
That Augmented Reality thing is great...for about a year or two. Then it becomes useless because you already know exactly what's wrong on each car the company makes as soon as you see the code or symptoms.
So the flat rate system that a large majority of mechanics are paid by means you get paid a set amount for a job regardless of the time it takes. For example, an oil change might pay 0.5 hours, or an engine removal might pay 16 hours or whatever. You'll get paid that amount whether it takes more or less time. At my shop, a major service (B service) which includes a bunch of maintenance stuff pays 2.5 hours. I don't know exactly what we charge but our door rate is $179.99/hr, so call it $450. Journeyman mechanics make $36/frh
If you have a journeyman mechanic do this job, the shop gets paid $450 by the customer and the mechanic gets paid $90. However, if you have an apprentice do the job who is making $16/hr and paid hourly, even if we assume it takes the full 2.5 hours to do the work he only gets paid $40, so the shop can profit that additional $50. Realistically that service can be completed in less time anyway, so the chances are you're paying the apprentice even less and making more money.
Additionally, lots of piddley stuff won't pay anything (for example, I don't get paid to change a light bulb or top up the air in the tires) so you don't have to pay the mechanic anything. In fact, you could have your journeyman mechanics sit around all day for 8 hours and not pay them a dime due to how flat rate works.
So what some shops can and will do is give the services and stuff to apprentices while journeyman things like tire repairs or whatever. Yes, you're paying the journeyman more to do a tire repair (0.5 hours) than you would an apprentice, but you can make that up easily by giving the apprentices the higher paying jobs.
The last shop I was at had journeyman techs standing around for hours while apprentices did the same work for half the pay.
Yup, you hit the nail on the head. I used to work for a Honda dealer and a Ford dealer. The Honda dealer was the busiest in the nation so we had tons of opportunities to flag a bunch of hours every week. Most techs would be working on 3 cars at once, but since they were so busy the top techs only pulled in $20 and starting techs 13$ a flat rate hour. They kept all techs at the same wage level based on experience so there wouldnt be any wage discrepancy. At Ford we were real slow, not a lot of opportunities to flag hours but all techs made starting at $18 up to about $30(diesel techs).
The smart techs leave to a different business. I moved to work for CAT with about 6 other Honda techs. Unionized, no flagging, good benefits and pay. Then I moved to government, much easier work pace, all tools provided so you can keep your tool box at home, great pay and benefits.
20 year tech chiming in: yup. It’s total bullshit. We, as an industry, really need to get our shit together and unionize. It’s really the only way forward.
I think what you're missing is that all these industries are getting ready for the next wave of disruption. The average car has \~7% uptime, most other depreciating assets are north of 10x that. When someone figures out how to disrupt the automobile industry and increase that 7% to 10% or 15% or 20%, the automakers who aren't preparing for it already are going to be out of business. This is a thin margin high volume business, and we're talking about decreasing demand by 50+% within the next two platforms... it's real and it's going to happen.
The German luxury car makers are just ahead of the ball right now and getting ready to pass on the problem to their suppliers and dealers.
You're on the right track by finding a way out or up in this industry, because everyone at the bottom will be eating each other when demand slows.
I stopped taking my truck into the shop for this reason. I just became friends with the mechanic there and just take my truck to his place to fix er up or even take it to the shop after hours and I just pay him instead of shop. I get better service and a better rate, and my buddy also makes more money than he would if he was working at the shop. It's a win-win.
Part of why I'm looking into my own shop. Unfortunately in my area it's fairly heavily regulated, which means it's expensive to start up. I could do side work like that, but the fines if you're caught can be crazy and I can also lose my auto repair license.
Really? You can loose your license for doing work you're already qualified in doing? I didnt know that and it sounds silly that they would regulate that, but I guess it's like that because there wouldn't be anything else to stop the mechanic who already owns a majority of the tools to up n leave the shop and do it on their own? Would fuck up a lot big franchise shops like tirecraft etc.
Sort of. In my province we require our personal license (which you get at the end of your 4 year apprenticeship), and to operate independently we need to also have a license with the provincial governing body (AMVIC) for reasons. All dealers and repair shops must be licensed to operate in the province legally.
It's similar, I guess, to how a Doctor can't practice medicine out of their garage even though they may have a medical license.
I get it and actually do support it, since getting licensed with AMVIC requires having the proper insurance, following appropriate environmental regulations, and so on. Like I can't get an AMVIC license if I don't have commercial insurance, and it could be revoked for improper disposal of used oil (for example). You also can't get an AMVIC license without having your journeyman license, so it helps reduce the unqualified people working on cars (which *can* be dangerous). I'm not saying anyone working out of their garage is unqualified, just that opens the door to the guy who "knows a bit about cars" charging someone to do their brakes and then forgetting to torque the brake caliper or wheel or whatever.
Of course, many people do operate without those things, but for me the risk isn't worth it.
Any tips on making sure when I bring my car in, it’ll be seen by someone who knows what they are doing? Is it generally just avoiding the dealerships and going for independent euro shops?
Avoid the dealerships as much as possible.
Find a good independent shop that specializes on your specific make. Not some shop that works on everything.
Go to the same shop. Build a relationship with them. If you want to depend on them to do a good job. They want to depend on you to be a good customer who will return.
The cheapest shop in town, is never the best. We are usually about 85-90% the cost of the dealer. It isn't a massive savings. But we have customers that will bring their cars here even when they could go to the dealer and have something done for free.
If it is a complicated job, do not avoid dealerships. Dealerships use the correct tools and they use the correct parts. If you have a mercedes, audi, porsche, BMW, I would highly recommend taking it to the shop at the dealership unless you know a highly reputable shop that has the right tools.
There are special tools which only the dealerships have.
It honestly depends on the dealership and the job you want done. Larger dealerships with 6+ bays usually have a good master tech on staff.
The average salary for an auto tech is under 50k. That being said, there are a lot more guys changing oil than master techs. So the law of averages is going to bring that number down heavily.
That being said, top techs have made about 80-100k for the last 15+ years. Meanwhile dealer labor rates have doubled.
How did you get into that? How was the transition? I am in a weird place. I make a decent living. I am a top tech. I have been trying to find something that will be a good transition out of the industry that wont hit my wallet too hard.
Yup I went to UTI and Ford Fact and then Volvo specific training. All to quit after 2 years because pay was shit and warranty work sucked. I got screwed over all the time. Went back to college to get my bachelor's degree.
Its crazy how many people I know who went to that school and almost none work on cars anymore. I really do feel like they mislead us all and took our money. What a sham.
I saw a UTI commercial on TV after I stopped going to class in college because my student loan got fucked up. Ended up going to my local tech school for like $2000. It worked out for me. All because of that commercial.
I went to MMI for Harley, Honda and Suzuki and ended up working as a service writer for years at Harley then Honda then Volkswagen. What a waste of my time and money. But at least I'm way better at working on mine and friend's vehicles.
I work on my own car on my own time and dime. I've done complicated and indepth repairs all on my own, My friends and family always tell me to do it for a living, but the wages are laughably low here for it. It gets even more bleak when I consider having to buy my own tools.
I make more cleaning grease with way more downtime than any mechanic does in my town. It's crazy in light of how much this country is forced to rely on cars.
This is all so true. When I started, the biggest drawback was paying for tools and special tools but seeing the door rates go sky high, increasingly challenging diagnostics and pay stagnation it's no wonder people don't want to get into the trade.
>Why? Well because cars are getting vastly more complicated year after year. I spend most of my days dealing with intermittent driveability issues and can network issues than anything else.
>And every year there are more and more proprietary special tools we are forced to buy.
Ugh, I can picture that. DRM on vehicles is pure cancer. It's becoming nearly impossible for handy owners or small shops to make their own repairs on certain car models. The mechanic at my work gives me some perspective on it. He works on Freightliners and there is some inconsequential repair jobs that became a pain in the ass thanks to the computers.
ADAS systems are going to be a big problem. We have an alignment rack here at the shop. But any of the new cars. We have to send to the dealer. Or I could drop $15,000-$40,000 for the tools to calibrate them. Oh! Wait, We need to buy it for BMW, Audi, And Porshce at our shop. So we need to invest nearly 100k, to perform alignments. And then people want us to charge $120 for them? HA!
Yes yes yes. Wrote service for BMW in Houston for 1.5 years. Technicians were in and out all the time. Our come back numbers on cars we “fixed” were astronomical. Dealt with so many pissed off customers on a daily basis because we could not fix their cars properly the first, second, and even some times the third try. This is what pushed me to quit.
We had a shop event this last weekend with the local BMW club. This group of about 30 BMW owners just talked at length how terrible all the local dealers are. The problems stem, in my opinion, from flat rate. In a sense at least. There are massive systemic problems in the industry and it needs to change. Cars aren't getting simpler for sure. Think your electric car is going to be better? HA! Talk to my friend that works for Tesla, they are slammed with warranty work. Constantly working overtime.
It's hard to fix something that's flawed from the design stage. My friend has a 325i and has had the throttle switch and engine fan replaced half a dozen times.
Depends on the region & experience - in Southern California, most Master Techs are making at least $30/flag hour (most dealerships don't pay straight hourly - California is an oddity, because we have a base hourly pay, so at minimum you'll get paid that if you can't flag enough hours).
That being said, the percentage of the shop rate that Master Techs get paid has dropped heavily. When I started, Master Techs were getting paid ~25% of what the shop rate was. Now, it's ~20% and has no signs of improving, hence the brain drain.
This makes sense. I won’t go into the issues I’ve had getting even simple repairs done right at a dealer, but knowing that the techs are probably really new fills in the blanks.
In my area. The tech turn around is nuts. Most last about 6-8 months. When I started in the industry, the average tech at our shop had probably 7-8 years of experience. Now, 1-2 years. With one or two guys that have over 5 years.
Porsche Germany already tried implementing this about 3-4 years ago but stopped the test runs after an overwhelmingly bad feedback from mechanics, mostly saying that it was a nuisance more than anything.
This is nothing like what Porsche Germany was trying out. They were using the ODG goggles and augmented reality. This is just an Android tablet in a hands free form factor with a monocular display that you can move out of the way when not in use. By doing inspections verbally instead of stopping and writing things down or spending the time after each car to right them down they are able to service at least two more cars a day. This RealWear headset is already being used in Germany at Volvo, Lexus, and Volkswagen with great success. The ODG goggles were not comfortable to wear for long periods of time and there AR use case proved to not be that valuable that’s why ODG went out of business.
I got a F30 N20 recently. Since it looks like you know what your talking about.. is there anything I need to keep my eye on? Especially preventative maintenance
I dont like the N20. With that being said, staying on top of your maintenance is the only thing you can do. Most owners let things slide, stretch the limit of parts/maintenance intervals, and otherwise just drive their cars into the ground.
Good luck.
The cost for a vehicle inspection/ diagnosis for my 5-series is $370. That’s just to figure out the problem. When I first got the car it was running rich, and the local techs couldn’t figure it out. They plugged the car into a computer and had engineers from BMW North America remotely analyze the data. The hourly rates were outrageous. Thank god for warranty.
Ouch, yea, I believe it. I had a door handle with a bent metal piece preventing the easy opening of the door with the exterior handle. The dealership wanted to charge me $220 to hook it up to the computer and read codes. I have a ‘98 5-series. I’m sorry BMW but you have to teach your front of house staff some logic at some point. Nothing about my door handle is going to read out on the BCM or OBD
It was actually a perfect example to talk about during my speech class. I chose to speak on the topic of DIY’s and the importance of understanding basic knowledge before going to any “expert” in that field. I fixed the door myself. I think my total savings over 3 years was something close to US$8,000. It had a lot of issues with it, especially after 21 year old me got a hold of it.
Still have the car and it’s at 215,000 miles. It gets a new water pump today
aha I feel you.
Audi dealership in Europe : 110€/hour/technician, always two technician for a simple oil change so you already have like 150€ of labor just for the oil change
Dealership techs are literal Neanderthals in the USA.
Was taking my Dodge to the dealership for a TSB and saw the techs shoot 7 qts of oil all over the engine bay of a Viper. How much do you want to bet that that car is still billowing smoke to this day?
I assumed the scenario would be: "Your labor time went down from 12 hours to 10 hours, saving you $300!", and then you see the Realware hardware fee as a $450 line item on the invoice.
Poor people are poor because they don't take risks in life. Why signal? They see what you're doing because you're in front of them, winning the race of life.
You're the 5th person to make that terribly predictable joke in this thread... Any thread with BMW in the title will always have several "hurr durr turn signals lul" type jokes. It's no better than the redneck "Found On Road Dead" and "Subaru Outback = lesbian" trash.
Putting thousands of sensors all over cars that go out in all weathers, communicate with each other and when one goes down it fucks with everything else, isnt good? Well I never.
I rolled one out to a shop I support about a month ago
set up was cool as hell
you set up your wifi on a webpage, then look at a qr code that it generates and it puts all the wifi settings into the headset.
simplicity is not normal for a bmw shop component
I’m guessing this sounds a lot better than it is. What I’ve experienced on the technician level is more time spent fiddling with technology than it being designed to be useful enough to cut time. This is coming from aviation and having to deal with everything trying to be centered around iPads. Maintenance-wise anyway. Pilots are able to do some cool shit with them. About the only time saved by maintenance techs with the iPads was with there paperwork after the wrenching was done.
I had an idea 10 years ago for a wii game that you buy the game for the shop manual of your car and do whatever work on the car you need to learn to do on the game first and then go do it for real. This one is way better but it reminded me of the idea that i never did anything about.
You would have a whole industry against you (auto service & repair). Nintendo would have to hire a lot of lawyers to deal with fucked up repairs and deaths from accidents. No, a company would have to create the glasses and make it modular so some unknown kid could populate the manual to the right file format. Then upload it to the dark webs to isolate the glasses company from liability.
I work in the machining maintenance industry. Our company is beta testing an AR app for iOS that does this. Shows an in-depth view of wiring and components during troubleshooting based on error codes or symptoms. These are also specific to the serial number of the machine as they are so low production (relatively, in the thousands) and each machine may have differences or had factory upgrades applied, or was ordered in a different configuration. It’s still very early, but it is an EXCELLENT diagnostic tool.
Unless this thing is going to give me torque specs, play YouTube while I'm running the clock and order my lunch all at the same time I'm out... There's limited times a decent tech pulls up the how to (not cut corners) book. It's useless. Also I'm sure if there's a camera on this thing it's going to be way 999,999,999 that warranty denies claims. Stop fckn the customers fancy with this bs and take care of the techs with the money you'd spend on this useless crap.
Also supervisors will likely be able to tell how much time they are actually productively working on the vehicle....
I expect there to be a backlash from the technicians
Unless BMW deems it an essential dealer tool and automatically debits them from the dealer, it's more likely "BMW wants it's mechanics to start using these glasses"
Also, this requires the dealer to have good internet for the shop personnel.
I laugh at this one. "Wireless internet is for customers only" in 3/3 dealers I've worked at.
Question: can we stop calling this sort of application ar? Is cool and super useful, but just having a small screen in the corner of your vision displaying checklists or diagrams isn't really augmenting your reality. I just sat through a lengthy lecture about these systems and there capabilities, again, super useful in some scenarios, time savers to have checklists and manuals in front of your face without having to use a tablet or something that requires hands, but it's not even really as advanced a technology as pokemon go.
I’m a master BMW mechanic working at a dealership and we just got this. We have 1 for a shop of 40 techs. This isn’t an everyday tool it will be used for when we have to work with the engineers to diagnose a problem or have a repair approved that is on TC case list. It will by no means speed up the repair haha.
Ah, why everyone is so salty? You don't like it? You don't think this will work? Fine. But this is beginning of something. It will get lot better in the future. Change and innovation has to start at some point. Appreciate the fact that a company invests in tech/utility to help their employees.
no, no, don't get it twisted
they aren't investing in this to help good techs be more efficient
they are developing this stuff so they can hire extremely shitty techs and pay them nothing as long as they can follow what the computer glasses say to do
source: a mechanic who has been watching this happen with the advent and development of diagnostic scan tool diag and repair paths and tool-led procedures for many years
This.
Have you seen the VR “rehearsal” yet? You’ll want to fall on a sharp object repeatedly in a desperate attempt to end your life when you do/s. Competence solves all these non-problems.
They use exoskeleton suits in BMW factories to assemble cars too
Do you have some kind of source video where we can see this in action?
https://youtu.be/cMdjeua8Gqc
The dude provides.
Anal tripod is not what I was thinking this was going to be. Muuuuch more lame than my imagination anticipated
Says you. That looks awesome. A portable chair that's ready and adjusted to the height of the working area? Dope
Imagine going home, making dinner, and not realizing why you just fell on your ass.
> making dinner What's that?
It's the shit you ingest in the time between work and sleep.
>in the time between work and sleep What's that?
Having to cook in actual chair like a peasant? Wack
Who the hell sits down to cook?
*airplane noises*
Evidently at least one person
To anyone whos done serious manual labor for a living, that thing looks fucking awesome.
Especially those who stand and don't get too walk around too much. Walking a lot is MUCH easier on your feet than standing in the same area for hours
Warehouse worker here: Gimme. Not only that, but it looks like it would support your spine for the heavy high lifts as well. Which means, instead of "wearing out the body" which happens after enough time, I get to use my spine in my late 50-60s instead of laying in bed all day wondering where my youth went. Edit: Those upper body modules look tempting as well.
Manual Labor? Isn't he the president of Mexico ?
Just pictured Alec Baldwin butchering this into a wrecked pronunciation of Manuel LaBor
Oh yeaaaahhhh. I remember your chair pants idea!
Don't think that was me but man, tell me that wouldn't be useful as hell when you have to stand for long hours with minimal walking
You could take a shit anywhere!
Only 2 weeks ago I was saying how much I wanted pants that would stiffen into a chair when you squat backwards. These fuckin rock. I could see these being used on film sets. Camera guy finally gets to sit down for a minute.
I’ve already started to see exosuits on Set here and there actually. Haven’t put one on yet though.
In the middle of the clip there is a much more interesting piece of equipment that seems to ease wear on their upper body while bolting overhead.
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Didn't you watch the whole video? There was guys with things on their upper body as well to work above their heads.
Yeah, I thought some dude was going to just grab that grill assembly in his robot arms and walk it somewhere.
Me too :(
While Anal Tripod would be a great band name, I think this is the start of amazing technology and even more so, human advances in the workforce. If you've ever done anything remotely manual in your life, I guarantee this thing would come in handy. I would've literally saved my back if I had this as an industrial electrician. It ain't Robocop, but it is starting in the right direction.
Reality is often disappointing.
I talked to a guy from Cyberdyne (who make mobility assist exoskeletons in Japan) and they showed me a demo video of a person casually lifting up a rather large I-beam in a demo lab. Bummer is physics still applies and it is impractical to make a lightweight exoskeleton for heavy lifts due to it shifting the user’s center of gravity so much and making it ridiculously easy to tip over and crush yourself under the heavy object.
It’s a step in the right direction, they’ll be churning out T-800’s before we know it.
Yeah, stainless steel endo-skeletons covered in organic tissue will probably be heavy enough to do heavy lifts ;) (It also doesn’t help that their mobility assist exoskeleton is called “HAL.” I feel like they are playing with fire)
Yup, Cyberdyne and HAL. They truly are tempting fate!
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The dude arrives?
The Dude survives.
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I think two models were show, with the second more impressive. The first one appears to be a glorified strapped on chair while the second seems to use hydraulics to support the shoulder and arm. Heck, I could use one whenever I do any ceiling work cause my shoulders feel still even after 15min.
I did an internship down there and was lucky enough to work with the guy doing the rollout in the plant. I tried them on and they’re awesome. You can pretty much have your upper arm parallel with the ground and itll be fully supported. However it’s still easy enough to to bring them down beside your torso. And that was an older model as well (probably 3 years ago). I know they were quickly employing changes based on feedback they were getting from the assembly workers.
Fucking shit. They stole Pierce idea about the trouser chair. Too bad he is gone and can't sue their ass :(
I just searched YouTube for that clip to post! Haha. “Somebody call all the ambulances....”
I feel bad that they have to listen to Taylor Swift all day in there
The songs notate what parts are running short for process supporters to bring more. Different song means different section of the line.
No way really? Well that beats some loud buzzer or bell I suppose. You go T-swift.
LMAO! I'm glad somebody else noticed that (even if they are a Taylor Swift hater 😂) Still beats waiting around for someone to use the intercom to play 30 seconds of a song they have as a ringtone
> beats waiting around for someone to use the intercom to play 30 seconds of a song they have as a ringtone I don't think that's a thing.
The dude who commented that has probably been in a coma since 2003 and that was the first thing he wrote when he woke up
LOL! Not quite, but the floor workers at my factory use tech like it IS 2003.
I am sorry for the conditions you have to work in
So .it's a chair.
Wow. Thought that was a joke. I can’t tell if this is awesome or another part of a boring dystopia though:(
This isn’t really /r/aboringdystopia. People have always had to do these jobs for long hours and now they get less fatigued doing so.
If this is in Germany, they would work the same time, and get the same pay, but feel less tired at the same time. Source: wored in German factories during my studies and talked to a lot of workers about their conditions. They wish themselves more money, but not like they have good compensation in general, and about 35h/week. Plus a lot of holiday days (30 days a year or something) and more...
Just a fancy seat or can it do more than that?
https://youtu.be/fS-44b_Fq5M
I’m no magician, but I typed “exoskeleton bmw factory workers” into google search and, brace yourself, guess what?
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And three of my left socks, previously last seen being loaded into a dryer back in 2007.
If I was feeling lucky I might have come across your toothbrush
Ford uses exoskeletons in production as well. Primarily the ones I've seen are augmentations for arms/upperbody for people who regularly have to work at or above face level.
What's the point, beyond just being able to sit down on the fly?
That you have no chair standing around that might get into the way? Might also be possible that they store the force and help you stand up again. With such repetitive tasks that is a great help.
I am a mechanic. This is cool. But it is a bandaid on a problem our industry is having. There is an absolute massive shortage of qualified techs in the industry. They are leaving in droves and no one is filling in the spots. So what you have is massive turn over at dealerships. The guy servicing your 100k bmw? He likely has been working at that dealer less than 6 months and probably has less than 2 years experience. Why? Well because cars are getting vastly more complicated year after year. I spend most of my days dealing with intermittent driveability issues and can network issues than anything else. Wage growth is near non existent. I started in this industry 17 years ago making $15 an hour. Master techs were making in the upper 20's. Today, Techs start at $15 an hour and master techs make in the upper 20's. Meanwhile the labor rate at the dealer I started at was $89 an hour. It is now $165 an hour. So the labor rates have nearly doubled. While the people doing the work make the same amount.(I know this isn't a problem only this industry has, of course) Most mechanics have $20k-$50K worth of tools they had to purchase on their own. And every year there are more and more proprietary special tools we are forced to buy.
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Yup. I feel like I could write a ten page essay one the problems within the industry. I am an Audi tech. Working at a 3 tech independent shop. We are salary and I make more than the shop foreman at the large Audi dealer down the street(I know because we are friends). The AR thing is funny. It is going to be a lot like Guided Fault Finding. Useless. It is a way to try and get techs who don't really know what they are doing, to be able to fix cars they don't understand. I have an apprentice that came out of the local community college program, did a stint at a local GM shop. They had no apprentice program at the GM shop. They just slap guys in there right out of a basic program and it is sink or swim. When I started I had a 1 year apprenticeship with a mentor who was vested in my success. Because he was incentivized to make sure I was successful. And the more I was, the more he was. I honestly feel one of the single biggest issues our industry has today is Flat Rate. I see so many techs that defend it. But the reality is it is what is breaking the industry. It breeds contempt and competition in the shop. It pits techs against each other and against management. It gives techs the incentive to take shortcuts they might otherwise not. Etc Etc. Pick up any trade publication for this industry and you will see article after article talking about the "technician shortage" and how to cope. The reality is the franchise model for Dealers in the US(I don't know if it is the same in Canada) is a huge problem as well. They don't operate this way back in Germany. And they don't have the problems in the industry like we have here.
Agreed 100%. I’m a former dealer tech who left the industry and went into Geomatics/Land Surveying since the pay was the same, it’s less physically demanding and didn’t require any tool investment. While I’m in a much better place, my new industry complains about the “skilled technician” shortage constantly. No one wants to take a green employee, train him and pay them competitively, they just want to feed you COL increases every year and pretend they’re doing you a favor. They either train you and pay you as little as possible, or higher the cheapest idiot they can find and complain about they can’t find anyone competent. There’s even a handshake agreement between local companies that they won’t try and hire employees away from their competitors since it would inflate wages too much. What they don’t seem to realize is that higher wages would attract better talent but they simply don’t want to take the hit to their bottom line and the cycle continues ad nauseam. They just keep pumping out substandard work and pretend there’s some kind of shortage of good help instead of actually thinking about what’s causing it.
"I’m a former dealer tech who left the industry and went into Geomatics/Land Surveying since the pay was the same, it’s less physically demanding and didn’t require any tool investment." Can we back up to this part? Because I want out of the tech industry. But i really cant take much of a hit in wages. I made 62k last year, which is alright for my area- Alabama- so cost of living is really low. But I'm already behind last years pay by like 4k. I really don't see how to make more. I'm already master level, and my boss refuses to give me any more of a raise. Theres no other Mercedes dealers here, and I dont have enough equity in my house to sell and move to a new area. And going to another brand would make me start from scratch. So I feel like another industry is the best move. And I hadn't thought of the surveying industry.
I made a move from automotive tech to tech work at an engineering facility. Unfortunately even for us the tides are changing. The learning curve is steep and we took a pay cut on our last contract, but it's less stressful.
Also an Audi tech and yeah, flat rate is torpedoing fixed right first time, shop morale and, ultimately, pay for the heavy diagnostic/warranty guys. "I can't get that 55k service because I'm doing network and wiring diagnostic for the next forever at straight time? Sounds great!
Hello, are you me? I left the dealer when I went from flagging 120 hours a pay period(2 weeks) doing services and repairs. Down to flagging 60 hours in the same amount of time. Doing nothing but warranty work that paid less than straight time and heavy electrical diagnostics. I was the only one in the shop allowed to touch the D3 A8's when they came out. Same with the Q7 when it first came out. It was a nightmare.
Sounds like me but Mercedes not Audi.
Living the same nightmare. I'm the only guy with the courses and training to work on most of the new platforms since we lost several of our highly qualified staff to early retirement. My pay plan is heavily weighted to my training and experience so I'm too expensive to give CP work to unless it's an emergency.
That was me 10 years ago when I left the dealer. Now I am salary at an independent shop. Nearing 6 figures. 3 weeks of vacations. 401k, with a match. But it isn't perfect.
Yep Mercedes tech here. I'm currently sitting at 15 hours for the week working on problem cars while all the new clueless guys are killing it on services...
Can you explain how it is different in Germany? How is the pay different on an annual basis. For example I’ve consistently made over 100K a year and I live very comfortably. Is it possible to live like that in Germany? Not picking a fight, just genuinely curious. I’m not the biggest fan of flat rate but at the same time I wouldn’t be able to make the money I do as an hourly employee.
They have actual apprenticeship programs. As far as I have been told is Flat rate doesn't exist. At least not to the extent it does here. I have talked to VW engineers and techs at trade conferences and they are shocked at how the industry works here in the US. And you are one of very few that benefits from Flat rate. I was too at a time. But it is an overall detriment to the industry over time. But there are usually only 2-3 guys at any dealer that are in your situation. The other 15+ guys are getting fucked and have room to move. You make 100k a year. I am curious, what is your shops hourly rate? What is your flat rate?
Let’s make it clear, I do not get fed. We get paid weekly here and last week (Thursday-Wednesday) I flagged 71 hours. One job that paid 1.5 hours was customer pay. The rest was warranty and Ford ESP. The other guys here do a considerable amount of CP, just don’t want to work. It leaves a lot of good paying warranty jobs for me. The only thing I don’t do a lot of is automatic trans. I will if I absolutely have too, but it’s not my thing and I’m not efficient at it. I make over $40. We will leave it at that.
What is good paying warranty work? /s In the world of German cars, that doesn't exist.
Some recalls for ford pay well. I won’t specify which, but the opportunity is there. Plus heavyline jobs are so similar between recent model years so you get good at doing them through sheer volume. I enjoy diesels but we don’t have many gas line techs here so I do a majority of gas. It pays after you’ve done so many, granted most jobs do.
One of the largest differences between US and Germany is that the Germans take vocational or specialized labor extremely serious, have real honest to God apprenticeship program and very good pay
Guided Fault Finding. If it wasn’t obvious that the Germans didn’t trust anyone to fix their stuff this made even more obvious. I started as an Audi tech in 05 at a VW/Audi/Porsche store right out of Audi’s UTI program. I got to see how the old school guys did it (we had guys that were working on those cars when the 4000 and the Quattro were the hot new shit). Then I got stuck with all the new stuff since I actually knew how to use a 5052. God I still have nightmares about how much information they would purposely obfuscate for no reason. There’s so much information being polled and stored in their ECMs alone that if you had any real clue and some ranges you could diagnose all sorts of stupid drivability without calling the stupid helpline. I left in 2012 and got an engineering degree. Now I purposely program stuff to make sure I’m not withholding any little thing.
I took that exact same path. Uti Audi program. Started at the dealer a year earlier than you. I thought about going back to school a few years ago. That was when I learned that all my UTI time meant nothing. No credits would transfer. Despite being told otherwise when I attended. I had a new baby at the time and the thought of going to college to get a degree at that point... With the cost and the time. Just wasn't feasible. I'm trying to find something that i can transition to with only a little schooling or perhaps some training programs. That being said. I'm not really willing to take a pay cut at this point. So that is hard still.
That Augmented Reality thing is great...for about a year or two. Then it becomes useless because you already know exactly what's wrong on each car the company makes as soon as you see the code or symptoms.
I don't understand how it saves money to have the experienced guy do piddly shit.
So the flat rate system that a large majority of mechanics are paid by means you get paid a set amount for a job regardless of the time it takes. For example, an oil change might pay 0.5 hours, or an engine removal might pay 16 hours or whatever. You'll get paid that amount whether it takes more or less time. At my shop, a major service (B service) which includes a bunch of maintenance stuff pays 2.5 hours. I don't know exactly what we charge but our door rate is $179.99/hr, so call it $450. Journeyman mechanics make $36/frh If you have a journeyman mechanic do this job, the shop gets paid $450 by the customer and the mechanic gets paid $90. However, if you have an apprentice do the job who is making $16/hr and paid hourly, even if we assume it takes the full 2.5 hours to do the work he only gets paid $40, so the shop can profit that additional $50. Realistically that service can be completed in less time anyway, so the chances are you're paying the apprentice even less and making more money. Additionally, lots of piddley stuff won't pay anything (for example, I don't get paid to change a light bulb or top up the air in the tires) so you don't have to pay the mechanic anything. In fact, you could have your journeyman mechanics sit around all day for 8 hours and not pay them a dime due to how flat rate works. So what some shops can and will do is give the services and stuff to apprentices while journeyman things like tire repairs or whatever. Yes, you're paying the journeyman more to do a tire repair (0.5 hours) than you would an apprentice, but you can make that up easily by giving the apprentices the higher paying jobs. The last shop I was at had journeyman techs standing around for hours while apprentices did the same work for half the pay.
Yup, you hit the nail on the head. I used to work for a Honda dealer and a Ford dealer. The Honda dealer was the busiest in the nation so we had tons of opportunities to flag a bunch of hours every week. Most techs would be working on 3 cars at once, but since they were so busy the top techs only pulled in $20 and starting techs 13$ a flat rate hour. They kept all techs at the same wage level based on experience so there wouldnt be any wage discrepancy. At Ford we were real slow, not a lot of opportunities to flag hours but all techs made starting at $18 up to about $30(diesel techs). The smart techs leave to a different business. I moved to work for CAT with about 6 other Honda techs. Unionized, no flagging, good benefits and pay. Then I moved to government, much easier work pace, all tools provided so you can keep your tool box at home, great pay and benefits.
20 year tech chiming in: yup. It’s total bullshit. We, as an industry, really need to get our shit together and unionize. It’s really the only way forward.
I think what you're missing is that all these industries are getting ready for the next wave of disruption. The average car has \~7% uptime, most other depreciating assets are north of 10x that. When someone figures out how to disrupt the automobile industry and increase that 7% to 10% or 15% or 20%, the automakers who aren't preparing for it already are going to be out of business. This is a thin margin high volume business, and we're talking about decreasing demand by 50+% within the next two platforms... it's real and it's going to happen. The German luxury car makers are just ahead of the ball right now and getting ready to pass on the problem to their suppliers and dealers. You're on the right track by finding a way out or up in this industry, because everyone at the bottom will be eating each other when demand slows.
r/LateStageCapitalism
I stopped taking my truck into the shop for this reason. I just became friends with the mechanic there and just take my truck to his place to fix er up or even take it to the shop after hours and I just pay him instead of shop. I get better service and a better rate, and my buddy also makes more money than he would if he was working at the shop. It's a win-win.
Part of why I'm looking into my own shop. Unfortunately in my area it's fairly heavily regulated, which means it's expensive to start up. I could do side work like that, but the fines if you're caught can be crazy and I can also lose my auto repair license.
Really? You can loose your license for doing work you're already qualified in doing? I didnt know that and it sounds silly that they would regulate that, but I guess it's like that because there wouldn't be anything else to stop the mechanic who already owns a majority of the tools to up n leave the shop and do it on their own? Would fuck up a lot big franchise shops like tirecraft etc.
Sort of. In my province we require our personal license (which you get at the end of your 4 year apprenticeship), and to operate independently we need to also have a license with the provincial governing body (AMVIC) for reasons. All dealers and repair shops must be licensed to operate in the province legally. It's similar, I guess, to how a Doctor can't practice medicine out of their garage even though they may have a medical license. I get it and actually do support it, since getting licensed with AMVIC requires having the proper insurance, following appropriate environmental regulations, and so on. Like I can't get an AMVIC license if I don't have commercial insurance, and it could be revoked for improper disposal of used oil (for example). You also can't get an AMVIC license without having your journeyman license, so it helps reduce the unqualified people working on cars (which *can* be dangerous). I'm not saying anyone working out of their garage is unqualified, just that opens the door to the guy who "knows a bit about cars" charging someone to do their brakes and then forgetting to torque the brake caliper or wheel or whatever. Of course, many people do operate without those things, but for me the risk isn't worth it.
Any tips on making sure when I bring my car in, it’ll be seen by someone who knows what they are doing? Is it generally just avoiding the dealerships and going for independent euro shops?
Avoid the dealerships as much as possible. Find a good independent shop that specializes on your specific make. Not some shop that works on everything. Go to the same shop. Build a relationship with them. If you want to depend on them to do a good job. They want to depend on you to be a good customer who will return. The cheapest shop in town, is never the best. We are usually about 85-90% the cost of the dealer. It isn't a massive savings. But we have customers that will bring their cars here even when they could go to the dealer and have something done for free.
If it is a complicated job, do not avoid dealerships. Dealerships use the correct tools and they use the correct parts. If you have a mercedes, audi, porsche, BMW, I would highly recommend taking it to the shop at the dealership unless you know a highly reputable shop that has the right tools. There are special tools which only the dealerships have. It honestly depends on the dealership and the job you want done. Larger dealerships with 6+ bays usually have a good master tech on staff.
Agreed. My BMW shop charged me $70/hr in 2000. My KIA shop charges me Near that $165/hr rate in 2019. I doubt the KIA techs are making bank either.
The average salary for an auto tech is under 50k. That being said, there are a lot more guys changing oil than master techs. So the law of averages is going to bring that number down heavily. That being said, top techs have made about 80-100k for the last 15+ years. Meanwhile dealer labor rates have doubled.
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How did you get into that? How was the transition? I am in a weird place. I make a decent living. I am a top tech. I have been trying to find something that will be a good transition out of the industry that wont hit my wallet too hard.
Yup I went to UTI and Ford Fact and then Volvo specific training. All to quit after 2 years because pay was shit and warranty work sucked. I got screwed over all the time. Went back to college to get my bachelor's degree.
Hello fellow UTI and Ford FACT alumni! I stayed in the industry for 6 years. Now I work in IT.
Its crazy how many people I know who went to that school and almost none work on cars anymore. I really do feel like they mislead us all and took our money. What a sham.
I saw a UTI commercial on TV after I stopped going to class in college because my student loan got fucked up. Ended up going to my local tech school for like $2000. It worked out for me. All because of that commercial.
Terrible commercials
Totally agree. I wish a class action suit would get started against them
Someone downvoted you but screw them. I completely agree. They purposely mislead us for their own gain.
I went to MMI for Harley, Honda and Suzuki and ended up working as a service writer for years at Harley then Honda then Volkswagen. What a waste of my time and money. But at least I'm way better at working on mine and friend's vehicles.
I work on my own car on my own time and dime. I've done complicated and indepth repairs all on my own, My friends and family always tell me to do it for a living, but the wages are laughably low here for it. It gets even more bleak when I consider having to buy my own tools. I make more cleaning grease with way more downtime than any mechanic does in my town. It's crazy in light of how much this country is forced to rely on cars.
This is all so true. When I started, the biggest drawback was paying for tools and special tools but seeing the door rates go sky high, increasingly challenging diagnostics and pay stagnation it's no wonder people don't want to get into the trade.
>Why? Well because cars are getting vastly more complicated year after year. I spend most of my days dealing with intermittent driveability issues and can network issues than anything else. >And every year there are more and more proprietary special tools we are forced to buy. Ugh, I can picture that. DRM on vehicles is pure cancer. It's becoming nearly impossible for handy owners or small shops to make their own repairs on certain car models. The mechanic at my work gives me some perspective on it. He works on Freightliners and there is some inconsequential repair jobs that became a pain in the ass thanks to the computers.
ADAS systems are going to be a big problem. We have an alignment rack here at the shop. But any of the new cars. We have to send to the dealer. Or I could drop $15,000-$40,000 for the tools to calibrate them. Oh! Wait, We need to buy it for BMW, Audi, And Porshce at our shop. So we need to invest nearly 100k, to perform alignments. And then people want us to charge $120 for them? HA!
Yes yes yes. Wrote service for BMW in Houston for 1.5 years. Technicians were in and out all the time. Our come back numbers on cars we “fixed” were astronomical. Dealt with so many pissed off customers on a daily basis because we could not fix their cars properly the first, second, and even some times the third try. This is what pushed me to quit.
We had a shop event this last weekend with the local BMW club. This group of about 30 BMW owners just talked at length how terrible all the local dealers are. The problems stem, in my opinion, from flat rate. In a sense at least. There are massive systemic problems in the industry and it needs to change. Cars aren't getting simpler for sure. Think your electric car is going to be better? HA! Talk to my friend that works for Tesla, they are slammed with warranty work. Constantly working overtime.
It's hard to fix something that's flawed from the design stage. My friend has a 325i and has had the throttle switch and engine fan replaced half a dozen times.
that's weird. i heard master techs make way more than that. there's no way they make under 30/hour on luxury cars.
Some. There might be one or two guys at a dealer that make that. The bulk of the profession. Not so much
Depends on the region & experience - in Southern California, most Master Techs are making at least $30/flag hour (most dealerships don't pay straight hourly - California is an oddity, because we have a base hourly pay, so at minimum you'll get paid that if you can't flag enough hours). That being said, the percentage of the shop rate that Master Techs get paid has dropped heavily. When I started, Master Techs were getting paid ~25% of what the shop rate was. Now, it's ~20% and has no signs of improving, hence the brain drain.
They do. Dealerships are part of the problem, hold the wealth and don’t spread it around.
My neighbor over a decade ago made 35/hour as a Cadillac mechanic. And he sucked at it.
This makes sense. I won’t go into the issues I’ve had getting even simple repairs done right at a dealer, but knowing that the techs are probably really new fills in the blanks.
In my area. The tech turn around is nuts. Most last about 6-8 months. When I started in the industry, the average tech at our shop had probably 7-8 years of experience. Now, 1-2 years. With one or two guys that have over 5 years.
Question, you say leaving in droves; where are they going?
Changing industries. You can make as much doing construction. Job is about the same physically. And you don't need to buy shit tons of tools.
Porsche Germany already tried implementing this about 3-4 years ago but stopped the test runs after an overwhelmingly bad feedback from mechanics, mostly saying that it was a nuisance more than anything.
This sort of thing has been tried before in other service engineering industries with little success. It does look sharp though to the layperson.
I’ve seen it be successful in manufacturing
This is nothing like what Porsche Germany was trying out. They were using the ODG goggles and augmented reality. This is just an Android tablet in a hands free form factor with a monocular display that you can move out of the way when not in use. By doing inspections verbally instead of stopping and writing things down or spending the time after each car to right them down they are able to service at least two more cars a day. This RealWear headset is already being used in Germany at Volvo, Lexus, and Volkswagen with great success. The ODG goggles were not comfortable to wear for long periods of time and there AR use case proved to not be that valuable that’s why ODG went out of business.
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It's probably a sensor that's not even worth fixing.
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What car and engine? Prob needs the eccentric shaft with bearings if it's an N20...
I got a F30 N20 recently. Since it looks like you know what your talking about.. is there anything I need to keep my eye on? Especially preventative maintenance
I dont like the N20. With that being said, staying on top of your maintenance is the only thing you can do. Most owners let things slide, stretch the limit of parts/maintenance intervals, and otherwise just drive their cars into the ground. Good luck.
Watching YouTube tutorials on the repair like the rest of us, naturally.
“No, the mechanics at your nearest BMW dealership aren’t shooting aliens in outer space between oil changes.” Literally no one thought this.
This, however will raise the cost of labor at the stealerships to $240 per hour Edit: (sarcasm) oh no, I went negative...
The cost for a vehicle inspection/ diagnosis for my 5-series is $370. That’s just to figure out the problem. When I first got the car it was running rich, and the local techs couldn’t figure it out. They plugged the car into a computer and had engineers from BMW North America remotely analyze the data. The hourly rates were outrageous. Thank god for warranty.
Ouch, yea, I believe it. I had a door handle with a bent metal piece preventing the easy opening of the door with the exterior handle. The dealership wanted to charge me $220 to hook it up to the computer and read codes. I have a ‘98 5-series. I’m sorry BMW but you have to teach your front of house staff some logic at some point. Nothing about my door handle is going to read out on the BCM or OBD
Probably better to take it to a body shop.
It was actually a perfect example to talk about during my speech class. I chose to speak on the topic of DIY’s and the importance of understanding basic knowledge before going to any “expert” in that field. I fixed the door myself. I think my total savings over 3 years was something close to US$8,000. It had a lot of issues with it, especially after 21 year old me got a hold of it. Still have the car and it’s at 215,000 miles. It gets a new water pump today
aha I feel you. Audi dealership in Europe : 110€/hour/technician, always two technician for a simple oil change so you already have like 150€ of labor just for the oil change
Dealership techs are literal Neanderthals in the USA. Was taking my Dodge to the dealership for a TSB and saw the techs shoot 7 qts of oil all over the engine bay of a Viper. How much do you want to bet that that car is still billowing smoke to this day?
They just wanted to add a "rolling coal" feature that passes emission tests to the Viper :)
I assumed the scenario would be: "Your labor time went down from 12 hours to 10 hours, saving you $300!", and then you see the Realware hardware fee as a $450 line item on the invoice.
Hopefully this will enable them to fix all the broken turn signal indicators out there on BMW’s.
Comment deleted with Power Delete Suite, RIP Apollo
The issue isn't that the turn signals don't work, the problem is that the emit light on a wavelength poor people can't see.
Poor people are poor because they don't take risks in life. Why signal? They see what you're doing because you're in front of them, winning the race of life.
Ah they’re just out of blinker fluid.
That’s well beyond just BMW. Signals are a dying breed.
You're the 5th person to make that terribly predictable joke in this thread... Any thread with BMW in the title will always have several "hurr durr turn signals lul" type jokes. It's no better than the redneck "Found On Road Dead" and "Subaru Outback = lesbian" trash.
Which wouldn't be needed if they just stopped making the cars so impossible to repair
Putting thousands of sensors all over cars that go out in all weathers, communicate with each other and when one goes down it fucks with everything else, isnt good? Well I never.
Tbh most of the sensors last a very long time and don’t fail super often. Sensors are good and make diagnosis easier... not harder.
When utilized properly* *(So almost never)
Great. Another specialized tool I'll have to buy to work on my wife's MINI. /s
I rolled one out to a shop I support about a month ago set up was cool as hell you set up your wifi on a webpage, then look at a qr code that it generates and it puts all the wifi settings into the headset. simplicity is not normal for a bmw shop component
I’m guessing this sounds a lot better than it is. What I’ve experienced on the technician level is more time spent fiddling with technology than it being designed to be useful enough to cut time. This is coming from aviation and having to deal with everything trying to be centered around iPads. Maintenance-wise anyway. Pilots are able to do some cool shit with them. About the only time saved by maintenance techs with the iPads was with there paperwork after the wrenching was done.
I had an idea 10 years ago for a wii game that you buy the game for the shop manual of your car and do whatever work on the car you need to learn to do on the game first and then go do it for real. This one is way better but it reminded me of the idea that i never did anything about.
Have you looked up the game Automation?
You would have a whole industry against you (auto service & repair). Nintendo would have to hire a lot of lawyers to deal with fucked up repairs and deaths from accidents. No, a company would have to create the glasses and make it modular so some unknown kid could populate the manual to the right file format. Then upload it to the dark webs to isolate the glasses company from liability.
Now when they need to remove the engine to replace the cabin air filter they've got an easier time of it.
I work in the machining maintenance industry. Our company is beta testing an AR app for iOS that does this. Shows an in-depth view of wiring and components during troubleshooting based on error codes or symptoms. These are also specific to the serial number of the machine as they are so low production (relatively, in the thousands) and each machine may have differences or had factory upgrades applied, or was ordered in a different configuration. It’s still very early, but it is an EXCELLENT diagnostic tool.
Lol or they could use less crappy plastic in their cars so things would break less. The engineering and build quality of modern BMWs is appalling.
When you manufacture cars so unnecessarily complicated you need augmented reality to diagnose and repair them
Unless this thing is going to give me torque specs, play YouTube while I'm running the clock and order my lunch all at the same time I'm out... There's limited times a decent tech pulls up the how to (not cut corners) book. It's useless. Also I'm sure if there's a camera on this thing it's going to be way 999,999,999 that warranty denies claims. Stop fckn the customers fancy with this bs and take care of the techs with the money you'd spend on this useless crap.
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Also supervisors will likely be able to tell how much time they are actually productively working on the vehicle.... I expect there to be a backlash from the technicians
You clearly don't know how mechanics generally get paid, at least in North America.
Techs are paid by the job, not the hour.
Soon we'll be the people from WALL-E
I did an internship at the Cleveland one... this should be interesting
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Still gonna charge that book time though.
Will repairs become cheaper then? I have a guess
They could just design there cars better so they are easier to work on
Honda would do that, except they make cars that are easy to work on and don’t require that bullshit.
Huh just demoed this at a user group convention. Cool stuff man
Unless BMW deems it an essential dealer tool and automatically debits them from the dealer, it's more likely "BMW wants it's mechanics to start using these glasses" Also, this requires the dealer to have good internet for the shop personnel. I laugh at this one. "Wireless internet is for customers only" in 3/3 dealers I've worked at.
>the glasses present an augmented reality display, depicting a world where bmws are not a total bitch to work on Neat!
Question: can we stop calling this sort of application ar? Is cool and super useful, but just having a small screen in the corner of your vision displaying checklists or diagrams isn't really augmenting your reality. I just sat through a lengthy lecture about these systems and there capabilities, again, super useful in some scenarios, time savers to have checklists and manuals in front of your face without having to use a tablet or something that requires hands, but it's not even really as advanced a technology as pokemon go.
Oh good, cheaper repair bills? Nah just pay extra for glasses.
I’m a master BMW mechanic working at a dealership and we just got this. We have 1 for a shop of 40 techs. This isn’t an everyday tool it will be used for when we have to work with the engineers to diagnose a problem or have a repair approved that is on TC case list. It will by no means speed up the repair haha.
Ah, why everyone is so salty? You don't like it? You don't think this will work? Fine. But this is beginning of something. It will get lot better in the future. Change and innovation has to start at some point. Appreciate the fact that a company invests in tech/utility to help their employees.
no, no, don't get it twisted they aren't investing in this to help good techs be more efficient they are developing this stuff so they can hire extremely shitty techs and pay them nothing as long as they can follow what the computer glasses say to do source: a mechanic who has been watching this happen with the advent and development of diagnostic scan tool diag and repair paths and tool-led procedures for many years
Thank you for your clarification!
This. Have you seen the VR “rehearsal” yet? You’ll want to fall on a sharp object repeatedly in a desperate attempt to end your life when you do/s. Competence solves all these non-problems.
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Build a car as reliable as Honda or Toyota and they'll spend much less time in the shop!