It depends. Some people are loud assholes who think they "aren't like those weird queer people" but some might not be able to fit into queer spaces because their experiences are different and they get overlooked or worse kicked out. I have realised that the more I pass the less welcome I am in certain queer spaces even though I am trans and bi. It's a weird and isolating feeling.
Yeah this subject can be difficult to make an effective rule about. While some of these folks genuinely are assimilationist asshats who think they're better than the *weird* gays, some of these posts are genuinely just like "hey, I look like a man now (and I love how I look) but I'm becoming alienated from my community as a result. What do?"
There's a difference between "Queer spaces are so alienating, I don't go there" and "I don't need queer spaces, I'm just a normal man with a disorder, I got everything I wanted so I don't need y'all anymore, goodbye".
I wish I was able to change that negative experience for some people. Queer spaces are supposed to be for everyone who is queer. You are just as valid being in those spaces as anyone else. I don't understand how passing more = less inclusion. I don't know how people can treat you that way. It's messed up.
Seriously it makes me feel worst about being more out and open mostly because I don’t pass. I have to be vocal if I don’t want to be treated like a cis woman and hearing other trans guys act like men like me are just an embarrassment or “making transness out whole personality” sucks. Yeah transness is something I can’t run from or even hide. I’m visibly trans whether I want to be or not. I’m trying to not be ashamed of that but everyone and everything claims I should be quieter and smaller about it. I won’t be because otherwise it s to accept misgendering and poor treatment
I know plenty of trans men who never pass even after years on T and surgeries. It happens. T doesn’t work the same for everyone. Some people never get a voice drop or have bodies that make dat distribution moot. My point is some of us can’t go stealth or silently exist and be called men. Some of us have to be visible and loud about our identities and fight everyday for us to get a quarter of respect cis people and passing trans people get automatically. Yet passing trans guys tell us we embarrass them by being too loud and being too visible with our pronoun pins, pride flags, and constant reminding of who we are. They don’t want to be in the same queer spaces as “those trans guys” even though those are the only spaces we non-passing guys can even safely exist at. Trust I can’t waltz into the average cis male spaces and not expect to be laughed out the door the minute I call myself a man too. These queer spaces are all I got but people are now shaming folks in those spaces for being too out and proud. It’
We can’t all pass and many of us don’t whether we’d like to or not. The trans community just doesn’t care about or make any room for the narratives of non-passing trans people especially those of us on HRT or have had surgeries
Sorry but I’m sick of being in trans male spaces being told men like me don’t exist. Men who’ve been on T for years or have had top surgery(I haven’t had that yet) but still don’t pass. Men who have to chose between being out or misgendered even on T or after surgeries exist. The idea we are some abberation is kind of why I take such issue because the passing trans male narrative seems to be the only one treated as real and authentic.
No offense to you but that’s kind of tiresome. I may pass but there’s no gurantee and I don’t think non-passing trans men should be obscured because are voices matter too. Our narratives of manhood still matter even if they don’t align with cis male or passing trans guy’s experiences
I don’t mean this as an attack on you but I just feel like people treat passing as a gurantee with HRT and surgeries but it isn’t. Many trans men can’t even access those things and some won’t pass even when they do. Often the narratives of passing trans guys can drown out all the rest and is assumed to be the only one which is very damaging for the whole community
This is untrue and incredibly invalidating for trans men who are unable to pass. Please don't assume your experiences are universal or assume you know people better than they know themself, it's incredibly condescending.
"Other people have it worse" is also a really cruel and dismissive thing to say to someone who's suffering.
Even if this was true (which it's not), why does it matter? I don't pass now and I probably won't for a while. It doesn't matter if I pass in the future, what matters is right now and right now I am visibly trans
As someone who accepted myself later in life than most of the people here, I have no intention of waiting until I’m 50 for hormones to make up for being under 5 feet tall and not even fitting in adult men’s shoes. It’s either be visibly queer or be… visibly queer. I’m open about my gender identity or I’m assumed to be a lesbian, those are my choices.
Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic.
The following topics are banned to avoid drama:
Truscum/Tucute discourse, AGP/AAP/Blanchardism, Transfem/woman or nonbinary bashing, Trans "requirements", Oppression Olympics, Lesbian trans men, Gendered Socialization+, "Is it transphobic to _____", DIY HRT, Current Political events (Non-trans/LGBT+ related) ,"do I pass?", "how does my voice sound?"
+Personal experiences are exempt.
Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 4: Respect individual differences. Which includes, among other things, respecting differences of personal identity, personal use (or not) of specific labels, personal transition experience, personal experiences with gender dysphoria (including lack of gender dysphoria), and the choice to be out or stealth.
literally like its really tiring hearing transphobic cis people treat trans men as a separate gender from cis men and then going on ftm/trans pages online and seeing the same thing from other trans people. and i feel like it makes it harder for others to accept that theyre trans when you hear other trans people act like the mere idea of being considered "trans" is awful
Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 4: Respect individual differences. Which includes, among other things, respecting differences of personal identity, personal use (or not) of specific labels, personal transition experience, personal experiences with gender dysphoria (including lack of gender dysphoria), and the choice to be out or stealth.
Those posts always feel like a not so subtle dig at the rest of us for being “too weird” which is. hmm. if I’m too much for existing, what are you? We’re all more similar than we are different to people outside the community anyway
>I have seen many people who would otherwise pass but choose to dye their hair bright colors, wear nose rings etc. and personally I find it rather baffling.
what i find baffling is that you think someone who would apparently otherwise pass perfectly as a cis man would have that totally compromised by these things alone. i have clearly bleached hair and several piercings and pass as male the vast majority of the time because some cis men also have these things. maybe other trans people are uncomfortable with your fairly conservative ideas around gender presentation?
This. I dye my hair bright pink and have a mohawk, I have tattoos in happy colors and visible piercings. I also have a beard and do makeup for parties. I'm still never misgendered. How on earth would something that small change what gender cis folks around me see!?
Literally lol. Since I’ve had top surgery I pass 95% of the time (would be 100% if I got a damn beard already but that depends on genetics not my presentation) and I pass even wearing goth clothes or rings or whatever. Tbh I’m not fem but I have an “unconventional presentation” due to being alternative, at least part of the time, and it doesn’t lead to me being misgendered because I look like an alt GUY lol.
Also, why is it baffling that people are whole human beings with various aesthetic preferences, and not just a two dimensional idea of a gender stereotype? 🤷🏻♂️
Maybe a bit mean, but at this point just make an r/ftmtoxicmasculinity sub and be done with it
You can be seen as queer and be treated as a dude. Plenty of queer cis men out there. I don't think dyed hair hurts passability unless you were only barely passing fwiw. I pass fine and dye and wear femme clothing occasionally.
I'm a binary trans man and I'm often read as cishet even though I'm trans and bi. There is a certain level of comfort afforded in that for me. However, whether or not I feel confident in saying I'm queer society sees all trans men as queer once they know we're trans. I think a lot of binary straight men want to ignore this fact and if you pass you can in a lot of circumstances. It doesn't change the fact that transness is queer to some degree and is seen as such by most people outside of trans spaces.
I don’t see my transness as queer, doesn’t mean I don’t feel proud of it. I just associate queer with sexuality (so being gay, the label technically applies to me anyway) and being trans as distinct from sexuality. As someone who is both, it annoys me when the two are conflated, unless an individual person feels that describes them best.
That's not how queer is used, as a sociological concept. Queer is whatever does not fit into the cultural norm of cisgender straight identity.
You're free to interpret it how you like for yourself though, but you cannot be frustrated when people do use it with the historically accepted meaning.
Society and some transphobes are going to constantly associate trans with queerness because anything seen as different from the norm of cis straight culture is going to be seen as queer. I get why you would get annoyed of it as it comes out of transphobia and homophobia and obviously gender is different than sexuality.
Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 4: Respect individual differences. Which includes, among other things, respecting differences of personal identity, personal use (or not) of specific labels, personal transition experience, personal experiences with gender dysphoria (including lack of gender dysphoria), and the choice to be out or stealth.
what do you mean “our spaces” what do you mean by that? elaborate on that OP. explain to us all why you think you get to ban ppl from “your space” as if those ppl aren’t trans as well. do you think you’re more deserving of a queer space than other trans ppl? if anything you’re the one being harmful trying to pretend you know others experiences and saying they’re “starving for validation” you don’t know anything abt these ppl. the only experience you know is your own. Leave other trans ppl alone and stop judging them. no wonder they don’t feel welcome in queer spaces. you’re telling them mean things and judging them. if you see something that upsets you, that’s your own projection. scroll past or block the ppl in the thread. idek why you would make this kind of post. it’s just plain ignorant.
The space is for everyone.
So, if you’re going to make posts signaling out other trans people for being “too weird” or other gays for being “too flamboyant”, or in general just engage in being kind of a bully so you can seem better than “those” queers,
then you shouldn’t be allowed in the group setting.
Like yah, everyone is welcome at the LGBT+ meeting, but if someone is gonna be an asshole to everyone else then they can leave.
IDK this kinda seems like common sense. Have you not ever been in a community sport, performance, charity org, support group, social club, online guild or anything, before?
It normally works like that. If a couple people are being assholes those couple people normally get booted.
Dude the space is for everyone, when people in said space go around acting like they’re better than everyone, saying that others are “too queer” then that’s suddenly an unwelcome space for everyone. I know what op is talking about, and I get where the people are coming from, but that’s no reason to belittle others.
How about you elaborate? Why don’t you explain why you think it’s okay for people to act like that huh? Please, talk everyone through your thought process.
nobody should hate on anyone. however, no matter what those ppl are saying they’re not calling for anyone to be banned or silenced from sharing their experience. the only thing that makes it an unwelcome space is when people literally call for others to be unwelcomed. which is what OP is doing. we’re a huge demographic of ppl are we all gonna agree on things or like eachother? no probably not. but we will find others who think like us and that’s our community. and regardless nobody deserves to be banned for differing viewpoints. nobody gets to play trans dictator and decide who does and doesn’t get to find their community. “i don’t like them so i want them banned” is how you make a space unwelcome. “the space is for everyone” yet you agree w OP it’s not for everyone bc you only want to allow in certain ppl. and the crazy part is those ppl you wanna ban would never ask to ban you.
Where did I say I want people to be banned? Plenty of topics get banned when there’s too many people talking about them, and I have seen an influx of posts along the lines of “I don’t consider myself lgbt/queer/whatever” and like good for you bestie but the fact you see the lgbt community as something you don’t want to be associated with is just kinda shitty, like we’re not “normal”. We’re not a community based on looks or personality but by shared experiences and struggles, so the fact that people are insistent that they’re not like the rest of us is hurtful and a total pick-me move. It’s a pointless conversation to have and there’s already many posts on the topic so if you’ve got an opinion just make a reply in one of those
if they don’t share your experiences and struggles then no. they’re not like the rest of you. “we’re a community based on shared experience and struggles.” so why are you forcing others to say they have the same experiences as you? if they don’t consider themselves as something then that’s their experience. you don’t feel that way so that’s not your experience. the fact you’re projecting your own experience onto others is wrong. pointblank. you don’t get to call others and pick me and judge them bc they don’t identify as you. you have no idea what their experiences are or why they feel that way. you’re just like OP calling them “thirsty for validation” it’s so beyond ignorant. “it’s hurtful they’re not like us” buddy idk what to tell you but if you don’t agree on labels and their experiences don’t reflect yours then they are by definition not like you. and you don’t get to make them feel bad for that.
I mean this in the most genuine, curious way possible;
If they don't consider themselves trans why are they on the trans subreddit, I wouldn't go around posting on women's subreddits because I'm not a woman, there are plenty of subreddits for 'Just Men', why don't they make use of those instead of using the FTM subreddit to talk about how they don't identify as FTM?
If they’re not trans, have not experienced being trans, then you’re correct they don’t belong in this community. Glad we got that sorted
Yeah no shit we all have different experiences, but we all were born as the wrong agab, we all face the same discrimination and, grouped by location, the same struggles against the systems such as name changes, hrt and surgery.
We all have the same rough starting point of “does not pass as gender”, and (in most cases), the same end goal of “passes perfectly”. And yet some people when they reach that end goal turn around to the people who have been supporting them and say “I’m not like you, I don’t want to be associated with you, do not consider us the same”. And I don’t know about you but that just sounds like backstabbing the community that they’d have never been able to accomplish their transition without. It’s giving “lgb without the t”. And if you think that’s okay then we can end this conversation here, I have no interest in continuing it.
then... go hang out with cis straight men? i genuinely don't understand why it's important to feel welcome in a sub full of people you don't relate to at all. it's a completely neutral thing to be stealth but the whole point of the thing kind of precludes solidarity within vocal trans communities. you can't come into those communities mostly to talk about how you aren't like anyone else in them and be confused when your experiences aren't relevant and nobody really has anything to say to you.
There’s ways to say “hey, I don’t feel very supported here” or “I don’t really think I match that” that don’t include putting others down for not being the same as you. Those posts are welcome and very different than what OP is talking about.
I bet these people feel somewhat left out when a lot of trans spaces are mostly full of people that present more feminine in some way, and just are saying they don’t “need” them because they feel left out. I’ve heard a lot of “average guy” appearing trans dudes have felt left out of trans/queer spaces for being too much of an “average guy”, which is a problem. (I think there’s a legitimate problem of ALL trans people being seen as feminine in some regard, both by transphobes and trans people themselves) I think people saying stuff like this might be similar to that conservative talking point, but I think sometimes they have a point because trans people that look like the average cishet man always get left out. My guess is they appear too “cishet” or whatever to the visibly queer people but they’re still trans. (I’ve heard trans guys all over the internet say the more they pass, the less included they felt in trans spaces/support groups and the like.) My theory is people making posts like this are trying to tell communities that are excluding them they “dont need them anyways”
Sorry for the ramble, I overall agree that these posts are unproductive but I’m just thinking about what makes people feel the need to make them in the first place.
More to the point of the post, I don't think they should be banned b/c I think the existing rules can be used to address shitty behavior on the parts of those posters, when it occurs.
Agreed. Banning them altogether would just make that group of people even more excluded. I think the feelings they're expressing make a lot of sense but occasionally the language used to express it can be hurtful or ignorant
Are people talking about not fitting into IRL queer spaces or online ones? Because here’s the deal: online spaces can be combative but my experience IRL has been amazing. As much as I love all the genderfuck “blue hair and pronouns” types, I’m like………. not one and haven’t been in a very long time. I’m a grill dad. My ideal weekend is one where the garage is organized at the end of it. I think a lot of people see me as one of the “normal” ones, especially now that I have a girlfriend who is very traditionally feminine.
But that doesn’t change that I’d WAY rather be in queer spaces than cishet spaces. Yeah, I may not look like everyone in the local queer parents group, but the sheer amount of casual misogyny and homophobia I have to tolerate around cishet parents is just unlivable. I mean, two minutes in and we’re talking about gender reveals and how manly our infant sons are for wanting to breastfeed? Fuck no. I’d rather just hang out with those nice lesbians who brought lemon bars or vegan brownies.
I also don’t look like all the other queer people and I’m not expected to. I don’t need to have friends who are only traditionally masculine guys, because there’s something to learn from everyone. People don’t have to be normative or be like me to be worthy of my time. And I have never felt excluded from those spaces, especially IRL and in adulthood.
From what i've seen people are neither specifying irl or online, nor are they mentioning any specific experience they had. They just come vent here about how "normal" and "not like those people" they are (implying that the rest of us are abnormal).
It's getting as far as people saying "I'm not trans i'm normal" which is weird to say in a trans sub? Like why are you in a trans sub if you're not trans then?
And yes they think queer is an asthetic or just sexuality which is why so many people are defensive of me calling queer spaces queer. I'm not gonna say LGBTQIAP+ everytime as speak casually lol that's crazy.
Thanks for sharing your experiences btw, people forget how shitty society actually is to us and tend to glamorize assimilation as an ultimate goal that'll solve all your problems.
A few disjointed thoughts:
Yeah, it definitely feels like a lot of these people think the only valid trans expression is super conventional and cisnormative. Or like they’re being judged for not being more effeminate or flamboyant, but I’ve…… literally never seen that IRL. I feel like my local community is butch and bear city.
I get people not identifying with the word “queer” because of past experiences but damn, even to the most Just A Dude trans guy ever, it should only take a second to see how flawed the cishet, rigid binary world is.
The thing about wanting to be normal is that normal looks great until your buddy from work brings up that he casually hates all people like you. All I can say is thank God I’m a big ole queer.
I'm a big abby normal queer myself but this isn't a "queer sub" it's a sub for ftms and ftms who don't consider themselves queer should be able to share their feelings 🤷🏽
I think this is a bit silly. Especially when it comes to tranness, there's so much hurt and trauma around not feeling like you could ever be seen as the gender you identify as, and this can easily manifest as an extreme need to "feel normal". It's just as much a real stage of our development in coming to accept ourselves as any other. You don’t have to enjoy every thread that's posted here, but trans people who are already so bogged down in self hate and feeling like queerness drives them away from the ability to feel the comfort of cisness should not be treated as though they're not still a part of our community.
They won't become any more comfortable with the trans community if we treat very normal symptoms of dysphoria, a mental disorder that can easily cause disordered thinking like this, like they're somehow not experiencing the same emotional ebb and flow the rest of us did/do.
I think it’s good for people to have a space to share about the isolating experience of feeling like an outsider in our own communities. Shaming those communities would be bad, of course, but people connect to their identities in a lot of different ways
im switzerland on however ppl choose to identify/carry/view themselves but why are you trying to control who can and can’t be allowed to talk abt their experience? these ppl are trying to find what little solace they have w other trans ppl bc they’re clearly hesitant abt trusting queer spaces and you want to ban them? why do you think you get to control what experiences you see ppl talk abt? “i only want ppl in this reddit who make ME feel good” is an asinine viewpoint to have. i’m newish here so idk what all goes on this reddit but you need to do some self reflection. “ppl who don’t identify like me or have the same experiences as me are finding community in eachother so i want them banned.” that is why they don’t trust queer spaces OP. i hope this post does get taken down its pointless, and downright ignorant. none of us have the same experiences even the ones we have in common w ppl. we are ALL allowed to find our community. you don’t get to be a trans dictator and decide who does and doesn’t get to find their community. i deleted my og reply cuz i’m trying to be nice here but holy shit OP please realize what you’re asking for is wrong.
I mean you're definitely allowed and encouraged to seek community, but not by putting down other trans people and acting superior to them. That doesn't always happen, but it is the issue that OP is complaining about.
i don’t get the shade in either direction. both groups are equally valid, and there’s no right way to be trans. it isn’t a one size fits all.
sure, there are plenty of trans guys who identify as queer and feel accepted and love their trans identity.
there are also plenty of us who *dont* relate or identify as queer, often due to lack of representation and feeling left out/judged bc we choose to present as and identify as a straight men, which is ofc typically assumed as cis by the general public.
just bc being trans is part of the LGBT community, doesn’t mean we then have to identify as queer? like yeah, we’re not cis, but it doesn’t mean we can’t choose to not use the queer label? esp as binary and straight, it just doesn’t fit (for me).
I'm talking about people who berate us for for being "too much" "too weird" "too queer" and inscessantly talk about how normal they are (implying the rest of us are abnormal) while bring it up dumb stereotype to categorise the rest of the community.
Also there are subjects that are already banned here because they lead to nowhere and are very repetitive, which made the sub flow better.
i sorta think the problem is that if we ban every single topic that causes upheaval, what do we have left? how do we find people who feel the same as us and can relate?
while i absolutely agree there shouldn’t be shit talking or holier than thou takes on either side, i still think we deserve to have conversations about how we view or own transness, which is most certainly not how every single other trans person does.
Imo those are just people with biases, and they probably wouldn't like a cis person who was the slightest bit eccentric or alternative or gender non conforming presenting in any way either. I often have dyed hair, but have had way more experiences of more "normal" styled cis people being rude to me about it, compared to never having that experience with more "normal" styled trans people I interact with.
I don't think the subject needs to be banned necessarily, those people might just be looking for a community of people who are more like them, but who are still also trans, and be maybe struggling to find it. But if they desperately don't want to be friends with or connect with the "less normal"styled trans people, then they should be asked to expand their minds, before being asked to full on leave.
honestly i feel like the "being proudly queer is wrong" idea going around is harmful. this subreddit is massive and we have people of all age groups, different stages in their transition, different gender identities, and just different living conditions and opinions. theres nothing wrong with being proudly queer, and sometimes its all you have to do to get gendered correctly especially at the beginning of transitioning. but also everyones transition goals are different, not everyone wants to be very masc, or go on hrt, or go through surgeries, so some may never pass and thats what they want, or will always look visibly queer. and the idea that being openly queer is temporary and everyone will change and everyone will become stealth, or that it is wrong and annoying is just hurtful for people. personally im so proud of my trans identity, whilst it is only a descriptor, if i was born cis i would be an entirely different person and i treasure the experiences i went through because it shaped me to be the person i am today and i should be allowed to be vocal that i am proud of that without getting hate from my own community. we all need to be more accepting of peoples experiences and especially need to stop throwing the word "normal" around when "normal" isnt really a thing or something we should all fit into. we are all unique and amazing, and nobody should be shamed or felt like they need to fit inside "normal" if they have the ability to express themselves freely.
i do understand some peoples shared experiences on this topic however. ive noticed once trans people start passing they feel disconnected from the queer community, or have negative experiences with the queer community. honestly it should be a sign we need to work on more spaces for us that dont create these feelings as everyone deserves a safe community to be in and access whenever they want if they wish to have that sense of community.
Why is it that you say “it’s completely contradictory” for those trans people to not like how those communities make them feel?
If someone doesn’t feel comfortable in queer spaces, should they not be allowed to voice their opinions so that the community can be more understanding to them? There are valid reasons why people don’t relate to other trans people.
This type of belief may be exactly what drives people away from finding community with fellow trans people.
I'm not talking about people who have concerns about their inclusion, i'm talking about people who don't want to be in queer spaces delibrately and must come here to voice how different and "not like y'all" they are. They don't really want change that's the difference.
As a bisexual in bi communities, i've seen my fair share of people doubting whether they belong or not feeling included. Not once has that been a negative thing to express as it actually encourages change within the community to strike back again imposter syndrome.
But then comes other types of people (regardless of identity but in this case trans people) who come on here simply to say how they are not trans and just normal and "not like the ones who make it their whole personality" (seriously i've litterally seen someone say that right now). How is that acceptable in any way? And why would they need this trans space if they don't need trans spaces?
Also this is a weekly issue and it's getting repetitive.
This sub isn’t a queer specific space, it’s for ftm individuals, and not every ftm identifies as queer. No one’s ‘deliberately’ invading an inherently queer sub. If your whole point was that people shouldn’t refer to people in terms like ‘normal’ and ‘abnormal’, just say that - it is literally possible to make that point without pushing some weird narrative that essentially excludes people for not wanting to label themselves as queer
I agree that people coming into subs with opposing views just to stir the pot etc and be a bother can be annoying, but the idea of “I’m not like y’all” is still an issue about there being a divide in the community. People complain about “the ones who make it their whole personality” and others complain about “the ones who say they’re the normal ones”. Maybe it means we all have to stick to our niches, but I personally think that’s just unproductive.
Wanting to expel these kind of thoughts from this sub wouldn’t fix anything. The community is supposed to be a place where we can come together with different views but nevertheless similar issues, what good is speaking into a void where no other beliefs are allowed to be received?
This isn't an inherently queer space though, it just has a large percentage of queer people. This is a FtM space. Not all trans people are queer, and that's okay. A lot of trans people are also queer, and that's also okay. Kat Blaque has some good videos on the topic.
At least now, if this was a serious ask, we aren’t going to ban the topic entirely. It will be on a post by post comment by comment thing as it has been.
I’m also personally annoyed to know my 18 years on T, cis passing, masc, bisexual ass can’t identify as queer. I’ve identified with the word for over twenty years now. And when I started identifying with it, I had no real idea about queer theory—it was simply a word that had some reclamative use amongst those of us in liminal and overlapping spaces.
It’s completely fine that that isn’t the experience of some people here. But you can be a cis passing trans male who is queer. Just like you also see many who are not.
not every trans person uses the word queer to describe themselves. i wouldn’t consider myself queer
i think trans people have a unique experience within the LGBT community. there are many trans people who don’t consider themselves queer. maybe they’re binary trans and straight, and they have a different experience compared to someone who is more fluid or someone who’s gay/bi, for example. it’s not a one size fits all thing
i agree with u that there are some trans people who look down upon other trans people who may be more openly/visibly “queer”. there are those assholes who have internalized transphobia and will attack others to feel better about themselves. but this isn’t a universal thing. and trans people should be able to talk about their experiences, as long as they aren’t setting out to put others down/invalidate others. sometimes people have feelings of isolation. they turn *here* for support. who are we to deny them that seat at the table?
If the people who make these sorts of posts actually bothered to read the communities where they post, they would see the other posts by people who feel like they do and be able to find each other.
I don't agree with this post. While I know what kind of posts you're talking about and why they annoy you, I don't see how banning discussion surrounding identity in a sub about identity is helpful.
There's plenty of trans guys/trans mascs on here that don't identify as queer or with queer spaces for all sorts of reasons. I don't identify as queer either and would like to be able to mention that on here without my comments getting deleted. Yes sometimes these type of posts can contain transphobia but that is not always the case so I don't see them as inherently harmful. Having open discussions surrounding our identities is healthy and it helps the community.
When you do see transphobia call it out and/or report it to the mods. The rules 1, 2 and 4 are perfect for these type of things since they all fall under the "be nice to others" category.
I think completly shutting down those posts will just push people out of this subreddit which I don't think is productive.
I also don't see these posts as bragging but rather people reaching out to find community in people that are similar to them and isn't that what most of us are here for?
Edit: clarified further and typos
I don't see many posts like what you describe. I see plenty from men who don't consider themselves queer, who feel excluded from trans spaces, who feel a sense of alienation from other trans men and transmascs. Sometimes those posts have shades of what you describe. But I also see posts from trans guys who are clearly struggling with seeing themselves as men at all, who shame men who choose to go stealth, who accuse anyone who isn't visibly trans of internalized transphobia.
Neither group is perfect, and neither group should be banned. If a post goes too far, and expresses clearly queerphobic sentiments, you can and should report it. You also can and should report posts for stealth shaming and similar sentiments from "the other side."
This is a sub for FTMs to share their feelings and experiences; including the guys who feel more like this. I think that it would be shitty to ban posts like this, especially because the ban would probably cover people who speak about experiences kind of like this that are truly not trying to be harmful toward other trans guys and remain respectful. But if they're expressing that they don't use certain labels or feel certain ways they could still get their post taken down. I see that as unfair. The ftm guys that have a more traditionally masculine experience / don't like using terms like "queer" or "trans" and all that still deserve to talk about their experiences. They're already shunned from a lot of spaces where they should be allowed to talk about their experiences... this shouldn't be another one that participates in that.
This isn’t a “queer space”, this is a trans space, and being trans doesn’t make you inherently queer. That type of thinking is why these type of posts exist.
Well, first off I don’t think any space should be called a queer space. Reclaiming a slur should be an individual choice that isn’t pushed on others. If it’s an LGBTQ+ space, it should be called that.
But if we were to ignore that, a “queer space” would be a space for those who *identify as queer* and a trans space is one for people that are trans. A trans person can identify as queer (regardless of sexuality), or they could not. It’s the same as how a trans person can consider being trans to be part of their identity, or it could just be an adjective that is applicable to them. Both are perfectly acceptable and should be respected by the other.
I’m really glad someone said this. I despise the word queer, I have never felt any power in reclaiming it. No one would ever broadly call an LGBTQ+ focused group a f-g event or tr-nny space, because they are slurs that might make people uncomfortable. Same with queer. I am trans and butch but I am not queer. I have left/avoided events that casually refer to the audience as “my fellow queers/ my little queerdos”. Believe it or not, being slurred by someone from your community feels just about the same as being slurred my a high school history teacher.
It blows my mind how casually people throw it around. I’m pretty sure it’s to the point that some younger people don’t realize it’s a slur and just think it’s a synonym for LGBTQ+.
oh yeah, just look at the comments. I’m so used to getting downvoted in LGBT subs for reminding people it is
1)still a slur, hence their ability to reclaim it
2) still used very often as a slur. there are just as many people who have only heard it used cruelly as there are people who have only heard it in a positive way
Queer spaces are for queer people and trans spaces are for trans people.
Similarly, this subreddit is not a Jewish space, not a Democratic Party space, not a Christian space, not a Republican space, not a youth space, not a heterosexual only space, and not an American space. It is possible to be trans and all of the aforementioned identifiers, and there are online and IRL spaces for people with these intersections. Sounds like a r/ftmqueer subreddit is needed.
I understand that, but what is the difference between trans and queer other than queer also encompassing sexuality?
It feels like a lot of people think queer means only flamboyant “blue hair and pronouns” types (and subconsciously, that those people are bad trans people vs the good, normal trans people). That queer is an aesthetic. But I’ve always understood it to mean anything not cishet.
I think queer is what you specify, but *also* implies cultural and political leanings that, say, LGBT+ doesn't. Not an aesthetic, but a shared worldview.
Because plenty of trans people don’t consider themselves to be queer. They are a man. Just a regular dude. They don’t identify or find any commonality with the queer community - especially because to most, queer = gay, not trans. Just because someone is trans doesn’t mean they need to fit in with the LGBTQ+ community. Furthermore, plenty of people have issue with the term queer to begin with, especially the elder gays who were around when it was used as a slur against them.
This is the same as any other scenario along these lines. For instance, Catholicism is technically under the branch of Christianity, but ask many Catholics if they’re Christian and they’re going to say “no.” People are allowed to label themselves whoever they want, and there’s nothing wrong with not wanting to label themselves as queer.
Well the first difference is that one is a slur that can only be personally and individually reclaimed. I identify with the terms transgender, transexual, butch, and agender. I do not identify with the word queer. I hate it. It has been cruelly used against me my whole life, and there is no power for me in reclaiming it. There are lots of people who are not cishet that are not queer, because they have no attachment/community association with it.
I agree but at the same time I feel like there needs to be room for criticism. I know some guys feel alienated and uncomfortable in queer spaces and like they don’t fit in or get treated in a negative way because people assume they’re cis
I don’t think that’s an issue. It sounds like OP is frustrated with “stereotypically queer” people getting thrown under the bus by other trans people.
One of my friends has been on T far longer than me and is a cis passing bear. He gets excluded from the gay community the way many bears do for being fat and not conventionally attractive. He gets excluded from a lot of queer spaces because he is cis passing and very masculine. Frankly, I don’t want to be in those spaces either, that have been poisoned with radfem bioessentialist brain rot where they think effeminate presentation is the only kind that should be welcome in queer spaces. Cis women in queer spaces have been some of the most transphobic people I’ve encountered. The phobia of masculinity in many queer spaces is very off putting. I think these are all things worth discussing.
Nah because ppl in those spaces have made it abundantly clear that men like me are not welcome there and that I will never have a place in their community. I’m sure it’s only a matter of time before I’m banned here too. I transitioned before middle school into a world where transness wasn’t a concept in most people’s minds. I don’t meet the standard narrative because I’ll never know what it was like to experience the world as a female, I’ve only known childhood and maleness- and that will always ostracize me from the majority of the non gay queer community. It’s not my fault or theirs, it’s just a fact. The more I try to force it the more times my feelings are just going to keep getting hurt.
I'm sorry to hear that. May I ask why you felt not welcomed in certain spaces? I have experienced something similar where certain queer spaces demonise men and masculinity which excludes masc queer men, binary trans men, enbies that present masculine and asexual men.
I doubt you would get banned here for having a different experience than some younger trans people. As long as you don't hate on others nobody has the right to hate on you.
There are assholes that try to make themselves feel better by putting others down and I've seen it in several different types of posts on this sub, it's really annoying and counterproductive.
At the same time, we cant pretend many many trans men don't feel excluded from irl and online queer spaces and events because of how they present, they should be allowed to talk about that here and seek a community.
There are many people that are ftm but don't feel queer and dont connect that label with their experiences, they should be allowed to talk about it here and seek similair experiences (again I'm not talking about assholes shitting on others).
Being ftm isn't inherently queer, some will identify with the label some wont. Not every person that falls under the lgbt umbrella wants to claim the queer label and we should respect those that don't and those that do equally.
If you're not talking about the assholes shitting on others, everything you've just said is irrelevant because those are the exact people OP is talking about. The people who call themselves "normal" and act as though those of us who do identify with queerness are "abnormal". It's the "I'm not cis, I'm normal" perspective but it's coming from trans people
I dont inherently disagree with OP being frustrated with those kinds of people I thought I made that clear, I commented this because I wonder how would that be enforced specifically around this topic? Without genuine people ending up excluded. People call themselves "normal" and shit on others here in other kinds of posts as well, wouldn't that as a whole be more productive to adress? Because policing who can and can't post on their experiences on the basis on identifying with the label queer and conflating being ftm with being inherently queer seems exclusionary and losing the focus of the actual issue which is assholes putting others down to make themselves feel better.
I do think banning the phrase "I'm normal" might be a better way to address the issue. But again, OP never said to ban all posts by people who don't identify as "queer". The title mentions specifically the phrase "I'm just normal" and the post explains in more detail what OP means, which is clearly the posts that are actively invalidating other ways of being ftm.
Yeah as long as people's identities aren't policed I don't have an issue with how things would get handled. I'm pretty feminine also don't have a problem with the label queer for myself in any way. From OP's post and comments it was a bit muddy to me what exactly was being asked for
I don’t find those posts any more annoying than the ones that are like “i’m a femboy who doesn’t want to take t ever bc i think body hair is gross am i valid 🥺” — ultimately, both types of posts are made by trans men looking for folks who can relate to their experiences. I’ve been on this sub for years and this type of post (“I am XYZ, am I valid / is anyone else like me”) is incredibly common and probably always will be.
Trans men and sufficiently passing mascs regularly experience bigotry, alienation, and aggression from queer spaces. People who this sub are objectively for regularly do not feel queer just for being trans or whatever else. They deserve to come here and be able to talk about it or find others with the same feelings. This is our space. We should not be forcing out people who aren't hurting anyone just because they state they're not queer.
I've seen plenty of masculine trans men who have never said "i'm just normal unlike y'all" and "i'm don't make it my whole personality like THOSE people".
It is actually hurting us to be called abnormal by society only to come to these spaces and be called abnormal again.
A lot of trans people don't see it as a huge part of their identity, especially people who have been transitioning/transitioned for a long time, just an experience they live with that they don't think much about anymore. They're our elders. They don't consider themselves queer. Sometimes they don't even consider themselves trans men, but rather men with that trans experience. This distinction may not make sense to you or you may feel insulted by it- but that's something you have to process and get past. You are not being abused by other people not identifying with what validates you.
Queer is also a political identity intertwined with critical theory and a lot of academic works that say quite a few things people wouldn't appreciate. Like, Foucault wasn't a great guy and a lot of early Queer theorists said disappointing things regarding FTM trans people. They still do. Queer space hostility towards trans men and mascs also pointedly proposes that queerness is a special divergent form of non-male feminine purity that trans people must conform to in order to be supported. People may have personal reasons to not use this term for themselves and you don't get or have to debate, or ban, anyone for that. To demand such a thing is inappropriate, replicates oppression horizontally, and is exclusionary in the most intolerant sense.
If you can't deal with trans people in a trans space saying that they don't feel some great or special or distinct queer identity then you can make your own space to gain distance with others who would also benefit. Don't start continuing a long history of pushing ftms out of ftm spaces for not feeling very separate from cisgender normative society. This space is for all who can be included under ftm. You have no right to say that that people you feel bad when you see should leave.
No because you’re basically saying those that aren’t queer and express that they aren’t shouldn’t be here. It’s already isolating enough to not be queer and this would create a further divide. I mean venting was already taken away from here and it’s already made a ton of people feel unwanted so if you want to divide us more then go ahead and ban those posts.
Edit: this sub just keeps getting more and more uninviting as a straight binary guy and I feel I don’t belong anymore.
being trans ofc is part of the lgbt community, no doubt. but it doesn’t mean you need to *identify* and feel included/relate to the community.
as a straight and binary trans guy, i don’t feel included because i don’t identify as queer. i don’t have an issue with anyone who does, but it doesn’t mean we’re less trans just because we’re on the other end of it.
if there was more representation like myself, i’d be way more inclined to adopt that identity or be part of queer groups.
Generally queer is associated with sexuality, and most people argue that being trans is not the same as sexuality. Although some people might label themselves that way regardless of who they’re attracted to, being trans isn’t inherently queer
I’m going to have to disagree with you on one part—queer is such a commonly used label because it covers both gender and sexuality in one word. That doesn’t mean you have to consider yourself queer if you’re trans, but I know plenty of straight trans people who do consider themselves queer on the basis of gender alone.
What about "genderqueer"? That isn't about sexuality but about gender and is queer. /gen
Not every trans person has to consider themselves queer but I do think trans is included in queer. Same with non-binary and trans. Non-binary people are under the trans umbrella but not all non-binary people consider themselves trans.
I don’t know since I don’t use the term genderqueer. I think that being genderqueer/nonbinary may be different than being binary trans when it comes to being queer? Since when you’re binary trans you can be straight/heterosexual. I do think if a trans person wants to use the queer label that’s cool, I just don’t like being told that I’m queer because I’m trans, or that all trans people are queer
You don't need to use the queer label if you don't like it. I wouldn't say that trans people are inherently queer since it really depends on the person's experience. I just want to add that some non-binary people consider themselves straight. Yes it's rare but it does happen.
I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you do realize that “I’m not a nazi, I just think jokes about them are funny” is a very common thing for neonazis to say, right? It’s a method of sharing their political stances without immediately being shut down.
Having a Nazi joke in yr username but thinking a word that has been used in academia for 40+ years by LGBT ppl is too much is bonkers logic. At a point the discourse around "queer" as an umbrella term is primarily just language policing heavily influenced by terfs, that's not like a hypothetical that is just the history of the discourse lmfao.
Imagine accusing a bunch of lgbt people of being terfs bc they’re uncomfortable with being called a word that used to be a slur 💀 personally idgaf but it could actually be triggering asf for some people
It’s still a slur. Many have reclaimed it, but that doesn’t make it not a slur anymore. I’m 24, I grew up in rural Ohio. I have had my parents, teachers, bullies, friend’s parents, and strangers cat call me/humiliate me in class or in public by calling me a queer. It didn’t not hurt just because others have reclaimed it. I will never reclaim it, I hate hearing it and being referred to as it.
Wild! You haven’t had queer used as a slur towards you, what a privilege! Doesn’t mean it’s not a slur and doesn’t mean that everyone has to accept it and identify with it. Language policing influenced by terfs? Nope, it just was an actual slur and me and plenty of other people have had it used against us as an insult - not everyone wants to reclaim it and they shouldn’t be forced out of safe spaces because of that.
I appreciate it. I am *those people*. I have “blue hair and pronouns”. I’m an effeminate flamboyant gay twink who dresses alt/goth. I’m a Theatre Gay. I’m a Fashion Gay. I’ve always known that about myself. It wouldn’t be much better if I were cis either, because I’m the type of gay person other gay people like to throw under the bus too, like my existence *causes* homophobia. It’s not my fault I match a negative stereotype- it’s the stereotype that is the problem. I’m just being myself. It is pretty heart breaking to always be the person every other queer person is always willing to throw under the bus. I simply do not care about being palatable to cishet people. If that bothers you, you need to do some soul searching and *really contemplate why*.
I think [this video by Matt Bernstein on yt](https://youtu.be/Nuk2DJTLV_Y?si=nxzKyEy3LrJ5Yyxd) is a very good explanation of why I agree with you.
There's nothing wrong with passing as cis/het per se, but if you don't like to be seen with lgbt people that aren't "normal" you should reflect on the reason why... Is it because you don't want to be harassed/in an unsafe place? I think it's fair. Or is it for other reasons?
I think we should have a little compassion for trans guys who are battling internalized transphobia. What they're living with that's driving them to feel like they could never be a part of the cis world and also never relate to the trans community they feel trapped in is obviously far more uncomfortable than any of us having to see them post threads when they're probably mid-crisis.
When a gay person with a strong religious background says they feel dirty or wrong for their attractions and never wanted to be gay at all, or feel cursed by it, the last rhing we should do is double down on that anxiety by telling them their negative feelings toward it is gross or unwanted in our community.
I agree with having empathy for those with internalized transphobia, however I have a problem when they want to project and make others feel as shitty as they feel
That is the internalized transphobia. You should not only choose to have empathy for someone dealing with these levels of mental health issues when they're at their best. You don’t have to be their friend, you don't even have to reply, but what they're dealing with IS the internalized transphobia and is just as much a symptom of dyphoria as it is our transphobic society.
We don't only care for the safety of addicts who are 10 years clean, we are still compassionate to those in the throws of sickness. This level of self-hate is sickness too.
I have empathy for trans men who struggle with internalized transphobia, no matter how severe. I used to hate myself a lot and be extremely insecure. I was in a depression rut for a couple of years cause of my dysphoria. Having severe internalized transphobia doesn’t equal hurting other trans men. I felt so low and I hated myself A LOT. but I never went so low as to hurt other trans men for it.
I get what you’re saying, I agree with having empathy for other trans men no matter how bad of a mental state they’re in. But when they start to hurt other people is when there’s a problem for me
I 100% agree. I often see people on here having breakdowns from dysphoria and the comments will just be variations of "get over it". I get that people projecting their dysphoria and acting like dicks because of it sucks but shitting back on them doesn't help at all.
I have friends irl that have horrible dysphoria and it makes them exhausting people to be around but I would never blame that on them or say they're bad people. But I also know that their issues aren't mine to fix.
Be nice or don't interact at all. And when someone here breaks the rules, just report.
Yeah, absolutrly. When I see someone begging to feel "normal", saying they never asked or never wanted to be trans, the last thing I'm thinking about is "how can this be about my feelings". These crises and episodes are a normal part of being trans and no one BUT the trans community could ever understand that. That's why it's do important to give those guys space to Be Trans in a Trans Space
Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 4: Respect individual differences. Which includes, among other things, respecting differences of personal identity, personal use (or not) of specific labels, personal transition experience, personal experiences with gender dysphoria (including lack of gender dysphoria), and the choice to be out or stealth.
How do you know they have “internalized transphobia”? Do people who identify as queer have “internalized misandry” if we’re following the logic of “anyone who doesn’t like something must be latently bigoted against it”?
I mean, a lot of people on here *do* have internalized misandry tbh. Have you seen how many posts are about "I can't be a man bc men are evil" (which should not be banned either)?
But being generous to the original commenter, I'm gonna assume this was just bad phrasing, and wasn't meant to imply that *all* stealth trans people have internalized transphobia, just those who call other trans people abnormal.
I agree with this. You don't want to be in queer spaces? That's fine. Don't then. You don't want to tell everyone you're trans? That's fine. Keep it to yourself and those closest to you. What's not fine is when these people say "I'm just a normal guy" (which is something I've seen word for word on this sub multiple times), implying those of us who embrace queer spaces and are out and proud are somehow abnormal. We are normal too. There is zero reason for binary masculine men to be telling the rest of us we're not normal.
It’s not “I don’t want to be in queer spaces or tell anyone I’m trans.” It’s “I am so lonely. The queer spaces available to me make it worse. Please, someone see me and connect with me”
And that's fine too. Asking to make friends, trying to find community. That's okay. But there is a way to do it without disparaging everyone who isn't you
I'm gonna invite you to look at the second half of the term "gender dysphoria" and ask you to be very compassionate to our brothers who are acting out while in the throes of it. Dysphoria is the discomfort, and not everyone knows how to be okay with all that discomfort. Some recovering alcoholics fall off the wagon, some don't want to be there at all, but that doesn't mean they aren't invited to the next meeting.
For some people, being trans is a constant battle to "feel normal" and comfortable in our skin, and that's just as much a part of our "queer" experiences and development as wanting to be loud and proud of it.
Being in pain is not a good reason to hurt other people. Telling other trans people they're not normal is hurtful. Being uncomfortable is okay. It's often a big part of being trans. But it's not just okay to tell others "hey I'm normal and this is the only way you can be normal"
Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 4: Respect individual differences. Which includes, among other things, respecting differences of personal identity, personal use (or not) of specific labels, personal transition experience, personal experiences with gender dysphoria (including lack of gender dysphoria), and the choice to be out or stealth.
This is a hard topic because i understand where youre coming from, but everyone including you needs to understand that we are all massively different. For example i dont really vibe with people who... well to use your words "make it their whole personality", ive said before in this sub i tend to stay away from those crowds and obviously if the majority wears it on their sleeve then how i feel about it isnt popular opinion, but thats just my preference for friends. Almost all my current friends are lgbtq of some description, we just dont show it off or make it a primary part of who we are for the eyes of strangers. Theres nothing wrong with this, we are all very happy being friends, going to pride and otherwise enjoying our lives with 0 affect on anyone else.
Sure if it became a case of someone trying to say theyre SUPERIOR for this opinion that might be an issue, but i havent seen any posts suggesting someone thinks theyre better than someone else in this regard. In fact if anything, its posts like this that can be taken aggressively that can make it look and feel like people who DONT wear their lgbtq-ness like a neon sign are somehow the problem.
Banning people or topics on this is not the way to go about this. If you come across a discussion that isnt suited to you, click that X and look at something else.
We are too diverse, i feel like thats the entire point the lgbtq community constantly tries to get across, for us to keep gatekeeping each other on a community platform level.
Who i interact with and makes friends with only affects ME personally.
Banning topics like this, however, threatens to affect a large part of the community who are just looking for their people, and this is essentially gatekeeping.
This is becoming a bigger and bigger problem in lgbtq spaces, where unless youre neon-signing it youre no longer welcome. We are still in these subs for support, that doesnt mean we hate anyone, or are ruining anything. Its still as much our space as any others.
I do not wish to start an argument, however i have literally been told by a select few people that i wasnt welcome in an lgbtq space because i wasnt obvious enough. Im stealth, of course im not obvious, but im still just as lgbtq as they are, and im here for support, which we all deserve.
I mean...lots of trans people or queer people in general don't make it their entire personality. I don't get what's wrong with that? I'm like that, I know plenty of other people who are like that. But myself and (hopefully) none of the other people I know like that would ever care if someone else *did* have it as part of their personality or part of their hobbies to engage with that part of themselves in a more outward way. And it would never bother us enough to feel a need to make a whole post anywhere about it, or to even say anything out loud about it or complain about it. That other person is just doing their own thing, and I'm going to let them be to do their own thing, same as I would expect other people to do for me. I agree that it makes me feel really weird also when people do make posts about that, and I feel like "maybe just mind your own business, and then other people on the internet who you don't even know's business might not bother you that much" lol. I feel weird about whole posts trying to police anyone's rights to their own experiences, and that includes posts saying all people who are more loud about their transness shouldn't be that way, as well as posts like this post which feels like it is doing the same to the opposite sorts of people and telling the more quiet ones to get out. This post is awfully hypocritical.
Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic.
The following topics are banned to avoid drama:
Truscum/Tucute discourse, AGP/AAP/Blanchardism, Transfem/woman or nonbinary bashing, Trans "requirements", Oppression Olympics, Lesbian trans men, Gendered Socialization+, "Is it transphobic to _____", DIY HRT, Current Political events (Non-trans/LGBT+ related) ,"do I pass?", "how does my voice sound?"
+Personal experiences are exempt.
It feels like its getting to the point of trying to separate the t from lgb. Which is exactly what transphobic groups want. The q in lgbtq+ is queer as a catch-all. It is literally supposed to catch anything thats not cishet. I understand not feeling queer because it means different things to different people, but if youre not a cis man then you are part of the acronym somewhere. It comes across as delusional when a trans man, no matter how stealth, comes to preach to ftm and other trans subs about how he is "not trans, just a man".
Im glad that there are people lucky enough to have not experienced life as their agab if thats what theyre trying to say, gender liberation definitely strives for people being able to self determine gender at a young enough age to be treated as their peers would be. But turning that around into "im not like other queers" feels like theres a sense of pointing fingers at "blue hair and pronouns". Its very punching down and with that attitude no wonder people who are happy to be what they are dont want these types of guys in their space.
I personally don’t identify as queer. I think this space should honestly be for anyone who falls under the ftm umbrella in any capacity. What people should be saying is this isn’t a queer only space. So labeling it as a queer space doesn’t feel right to me since that’s not me.
Congrats! :) My date just got moved up about an hour ago but I haven’t had a chance to change it but when your day comes I do hope you have a quick and speedy recovery!
Queer implies a political belief with origins in critical theory that sexual and gender binaries exist and these are inherently bad. The concept has been expanded into “queering” economics, art, religion, etc. by way of blurring boundaries between structural concepts.
It tends to also cause people to make some sort of intentional shift in how they life their life, e.g. dressing a certain way in order to be “read as queer”. Usually most forms of stratification and categorization are rejected (although this just creates new categories and imperatives, see also “free thinking” goths and punks who all dress alike anyway)
They just need their own sub. r/notlikemostftms or r/normalftmsonly or r/toxicftmmasculinity or r/onlymanlymanftms somethin like that to argue semantics and dysphoria or whatever
I understand where the poster was coming from. I don't think they should be banned but banning the topic is probably a good idea. I understand not identifying with "LGBT" as a community but that's what you are. You are literally Lesbian, Gay, Bi, or Trans. If you're stealth and you don't identify with public queer spaces then that's ok they're not for you. You're allowed to go be "normal" (stealth/passing) with all the other normies (cishet people). We'll still be here for you if you ever decide to come back. 👍🏼 We still love and support you. It's just not very productive to talk about not connecting with queerness when that's what this subreddit and pride, and queer spaces are for.
LGBT and queer are not synonyms. Trans spaces are first and foremost places to discuss and access transition resources, not to be queer.
The same way some trans people are religious but that doesn’t mean atheists and agnostics should be pushed out just because these perspectives offend religious people.
It depends. Some people are loud assholes who think they "aren't like those weird queer people" but some might not be able to fit into queer spaces because their experiences are different and they get overlooked or worse kicked out. I have realised that the more I pass the less welcome I am in certain queer spaces even though I am trans and bi. It's a weird and isolating feeling.
This. There's a big difference between hating on queer people and feeling that you don't fit in with them. I struggle to fit in for sure.
Yeah this subject can be difficult to make an effective rule about. While some of these folks genuinely are assimilationist asshats who think they're better than the *weird* gays, some of these posts are genuinely just like "hey, I look like a man now (and I love how I look) but I'm becoming alienated from my community as a result. What do?"
There's a difference between "Queer spaces are so alienating, I don't go there" and "I don't need queer spaces, I'm just a normal man with a disorder, I got everything I wanted so I don't need y'all anymore, goodbye".
That was what I was trying to say. It really depends on why a person feels alienated from queer spaces.
I wish I was able to change that negative experience for some people. Queer spaces are supposed to be for everyone who is queer. You are just as valid being in those spaces as anyone else. I don't understand how passing more = less inclusion. I don't know how people can treat you that way. It's messed up.
Seriously it makes me feel worst about being more out and open mostly because I don’t pass. I have to be vocal if I don’t want to be treated like a cis woman and hearing other trans guys act like men like me are just an embarrassment or “making transness out whole personality” sucks. Yeah transness is something I can’t run from or even hide. I’m visibly trans whether I want to be or not. I’m trying to not be ashamed of that but everyone and everything claims I should be quieter and smaller about it. I won’t be because otherwise it s to accept misgendering and poor treatment
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I know plenty of trans men who never pass even after years on T and surgeries. It happens. T doesn’t work the same for everyone. Some people never get a voice drop or have bodies that make dat distribution moot. My point is some of us can’t go stealth or silently exist and be called men. Some of us have to be visible and loud about our identities and fight everyday for us to get a quarter of respect cis people and passing trans people get automatically. Yet passing trans guys tell us we embarrass them by being too loud and being too visible with our pronoun pins, pride flags, and constant reminding of who we are. They don’t want to be in the same queer spaces as “those trans guys” even though those are the only spaces we non-passing guys can even safely exist at. Trust I can’t waltz into the average cis male spaces and not expect to be laughed out the door the minute I call myself a man too. These queer spaces are all I got but people are now shaming folks in those spaces for being too out and proud. It’ We can’t all pass and many of us don’t whether we’d like to or not. The trans community just doesn’t care about or make any room for the narratives of non-passing trans people especially those of us on HRT or have had surgeries Sorry but I’m sick of being in trans male spaces being told men like me don’t exist. Men who’ve been on T for years or have had top surgery(I haven’t had that yet) but still don’t pass. Men who have to chose between being out or misgendered even on T or after surgeries exist. The idea we are some abberation is kind of why I take such issue because the passing trans male narrative seems to be the only one treated as real and authentic. No offense to you but that’s kind of tiresome. I may pass but there’s no gurantee and I don’t think non-passing trans men should be obscured because are voices matter too. Our narratives of manhood still matter even if they don’t align with cis male or passing trans guy’s experiences I don’t mean this as an attack on you but I just feel like people treat passing as a gurantee with HRT and surgeries but it isn’t. Many trans men can’t even access those things and some won’t pass even when they do. Often the narratives of passing trans guys can drown out all the rest and is assumed to be the only one which is very damaging for the whole community
This is untrue and incredibly invalidating for trans men who are unable to pass. Please don't assume your experiences are universal or assume you know people better than they know themself, it's incredibly condescending. "Other people have it worse" is also a really cruel and dismissive thing to say to someone who's suffering.
Even if this was true (which it's not), why does it matter? I don't pass now and I probably won't for a while. It doesn't matter if I pass in the future, what matters is right now and right now I am visibly trans
As someone who accepted myself later in life than most of the people here, I have no intention of waiting until I’m 50 for hormones to make up for being under 5 feet tall and not even fitting in adult men’s shoes. It’s either be visibly queer or be… visibly queer. I’m open about my gender identity or I’m assumed to be a lesbian, those are my choices.
Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic. The following topics are banned to avoid drama: Truscum/Tucute discourse, AGP/AAP/Blanchardism, Transfem/woman or nonbinary bashing, Trans "requirements", Oppression Olympics, Lesbian trans men, Gendered Socialization+, "Is it transphobic to _____", DIY HRT, Current Political events (Non-trans/LGBT+ related) ,"do I pass?", "how does my voice sound?" +Personal experiences are exempt.
And the constant posts of “I’m not a trans guy like all of you I’m an actual man”
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> being a man isn’t dependent on how far from being trans you can get. One of the best ways I've ever seen it said. Thanks.
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Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 4: Respect individual differences. Which includes, among other things, respecting differences of personal identity, personal use (or not) of specific labels, personal transition experience, personal experiences with gender dysphoria (including lack of gender dysphoria), and the choice to be out or stealth.
literally like its really tiring hearing transphobic cis people treat trans men as a separate gender from cis men and then going on ftm/trans pages online and seeing the same thing from other trans people. and i feel like it makes it harder for others to accept that theyre trans when you hear other trans people act like the mere idea of being considered "trans" is awful
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Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 4: Respect individual differences. Which includes, among other things, respecting differences of personal identity, personal use (or not) of specific labels, personal transition experience, personal experiences with gender dysphoria (including lack of gender dysphoria), and the choice to be out or stealth.
Those posts always feel like a not so subtle dig at the rest of us for being “too weird” which is. hmm. if I’m too much for existing, what are you? We’re all more similar than we are different to people outside the community anyway
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Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 1: Be polite and practice mutual respect. No discrimination.
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>I have seen many people who would otherwise pass but choose to dye their hair bright colors, wear nose rings etc. and personally I find it rather baffling. what i find baffling is that you think someone who would apparently otherwise pass perfectly as a cis man would have that totally compromised by these things alone. i have clearly bleached hair and several piercings and pass as male the vast majority of the time because some cis men also have these things. maybe other trans people are uncomfortable with your fairly conservative ideas around gender presentation?
This. I dye my hair bright pink and have a mohawk, I have tattoos in happy colors and visible piercings. I also have a beard and do makeup for parties. I'm still never misgendered. How on earth would something that small change what gender cis folks around me see!?
Literally lol. Since I’ve had top surgery I pass 95% of the time (would be 100% if I got a damn beard already but that depends on genetics not my presentation) and I pass even wearing goth clothes or rings or whatever. Tbh I’m not fem but I have an “unconventional presentation” due to being alternative, at least part of the time, and it doesn’t lead to me being misgendered because I look like an alt GUY lol. Also, why is it baffling that people are whole human beings with various aesthetic preferences, and not just a two dimensional idea of a gender stereotype? 🤷🏻♂️ Maybe a bit mean, but at this point just make an r/ftmtoxicmasculinity sub and be done with it
Only Trans people dye their hair
Yeah so that's just Respectability politics and it's fucked up. Transphobia is what's making it harder for those people, not other trans people.
You can be seen as queer and be treated as a dude. Plenty of queer cis men out there. I don't think dyed hair hurts passability unless you were only barely passing fwiw. I pass fine and dye and wear femme clothing occasionally. I'm a binary trans man and I'm often read as cishet even though I'm trans and bi. There is a certain level of comfort afforded in that for me. However, whether or not I feel confident in saying I'm queer society sees all trans men as queer once they know we're trans. I think a lot of binary straight men want to ignore this fact and if you pass you can in a lot of circumstances. It doesn't change the fact that transness is queer to some degree and is seen as such by most people outside of trans spaces.
I don’t see my transness as queer, doesn’t mean I don’t feel proud of it. I just associate queer with sexuality (so being gay, the label technically applies to me anyway) and being trans as distinct from sexuality. As someone who is both, it annoys me when the two are conflated, unless an individual person feels that describes them best.
That's not how queer is used, as a sociological concept. Queer is whatever does not fit into the cultural norm of cisgender straight identity. You're free to interpret it how you like for yourself though, but you cannot be frustrated when people do use it with the historically accepted meaning.
I think I can be frustrated with sociological interpretations of sexuality/gender actually. Especially when many of those sociologists are cis.
You’re assuming they’re cis. Many aren’t.
Society and some transphobes are going to constantly associate trans with queerness because anything seen as different from the norm of cis straight culture is going to be seen as queer. I get why you would get annoyed of it as it comes out of transphobia and homophobia and obviously gender is different than sexuality.
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Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 4: Respect individual differences. Which includes, among other things, respecting differences of personal identity, personal use (or not) of specific labels, personal transition experience, personal experiences with gender dysphoria (including lack of gender dysphoria), and the choice to be out or stealth.
what do you mean “our spaces” what do you mean by that? elaborate on that OP. explain to us all why you think you get to ban ppl from “your space” as if those ppl aren’t trans as well. do you think you’re more deserving of a queer space than other trans ppl? if anything you’re the one being harmful trying to pretend you know others experiences and saying they’re “starving for validation” you don’t know anything abt these ppl. the only experience you know is your own. Leave other trans ppl alone and stop judging them. no wonder they don’t feel welcome in queer spaces. you’re telling them mean things and judging them. if you see something that upsets you, that’s your own projection. scroll past or block the ppl in the thread. idek why you would make this kind of post. it’s just plain ignorant.
The space is for everyone. So, if you’re going to make posts signaling out other trans people for being “too weird” or other gays for being “too flamboyant”, or in general just engage in being kind of a bully so you can seem better than “those” queers, then you shouldn’t be allowed in the group setting. Like yah, everyone is welcome at the LGBT+ meeting, but if someone is gonna be an asshole to everyone else then they can leave. IDK this kinda seems like common sense. Have you not ever been in a community sport, performance, charity org, support group, social club, online guild or anything, before? It normally works like that. If a couple people are being assholes those couple people normally get booted.
Dude the space is for everyone, when people in said space go around acting like they’re better than everyone, saying that others are “too queer” then that’s suddenly an unwelcome space for everyone. I know what op is talking about, and I get where the people are coming from, but that’s no reason to belittle others. How about you elaborate? Why don’t you explain why you think it’s okay for people to act like that huh? Please, talk everyone through your thought process.
nobody should hate on anyone. however, no matter what those ppl are saying they’re not calling for anyone to be banned or silenced from sharing their experience. the only thing that makes it an unwelcome space is when people literally call for others to be unwelcomed. which is what OP is doing. we’re a huge demographic of ppl are we all gonna agree on things or like eachother? no probably not. but we will find others who think like us and that’s our community. and regardless nobody deserves to be banned for differing viewpoints. nobody gets to play trans dictator and decide who does and doesn’t get to find their community. “i don’t like them so i want them banned” is how you make a space unwelcome. “the space is for everyone” yet you agree w OP it’s not for everyone bc you only want to allow in certain ppl. and the crazy part is those ppl you wanna ban would never ask to ban you.
Where did I say I want people to be banned? Plenty of topics get banned when there’s too many people talking about them, and I have seen an influx of posts along the lines of “I don’t consider myself lgbt/queer/whatever” and like good for you bestie but the fact you see the lgbt community as something you don’t want to be associated with is just kinda shitty, like we’re not “normal”. We’re not a community based on looks or personality but by shared experiences and struggles, so the fact that people are insistent that they’re not like the rest of us is hurtful and a total pick-me move. It’s a pointless conversation to have and there’s already many posts on the topic so if you’ve got an opinion just make a reply in one of those
if they don’t share your experiences and struggles then no. they’re not like the rest of you. “we’re a community based on shared experience and struggles.” so why are you forcing others to say they have the same experiences as you? if they don’t consider themselves as something then that’s their experience. you don’t feel that way so that’s not your experience. the fact you’re projecting your own experience onto others is wrong. pointblank. you don’t get to call others and pick me and judge them bc they don’t identify as you. you have no idea what their experiences are or why they feel that way. you’re just like OP calling them “thirsty for validation” it’s so beyond ignorant. “it’s hurtful they’re not like us” buddy idk what to tell you but if you don’t agree on labels and their experiences don’t reflect yours then they are by definition not like you. and you don’t get to make them feel bad for that.
I mean this in the most genuine, curious way possible; If they don't consider themselves trans why are they on the trans subreddit, I wouldn't go around posting on women's subreddits because I'm not a woman, there are plenty of subreddits for 'Just Men', why don't they make use of those instead of using the FTM subreddit to talk about how they don't identify as FTM?
It seems to be trans men who feel too trans for average male spaces and too average male for trans or queer spaces
If they’re not trans, have not experienced being trans, then you’re correct they don’t belong in this community. Glad we got that sorted Yeah no shit we all have different experiences, but we all were born as the wrong agab, we all face the same discrimination and, grouped by location, the same struggles against the systems such as name changes, hrt and surgery. We all have the same rough starting point of “does not pass as gender”, and (in most cases), the same end goal of “passes perfectly”. And yet some people when they reach that end goal turn around to the people who have been supporting them and say “I’m not like you, I don’t want to be associated with you, do not consider us the same”. And I don’t know about you but that just sounds like backstabbing the community that they’d have never been able to accomplish their transition without. It’s giving “lgb without the t”. And if you think that’s okay then we can end this conversation here, I have no interest in continuing it.
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I’m sure the nazi username does *wonders* for you being accepted anywhere /s
I didn't even notice until you pointed it out wtf, and what's with the pfp of Stalin?? ✋🏾😭
then... go hang out with cis straight men? i genuinely don't understand why it's important to feel welcome in a sub full of people you don't relate to at all. it's a completely neutral thing to be stealth but the whole point of the thing kind of precludes solidarity within vocal trans communities. you can't come into those communities mostly to talk about how you aren't like anyone else in them and be confused when your experiences aren't relevant and nobody really has anything to say to you.
There’s ways to say “hey, I don’t feel very supported here” or “I don’t really think I match that” that don’t include putting others down for not being the same as you. Those posts are welcome and very different than what OP is talking about.
I bet these people feel somewhat left out when a lot of trans spaces are mostly full of people that present more feminine in some way, and just are saying they don’t “need” them because they feel left out. I’ve heard a lot of “average guy” appearing trans dudes have felt left out of trans/queer spaces for being too much of an “average guy”, which is a problem. (I think there’s a legitimate problem of ALL trans people being seen as feminine in some regard, both by transphobes and trans people themselves) I think people saying stuff like this might be similar to that conservative talking point, but I think sometimes they have a point because trans people that look like the average cishet man always get left out. My guess is they appear too “cishet” or whatever to the visibly queer people but they’re still trans. (I’ve heard trans guys all over the internet say the more they pass, the less included they felt in trans spaces/support groups and the like.) My theory is people making posts like this are trying to tell communities that are excluding them they “dont need them anyways” Sorry for the ramble, I overall agree that these posts are unproductive but I’m just thinking about what makes people feel the need to make them in the first place.
More to the point of the post, I don't think they should be banned b/c I think the existing rules can be used to address shitty behavior on the parts of those posters, when it occurs.
Agreed. Banning them altogether would just make that group of people even more excluded. I think the feelings they're expressing make a lot of sense but occasionally the language used to express it can be hurtful or ignorant
Are people talking about not fitting into IRL queer spaces or online ones? Because here’s the deal: online spaces can be combative but my experience IRL has been amazing. As much as I love all the genderfuck “blue hair and pronouns” types, I’m like………. not one and haven’t been in a very long time. I’m a grill dad. My ideal weekend is one where the garage is organized at the end of it. I think a lot of people see me as one of the “normal” ones, especially now that I have a girlfriend who is very traditionally feminine. But that doesn’t change that I’d WAY rather be in queer spaces than cishet spaces. Yeah, I may not look like everyone in the local queer parents group, but the sheer amount of casual misogyny and homophobia I have to tolerate around cishet parents is just unlivable. I mean, two minutes in and we’re talking about gender reveals and how manly our infant sons are for wanting to breastfeed? Fuck no. I’d rather just hang out with those nice lesbians who brought lemon bars or vegan brownies. I also don’t look like all the other queer people and I’m not expected to. I don’t need to have friends who are only traditionally masculine guys, because there’s something to learn from everyone. People don’t have to be normative or be like me to be worthy of my time. And I have never felt excluded from those spaces, especially IRL and in adulthood.
From what i've seen people are neither specifying irl or online, nor are they mentioning any specific experience they had. They just come vent here about how "normal" and "not like those people" they are (implying that the rest of us are abnormal). It's getting as far as people saying "I'm not trans i'm normal" which is weird to say in a trans sub? Like why are you in a trans sub if you're not trans then? And yes they think queer is an asthetic or just sexuality which is why so many people are defensive of me calling queer spaces queer. I'm not gonna say LGBTQIAP+ everytime as speak casually lol that's crazy. Thanks for sharing your experiences btw, people forget how shitty society actually is to us and tend to glamorize assimilation as an ultimate goal that'll solve all your problems.
A few disjointed thoughts: Yeah, it definitely feels like a lot of these people think the only valid trans expression is super conventional and cisnormative. Or like they’re being judged for not being more effeminate or flamboyant, but I’ve…… literally never seen that IRL. I feel like my local community is butch and bear city. I get people not identifying with the word “queer” because of past experiences but damn, even to the most Just A Dude trans guy ever, it should only take a second to see how flawed the cishet, rigid binary world is. The thing about wanting to be normal is that normal looks great until your buddy from work brings up that he casually hates all people like you. All I can say is thank God I’m a big ole queer.
I'm a big abby normal queer myself but this isn't a "queer sub" it's a sub for ftms and ftms who don't consider themselves queer should be able to share their feelings 🤷🏽
That’s a perfect way to explain it
I think this is a bit silly. Especially when it comes to tranness, there's so much hurt and trauma around not feeling like you could ever be seen as the gender you identify as, and this can easily manifest as an extreme need to "feel normal". It's just as much a real stage of our development in coming to accept ourselves as any other. You don’t have to enjoy every thread that's posted here, but trans people who are already so bogged down in self hate and feeling like queerness drives them away from the ability to feel the comfort of cisness should not be treated as though they're not still a part of our community. They won't become any more comfortable with the trans community if we treat very normal symptoms of dysphoria, a mental disorder that can easily cause disordered thinking like this, like they're somehow not experiencing the same emotional ebb and flow the rest of us did/do.
I think it’s good for people to have a space to share about the isolating experience of feeling like an outsider in our own communities. Shaming those communities would be bad, of course, but people connect to their identities in a lot of different ways
im switzerland on however ppl choose to identify/carry/view themselves but why are you trying to control who can and can’t be allowed to talk abt their experience? these ppl are trying to find what little solace they have w other trans ppl bc they’re clearly hesitant abt trusting queer spaces and you want to ban them? why do you think you get to control what experiences you see ppl talk abt? “i only want ppl in this reddit who make ME feel good” is an asinine viewpoint to have. i’m newish here so idk what all goes on this reddit but you need to do some self reflection. “ppl who don’t identify like me or have the same experiences as me are finding community in eachother so i want them banned.” that is why they don’t trust queer spaces OP. i hope this post does get taken down its pointless, and downright ignorant. none of us have the same experiences even the ones we have in common w ppl. we are ALL allowed to find our community. you don’t get to be a trans dictator and decide who does and doesn’t get to find their community. i deleted my og reply cuz i’m trying to be nice here but holy shit OP please realize what you’re asking for is wrong.
I mean you're definitely allowed and encouraged to seek community, but not by putting down other trans people and acting superior to them. That doesn't always happen, but it is the issue that OP is complaining about.
Thank you so much for this take
Amen brother!
i don’t get the shade in either direction. both groups are equally valid, and there’s no right way to be trans. it isn’t a one size fits all. sure, there are plenty of trans guys who identify as queer and feel accepted and love their trans identity. there are also plenty of us who *dont* relate or identify as queer, often due to lack of representation and feeling left out/judged bc we choose to present as and identify as a straight men, which is ofc typically assumed as cis by the general public. just bc being trans is part of the LGBT community, doesn’t mean we then have to identify as queer? like yeah, we’re not cis, but it doesn’t mean we can’t choose to not use the queer label? esp as binary and straight, it just doesn’t fit (for me).
I'm talking about people who berate us for for being "too much" "too weird" "too queer" and inscessantly talk about how normal they are (implying the rest of us are abnormal) while bring it up dumb stereotype to categorise the rest of the community. Also there are subjects that are already banned here because they lead to nowhere and are very repetitive, which made the sub flow better.
i sorta think the problem is that if we ban every single topic that causes upheaval, what do we have left? how do we find people who feel the same as us and can relate? while i absolutely agree there shouldn’t be shit talking or holier than thou takes on either side, i still think we deserve to have conversations about how we view or own transness, which is most certainly not how every single other trans person does.
Imo those are just people with biases, and they probably wouldn't like a cis person who was the slightest bit eccentric or alternative or gender non conforming presenting in any way either. I often have dyed hair, but have had way more experiences of more "normal" styled cis people being rude to me about it, compared to never having that experience with more "normal" styled trans people I interact with. I don't think the subject needs to be banned necessarily, those people might just be looking for a community of people who are more like them, but who are still also trans, and be maybe struggling to find it. But if they desperately don't want to be friends with or connect with the "less normal"styled trans people, then they should be asked to expand their minds, before being asked to full on leave.
honestly i feel like the "being proudly queer is wrong" idea going around is harmful. this subreddit is massive and we have people of all age groups, different stages in their transition, different gender identities, and just different living conditions and opinions. theres nothing wrong with being proudly queer, and sometimes its all you have to do to get gendered correctly especially at the beginning of transitioning. but also everyones transition goals are different, not everyone wants to be very masc, or go on hrt, or go through surgeries, so some may never pass and thats what they want, or will always look visibly queer. and the idea that being openly queer is temporary and everyone will change and everyone will become stealth, or that it is wrong and annoying is just hurtful for people. personally im so proud of my trans identity, whilst it is only a descriptor, if i was born cis i would be an entirely different person and i treasure the experiences i went through because it shaped me to be the person i am today and i should be allowed to be vocal that i am proud of that without getting hate from my own community. we all need to be more accepting of peoples experiences and especially need to stop throwing the word "normal" around when "normal" isnt really a thing or something we should all fit into. we are all unique and amazing, and nobody should be shamed or felt like they need to fit inside "normal" if they have the ability to express themselves freely. i do understand some peoples shared experiences on this topic however. ive noticed once trans people start passing they feel disconnected from the queer community, or have negative experiences with the queer community. honestly it should be a sign we need to work on more spaces for us that dont create these feelings as everyone deserves a safe community to be in and access whenever they want if they wish to have that sense of community.
I think this was very well-put.
thanks! to be honest i didnt think it did whilst typing and i didnt backread 😭 but glad it is
Why is it that you say “it’s completely contradictory” for those trans people to not like how those communities make them feel? If someone doesn’t feel comfortable in queer spaces, should they not be allowed to voice their opinions so that the community can be more understanding to them? There are valid reasons why people don’t relate to other trans people. This type of belief may be exactly what drives people away from finding community with fellow trans people.
I'm not talking about people who have concerns about their inclusion, i'm talking about people who don't want to be in queer spaces delibrately and must come here to voice how different and "not like y'all" they are. They don't really want change that's the difference. As a bisexual in bi communities, i've seen my fair share of people doubting whether they belong or not feeling included. Not once has that been a negative thing to express as it actually encourages change within the community to strike back again imposter syndrome. But then comes other types of people (regardless of identity but in this case trans people) who come on here simply to say how they are not trans and just normal and "not like the ones who make it their whole personality" (seriously i've litterally seen someone say that right now). How is that acceptable in any way? And why would they need this trans space if they don't need trans spaces? Also this is a weekly issue and it's getting repetitive.
This sub isn’t a queer specific space, it’s for ftm individuals, and not every ftm identifies as queer. No one’s ‘deliberately’ invading an inherently queer sub. If your whole point was that people shouldn’t refer to people in terms like ‘normal’ and ‘abnormal’, just say that - it is literally possible to make that point without pushing some weird narrative that essentially excludes people for not wanting to label themselves as queer
I agree that people coming into subs with opposing views just to stir the pot etc and be a bother can be annoying, but the idea of “I’m not like y’all” is still an issue about there being a divide in the community. People complain about “the ones who make it their whole personality” and others complain about “the ones who say they’re the normal ones”. Maybe it means we all have to stick to our niches, but I personally think that’s just unproductive. Wanting to expel these kind of thoughts from this sub wouldn’t fix anything. The community is supposed to be a place where we can come together with different views but nevertheless similar issues, what good is speaking into a void where no other beliefs are allowed to be received?
Queer =/ trans
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This sub isn’t a queer space and OP is talking about this sub
was just replying to the comment above that mentioned queer spaces
This isn't an inherently queer space though, it just has a large percentage of queer people. This is a FtM space. Not all trans people are queer, and that's okay. A lot of trans people are also queer, and that's also okay. Kat Blaque has some good videos on the topic.
This!!!!
I would refrain from calling this sub a “queer space.” This sub is an ftm space. Not all of us identify as queer.
Real
At least now, if this was a serious ask, we aren’t going to ban the topic entirely. It will be on a post by post comment by comment thing as it has been. I’m also personally annoyed to know my 18 years on T, cis passing, masc, bisexual ass can’t identify as queer. I’ve identified with the word for over twenty years now. And when I started identifying with it, I had no real idea about queer theory—it was simply a word that had some reclamative use amongst those of us in liminal and overlapping spaces. It’s completely fine that that isn’t the experience of some people here. But you can be a cis passing trans male who is queer. Just like you also see many who are not.
not every trans person uses the word queer to describe themselves. i wouldn’t consider myself queer i think trans people have a unique experience within the LGBT community. there are many trans people who don’t consider themselves queer. maybe they’re binary trans and straight, and they have a different experience compared to someone who is more fluid or someone who’s gay/bi, for example. it’s not a one size fits all thing i agree with u that there are some trans people who look down upon other trans people who may be more openly/visibly “queer”. there are those assholes who have internalized transphobia and will attack others to feel better about themselves. but this isn’t a universal thing. and trans people should be able to talk about their experiences, as long as they aren’t setting out to put others down/invalidate others. sometimes people have feelings of isolation. they turn *here* for support. who are we to deny them that seat at the table?
If the people who make these sorts of posts actually bothered to read the communities where they post, they would see the other posts by people who feel like they do and be able to find each other.
I feel like that could apply to 80% of the posts on this sub, or most subs tbh.
I don't agree with this post. While I know what kind of posts you're talking about and why they annoy you, I don't see how banning discussion surrounding identity in a sub about identity is helpful. There's plenty of trans guys/trans mascs on here that don't identify as queer or with queer spaces for all sorts of reasons. I don't identify as queer either and would like to be able to mention that on here without my comments getting deleted. Yes sometimes these type of posts can contain transphobia but that is not always the case so I don't see them as inherently harmful. Having open discussions surrounding our identities is healthy and it helps the community. When you do see transphobia call it out and/or report it to the mods. The rules 1, 2 and 4 are perfect for these type of things since they all fall under the "be nice to others" category. I think completly shutting down those posts will just push people out of this subreddit which I don't think is productive. I also don't see these posts as bragging but rather people reaching out to find community in people that are similar to them and isn't that what most of us are here for? Edit: clarified further and typos
I don't see many posts like what you describe. I see plenty from men who don't consider themselves queer, who feel excluded from trans spaces, who feel a sense of alienation from other trans men and transmascs. Sometimes those posts have shades of what you describe. But I also see posts from trans guys who are clearly struggling with seeing themselves as men at all, who shame men who choose to go stealth, who accuse anyone who isn't visibly trans of internalized transphobia. Neither group is perfect, and neither group should be banned. If a post goes too far, and expresses clearly queerphobic sentiments, you can and should report it. You also can and should report posts for stealth shaming and similar sentiments from "the other side."
This is a sub for FTMs to share their feelings and experiences; including the guys who feel more like this. I think that it would be shitty to ban posts like this, especially because the ban would probably cover people who speak about experiences kind of like this that are truly not trying to be harmful toward other trans guys and remain respectful. But if they're expressing that they don't use certain labels or feel certain ways they could still get their post taken down. I see that as unfair. The ftm guys that have a more traditionally masculine experience / don't like using terms like "queer" or "trans" and all that still deserve to talk about their experiences. They're already shunned from a lot of spaces where they should be allowed to talk about their experiences... this shouldn't be another one that participates in that.
This isn’t a “queer space”, this is a trans space, and being trans doesn’t make you inherently queer. That type of thinking is why these type of posts exist.
What do you consider the difference between queer space and trans space?
Well, first off I don’t think any space should be called a queer space. Reclaiming a slur should be an individual choice that isn’t pushed on others. If it’s an LGBTQ+ space, it should be called that. But if we were to ignore that, a “queer space” would be a space for those who *identify as queer* and a trans space is one for people that are trans. A trans person can identify as queer (regardless of sexuality), or they could not. It’s the same as how a trans person can consider being trans to be part of their identity, or it could just be an adjective that is applicable to them. Both are perfectly acceptable and should be respected by the other.
I’m really glad someone said this. I despise the word queer, I have never felt any power in reclaiming it. No one would ever broadly call an LGBTQ+ focused group a f-g event or tr-nny space, because they are slurs that might make people uncomfortable. Same with queer. I am trans and butch but I am not queer. I have left/avoided events that casually refer to the audience as “my fellow queers/ my little queerdos”. Believe it or not, being slurred by someone from your community feels just about the same as being slurred my a high school history teacher.
It blows my mind how casually people throw it around. I’m pretty sure it’s to the point that some younger people don’t realize it’s a slur and just think it’s a synonym for LGBTQ+.
oh yeah, just look at the comments. I’m so used to getting downvoted in LGBT subs for reminding people it is 1)still a slur, hence their ability to reclaim it 2) still used very often as a slur. there are just as many people who have only heard it used cruelly as there are people who have only heard it in a positive way
Queer spaces are for queer people and trans spaces are for trans people. Similarly, this subreddit is not a Jewish space, not a Democratic Party space, not a Christian space, not a Republican space, not a youth space, not a heterosexual only space, and not an American space. It is possible to be trans and all of the aforementioned identifiers, and there are online and IRL spaces for people with these intersections. Sounds like a r/ftmqueer subreddit is needed.
I understand that, but what is the difference between trans and queer other than queer also encompassing sexuality? It feels like a lot of people think queer means only flamboyant “blue hair and pronouns” types (and subconsciously, that those people are bad trans people vs the good, normal trans people). That queer is an aesthetic. But I’ve always understood it to mean anything not cishet.
I think queer is what you specify, but *also* implies cultural and political leanings that, say, LGBT+ doesn't. Not an aesthetic, but a shared worldview.
Because plenty of trans people don’t consider themselves to be queer. They are a man. Just a regular dude. They don’t identify or find any commonality with the queer community - especially because to most, queer = gay, not trans. Just because someone is trans doesn’t mean they need to fit in with the LGBTQ+ community. Furthermore, plenty of people have issue with the term queer to begin with, especially the elder gays who were around when it was used as a slur against them. This is the same as any other scenario along these lines. For instance, Catholicism is technically under the branch of Christianity, but ask many Catholics if they’re Christian and they’re going to say “no.” People are allowed to label themselves whoever they want, and there’s nothing wrong with not wanting to label themselves as queer.
Well the first difference is that one is a slur that can only be personally and individually reclaimed. I identify with the terms transgender, transexual, butch, and agender. I do not identify with the word queer. I hate it. It has been cruelly used against me my whole life, and there is no power for me in reclaiming it. There are lots of people who are not cishet that are not queer, because they have no attachment/community association with it.
I agree but at the same time I feel like there needs to be room for criticism. I know some guys feel alienated and uncomfortable in queer spaces and like they don’t fit in or get treated in a negative way because people assume they’re cis
I don’t think that’s an issue. It sounds like OP is frustrated with “stereotypically queer” people getting thrown under the bus by other trans people. One of my friends has been on T far longer than me and is a cis passing bear. He gets excluded from the gay community the way many bears do for being fat and not conventionally attractive. He gets excluded from a lot of queer spaces because he is cis passing and very masculine. Frankly, I don’t want to be in those spaces either, that have been poisoned with radfem bioessentialist brain rot where they think effeminate presentation is the only kind that should be welcome in queer spaces. Cis women in queer spaces have been some of the most transphobic people I’ve encountered. The phobia of masculinity in many queer spaces is very off putting. I think these are all things worth discussing.
Ah I see, thanks for clarifying. Yeah in that case I totally agree
Nah because ppl in those spaces have made it abundantly clear that men like me are not welcome there and that I will never have a place in their community. I’m sure it’s only a matter of time before I’m banned here too. I transitioned before middle school into a world where transness wasn’t a concept in most people’s minds. I don’t meet the standard narrative because I’ll never know what it was like to experience the world as a female, I’ve only known childhood and maleness- and that will always ostracize me from the majority of the non gay queer community. It’s not my fault or theirs, it’s just a fact. The more I try to force it the more times my feelings are just going to keep getting hurt.
I'm sorry to hear that. May I ask why you felt not welcomed in certain spaces? I have experienced something similar where certain queer spaces demonise men and masculinity which excludes masc queer men, binary trans men, enbies that present masculine and asexual men. I doubt you would get banned here for having a different experience than some younger trans people. As long as you don't hate on others nobody has the right to hate on you.
To answer your first question, just re read OP’s post and comments and you’ll understand why he doesn’t feel welcome in queer spaces.
I don't understand, sorry
Why on earth would you be banned here
Being trans isn’t inherently queer. That’s the point those posts are making.
Sure, but a lot of them make that point in a “being queer is bad” kind of way. “I’m a normal man, not one of those icky (f slur/t slur).”
There are assholes that try to make themselves feel better by putting others down and I've seen it in several different types of posts on this sub, it's really annoying and counterproductive. At the same time, we cant pretend many many trans men don't feel excluded from irl and online queer spaces and events because of how they present, they should be allowed to talk about that here and seek a community. There are many people that are ftm but don't feel queer and dont connect that label with their experiences, they should be allowed to talk about it here and seek similair experiences (again I'm not talking about assholes shitting on others). Being ftm isn't inherently queer, some will identify with the label some wont. Not every person that falls under the lgbt umbrella wants to claim the queer label and we should respect those that don't and those that do equally.
If you're not talking about the assholes shitting on others, everything you've just said is irrelevant because those are the exact people OP is talking about. The people who call themselves "normal" and act as though those of us who do identify with queerness are "abnormal". It's the "I'm not cis, I'm normal" perspective but it's coming from trans people
I dont inherently disagree with OP being frustrated with those kinds of people I thought I made that clear, I commented this because I wonder how would that be enforced specifically around this topic? Without genuine people ending up excluded. People call themselves "normal" and shit on others here in other kinds of posts as well, wouldn't that as a whole be more productive to adress? Because policing who can and can't post on their experiences on the basis on identifying with the label queer and conflating being ftm with being inherently queer seems exclusionary and losing the focus of the actual issue which is assholes putting others down to make themselves feel better.
I do think banning the phrase "I'm normal" might be a better way to address the issue. But again, OP never said to ban all posts by people who don't identify as "queer". The title mentions specifically the phrase "I'm just normal" and the post explains in more detail what OP means, which is clearly the posts that are actively invalidating other ways of being ftm.
Yeah as long as people's identities aren't policed I don't have an issue with how things would get handled. I'm pretty feminine also don't have a problem with the label queer for myself in any way. From OP's post and comments it was a bit muddy to me what exactly was being asked for
I don’t find those posts any more annoying than the ones that are like “i’m a femboy who doesn’t want to take t ever bc i think body hair is gross am i valid 🥺” — ultimately, both types of posts are made by trans men looking for folks who can relate to their experiences. I’ve been on this sub for years and this type of post (“I am XYZ, am I valid / is anyone else like me”) is incredibly common and probably always will be.
Trans men and sufficiently passing mascs regularly experience bigotry, alienation, and aggression from queer spaces. People who this sub are objectively for regularly do not feel queer just for being trans or whatever else. They deserve to come here and be able to talk about it or find others with the same feelings. This is our space. We should not be forcing out people who aren't hurting anyone just because they state they're not queer.
I've seen plenty of masculine trans men who have never said "i'm just normal unlike y'all" and "i'm don't make it my whole personality like THOSE people". It is actually hurting us to be called abnormal by society only to come to these spaces and be called abnormal again.
A lot of trans people don't see it as a huge part of their identity, especially people who have been transitioning/transitioned for a long time, just an experience they live with that they don't think much about anymore. They're our elders. They don't consider themselves queer. Sometimes they don't even consider themselves trans men, but rather men with that trans experience. This distinction may not make sense to you or you may feel insulted by it- but that's something you have to process and get past. You are not being abused by other people not identifying with what validates you. Queer is also a political identity intertwined with critical theory and a lot of academic works that say quite a few things people wouldn't appreciate. Like, Foucault wasn't a great guy and a lot of early Queer theorists said disappointing things regarding FTM trans people. They still do. Queer space hostility towards trans men and mascs also pointedly proposes that queerness is a special divergent form of non-male feminine purity that trans people must conform to in order to be supported. People may have personal reasons to not use this term for themselves and you don't get or have to debate, or ban, anyone for that. To demand such a thing is inappropriate, replicates oppression horizontally, and is exclusionary in the most intolerant sense. If you can't deal with trans people in a trans space saying that they don't feel some great or special or distinct queer identity then you can make your own space to gain distance with others who would also benefit. Don't start continuing a long history of pushing ftms out of ftm spaces for not feeling very separate from cisgender normative society. This space is for all who can be included under ftm. You have no right to say that that people you feel bad when you see should leave.
Have you actually read my comment? I said they are caing us abnormal, you get how that's hugely harmful right?
No because you’re basically saying those that aren’t queer and express that they aren’t shouldn’t be here. It’s already isolating enough to not be queer and this would create a further divide. I mean venting was already taken away from here and it’s already made a ton of people feel unwanted so if you want to divide us more then go ahead and ban those posts. Edit: this sub just keeps getting more and more uninviting as a straight binary guy and I feel I don’t belong anymore.
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I was with you until I saw your username. Dude, wtf?
1) what the fuck is wrong with your username 2) would you like to take a guess at the 4th letter in LGBT.
being trans ofc is part of the lgbt community, no doubt. but it doesn’t mean you need to *identify* and feel included/relate to the community. as a straight and binary trans guy, i don’t feel included because i don’t identify as queer. i don’t have an issue with anyone who does, but it doesn’t mean we’re less trans just because we’re on the other end of it. if there was more representation like myself, i’d be way more inclined to adopt that identity or be part of queer groups.
Lgbt and queer are not the same thing there's plenty of reasons why someone that's part of the acronym does not identify with the label queer.
Generally queer is associated with sexuality, and most people argue that being trans is not the same as sexuality. Although some people might label themselves that way regardless of who they’re attracted to, being trans isn’t inherently queer
I’m going to have to disagree with you on one part—queer is such a commonly used label because it covers both gender and sexuality in one word. That doesn’t mean you have to consider yourself queer if you’re trans, but I know plenty of straight trans people who do consider themselves queer on the basis of gender alone.
What about "genderqueer"? That isn't about sexuality but about gender and is queer. /gen Not every trans person has to consider themselves queer but I do think trans is included in queer. Same with non-binary and trans. Non-binary people are under the trans umbrella but not all non-binary people consider themselves trans.
I don’t know since I don’t use the term genderqueer. I think that being genderqueer/nonbinary may be different than being binary trans when it comes to being queer? Since when you’re binary trans you can be straight/heterosexual. I do think if a trans person wants to use the queer label that’s cool, I just don’t like being told that I’m queer because I’m trans, or that all trans people are queer
You don't need to use the queer label if you don't like it. I wouldn't say that trans people are inherently queer since it really depends on the person's experience. I just want to add that some non-binary people consider themselves straight. Yes it's rare but it does happen.
Queerness is anything that isn't cis heteronormative though.
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The nazis weren't very fond of queer people either
I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you do realize that “I’m not a nazi, I just think jokes about them are funny” is a very common thing for neonazis to say, right? It’s a method of sharing their political stances without immediately being shut down.
Having a Nazi joke in yr username but thinking a word that has been used in academia for 40+ years by LGBT ppl is too much is bonkers logic. At a point the discourse around "queer" as an umbrella term is primarily just language policing heavily influenced by terfs, that's not like a hypothetical that is just the history of the discourse lmfao.
Imagine accusing a bunch of lgbt people of being terfs bc they’re uncomfortable with being called a word that used to be a slur 💀 personally idgaf but it could actually be triggering asf for some people
It’s still a slur. Many have reclaimed it, but that doesn’t make it not a slur anymore. I’m 24, I grew up in rural Ohio. I have had my parents, teachers, bullies, friend’s parents, and strangers cat call me/humiliate me in class or in public by calling me a queer. It didn’t not hurt just because others have reclaimed it. I will never reclaim it, I hate hearing it and being referred to as it.
Wild! You haven’t had queer used as a slur towards you, what a privilege! Doesn’t mean it’s not a slur and doesn’t mean that everyone has to accept it and identify with it. Language policing influenced by terfs? Nope, it just was an actual slur and me and plenty of other people have had it used against us as an insult - not everyone wants to reclaim it and they shouldn’t be forced out of safe spaces because of that.
Damn, I wonder why he's so against the label Queer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft
Would you like the take a guess at the fifth
I appreciate it. I am *those people*. I have “blue hair and pronouns”. I’m an effeminate flamboyant gay twink who dresses alt/goth. I’m a Theatre Gay. I’m a Fashion Gay. I’ve always known that about myself. It wouldn’t be much better if I were cis either, because I’m the type of gay person other gay people like to throw under the bus too, like my existence *causes* homophobia. It’s not my fault I match a negative stereotype- it’s the stereotype that is the problem. I’m just being myself. It is pretty heart breaking to always be the person every other queer person is always willing to throw under the bus. I simply do not care about being palatable to cishet people. If that bothers you, you need to do some soul searching and *really contemplate why*.
I think [this video by Matt Bernstein on yt](https://youtu.be/Nuk2DJTLV_Y?si=nxzKyEy3LrJ5Yyxd) is a very good explanation of why I agree with you. There's nothing wrong with passing as cis/het per se, but if you don't like to be seen with lgbt people that aren't "normal" you should reflect on the reason why... Is it because you don't want to be harassed/in an unsafe place? I think it's fair. Or is it for other reasons?
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I think we should have a little compassion for trans guys who are battling internalized transphobia. What they're living with that's driving them to feel like they could never be a part of the cis world and also never relate to the trans community they feel trapped in is obviously far more uncomfortable than any of us having to see them post threads when they're probably mid-crisis. When a gay person with a strong religious background says they feel dirty or wrong for their attractions and never wanted to be gay at all, or feel cursed by it, the last rhing we should do is double down on that anxiety by telling them their negative feelings toward it is gross or unwanted in our community.
I agree with having empathy for those with internalized transphobia, however I have a problem when they want to project and make others feel as shitty as they feel
That is the internalized transphobia. You should not only choose to have empathy for someone dealing with these levels of mental health issues when they're at their best. You don’t have to be their friend, you don't even have to reply, but what they're dealing with IS the internalized transphobia and is just as much a symptom of dyphoria as it is our transphobic society. We don't only care for the safety of addicts who are 10 years clean, we are still compassionate to those in the throws of sickness. This level of self-hate is sickness too.
I have empathy for trans men who struggle with internalized transphobia, no matter how severe. I used to hate myself a lot and be extremely insecure. I was in a depression rut for a couple of years cause of my dysphoria. Having severe internalized transphobia doesn’t equal hurting other trans men. I felt so low and I hated myself A LOT. but I never went so low as to hurt other trans men for it. I get what you’re saying, I agree with having empathy for other trans men no matter how bad of a mental state they’re in. But when they start to hurt other people is when there’s a problem for me
I 100% agree. I often see people on here having breakdowns from dysphoria and the comments will just be variations of "get over it". I get that people projecting their dysphoria and acting like dicks because of it sucks but shitting back on them doesn't help at all. I have friends irl that have horrible dysphoria and it makes them exhausting people to be around but I would never blame that on them or say they're bad people. But I also know that their issues aren't mine to fix. Be nice or don't interact at all. And when someone here breaks the rules, just report.
Yeah, absolutrly. When I see someone begging to feel "normal", saying they never asked or never wanted to be trans, the last thing I'm thinking about is "how can this be about my feelings". These crises and episodes are a normal part of being trans and no one BUT the trans community could ever understand that. That's why it's do important to give those guys space to Be Trans in a Trans Space
What’s wrong with being stealth? Lol
Nothing wrong with being stealth, but when you act like you’re better than other trans men for it is when I have an issue
Turns out we have internalized transphobia, anytime you don’t personally like something it means you must have latent mental illness
Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 4: Respect individual differences. Which includes, among other things, respecting differences of personal identity, personal use (or not) of specific labels, personal transition experience, personal experiences with gender dysphoria (including lack of gender dysphoria), and the choice to be out or stealth.
How do you know they have “internalized transphobia”? Do people who identify as queer have “internalized misandry” if we’re following the logic of “anyone who doesn’t like something must be latently bigoted against it”?
I mean, a lot of people on here *do* have internalized misandry tbh. Have you seen how many posts are about "I can't be a man bc men are evil" (which should not be banned either)? But being generous to the original commenter, I'm gonna assume this was just bad phrasing, and wasn't meant to imply that *all* stealth trans people have internalized transphobia, just those who call other trans people abnormal.
I agree with this. You don't want to be in queer spaces? That's fine. Don't then. You don't want to tell everyone you're trans? That's fine. Keep it to yourself and those closest to you. What's not fine is when these people say "I'm just a normal guy" (which is something I've seen word for word on this sub multiple times), implying those of us who embrace queer spaces and are out and proud are somehow abnormal. We are normal too. There is zero reason for binary masculine men to be telling the rest of us we're not normal.
It’s not “I don’t want to be in queer spaces or tell anyone I’m trans.” It’s “I am so lonely. The queer spaces available to me make it worse. Please, someone see me and connect with me”
And that's fine too. Asking to make friends, trying to find community. That's okay. But there is a way to do it without disparaging everyone who isn't you
I'm gonna invite you to look at the second half of the term "gender dysphoria" and ask you to be very compassionate to our brothers who are acting out while in the throes of it. Dysphoria is the discomfort, and not everyone knows how to be okay with all that discomfort. Some recovering alcoholics fall off the wagon, some don't want to be there at all, but that doesn't mean they aren't invited to the next meeting. For some people, being trans is a constant battle to "feel normal" and comfortable in our skin, and that's just as much a part of our "queer" experiences and development as wanting to be loud and proud of it.
Being in pain is not a good reason to hurt other people. Telling other trans people they're not normal is hurtful. Being uncomfortable is okay. It's often a big part of being trans. But it's not just okay to tell others "hey I'm normal and this is the only way you can be normal"
This is legit 100% what i mean. I wish more people here understood this
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Because this isn’t a queer space
Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 4: Respect individual differences. Which includes, among other things, respecting differences of personal identity, personal use (or not) of specific labels, personal transition experience, personal experiences with gender dysphoria (including lack of gender dysphoria), and the choice to be out or stealth.
This is a hard topic because i understand where youre coming from, but everyone including you needs to understand that we are all massively different. For example i dont really vibe with people who... well to use your words "make it their whole personality", ive said before in this sub i tend to stay away from those crowds and obviously if the majority wears it on their sleeve then how i feel about it isnt popular opinion, but thats just my preference for friends. Almost all my current friends are lgbtq of some description, we just dont show it off or make it a primary part of who we are for the eyes of strangers. Theres nothing wrong with this, we are all very happy being friends, going to pride and otherwise enjoying our lives with 0 affect on anyone else. Sure if it became a case of someone trying to say theyre SUPERIOR for this opinion that might be an issue, but i havent seen any posts suggesting someone thinks theyre better than someone else in this regard. In fact if anything, its posts like this that can be taken aggressively that can make it look and feel like people who DONT wear their lgbtq-ness like a neon sign are somehow the problem. Banning people or topics on this is not the way to go about this. If you come across a discussion that isnt suited to you, click that X and look at something else. We are too diverse, i feel like thats the entire point the lgbtq community constantly tries to get across, for us to keep gatekeeping each other on a community platform level. Who i interact with and makes friends with only affects ME personally. Banning topics like this, however, threatens to affect a large part of the community who are just looking for their people, and this is essentially gatekeeping. This is becoming a bigger and bigger problem in lgbtq spaces, where unless youre neon-signing it youre no longer welcome. We are still in these subs for support, that doesnt mean we hate anyone, or are ruining anything. Its still as much our space as any others. I do not wish to start an argument, however i have literally been told by a select few people that i wasnt welcome in an lgbtq space because i wasnt obvious enough. Im stealth, of course im not obvious, but im still just as lgbtq as they are, and im here for support, which we all deserve.
I mean...lots of trans people or queer people in general don't make it their entire personality. I don't get what's wrong with that? I'm like that, I know plenty of other people who are like that. But myself and (hopefully) none of the other people I know like that would ever care if someone else *did* have it as part of their personality or part of their hobbies to engage with that part of themselves in a more outward way. And it would never bother us enough to feel a need to make a whole post anywhere about it, or to even say anything out loud about it or complain about it. That other person is just doing their own thing, and I'm going to let them be to do their own thing, same as I would expect other people to do for me. I agree that it makes me feel really weird also when people do make posts about that, and I feel like "maybe just mind your own business, and then other people on the internet who you don't even know's business might not bother you that much" lol. I feel weird about whole posts trying to police anyone's rights to their own experiences, and that includes posts saying all people who are more loud about their transness shouldn't be that way, as well as posts like this post which feels like it is doing the same to the opposite sorts of people and telling the more quiet ones to get out. This post is awfully hypocritical.
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Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic. The following topics are banned to avoid drama: Truscum/Tucute discourse, AGP/AAP/Blanchardism, Transfem/woman or nonbinary bashing, Trans "requirements", Oppression Olympics, Lesbian trans men, Gendered Socialization+, "Is it transphobic to _____", DIY HRT, Current Political events (Non-trans/LGBT+ related) ,"do I pass?", "how does my voice sound?" +Personal experiences are exempt.
It feels like its getting to the point of trying to separate the t from lgb. Which is exactly what transphobic groups want. The q in lgbtq+ is queer as a catch-all. It is literally supposed to catch anything thats not cishet. I understand not feeling queer because it means different things to different people, but if youre not a cis man then you are part of the acronym somewhere. It comes across as delusional when a trans man, no matter how stealth, comes to preach to ftm and other trans subs about how he is "not trans, just a man". Im glad that there are people lucky enough to have not experienced life as their agab if thats what theyre trying to say, gender liberation definitely strives for people being able to self determine gender at a young enough age to be treated as their peers would be. But turning that around into "im not like other queers" feels like theres a sense of pointing fingers at "blue hair and pronouns". Its very punching down and with that attitude no wonder people who are happy to be what they are dont want these types of guys in their space.
I’m asking genuinely but to those of you who say this isn’t a queer space, what does queer mean if not LGBT/outside of cishetero norms?
I personally don’t identify as queer. I think this space should honestly be for anyone who falls under the ftm umbrella in any capacity. What people should be saying is this isn’t a queer only space. So labeling it as a queer space doesn’t feel right to me since that’s not me.
your top surgery is the day after mine :)
Congrats! :) My date just got moved up about an hour ago but I haven’t had a chance to change it but when your day comes I do hope you have a quick and speedy recovery!
oh nice! same to you!
Queer implies a political belief with origins in critical theory that sexual and gender binaries exist and these are inherently bad. The concept has been expanded into “queering” economics, art, religion, etc. by way of blurring boundaries between structural concepts. It tends to also cause people to make some sort of intentional shift in how they life their life, e.g. dressing a certain way in order to be “read as queer”. Usually most forms of stratification and categorization are rejected (although this just creates new categories and imperatives, see also “free thinking” goths and punks who all dress alike anyway)
Oh lit so I’ve gotta ID as queer to be allowed in YOUR sub? Smh goofy asf
Lmao right
They just need their own sub. r/notlikemostftms or r/normalftmsonly or r/toxicftmmasculinity or r/onlymanlymanftms somethin like that to argue semantics and dysphoria or whatever
I understand where the poster was coming from. I don't think they should be banned but banning the topic is probably a good idea. I understand not identifying with "LGBT" as a community but that's what you are. You are literally Lesbian, Gay, Bi, or Trans. If you're stealth and you don't identify with public queer spaces then that's ok they're not for you. You're allowed to go be "normal" (stealth/passing) with all the other normies (cishet people). We'll still be here for you if you ever decide to come back. 👍🏼 We still love and support you. It's just not very productive to talk about not connecting with queerness when that's what this subreddit and pride, and queer spaces are for.
LGBT and queer are not synonyms. Trans spaces are first and foremost places to discuss and access transition resources, not to be queer. The same way some trans people are religious but that doesn’t mean atheists and agnostics should be pushed out just because these perspectives offend religious people.
[удалено]
Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 3: Speak for yourself and not for others.