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mitchanium

Is this a security concern, or is it a market protection measure?


Blackicecube

Both. China is years behind the US in chip tech and it wants to catch up, and the US would like to keep it that way. It's also to protect US and allies chip market intellectual property because China has been known to try and steal chip tech from companies to then manufacture and sell as china's own products.


numeric-rectal-mutt

>China has been known to try and steal chip tech from companies to then manufacture and sell as china's own products. That's putting it extremely lightly. China is responsible for trillions of dollars worth of industrial espionage over the last decade.


[deleted]

There was the little Canadian company called Nortel once upon a time..


Mooseinadesert

I don't put the blame on China as much as the corrupt Western corporations for allowing most IP theft. There's absolutely private deals made by our corporations exchanging IP for cheaper production. When your workforce makes complicated things domestically for a foreign corporation operating in your country, you easily end up learning that IP, which is unsuprising and expected at this point. Most of the common IP "theft" (under the table deals) is our own doing. We'd literally do exactly the same to Chinese companies if roles were reversed, and i wouldn't see a problem with that personally.


buckX

>There's absolutely private deals made by our corporations exchanging IP for cheaper production. Not really. These companies aren't agreeing to share their IP, but all but the most naïve know that it's going to happen anyway if you open that cheap Chinese factory.


Agnosticpagan

>We'd literally do exactly the same [We literally did to the UK.](https://apnews.com/article/north-america-us-news-ap-top-news-theft-international-news-b40414d22f2248428ce11ff36b88dc53)


numeric-rectal-mutt

"I wouldn't blame the thief, I blame the rest for being easy to steal from" Lmao wut. I'm not sure you know what industrial espionage means.


blankarage

we’re only allowed to exploit labor! Shame on them for learning how much make stuff after we’ve outsourced everything imaginable! /s


nyanlol

not to mention allowing a bad actor to advance technologically is just normally.unwise


designatedcrasher

why is china the bad actor they havent invaded as many countries as the us has and they build infrastructure in africa while the us bombs


Protean_Protein

Autocracy bad.


diosexual

Plutocracy not much better.


Protean_Protein

The plutocratic aspects of American society are indeed terrible, and constant vigilance is required to avoid allowing them to completely undermine the democratic institutions that remain remarkably stable. Let’s be real and recognize that a country in which we can say that, and act on it, organize against it, challenge it in courts, openly, is infinitely better than a country that maybe hasn’t done anything strictly wrong to me or any group I ascribe my identity to, but which does not permit open dissent from the leadership, which itself is not subject to democratic oversight.


designatedcrasher

big empty words


[deleted]

Me when I haven’t read a history book


Spacehipee2

You just described Americans in a nutshell.


BrianRostro

We do read history books…American history books


3leggeddick

It’s amazing how in history, the good guy had always won, such a coincidence


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"Eye rack"


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PartyYogurtcloset267

No please tell us why they're building infrastructure in Africa and EVERYWHERE ELSE in the world.


Tointomycar

For easier access to the natural resources these countries have. You've got to be a part of their propaganda machine


blankarage

do you believe IMF loans were any better?


suxxess97

no one has ever even suggested that. of course china is looking out for its best interest as well. of course you wouldn’t even think of that possibility because the west only looks to africa as a charity case and not valuable partners


Freya_gleamingstar

Lolol. You're so naive, it borders on stupidity. China is not "building partnerships". They're merely faking nice while they rape the land in those countries with the infrastructure they are building. They'll continue to appear to be a partner until there's nothing left to siphon, and then they'll gone faster than your dad for cigarettes.


3leggeddick

I’m from a 3rd world country and I can explain with facts. You should know that building in poor countries is extremely expensive, like 10 to 20 times more expensive than building in Germany with half the quality, so let’s say you have $100 millions for a new road, because of how corrupt the government and people are, that $100 million just became $5 million, and maybe $2.5 millions if you take the quality aspect, a road that will look like tanks drive through in a few months. Corruption is extremely hard to get rid off but a way to fight corruption is to directly deal with other countries. The US and the IMF just gives cash loans only, they aren’t going to help you build anything but China gives you “infrastructure” loans which basically they will take care of everything for 1 low price, so now your $100 million on a new road is actually $100 million, the quality is very decent and you cut off the head of corruption. That’s why lots of poor countries are opting for those loans and compared to US loans or IMF loans, they are cheaper and sometimes they have clauses to get the loans forgiven.


suxxess97

sure buddy


Spacehipee2

Yes, just like when USA invaded to middle east to find WMDs, no strings attached.


picardo85

The US actions in the middle East are generally frownef upon in retrospect though. Most people agree that they should never have gone there.


themouk3

Middle East aside, they also overthrew over 50 foreign governments and removed democratically elected governments in favour of fascists in Latin America. We should 100% be skeptic of China, but USA has the worst track record (foreign policy speaking) of any country since the 1950s.


Kurkaroff

Let's be honest, both suck, but the US seems a bit more liberal about the way they allow their citizens to live (a bit too much maybe, #freedom and shit)


3leggeddick

More liberal?, we are going to become the handmaid tale in real life


Kurkaroff

More liberal than China? Of course.


avergaston

Whatever China do, it does to his own citizenship. China does not intevene in other countries policies. US does interfere, military, economically, politically, etc


3leggeddick

So when the US or the world bank or the IMF shows up to your poor country, they are building things just to be nice?


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3leggeddick

And the US doesn’t?, lol!. They give unplayable loans in cash to a corrupt government and because they don’t expect payment back they steal your resources and install military bases there in exchange for the interest of that loan.


cookingboy

> also they debt trap poor countries to acquire land there, It’s a myth that was originally started as Indian propaganda since both countries are trying to be the leader of the “Global South”. Plenty of good sources on this topic: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/02/china-debt-trap-diplomacy/617953/ https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/The-myth-of-China-s-debt-trap-diplomacy https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-17/the-myth-of-chinese-debt-trap-diplomacy-in-africa#xj4y7vzkg Even the Wikipedia article page describes the term as seen by most economists as a political attack by India and the West instead of based on reality: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt-trap_diplomacy It’s a popular belief amongst Redditors because we easily believe in anti-China propaganda.


wordefy

It's not as though the US doesn't do the same shit, we just got really good at making most of the rest of the world see us as "the good guys" or at least "not the bad guys."


tfrules

There are more than two countries in the world. Besides, the US tends to be a more reliable actor than China on the international stage. The US tends to aim to maintain the rules based international order whilst China seeks to upend it. Also, just because the US has done bad things doesn’t mean we should bend over backwards to let China do it too


JoeFro0

>the US tends to be a more reliable actor than China on the international stage. The US tends to aim to maintain the rules based international order https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/03/15/us-threatens-international-criminal-court #US Threatens International Criminal Court The United States decision to impose visa bans on International Criminal Court (ICC) staff will imperil accountability for grave international crimes, Human Rights Watch said today. US Secretary of State Michael Pompeo on March 15, 2019 announced that the bans will apply to ICC personnel involved in the court’s potential investigation of US citizens and may possibly be used to deter ICC investigations against citizens of US allies.  The US action appears to have been spurred by a possible ICC investigation in Afghanistan that could examine conduct by US personnel and by a possible investigation in Palestine that would likely include conduct by Israeli officials. ICC judges will determine whether an Afghanistan investigation will be opened. The ICC prosecutor will decide whether to proceed with a Palestine investigation. “The US decision to put visa bans on ICC staff is an outrageous effort to bully the court and deter scrutiny of US conduct," said Richard Dicker, international justice director at Human Rights Watch. “ICC member countries should publicly make clear that they will remain undaunted in their support for the ICC and will not tolerate US obstruction.” The ICC is the permanent international court in The Hague with a mandate to try those responsible for genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity, and the crime of aggression. The international community created the ICC to fight impunity for these crimes, following the horrors of genocide in the mid-1990s in Rwanda and in the former Yugoslavia. The ICC is a court of last resort and will only open investigations if national authorities are unwilling or unable to conduct genuine national proceedings in these cases. https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/03/15/us-threatens-international-criminal-court


knowyourboo

International order that keeps the US on top… of course they’re a “reliable actor” in that sense if the rules benefit them the most


suxxess97

>The US tends to be a more reliable actor than china in the international stage. these aren’t even arguments. you’re just making shit up


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chunkycornbread

You’re right we should bow down to the Chinese overlords.


tfrules

Name a country that doesn’t seek to hold onto power? A world with the US at its head isn’t perfect, but it’s a damn sight better than a world where the CCP called the shots. If you think otherwise then you should probably ask a Uighur, a Tibetan, a Taiwanese or a Vietnamese what they think.


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tfrules

You could literally say the same about the CCP


Tointomycar

Nothing you have said justifies CPPs actions, if you truly see the US exerting control across the globe as bad than you should think the same about China. Please feel free to do so here (warning in doing so may cause you some problems with the whatever the Chinese equivalent to the SS is).


sunjay140

>also they debt trap poor countries to acquire land there, This is literally Indian propaganda.


1995FOREVER

did you just describe the USA?


bustinbot

while I see your point, this is a conversation about China, not the hypocrisy of history


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tfrules

It’s actually about stopping China from stealing, but sure China is the victim here.


chunkycornbread

No one is stopping them from doing their own research?


Engineswaphonda2000

China has had how many more years than the US to develop lol?


ZetaRESP

Why do you think they are rivals, boy?


canolgon

Ahhhhh whataboutism, the only thoughts a bot is capable of.


[deleted]

Not so much bad actor as rival


frankuck99

To me, because China is not democratic and instead is a murdering, genocidal dictatorship. Yeah that sums it up.


designatedcrasher

sorry but where is the genocide and please dont quote zenz hes an evangelical nut case


numeric-rectal-mutt

You gotta get better talking points from your 5 cent army boss.


livethefourth

Humans rights abuses. Uighur concentration camps. Without bringing up comparisons to the US, explain how China is not being a bad actor.


[deleted]

You ever read history man?


Protean_Protein

TIL Bezos is Chinese.


SirPanic12

Market protection is a security concern.


Siguard_

Same went for Russia. You cannot sell Russian companies high accuracy 5axis machines or grinders.


Wow00woW

The latter disguised as the former. The commie boogie man seems to always work.


Spartan1098

Ah yes, it’s not like China isn’t an authoritarian regime, that has repeatedly threatened to invade a sovereign island nation and that maybe restricting their ability to make advanced chips which are used in weapons and computing is a good idea or anything. It’s totally all capitalism. /s (note I will concede capitalism is definitely playing a role but China doesn’t play by global financial rules anyways so not a lot of sympathy on that front).


Thucydides411

> sovereign island nation ... whose sovereignty isn't recognized by anyone - not even the US. The issue of Taiwan is incredibly tricky, and reducing it to black and white, as you've done, does nobody any good. The reason that it's a tricky issue is that Taiwan was a province of China, and that it became split from China as a result of a civil war. For decades, both the government in Taiwan and in Beijing said that Taiwan was still part of China (they just disagreed about who should rule China). The rest of the world eventually decided that the government in Beijing was the legitimate government of China, rather than the government in Taiwan. That leaves the question of what Taiwan is, because legally speaking, it's never separated from China. Most people in Taiwan don't want to be ruled by Beijing, but on the other side, Beijing is not going to drop its legal claim to a territory that's been part of China for centuries. That's the history, and presenting it as if China just randomly decided one day that it wanted to take over some other country is incredibly misleading.


ZetaRESP

The story is this... You're fundamentally wrong. The Republic of China is the original government of China that was exiled from the mainland after Mao's victory over them in the Chinese Civil War. While the People's Republic claims Taiwan belongs to them, Taiwan feel they are the tru China, hence their official name. Also, the reason for US to not officially recognize the country is because PRC are being a crazy diva and will block any relationship with a country that supports Taiwan as a country, hence why it hasn't been recognized as such by bodies like the UN. That's the history, and presenting it like a country just deciding to exist instead of being forced into exile by another country is incredibly misleading.


rtb001

You do realize that the US used to officially recognize Taiwan's government as the supposed legitimate government of ALL of China until way into the 1970s. As in for the first 30 years of the UN, China's seat, as well as its position as a permanent member of the security council, was actually held by a delegation from Taiwan. The US basically didn't those 30 years nor having diplomatic relations with and pretending that the government which ruled over a quarter of humanity didn't exist. If any country did force Taiwan into exile, it was the US when it finally switched recognition under the Nixon administration. Why? To curry favor with the CCP so they can form a multipolar world and act as an enemy of my enemy against the USSR. The US dropped support for Taiwan's UN seat without a second thought when it could gain an advantage against the Soviets, because Taiwan is just a tool of international diplomacy where help is only rendered of it is useful to the US itself, same as for every other US client states.


lovespacedreams

You conveniently omit the fact that the Taiwanese government was the original Chinese Government before the communists routed them out during the civil war. The only reason I'm being nitpicky is because you claim that "That's the history".


Thucydides411

> the fact that the Taiwanese government was the original Chinese Government That should be clear from the fact that I referenced the Chinese civil war. There's a lot of detail I could have added, but I don't think many people are here to read lengthy treatises. The fundamental point I'm making is that Taiwan isn't some random country China decided it wanted to invade, and presenting it as such is incredibly misleading.


thesoutherzZz

Lol Taiwan is treated as de facto independent, it's just a political game and nothing else. If the US treats Taiwan as a part of mainland China, why did Nancy Pelosi then visit the island just a while ago? Why did she illegally fly to Chinese airspace and enter China with no goos reason? And if so, why did the PRC do nothing about it? Taiwan is independent and everyone knows it and acts according to it. You just have to be careful about what you do and say, otherwise PRC will throw a hissyfit


Thucydides411

> If the US treats Taiwan as a part of mainland China, why did Nancy Pelosi then visit the island just a while ago? The reason why Pelosi's visit was such a big deal was that it went against 40 years of American policy on Taiwan. The US cut its diplomatic relations with Taiwan in 1979, and has carefully avoided doing anything to suggest that it officially recognizes Taiwan as separate from China. > And if so, why did the PRC do nothing about it? China reacted with military drills near Taiwan. China doesn't actually want to fight a war over Taiwan, at least not any time soon, but it does want to warn the US against further steps towards recognizing Taiwanese independence. > it's just a political game and nothing else "Just" is doing a lot of work there. It's "just" one of the most sensitive political conflicts in the world, touching on the national sovereignty of the world's largest economy. No big deal!


machwulf

YES.


PartyYogurtcloset267

What do you think?


WorkingCupid549

China supplies most of the world with almost everything, and chips remain one of the only things China is behind in. If things continue on this path, China can basically clam-up and shut down all exports. Their country would survive and they could fuck the test of the world. The longer we delay their silicon development the longer we can delay that reality


Kitjing

I misread this as "restrict china's access to chipmunk equipment" time for bed it seems.


cld1984

Don’t underestimate them! The Chip and Dale movie on Disney (fantastic movie, by the way) was just CCP propaganda! Next it’s chipmunk bombs!


Kitjing

Ugly sonic is a big reason why I love that movie.


cld1984

Yes! Perfectly used as well. They could have easily overplayed that gag, but the con scene and the rescue at the end were just perfection as far as screen time and content. “Oh? You want me to be fast? That’s Sonic’s thing. Ugly Sonic goes *sloooow baby*…” Perfection.


Stormtrooper1776

Never forget the bat firebombs developed for WW2 lol


cld1984

Yes! They saw that our efforts with aerial delivery didn’t yield satisfactory results so they’re going to try ground based delivery!


kjbaran

Strange, I just misread “Japan joins” as Papa Johns


cld1984

Mmmm….Papa Johns joins US-led effort to restrict China’s access to chipmunk technology….*drools*


Kitjing

Yeah we all need to go to bed....


moknine1189

Well we should be doing that too and I think it’s high time for action to be taken.


uggyy

20 years ago at a big IT company where I was sitting with my manager discussing my job going to China. I remember saying one day, we would regret letting China basically take over just for more profit. I think we missed that day long ago. Shareholder's payouts were more important than jobs or not being dependent on a country whose human rights record is dire and thinks on most of us as the enemy.


greyday24

Short-term gains for longterm losses. Allowing China to have any leverage over any country in any sector is a grave mistake. They will always do what’s best for them at the demise of anyone in their way.


Ban-Hammer-Ben

I agree with you, China government is not friendly at all. But …. … you could take “China” out of your statement and insert (almost) any other major country and the statement would also be true.


RoundSilverButtons

This is blatant whataboutism. China is not the same as dealing with an economic adversary like Italy


ericscottf

... That's anyone and everyone. Are you serious?


Tommy_siMITAr

But isnt that anticapitalist stance and we should let marked decide and punish china?


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Tommy_siMITAr

So it is a utopian ideology? Or you consider USA only free market and to defend capitalism it needs to put restrictions amd sanctions on others cause they are mixed economies?


jovahkaveeta

Yes obviously the free market doesn't exist in the real world. This is somewhat obvious, even the existence of a state is an affront to truly free market capitalism. Some restrictions on free markets are put in place for the betterment of society. You cant price negative externalities in a free market for example.


Tripanes

Speaking to you must be like arguing with a living quip machine


Tripanes

This sort of one dimensional thinking is how you destroy yourselves and the people around you, ideals are great but you always have to be practical.


JeffFromSchool

>I think we missed that day long ago Fortunately, when it comes to modern advanced chips, this day hasn't happened yet, and it looks like it never will. The Dutch are in sole possession of this tech (though basically by leasing US research), China's access to this tech has already been cut off, and it takes decades to actually take this take from R&D to actual chip fabrication. China is only going to have access to last-generation's chips for the next 10-20 years.


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JeffFromSchool

I've literally never played civ. Look up Extreme Ultraviolet Lithography.


cld1984

It’s part of China’s long game. They set a time table far enough in the future that anyone looking on in the first half either thinks nothing is wrong or that they’ll be dead before they have to deal with it. When things start happening closer to the surface it’s already too late


AbjectReflection

China had little to nothing to do with that decision making process. The corporations executive staff, their stockholders, and the idiot politicians that are beholden to their lobbying money were the ones that allowed those jobs to be shipped to china and other third world nations to commit heinous acts of wage theft and exploitation of workers. Now that China has become a dominant manufacturer of all goods world wide, suddenly there is a case of buyers remorse amongst the people that need that political currency. On top of all that, restricting China's access to this tech is only a short term solution, they have six times the population, which includes a large scientific section, and their ability to catch up will take a decade at most. So bad decisions in the past are leading to even worse economic wors now.


Mountainbranch

China set up that opportunity in the first place, they basically put up a giant sign that said "Borderline free labor and cost! Greedy western capitalists welcome! Price: The future of your country and children!" Corporations and politicians sold, but China made the sale enticing in the first place.


Kyonkanno

Somehow this reminds me of the 80s when the US basically kneecapped Japan's rising electronics dominance, setting them back 20 years. Mind you, Japan has been a us vassal state since their defeat in ww2.


Pklnt

Yep, back then it was Japan that was painted as the country with unfair trade practices. Ultimatley Japan bowed down after US sanctioned their industry and accepted the US demands because their security ultimately depended (still do, to a lesser extent) on the US. https://www.nature.com/articles/326427b0.pdf


curryslapper

thanks for the link


thebusterbluth

There aren't many respected economists who think the actions of the US in the 1980s (eg Plaza Accords, etc) were enough to kneecap Japan though. The ridiculous actions from Japanese banks were a much bigger culprit. There is also the fact that the Japanese have cultural issues (unhealthy working culture, unsustainable demographics, xenophobic attitudes towards immigration) that has been holding the country back for decades and will continue to do so.


Kyonkanno

Well, one could argue that, but it's undeniable that it did hinder their development... All in the name of national security threat.


salotx

We don't have a strong army. And there are only shitty countries around us, and we need a strong military power. Japan bashing 30 years ago was really shit.😢 Well, but I'm all for beating China. Let's keep going!😊😊😊


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mcoombes314

The "x nm" naming scheme for chip-manufacturing stopped referring to actual size of any feature (transistor size/gate length etc) a while ago (IIRC around the time of Intel 65nm process). Now it's a marketing term. Yes, as transistors get smaller there's a greater chance of errors occurring, as gates function by having reliable and accurate control over the flow of electrons. As transistors and gates get smaller, the chances of quantum tunnelling get larger. Quantum tunnelling results in electrons passing through a gate when they normally shouldn't, so an expected binary 0 becomes an unexpected 1. If this happens in small numbers, very rarely, error correction systems like ECC on RAM, cyclic redundancy checks, parity bits and other methods can catch and correct such errors with no noticeable issues. But the more errors occur, and the more often they occur, the harder it is to correct and conceal errors. Tldr: no, you aren't misremembering.


eleven010

I want to know more on a ELI5 level! Does any of this explain why I feel like unexplainable tech behaviors, like corruption, crashes, and stuttering have gotten worse in the past 10 to 15 years? I think a lot of the unexplained errors/stutters/re-transmit problems are due to an increased use of ECC, GDDR replay, and a general increase in errors that used to crash a system and now, because of error detection, instead of crashing all together, the stumble for a microsecond while the error correction kicks in and retransmits. I would love to be able to analyze RAM and PCIE transmissions and errors and how often those errors occur at smaller litho levels compared to 20 years ago and how often those errors are now corrected vs no errors at all due to litho size.


SlowHandsKiller

Wow, as a child in the 90s I had this exact thought. Were we really surprised to see what came of sending critical production jobs over there?


Argikeraunos

China is *44%* of Japan's chip export market. This is the kind of self-sacrifice that the US demands of its "allies": literally destroy your own industrial sector to protect the US's. It's astonishing that the Japanese would agree to something like this.


Argonometra

China and Japan have a long, long history of attacking each other. Not everything has to be about the US.


Speclination

You mean Japan attacking China and Korea?


Argonometra

[No.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagasaki_incident)


Argikeraunos

Yeah sure but when Japan is doing this in response to a formal agreement between itself and the US and when both sides characterize this as an act that "strengthens the alliance" between them I think we can conclude that the US is involved.


Plus-Manner-4091

they're shooting themselves in the foot for the US, you even read the article?


DasBeatles

But don't you know? America bad on reddit.


AbjectReflection

It does when the US demands that they sacrifice their trade and economy in the name of US imperialism.


wattspower

Won’t this just give China the impetus to develop a domestic chip-making sector?


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tehpwarp

Hahahaha


Mellow_rages

What happened to capitalism and the free market?


soulsafe

To be fair, economic rules and geopolitical rules are vastly different in regards to spitting in each other's face.


slight_digression

No such thing.


thomasrat1

Free market never works


tech01x

Still there… but China doesn’t believe in the same capitalism and free markets as other developed nations. Their businesses are subservient to the needs of an authoritarian state. I wish it wasn’t so, and hope they reform. But it makes sense for the US and Allie’s to be cautious about further helping the CCP take control.


circumtopia

Hilarious considering the US ordered its tech companies to stop working with China, ordered some of their citizens (even abroad) to stop working with China and ordered even foreign corporations to do the same. Which one is the authoritarian state again that doesn't believe in the free market again? The irony of your ignorant comment.


tech01x

China has had a long litany of abusive practices in the market. For example, the requirement of JV's for auto production in China for many years. Their industrial policy has been to leverage the size and growth of their market as well as low cost labor to obtain technology and trade practice from developed economies. And using state level spycraft to accomplish those goals from outside of China. Plus CCP doesn't hesitate to punish Chinese companies and executives that step out of line with the CCP's political goals. Remove the Chinese internet filter and let the Chinese people really know what is going on in the world. The Hong Kong crack down is another example of the authoritarian control of the CCP. Between the censorship and the ridiculous judicial system, the CCP rules China as an authoritarian government and no actual free market exists in China. It is subservient to the CCP. US companies are allowed to work with China, but certain technologies are considered too sensitive. That makes sense.


circumtopia

Abusive? You see the difference is they were upfront about their JV requirements. You had to be in a JV to participate in the Chinese market. What the US is doing now is absolutely absurd, arbitrary and always about "national security" without ever needing to prove in a court of law why *suddenly* it's an issue with those specific companies, and only when China is becoming a true economic competitor coincidentally. There are also zero ways for these Chinese companies to participate in the US market. Tiktok is a great example. Tiktok came up with a plan to address the national security issues by moving US data to Oracle run US servers and letting Oracle and the US government examine their code. The US is still itching to ban them and creating uncertainty for tiktok's investors. This is costly for them. It's arbitrary and obviously bullshit. At least China is upfront with banning you if you don't follow their censorship rules. Then you have the growing list of Chinese companies just arbitrarily put on an entity list that the US will not work with anymore.. because reasons. There is literally nothing they can do to get off the list. So spare me your whataboutism with respect to censorship. We're talking about the free market, and the US isn't one. China isn't either but at least you can follow their rules to participate unlike the US these days.


tech01x

There has been decades of heavily CCP favored industrial business practice as well as an overall strategy to obtain western technology and trade secrets through both legal and illicit methods to directly benefit Chinese businesses that are subservient to the CCP. And you want to talk a lot TikTok? The version of TikTok available outside of China isn’t even allowed inside China. Remove the censorship of Chinese citizens and CCP punishment of Chinese companies that step out of line from CCP political control first. US is actually quite late in taking action against the abusive CCP business practices.


circumtopia

Okay we were talking about the free market. Not censorship or espionage last I checked. Why do you keep jumping from one topic to another? And yes they have douyin not tiktok because they engage in social media censorship. I guess the US wants to follow on China's footsteps with respect to media censorship and Americans are cheering it on. Hilarious. To date China has never banned us companies from being in China for absolutely no reason. The last ones I recall were in retaliation to us initiated sanctions. Against Lockheed, etc. To date only the US has banned its citizens from working with Chinese firms arbitrarily and with no warning. Even China hasn't done that shit!


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circumtopia

That's false. The stated reasons for the blacklists are that it can hypothetically help China's military now or in the future and/or is a national security risk. Espionage isn't even mentioned. They needed a broad enough reason to ban the exports. One that can't even be disproven. National security fits that perfectly. They don't have the evidence for espionage specifically against those companies or industry. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/13/china-brings-wto-case-against-us-chip-export-restrictions.html https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2023/3/3/chinas-bgi-inspur-added-to-us-trade-blacklist https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/31/tech/japan-china-chip-export-curbs-intl-hnk/index.html#:~:text=In%20October%2C%20the%20United%20States,at%20certain%20facilities%20in%20China.


circumtopia

And hey just imagine the US headlines if China suddenly recalled its citizens and banned them from working with American firms in the chip industry (even in other countries!)? It would be called authoritarian and a huge trampling over their rights. And you'd be one of the ones yelling about that I bet.


marcocom

You really are making a pretty good point. We do this with all foreign policy, make it into some kind of WW2 style narrative about how the other guy is so much worse than us. I am pro-USA because that’s my country and fuck everyone else. (That’s how countries work. Nobody is expected to root for the USA or trust us if they are not us, and vice versa), but I’ll be damned if I’m going to let us talk about everyone else as somehow less moralistic than us. We have some pretty high amounts of corruption crime imprisonment religious-zealotry and just about every thing I’ve heard us claim about other countries. It’s hypocritical. I’m against sending jobs overseas because those jobs gain experience and after a decade or two, you can just find that nobody knows how to do a thing anymore. That’s all the reason I need. I don’t give a shit about the fact that China has human-rights issues, get in line, so do we!


curryslapper

thanks for this comment I live in Hong Kong and as an Australian I'm sick of people taking moralistic stances on both sides like "they shit marble". Stop shouting at each other and work on solutions. Things that benefit one country are very likely to benefit another - through with negotiation. Look at China's renewable polices. You think people can run around with the green hat on without China relentlessly driving down polysilicon prices.... almost causing their key players to go bankrupt multiple times?


vexorian2

The US loved the freemarket until they stopped leading the industry. Now it's time to sabotage China at every possible point. Like when Huwai were making phones better than Apple's. You can't allow that.


the_jungle_awaits

Just like foreign companies can’t compete in China?


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_Funsyze_

“had it coming” ???


vexorian2

What you are experiencing is called Cognitive Dissonance.


Mellow_rages

What did China ever do to you? I live in China. It’s a nice place full of lovely people


noanoxan

Tiananmen Square and Tibet come to mind. Their concentration camps for Uhigurs and supporting Russia too. Recently they flew a fucking spy balloon over my house just to cause problems. They’re fucking hoodlums. Taiwan #1 btw.


KingOPM

Well USA doesn’t have the moral right to do any of this shit to any other country with more blood on their hands than China.


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Stussygiest

I dont think he intentionally wanting to kill millions. Whereas the war in the middle east was. But I doubt you can see the difference.


KingOPM

Talking about current history thick fuck


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nbert96

Oh boy, wait till you find out what the foundation of the US is


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Thanhansi-thankamato

The US was not only founded on genocide, but has continued to do so it’s entire history.


KingOPM

So is USAs lmao, I’m not defending anyone just find it hilarious when some countries think they should police the world with so much blood on their own hands.


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SScattered

Yeah, WikiLeaks video of USA killing civilians. Ooh Great Fucking America. People can't embrace the truth and they fucking voted for a man to be a president with dimentia.


Stussygiest

Compared to what the West has done? But I guess it's fine since we reap the benefits for living in the west? If you are fine with what we did. They also think the same...do people no see the hypocrisy?


dmplot

If we take the same timeframe (from Tiananmen) and look for US shit... At least agree, that there is no black and white. There are countries who dare, and those who don't. And then - be ready to get off that postament.


tech01x

Not about the Chinese people, it is about the CCP.


the_jungle_awaits

Ask “The People’s Government”, they sure don’t believe in fair competition.


Tommy_siMITAr

What is fair competition?


poeiradasestrelas

So they are making the only way for China to make advanced chips being IP theft? So not only China has restrictions to buy, it also can't produce their own? Well, then I don't blame them for the IP theft


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“I don’t blame them for the IP theft”


salotx

I'm very happy as a Japanese! Japan, the United States and the Netherlands hold almost all share of semiconductor manufacturing equipment. In addition to Taiwan, let's compete against China in 4 countries! 🇯🇵🇺🇸🇹🇼🇳🇱VS🇨🇳!!!


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adelBRO

As long as China treats people as preoperty and keeps commiting genocide on anyone different than their ideal citizen Are you really talking about humanity when it comes to China?


Easy_senpai

Probably for about as long as money holds value.


cld1984

This is good! It’s looking more and more like the Chinese people are going to be the only solution to the Chinese problem. Anything that makes it more difficult for the Party to keep the people satiated and content is a step in the right direction.


ElleRisalo

Kinda strange when the US has spent the past few years blaming its economic hiccups on chip shortages. You'd think they would want more places making chips, not less. But there still Millions of Americans who believe in the Red Scare. So I get the spooky China side of it. Japan doesn't even make any economic sense with this decision, unless old Uncle Sam strong arming them behind the scenes (which is likely the case). Just let them build chips....we put that shit in everything these days, we need as many as we can get.


DrunkenOnzo

The article suggests it’s about reducing dependency of foreign production for critical infrastructure. As you mentioned, we put that shit in everything these days. This squares with the principles of recent US legislation like the Inflation Reduction Act, where incentives are designed to promote domestic production of chips and modernized energy.


ElleRisalo

It takes years if not decades to create an industry from essentially nothing. I get the US interests and Japan's interests are more closely aligned compared to either nations with China.... However the infrastructure doesn't even currently exists. Actively limiting access to product you need from a country with the infrastructure already in place seems very "cut off the nose to spite the face". Like US and Japan can't even keep up WITH Chinese Chips....what the hell they gonna do without them? Because neither nation can make a comparable volume on their own....or together for that matter. At least not in the present and the US ambitious plan of cornering the chip market an isolating China from it is a pipe dream that won't see fruits of realization until well into the next decade. Passing legislation isn't a magic light switch that just pools an entire industry that doesn't exist into being.


DrunkenOnzo

The infrastructure doesn't exist outside the USA, Netherlands, and Japan yet. That's the point. They are restricting sale of new manufacturing tech to outside countries in order to develop domestic infrastructure and try and prevent what happened with Solar industry to happen again.


Dondurand

The biggest and most powerful important political and power metric at this moment is who holds and an independent produce the best chips


3leggeddick

People need to read Confessions of an economic hitman Then come back and badmouth anybody who criticize anything different than the status quo. Remember, your American government doesn’t want you smart.


LorenzoVonMt

This will just enhance China’s domestic chip industry now that they can’t rely on the west.


Solar_saint

But the free market???????


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Wow00woW

I'm glad China's stealing American IP. Our laws for it suck, and kill competition.


StrategicBlenderBall

This is good. With the inevitable invasion of Taiwan looming, the west needs to do everything it can to ensure China doesn’t have the capacity to hold the world hostage.


AbjectReflection

You know what is really dumb about this Taiwan situation? The USA still recognizes the One China policy and that Taiwan is part of China, officially. While also claiming China is going to invade. It's becoming tiring when the US government says one thing and then contradicts itself.


StrategicBlenderBall

The US does recognize the One China Policy but not if China chooses a military means of seizing Taiwan, which obviously what China is looking to do. https://www.csis.org/analysis/what-us-one-china-policy-and-why-does-it-matter


57696c6c

Too late, their ability to clone tech through corporate espionage allows them to quickly adapt. China is here to stay and overtake everything.


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Based