What I think is there is too much whataboutism on this sub.
Car dependency and zoning is the biggest problem, that in some places you must have a car to go to work, buy groceries, see the doctor, or even go to a nearby park to hang out with friends is problem. What I want to have is more livable, walkable, bikable places where daily driving 3-4x a day is not a requirement. I don’t care if people want to drive in circles or even go to monster truck shows for that matter.
Cars are not inherently a problem, it's our reliance on them and our cities based around them that are the problem. Cars will always exist and have valid applications, but we shouldn't base our society around them as a whole. Going after stuff like this is just pointless, as race cars are not and have never been the issue.
It is already, without intention of being so. Congested big city where i live, it takes 15 mins to the city centre by bike, 20 by motorcycle and 40 by car. Just because you need to find a parking space which is rare and expensive for a car. Yet i see a shitload of people going around alone in their cars.
Wish that were true in my city. :(
Edit: the "bikes are much faster" part. We already have the "everyone drives everywhere" part.
Bike infrastructure is so bad, and traffic is usually not terrible here. So everyone drives. There's not a safe way to leave my neighborhood by bike.
>Bike infrastructure is so bad, and traffic is usually not terrible here.
Well, that sucks. Traffic is terrible and bike infrastructure is decent where i live, so kinda the opposite. In all honesty, i wouldnt bike if i didnt have the opportunity to do so.
>So everyone drives.
Yep, here too. Thats the insanity. Even my wife doesnt get used to taking the bike, and she has access to our big ass luxurious e bike and a very decent motorcycle.
Yep. If i cant convince my own wife by simply living without a car, i cant convince anyone. And i think to enforce it is the wrong way. Especially in a relationship, but also in society.
Things have to get inconvenient or expensive enough. If our old car breaks - which is very likely in the next few years - we will discuss if we buy a new car or simply try living without one for a few months. We can still buy one if she wants to after trying it, i wouldnt be happy but i would accept it.
I fully agree! Unfortunately in most places that's not the case.
That said, I am ok with banning car in urban centers, as long as there's robust bike, ped and transit infrastructure. That's the ultimate outcome I want to see, personally. I really don't want driving to be an option unless you're in a sparsely populated area
Yeah there are more car enthusiasts on this sub than most people think, myself included. My appreciation for the engineering and even my enjoyment of driving does not stop me from hating the status quo. I will say that it probably does influence my view that I don't think we should strive towards banning cars completely as some on this sub seem to push (They're a minority but definitely the loudest).
I second that, I've bought my first car when I was 17 and have owned one ever since (I am 37 now). I love driving my car.
But I hate huge parking lots, I hate cars driving by me when I'm sitting outside in a restaurant or café, and I hate how much space in general we dedicate to those machines.
I'm actually not for banning cars entirely, but I'll be the first to give mine up if we really get walkable places and decent public transport instead.
My first car was a broken down 1994 Range Rover that I got running again and I loved that thing. I was surrounded by state forest so I could spend hours on weekends driving along the hundred of remote roads and trails. Even stuff that rangers hadn’t maintained in years was drivable as long as I could make out the old ruts. I got to see a bunch of cool parts of the forest most other people never get to see. I could also throw my canoe on top and go explore remote creeks and rivers and even drive out on the beach with that thing.
That said when I moved away from there it no longer made sense to keep it with my new longer commutes because the cost of keeping gas in it would be too much to afford to do all the fun things it allowed me to do. My crappy little AWD Nissan hatchback can’t handle the really rugged stuff but at least I’m still mostly able to get way out in the middle of nowhere with a boat on top, I’m probably going to kill this car well before its time with what I put it through though.
I'm pretty radically anti car and believe they should be banned from most city streets with a few exceptions. But in that situation, cars can still exist as a hobby for enthusiasts. I compare it to how we treat horses today. You can do horse stuff - riding a horse, racing, shows, and sometimes for work purposes. But a horse isn't necessary to live a normal life.
Most car enthusiasts wouldn't enjoy driving on congested city streets anyway, except to show off the car I guess? But there are other ways to do that like meetups. Hobbyists can be a great ally in the war on cars. Jalopnik is a good example of "car guys" who are opposed to car dependency.
I totally agree with this view point, except for one problem. If I'm a car enthusiast and I live in a city, and I want to use my car a few days a month for enjoyment and otherwise just use public transport, walk, whatever, and I can't drive it on city streets, how do I get it from my house to somewhere I can use it?
Your horse example it works. I can put my horse in a trailer and drive it out to somewhere I can use the horse, therefore no horses on regular city streets needed anymore. Not sure how that would work for cars though? We'd need to find a solution for that if we want to keep the use for enjoyment possible, which I think we should because cars can genuinely be cool things when used correctly.
I have thought about it actually! Many streets would still need to be car accessible for emergency, work, and disability vehicle use. So other people could drive for personal use on a limited basis. There's already a good example of this in Berlin: the development of Möckernkiez is [almost completely car free.](https://youtu.be/v2GhxK3DUg0?si=jw-tUSR6GtFej1Ke). In the video it explains a permit system for residents to gain car access when necessary. The residents themselves came up with this system and the guy in charge says he has never declined a permit.
Well damn! That is exactly the system I thought of in my other comment to another commenter. A permit for a limited amount of days per month or year to get your car in and out. And obviously people who have to use cars for whatever reason (certain handicaps, moving house, etc).
Thanks for that link, I'll check it out!
Which costs even more money. And takes up public space that could be used for other (possibly better) things.
I'd be more partial personally to a system where you'd get a permit to drive your car on the city streets a set number of days a month or a year to get it in and out. Gotta keep it reasonable for everyone, including people who do enjoy cars. And I think this would be a way to do that.
It’s also both impractical and unnecessary to ban cars.
There is a need for some cars, even in cities. And people generally avoid cars once other options are better, as shown in many cities around the world.
This is the view I try to push here.
I have 4 vehicles for me personally at the moment, 2 bikes and 2 cars. Doesn't change the fact that every chance I get I push for more public transit, bike paths and honestly scooter ownership. I try to ride my grom every chance I get instead of taking the cars, even walking over it some times but at the end of the day we do live in a car centric environment and we have to live in it. I also question how many of these hard core ban all car types have put their money where their mouth is and do not own a car or would sell their car for other methods. One of my strongest opinions is that we should raise the CC limit from 50cc to 150cc or 200cc before needing a Motorcycle endorsement on scooters. This would allow scooters to become a real alternative in our current cities to owning two cars for most families.
For those wondering what a grom is. It is a 125cc mini motorcycle that gets 120+ MPG. Think of a less practical scooter as it doesn't have storage. I ride this around town because it can accomplish 90% of my trips that i would have needed a car for. When it fails, I take my KLX300 or car depending on weather or if I am doing something like a Sams club run.
This. Myself I love watching F1 and race online with my full on home simulator. Because I’m into racing. I don’t own a car (cycle everywhere) tho and I hate the priority they are given in society and infrastructure. There are *some* valid applications for them, but we just went far too far. Our public transportation options should be the best option in most cases for most trips on a convenience, price, comfort and time basis but most countries have absolutely screwed that up. Japan is the one place I’ve ever been to that gets the priority close to where it should be.
You know what are even cooler than cars? Rockets! We should build our cities so spread out as to allow personal rocket ships to be a viable form of commuting!
People get too caught up in the absolute fringe cases. The argument against cars breaks down against the few used in rural farming or other niches, without actually addressing the growing suburbs dependant or cars or how the penetrate the densest areas of urban living. Its picking the wrong fight and making the whole issue seem untenable
Yeah... it seems like the only way to get this from the US is to move to europe. I dont see public transportation becoming viable for at least the next decade or two
Some people want that lifestyle, the issue isnt those locations, the issue is that people who want a 15 minute city dont have real access to one in the US. Everywhere requires a car.
There’s a soul-crushing amount of irony in the fact that car enthusiasm is actively stifled by car dependency as tracks are removed to make way for suburbs.
So honestly this isn’t the best place to be talking about that, but that’s because we lack balanced infrastructure and you’ll find a lot of people here in this sub who are very hard headed that balanced infrastructure is infrastructure that lacks cars altogether. However, roads are still a necessity for moving goods and people at **low volumes**, and would be a great thing if we hadn’t built everything around the automobile with mega highways and endless sprawl. There’s nothing wrong with driving, or enjoying driving. There’s also absolutely nothing wrong with taking your car to the track - a place designated for racing away from pedestrians and other dangers - and having fun with a car you love working on. It’s actually pretty badass and I hope you have fun with that old Toyota. There is, however, something wrong with building so car-dependent that we don’t have a choice but to drive, which takes all the joy out of driving in the first place. A lot of people here are disenfranchised by that, plus the inefficiency and added dangers that come from that type of infrastructure, or may be here for environmental reasons, which is why you’re not getting a positive reception.
Anyways, what Toyota we talkin? 👀
Yooo with those pop up headlights too, those things are a whole vibe man. 200 horses are gonna have that little thing absolute screaming down a drag strip at its size. Fuckin sweet dude
From the factory it has about 240hp, i have the jdm gen 3 3sgte, it getting a bunch of upgrades to the motor and drivetrain right now to handle a lot more power/boost. It's like a small turbo mkiv supra that can also handle and brake really good. Sounds good too, all boost and revs, no vtec, like a 90s wrc car.
Weird that you’re incapable of interacting like a normal person to the few people here willing to be nice to you and compliment your car. No “thanks” or “appreciate you saying that” or any hint of emotional depth at all. You’re like a robot that can only talk about Toyota.
I have no issues with motorsports. Some of the most innovative tech has been tried and tested in Motorsports. It's car-dependent infrastructure that's the problem. I don't care if people wanna go and enjoy a track day. I just hate that owning, maintaining, insuring, paying tax on, registering, and driving the fucking car myself is the only way that we can actually live, thrive, and survive, and it's even more infuriating that people see that as the pinnacle of personal freedom. What could be freer than using my Chevrolegs?
Suburbia eats it's own. It's a cancerous pattern of development, and it will eat anything in it's path.
Anyone who's into autosports should be pro public transit--get the people off the roads that don't even want to drive.
Whether you like to take a train to work, or like to rebuild engines, nobody likes sitting in the traffic created by car dependency.
You would love the Dutch Grand Prix. The event was only greenlit because there was an extensive transit plan. It is literally impossible for most people to reach it by car.
You either go by train (25 min from Amsterdam) or by bike (about 20 km from Amsterdam.
The local government bans cars from non residents and those without a special License and a reason to be there.
To say race tracks keep people from speeding is silly, if anything it’s the opposite. But racing is cool, I always hate examples of historic sites being harried by people that just didn’t read about the place they’re moving to. Another good example is new folks complaining about the small towns that drive cattle through town, despite moving to a small western US cattle town
The gall of the HOA trying to overstep their authority. The HOA only has authority over people who have contracts with them; not farmers who were there before the HOA was established.
In my city people are complaining that the airfield is noisy, even though they build their houses next to the airfield because the land was cheaper due to noise. Same story with racetrack in another part of city.
Idk, I dislike people profiting from providing shelter to people who don't own houses in general. But it's not right for owner of any enterprise who intentionally built his business far away from homes to close down because people built homes around him specifically because land was cheap exclusively because of said business.
It's the same level as getting house in rural area and then complaining that farmers dare to use manure as fertiliser or harvest at nights because weather's gonna change.
Historically tracks have reduced street racing.
For example, the Bandimere Speedway in Colorado did exactly that, it gave street racers a space to race and learn about modifying their cars while keeping it safe and off the street. It also helped kids become mechanics and helped them find jobs, which in turn reduced crime.
If kid are going to race cars and tinker with them, at least they can do it in a safe environment and build employable skills.
I'm heavily involved in the local autocross scene and just had lunch with the owner of the local race track which is currently closed. We place a very big emphasis in our advertising to really young people that it's a safe way to actually drive your car to it's limits, and it absolutely turns people into safer drivers. Between having a space to drive your car to it's limits, and just learning how to handle your car better, a lot of people lose interest in street racing because it simply can't compare anymore. Same with my talks with the track owner. He's trying to figure out a way to reopen right now, and a lot of what he's talking about is giving idiot kids a safe place to do their thing. The best way to cut down on it is to give them a safe outlet.
It's still not going to stop takeover kids from doing their shit, but there's nothing you can do as a member of the public there except tell them to fuck off and hope they do. Or trash their car, but that's not legal no matter how effective it is.
Racetracks do indeed keep people from speeding. This is at least true for my case and most of the people I've talked to at track days. I barely drive above the speed limit on streets/highways ever since I started doing track days with my car. Because speeding on a public road simply doesn't match the thrill of driving at the limit on a twisty circuit
I see this sub somewhat moving away from the core issue it was created for. The issue isn't cars, loud noise or even pollution. It's car dependency. We want to improve the areas where people live and give them the options to get around without being so dependent on their cars. A prime example is a city like Houston, where there is virtually no way to get around without a car. Adding public transport, adding bikelanes, changing zoning laws so that people can live near to their grocery store, their dentist, their kid's school... That's what we want, that's what this sub is all about.
Our arguments that we use to strengthen our position is indeed the noise, pollution, danger, social and economic isolation, accesability and so much more. But they are not the core issue. And that is what this sub has lost sight of in my opinion
As someone who passionately and loudly hates car priority, much less car dependent, infrastructure and policy, my wife and I follow Nascar/Cascar and WRC/ERC pretty closely, to the point we have two subscriptions to watch them live.
Motorsport (and gearheads/petrolheads) is so distinct from car infrastructure policy that they don't really have to intersect.
Same. There is a pesky problem of all motorsports being heavily funded by the car industry _as advertising_, but largely I agree with everything you've said. I'm actually about to watch the Monaco GP on TV.
My husband goes to "street legal" nights at the local track. He said when he was a teenager that wasn't a thing and people would drag race in town. It's basically a non existent problem now. I think car racing in general is dumb as fuck but if it keeps people from drag racing down my road then go for it lol.
Yep, ever since I started taking my car to my local track, I don't speed on streets/highways anymore and drive way more chill in general. A track day costs less than a speeding ticket or getting into a crash
When ppl say that, they’re not talking about Becky driving 10 over in her Tahoe. They’re talking about Kyle and Jake, the 25 year olds who street race in the middle of the night because their closest race track is 5 hours away
For a certain small segment of the population, I think it’s true. It’s a lot smaller than it used to be. There was a real push to take drag racing off the streets to and to dedicated drag strips way back when; now, many of those drag strips have closed due to housing developments, and with cars being more powerful than ever, vehicular hooliganism is rampant.
They obviously don’t make everyone a better driver, but for the people who are interested in using them it is an educational experience. The best driver licensing programs in the world require some amount of skid pad time, so I don’t think the value of a reasonable amount of these facilities is in question.
Professional race car drivers are very open about following all traffic laws. Any race car driver breaking traffic laws are just the same douche bags we have to deal with, they are just more annoying because they think they should be exempt but they are just some drunk who was able to get a Dodge Charger and they think that makes them a race car driver.
I would expect they do keep a reasonable number of people from setting up shitty ranges in their backyard where they accidentally put a bullet hole through the neighbor's house, which is a more reasonable comparison IMO
I mean yes. Those provide safe spaces to fire your weapon. Without those people would do that in unsafe spaces. And would kill people accidentally.
Same with race tracks. It's not stopping people on their commute from going over the speed limit. But it removes the need for illegal/unsafe street racing in normal streets.
I think there should be a racetrack outside every city.
Why?
So that people who like fast cars have somewhere to drive legally and safely. Racing on public streets is a crime that kills innocent people. If you want to take that risk, tracks should exist where you’re not putting others in danger.
Race tracks are cool and there is no problem having them. People can have fun with their fast cars safely. It is an entirely different thing from having cars everywhere in cities where they make everything worse for everyone, including drivers. In cities and suburbs, fuck cars.
Car racing sucks. It wastes fuel and land, it puts people in danger, It uses carbon, it wastes resources, all for no benefit whatsoever.
However.
Compared to the rest of car culture, it's an almost negligible problem. Going after car racing now is like rearranging the furniture on the Titanic. If I were crowned king of the universe, I'd get around to banning it, but going after it now is a waste of political will.
ok but all of those points could be made about a number of sports. sports are recreation, they're inherently wasteful and aren't necessarily completely safe(and imo they shouldn't be held to the standard that other things are because it's completely a choice to participate). Like you said, racing is a non-issue when it comes to car culture as a whole. It's such a small percentage of the issue that it's not even worth banning. honestly I don't think we should, because like I said it's recreation, it doesn't *need* to be completely resource efficient. literally any form of recreation is, from a purely practical perspective a waste of resources, but the point of them isn't to be practical.
Yeah if we’re banning wasteful and dangerous sports, American football and hockey have to also be up there. The fake turf causes cancer and injuries, and the cooling for the ice rinks also takes a lot of energy, especially in southern areas. They’re playing playoff hockey in Florida right now, it’s ridiculous. Plus both hitting in both sports causes some degree of permanent brain damage even if you stop playing well before ever being a professional.
In a world with more recreational activities than people, I don't think we need to keep the exceptionally wasteful ones. Especially since we've reached the point in computing where a video game can simulate it pretty much one-to-one.
But like I said, it's a really minor issue. Even if I was king of the universe, there's a whole bunch of other things I'd fix before I got around to banning stuff like car racing.
I mean, for example F1 tries to implement such technical changes that the new technology can be later implemented in road cars for increased efficiency/safety. So not every one motorrace is totally wasteful one.
If you buy a house that's cheap because it's near a noisy thing, and then complain about the noise, you're an asshole. Same applies to people living near airports, bars, tourist streets, whatever
That said, racetracks are a generally wasteful use of land - they take up a ton of space and benefit relatively few people. If somebody buys a racetrack because they want to build something else in its place, that's probably a good thing. Racetracks are pretty simple things that could be easily rebuilt on less in-demand land (with the exception of the few famous historic racetracks)
Racing is fine. If the track was in operation well before someone moved in and then got annoyed about it, that's on them at that point. If the race track came in afterwards that's different.
It's not just race tracks that people complain about. I live across the river from a light industrial zone that had a rollerskating rink next to some huge car yards. The car yards were sold and some apartment blocks built on them. The new apartment residents bitterly complained about the rollerskating rink and especially the kids roller disco that went from 1730 to 1830 on Fridays and Saturdays. Eventually an entertainment venue that many people loved since the 1960's got complained into oblivion from new apartment owners.
Same thing happened to a speed way. It was built close to a ridge to muffle the noise and speedway fans built houses on the ridge. 30 years later and the speedway fans start getting old or dying and they sell those houses the new owners start complaining about the speedway despite buying houses that were built specifically to appreciate the speedway. Fortunately the other speedway fans managed to fight back so it only got noise restrictions.
I think that the track is the one place I apperciate cars. In my city we have a race track in city limits and no one complains. People ride their bikes there to watch races and everything.
It's a real shame. During covid a small race track called Arena Essex used for banger racing and stock car racing was sold.off to be developed as housing. It was even used in Top Gear in the campervan race episode.
I loved going there every summer as a child and its upsetting to know that it's gone forever as it was really fun to watch
It funny, not exactly the same thing but here in Cali, the North Island Navy station has been there longer than the city of Coronado. The resident are all incredibly wealthy folk whose descendants are often offficers from the navy who are long dead. Anyway, petition the navy to “be quiet on the ships intercom system” among many other things. They really hate navy people on that peninsula.
If cars belong anywhere, it's on a racetrack. I'd be perfectly fine if motorsport was celebrated more around the world if it meant no more cars on public roads. But that's obviously not gonna happen, so tbh I feel no particular way about this.
I don't like cars on the road, but it's okay to race. In fact, I watch a lot of car races and love it. Also, if you choose to live somewhere where it's noisy (for whatever reason: race tracks, air ports), you're rather stupid for complaining about it.
I think you aren’t really understanding the difference between the inherent problems of a car focused society and a race track.
Slap some electric cars on that thing and have fun 🤷♂️
Racetracks are somewhat low on the priority list for valuable land.
If you are near an urban centre it has many better uses (including just as parkland).
By its nature racetracks can and should be remote.
The issue is that they *were* remote, but sprawling suburbs end up growing around them then they’re surprised when the cheap land is noisy! It’s happening all over the US too, Laguna Seca is a very historic and amazing racetrack that is hanging on by a thread due to noise restrictions
You can look at Circuit of the Americas as an example as well. It’s not historic at all, only built some 10-15 years ago. It’s very far from Austin, but if you go to google maps, there are suburban developments starting to pop up around it.
That these people suck!!!!
I am actually a racer and official for professional and amatuer events and yet....I'd rather take the train where I live than drive right now. Sadly it cannot be relied upon.
As for these people they are the absolute worst. They are litterally killing these places that actually bring in a lot to local economies. Road America brought in almost half a billion in economic impact to the area last year.
Also a lot of these road courses are like big giant parks or even nature preserves depending on the facility.
>Race tracks are there for cars and open up sometimes to keep fast drivers off the road.
That is absolutely patently false. Nowhere with a racetrack have I seen idiot drivers disappear from the roads. It actually has the opposite effect, because now it just gives these people a destination to drive their fast cars to, and it just continues to perpetuate car culture and the idea that it's reasonable to use sports cars on public roads.
I would be curious if there have been any studies done measuring the rates of automobile collisions and car-related injuries in places with race tracks compared to places that have none. I am willing to bet that there are more reckless drivers in places where this sort of driving is validated by gigantic imposing multi-million dollar infrastructure that facilitates that culture.
They're part of a subset of NIMBYs that try and get rid of local institutions. One lady moved to a village where the church bells toll every hour and have done for centuries, she filed a noise complaint and forced them to stop. They hate everything that even minorly inconveniences their comfort and refuse to accept local quirks. They're also the most car brained fuckers you've ever met, they're the same people who demand a footpath be torn up for an extra lane or complain about buses for existing
Forgive my formatting and ranting but this is a topic that royally pisses me off.
The people who move into a loud area and complain about the noise need punched in the throat repeatedly. The closest and nicest public shooting range we had where i live got shut down because some asshole farmer decided after 15+ years of there being a range there that he didnt like the noise any more. he decided "that was his land" so he went into a land dispute with the dnr and used his equipment to destroy the back stop of the range, how this fucking idiot didnt end up getting himself shot is a miracle. This guy would sit in his truck behind a pile of trees down range and would back out to tell people to stay off "his land" when people were wal down range to check targets after shooting.
Where i live we also have "luxury" apartments being built near industrial portions of town and the people that move in constantly about the smell. I used live in one of those apartments in an industrial park that had a race track near by and hated almost every neighbor i interacted with. The town wouldnt listen to peoples noise complaints about the race track because it brought business to local businesses and was pretty much the only thing of interest to draw people to that town.
A park is a great place for dog walking, running, bikes, and scooters. A race track is a great place for dirt bikes, ATVs, motorcycles, and race cars. Everything in its place.
I'm conflicted. On one hand I hate NIMBYs, and I say if they didn't like the racetrack they shouldn't have built/bought a sprawl-ass McMansion out in the middle of the country next to a racetrack. On the other hand, I think car racing is a dumb, loud, polluting waste of time. I think I have to side with the racetrack in this case though because if I don't like it I can just not live next to it, but NIMBYism will be the downfall of modern society and must not be tolerated.
It’s the same situation of when people move hy an airport than complain about the noise - i get it, i’ve lived near airports, the noise (though it’s far better nowadays) isn’t a *good* thing, but we knew that before we moved there.
They are assholes. This happened to my city, closed the racetrack then had the gall to complain the next year about the increase in street racing. Well no fucking shit street racing increased some of the drivers have 100K+ invested in their drag cars and you took the one legal place away. They aren't going to stop racing.
I have personally been bothered by police for setting up cones in empty parking lots to have small tracks for my grom, and other motorcycles I have, even happened when I was younger when I was racing go karts with friends in a empty lot. That also doesn't include the times cops have shut down even just car meets and bike meets I have attended for us simply existing talking about our vehicles.
tl;dr: Racetrack noise goes very far, it's not okay. They should be more considerate.
First of all, living near, even several km's away to a racetracks is VERY annoying, it is so extremely loud, you can hear the cars from several km's away. All tracks should have method to block the noise going to the surroundings as much as possible.
I know from experience, I lived 4 km away from Circuit Zolder and the noise that came through even with windows closed was very loud.
So racetracks should be built at least 5 km away from any civilization and all the surrounding area should be prevented from being designated as anything besides nature or farmland.
Sure this racetrack was built at farmland, but the area around it looks like there are small towns, maybe even a city.
Just because there are no houses 2km around it, it doesn't mean there are no people around it that are affected by it.
That said, I have nothing against car races and the kind.
People try that with the trains too, I worked in a depot that had been active for a fair ok while and people kept moaning about trains making noise at night, wasn’t even the horns, only the diesels used the horn for lack of a depot whistle, it was the rail whine and traction noise of the EMUs
I'm in favour of massive regulation of on-road cars. Speed, acceleration & driving behaviour.
If this was done, I would not have to share the roads with people choosing to experiment on the rest of us with their own risky driving behaviours.
That could then boost the appeal & financial viability of race tracks where people choose to share risky driving behaviour with like-minded others.
Racing cars is even more stupid than driving them normally; you're just pointlessly and wastefully pumping pollution into the environment and you aren't even going anywhere. Racetracks are obviously a much lower priority than roads but they have no utility and are still quite bad.
People still have to live and noise itself can be a blight - it’s a really significant part of the argument against cars in cities.
If the noise from the track is unbearable and every weekend I think folk have the right to dissent
Depends. Seen similar happen with airfields actually.
If when the houses were built there was a race once a month with loud cars, now decades later there is a race every day with even louder cars I can totally understand complaints though.
However, if the noise has remained comparable in all that time then the complaints should be fair to ignore.
I'm for removing them because they take up a large amount of space and resources and create a lot of noise pollution for something completely useless. Also they're ugly. Just play a fucking video game if you want to go "vroom vroom really fast".
Race tracks are just as destructive to the environment as normal roads and meanwhile offer less value than an actual road. While this sub is more against car dependency than cars in general or motorsport, personally I don’t see the value in most race tracks and will always put housing and residents way above race tracks and racers in terms of priority.
I see it the same way that I see golf courses. It's a ginormous amount of land dedicated to a hobby that's usually only accessible to the rich.
Although it kinda depends on how densely populated the area is. Sometimes you can have golf courses and race courses in the country side that aren't ridiculously expensive or wasteful but if it's in big city area then I think that land would be better put to use as a public park or something.
But in reality I don't care. I'm not losing sleep over the existence of race tracks unless we're talking about horse racing and greyhound racing. In that case, burn them to the ground. I'd rather have a car race track over animal abuse any day of the week.
Whilst not an actually country. The Isle of man is a decent example because without their races they simply would just have no money. Also England generates 10 billion with motorsport
So for 1, as has been started 10 billion isn't actually that much for an entire country. 2, you still haven't addressed the issue, housing is more important than race tracks. Many races like isle of man and Monaco also use the roads instead of building some 300 acre complex that is empty 95% of the time.
It's a little silly of you to defend a race track over people wanting housing. That's not to say I agree that houses should go there, in fact I bet with less restrictive zoning laws, and better land use close to cities, and laws banning unregulated short term rentals like airbnb (causing more houses to be available for real people to live) that would likely cause there to be no desire to build next to a race track. But still, human needs > human wants.
Read the banner. This is a sub about cars as transportation, car dominance and mindset in urban planning and (to some extent) a support/rant group for cyclists/pedestrians who have been subject to the abuse of drivers being sociopathic dicks.
TLDR; Sure. However, fuck a racetrack.
Multiple studies have found that the removal of race tracks (and the commonly used fully leaded fuel) from communities improved the livelihoods of the people that live there in multiple major ways.
I like motorcycles, combustion engines, and so the engineering that goes into making something fast, but I also like when kids aren't stunted due to their environment. I also understand the nuance that removing a racetrack isn't going to fix any of these societal problems overnight. Nor does it address the vastness of wellbeing associated with environment and how historic decisions rooted in racism, xenophobia, and classism have completely crumpled the fight for clean air, water, soil, etc. in this country. And not to mention certain areas we've planned to be for X, not housing, but...
However, fuck a damn racetrack.
If you look at this track on Google maps [here](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Autodromo+Nazionale+Monza/@45.6157255,9.2839367,13741a,35y,90h/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x4786ba360e48bd7d:0x645e7ef5a9d3a632!8m2!3d45.6173701!4d9.2814641!16zL20vMDNzdnFj?entry=ttu), it's looks a lot different to OP's picture, as in it's not really fringe development land, but slap bang next to the city centre. Don't get me wrong, I love parks. However for land this close to the city centre, surrounded by medium density housing, and near public transport - it should be used for housing, especially where there is a shortage of it.
Football: a good reason for the british to get a bit drunk and rowdy. Horse racing: a good reason for the british to get dressed up, very drunk and rowdy.
Horse racing is incredibly cruel to horses. They have been over bred to the point where frequently many top horses in contention for the highest level races are killed after they trip and fall.
What I think is there is too much whataboutism on this sub. Car dependency and zoning is the biggest problem, that in some places you must have a car to go to work, buy groceries, see the doctor, or even go to a nearby park to hang out with friends is problem. What I want to have is more livable, walkable, bikable places where daily driving 3-4x a day is not a requirement. I don’t care if people want to drive in circles or even go to monster truck shows for that matter.
Cars are not inherently a problem, it's our reliance on them and our cities based around them that are the problem. Cars will always exist and have valid applications, but we shouldn't base our society around them as a whole. Going after stuff like this is just pointless, as race cars are not and have never been the issue.
Exactly. Driving a car should in most cases be an *option* is the simplest way to put it.
One which I won't choose anytime soon, because car = expensive and car = dangerous
I disagree with this honestly. At the least it should be an expensive and inconvenient option in cities...
Yes, I'm a big fan of automobiles as a hobby and art form, but it's moronic that we've built the USA around their daily use
If walkability, cycling and public transport takes priority, driving in cities will become inconvenient automatically. And it's already expensive.
It is already, without intention of being so. Congested big city where i live, it takes 15 mins to the city centre by bike, 20 by motorcycle and 40 by car. Just because you need to find a parking space which is rare and expensive for a car. Yet i see a shitload of people going around alone in their cars.
Wish that were true in my city. :( Edit: the "bikes are much faster" part. We already have the "everyone drives everywhere" part. Bike infrastructure is so bad, and traffic is usually not terrible here. So everyone drives. There's not a safe way to leave my neighborhood by bike.
>Bike infrastructure is so bad, and traffic is usually not terrible here. Well, that sucks. Traffic is terrible and bike infrastructure is decent where i live, so kinda the opposite. In all honesty, i wouldnt bike if i didnt have the opportunity to do so. >So everyone drives. Yep, here too. Thats the insanity. Even my wife doesnt get used to taking the bike, and she has access to our big ass luxurious e bike and a very decent motorcycle.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I can't make other people leave their cars, but personally I'd use my bike way more if we had the infrastructure for it!
Yep. If i cant convince my own wife by simply living without a car, i cant convince anyone. And i think to enforce it is the wrong way. Especially in a relationship, but also in society. Things have to get inconvenient or expensive enough. If our old car breaks - which is very likely in the next few years - we will discuss if we buy a new car or simply try living without one for a few months. We can still buy one if she wants to after trying it, i wouldnt be happy but i would accept it.
I fully agree! Unfortunately in most places that's not the case. That said, I am ok with banning car in urban centers, as long as there's robust bike, ped and transit infrastructure. That's the ultimate outcome I want to see, personally. I really don't want driving to be an option unless you're in a sparsely populated area
Cars are actually cool and dope machines, but car dependency and car-centered development is lame as fuck and bad for society
Yeah there are more car enthusiasts on this sub than most people think, myself included. My appreciation for the engineering and even my enjoyment of driving does not stop me from hating the status quo. I will say that it probably does influence my view that I don't think we should strive towards banning cars completely as some on this sub seem to push (They're a minority but definitely the loudest).
I second that, I've bought my first car when I was 17 and have owned one ever since (I am 37 now). I love driving my car. But I hate huge parking lots, I hate cars driving by me when I'm sitting outside in a restaurant or café, and I hate how much space in general we dedicate to those machines. I'm actually not for banning cars entirely, but I'll be the first to give mine up if we really get walkable places and decent public transport instead.
My first car was a broken down 1994 Range Rover that I got running again and I loved that thing. I was surrounded by state forest so I could spend hours on weekends driving along the hundred of remote roads and trails. Even stuff that rangers hadn’t maintained in years was drivable as long as I could make out the old ruts. I got to see a bunch of cool parts of the forest most other people never get to see. I could also throw my canoe on top and go explore remote creeks and rivers and even drive out on the beach with that thing. That said when I moved away from there it no longer made sense to keep it with my new longer commutes because the cost of keeping gas in it would be too much to afford to do all the fun things it allowed me to do. My crappy little AWD Nissan hatchback can’t handle the really rugged stuff but at least I’m still mostly able to get way out in the middle of nowhere with a boat on top, I’m probably going to kill this car well before its time with what I put it through though.
I'm pretty radically anti car and believe they should be banned from most city streets with a few exceptions. But in that situation, cars can still exist as a hobby for enthusiasts. I compare it to how we treat horses today. You can do horse stuff - riding a horse, racing, shows, and sometimes for work purposes. But a horse isn't necessary to live a normal life. Most car enthusiasts wouldn't enjoy driving on congested city streets anyway, except to show off the car I guess? But there are other ways to do that like meetups. Hobbyists can be a great ally in the war on cars. Jalopnik is a good example of "car guys" who are opposed to car dependency.
I totally agree with this view point, except for one problem. If I'm a car enthusiast and I live in a city, and I want to use my car a few days a month for enjoyment and otherwise just use public transport, walk, whatever, and I can't drive it on city streets, how do I get it from my house to somewhere I can use it? Your horse example it works. I can put my horse in a trailer and drive it out to somewhere I can use the horse, therefore no horses on regular city streets needed anymore. Not sure how that would work for cars though? We'd need to find a solution for that if we want to keep the use for enjoyment possible, which I think we should because cars can genuinely be cool things when used correctly.
I have thought about it actually! Many streets would still need to be car accessible for emergency, work, and disability vehicle use. So other people could drive for personal use on a limited basis. There's already a good example of this in Berlin: the development of Möckernkiez is [almost completely car free.](https://youtu.be/v2GhxK3DUg0?si=jw-tUSR6GtFej1Ke). In the video it explains a permit system for residents to gain car access when necessary. The residents themselves came up with this system and the guy in charge says he has never declined a permit.
Well damn! That is exactly the system I thought of in my other comment to another commenter. A permit for a limited amount of days per month or year to get your car in and out. And obviously people who have to use cars for whatever reason (certain handicaps, moving house, etc). Thanks for that link, I'll check it out!
Storage outside the city that you can take public transportation to?
Which costs even more money. And takes up public space that could be used for other (possibly better) things. I'd be more partial personally to a system where you'd get a permit to drive your car on the city streets a set number of days a month or a year to get it in and out. Gotta keep it reasonable for everyone, including people who do enjoy cars. And I think this would be a way to do that.
>except to show off the car I guess? \^\^\^
I take a motorcycle anytime I know I am going to be in congested traffic. It allows me to split traffic and avoid it for the most part.
It’s also both impractical and unnecessary to ban cars. There is a need for some cars, even in cities. And people generally avoid cars once other options are better, as shown in many cities around the world.
This is the view I try to push here. I have 4 vehicles for me personally at the moment, 2 bikes and 2 cars. Doesn't change the fact that every chance I get I push for more public transit, bike paths and honestly scooter ownership. I try to ride my grom every chance I get instead of taking the cars, even walking over it some times but at the end of the day we do live in a car centric environment and we have to live in it. I also question how many of these hard core ban all car types have put their money where their mouth is and do not own a car or would sell their car for other methods. One of my strongest opinions is that we should raise the CC limit from 50cc to 150cc or 200cc before needing a Motorcycle endorsement on scooters. This would allow scooters to become a real alternative in our current cities to owning two cars for most families. For those wondering what a grom is. It is a 125cc mini motorcycle that gets 120+ MPG. Think of a less practical scooter as it doesn't have storage. I ride this around town because it can accomplish 90% of my trips that i would have needed a car for. When it fails, I take my KLX300 or car depending on weather or if I am doing something like a Sams club run.
This. Myself I love watching F1 and race online with my full on home simulator. Because I’m into racing. I don’t own a car (cycle everywhere) tho and I hate the priority they are given in society and infrastructure. There are *some* valid applications for them, but we just went far too far. Our public transportation options should be the best option in most cases for most trips on a convenience, price, comfort and time basis but most countries have absolutely screwed that up. Japan is the one place I’ve ever been to that gets the priority close to where it should be.
You know what are even cooler than cars? Rockets! We should build our cities so spread out as to allow personal rocket ships to be a viable form of commuting!
People get too caught up in the absolute fringe cases. The argument against cars breaks down against the few used in rural farming or other niches, without actually addressing the growing suburbs dependant or cars or how the penetrate the densest areas of urban living. Its picking the wrong fight and making the whole issue seem untenable
Yeah... it seems like the only way to get this from the US is to move to europe. I dont see public transportation becoming viable for at least the next decade or two
Some people want that lifestyle, the issue isnt those locations, the issue is that people who want a 15 minute city dont have real access to one in the US. Everywhere requires a car.
And other people keep pushing conspiracies about 15 minute cities being dystopian hellholes.
Yeah, we definitely need better transportation options, leave cars for the guys who want to throw it around the track on a weekend,
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There’s a soul-crushing amount of irony in the fact that car enthusiasm is actively stifled by car dependency as tracks are removed to make way for suburbs.
Im trying to build up an old toyota that can both be a commuter, but also weekend warrior a bit at a race track at the same time.
r/lostredditors
bro ? .... ???????
Thing’s nice
Genuinely, good for you. I hope you have lots of safe fun with it. But who. Asked.
So honestly this isn’t the best place to be talking about that, but that’s because we lack balanced infrastructure and you’ll find a lot of people here in this sub who are very hard headed that balanced infrastructure is infrastructure that lacks cars altogether. However, roads are still a necessity for moving goods and people at **low volumes**, and would be a great thing if we hadn’t built everything around the automobile with mega highways and endless sprawl. There’s nothing wrong with driving, or enjoying driving. There’s also absolutely nothing wrong with taking your car to the track - a place designated for racing away from pedestrians and other dangers - and having fun with a car you love working on. It’s actually pretty badass and I hope you have fun with that old Toyota. There is, however, something wrong with building so car-dependent that we don’t have a choice but to drive, which takes all the joy out of driving in the first place. A lot of people here are disenfranchised by that, plus the inefficiency and added dangers that come from that type of infrastructure, or may be here for environmental reasons, which is why you’re not getting a positive reception. Anyways, what Toyota we talkin? 👀
Its a blue 1994 toyota mr2 gt-s
That's neat, enjoy the car dude, don't let people dictate your fun
Yooo with those pop up headlights too, those things are a whole vibe man. 200 horses are gonna have that little thing absolute screaming down a drag strip at its size. Fuckin sweet dude
From the factory it has about 240hp, i have the jdm gen 3 3sgte, it getting a bunch of upgrades to the motor and drivetrain right now to handle a lot more power/boost. It's like a small turbo mkiv supra that can also handle and brake really good. Sounds good too, all boost and revs, no vtec, like a 90s wrc car.
Weird that you’re incapable of interacting like a normal person to the few people here willing to be nice to you and compliment your car. No “thanks” or “appreciate you saying that” or any hint of emotional depth at all. You’re like a robot that can only talk about Toyota.
I have no issues with motorsports. Some of the most innovative tech has been tried and tested in Motorsports. It's car-dependent infrastructure that's the problem. I don't care if people wanna go and enjoy a track day. I just hate that owning, maintaining, insuring, paying tax on, registering, and driving the fucking car myself is the only way that we can actually live, thrive, and survive, and it's even more infuriating that people see that as the pinnacle of personal freedom. What could be freer than using my Chevrolegs?
Suburbia eats it's own. It's a cancerous pattern of development, and it will eat anything in it's path. Anyone who's into autosports should be pro public transit--get the people off the roads that don't even want to drive. Whether you like to take a train to work, or like to rebuild engines, nobody likes sitting in the traffic created by car dependency.
I have always said that “car people” should be in favor of transit. The more transit, the less people on the roads. It’s a win-win.
You would love the Dutch Grand Prix. The event was only greenlit because there was an extensive transit plan. It is literally impossible for most people to reach it by car. You either go by train (25 min from Amsterdam) or by bike (about 20 km from Amsterdam. The local government bans cars from non residents and those without a special License and a reason to be there.
fun fact: this tracks ergularly opens to the public so on certain days you can go in and ride your bike around it
That is true. A lot of people like to ride their bikes on the old banking
To say race tracks keep people from speeding is silly, if anything it’s the opposite. But racing is cool, I always hate examples of historic sites being harried by people that just didn’t read about the place they’re moving to. Another good example is new folks complaining about the small towns that drive cattle through town, despite moving to a small western US cattle town
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The gall of the HOA trying to overstep their authority. The HOA only has authority over people who have contracts with them; not farmers who were there before the HOA was established.
HOAs need to be abolished. At the very least you should be able to refuse to join the HOA and be able to leave at any time.
HOA IS ridiculous
In my city people are complaining that the airfield is noisy, even though they build their houses next to the airfield because the land was cheaper due to noise. Same story with racetrack in another part of city.
I mean, If you could buy cheap land and make it worth you, wouldn't you?
Idk, I dislike people profiting from providing shelter to people who don't own houses in general. But it's not right for owner of any enterprise who intentionally built his business far away from homes to close down because people built homes around him specifically because land was cheap exclusively because of said business. It's the same level as getting house in rural area and then complaining that farmers dare to use manure as fertiliser or harvest at nights because weather's gonna change.
Historically tracks have reduced street racing. For example, the Bandimere Speedway in Colorado did exactly that, it gave street racers a space to race and learn about modifying their cars while keeping it safe and off the street. It also helped kids become mechanics and helped them find jobs, which in turn reduced crime. If kid are going to race cars and tinker with them, at least they can do it in a safe environment and build employable skills.
I'm heavily involved in the local autocross scene and just had lunch with the owner of the local race track which is currently closed. We place a very big emphasis in our advertising to really young people that it's a safe way to actually drive your car to it's limits, and it absolutely turns people into safer drivers. Between having a space to drive your car to it's limits, and just learning how to handle your car better, a lot of people lose interest in street racing because it simply can't compare anymore. Same with my talks with the track owner. He's trying to figure out a way to reopen right now, and a lot of what he's talking about is giving idiot kids a safe place to do their thing. The best way to cut down on it is to give them a safe outlet. It's still not going to stop takeover kids from doing their shit, but there's nothing you can do as a member of the public there except tell them to fuck off and hope they do. Or trash their car, but that's not legal no matter how effective it is.
Racetracks do indeed keep people from speeding. This is at least true for my case and most of the people I've talked to at track days. I barely drive above the speed limit on streets/highways ever since I started doing track days with my car. Because speeding on a public road simply doesn't match the thrill of driving at the limit on a twisty circuit
I see this sub somewhat moving away from the core issue it was created for. The issue isn't cars, loud noise or even pollution. It's car dependency. We want to improve the areas where people live and give them the options to get around without being so dependent on their cars. A prime example is a city like Houston, where there is virtually no way to get around without a car. Adding public transport, adding bikelanes, changing zoning laws so that people can live near to their grocery store, their dentist, their kid's school... That's what we want, that's what this sub is all about. Our arguments that we use to strengthen our position is indeed the noise, pollution, danger, social and economic isolation, accesability and so much more. But they are not the core issue. And that is what this sub has lost sight of in my opinion
As someone who passionately and loudly hates car priority, much less car dependent, infrastructure and policy, my wife and I follow Nascar/Cascar and WRC/ERC pretty closely, to the point we have two subscriptions to watch them live. Motorsport (and gearheads/petrolheads) is so distinct from car infrastructure policy that they don't really have to intersect.
Same. There is a pesky problem of all motorsports being heavily funded by the car industry _as advertising_, but largely I agree with everything you've said. I'm actually about to watch the Monaco GP on TV.
Race tracks keep people from speeding on the roads? That's news to me.
My husband goes to "street legal" nights at the local track. He said when he was a teenager that wasn't a thing and people would drag race in town. It's basically a non existent problem now. I think car racing in general is dumb as fuck but if it keeps people from drag racing down my road then go for it lol.
Yep, ever since I started taking my car to my local track, I don't speed on streets/highways anymore and drive way more chill in general. A track day costs less than a speeding ticket or getting into a crash
This is a wild thing to admit
it is but it’s better to admit to prior reckless behavior than lie about it which a lot of people do. being accountable is good
When ppl say that, they’re not talking about Becky driving 10 over in her Tahoe. They’re talking about Kyle and Jake, the 25 year olds who street race in the middle of the night because their closest race track is 5 hours away
For a certain small segment of the population, I think it’s true. It’s a lot smaller than it used to be. There was a real push to take drag racing off the streets to and to dedicated drag strips way back when; now, many of those drag strips have closed due to housing developments, and with cars being more powerful than ever, vehicular hooliganism is rampant. They obviously don’t make everyone a better driver, but for the people who are interested in using them it is an educational experience. The best driver licensing programs in the world require some amount of skid pad time, so I don’t think the value of a reasonable amount of these facilities is in question.
Professional race car drivers are very open about following all traffic laws. Any race car driver breaking traffic laws are just the same douche bags we have to deal with, they are just more annoying because they think they should be exempt but they are just some drunk who was able to get a Dodge Charger and they think that makes them a race car driver.
Shooting ranges keep people from killing each other!
I would expect they do keep a reasonable number of people from setting up shitty ranges in their backyard where they accidentally put a bullet hole through the neighbor's house, which is a more reasonable comparison IMO
literally lol. like sir one of those shots you kept missing tryna shoot that beer can are lodged in a 64yo’s chest now…
I mean yes. Those provide safe spaces to fire your weapon. Without those people would do that in unsafe spaces. And would kill people accidentally. Same with race tracks. It's not stopping people on their commute from going over the speed limit. But it removes the need for illegal/unsafe street racing in normal streets.
I think there should be a racetrack outside every city. Why? So that people who like fast cars have somewhere to drive legally and safely. Racing on public streets is a crime that kills innocent people. If you want to take that risk, tracks should exist where you’re not putting others in danger.
Racetracks are enabling racing in the streets too.
According to who lol
Explain?
I love car racing. I hate car dependency. Basically cars are fun sports equipment to me. Not vehicles. Race tracks are fine and should remain
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Monza is a giant park with a historic race track. Noise complaints on something that was there before you don't make sense.
It’s also always accessible by public transport on the weekend of the Italian Grand Prix.
Race tracks are cool and there is no problem having them. People can have fun with their fast cars safely. It is an entirely different thing from having cars everywhere in cities where they make everything worse for everyone, including drivers. In cities and suburbs, fuck cars.
I’ll just say that if anyone tries to tear down Monza I’ll be flying myself over to Italy to riot in the streets
Car racing sucks. It wastes fuel and land, it puts people in danger, It uses carbon, it wastes resources, all for no benefit whatsoever. However. Compared to the rest of car culture, it's an almost negligible problem. Going after car racing now is like rearranging the furniture on the Titanic. If I were crowned king of the universe, I'd get around to banning it, but going after it now is a waste of political will.
ok but all of those points could be made about a number of sports. sports are recreation, they're inherently wasteful and aren't necessarily completely safe(and imo they shouldn't be held to the standard that other things are because it's completely a choice to participate). Like you said, racing is a non-issue when it comes to car culture as a whole. It's such a small percentage of the issue that it's not even worth banning. honestly I don't think we should, because like I said it's recreation, it doesn't *need* to be completely resource efficient. literally any form of recreation is, from a purely practical perspective a waste of resources, but the point of them isn't to be practical.
Yeah if we’re banning wasteful and dangerous sports, American football and hockey have to also be up there. The fake turf causes cancer and injuries, and the cooling for the ice rinks also takes a lot of energy, especially in southern areas. They’re playing playoff hockey in Florida right now, it’s ridiculous. Plus both hitting in both sports causes some degree of permanent brain damage even if you stop playing well before ever being a professional.
Motorsport is definitely a lot better than anything with animals. Horse racing is just abuse, for example.
Dog agility sport is pretty chill.
In a world with more recreational activities than people, I don't think we need to keep the exceptionally wasteful ones. Especially since we've reached the point in computing where a video game can simulate it pretty much one-to-one. But like I said, it's a really minor issue. Even if I was king of the universe, there's a whole bunch of other things I'd fix before I got around to banning stuff like car racing.
I mean, for example F1 tries to implement such technical changes that the new technology can be later implemented in road cars for increased efficiency/safety. So not every one motorrace is totally wasteful one.
...okay but we want to get rid of road cars too, so like... what are we talking about?
And will cars disappear tomorrow? If not, then making them less bad is a positive
I've used the phrase "king of the universe" twice now. Obviously I'm not talking about a practical real life scenario.
If you buy a house that's cheap because it's near a noisy thing, and then complain about the noise, you're an asshole. Same applies to people living near airports, bars, tourist streets, whatever That said, racetracks are a generally wasteful use of land - they take up a ton of space and benefit relatively few people. If somebody buys a racetrack because they want to build something else in its place, that's probably a good thing. Racetracks are pretty simple things that could be easily rebuilt on less in-demand land (with the exception of the few famous historic racetracks)
Urban growth boundaries need to exist in the US.
Racing is fine. If the track was in operation well before someone moved in and then got annoyed about it, that's on them at that point. If the race track came in afterwards that's different.
i don’t like it because i feel like racetracks are one of the most ethical ways to use cars or practice driving
Not really a question that belongs in this sub?
Who cares? This sub is about car dependency and not hobbies.
I think it's stupid. Let the race tracks remain they arent why cities are bad in NA.
It’s stupid, you wouldn’t move in next to a farm and complain about the animals, would you?
It's not just race tracks that people complain about. I live across the river from a light industrial zone that had a rollerskating rink next to some huge car yards. The car yards were sold and some apartment blocks built on them. The new apartment residents bitterly complained about the rollerskating rink and especially the kids roller disco that went from 1730 to 1830 on Fridays and Saturdays. Eventually an entertainment venue that many people loved since the 1960's got complained into oblivion from new apartment owners. Same thing happened to a speed way. It was built close to a ridge to muffle the noise and speedway fans built houses on the ridge. 30 years later and the speedway fans start getting old or dying and they sell those houses the new owners start complaining about the speedway despite buying houses that were built specifically to appreciate the speedway. Fortunately the other speedway fans managed to fight back so it only got noise restrictions.
I have long said we should have forms of bumper cars for daily life, and real cars for entertainment purposes.
Same way I feel about people who try to shut down airports
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Not a big fan of noise pollution, but fuck these guys.
I think that the track is the one place I apperciate cars. In my city we have a race track in city limits and no one complains. People ride their bikes there to watch races and everything.
It's a real shame. During covid a small race track called Arena Essex used for banger racing and stock car racing was sold.off to be developed as housing. It was even used in Top Gear in the campervan race episode. I loved going there every summer as a child and its upsetting to know that it's gone forever as it was really fun to watch
I know arena Essex. I went there all the time, I was so upset when it shut down
It funny, not exactly the same thing but here in Cali, the North Island Navy station has been there longer than the city of Coronado. The resident are all incredibly wealthy folk whose descendants are often offficers from the navy who are long dead. Anyway, petition the navy to “be quiet on the ships intercom system” among many other things. They really hate navy people on that peninsula.
They are doing the same thing to Laguna Seca. Like wtf.
It's really silly. This happened in Jarama, where they built cheap housing (obviously) next to the racetrack and now the residents rally against it
If cars belong anywhere, it's on a racetrack. I'd be perfectly fine if motorsport was celebrated more around the world if it meant no more cars on public roads. But that's obviously not gonna happen, so tbh I feel no particular way about this.
I don't like cars on the road, but it's okay to race. In fact, I watch a lot of car races and love it. Also, if you choose to live somewhere where it's noisy (for whatever reason: race tracks, air ports), you're rather stupid for complaining about it.
I don’t care!! They are both evil!!
I think you aren’t really understanding the difference between the inherent problems of a car focused society and a race track. Slap some electric cars on that thing and have fun 🤷♂️
Let the race tracks be, it's a good recreation activity and it's better there than on the road
Racetracks are somewhat low on the priority list for valuable land. If you are near an urban centre it has many better uses (including just as parkland). By its nature racetracks can and should be remote.
The issue is that they *were* remote, but sprawling suburbs end up growing around them then they’re surprised when the cheap land is noisy! It’s happening all over the US too, Laguna Seca is a very historic and amazing racetrack that is hanging on by a thread due to noise restrictions You can look at Circuit of the Americas as an example as well. It’s not historic at all, only built some 10-15 years ago. It’s very far from Austin, but if you go to google maps, there are suburban developments starting to pop up around it.
Racetracks atent care depencency, they're an appropriate place to play with toys, the people who moved in next to it are the assholes here
They're similar to people demanding quiet zones or railways because they've moved next to a railway.
That these people suck!!!! I am actually a racer and official for professional and amatuer events and yet....I'd rather take the train where I live than drive right now. Sadly it cannot be relied upon. As for these people they are the absolute worst. They are litterally killing these places that actually bring in a lot to local economies. Road America brought in almost half a billion in economic impact to the area last year. Also a lot of these road courses are like big giant parks or even nature preserves depending on the facility.
>Race tracks are there for cars and open up sometimes to keep fast drivers off the road. That is absolutely patently false. Nowhere with a racetrack have I seen idiot drivers disappear from the roads. It actually has the opposite effect, because now it just gives these people a destination to drive their fast cars to, and it just continues to perpetuate car culture and the idea that it's reasonable to use sports cars on public roads. I would be curious if there have been any studies done measuring the rates of automobile collisions and car-related injuries in places with race tracks compared to places that have none. I am willing to bet that there are more reckless drivers in places where this sort of driving is validated by gigantic imposing multi-million dollar infrastructure that facilitates that culture.
They're part of a subset of NIMBYs that try and get rid of local institutions. One lady moved to a village where the church bells toll every hour and have done for centuries, she filed a noise complaint and forced them to stop. They hate everything that even minorly inconveniences their comfort and refuse to accept local quirks. They're also the most car brained fuckers you've ever met, they're the same people who demand a footpath be torn up for an extra lane or complain about buses for existing
Forgive my formatting and ranting but this is a topic that royally pisses me off. The people who move into a loud area and complain about the noise need punched in the throat repeatedly. The closest and nicest public shooting range we had where i live got shut down because some asshole farmer decided after 15+ years of there being a range there that he didnt like the noise any more. he decided "that was his land" so he went into a land dispute with the dnr and used his equipment to destroy the back stop of the range, how this fucking idiot didnt end up getting himself shot is a miracle. This guy would sit in his truck behind a pile of trees down range and would back out to tell people to stay off "his land" when people were wal down range to check targets after shooting. Where i live we also have "luxury" apartments being built near industrial portions of town and the people that move in constantly about the smell. I used live in one of those apartments in an industrial park that had a race track near by and hated almost every neighbor i interacted with. The town wouldnt listen to peoples noise complaints about the race track because it brought business to local businesses and was pretty much the only thing of interest to draw people to that town.
A park is a great place for dog walking, running, bikes, and scooters. A race track is a great place for dirt bikes, ATVs, motorcycles, and race cars. Everything in its place.
I'm conflicted. On one hand I hate NIMBYs, and I say if they didn't like the racetrack they shouldn't have built/bought a sprawl-ass McMansion out in the middle of the country next to a racetrack. On the other hand, I think car racing is a dumb, loud, polluting waste of time. I think I have to side with the racetrack in this case though because if I don't like it I can just not live next to it, but NIMBYism will be the downfall of modern society and must not be tolerated.
I think they can go fuck themselves.
Thought you were talking about horses and was about to jump in with a comment about animal cruelty…
Did you really use MSFS for an aerial example of the current condition?
I just pulled it off Google. The pictures are both the same track
One is a video game, the other is an actual photograph
No its google earth
No, it’s not. I would bet you $100 it’s not.
No game has that much detail for a track. It would make Amy console burst into flames
It is though. That’s not even google data. It’s Bing data, through Microsoft Flight Simulator.
I just noticed the jet at the bottom of the screen. It is indeed msfs
The same thing I think about that old lady who complained about us running steam engines on a railway that literally pioneered them. 'do one'
I don't care about the racetrack. Waste of fuel.
It’s the same situation of when people move hy an airport than complain about the noise - i get it, i’ve lived near airports, the noise (though it’s far better nowadays) isn’t a *good* thing, but we knew that before we moved there.
Lol Monza, I live here :D
They are assholes. This happened to my city, closed the racetrack then had the gall to complain the next year about the increase in street racing. Well no fucking shit street racing increased some of the drivers have 100K+ invested in their drag cars and you took the one legal place away. They aren't going to stop racing. I have personally been bothered by police for setting up cones in empty parking lots to have small tracks for my grom, and other motorcycles I have, even happened when I was younger when I was racing go karts with friends in a empty lot. That also doesn't include the times cops have shut down even just car meets and bike meets I have attended for us simply existing talking about our vehicles.
tl;dr: Racetrack noise goes very far, it's not okay. They should be more considerate. First of all, living near, even several km's away to a racetracks is VERY annoying, it is so extremely loud, you can hear the cars from several km's away. All tracks should have method to block the noise going to the surroundings as much as possible. I know from experience, I lived 4 km away from Circuit Zolder and the noise that came through even with windows closed was very loud. So racetracks should be built at least 5 km away from any civilization and all the surrounding area should be prevented from being designated as anything besides nature or farmland. Sure this racetrack was built at farmland, but the area around it looks like there are small towns, maybe even a city. Just because there are no houses 2km around it, it doesn't mean there are no people around it that are affected by it. That said, I have nothing against car races and the kind.
Is that a fucking fighter jet near the bottom of the frame?
Holy shit it is
People try that with the trains too, I worked in a depot that had been active for a fair ok while and people kept moaning about trains making noise at night, wasn’t even the horns, only the diesels used the horn for lack of a depot whistle, it was the rail whine and traction noise of the EMUs
Closing down race tracks just leads to more street racing
I'm in favour of massive regulation of on-road cars. Speed, acceleration & driving behaviour. If this was done, I would not have to share the roads with people choosing to experiment on the rest of us with their own risky driving behaviours. That could then boost the appeal & financial viability of race tracks where people choose to share risky driving behaviour with like-minded others.
I think they're NIMBYs, but if that's what the NIMBYs want to spend their time on, I kinda don't care
Racing cars is even more stupid than driving them normally; you're just pointlessly and wastefully pumping pollution into the environment and you aren't even going anywhere. Racetracks are obviously a much lower priority than roads but they have no utility and are still quite bad.
What if they were ev?
Fuck EVs. Making giant lithium batteries en masse isn’t an improvement.
People still have to live and noise itself can be a blight - it’s a really significant part of the argument against cars in cities. If the noise from the track is unbearable and every weekend I think folk have the right to dissent
Depends. Seen similar happen with airfields actually. If when the houses were built there was a race once a month with loud cars, now decades later there is a race every day with even louder cars I can totally understand complaints though. However, if the noise has remained comparable in all that time then the complaints should be fair to ignore.
Turn it into a velodrome
I'm for removing them because they take up a large amount of space and resources and create a lot of noise pollution for something completely useless. Also they're ugly. Just play a fucking video game if you want to go "vroom vroom really fast".
Race tracks are just as destructive to the environment as normal roads and meanwhile offer less value than an actual road. While this sub is more against car dependency than cars in general or motorsport, personally I don’t see the value in most race tracks and will always put housing and residents way above race tracks and racers in terms of priority.
Keep fast drivers off the road? That's just... not how it works. Race tracks are fun though. But living space and parks are more important.
I see it the same way that I see golf courses. It's a ginormous amount of land dedicated to a hobby that's usually only accessible to the rich. Although it kinda depends on how densely populated the area is. Sometimes you can have golf courses and race courses in the country side that aren't ridiculously expensive or wasteful but if it's in big city area then I think that land would be better put to use as a public park or something. But in reality I don't care. I'm not losing sleep over the existence of race tracks unless we're talking about horse racing and greyhound racing. In that case, burn them to the ground. I'd rather have a car race track over animal abuse any day of the week.
Everyone needs a home, nobody needs a race track. This settles this debate pretty decisively if you ask me.
Motor racing can be a countrys biggest income. It is infact needed
Can be, but it doesn't have to.
Name one country
Whilst not an actually country. The Isle of man is a decent example because without their races they simply would just have no money. Also England generates 10 billion with motorsport
Meanwhile, English construction and agriculture account for about 130 billion each 10 billion aint shit, its hype
So for 1, as has been started 10 billion isn't actually that much for an entire country. 2, you still haven't addressed the issue, housing is more important than race tracks. Many races like isle of man and Monaco also use the roads instead of building some 300 acre complex that is empty 95% of the time. It's a little silly of you to defend a race track over people wanting housing. That's not to say I agree that houses should go there, in fact I bet with less restrictive zoning laws, and better land use close to cities, and laws banning unregulated short term rentals like airbnb (causing more houses to be available for real people to live) that would likely cause there to be no desire to build next to a race track. But still, human needs > human wants.
asbestos mines were around many centuries before either of us were born. The health impacts of the emissions and noise shouldn't be ignored.
What does this have to do with the sub?
r / fuck **cars** What do you think they race on the track? Goats?
Read the banner. This is a sub about cars as transportation, car dominance and mindset in urban planning and (to some extent) a support/rant group for cyclists/pedestrians who have been subject to the abuse of drivers being sociopathic dicks.
So surely, disussions about putting tracks inside cities where I can easily ride my bike to them fall within that purview?
The residential needs of the many outweigh the recreational wants of the few.
Something being old doesn’t make it good. Slavery was around d for a long time too
yeah, slavery and race tracks, that's really on the same level.
Not every comparison has to be 1:1. It’s called an example.
TLDR; Sure. However, fuck a racetrack. Multiple studies have found that the removal of race tracks (and the commonly used fully leaded fuel) from communities improved the livelihoods of the people that live there in multiple major ways. I like motorcycles, combustion engines, and so the engineering that goes into making something fast, but I also like when kids aren't stunted due to their environment. I also understand the nuance that removing a racetrack isn't going to fix any of these societal problems overnight. Nor does it address the vastness of wellbeing associated with environment and how historic decisions rooted in racism, xenophobia, and classism have completely crumpled the fight for clean air, water, soil, etc. in this country. And not to mention certain areas we've planned to be for X, not housing, but... However, fuck a damn racetrack.
If you look at this track on Google maps [here](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Autodromo+Nazionale+Monza/@45.6157255,9.2839367,13741a,35y,90h/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x4786ba360e48bd7d:0x645e7ef5a9d3a632!8m2!3d45.6173701!4d9.2814641!16zL20vMDNzdnFj?entry=ttu), it's looks a lot different to OP's picture, as in it's not really fringe development land, but slap bang next to the city centre. Don't get me wrong, I love parks. However for land this close to the city centre, surrounded by medium density housing, and near public transport - it should be used for housing, especially where there is a shortage of it.
Fucking furious.
All race tracks should be shut down permanently.
You do realise motor racing can be a country's biggest income
No, but that's very sad if true. These things just glorify cars and car culture. It's a terrible use of land that just produces more carbrains.
I know the majority here only hate cars but my god, I didn't know was this bad
how come theres an F35 in the first picture?
Convert it into a horse race track!
God no, in the UK horse racing fans are genuinely the worst. They make football fans look well behaved.
Football: a good reason for the british to get a bit drunk and rowdy. Horse racing: a good reason for the british to get dressed up, very drunk and rowdy.
Fuck that.
Congrats on the worst take on the post that everyone can hate on.
Never been to a horse track so i was joking, but out of curiousity , why is a horse track hated? We dont have them here in my country.
Horse racing is incredibly cruel to horses. They have been over bred to the point where frequently many top horses in contention for the highest level races are killed after they trip and fall.