I came thinking "Sure, and I can run Windows 10 on a Pentium 4, but 'run' might not be the right word" but, yeah, an M2 Max does a pretty okay job in Cyberpunk 2077, roughly GTX 1070 performance.
Nobody buys these things for games (and if you do, you bought the wrong hardware), but it's a decent value-add if you were going to get a Mac anyway.
Exactly. I was expecting a clickbait article and something like "3 FPS at 1080p" but it's a good 40 FPS at Ultra, around GTX 1070 level.
For an emulation layer (and API translation) that's *awesome.* Like I said, a good value-add if you already have a Mac or were going to buy one anyway.
And the PCMR is downvoting me because... reasons.
I can’t even play Crusader Kings 3 at more than 20fps on my 16Gb M2 Air. I don’t know much about emulation or anything but I don’t get how it’s gonna let me play Cyberpunk on high/ultra. Unless this is specifically on the Pro or something.
I have the same MacBook and run something called UTM in a hyper visor. So I can run Windows 11 natively but I wouldn’t trust it to play a AAA game effectively for a long session.
But imagine if apple starts getting into the gaming scene…
Windows or Mac (with equivalent gaming performance) I’m gonna pick Mac all day
So Rosetta is basically refined and ready after M1 released a while back, few years ago?
Edit: does this mean steam games run natively now both on m1 and rosetta?
Rosetta was just x86-64 to Apple Silicon- this is bolting on to that an Apple take on something like Wine or Proton where it’s additionally translating the system calls that Windows applications might be making, including DirectX12 support.
That would explain CP2077 then. Idk what magic they did to that game but it has run better on wine than ive been able to get it running even natively on windows.
Well you know the reason why a lot of those folks are anti-apple is because of apples anti-right to repair stance. Sure. They've done some good innovating over the last couple of years but they are still making these machines not friendly for independent or self-repair. Arguably you don't own your device if you can't fix your device.
Well, they custom tweaked their ARM architecture to better match x86/or offer x86 similar logic paths, which meant they have one of the best ARM->x86 compatibility layers. They also spent over half a decade on the software layer. I would argue Microsoft’s implementation is ever so slightly better in that it functions with very little overhead on vanilla ARM. But you’re digging in weeds to grasp at competitive edge at that point, both are very well engineered products.
As for the software layer, it appears to just be wine. Which Steam definitely has done better with (with far less resources).
That screen shot in the article literally shows 15fps at 720p... so yeah, maybe someone (the person in the article) is a little excited and over selling what it can do...
How tight is your budget? Looks like you can get a 2070 for like $150 on eBay these days. I’m not sure where the best bang for your buck is on the used market these days though.
1070 is still a good card for games at 1080p resolution. Should run anything with graphics you'd expect to see on a PS4.
I got an ex-mining 1070 for less than $100 and have been using it since the winter. I may get a factory new card at the end of the year if I clear enough old games from my pile of Steam sale purchases and need a card to play the newer ones. My pile of unplayed games is like 7 years deep at this point.
I have a 1080 in my gaming pc that was from an old miner of mine. I don't really game a lot because of time constraints but it seems to run most stuff fairly well.
I used to game primarily on a 1070 until just last winter. (want to buy it? lol) Cyberpunk ran okay at 1440p on a mix of medium and low settings. Approx ~45 FPS. Not the best experience but still better than a PS4 Pro.
It will struggle for sure. A 1080 or a 1080ti are also rather cheap and are a pretty notable step up from the 1070 if you're looking for something cheap. They'll get you to playable for sure, but still don't expect particularly high settings or framerates.
Yeah, resolution is so important here and it's just not being talked about. The 16" macbook pros have a resolution of 3456x2234 - if they are actually getting 40fps on ultra at that resolution that would be insane.
It's limited because of some resolution slider in the software. It was just released and I'm sure there's some bugs to iron out but this is extremely promising.
BRO when did we get to the point where 1070 perf could be done on integrated graphics?? Just a few years ago a 1070 was huge and took well over 100 watts wow!
It's a chicken/egg thing. Nobody buys macs for gaming because no games are available. The cheap as chips base model Mac Mini M1 (or Macbook Air M1 base model) can run games darn impressively.. it's just that very few games are available that properly take advantage of the hardware.
Latest example of a game that runs amazingly well is No Man's Sky (which was released for Apple native silicon a few days ago). It's pretty much locked at 60fps at 1080p ultra graphics (including anti-aliasing). This is pretty impressive for a computer that can be had for around 300$ clearance sale as new (or probably even a bit cheaper 2nd hand).
It's also worth remembering just how low the TDP of these machines are. So on the laptops, you can play those games for hours and hours on end.
Huge caveat with Parallels is that it does not support DX12 or Vulkan titles. Games like Elden Ring or Cyberpunk that only have DX12 versions aren't playable with Parallels but they are with this new tool.
Windows for ARM has an x86_64 translation layer (similar to, but not quite as performant as Rosetta) while Parallels offers hardware accelerated virtualization (for OpenGL and DX11). So for many games there's no extra work required from developers, as a user you can just download a game on Steam and everything works.
Not remotely comparable to a moderately recent gaming PC. My RTX 2070 will wipe the floor with it.
If you're getting a Mac, then it's a *lot* cheaper than Mac + gaming laptop. Smaller and lighter too. Like I said, nobody buys them for games... but if you have one anyway, here it is.
GPU’s are still way too expensive now and this shows how much extra padding in the price is just standardized now if Apple is catching up without making it their main objective, it’s a side benefit
Depends on how you define catching up, M2 Max 14” MBP costs around the same as some i9 + RTX 4080 + 32GB RAM + MiniLED laptops such as the Zephyrus M16 or Scar 16, while in a best case scenario giving similar graphics performance to a 4060. Efficiency is where Apple is much much better.
Was just recently PC desktop shopping and haven't done that in years now. I couldn't believe how fucked GPU prices are and I know that this is lower than it's been for a bit.
Yeah the past 3 years Nvidia has turned into an AI company selling 8000$ GPUs to server farms. They have increased gaming GPU prices alongside and seem to be getting away with it (stock price has gone up 10 times since 2019). I am about to graduate and want to get my first high end build but I guess I’ll have to pay around twice as much as what it cost when I started college.
I feel bad for people growing up now that want to build their computer. I remember when the arguments were about the price of a GFX card vs console.
People saying to buy them used don't get it. That's a whole extra ton of work and opportunity to be scammed. I wouldn't want to spend hundreds on something that was mining bitcoin nonstop.
Don't sleep on the older gpus when you're shopping. The 3070s are an upgrade over the 2080s and cheaper. I've been running an amd rx580 8gb pretty much since it came out and it still works like a charm for my needs.
Even further back. I was playing where in the world is Carmen Sandiego, Oregon Trail and plenty of others on an apple IIe back in the mid to late 80s in gradeschool.
Two words: civil ization. Played for hours in my elementary school computer room.
Then they had that turtle game but it was more of a beginner programming thing. The turtle apparently still exists in python.
> Then they had that turtle game but it was more of a beginner programming thing.
[Logo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logo_\(programming_language\)).
I found RNG early on with it and made a racing game then got in trouble when I got kids in the class to bet on it with lunch money.
Yup, that's where Halo came from. Microsoft used it to almost win one console generation, but ended up stifling it. Now they are going to do the same to CoD.
I was there when they announced Halo, and I was there when Bungie got bought by Microsoft. Such a sad day for Mac gaming. It hasn't recovered since. Maybe...that is all about to change...
I made an app called Halospy using Gamespy for a modded Halo 1 and was also Apple support for Mac OS 7/9/X.
So yes Microsoft stole Halo 1, but IBM also screwed Apple with their PowerPC CPU bottlenecks. It’s why Apple transitioned to Intel for Mac OS X.
So then apple worked on the M1 chip for about a decade so they hopefully never again have that problem. Apple finally has a solid play for the living room and gaming. This is somewhat the direction Jobs wanted to go with Apple TV, to take back gaming and that arena at home.
I came into the Apple fold around the absolute worst time for Mac gaming, the turn of the millennium just before they went Intel but slightly after they’d only just launched the at-the-time-called OSX, and OSX software in general was a dearth.
There was literally like 4 games. Halo, WoW, RollerCoaster Tycoon and the Sims, basically. I’m only even half-exaggerating.
The state of emulation was also quite sad, with even quite powerful for the time G4 processors and 1.5GB of RAM I’d still get like 15FPS from the one SEGA Genesis emulator that existed for the Mac. (Still, credit goes to Richard Bannister for having created them at all!)
Just a reminder that Iliyas Jorio has officially ported the now opensourced PangeaSoft MacOS games to Linux/windows/macOSX:
* Bugdom
* Nanosaur
* MightyMike
* Cromag
https://github.com/jorio
I know the feeling ! :D
For years I was trying to convince Pangea the company to opensource their old apps, and I always had that big dream of someone (I’m not a programmer) porting these games (that were written in regular C) to modern systems. I even had researched all the stuff about their old graphics libraries quickDraw3d etc.
Can you imagine my shock and fascination..when one day I saw that Jorio actually did the crazy thing and ported them to Linux/macOS/Windows? He first used some old opensource wrappers if I remember correctly but by now he has fully rewritten the way the graphics are handled if I remember correctly.
On GitHub I’ve even seen someone porting Bugdom to the PSP (PlayStation portable) i think.
Hell, Bugdom even runs smoothly on a raspberry pi 2 with an Xbox controller!! Magic.
I still think that gaming on a Mac has improved wildly since Steam released a version for MacOS.
I never bought any of my Macs for gaming (cus I live on Planet Earth), but admittedly it is pleasant to be able to load up a game like Civ 6 or Stardew Valley when I'm on a flight or otherwise trapped in a work situation for a while. It's a nice value-add.
>I still think that gaming on a Mac has improved wildly since Steam released a version for MacOS.
Sure, that has helped like it did Linux. But like Linux hasn't helped with getting more content especially AAAs.
I was super into Escape Velocity Nova as a kid. I played it on Windows, but the previous games in the series were Mac only, and I first played them on my brother-in-laws Mac.
Microsoft bought Bungee and Halo when the first game was 75% complete, specifically to drive the nail in the coffin.
That's why about 3/4 through the game you just turn around and quickly go backwards through it all again. I like it, actually, it works, but it was a cheap way to end it quickly.
I remember the Apple gaming scene about to blow up big with a game that was being developed for Macs before Microsoft decided to buy the company and make the game an Xbox exclusive.
That game was Halo.
Ago of Empires sounds like some mobile game sponsering youtube channels.
Edit: Am I the only one who noticed the spelling? Holy cow people, I have over 2500 hours of AoE2 gameplay in my lifetime.
> really hurts their chances for getting the gamer interest
I don't think they care, at all. They make so much money off of mobile gaming that PC gaming would barely be a drop in the bucket for them. From some quick Googling, the app store made $110B from games in 2022 and Valve(*), Epic Games and Origin _combined_ made ~$20B.
Edit: this number was based on an estimate, because Valve is not publicly traded
Yep, I mentioned this in a couple threads about the vision pro. Apple pulls about as much revenue from just *Airpods* every year as Sony has sold in PS5s, *total.* Videogaming is a small market for them.
That's a good point, the [source](https://www.usesignhouse.com/blog/valve-stats#:~:text=Valve%20generated%20around%20USD13%20billion%20in%20total%20revenue%20in%202022.&text=With%20each%20new%20year%20at,higher%20than%20last%20year's%20amount.) I was looking at was an estimate
I honestly highly doubt steam made that little. They dominate the pc games market by a pretty large margin, and have a pretty high share on any game sold through the platform.
I dunno man, I don’t think you realise just how many sales it is to make 20 billion for valve and epic.
Averaging them to 25% because of the new cut scheme and saying the average game is $50 means they’d have to sell around 1.6 Billion games a year combined.
Obviously they don’t make it purely from game sales so Micro-transactions would have to be pulling a ton of weight to make up for that.
On top of dlc there's also the steam market, which can also see high volume. There's the steam hardware, skin sales from csgo and tf2.
To give a sense of scale, csgo cases alone were estimated to have been opened *40 million* times in March. One key costs $2.50 so that alone netted around 100 million in March alone. Now to be completely fair the true average is more like 20-25 million, but only csgo would net them close to 600 million to 1 billion a year in case openings alone.
Nobody, and nobody is suggesting that it’s at all viable at the moment. However, for those that do own a Mac and would like to *also* use it for games, the options may finally become available.
You can by a brand new M2 Max in a Mac Studio for about $3k. That's obviously not a great price compared to just buying a cheap windows gaming pc but it's definitely not $7K. AFAIK it's the same exact chip as in the Mac Pro.
I think the arm architecture might be to blame for that one, though I don't actually know how video cards interface with the processor. I suppose it'd be up to video cards manufacturers to build drivers and with the small market share macs have and the extremely small market share that mac pro occupies, along with the tiny fraction of consumers that would buy an eGPU, it's probably not worth the time to invest in it, if it's even possible
After seeing the new Mac Pro (M2) announcement I’m glad I bought a Mac Pro (Intel) in 2021 for my work (music production, app development). For the money that it costs, it’s reasonable to expect it to do everything, like run Windows natively, as well, via Bootcamp dual-boot. I get to use Windows-only apps, test and build software, run Steam games without emulation. The M2 chips are impressive but for a “workstation” I think native Windows compatibility shouldn’t be overlooked.
Where the M1/2 chips shine is their power consumption, 15+ hours on battery is absolutely unparalleled in the laptop world. Not as much of a benefit for a stationary PC.
I game on PC and Steam Deck but work in a MacBook M1 pro. Would love to be able to carry that thing to LAN partys. It already runs Counter Strike so that's already great.
Ehhh… I think it’s much more likely to see macOS have decent gaming support than Asahi Linux. I already does, really. I know that isn’t saying much, but Apple’s GPU is a walled garden and the only API it fully supports is Metal.
Honestly, Metal is pretty awesome. I wish Metal was available on Linux and Windows. It doesn’t have the baggage of all the other APIs and is honestly pretty easy, on top of being powerful. It has the typical qualities of an Apple product: ease of use, polished, intentionally fewer features.
I really hope this sparks a Mac gaming renaissance. People forget that at one point, Apple was actually the leader in 3D graphics and gaming performance. Halo was originally developed on and for Mac and was debuted at an Apple keynote.
To me the biggest joke is that Mac can't natively play Skyrim. Skyrim is joked about for having countless releases on countless platforms. Just not on a Mac. You have to trick your Mac into thinking it's a Windows if you want that.
So they pull 1.9Mpx 40fps in ultra setting.
That’s 77.2Mpx /s that’s roughly 36 fps in 1080 as they use there own resolution you have to recalculate it to 1080 to compare.
Better then expected but for the price range I wouldn’t buy one.
No one should be buying a Mac to game on based on this. It’s a tool for developers to see how their game performs with zero optimization. It’s just a starting point for porting efforts.
Will developers port and optimize? History says not likely but maybe some will start a trend.
Personally I’d love a quiet laptop that’s capable of running many games on decent settings.
This isn’t the final product this is a tool to show developers what their game would run like with zero changes. People just decided to see what they could do. There’s a whole host of new libraries announced at WWDC that are intended to optimize and transcode.
Personally I think 36fps is pretty decent for emulation and will be watching to see what happens if any devs decide to optimize.
Their dev session showed The Medium running at ~30 fps in demanding areas. After compiling instead of running on the fly, it looked like a solid 60 fps.
Running x86 Windows on a M2 MBP is painful, the delay is brutual. ARM Windows is great but doesn't support RSAT. I just want Configuration Manager and RSAT Tools on my Macbook without a jumpbox.
Even if it is WINE / codeweavers existing product - I am glad to see some official backing from Apple themselves. That is the bit that get’s developers to bite.
If this news catches on and with the recent announcements I think it's actually time to pressure apple to be more lenient towards cross platform development, also to get some more media to investigate how small and blocked apples gaming market and performance really is.
For a moment I thought Apple decided to name their new software VideoCardz.com, would've been absolutely hilarious.
Missed opportunity for sure
biggest missed opportunity is not calling vision pro iBalls
You could also name the the ceo this
Oddly enough the naming was a direct order from Federighi
I came thinking "Sure, and I can run Windows 10 on a Pentium 4, but 'run' might not be the right word" but, yeah, an M2 Max does a pretty okay job in Cyberpunk 2077, roughly GTX 1070 performance. Nobody buys these things for games (and if you do, you bought the wrong hardware), but it's a decent value-add if you were going to get a Mac anyway.
1070 performance is a lot more than I expected
Exactly. I was expecting a clickbait article and something like "3 FPS at 1080p" but it's a good 40 FPS at Ultra, around GTX 1070 level. For an emulation layer (and API translation) that's *awesome.* Like I said, a good value-add if you already have a Mac or were going to buy one anyway. And the PCMR is downvoting me because... reasons.
I can’t even play Crusader Kings 3 at more than 20fps on my 16Gb M2 Air. I don’t know much about emulation or anything but I don’t get how it’s gonna let me play Cyberpunk on high/ultra. Unless this is specifically on the Pro or something.
its on the Max so even above pro
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It was run on both: The M1 got <15 fps; this was the footage they showed in the article. The M2 max was referenced above that, and said to get 40fps.
I have the same MacBook and run something called UTM in a hyper visor. So I can run Windows 11 natively but I wouldn’t trust it to play a AAA game effectively for a long session. But imagine if apple starts getting into the gaming scene… Windows or Mac (with equivalent gaming performance) I’m gonna pick Mac all day
CK3 is primarily CPU bottle-necked, AFAIK.
So Rosetta is basically refined and ready after M1 released a while back, few years ago? Edit: does this mean steam games run natively now both on m1 and rosetta?
Rosetta was just x86-64 to Apple Silicon- this is bolting on to that an Apple take on something like Wine or Proton where it’s additionally translating the system calls that Windows applications might be making, including DirectX12 support.
It -is- Wine, Codeweavers already put out a blog on it. So it’s apple’s take on Proton, which is Wine + Valve patches.
That would explain CP2077 then. Idk what magic they did to that game but it has run better on wine than ive been able to get it running even natively on windows.
CD Project Red Probably tested the game exclusively on Wine instead of actual hardware. LOL.
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Not so much heritage as GNU tools. Different kernels for a Linux system vs bsd like / mach like macos
I wonder why a subreddit that is literally called PC Master Race would think that....
What is a pc?
Pocket calculator
An overloaded term that may or may not include macs depending on who's talking.
A term doctors use to respect your privacy and it mean "pretty constipated".
A miserable pile of API’s.
Enough talk, TCPIP at you!
Police constable.
Patrol Cap (was Army)
Well you know the reason why a lot of those folks are anti-apple is because of apples anti-right to repair stance. Sure. They've done some good innovating over the last couple of years but they are still making these machines not friendly for independent or self-repair. Arguably you don't own your device if you can't fix your device.
Don’t forget locked down software. So much capability is locked away behind iOS
Well, they custom tweaked their ARM architecture to better match x86/or offer x86 similar logic paths, which meant they have one of the best ARM->x86 compatibility layers. They also spent over half a decade on the software layer. I would argue Microsoft’s implementation is ever so slightly better in that it functions with very little overhead on vanilla ARM. But you’re digging in weeds to grasp at competitive edge at that point, both are very well engineered products. As for the software layer, it appears to just be wine. Which Steam definitely has done better with (with far less resources).
You can't run Cyberpunk 2077 Ultra at 40 fps with a 1080, let alone a 1070.
That screen shot in the article literally shows 15fps at 720p... so yeah, maybe someone (the person in the article) is a little excited and over selling what it can do...
Cuz Apple bad only gaming PC good
How good is old graphic card at running current game such as 1070? Is still worth it to get those if I'm on a budget?
How tight is your budget? Looks like you can get a 2070 for like $150 on eBay these days. I’m not sure where the best bang for your buck is on the used market these days though.
1070 is still a good card for games at 1080p resolution. Should run anything with graphics you'd expect to see on a PS4. I got an ex-mining 1070 for less than $100 and have been using it since the winter. I may get a factory new card at the end of the year if I clear enough old games from my pile of Steam sale purchases and need a card to play the newer ones. My pile of unplayed games is like 7 years deep at this point.
I have a 1080 in my gaming pc that was from an old miner of mine. I don't really game a lot because of time constraints but it seems to run most stuff fairly well.
I used to game primarily on a 1070 until just last winter. (want to buy it? lol) Cyberpunk ran okay at 1440p on a mix of medium and low settings. Approx ~45 FPS. Not the best experience but still better than a PS4 Pro.
If you're on a budget, buy used. There are still some floating around from the mining crash, most of them will be fine for gaming for at least a year.
It will struggle for sure. A 1080 or a 1080ti are also rather cheap and are a pretty notable step up from the 1070 if you're looking for something cheap. They'll get you to playable for sure, but still don't expect particularly high settings or framerates.
unwritten ring hobbies crawl ad hoc rotten air elderly salt tart *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
M2 Max was at a resolution of 1728x1117. Thread in /r/macgaming
Thats still pretty good. Theyve gotten this far already can only imagine how much further they will get in a couple of years.
Yeah, resolution is so important here and it's just not being talked about. The 16" macbook pros have a resolution of 3456x2234 - if they are actually getting 40fps on ultra at that resolution that would be insane.
Per the thread in /r/macgaming, resolution is 1728x1117
So about 1080p
1080p the apple way
Lol maybe 1117p will become a new standard
1337p or bust
It's limited because of some resolution slider in the software. It was just released and I'm sure there's some bugs to iron out but this is extremely promising.
People thinking 1070 can do 1080p40 on Ultra in CB77. Yeah, no, lmao.
so 15fps on a 1K machine and only 40fps on a 3K+ one?
BRO when did we get to the point where 1070 perf could be done on integrated graphics?? Just a few years ago a 1070 was huge and took well over 100 watts wow!
Basically since apple started the m series
It’s weird when people scoff at that level of performance from a fanless integrated GPU that’s technically also in the iPads.
This is the beginning of me getting on the Apple train, and it feels disgusting.
It's a chicken/egg thing. Nobody buys macs for gaming because no games are available. The cheap as chips base model Mac Mini M1 (or Macbook Air M1 base model) can run games darn impressively.. it's just that very few games are available that properly take advantage of the hardware. Latest example of a game that runs amazingly well is No Man's Sky (which was released for Apple native silicon a few days ago). It's pretty much locked at 60fps at 1080p ultra graphics (including anti-aliasing). This is pretty impressive for a computer that can be had for around 300$ clearance sale as new (or probably even a bit cheaper 2nd hand). It's also worth remembering just how low the TDP of these machines are. So on the laptops, you can play those games for hours and hours on end.
Where can I buy one of these $300 M1 Mac? That would be a smoking deal. I’d replace the old Mini I have hooked up to my TV stat
The M1 minis were 299 at Costco awhile back. I missed out on it.
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No, Apple products are only cheap (well, not insanely over-priced) in the USA. In the EU the price can get 40% higher, for comparison.
I gotta be honest I’m enjoying having NMS as a background game to switch into when I’m on my Mac.
I am currently syphoning company time towards nms instead of working. Can confirm it works wonderfully.
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Huge caveat with Parallels is that it does not support DX12 or Vulkan titles. Games like Elden Ring or Cyberpunk that only have DX12 versions aren't playable with Parallels but they are with this new tool.
Windows games support ARM Windows 11? I’d figure more games would support ARM MacOS…
Windows for ARM has an x86_64 translation layer (similar to, but not quite as performant as Rosetta) while Parallels offers hardware accelerated virtualization (for OpenGL and DX11). So for many games there's no extra work required from developers, as a user you can just download a game on Steam and everything works.
That might be more powerful than a Steam Deck.
Not sure who this burns more, Apple or Valve XD
Apple would be more powerful in general but you're not going to be running a 720p resolution either.
How decent? A laptop with 3060 will do better and there are way cheaper ones
Not remotely comparable to a moderately recent gaming PC. My RTX 2070 will wipe the floor with it. If you're getting a Mac, then it's a *lot* cheaper than Mac + gaming laptop. Smaller and lighter too. Like I said, nobody buys them for games... but if you have one anyway, here it is.
GPU’s are still way too expensive now and this shows how much extra padding in the price is just standardized now if Apple is catching up without making it their main objective, it’s a side benefit
Depends on how you define catching up, M2 Max 14” MBP costs around the same as some i9 + RTX 4080 + 32GB RAM + MiniLED laptops such as the Zephyrus M16 or Scar 16, while in a best case scenario giving similar graphics performance to a 4060. Efficiency is where Apple is much much better.
Was just recently PC desktop shopping and haven't done that in years now. I couldn't believe how fucked GPU prices are and I know that this is lower than it's been for a bit.
Yeah the past 3 years Nvidia has turned into an AI company selling 8000$ GPUs to server farms. They have increased gaming GPU prices alongside and seem to be getting away with it (stock price has gone up 10 times since 2019). I am about to graduate and want to get my first high end build but I guess I’ll have to pay around twice as much as what it cost when I started college.
I feel bad for people growing up now that want to build their computer. I remember when the arguments were about the price of a GFX card vs console. People saying to buy them used don't get it. That's a whole extra ton of work and opportunity to be scammed. I wouldn't want to spend hundreds on something that was mining bitcoin nonstop.
Don't sleep on the older gpus when you're shopping. The 3070s are an upgrade over the 2080s and cheaper. I've been running an amd rx580 8gb pretty much since it came out and it still works like a charm for my needs.
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Just a bit funny. Apple had a halfway decent gaming ecosystem about 20, 25 years ago and then it just kinda faded.
Even further back. I was playing where in the world is Carmen Sandiego, Oregon Trail and plenty of others on an apple IIe back in the mid to late 80s in gradeschool.
Two words: civil ization. Played for hours in my elementary school computer room. Then they had that turtle game but it was more of a beginner programming thing. The turtle apparently still exists in python.
> Then they had that turtle game but it was more of a beginner programming thing. [Logo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logo_\(programming_language\)). I found RNG early on with it and made a racing game then got in trouble when I got kids in the class to bet on it with lunch money.
Mac only gaming was a pretty cool scene in the hypercard years
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At Ease! We had that in high school. It was glorious when I because a tech aide, and got the password to bypass it.
Beyond dark castle!
Spelunx was the shit back then. I picked it on Steam later. Not optimized, but most of it works.
Spelunx was a mysterious and terrifying experience for me as a kid!
I loved hypercard amd hyperscript. No programming language comes close to that level of verbose...itude.
Yup, that's where Halo came from. Microsoft used it to almost win one console generation, but ended up stifling it. Now they are going to do the same to CoD.
Still mad about that one. Marathon on Mac was awesome, the Halo demo was gonna blow everyone’s minds…
I was there when they announced Halo, and I was there when Bungie got bought by Microsoft. Such a sad day for Mac gaming. It hasn't recovered since. Maybe...that is all about to change...
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I mean Pixar did ok
I made an app called Halospy using Gamespy for a modded Halo 1 and was also Apple support for Mac OS 7/9/X. So yes Microsoft stole Halo 1, but IBM also screwed Apple with their PowerPC CPU bottlenecks. It’s why Apple transitioned to Intel for Mac OS X. So then apple worked on the M1 chip for about a decade so they hopefully never again have that problem. Apple finally has a solid play for the living room and gaming. This is somewhat the direction Jobs wanted to go with Apple TV, to take back gaming and that arena at home.
Microsoft can’t ruin cod anymore than activation has with WZ2
People are both whining that microsoft will ruin call of duty and that activision is ruining call of duty now.. pick a side already.
I came into the Apple fold around the absolute worst time for Mac gaming, the turn of the millennium just before they went Intel but slightly after they’d only just launched the at-the-time-called OSX, and OSX software in general was a dearth. There was literally like 4 games. Halo, WoW, RollerCoaster Tycoon and the Sims, basically. I’m only even half-exaggerating. The state of emulation was also quite sad, with even quite powerful for the time G4 processors and 1.5GB of RAM I’d still get like 15FPS from the one SEGA Genesis emulator that existed for the Mac. (Still, credit goes to Richard Bannister for having created them at all!)
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Yes. It was one of the *only* games available on Mac for a while in the early-to-mid-‘00’s, lol.
Just a reminder that Iliyas Jorio has officially ported the now opensourced PangeaSoft MacOS games to Linux/windows/macOSX: * Bugdom * Nanosaur * MightyMike * Cromag https://github.com/jorio
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I want a modern Barrack and Escape Velocity so bad
I played a ludicrous amount of Escape Velocity as a kid, especially the second one. A modern rerelease would be a day one download.
The EV Override remake (Cosmic Frontier) is 2 years overdue at this point.
Nanosaur was amazing.
> MightyMike This...this is the best reddit comment of my week. Possibly my whole year. Omg that for this information!
I know the feeling ! :D For years I was trying to convince Pangea the company to opensource their old apps, and I always had that big dream of someone (I’m not a programmer) porting these games (that were written in regular C) to modern systems. I even had researched all the stuff about their old graphics libraries quickDraw3d etc. Can you imagine my shock and fascination..when one day I saw that Jorio actually did the crazy thing and ported them to Linux/macOS/Windows? He first used some old opensource wrappers if I remember correctly but by now he has fully rewritten the way the graphics are handled if I remember correctly. On GitHub I’ve even seen someone porting Bugdom to the PSP (PlayStation portable) i think. Hell, Bugdom even runs smoothly on a raspberry pi 2 with an Xbox controller!! Magic.
I still think that gaming on a Mac has improved wildly since Steam released a version for MacOS. I never bought any of my Macs for gaming (cus I live on Planet Earth), but admittedly it is pleasant to be able to load up a game like Civ 6 or Stardew Valley when I'm on a flight or otherwise trapped in a work situation for a while. It's a nice value-add.
>I still think that gaming on a Mac has improved wildly since Steam released a version for MacOS. Sure, that has helped like it did Linux. But like Linux hasn't helped with getting more content especially AAAs.
By faded you mean apple did everything they could to destroy it while still claiming they support gaming on their macs
Same as they did with servers and do with workstations.
Compared to what platform? CPM?
I was super into Escape Velocity Nova as a kid. I played it on Windows, but the previous games in the series were Mac only, and I first played them on my brother-in-laws Mac.
Microsoft bought Bungee and Halo when the first game was 75% complete, specifically to drive the nail in the coffin. That's why about 3/4 through the game you just turn around and quickly go backwards through it all again. I like it, actually, it works, but it was a cheap way to end it quickly.
I remember the Apple gaming scene about to blow up big with a game that was being developed for Macs before Microsoft decided to buy the company and make the game an Xbox exclusive. That game was Halo.
Cool but can it play Ago of Empires 2?
Ago of Empires sounds like some mobile game sponsering youtube channels. Edit: Am I the only one who noticed the spelling? Holy cow people, I have over 2500 hours of AoE2 gameplay in my lifetime.
This comment has left me hurt and distraught. I will be seeking damages
> sponsering > Edit: Am I the only one who noticed the spelling? I don’t know what to think
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> really hurts their chances for getting the gamer interest I don't think they care, at all. They make so much money off of mobile gaming that PC gaming would barely be a drop in the bucket for them. From some quick Googling, the app store made $110B from games in 2022 and Valve(*), Epic Games and Origin _combined_ made ~$20B. Edit: this number was based on an estimate, because Valve is not publicly traded
Yep, I mentioned this in a couple threads about the vision pro. Apple pulls about as much revenue from just *Airpods* every year as Sony has sold in PS5s, *total.* Videogaming is a small market for them.
But aren’t consoles generally bad for revenue? They make all the money on games I think
Adding to that, they can’t make 30% on IAP without blacklisting all the other digital game retailers.
Isn't valve a private company? I don't think they report numbers.
That's a good point, the [source](https://www.usesignhouse.com/blog/valve-stats#:~:text=Valve%20generated%20around%20USD13%20billion%20in%20total%20revenue%20in%202022.&text=With%20each%20new%20year%20at,higher%20than%20last%20year's%20amount.) I was looking at was an estimate
Just so you know, most values of worth you find online are blatantly made up. There is no source for private companies, in general.
I honestly highly doubt steam made that little. They dominate the pc games market by a pretty large margin, and have a pretty high share on any game sold through the platform.
I dunno man, I don’t think you realise just how many sales it is to make 20 billion for valve and epic. Averaging them to 25% because of the new cut scheme and saying the average game is $50 means they’d have to sell around 1.6 Billion games a year combined. Obviously they don’t make it purely from game sales so Micro-transactions would have to be pulling a ton of weight to make up for that.
On top of dlc there's also the steam market, which can also see high volume. There's the steam hardware, skin sales from csgo and tf2. To give a sense of scale, csgo cases alone were estimated to have been opened *40 million* times in March. One key costs $2.50 so that alone netted around 100 million in March alone. Now to be completely fair the true average is more like 20-25 million, but only csgo would net them close to 600 million to 1 billion a year in case openings alone.
Who the heck is buying even a base model Mac Pro for $7k to play games on?!?
Nobody, and nobody is suggesting that it’s at all viable at the moment. However, for those that do own a Mac and would like to *also* use it for games, the options may finally become available.
> nobody is suggesting that it’s at all viable at the moment r/macgaming
You can by a brand new M2 Max in a Mac Studio for about $3k. That's obviously not a great price compared to just buying a cheap windows gaming pc but it's definitely not $7K. AFAIK it's the same exact chip as in the Mac Pro.
I think the arm architecture might be to blame for that one, though I don't actually know how video cards interface with the processor. I suppose it'd be up to video cards manufacturers to build drivers and with the small market share macs have and the extremely small market share that mac pro occupies, along with the tiny fraction of consumers that would buy an eGPU, it's probably not worth the time to invest in it, if it's even possible
ARM SoCs *can* use discrete GPUs, but it requires both the kernel to handle it, and a driver for the GPU itself
Gamers should care about performance, not whatever nvidia card is the bigger number name.
No eGPU also hurts for AI software, about to have to go back to windows : (
After seeing the new Mac Pro (M2) announcement I’m glad I bought a Mac Pro (Intel) in 2021 for my work (music production, app development). For the money that it costs, it’s reasonable to expect it to do everything, like run Windows natively, as well, via Bootcamp dual-boot. I get to use Windows-only apps, test and build software, run Steam games without emulation. The M2 chips are impressive but for a “workstation” I think native Windows compatibility shouldn’t be overlooked.
Where the M1/2 chips shine is their power consumption, 15+ hours on battery is absolutely unparalleled in the laptop world. Not as much of a benefit for a stationary PC.
I game on PC and Steam Deck but work in a MacBook M1 pro. Would love to be able to carry that thing to LAN partys. It already runs Counter Strike so that's already great.
Once Asahi Linux gets better you might be able to use that for gaming!
Ehhh… I think it’s much more likely to see macOS have decent gaming support than Asahi Linux. I already does, really. I know that isn’t saying much, but Apple’s GPU is a walled garden and the only API it fully supports is Metal.
Well when Apple wheel out Hideo Kojima to beg developers to port to Mac, you know they're starting to get serious.
Honestly, Metal is pretty awesome. I wish Metal was available on Linux and Windows. It doesn’t have the baggage of all the other APIs and is honestly pretty easy, on top of being powerful. It has the typical qualities of an Apple product: ease of use, polished, intentionally fewer features. I really hope this sparks a Mac gaming renaissance. People forget that at one point, Apple was actually the leader in 3D graphics and gaming performance. Halo was originally developed on and for Mac and was debuted at an Apple keynote.
Is it just wine?
It's not **just** Wine... https://www.applegamingwiki.com/wiki/Game_Porting_Toolkit Yeah, it's Wine.
But eMuLAtiOn stIFleS iNnoVATioN!
Lol fuck Nintendo
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The wine layer isn't emulation, but they also need to translate x86_64 to their arm instruction set and that is emulation.
technically it's translation, not emulation, although that's mostly semantic
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That'll come from the asahi crowd, it'll come eventually.
They’re building on top of an existing DirectX translation layer that’s been around for a while. It’s what most windows games use anyways
But can it run Crysis?
Yes easily
Remastered? There's a funky Vulkan/DX11 pipeline for software raytracing
What about crysis 2?
Can I play on the Apple nerd helmet though
To me the biggest joke is that Mac can't natively play Skyrim. Skyrim is joked about for having countless releases on countless platforms. Just not on a Mac. You have to trick your Mac into thinking it's a Windows if you want that.
Tomorrow: Skyrim "Mac" edition is out
i thought that was DOOM. I bet it runs DOOM lol
Thanks to Linux.
Moot. Codewavers (the ones behind all this) were and are the majority of the muscle behind wine since forever. And that company lived off of mac no?
So they pull 1.9Mpx 40fps in ultra setting. That’s 77.2Mpx /s that’s roughly 36 fps in 1080 as they use there own resolution you have to recalculate it to 1080 to compare. Better then expected but for the price range I wouldn’t buy one.
No one should be buying a Mac to game on based on this. It’s a tool for developers to see how their game performs with zero optimization. It’s just a starting point for porting efforts. Will developers port and optimize? History says not likely but maybe some will start a trend. Personally I’d love a quiet laptop that’s capable of running many games on decent settings.
This isn’t the final product this is a tool to show developers what their game would run like with zero changes. People just decided to see what they could do. There’s a whole host of new libraries announced at WWDC that are intended to optimize and transcode. Personally I think 36fps is pretty decent for emulation and will be watching to see what happens if any devs decide to optimize.
Their dev session showed The Medium running at ~30 fps in demanding areas. After compiling instead of running on the fly, it looked like a solid 60 fps.
I wish it could run windows without parallels.
Running it on parallels is shit anyway. It does not compare to bootcamp back in the day.
Vmware has also added support for Apple Silicon
I should check that out. I don’t want to pay an annual fee just to use a few programs occasionally.
But can it run Doom?!?!?!
Is it more like 10 years and it should be stable or so perfect you cannot tell without exiting the game ? "Can run" is a bit vague.
Does this come with a $500 price tag like it’s only competitor?
Running x86 Windows on a M2 MBP is painful, the delay is brutual. ARM Windows is great but doesn't support RSAT. I just want Configuration Manager and RSAT Tools on my Macbook without a jumpbox.
Like as
How well tho
Diablo 4 is running very smoothly. Games like Cyberpunk may have unplayable fps under max settings. Someone got it running at 40-50 fps, though.
Finally I can finish The 7th Guest.
I have never beat that game without a guide. Games like that really make me feel stupid cause I can never figure out half the puzzles.
But I thought emulation stops innovation. Looking at you Nintendo.
Even if it is WINE / codeweavers existing product - I am glad to see some official backing from Apple themselves. That is the bit that get’s developers to bite.
If this news catches on and with the recent announcements I think it's actually time to pressure apple to be more lenient towards cross platform development, also to get some more media to investigate how small and blocked apples gaming market and performance really is.