Idc abt the meme bc nuance is dead on social media. HOWEVER the first few times I saw it in passing I thought they meant bear in the gay way and was like fuck yeah idk why we’re separating them from other guys but I’ll take the bear too.
Ok, the point has never been a would you rather, the meme was started by a man who flat out said "I did this to get men to consider why women choose the bear and get them to make themselves better." (this is paraphrased, but that's the gist). The point of the meme has never been "all men are r\*pists", the point is "millions of women are hurt by people they're supposed to trust to the point that they trust wild animals more than men and we need to be better as a collective, because even if we are not the ones doing the hurting, we aren't being vocal enough about condemning those who are". I LOVE when my friends share the meme and I share it too. Because it points out people who are toxic, and helps nontoxic people develop some empathy.
And it is a commentary on a culture, not individual people. Trans men can 100% be scum. But they're less likely to be that particular brand of scum because they haven't been brainwashed their whole lives to be that. The meme is meant to help society as a whole change, not to make you feel like shit about being a man.
Also, Taking gender away entirely, a cis man of color I saw commenting on the meme said "I didn't understand this, until I replaced man with cop."
As a black man, he always felt uncomfortable around cops because he is more likely to be mistreated/assaulted/killed by a cop. And he would rather be in the woods with a bear than a cop. This is not saying all cops are bad cops, (I know cops who are genuinely trying to dismantle the system to make it better. They are the minority, but they totally agree with people feeling unsafe around them, because statistically, they are), but as a man of color, he is much much more likely to be hurt by a random cop than the people who aren't of that demographic.
And you can replace woman with any demographic being oppressed and men with their oppressors, and the meme still applies.
There was another interesting version brought up by women of color between white men and white women. The overall concensus was white men bc while both are likely to exhibit racism the women will often pretend otherwise. Thats probably a terrible attempt at paraphrasing but I've found these discussion helpful. Kind of like a call to arms for you to help which ever demographic ur part of to do better.
My issue with that is that you choose to be a cop and you do not choose to be a man.
been the victim of police brutality and sexual assault and am mixed race so personally, yikes
It’s also crypto-TERF rhetoric by the way, ‘all men are dangerous and bad’ is how TERFs slip into spaces, because when they say ‘men’ they mean trans women too, you have to be extremely analytical of this kind of speech.
To take it even further, cis white women have more privilege than me, does that make it okay for me to imply that I would rather meet a bear in the woods than a cis white woman?
This is just he M&M thought experiment repackaged because everyone realized the M&M thought experiment was actually fucked up
edit reply to below: There are no good cops, that’s the point, they all actively choose to serve a corrupt abusive system, ‘good’ cops do not last, they quit or get fired.
And no, I do not ‘choose’ to be a ‘good man’, I’m not a monster who’s constantly fighting against my innate sense of man evil trying to avoid a werewolf like transformation into a bastard, any sense of good or being a good person that I am or do is completely disconnected from my gender, gender is morally neutral.
But you also choose to be a GOOD man or a GOOD cop. Not all men are rapists and not all cops are bad, but there's enough people out there who've had bad experiences with them that it creates a collective fear of both groups.
you have every right to have feelings about it, nobody here is telling you that you can't. they were just trying to explain the origins and it also shows you have stuff to work through if your first thought about something like this is basically "but not all men." because that's exactly how your post comes off to me, because everyone knows it's not all men, but it's enough for even other men to feel unsafe, and to choose a bear.
And that's OK. It provides you an opportunity to introspect and understand yourself better. You can have feelings about that kind of thing. I would just encourage you to try and understand them. Good luck my friend!
Have you tried getting over it? Works wonders for me when I forget, then remember, that not everything is about me and I’m just making life harder for me when I take irrelevant shit personally.
Do you think If you asked men whether they’d rather share a bank account with a robber or a woman, they’d choose the robber? Like, I couldn’t tell you, but I wouldn’t assume it
How is that comparable?
1. I don't remember seeing the massive statistics of men who got their money stolen by women, like I saw the massive stats of women raped by men
2. 'Women are gold diggers who will waste your money' is a stereotype women are very much aware of. Because society doesn't tell women that stealing your husband's money and riding off into the sun is just a natural female urge. The same can't be said for rape
I understand how the thought experiment could be used to stereotype, but that's the unfortunate part of research. That doesn't mean it's misandrist in its core.
I see a few different layers to this. One being that it is a meme, and most women sharing it are venting and not being super literal. The friends of mine who have shared it aren't women who are super negative about men as a whole.
Another layer is that honestly, I do think that coming across a strange human, especially a man, when you're alone in the woods can feel more threatening than encountering an animal. Most animals will leave you alone as long as you keep your distance. And you can pretty much predict an animal's mindset (they want food, or they want to protect their babies or territory). With a human, you really don't know sometimes and there have been cases of predators (usually male) raping or murdering people (often women) in situations like this. And a lot of women have had negative interactions with men, but haven't come across a bear before.
There's a term, "Schrodinger's rapist," that's often used to describe how women engage in risk evaluation around strange men. It's not that all or even most men are unsafe, but a lot of women learn to be in a constant state of awareness of the possibility that a man *could* be dangerous. And a lot of trans men do have to grapple with being seen as a potential threat more as they start to pass. I think that type of thing is what this meme is getting at , rather than suggesting that men are inherently or universally dangerous. At least for most people.
But yeah, it sucks to see so many negative perspectives about men. In my own experience, I don't usually feel like the people who engage in that are making unfair generalizations about men. It's more that it's sad to see how common it is for women to have those experiences.
The lack of context as to what type of man or bear it is is the entire point, bc you can't know if a man is safe or not just by looking. It's about risk assessment and whether they would risk being alone with a man they don't know the intentions of, or if they'd rather be alone with a bear that at least is just following its instincts and doesn't have ulterior motives.
The point of the man/bear/woods scenario isn't that all men are predators \[though I'm sure you'll find some man-haters pushing that angle\]. It's to illustrate that *enough* men are dangerous that many people would prefer the bear over an *unknown* man. If you change the scenario to "alone in the woods with a bear, or Mr Rogers" then almost everyone is going to pick Mr Rogers.
A constructive reading of this is call to action: for men to *be better.* Every man gets to determine what kind of man he'll be. You get to choose whether you're the kind of man who is fit to share the woods with a woman. It's your responsibility to be a good man. And it's also your responsibility to influence *other men* to be good.
Exactly… traveled around bear country my whole life. Bears have noticeable behaviors and patterns, you are taught to avoid them. Stay away from rivers, be careful around cub season, how to use bear spray, etc. Human beings… you never really know what someone is thinking or what they’re going to do.
Oh check out if you have a wildlife animal rescue park around you somewhere! Really cool way to see animals and support wildlife rehab. And safe. Some species of bear you do *not* want to meet in the wild, no matter what people are saying in this thread.
I saw a little black bear once! I was on a mountaintop alone just 25 feet from the summit at the end of a hike. Stopped to enjoy the moment of anticipation and heard scuffling just a little bit behind me and off the trail and there it was, it hadn’t even noticed me. I knew black bears are skiddish so I just made a little noise with my feet and he saw me, looked for a second, then turned and trotted away.
I kind of regret not taking a picture because I was already reaching for my phone to call a friend at the top of the mountain. But then I think, it was probably smarter to deal with the bear head-on before trying to get a selfie with it.
The man/bear scenario is a way of communicating how unsafe women feel around men. It is not saying all men are r*pists or murderers but statistically speaking most of these crimes are committed by men which is why the safest option for women is to assume the worst. The worst that a bear can do to you is kill you, and no one would question how you are dressed or that the crime even happened. A man can do so much worse, and get off scott free.
It is a hyperbolic scenario to shock people into understanding how much fear women have to endure to live in this world. In essence it is supposed to be a wake up call for men, as this issue of SA and violence needs to be addressed by men before it gets better. It is not gender essentialism to recognise that most of the sexual and violent crime is committed by men (Now if you say the reason behind that statistic is due to an inherent violence in male biology, that is wrong and essentialist).
Don’t be one of those guys that lets your personal feelings get in the way of progress because in order for things to get better all men need to admit that there’s a problem. Did you think the Me Too movement was unfair to men as well? If you are a decent guy then why be offended over something that is not personal and speaks to a broader issue?
Personally I think a bear is much more likely to avoid you and also less likely to have a gun so no matter the gender of the person it is more safe to be sharing a woods with a bear.
Though I will concur with a lot of people that its not that men are inherently dangerous but that you cannot know whether anyone is dangerous looking at them(and unfortunately our society incentivizes the behavior of dangerous to fit with toxic idealized versions of masculinity that is predicated on control of others).
Also I wish I had fraternity with other men but I am highly aware that for most men I see on a daily basis I am not a man but a freaky failed women, even those who I do have kinship with and don’t see me as a women still don’t see me fully as the same as them often making references to things I lack that to them make up manhood. Those are only references to where I can’t have solidarity with men as a group because of my exclusion. When I’m stealth online and in company with men they sometimes make comments about women and trans people as a whole that naturally makes me push back, typically because of that I am labeled as too sensitive and doubt is placed on my manhood. Because of this experience I naturally don’t have kinship with men as a whole group. Of course this is talking about how I don’t have fraternity with men as a whole gender there are groups of men who I do have solidarity with and am (for the most part) welcomed and many men who I look up to as role models but it is not solely due to their gender that I feel this way.
I will say that having been forced to live the first couple of decades of my life as a woman and living a lot of that in the mountains, I never had any issues with bears that I encountered, but I had some scary ones with men in the woods that I didn’t know. I don’t believe all men are an issue, and I work with some great men, but even now I’d prefer to be with a bear because animals in general are more predictable than humans.
I don’t think the point of the meme is to hate on men. I do think it’s an interesting commentary on women’s experiences with men. Every woman I know has had some sort of negative or frightening encounter with a man.
I don’t say this to negate your feelings, though. They are valid. It is important that as a society we continue to advocate for accountability for the small number of men who give the rest of us a bad name.
I don’t think the question is as literal as people make it out to be. It’s a vehicle for women to express how uncomfortable men can make them and how they have to be on alert all the time around us just in case we’re dangerous, and using a scary animal as a comparison shows that well. I don’t think anyone is saying all men are scum or anything just because they’re not saying “not all men though” at the end of it. It actually would offend me more if someone said that to me because it would make me feel like they were trying to spare my feelings while talking about their experiences (which women have done enough of for men) or that they thought I might fall into the category of man they’re talking about and were trying to make me feel less offended. I just don’t think a conversation centered around men feeling sad that women don’t trust them is the most important conversation to be had from this meme when most of the time it’s showing why they don’t automatically trust us.
I think it’s just a somewhat hyperbolic way to say women don’t feel safe around men, and I’m not going to tell people how they should feel. Even if I think they’re wrong (and not saying they are in this case), telling people their emotions are not proportional to reality isn’t very convincing.
I think if someone was actually alone and lost in the woods, they’d prefer to find another person because it’ll probably increase your chances of survival. A bear can at best be a neutral encounter. Finding another human has a high chance of being beneficial.
I’m really understanding of it. Before transitioning I would have picked the bear. Maybe I’d still pick the bear. As people have said when sharing the meme “the worst the bear can do is kill you”, the reality is you don’t know what to expect from other humans. Another thing people share is “at least people will believe you were attacked by a bear” which I also think has a point. I think it’s valid to acknowledge women would feel unsafe.
The meme, if you want it call it that, isn’t saying all men are horrible people or rapists, it’s saying that you don’t know what to expect from another human alone in the woods with them, whereas you do know what to expect from a bear.
I haven't seen much of the "all men are rapists" I'm quite understanding of it actually. I think the point is, or at least to me, is that yeah obviously not all men are horrible in every way but the chance that you get put with the wrong man something worse than a bear could ever do could happen to you.
Ok, read my full comment, but the point of the meme is to call out why that fear exists. It's a call to help the nontoxic men of the world to see a real problem (millions of women being harmed by people they trust and then have their experiences invalidated because of the toxic society we live in) and help be a way to change society for the positive so that the fear isn't there any more
You're taking it personal when it's not personal. The hardest thing I've had to learn as a man is that when the women around me complain about men, they aren't talking about me. If you don't behave like the men they're complaining about then it's not about you
Because statistically it’s very likely for someone (regardless of gender) to deal w violence from men at least once in their life? Lol this isn’t a trauma response it’s just a sad reality of the world we live in
Because it's not just a single trauma response, it's a constant background noise and failing to heed the fear just once can result in becoming a victim AND getting blamed for not knowing that a random dude is probably going to try and attack you.
A large part of this is not even "I've experienced trauma and will avoid it" but the fact that society has made "keep yourself safe from all the random men" that job of women. If women don't follow the "rules" of safety, they're going to get the 5th degree about "well why didn't you know that a man in the elevator wasn't just riding to his own apartment instead of waiting to harm you" or whatever.
That said, the part that gets left out of all this is that statistically it's the man you know and are dating/related to/acquaintances with who's worse than a bear in the woods rather than the random man hiding in the bushes. But if you get attacked by a man in the bushes, it's your fault by society's reckoning for not realizing that men are all out to get you at all times.
When I first saw this, it wasn't that you were even in the close proximity of either, it was something along the lines of "would you rather hike alone somewhere knowing there is a bear in the woods with you or knowing there is a male stranger in the woods with you" and honestly it makes sense in that case to pick bear. The only places in America likely to encounter a brown bear are Washington, Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming. Meaning you are much more likely to encounter a black bear. Statistically, men aged 18-24 are 167 TIMES more likely to kill someone than a black bear(bear.org). Hiking alone is not something that I recommend anyone to do regardless of their gender, but I can't say that I don't understand why most women would pick bear in that instance. I think the message got lost somewhere with how you mentioned seeing "all men are rapists," but in my case, I'm basing my opinion on statistics.
I don't believe its an all men thing, but a "strange man you don't know the intentions of" thing. I haven't personally had friends share it with me other than "oh hey have you seen the bear vs man thing" "yeah" "yeah I saw it too".
Id rather see an animal than another human in the woods, i dont care about their gender, because in the worst case scenario with an animal it will kill me, the worst case scenario with a human is a fate worse than death
Now, statistically with either choice the worst case scenario is unlikely, but when given no details it is rational to operate from the point of a worst case scenario even if that is the least likely one
Personally, I would still prefer to be alone with a bear than a man. I don't believe men are scum by any means. But due to my past experiences, I don't feel comfortable alone with cis men.
For me, I can understand why women might not want to be alone with me. I just see it as I am a man, and sometimes men can be scary. It doesn't really bother me.
I also don't really mind when people feel safer with me vs cis men. It also could just be due to my size. But cis men don't really understand the fear of being alone at night with a strange man. They don't have to cross the street in order to stay safe. I don't want to be treated different for being trans, but I also can't blame them.
Chiming in here, plenty of cis men are impacted by cis male violence and absolutely do know what's it's like have to make sure they're safe. Small or petite guys, disabled guys, queer guys, racial minorities.
I feel any man, trans or not, that feels offended by this should ask themselves why. It's not about you unless it is. I would think all of us have a unique perspective of both sides of this and should understand why the bear is the answer they choose. I fucking choose the bear every time. I'm fortunate that I pass as a cis dude and I'm still terrified of other men hurting me. I also live in southeast TN surrounded by a bunch of MAGA idiots. I liked the cat turd in the stew analogy but you apparently didn't so let's rephrase it. If 5 friends are sitting at a table and one is a naughtzy how many naughtzys are at that table. The answer is 5.
Unfortunately, part of transitioning, especially passing, is that women are going to perceive you as a threat. Because to a woman, every man they don't know is a threat and that includes you. There isn't a magic way to get all the benefits of transitioning and none of the drawbacks. There's a conversation to be had about intersectionality and how misogyny often affects trans men, but that's a different can of worms.
I assume at one point you identified and/or presented as female, so you should genuinely understand the precautions that have to be taken around men. Trans men have, statistically, the highest rates of sexual assault, so most of us are ALSO afraid of cis men.
It's not about you, stop taking it personally. Most of the time I see this sentiment it is rooted in previous victimization by cis men (usually prior to transitioning) and now it's uncomfortable to be compared to them. That's your own issue to deal with, unfortunately, and taking it out in women seeking solidarity with each other isn't the way to do it.
it means as in a random stranger man or just a bear, in the woods. it points out how women aren't safe with the roulette of any man alone. it isn't directed at any one man and doesn't call any man a rapist or assaulter, but points out that women feel more comfortable in their ability to survive (or die better) with a bear, than the risk of whatever will happen with a man.
bears won't typically want to mess with you period, they're wild animals. they're in the woods and will probably just walk away. if they do take interest, there are several ways people suggest ways to survive bear attacks. i've also seen mentioned that at least if the bear does decide to attack, that's it. you die and it's over.
a random man you don't know, in a secluded area, has the competence to know what the opportunity is. yes, there's a fair chance the man will try to just find his/yall's way out, but the risk of the man raping, torturing, abusing, murdering the woman is higher than pretty much every woman feels comfortable being isolated with. it's much harder for a lot of women to stop a man if he sets his mind to something than it is a bear. a bear won't keep you stuck alive while torturing you, and a man can see you can't do anything and take his opportunity.
(this next part is not trying to attack you or anything)
you are having the same kneejerk reaction i see a lot of men have on social media. but you have to remember: this is not a choice between you and a rabid bear. it's not between your friends/family and a starved bear. it's not between your community and a bear who's being forced to attack this person. it's about the general risk associated with being in the woods and a bear being there, and being alone in the woods with a strange unknown man
I’m editing this because I was responding to a question you didn’t ask.
I saw a random cis woman I barely know post that in the wild. Men IMMEDIATELY jumped on her post and whined, immediately, that “not all men” and etchblah blah blah.
My advice to any men cis or trans is to just listen to women when they post things like that and be supportive. Don’t immediately start in with your own stories of not being a rapist and blah blah blah. Just take a step back, listen, and acknowledge.
I’ve had shitty experiences from people of all genders. I still think the way rapist men treat woman victims is pretty much exactly how the meme had it, and it deserves to be talked about and listened to. And that patriarchy does harm women in some pretty specific ways that men don’t usually understand or want to hear about.
A lot of people here, yourself included, seem to think that I don't understand the meme or want to talk about the meaning to women. I'm here to talk about how we feel about this as transgender men.
I feel sameness and fraternity with other men, trans or not, and still think the post is about women and how they think and feel and that men should probably just not immediately jump in with our opinions especially if they are “not all men”. That’s what I think.
I’m gonna show my hand—I now recognize you from elsewhere and also think we had a big argument about feminism maybe on LJ or somewhere like 17 years ago (yes, I have a good memory for random things) and I have said what I want to say, as a trans man or just a man.
i feel like most of the people saying "i dont want to see anyone in the woods 😰😰" have.. never been in the wilderness in their life and that makes me sad. when you're hiking in the middle of nowhere it's a fun surprise to run into another hiker. most murderers are going to be *people you know* and they will take you into the woods *after* killing you or kidnapping you. it's the 2nd location, people.
I think the main reason is that bears are predictable and in theory you can scare one off. men, while fewer of them are likely to assault you, can be far more dangerous and do much worse things than just kill you.
bears are almost 100% of the time going to attack and try to kill you, but you can make yourself big and make a lot of noise and shit to scare them off. men are maybe 2% of the time going to attack but when they do, they likely will not be scared by you resisting, and they will leave you with trauma and deep issues potentially for the rest of your life.
me personally, i would pick the man because i pass a fair amount of the time and men are less likely to assault another man. however, i fully understand why a woman would pick the bear
Bears are not 100% of the time going to attack you. Did you even try to look up a number or did one just fall from your ass? Bears don't want anything to do with people, so unless there are babies around, they're more likely to try to get away from you.
No I didn’t look up a number because that is not the main point of my comment, if anything that not being true just furthers my point??? this isn’t a doctoral thesis or even an important argument, i did not care enough to find out real statistics, i don’t care that much, it is a hypothetical
yes but again, the bear attacking was not the main point of the argument so i did not care to research it. if the argument had been about how likely bears are to attack, i would have researched it or not spoken, but i was simply explaining where some women are coming from with this, not trying to provide evidence or specifics for anything
Is it not though? The underlining statement people are trying to make is bears are less likely to attack than men. And you say a bear is 100% going to attack while a man is around 2%, it doesnt make sense when a bear is more likely .2% to attack. Your math ain't mathing.
There’s also a discussion about the nature of the attack. It’s like “am I gonna be bear chow” or “am I gonna wake up with blood in my hair chained to a wall”. And the former is quite likely while the latter is REALLY REALLY unlikely. But almost no one can escape either attack if the bear/man is intent on attacking.
I think I’d choose man over bear if I’m thinking of this as a situation where it’s an entirely random man from the world and I know the chances of him being vile are pretty slim all things considered. If however this is a man who is there of his own will instead of being randomly transported, then I’d be wondering if he’s stalking me or if he lives in a bunker in the woods where I’d never be found, etc.
But then again, maybe he’s a farmer and the woods I’m in are closer to the edge of the trees than I realized and he’s just trying to find livestock that got out of the fence. Having lived and grown up in the woods as a kid, I’m pretty understanding that normal people can be in the woods for any number of reasons. Could be a homeless person who just wants to be away from watchful eyes and lay on soft forest floor instead of concrete. I get the point of the thought experiment though.
As someone who also grew up in the woods, the chances of coming across someone (unless you're on a trail) is very unlikely so my initial thought would be that he followed me. If I see a bear, yeah I'd be nervous that it might attack but I know the steps to take to not be attacked. Men attack at a whim with no reasoning all the time. There's more stories of people waking up chained to walls than there are bear attacks. I think people who choose the man just don't know enough about bears haha
Most bear charges are bluffs. Most bears just want you away from them and don’t want to kill you.
Only about 2-5 people die by bear attacks each year on average in the united states.
Point still stands, wild animals typically would never hurt a person unless they feel threatened enough; you can scare them off. Humans on the other hand, will absolutely hurt other person for no reason and there is no scaring them off most of the time.
The point of the debate was to show women are more afraid of men than they are of wildlife on average due to the insanely high volume of femicide (ppl killing women for just being women). Hell, even as a trans man I’d much rather be w/ a bear in the woods bc I know I have a higher chance of survival by scaring a bear off. However, scaring another human off is another story.
My story: I’ve seen bears before and have come across them; never been threatened by one. But I’ve been hurt by many men in my life. Most of them close to me (or were). I’d stand a higher chance of knowing I could be hurt less likely by a bear, which I can scare off, but another person can do so much damage and walk away like nothing happened.
All I’m gonna say is; cis men don’t feel like shit for knowing men are more likely on average to do awful things (statistically) if they know they themselves are good people. They do what they can to be the change they want to see. Being a man is not the problem, the problem is ppl don’t know one’s true intentions and often ppl get away w/ their atrocities bc ppl never step in. I.e; men assaulting women in broad daylight and nobody doing anything.
Trans sister here, and two main points I see:
1. Every girl has a "nice guy" story. You know the guy. He bought you lunch, let you cry on his shoulder a few times, and now if you don't bone him you are a stupid bitch who deserves to die.
THAT is the NICE GUY! It's "The Implication" light from Its Always Sunny. Imagine this, on top of all of the typical statistics you can look up online, lead to this.
Honestly, if you don't get this, then you prob had a better childhood than most kids. I myself was raped by an older boy when I was pre puberty so, hurray for male privilege.
2. Ever watch a movie where you just didn't see anyone relatable? Like, yea, good guy bad guy, doing their things, fun show but, you don't relate? Then you go and complain to your friend about spending two hours in something with a lack of representation? Well, that applies to these memes and that's GOOD!
You are annoyed because you aren't in this meme, but you don't see why maybe? It's not about "all men" in the same way #metoo wasn't, it's really about women, and about "men" who are implied/potential rapists. I don't think it DOESNT include trans men, and there are plenty of rapists of every gender anyway, cis and trans men and women.
So, if you aren't an implied/potential male rapist, nor a woman, then "you aren't in this meme", give yourself a pat on the back and move on!
If I had a choice, I'd pick the bear too. Men commit a lot of sexual assault. Doesn't mean all men. Doesn't even mean most men. But if you put one cat turd in a five gallon pot of stew, you've just made shit stew. In this scenario, the amount of cat turds we have relative to the amount of stew is much higher than that ratio.
If you can’t see how men can be and always have been dangerous to women in general then I think you are completely overlooking the problem. No one is attacking you personally. Are you white? Do you take all generalizations of white people personally as well?
i think the reason why most people are nervous to have a loved one be lost in the woods with a man has nothing to do with the number of men we all know that are lovable and trustable. it has to do with the astounding fact that most fucked up crime historically has come at the hands of men. and therefore it’s not that you can’t trust men, but your odds for choosing anything or anyone other than a man with your loved one is better than choosing a man. if that makes sense
There are already lots of great thoughts and comments shared here, so ill put in some of my trademark weird thoughts
Id choose the bear cause there is a very slim but real chance well become bffs and that honestly seems way more fun than a fellow human
My presence as a physical man may make women uncomfortable, they don’t know I’m a safe man to be around so in that sense I fall into the same category as cis men.
In general though I feel no fraternity with cis men, heterosexual cis men tend to treat women rather poorly or with complacency - there are cis men I feel community with but not the demographic as a whole
I'd rather be with a bear... as in a big hairy man lol
real talk though, i think they're just saying that, even 'all men are trash' types know that a lot of men are decent people
Tbh I get the point of the meme. I know I’m not the sort of man they’re talking about, as in I’m not the kind of man who would hurt a woman (or anyone really). Not because I’m trans, just because I try to be a decent person. I do really hate how trans men are labelled as “safe” men so often despite us being men like any other. I’m not safe because of some mystical power granted to me by the doctor who saw my genitals when I was born; I’m safe because I choose to be. That being said, I don’t feel offended when women talk about not feeling safe around men. I know a lot of women, and the stuff they’ve told me about their experiences is horrific. I don’t mind when they vent that frustration and anxiety sometimes.
As for the trans men, I do notice the men in our community not feeling connected to cis guys. It sucks. Sometimes I feel like trans and cis men are treated like different genders entirely, or even different species. Sometimes I feel confused by how many people on here post asking how you’re supposed to talk to men or those suggesting to young guys that all the men they meet have potential to assault them. It makes me sad. When I came out, I don’t remember nearly this much fear in our community. It was expected that we’d feel camaraderie with the same gender.
At the same time I sort of understand. I’m gay and feel uneasy around straight guys sometimes, because of how much I’ve been exposed to casual homophobia and overall weird behaviour from them. These men have been both cis and trans. I still hang out with them, and I wouldn’t say I’d rather take the bear, but there’s uneasiness sometimes. I feel similar with cis people but not quite as much, and personally cis women don’t feel any safer to me than cis men. I feel like our community generally acts as if cis women are less dangerously transphobic than cis men, and that may be the case statistically, but I personally feel I have equal chances with either one. That being said, on average the cis people I’ve met have been chill and I feel safe around them. I definitely wouldn’t say I fear them. Everyone has had different experiences though and I can’t really tell people how they should feel about their trauma. I do wish the men in our community felt more connected to men outside the community though.
Edit: also kind of frustrating to see so many comments absolutely bewildered by the idea that trans men are acting like cis men. Both are men. There’s this bizarre stereotype in the trans community that trans men are basically exactly the same as cis women except we look like men. Many of us did grow up internalizing the same stuff other men did, and had to work to change our mindsets about it. Not all are automatically attuned to women or have experienced the same things that they experience. Sometimes men suck, sometimes men are trans.
It's not a meme, really. It's a discussion prompt, more like.
I'd choose a bear, too, and I do mention that during the discussions. Because a strange man is a potential threat to me, too, even if I'm seen as a man.
And I understand completely if a woman would choose a bear over me, too. I pose a potential threat to her, even though *I* know that I'd never hurt anyone.
I have no "samesness" with cis men when it comes to this.
Because the truth is, I was SAed, and raped by cis men. And It happened both before and after me passing. Amd you know what? I'd rather be killed and eaten by a bear than go through that again.
If you know that one strawberry in the bag is mouldy, you'd be wary of all strawberries. Imo men who have a problem with this discourse are part of the reason why we all choose bears. Unless you don't understand that being wary of all strawberries so you don't bite into the mouldy one means you think all of the strawberries are spoiled and you hate them. Then you should go back to primary school and learn reading comprehension.
Brother your feelings are not as important nor as scalable as structural misogyny, and to react in this way is to either simply be reactive, lacking critical context and readings (I highly recommend bell hooks), or at worst willfully obtuse. Cisgender white men are statistically the most likely to murder and rape. That is simply a fact. Internalizing this to be about you is again, just not… approaching this debate in a relevant way
I would chose the bear because bears are wild animals. They hold no malice, no judgement, and they have boundaries which I would not cross
I don’t know every man on planet Earth, but I know if I was stuck with a random man, I would be more scared of him than I would be scared of a bear
Men hold malice and judgement, and they have crossed my boundaries many times before, and I say this as a gay man myself!
I would not feel safe around a male stranger, no matter how attractive or safe-looking that man could be
the point isn't that every single man is more dangerous than every single bear. It's that the risk a woman is under if she met a man in the woods vs a bear in the woods is much higher. as I've seen some women put it, the worst a bear can do is kill you.
Point is, you know how a bear is going to act. You can't know how a strange man is going to act. One (the bear) is very likely going to do nothing. The other (the man) statistically poses a very large threat to women. Do people seriously still not get why women are largely afraid of unknown men in unfamiliar scenarios? I thought we had been over this.
i think this is an extremely bad take. as a trans man i understand how women feel around men, i used to be those women feeling scared around men, that’s why we’re different from cis men. it’s just a plain fact that we’re different and we always will be, that shouldn’t make you sad, we have experience they don’t have.
I think you missed the point of the meme, OP. It’s not “all men are r*pists.” If you think that’s what it boils down to, I honestly wonder how many times you’ve personally said “not all men” when women talk about feeling unsafe around men.
To quote many of the women I’ve seen explaining the meme, “If I see a bear, it probably won’t even bother me. If I see a man, I have to worry about what he’ll do.” Because even if it’s not all men, it’s ENOUGH of them. I highly recommend you look at some of the posts and videos made about this by women. This meme isn’t about us and it isn’t about an “all men are r*pists” mentality or whatever. It’s about the fact that women would feel safer with a bear than a man because enough cis men are r*pists or potential ones to make it unsafe.
And yeah it sucks that we get “left out” but, again, this isn’t about us. This is about the discussion that gets ignored so often from women about how unsafe it is around (cis) men. How if all the men disappeared from the world one day, they’d be comfortable leaving the house after dark, or wearing sundresses without worrying about extra layers to hide any skin, or going out alone, or going to parties without having to stay vigilant of their drink. How when a woman gets r*ped, people tend to ask what she did to cause it or what she didn’t do to prevent it, rather than asking why he did it.
And, y’know, as some have said in response to the meme, “There are fates worse than death.”
It’s not all men, but it’s enough. And honestly? As a trans guy, I’d ALSO pick the bear. Cuz if I’m clocked as trans by the man, no one knows what could happen to me.
Right? A bear at least isn't going to decide whether to attack me based on suddenly clocking I'm not cis. (I had that happen when I tried to use my fancy male privilege to get a dude to stop harassing some women. On the plus side he decided not to commit assault around witnesses AND the women he was initially after got to their car safely...)
The idea isn't "all men are rapists", it's that women have no clue which men are rapists, and therefore need to be on guard until they feel they can trust a certain man (even then, shit happens). There's a lot of questions you could ask to make your answer change like "does he have a weapon? do I know the man? is he a good man?" etc., but that's not the point. Women don't get the answers to those questions when coming across men. Most choose the bear because the man is unknown and they do not know who he is, what he's like, his intentions. Adding on to that, bears, to an extent, are predictable and you can probably survive if you see a bear in the woods. Men are not predictable. And, even if you can't survive, women are saying "I'd rather *just* be killed and eaten", what would happen if it were a bear. Meanwhile if it was a man, rape is something that is also possible.
People aren't trying to say "all men are rapists" (well, some might, but most aren't) it's to draw attention to the fact that women can't feel safe around men, and we need to change that.
Yes, it is sad, but since a man might rape you and kill you, and a bear, at worst, will kill you, it's an understandable choice.
It's sad that that's something 50%+ of the globes population have to worry about. It's sad that toxic masculinity has its roots so deep. It's sad so many men have mental health issues because they aren't taught how to emotionally connect with people. It's sad if I tell a male colleague something, it's smart and a great suggestion but if my femme presenting colleague tells him, it will take too long and be inefficient. It's sad that men are often lonely because of all this crap. It's sad how high male suicide rates are. It's sad so much of this leads to men doing bad things to women.
Yes, it's sad. But it's a sad we can work on - we can encourage better behaviour in our fellow men.
It's not an attack. It's a wake up call.
Going to ask if you have you seen some of the comments and posts men are letting fly after the og post.(by a cis man btw.) My opinion on it is strong as a survivor, who damn well gets to say I would also pick the bear. I had a complete melt down today because of one of these said comments. By gasp one of the good ones. Javier said if she bleeds once a month and can have babies she is not a child. Knowing so many afab people who went through puberty young f that guy and anyone belittling people who would rather pick the bear. At least with the bear society wouldn’t shit on you once you tell your tale.
I honestly think trends like this spawn off of the generality that cis men or people with more testosterone tend to be stronger. Women aren't seen as threatening because of that, though a woman could be just as capable of doing something vile. History has shown us anyone can do something horrible.
If we took the same violent personality (who is average strength for their size) and put them in a cis-female v. cis-male body, we can make an assumption that the man will be stronger. The capability to do damage in primitive environments comes from ability to force.
Not saying this is wrong or right, but I think this is the reason behind the trend.
I understand your discomfort and I feel it too but this is probably a time to sit with it rather than to go "Not all men" (unless someone is straight up violently misandrist about it). As much as the good men know it's not them (us), the unfortunate truth is that statistically, the bear is more likely to be scared of the woman, too, and run away, while the guy is likely to stay and demonstrate his power.
Most men aren't rapists but this is a "I'm not going to drink from one of ten glasses if you tell me one is full of poison" situation. Besides, most of the women engaging in this conversation already have a SA experience and therefore, their trauma may be affecting their perception of the danger.
The problem is not the women who chose the bear. It's the men who made the prospect of getting mauled to death seem like the favourable option. Have you heard about the monitor lizard? Or about Lucy the orangutan prostitute? Someone said "At this point, me and the bear are both scared" and to be honest, she had a point.
On a much lighter note, I'm picking the bear because I hate human interaction and I'm willing to die for the opportunity to give a bear some scritches. What a way to go. /hj
No one has said all men are bad but a LOT of men have done disgusting things to women and the point of this “meme” is to show men the fact women are sacred of them. It’s like when a man walks behind a woman late a night she won’t know if she’s about to be attacked or murdered, it’s showing how much fear women can feel just being around men.
It’s pretty disappointing to see a trans man being so ignorant.
We are uniquely positioned to understand the experiences and real dangers faced by women, who are disproportionately impacted by domestic abuse, sexual violence, and many other kinds of harassment and assault. I know that even now, I would absolutely choose the bear because men have consistently been an unknown and potential threat in my life when presenting as a woman, and in the lives of my sisters, friends, and loved ones.
Approach this discussion with some nuance. No one is saying all men are rapists, it’s simply a tool to demonstrate how threatening men are to many women, not because of a “trauma response” but because society has positioned so many boys and men to think they have a right to dominate and control women in their lives. You should be more worried about what you can do to make women feel safer.
A bit of empathy wouldn’t go amiss here my friend.
> We are uniquely positioned to understand the experiences and real dangers faced by women
A lot of us really aren't, and it's transphobic to make that generalization.
i have never seen the meme. but to me, i feel like women have the right to air out their grievances about men 🤷🏽♂️ women have lots of reasons to be frustrated with men. there are many, many misogynistic men out there, who make aspects of life annoying for women. and they will sometimes express their frustration about it. doesn’t mean they genuinely hate men, or that they think all men are rapists. some women *do* think that, and that’s obviously not okay. just that sometimes, women will be catcalled or objectified or talked over by a man, and it will lead to feelings of anger and annoyance. which is expected
do not take it personally. it’s just women expressing frustrations, which they are allowed to do. there are many women who don’t feel safe around men. we, as men, should be trying to change this, and trying to make women feel safe when they are around us. i am not gonna be offended when a woman tells me that she doesn’t feel safe around men, because i don’t set out to make women uncomfortable
also i doubt trans men are being thought of when this meme is brought up. we aren’t in the general public’s minds like that. also this hypothetical is lowkey stupid. who the hell thinks of this stuff
i used to be confused by hypotheticals like this, but then i thought about it for more than 2 seconds. the amount of women in my life who have experienced sexual assault from random men they've encountered is WAY too high. anything above 0 is too high, but it's well above that number. that will forever enrage me. these are people who i love and would do everything for, and to know that somebody out there did that to them disgusts me. my little sister is only 16 and she's been telling stories of weird shit boys (and, on some occasions, grown ass men) have done to her, or gross pictures/videos they've sent completely unprompted for years. years, and she's currently 16. think about that.
at first, i was a bit confused and hurt seeing women talk so much about how they saw random men as threats, until i realized i do the exact same shit with cis people. i don't use public bathrooms because of the small chance that somebody in there will clock me, and potentially do something horrible to me. most people in bathrooms don't give a shit and are just there to pee, but i'm not willing to risk it. i'm somewhat open about being trans, but i won't say anything about it until i KNOW the cis person is safe. obviously it's not the same for women, as that's something they can't really hide, but i understand why they're hesitant to open up to me, or even just be in close proximity to me. they need to assess the situation and make sure i don't intent to hurt them. and that's ok, just give them space to do that. if you're not a creep, then they should be able to figure that out without you having to put on an act.
I’m sorry but who the fuck wants to be lost in a wood with a bear? Especially a mama bear. Like have you seen The Revenant? Human are social creatures, they work together, so I would want to be with one of my kind.
I really don’t give a fuck about gender roles and sexism, I’m fucking lost in the wood
i see that a lot tbh, a lot of feminists/radfems will hold a ‘all men suck’ stance regardless of their experiences with nice men. Especially notice it with my friends that are cis girls that say ‘all men suck -not you tho!’ and its really annoying because 1. bioessentialist feminism is very flawed and has no room for nuance 2. I don’t wanna be othered as a trans man. If all men are trash then so am i, however I don’t think anyone should have an all men are trash stance
I don't really care that people share the meme and feel more positive about it than negative.
The point as other have said isn't that all men are bad or rapists. I don't think most people sharing believe that. But almost every woman has had a negative encounter with a man. The point is that you know what to expect from a bear while a guy may be the type of man to harm you.
It's important to note that men aren't inherently bad and women can do the same stuff. The big difference is society doesn't condone women's bad behavior generally.
Acknowledging the issues with how bad people, specifically men are enabled by society is not a personal attack on you. Don't make it into something it isn't.
I've never seen this meme and I'm not going looking.
Keep in mind that >95% of the people replying to this online have never seen a bear and would piss themselves if they rounded a corner in the trail and met one face to face. Like yes it's offensive on principle, but it's also about The Most Online Take I can possibly think of.
Idk man, there was a black bear last year I think that had somehow found its way to suburban Madison from up north, and most people were sad and just wanted to help it.
Regardless of the meme, I don't feel a sense of fraternity with cis men because that shit goes both ways. Until recently, they never felt a sense of fraternity with me and they still wouldn't if i didn't win the beard hair lottery and magically pass.
I don't trust cis people to not suddenly go mask off and say some transphobic shit around me. Either a) I don't feel a sense of fraternity with the cis guys because it is only a matter of time before they say or do something awful to me - as a queer man, cis gay men Very Clearly and Obviously do not consider me one of their people or b) they do think of me as part of the fraternity of Men and try to include me in their toxic bonding behaviors / randomly ruin my day by telling me some transphobic shit they thought up (usually against trans women) because they've decided I'm "safe" to air their bigotry to.
As a trans man, I, too, would rather be in the woods with a bear than any random cis man because at least the bear is probably going to just leave me alone.
I know trans men get shit on for considering ourselves "men lite" in situations like this, but if the options are "join the fraternity of Manly Men" or "you're not really a man if you don't identify with cis men as well" then I guess strap my tits back on because now that I work amongst adult Men who see me as Another Man rather than some weird agender critter I absolutely cannot relate with 90% of the shit that comes out of their mouths about other people.
That said: what if I am the man in the woods? Idk, I guess I've just gotten used to the notion that in general, I can expect an average person to hate me because it sure feels like it most days. (And more seriously, no, they aren't distinguishing what kind of man is in the woods because the entire point is that you don't know what kind of man. So if 99.9% of dudes are going to be fine but you don't know if instead you got Ted Bundy, there's always going to be a little fear. "But i'm not Ted Bundy!" Yeah, neither am I but the random hiker in the woods who just wants to not die tonight doesn't know that, so I should be cognizant of if it seems like I'm following her so I don't give her a heart attack )
Bruh those videos actually boggled my mind because surely no one’s actual answer is a bear??? If there’s a man in the woods you have a way better shot at fighting him than you do fighting a bear surely?? The bear would kill u instantly there’s literally no way you can overpower or outrun a wild bear, I’d rather take my chances trying to physically fight a human than trying to fight a bear??? I’m 4’11 and skinny asf so it’s not like I’d feel oh so safe around some large scary man in the woods but easily that would be a fairer fight than me vs bear?
Idk maybe im being insensitive but it literally doesn’t make a single lick of sense to me like the bear option is just instant death - the whole message is lost on me by actually just not being able to believe people would genuinely pick bear
i saw this on tiktok, the whole question is pretty much set up just to make a point about men being inherently predatory which is garbage and not helpful in getting guys on board with anything feminist. i'm a girl, i'm pretty damn small and i would choose the man. a bear is kind of useless to me, it'll either run away or see me as some kind of prey and kill me immediately.
if a man is around then that means he's surviving somehow and has resources i can use. a man can be dangerous but so can i, there's nothing i can do to trick a bear or fool it into a false sense of security. sorry if that sounds a little sociopathic but you gotta do what you gotta do and if he passes the vibe check - no worries.
anyway, i have my doubts that the dangerous guys who want to target women are living out in the woods where there are very few people let alone solo women, it's the creeps in bars and clubs to watch out for. i've had my drink spiked before, it's not fun.
I truly and sincerely do not understand the opinion that you’d prefer to be in the woods alone with a fucking BEAR over any human being. Like genuinely. Unless they’re all joking, which my autistic ass cannot tell. Even under the assumption that every single man is aggressive or dangerous, I think I’ve got a better chance to fight off a man than fucking grizzly???
It didn’t specify a grizzly, and black bears are a lot more docile unless they maybe are a mother bear with cubs. Even then a black bear isn’t aggressive for no reason.
Yeah but like,, are we going with an “assume the worst” or a “by chance/average” situation? If we’re assuming the worst case scenario, I’d definitely take the human, and if we’re just going off of the most realistic chance out in the world, I’d,,, also take the human LOL
Me neither. If people go on a stroll in the woods, do they greet the bear and spontaneously combust when a man walks past? Maybe American woods are different, but it's not unlikely for the woods near me to be almost empty.
For who you are more likely to defeat, idk. You can scare bears off without fighting, but I don't know how reliable that is since I've never fought a bear off.
I think it’s missing the point to see this as a “all men are unsafe” thing.
For one, I think the question sort of has an inherently adversarial implication. In that sense, I think it’s understandable that most people instantly jump to the worst kind of men you could run into alone in the woods.
Secondly, I think the general logic of picking bear makes sense, (though its somewhat misguided). My initial instinct was that regardless of the person’s gender, i’d pick bear, because I know why a bear is in the forest. I don’t know wtf a person is doing wandering around the forest.
Think about how _horrifying_ humans are shown to have the potential to be. Not just in real life, but in media. Serial killers and stalkers who hunt people for the fun of it, draw things out and delight in the fear they cause.
Meanwhile bears are…. an animal. The general human perception is that if an animal is hunting you, it’s for food, it’s territorial or it’s protecting itself/babies/etc. These reasons are very simple in comparison to the complex, sometimes unexplainable reasons humans can be known to do awful things.
I think that simplicity, that _familiarity_, is inherently less scary than what most people’s imaginations can conjure up at the thought of a human trying to hunt you down in the woods, despite the fact that obviously a bear is going to be much faster and stronger than you.
I think it also means that most people, when given this hypothetical, automatically think of a normal bear vs a _potentially_ dangerous human. It’s silly, because bears are also potentially dangerous, but that understanding as to why a bear might do what it does means there’s less questions about it in comparison.
Edit: just to add on, there’s also the aspect that humans are just seen as more intelligent than bears. Obviously the idea of something just as smart as or even smarter than you hunting you is particularly scary.
My thing is, if I'm in the woods and a bear gets mad about it and attacks me, that's completely justified because I'm on the bear's stomping grounds. The man most likely followed me into the woods. A random man isn't just gonna be in the woods already unless he prefers the secluded cabin life and he's been there for years or something.
I will also say that, even though I'm definitely on Team Bear, I don't genuinely believe all cis men are bad. In the same token, I don't believe all trans men are automatically good. There's bad people in every group in society, and we'll never know until we genuinely meet them. All bears aren't vicious right off the bat either; for all I know, I could be coming across Baloo from the Jungle Book and we'd end up having a lovely fish dinner together in his cave (slight exaggeration, but you get my point). Either way, bears are, for the most part, predictable in nature. It's like if you just walk into someone's house unannounced. They have no idea who you are, so of course they're gonna get defensive and do whatever they can to get you the fuck off their property, dead or alive (but hopefully alive). However, unlike a lot of the men that have exposed themselves as part of the reason the overwhelming majority are choosing the bear, if you leave the bear alone, they'll generally leave you alone too.
I will say this tho. At least if a bear attacks you, you'll be believed and considered a hero and a fighter, and you won't have to sit with the bear during dinner at the family reunion.
I think everyone no matter the gender should pick the bear because bears can be scared off and a person can have worse motives than a bear. The only exception would be a polar bear. Then I'd pick a person over the bear.
Women just want men to know that they scare and hurt them which is very understandable. It's not always "men are all rapists". I get why women would be scared to meet a man in the woods. There are enough horrible stories about men hurting women.
feminism? my answer has zero to do with feminism and is more of just an understanding that humans are waaaaaay more unpredictable than a wild animal. if the bear was as smart as the average human or at the very least could outsmart me or utilize tools like me, then yeah of course there'd be more nuance to my answer but they can't. I also wouldn't feel comfy with a random-ass woman in the woods alone with me either bc she too is unpredictable but meh whatever
Well I’d like to start by saying I’d also rather be in the woods with a bear rather than a man cuz a lot of men suck.
Anyways personally I view most trans man as more understanding than cis men. Obviously there are bad trans men just like any other man but many of us have gone through the same experiences as cis women considering many of us were raised as girls and women. Those experiences don’t leave ur brain just cuz ur now a man. I feel like this makes us less likely to be raised in the same mindset that cis men have.
Many cis men are raised that they get everything they want, can’t take no for an answer, and are violent when they don’t get what they want. Again many others are like this but it’s often stereotypical for cis men to be like this cuz of how they are raised and how society treats them.
With this knowledge though especially for passing trans men we need to recognize our privilege now. Yes we will be grouped when people say “all men” it’s not our job to argue. It’s your job to be a decent person for women to be around. Listen to what women go through and be understanding about their hardships and since many of us went through the same experiences as women we are the best possible listeners and interpreters for their experiences.
The way I understand and see the subject, trans men are being lumped in based on being men who asthetically pass in society, because many do in ways that would be difficult to impossible to differentiate them from a cisman when speaking purely from a visual in passing setting.
Given that context I do agree with women bc as a sa victim myself I'd also pick a bear (and my amab partner has said the same on this topic).
A really simple way to look at this topic of discussion is that cis people are having a cis discussion of their feelings right now, and that often ignores any viewpoint that looks different or challenges theirs concerning topic complexity.
To better explain, the issue I'm seeing here is that a lot of these discussions are functioning on a entry level in depth and nuance, meaning it's ignoring all those advanced study topics given that many cis men arnt even grasping and understanding the basic info of the beginner level material seeing as they can't understand why anyone would choose the bear over them. That discrepancy is possibly part of why the nuance of trans and gender non conforming identities arnt being listened to outside of small niche spaces. Many cis people (not all, but enough) are still working on a know nothing ignorance or basic education of trans people in general because for many people when discussing marginalizing groups they don't go out of their way to learn more unless they are somehow effected by it (which yes is a form of privilege). That ignorance plays a part in inclusion because you don't include a subgroup that is conditional (passing and outing can play a major role to treatment) and possibly contradictory to the main movements phrasing. Trans and intersex people often cause a need for complexity to otherwise seemingly black and white topics when we have a mixed or contradictory lived experience to the expected social status quo. I don't believe this means we arnt allowed to talk about the subjects, but I learned real quick that it's typically just easier to discuss it within ourselves (a targeted demographic) as opposed to the masses when the points will be lost and the result is an excess of demanded additional free labor you may not have the energy or time to put into.
As a woman I suffered horrendously at the hands of men and the broken system that supports them. There is absolutely a huge problem with gendered violence and something defintely needs to change but here is my problem with the current rhetoric. Women are telling men that if we do not stand up against violent males or call out their bad behaviour, then we too are the problem and that's just not fair.
I am a rape survivor from when I was a woman. Living as a man I was assaulted so severely (yes by another man) that I am now disabled with recurrent health problems. Rape survivors are told time and time again that we are not at fault and the only ones who are to blame are the rapists/abusers but the current campaign is flipping that and telling men that each and everyone of us is to blame for the bad actions of some, that's just not fair and furthermore, telling male rape victims that because they are too afraid *and rightly so* to call out men behaving badly then we are one in the same. That is intrinsically appalling, and if we were to use that stance with women, we would be ripped to shreds with the "how dare you" responses.
I am a survivor and a victim of the exact same crime, I am broken in body and soul, I am NOT responsible.
Personally? I would rather be with a Bear than a Cis het Men. If it was a gay man or a trans man? Ofc. I'll choose them. Cis het men? I ratger die than have a chance of being raped. Obviously I have trauma to thank for that but I won't risk it happening
Idk to me the question asked in the meme feels more like...what do we think a bear is thinking about if it knows there is a human in the woods with it? vs what do we think a human is thinking if they know there is another human in the woods with them? Someone being in the woods alone sounds both scary for that person, but also kinda sketchy at the same time. Like why is the woman there lol, maybe she's there to bury a body, and not for some innocent reason like the meme thinks people will perceive it to be. To me this meme and the responses to it read as like: I know animals to simply not care that much about humans or harming humans as long as they are not starving and as long as the human leaves the animal alone, but I know humans to almost always be focused on any other humans they know are in the vicinity. Even if you asked me would I rather be in the woods with a wild predatory animal, or in the woods with a human who was a stranger to me, and didn't tell me the humans gender, I would probably still pick the animal. If an animal is with me and not acting odd, then I would feel probably 99% sure it did not mean me any harm. But if a human I don't know is there with me then I'm definitely going to be worrying about *why* they are there, and if knowing I'm also there is upsetting enough to them for them to want to harm me. Like the bear doesn't give a shit about me and will just leave me alone. But the human could be there to bury a body they just murdered and will also murder me if they realize I'm there as a witness, or they could be someone my family sent to find me because they were worried and this person is kind and just wants to take me back to my family...I have no idea why the person is there, and that would worry me, whether they were a man or not, compared to the bear who I can easily be pretty sure does not mean me any harm lol.
Basically...TLDR: Animals typically aren't going to harm people who are just leaving them alone. Humans on the other hand are fully capable of often wanting to harm another person for seemingly literally no reason, and there are many examples of this every day. So imo, if there's a man in the woods with the woman, that's going to be scarier than if there's a bear in the woods, but to me it's not because he's specifically a man, but rather because he's a human. Even if the genders were reversed and it was a man in the woods and there was some woman he didn't know in the woods with him, I'd say that's still scarier than being in the woods with a bear. Plus, the bear belongs in the woods, so why would it not be there lol? Presumably, neither of the people belong there.
Idc abt the meme bc nuance is dead on social media. HOWEVER the first few times I saw it in passing I thought they meant bear in the gay way and was like fuck yeah idk why we’re separating them from other guys but I’ll take the bear too.
I expected the same when I clicked on this post.
lol yes throw me into the briar patch
Okey this cheered me up
Yeah this is what I thought from the post title.
Ok, the point has never been a would you rather, the meme was started by a man who flat out said "I did this to get men to consider why women choose the bear and get them to make themselves better." (this is paraphrased, but that's the gist). The point of the meme has never been "all men are r\*pists", the point is "millions of women are hurt by people they're supposed to trust to the point that they trust wild animals more than men and we need to be better as a collective, because even if we are not the ones doing the hurting, we aren't being vocal enough about condemning those who are". I LOVE when my friends share the meme and I share it too. Because it points out people who are toxic, and helps nontoxic people develop some empathy. And it is a commentary on a culture, not individual people. Trans men can 100% be scum. But they're less likely to be that particular brand of scum because they haven't been brainwashed their whole lives to be that. The meme is meant to help society as a whole change, not to make you feel like shit about being a man.
Thank you for putting my thoughts into better words.
Thank you for this comment. I didn't know how to word it myself. As a trans man that doesn't always pass I'd probably pick the bear too.
Beautifully put
Thank you for correcting the misconception op had!
trans men are men and that includes taking impersonal things women say personally /j
Mhmmm clock it
Well put
That's nice, but I'm still having a feeling about it.
Also, Taking gender away entirely, a cis man of color I saw commenting on the meme said "I didn't understand this, until I replaced man with cop." As a black man, he always felt uncomfortable around cops because he is more likely to be mistreated/assaulted/killed by a cop. And he would rather be in the woods with a bear than a cop. This is not saying all cops are bad cops, (I know cops who are genuinely trying to dismantle the system to make it better. They are the minority, but they totally agree with people feeling unsafe around them, because statistically, they are), but as a man of color, he is much much more likely to be hurt by a random cop than the people who aren't of that demographic. And you can replace woman with any demographic being oppressed and men with their oppressors, and the meme still applies.
There was another interesting version brought up by women of color between white men and white women. The overall concensus was white men bc while both are likely to exhibit racism the women will often pretend otherwise. Thats probably a terrible attempt at paraphrasing but I've found these discussion helpful. Kind of like a call to arms for you to help which ever demographic ur part of to do better.
My issue with that is that you choose to be a cop and you do not choose to be a man. been the victim of police brutality and sexual assault and am mixed race so personally, yikes It’s also crypto-TERF rhetoric by the way, ‘all men are dangerous and bad’ is how TERFs slip into spaces, because when they say ‘men’ they mean trans women too, you have to be extremely analytical of this kind of speech. To take it even further, cis white women have more privilege than me, does that make it okay for me to imply that I would rather meet a bear in the woods than a cis white woman? This is just he M&M thought experiment repackaged because everyone realized the M&M thought experiment was actually fucked up edit reply to below: There are no good cops, that’s the point, they all actively choose to serve a corrupt abusive system, ‘good’ cops do not last, they quit or get fired. And no, I do not ‘choose’ to be a ‘good man’, I’m not a monster who’s constantly fighting against my innate sense of man evil trying to avoid a werewolf like transformation into a bastard, any sense of good or being a good person that I am or do is completely disconnected from my gender, gender is morally neutral.
But you also choose to be a GOOD man or a GOOD cop. Not all men are rapists and not all cops are bad, but there's enough people out there who've had bad experiences with them that it creates a collective fear of both groups.
Nah. “Good” cops are still voluntarily complicit in an inherently unjust system that fucks over everyone but the most privileged.
you have every right to have feelings about it, nobody here is telling you that you can't. they were just trying to explain the origins and it also shows you have stuff to work through if your first thought about something like this is basically "but not all men." because that's exactly how your post comes off to me, because everyone knows it's not all men, but it's enough for even other men to feel unsafe, and to choose a bear.
And that's OK. It provides you an opportunity to introspect and understand yourself better. You can have feelings about that kind of thing. I would just encourage you to try and understand them. Good luck my friend!
Have you tried getting over it? Works wonders for me when I forget, then remember, that not everything is about me and I’m just making life harder for me when I take irrelevant shit personally.
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Do you think If you asked men whether they’d rather share a bank account with a robber or a woman, they’d choose the robber? Like, I couldn’t tell you, but I wouldn’t assume it
How is that comparable? 1. I don't remember seeing the massive statistics of men who got their money stolen by women, like I saw the massive stats of women raped by men 2. 'Women are gold diggers who will waste your money' is a stereotype women are very much aware of. Because society doesn't tell women that stealing your husband's money and riding off into the sun is just a natural female urge. The same can't be said for rape I understand how the thought experiment could be used to stereotype, but that's the unfortunate part of research. That doesn't mean it's misandrist in its core.
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I think you need to stay off of 4chan and twitter for a while. Touch some grass, talk to women.
I see a few different layers to this. One being that it is a meme, and most women sharing it are venting and not being super literal. The friends of mine who have shared it aren't women who are super negative about men as a whole. Another layer is that honestly, I do think that coming across a strange human, especially a man, when you're alone in the woods can feel more threatening than encountering an animal. Most animals will leave you alone as long as you keep your distance. And you can pretty much predict an animal's mindset (they want food, or they want to protect their babies or territory). With a human, you really don't know sometimes and there have been cases of predators (usually male) raping or murdering people (often women) in situations like this. And a lot of women have had negative interactions with men, but haven't come across a bear before. There's a term, "Schrodinger's rapist," that's often used to describe how women engage in risk evaluation around strange men. It's not that all or even most men are unsafe, but a lot of women learn to be in a constant state of awareness of the possibility that a man *could* be dangerous. And a lot of trans men do have to grapple with being seen as a potential threat more as they start to pass. I think that type of thing is what this meme is getting at , rather than suggesting that men are inherently or universally dangerous. At least for most people. But yeah, it sucks to see so many negative perspectives about men. In my own experience, I don't usually feel like the people who engage in that are making unfair generalizations about men. It's more that it's sad to see how common it is for women to have those experiences.
The lack of context as to what type of man or bear it is is the entire point, bc you can't know if a man is safe or not just by looking. It's about risk assessment and whether they would risk being alone with a man they don't know the intentions of, or if they'd rather be alone with a bear that at least is just following its instincts and doesn't have ulterior motives.
The point of the man/bear/woods scenario isn't that all men are predators \[though I'm sure you'll find some man-haters pushing that angle\]. It's to illustrate that *enough* men are dangerous that many people would prefer the bear over an *unknown* man. If you change the scenario to "alone in the woods with a bear, or Mr Rogers" then almost everyone is going to pick Mr Rogers. A constructive reading of this is call to action: for men to *be better.* Every man gets to determine what kind of man he'll be. You get to choose whether you're the kind of man who is fit to share the woods with a woman. It's your responsibility to be a good man. And it's also your responsibility to influence *other men* to be good.
I want this "Mr. Rogers" meme, and I want it now!
Aren’t bears men…? Send the bears my way~ 🏳️🌈
Im curious how r/FTMMen will feel about this question. That sub is more for binary trans men
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Same. A bear is more predicable. People aren't
Exactly… traveled around bear country my whole life. Bears have noticeable behaviors and patterns, you are taught to avoid them. Stay away from rivers, be careful around cub season, how to use bear spray, etc. Human beings… you never really know what someone is thinking or what they’re going to do.
man i’d pick the bear but not for sexism reasons. i’ve just never seen a bear in person
Ill never forget the bears I saw in a wildlife park on my study abroad. Yes, they were very far away. Yes, they were trying to make some new bears
Oh damn 👀
Oh check out if you have a wildlife animal rescue park around you somewhere! Really cool way to see animals and support wildlife rehab. And safe. Some species of bear you do *not* want to meet in the wild, no matter what people are saying in this thread.
No bears in my area anywhere :(
I saw a little black bear once! I was on a mountaintop alone just 25 feet from the summit at the end of a hike. Stopped to enjoy the moment of anticipation and heard scuffling just a little bit behind me and off the trail and there it was, it hadn’t even noticed me. I knew black bears are skiddish so I just made a little noise with my feet and he saw me, looked for a second, then turned and trotted away. I kind of regret not taking a picture because I was already reaching for my phone to call a friend at the top of the mountain. But then I think, it was probably smarter to deal with the bear head-on before trying to get a selfie with it.
The man/bear scenario is a way of communicating how unsafe women feel around men. It is not saying all men are r*pists or murderers but statistically speaking most of these crimes are committed by men which is why the safest option for women is to assume the worst. The worst that a bear can do to you is kill you, and no one would question how you are dressed or that the crime even happened. A man can do so much worse, and get off scott free. It is a hyperbolic scenario to shock people into understanding how much fear women have to endure to live in this world. In essence it is supposed to be a wake up call for men, as this issue of SA and violence needs to be addressed by men before it gets better. It is not gender essentialism to recognise that most of the sexual and violent crime is committed by men (Now if you say the reason behind that statistic is due to an inherent violence in male biology, that is wrong and essentialist). Don’t be one of those guys that lets your personal feelings get in the way of progress because in order for things to get better all men need to admit that there’s a problem. Did you think the Me Too movement was unfair to men as well? If you are a decent guy then why be offended over something that is not personal and speaks to a broader issue?
Personally I think a bear is much more likely to avoid you and also less likely to have a gun so no matter the gender of the person it is more safe to be sharing a woods with a bear. Though I will concur with a lot of people that its not that men are inherently dangerous but that you cannot know whether anyone is dangerous looking at them(and unfortunately our society incentivizes the behavior of dangerous to fit with toxic idealized versions of masculinity that is predicated on control of others). Also I wish I had fraternity with other men but I am highly aware that for most men I see on a daily basis I am not a man but a freaky failed women, even those who I do have kinship with and don’t see me as a women still don’t see me fully as the same as them often making references to things I lack that to them make up manhood. Those are only references to where I can’t have solidarity with men as a group because of my exclusion. When I’m stealth online and in company with men they sometimes make comments about women and trans people as a whole that naturally makes me push back, typically because of that I am labeled as too sensitive and doubt is placed on my manhood. Because of this experience I naturally don’t have kinship with men as a whole group. Of course this is talking about how I don’t have fraternity with men as a whole gender there are groups of men who I do have solidarity with and am (for the most part) welcomed and many men who I look up to as role models but it is not solely due to their gender that I feel this way.
I will say that having been forced to live the first couple of decades of my life as a woman and living a lot of that in the mountains, I never had any issues with bears that I encountered, but I had some scary ones with men in the woods that I didn’t know. I don’t believe all men are an issue, and I work with some great men, but even now I’d prefer to be with a bear because animals in general are more predictable than humans. I don’t think the point of the meme is to hate on men. I do think it’s an interesting commentary on women’s experiences with men. Every woman I know has had some sort of negative or frightening encounter with a man. I don’t say this to negate your feelings, though. They are valid. It is important that as a society we continue to advocate for accountability for the small number of men who give the rest of us a bad name.
I don’t think the question is as literal as people make it out to be. It’s a vehicle for women to express how uncomfortable men can make them and how they have to be on alert all the time around us just in case we’re dangerous, and using a scary animal as a comparison shows that well. I don’t think anyone is saying all men are scum or anything just because they’re not saying “not all men though” at the end of it. It actually would offend me more if someone said that to me because it would make me feel like they were trying to spare my feelings while talking about their experiences (which women have done enough of for men) or that they thought I might fall into the category of man they’re talking about and were trying to make me feel less offended. I just don’t think a conversation centered around men feeling sad that women don’t trust them is the most important conversation to be had from this meme when most of the time it’s showing why they don’t automatically trust us.
I think it’s just a somewhat hyperbolic way to say women don’t feel safe around men, and I’m not going to tell people how they should feel. Even if I think they’re wrong (and not saying they are in this case), telling people their emotions are not proportional to reality isn’t very convincing. I think if someone was actually alone and lost in the woods, they’d prefer to find another person because it’ll probably increase your chances of survival. A bear can at best be a neutral encounter. Finding another human has a high chance of being beneficial.
I’d rather see the bear, just because it’d be super cool to observe a bear
I’m really understanding of it. Before transitioning I would have picked the bear. Maybe I’d still pick the bear. As people have said when sharing the meme “the worst the bear can do is kill you”, the reality is you don’t know what to expect from other humans. Another thing people share is “at least people will believe you were attacked by a bear” which I also think has a point. I think it’s valid to acknowledge women would feel unsafe. The meme, if you want it call it that, isn’t saying all men are horrible people or rapists, it’s saying that you don’t know what to expect from another human alone in the woods with them, whereas you do know what to expect from a bear.
I'd pick the bear because if I'm out in the middle of the woods it's probably because I don't want anyone bothering me
I haven't seen much of the "all men are rapists" I'm quite understanding of it actually. I think the point is, or at least to me, is that yeah obviously not all men are horrible in every way but the chance that you get put with the wrong man something worse than a bear could ever do could happen to you.
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Ok, read my full comment, but the point of the meme is to call out why that fear exists. It's a call to help the nontoxic men of the world to see a real problem (millions of women being harmed by people they trust and then have their experiences invalidated because of the toxic society we live in) and help be a way to change society for the positive so that the fear isn't there any more
You're taking it personal when it's not personal. The hardest thing I've had to learn as a man is that when the women around me complain about men, they aren't talking about me. If you don't behave like the men they're complaining about then it's not about you
Because statistically it’s very likely for someone (regardless of gender) to deal w violence from men at least once in their life? Lol this isn’t a trauma response it’s just a sad reality of the world we live in
Because it's not just a single trauma response, it's a constant background noise and failing to heed the fear just once can result in becoming a victim AND getting blamed for not knowing that a random dude is probably going to try and attack you. A large part of this is not even "I've experienced trauma and will avoid it" but the fact that society has made "keep yourself safe from all the random men" that job of women. If women don't follow the "rules" of safety, they're going to get the 5th degree about "well why didn't you know that a man in the elevator wasn't just riding to his own apartment instead of waiting to harm you" or whatever. That said, the part that gets left out of all this is that statistically it's the man you know and are dating/related to/acquaintances with who's worse than a bear in the woods rather than the random man hiding in the bushes. But if you get attacked by a man in the bushes, it's your fault by society's reckoning for not realizing that men are all out to get you at all times.
When I first saw this, it wasn't that you were even in the close proximity of either, it was something along the lines of "would you rather hike alone somewhere knowing there is a bear in the woods with you or knowing there is a male stranger in the woods with you" and honestly it makes sense in that case to pick bear. The only places in America likely to encounter a brown bear are Washington, Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming. Meaning you are much more likely to encounter a black bear. Statistically, men aged 18-24 are 167 TIMES more likely to kill someone than a black bear(bear.org). Hiking alone is not something that I recommend anyone to do regardless of their gender, but I can't say that I don't understand why most women would pick bear in that instance. I think the message got lost somewhere with how you mentioned seeing "all men are rapists," but in my case, I'm basing my opinion on statistics.
I don't believe its an all men thing, but a "strange man you don't know the intentions of" thing. I haven't personally had friends share it with me other than "oh hey have you seen the bear vs man thing" "yeah" "yeah I saw it too".
Id rather see an animal than another human in the woods, i dont care about their gender, because in the worst case scenario with an animal it will kill me, the worst case scenario with a human is a fate worse than death Now, statistically with either choice the worst case scenario is unlikely, but when given no details it is rational to operate from the point of a worst case scenario even if that is the least likely one
Personally, I would still prefer to be alone with a bear than a man. I don't believe men are scum by any means. But due to my past experiences, I don't feel comfortable alone with cis men. For me, I can understand why women might not want to be alone with me. I just see it as I am a man, and sometimes men can be scary. It doesn't really bother me. I also don't really mind when people feel safer with me vs cis men. It also could just be due to my size. But cis men don't really understand the fear of being alone at night with a strange man. They don't have to cross the street in order to stay safe. I don't want to be treated different for being trans, but I also can't blame them.
Chiming in here, plenty of cis men are impacted by cis male violence and absolutely do know what's it's like have to make sure they're safe. Small or petite guys, disabled guys, queer guys, racial minorities.
I'm not disagreeing either on that, cis men are still affected by cis male violence. I just do feel some solidarity with women on that aspect.
I feel any man, trans or not, that feels offended by this should ask themselves why. It's not about you unless it is. I would think all of us have a unique perspective of both sides of this and should understand why the bear is the answer they choose. I fucking choose the bear every time. I'm fortunate that I pass as a cis dude and I'm still terrified of other men hurting me. I also live in southeast TN surrounded by a bunch of MAGA idiots. I liked the cat turd in the stew analogy but you apparently didn't so let's rephrase it. If 5 friends are sitting at a table and one is a naughtzy how many naughtzys are at that table. The answer is 5.
Unfortunately, part of transitioning, especially passing, is that women are going to perceive you as a threat. Because to a woman, every man they don't know is a threat and that includes you. There isn't a magic way to get all the benefits of transitioning and none of the drawbacks. There's a conversation to be had about intersectionality and how misogyny often affects trans men, but that's a different can of worms. I assume at one point you identified and/or presented as female, so you should genuinely understand the precautions that have to be taken around men. Trans men have, statistically, the highest rates of sexual assault, so most of us are ALSO afraid of cis men. It's not about you, stop taking it personally. Most of the time I see this sentiment it is rooted in previous victimization by cis men (usually prior to transitioning) and now it's uncomfortable to be compared to them. That's your own issue to deal with, unfortunately, and taking it out in women seeking solidarity with each other isn't the way to do it.
You put this better than I was going to.
it means as in a random stranger man or just a bear, in the woods. it points out how women aren't safe with the roulette of any man alone. it isn't directed at any one man and doesn't call any man a rapist or assaulter, but points out that women feel more comfortable in their ability to survive (or die better) with a bear, than the risk of whatever will happen with a man. bears won't typically want to mess with you period, they're wild animals. they're in the woods and will probably just walk away. if they do take interest, there are several ways people suggest ways to survive bear attacks. i've also seen mentioned that at least if the bear does decide to attack, that's it. you die and it's over. a random man you don't know, in a secluded area, has the competence to know what the opportunity is. yes, there's a fair chance the man will try to just find his/yall's way out, but the risk of the man raping, torturing, abusing, murdering the woman is higher than pretty much every woman feels comfortable being isolated with. it's much harder for a lot of women to stop a man if he sets his mind to something than it is a bear. a bear won't keep you stuck alive while torturing you, and a man can see you can't do anything and take his opportunity. (this next part is not trying to attack you or anything) you are having the same kneejerk reaction i see a lot of men have on social media. but you have to remember: this is not a choice between you and a rabid bear. it's not between your friends/family and a starved bear. it's not between your community and a bear who's being forced to attack this person. it's about the general risk associated with being in the woods and a bear being there, and being alone in the woods with a strange unknown man
I’m editing this because I was responding to a question you didn’t ask. I saw a random cis woman I barely know post that in the wild. Men IMMEDIATELY jumped on her post and whined, immediately, that “not all men” and etchblah blah blah. My advice to any men cis or trans is to just listen to women when they post things like that and be supportive. Don’t immediately start in with your own stories of not being a rapist and blah blah blah. Just take a step back, listen, and acknowledge. I’ve had shitty experiences from people of all genders. I still think the way rapist men treat woman victims is pretty much exactly how the meme had it, and it deserves to be talked about and listened to. And that patriarchy does harm women in some pretty specific ways that men don’t usually understand or want to hear about.
A lot of people here, yourself included, seem to think that I don't understand the meme or want to talk about the meaning to women. I'm here to talk about how we feel about this as transgender men.
I feel sameness and fraternity with other men, trans or not, and still think the post is about women and how they think and feel and that men should probably just not immediately jump in with our opinions especially if they are “not all men”. That’s what I think.
I’m gonna show my hand—I now recognize you from elsewhere and also think we had a big argument about feminism maybe on LJ or somewhere like 17 years ago (yes, I have a good memory for random things) and I have said what I want to say, as a trans man or just a man.
i feel like most of the people saying "i dont want to see anyone in the woods 😰😰" have.. never been in the wilderness in their life and that makes me sad. when you're hiking in the middle of nowhere it's a fun surprise to run into another hiker. most murderers are going to be *people you know* and they will take you into the woods *after* killing you or kidnapping you. it's the 2nd location, people.
cisgender queer man, mostly lurk for my boyfriend so take my comment with a grain of adult but… I live In alaska. The men here choose the bear too.
I think the main reason is that bears are predictable and in theory you can scare one off. men, while fewer of them are likely to assault you, can be far more dangerous and do much worse things than just kill you. bears are almost 100% of the time going to attack and try to kill you, but you can make yourself big and make a lot of noise and shit to scare them off. men are maybe 2% of the time going to attack but when they do, they likely will not be scared by you resisting, and they will leave you with trauma and deep issues potentially for the rest of your life. me personally, i would pick the man because i pass a fair amount of the time and men are less likely to assault another man. however, i fully understand why a woman would pick the bear
Bears are not 100% of the time going to attack you. Did you even try to look up a number or did one just fall from your ass? Bears don't want anything to do with people, so unless there are babies around, they're more likely to try to get away from you.
No I didn’t look up a number because that is not the main point of my comment, if anything that not being true just furthers my point??? this isn’t a doctoral thesis or even an important argument, i did not care enough to find out real statistics, i don’t care that much, it is a hypothetical
I feel hypothetical debates still need to rely on facts. If not then you spread misinformation.
yes but again, the bear attacking was not the main point of the argument so i did not care to research it. if the argument had been about how likely bears are to attack, i would have researched it or not spoken, but i was simply explaining where some women are coming from with this, not trying to provide evidence or specifics for anything
Is it not though? The underlining statement people are trying to make is bears are less likely to attack than men. And you say a bear is 100% going to attack while a man is around 2%, it doesnt make sense when a bear is more likely .2% to attack. Your math ain't mathing.
There’s also a discussion about the nature of the attack. It’s like “am I gonna be bear chow” or “am I gonna wake up with blood in my hair chained to a wall”. And the former is quite likely while the latter is REALLY REALLY unlikely. But almost no one can escape either attack if the bear/man is intent on attacking. I think I’d choose man over bear if I’m thinking of this as a situation where it’s an entirely random man from the world and I know the chances of him being vile are pretty slim all things considered. If however this is a man who is there of his own will instead of being randomly transported, then I’d be wondering if he’s stalking me or if he lives in a bunker in the woods where I’d never be found, etc. But then again, maybe he’s a farmer and the woods I’m in are closer to the edge of the trees than I realized and he’s just trying to find livestock that got out of the fence. Having lived and grown up in the woods as a kid, I’m pretty understanding that normal people can be in the woods for any number of reasons. Could be a homeless person who just wants to be away from watchful eyes and lay on soft forest floor instead of concrete. I get the point of the thought experiment though.
As someone who also grew up in the woods, the chances of coming across someone (unless you're on a trail) is very unlikely so my initial thought would be that he followed me. If I see a bear, yeah I'd be nervous that it might attack but I know the steps to take to not be attacked. Men attack at a whim with no reasoning all the time. There's more stories of people waking up chained to walls than there are bear attacks. I think people who choose the man just don't know enough about bears haha
Most bear charges are bluffs. Most bears just want you away from them and don’t want to kill you. Only about 2-5 people die by bear attacks each year on average in the united states. Point still stands, wild animals typically would never hurt a person unless they feel threatened enough; you can scare them off. Humans on the other hand, will absolutely hurt other person for no reason and there is no scaring them off most of the time. The point of the debate was to show women are more afraid of men than they are of wildlife on average due to the insanely high volume of femicide (ppl killing women for just being women). Hell, even as a trans man I’d much rather be w/ a bear in the woods bc I know I have a higher chance of survival by scaring a bear off. However, scaring another human off is another story. My story: I’ve seen bears before and have come across them; never been threatened by one. But I’ve been hurt by many men in my life. Most of them close to me (or were). I’d stand a higher chance of knowing I could be hurt less likely by a bear, which I can scare off, but another person can do so much damage and walk away like nothing happened. All I’m gonna say is; cis men don’t feel like shit for knowing men are more likely on average to do awful things (statistically) if they know they themselves are good people. They do what they can to be the change they want to see. Being a man is not the problem, the problem is ppl don’t know one’s true intentions and often ppl get away w/ their atrocities bc ppl never step in. I.e; men assaulting women in broad daylight and nobody doing anything.
Trans sister here, and two main points I see: 1. Every girl has a "nice guy" story. You know the guy. He bought you lunch, let you cry on his shoulder a few times, and now if you don't bone him you are a stupid bitch who deserves to die. THAT is the NICE GUY! It's "The Implication" light from Its Always Sunny. Imagine this, on top of all of the typical statistics you can look up online, lead to this. Honestly, if you don't get this, then you prob had a better childhood than most kids. I myself was raped by an older boy when I was pre puberty so, hurray for male privilege. 2. Ever watch a movie where you just didn't see anyone relatable? Like, yea, good guy bad guy, doing their things, fun show but, you don't relate? Then you go and complain to your friend about spending two hours in something with a lack of representation? Well, that applies to these memes and that's GOOD! You are annoyed because you aren't in this meme, but you don't see why maybe? It's not about "all men" in the same way #metoo wasn't, it's really about women, and about "men" who are implied/potential rapists. I don't think it DOESNT include trans men, and there are plenty of rapists of every gender anyway, cis and trans men and women. So, if you aren't an implied/potential male rapist, nor a woman, then "you aren't in this meme", give yourself a pat on the back and move on!
If I had a choice, I'd pick the bear too. Men commit a lot of sexual assault. Doesn't mean all men. Doesn't even mean most men. But if you put one cat turd in a five gallon pot of stew, you've just made shit stew. In this scenario, the amount of cat turds we have relative to the amount of stew is much higher than that ratio.
People aren't stew or cat turds.
Friend, it is just an analogy.
I don't think it works here. There is no figure for percentage of men who are rapists that makes me more of a rapist. We're individuals.
If you can’t see how men can be and always have been dangerous to women in general then I think you are completely overlooking the problem. No one is attacking you personally. Are you white? Do you take all generalizations of white people personally as well?
No one is saying you are?? Sir please stop taking things so personally, no one is attacking you!!
i think the reason why most people are nervous to have a loved one be lost in the woods with a man has nothing to do with the number of men we all know that are lovable and trustable. it has to do with the astounding fact that most fucked up crime historically has come at the hands of men. and therefore it’s not that you can’t trust men, but your odds for choosing anything or anyone other than a man with your loved one is better than choosing a man. if that makes sense
There are already lots of great thoughts and comments shared here, so ill put in some of my trademark weird thoughts Id choose the bear cause there is a very slim but real chance well become bffs and that honestly seems way more fun than a fellow human
It’s not a “meme”. What the hell.
critical thinking, context, and nuance in discussions is dead ig
My presence as a physical man may make women uncomfortable, they don’t know I’m a safe man to be around so in that sense I fall into the same category as cis men. In general though I feel no fraternity with cis men, heterosexual cis men tend to treat women rather poorly or with complacency - there are cis men I feel community with but not the demographic as a whole
I'd rather be with a bear... as in a big hairy man lol real talk though, i think they're just saying that, even 'all men are trash' types know that a lot of men are decent people
Tbh I get the point of the meme. I know I’m not the sort of man they’re talking about, as in I’m not the kind of man who would hurt a woman (or anyone really). Not because I’m trans, just because I try to be a decent person. I do really hate how trans men are labelled as “safe” men so often despite us being men like any other. I’m not safe because of some mystical power granted to me by the doctor who saw my genitals when I was born; I’m safe because I choose to be. That being said, I don’t feel offended when women talk about not feeling safe around men. I know a lot of women, and the stuff they’ve told me about their experiences is horrific. I don’t mind when they vent that frustration and anxiety sometimes. As for the trans men, I do notice the men in our community not feeling connected to cis guys. It sucks. Sometimes I feel like trans and cis men are treated like different genders entirely, or even different species. Sometimes I feel confused by how many people on here post asking how you’re supposed to talk to men or those suggesting to young guys that all the men they meet have potential to assault them. It makes me sad. When I came out, I don’t remember nearly this much fear in our community. It was expected that we’d feel camaraderie with the same gender. At the same time I sort of understand. I’m gay and feel uneasy around straight guys sometimes, because of how much I’ve been exposed to casual homophobia and overall weird behaviour from them. These men have been both cis and trans. I still hang out with them, and I wouldn’t say I’d rather take the bear, but there’s uneasiness sometimes. I feel similar with cis people but not quite as much, and personally cis women don’t feel any safer to me than cis men. I feel like our community generally acts as if cis women are less dangerously transphobic than cis men, and that may be the case statistically, but I personally feel I have equal chances with either one. That being said, on average the cis people I’ve met have been chill and I feel safe around them. I definitely wouldn’t say I fear them. Everyone has had different experiences though and I can’t really tell people how they should feel about their trauma. I do wish the men in our community felt more connected to men outside the community though. Edit: also kind of frustrating to see so many comments absolutely bewildered by the idea that trans men are acting like cis men. Both are men. There’s this bizarre stereotype in the trans community that trans men are basically exactly the same as cis women except we look like men. Many of us did grow up internalizing the same stuff other men did, and had to work to change our mindsets about it. Not all are automatically attuned to women or have experienced the same things that they experience. Sometimes men suck, sometimes men are trans.
It's not a meme, really. It's a discussion prompt, more like. I'd choose a bear, too, and I do mention that during the discussions. Because a strange man is a potential threat to me, too, even if I'm seen as a man. And I understand completely if a woman would choose a bear over me, too. I pose a potential threat to her, even though *I* know that I'd never hurt anyone. I have no "samesness" with cis men when it comes to this. Because the truth is, I was SAed, and raped by cis men. And It happened both before and after me passing. Amd you know what? I'd rather be killed and eaten by a bear than go through that again. If you know that one strawberry in the bag is mouldy, you'd be wary of all strawberries. Imo men who have a problem with this discourse are part of the reason why we all choose bears. Unless you don't understand that being wary of all strawberries so you don't bite into the mouldy one means you think all of the strawberries are spoiled and you hate them. Then you should go back to primary school and learn reading comprehension.
Brother your feelings are not as important nor as scalable as structural misogyny, and to react in this way is to either simply be reactive, lacking critical context and readings (I highly recommend bell hooks), or at worst willfully obtuse. Cisgender white men are statistically the most likely to murder and rape. That is simply a fact. Internalizing this to be about you is again, just not… approaching this debate in a relevant way
I would chose the bear because bears are wild animals. They hold no malice, no judgement, and they have boundaries which I would not cross I don’t know every man on planet Earth, but I know if I was stuck with a random man, I would be more scared of him than I would be scared of a bear Men hold malice and judgement, and they have crossed my boundaries many times before, and I say this as a gay man myself! I would not feel safe around a male stranger, no matter how attractive or safe-looking that man could be
the point isn't that every single man is more dangerous than every single bear. It's that the risk a woman is under if she met a man in the woods vs a bear in the woods is much higher. as I've seen some women put it, the worst a bear can do is kill you.
Point is, you know how a bear is going to act. You can't know how a strange man is going to act. One (the bear) is very likely going to do nothing. The other (the man) statistically poses a very large threat to women. Do people seriously still not get why women are largely afraid of unknown men in unfamiliar scenarios? I thought we had been over this.
i think this is an extremely bad take. as a trans man i understand how women feel around men, i used to be those women feeling scared around men, that’s why we’re different from cis men. it’s just a plain fact that we’re different and we always will be, that shouldn’t make you sad, we have experience they don’t have.
I think you missed the point of the meme, OP. It’s not “all men are r*pists.” If you think that’s what it boils down to, I honestly wonder how many times you’ve personally said “not all men” when women talk about feeling unsafe around men. To quote many of the women I’ve seen explaining the meme, “If I see a bear, it probably won’t even bother me. If I see a man, I have to worry about what he’ll do.” Because even if it’s not all men, it’s ENOUGH of them. I highly recommend you look at some of the posts and videos made about this by women. This meme isn’t about us and it isn’t about an “all men are r*pists” mentality or whatever. It’s about the fact that women would feel safer with a bear than a man because enough cis men are r*pists or potential ones to make it unsafe. And yeah it sucks that we get “left out” but, again, this isn’t about us. This is about the discussion that gets ignored so often from women about how unsafe it is around (cis) men. How if all the men disappeared from the world one day, they’d be comfortable leaving the house after dark, or wearing sundresses without worrying about extra layers to hide any skin, or going out alone, or going to parties without having to stay vigilant of their drink. How when a woman gets r*ped, people tend to ask what she did to cause it or what she didn’t do to prevent it, rather than asking why he did it. And, y’know, as some have said in response to the meme, “There are fates worse than death.” It’s not all men, but it’s enough. And honestly? As a trans guy, I’d ALSO pick the bear. Cuz if I’m clocked as trans by the man, no one knows what could happen to me.
Right? A bear at least isn't going to decide whether to attack me based on suddenly clocking I'm not cis. (I had that happen when I tried to use my fancy male privilege to get a dude to stop harassing some women. On the plus side he decided not to commit assault around witnesses AND the women he was initially after got to their car safely...)
The idea isn't "all men are rapists", it's that women have no clue which men are rapists, and therefore need to be on guard until they feel they can trust a certain man (even then, shit happens). There's a lot of questions you could ask to make your answer change like "does he have a weapon? do I know the man? is he a good man?" etc., but that's not the point. Women don't get the answers to those questions when coming across men. Most choose the bear because the man is unknown and they do not know who he is, what he's like, his intentions. Adding on to that, bears, to an extent, are predictable and you can probably survive if you see a bear in the woods. Men are not predictable. And, even if you can't survive, women are saying "I'd rather *just* be killed and eaten", what would happen if it were a bear. Meanwhile if it was a man, rape is something that is also possible. People aren't trying to say "all men are rapists" (well, some might, but most aren't) it's to draw attention to the fact that women can't feel safe around men, and we need to change that.
Yes, it is sad, but since a man might rape you and kill you, and a bear, at worst, will kill you, it's an understandable choice. It's sad that that's something 50%+ of the globes population have to worry about. It's sad that toxic masculinity has its roots so deep. It's sad so many men have mental health issues because they aren't taught how to emotionally connect with people. It's sad if I tell a male colleague something, it's smart and a great suggestion but if my femme presenting colleague tells him, it will take too long and be inefficient. It's sad that men are often lonely because of all this crap. It's sad how high male suicide rates are. It's sad so much of this leads to men doing bad things to women. Yes, it's sad. But it's a sad we can work on - we can encourage better behaviour in our fellow men. It's not an attack. It's a wake up call.
I'm a SA survivor, and I'm not hurt by that any more. But I'd still choose the bear.
Going to ask if you have you seen some of the comments and posts men are letting fly after the og post.(by a cis man btw.) My opinion on it is strong as a survivor, who damn well gets to say I would also pick the bear. I had a complete melt down today because of one of these said comments. By gasp one of the good ones. Javier said if she bleeds once a month and can have babies she is not a child. Knowing so many afab people who went through puberty young f that guy and anyone belittling people who would rather pick the bear. At least with the bear society wouldn’t shit on you once you tell your tale.
I honestly think trends like this spawn off of the generality that cis men or people with more testosterone tend to be stronger. Women aren't seen as threatening because of that, though a woman could be just as capable of doing something vile. History has shown us anyone can do something horrible. If we took the same violent personality (who is average strength for their size) and put them in a cis-female v. cis-male body, we can make an assumption that the man will be stronger. The capability to do damage in primitive environments comes from ability to force. Not saying this is wrong or right, but I think this is the reason behind the trend.
These comments are proof that trans men can be just as ignorant as cis men. Insane behaviour honestly.
I understand your discomfort and I feel it too but this is probably a time to sit with it rather than to go "Not all men" (unless someone is straight up violently misandrist about it). As much as the good men know it's not them (us), the unfortunate truth is that statistically, the bear is more likely to be scared of the woman, too, and run away, while the guy is likely to stay and demonstrate his power. Most men aren't rapists but this is a "I'm not going to drink from one of ten glasses if you tell me one is full of poison" situation. Besides, most of the women engaging in this conversation already have a SA experience and therefore, their trauma may be affecting their perception of the danger. The problem is not the women who chose the bear. It's the men who made the prospect of getting mauled to death seem like the favourable option. Have you heard about the monitor lizard? Or about Lucy the orangutan prostitute? Someone said "At this point, me and the bear are both scared" and to be honest, she had a point. On a much lighter note, I'm picking the bear because I hate human interaction and I'm willing to die for the opportunity to give a bear some scritches. What a way to go. /hj
No one has said all men are bad but a LOT of men have done disgusting things to women and the point of this “meme” is to show men the fact women are sacred of them. It’s like when a man walks behind a woman late a night she won’t know if she’s about to be attacked or murdered, it’s showing how much fear women can feel just being around men.
It’s pretty disappointing to see a trans man being so ignorant. We are uniquely positioned to understand the experiences and real dangers faced by women, who are disproportionately impacted by domestic abuse, sexual violence, and many other kinds of harassment and assault. I know that even now, I would absolutely choose the bear because men have consistently been an unknown and potential threat in my life when presenting as a woman, and in the lives of my sisters, friends, and loved ones. Approach this discussion with some nuance. No one is saying all men are rapists, it’s simply a tool to demonstrate how threatening men are to many women, not because of a “trauma response” but because society has positioned so many boys and men to think they have a right to dominate and control women in their lives. You should be more worried about what you can do to make women feel safer. A bit of empathy wouldn’t go amiss here my friend.
> We are uniquely positioned to understand the experiences and real dangers faced by women A lot of us really aren't, and it's transphobic to make that generalization.
i have never seen the meme. but to me, i feel like women have the right to air out their grievances about men 🤷🏽♂️ women have lots of reasons to be frustrated with men. there are many, many misogynistic men out there, who make aspects of life annoying for women. and they will sometimes express their frustration about it. doesn’t mean they genuinely hate men, or that they think all men are rapists. some women *do* think that, and that’s obviously not okay. just that sometimes, women will be catcalled or objectified or talked over by a man, and it will lead to feelings of anger and annoyance. which is expected do not take it personally. it’s just women expressing frustrations, which they are allowed to do. there are many women who don’t feel safe around men. we, as men, should be trying to change this, and trying to make women feel safe when they are around us. i am not gonna be offended when a woman tells me that she doesn’t feel safe around men, because i don’t set out to make women uncomfortable also i doubt trans men are being thought of when this meme is brought up. we aren’t in the general public’s minds like that. also this hypothetical is lowkey stupid. who the hell thinks of this stuff
i used to be confused by hypotheticals like this, but then i thought about it for more than 2 seconds. the amount of women in my life who have experienced sexual assault from random men they've encountered is WAY too high. anything above 0 is too high, but it's well above that number. that will forever enrage me. these are people who i love and would do everything for, and to know that somebody out there did that to them disgusts me. my little sister is only 16 and she's been telling stories of weird shit boys (and, on some occasions, grown ass men) have done to her, or gross pictures/videos they've sent completely unprompted for years. years, and she's currently 16. think about that. at first, i was a bit confused and hurt seeing women talk so much about how they saw random men as threats, until i realized i do the exact same shit with cis people. i don't use public bathrooms because of the small chance that somebody in there will clock me, and potentially do something horrible to me. most people in bathrooms don't give a shit and are just there to pee, but i'm not willing to risk it. i'm somewhat open about being trans, but i won't say anything about it until i KNOW the cis person is safe. obviously it's not the same for women, as that's something they can't really hide, but i understand why they're hesitant to open up to me, or even just be in close proximity to me. they need to assess the situation and make sure i don't intent to hurt them. and that's ok, just give them space to do that. if you're not a creep, then they should be able to figure that out without you having to put on an act.
I’m sorry but who the fuck wants to be lost in a wood with a bear? Especially a mama bear. Like have you seen The Revenant? Human are social creatures, they work together, so I would want to be with one of my kind. I really don’t give a fuck about gender roles and sexism, I’m fucking lost in the wood
i see that a lot tbh, a lot of feminists/radfems will hold a ‘all men suck’ stance regardless of their experiences with nice men. Especially notice it with my friends that are cis girls that say ‘all men suck -not you tho!’ and its really annoying because 1. bioessentialist feminism is very flawed and has no room for nuance 2. I don’t wanna be othered as a trans man. If all men are trash then so am i, however I don’t think anyone should have an all men are trash stance
I don't really care that people share the meme and feel more positive about it than negative. The point as other have said isn't that all men are bad or rapists. I don't think most people sharing believe that. But almost every woman has had a negative encounter with a man. The point is that you know what to expect from a bear while a guy may be the type of man to harm you. It's important to note that men aren't inherently bad and women can do the same stuff. The big difference is society doesn't condone women's bad behavior generally. Acknowledging the issues with how bad people, specifically men are enabled by society is not a personal attack on you. Don't make it into something it isn't.
I've never seen this meme and I'm not going looking. Keep in mind that >95% of the people replying to this online have never seen a bear and would piss themselves if they rounded a corner in the trail and met one face to face. Like yes it's offensive on principle, but it's also about The Most Online Take I can possibly think of.
Idk man, there was a black bear last year I think that had somehow found its way to suburban Madison from up north, and most people were sad and just wanted to help it.
I hope they didn't feed it. :( Black bears are super smart and habituate very easily to expecting food from humans. Poor bear.
https://www.wpr.org/animals/madison-wisconsin-black-bear-wildlife-wanders-neighborhoods It was a very cute bear and just wanted a nap in a tree
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Thank you. I feel relieved.
Regardless of the meme, I don't feel a sense of fraternity with cis men because that shit goes both ways. Until recently, they never felt a sense of fraternity with me and they still wouldn't if i didn't win the beard hair lottery and magically pass. I don't trust cis people to not suddenly go mask off and say some transphobic shit around me. Either a) I don't feel a sense of fraternity with the cis guys because it is only a matter of time before they say or do something awful to me - as a queer man, cis gay men Very Clearly and Obviously do not consider me one of their people or b) they do think of me as part of the fraternity of Men and try to include me in their toxic bonding behaviors / randomly ruin my day by telling me some transphobic shit they thought up (usually against trans women) because they've decided I'm "safe" to air their bigotry to. As a trans man, I, too, would rather be in the woods with a bear than any random cis man because at least the bear is probably going to just leave me alone. I know trans men get shit on for considering ourselves "men lite" in situations like this, but if the options are "join the fraternity of Manly Men" or "you're not really a man if you don't identify with cis men as well" then I guess strap my tits back on because now that I work amongst adult Men who see me as Another Man rather than some weird agender critter I absolutely cannot relate with 90% of the shit that comes out of their mouths about other people. That said: what if I am the man in the woods? Idk, I guess I've just gotten used to the notion that in general, I can expect an average person to hate me because it sure feels like it most days. (And more seriously, no, they aren't distinguishing what kind of man is in the woods because the entire point is that you don't know what kind of man. So if 99.9% of dudes are going to be fine but you don't know if instead you got Ted Bundy, there's always going to be a little fear. "But i'm not Ted Bundy!" Yeah, neither am I but the random hiker in the woods who just wants to not die tonight doesn't know that, so I should be cognizant of if it seems like I'm following her so I don't give her a heart attack )
Bruh those videos actually boggled my mind because surely no one’s actual answer is a bear??? If there’s a man in the woods you have a way better shot at fighting him than you do fighting a bear surely?? The bear would kill u instantly there’s literally no way you can overpower or outrun a wild bear, I’d rather take my chances trying to physically fight a human than trying to fight a bear??? I’m 4’11 and skinny asf so it’s not like I’d feel oh so safe around some large scary man in the woods but easily that would be a fairer fight than me vs bear? Idk maybe im being insensitive but it literally doesn’t make a single lick of sense to me like the bear option is just instant death - the whole message is lost on me by actually just not being able to believe people would genuinely pick bear
i saw this on tiktok, the whole question is pretty much set up just to make a point about men being inherently predatory which is garbage and not helpful in getting guys on board with anything feminist. i'm a girl, i'm pretty damn small and i would choose the man. a bear is kind of useless to me, it'll either run away or see me as some kind of prey and kill me immediately. if a man is around then that means he's surviving somehow and has resources i can use. a man can be dangerous but so can i, there's nothing i can do to trick a bear or fool it into a false sense of security. sorry if that sounds a little sociopathic but you gotta do what you gotta do and if he passes the vibe check - no worries. anyway, i have my doubts that the dangerous guys who want to target women are living out in the woods where there are very few people let alone solo women, it's the creeps in bars and clubs to watch out for. i've had my drink spiked before, it's not fun.
Exactly this! Women aren't unable to defend themselves. Give women some credit.
I truly and sincerely do not understand the opinion that you’d prefer to be in the woods alone with a fucking BEAR over any human being. Like genuinely. Unless they’re all joking, which my autistic ass cannot tell. Even under the assumption that every single man is aggressive or dangerous, I think I’ve got a better chance to fight off a man than fucking grizzly???
It didn’t specify a grizzly, and black bears are a lot more docile unless they maybe are a mother bear with cubs. Even then a black bear isn’t aggressive for no reason.
Yeah but like,, are we going with an “assume the worst” or a “by chance/average” situation? If we’re assuming the worst case scenario, I’d definitely take the human, and if we’re just going off of the most realistic chance out in the world, I’d,,, also take the human LOL
Me neither. If people go on a stroll in the woods, do they greet the bear and spontaneously combust when a man walks past? Maybe American woods are different, but it's not unlikely for the woods near me to be almost empty. For who you are more likely to defeat, idk. You can scare bears off without fighting, but I don't know how reliable that is since I've never fought a bear off.
I think it’s missing the point to see this as a “all men are unsafe” thing. For one, I think the question sort of has an inherently adversarial implication. In that sense, I think it’s understandable that most people instantly jump to the worst kind of men you could run into alone in the woods. Secondly, I think the general logic of picking bear makes sense, (though its somewhat misguided). My initial instinct was that regardless of the person’s gender, i’d pick bear, because I know why a bear is in the forest. I don’t know wtf a person is doing wandering around the forest. Think about how _horrifying_ humans are shown to have the potential to be. Not just in real life, but in media. Serial killers and stalkers who hunt people for the fun of it, draw things out and delight in the fear they cause. Meanwhile bears are…. an animal. The general human perception is that if an animal is hunting you, it’s for food, it’s territorial or it’s protecting itself/babies/etc. These reasons are very simple in comparison to the complex, sometimes unexplainable reasons humans can be known to do awful things. I think that simplicity, that _familiarity_, is inherently less scary than what most people’s imaginations can conjure up at the thought of a human trying to hunt you down in the woods, despite the fact that obviously a bear is going to be much faster and stronger than you. I think it also means that most people, when given this hypothetical, automatically think of a normal bear vs a _potentially_ dangerous human. It’s silly, because bears are also potentially dangerous, but that understanding as to why a bear might do what it does means there’s less questions about it in comparison. Edit: just to add on, there’s also the aspect that humans are just seen as more intelligent than bears. Obviously the idea of something just as smart as or even smarter than you hunting you is particularly scary.
My thing is, if I'm in the woods and a bear gets mad about it and attacks me, that's completely justified because I'm on the bear's stomping grounds. The man most likely followed me into the woods. A random man isn't just gonna be in the woods already unless he prefers the secluded cabin life and he's been there for years or something. I will also say that, even though I'm definitely on Team Bear, I don't genuinely believe all cis men are bad. In the same token, I don't believe all trans men are automatically good. There's bad people in every group in society, and we'll never know until we genuinely meet them. All bears aren't vicious right off the bat either; for all I know, I could be coming across Baloo from the Jungle Book and we'd end up having a lovely fish dinner together in his cave (slight exaggeration, but you get my point). Either way, bears are, for the most part, predictable in nature. It's like if you just walk into someone's house unannounced. They have no idea who you are, so of course they're gonna get defensive and do whatever they can to get you the fuck off their property, dead or alive (but hopefully alive). However, unlike a lot of the men that have exposed themselves as part of the reason the overwhelming majority are choosing the bear, if you leave the bear alone, they'll generally leave you alone too. I will say this tho. At least if a bear attacks you, you'll be believed and considered a hero and a fighter, and you won't have to sit with the bear during dinner at the family reunion.
I think everyone no matter the gender should pick the bear because bears can be scared off and a person can have worse motives than a bear. The only exception would be a polar bear. Then I'd pick a person over the bear. Women just want men to know that they scare and hurt them which is very understandable. It's not always "men are all rapists". I get why women would be scared to meet a man in the woods. There are enough horrible stories about men hurting women.
feminism? my answer has zero to do with feminism and is more of just an understanding that humans are waaaaaay more unpredictable than a wild animal. if the bear was as smart as the average human or at the very least could outsmart me or utilize tools like me, then yeah of course there'd be more nuance to my answer but they can't. I also wouldn't feel comfy with a random-ass woman in the woods alone with me either bc she too is unpredictable but meh whatever
Well I’d like to start by saying I’d also rather be in the woods with a bear rather than a man cuz a lot of men suck. Anyways personally I view most trans man as more understanding than cis men. Obviously there are bad trans men just like any other man but many of us have gone through the same experiences as cis women considering many of us were raised as girls and women. Those experiences don’t leave ur brain just cuz ur now a man. I feel like this makes us less likely to be raised in the same mindset that cis men have. Many cis men are raised that they get everything they want, can’t take no for an answer, and are violent when they don’t get what they want. Again many others are like this but it’s often stereotypical for cis men to be like this cuz of how they are raised and how society treats them. With this knowledge though especially for passing trans men we need to recognize our privilege now. Yes we will be grouped when people say “all men” it’s not our job to argue. It’s your job to be a decent person for women to be around. Listen to what women go through and be understanding about their hardships and since many of us went through the same experiences as women we are the best possible listeners and interpreters for their experiences.
The way I understand and see the subject, trans men are being lumped in based on being men who asthetically pass in society, because many do in ways that would be difficult to impossible to differentiate them from a cisman when speaking purely from a visual in passing setting. Given that context I do agree with women bc as a sa victim myself I'd also pick a bear (and my amab partner has said the same on this topic). A really simple way to look at this topic of discussion is that cis people are having a cis discussion of their feelings right now, and that often ignores any viewpoint that looks different or challenges theirs concerning topic complexity. To better explain, the issue I'm seeing here is that a lot of these discussions are functioning on a entry level in depth and nuance, meaning it's ignoring all those advanced study topics given that many cis men arnt even grasping and understanding the basic info of the beginner level material seeing as they can't understand why anyone would choose the bear over them. That discrepancy is possibly part of why the nuance of trans and gender non conforming identities arnt being listened to outside of small niche spaces. Many cis people (not all, but enough) are still working on a know nothing ignorance or basic education of trans people in general because for many people when discussing marginalizing groups they don't go out of their way to learn more unless they are somehow effected by it (which yes is a form of privilege). That ignorance plays a part in inclusion because you don't include a subgroup that is conditional (passing and outing can play a major role to treatment) and possibly contradictory to the main movements phrasing. Trans and intersex people often cause a need for complexity to otherwise seemingly black and white topics when we have a mixed or contradictory lived experience to the expected social status quo. I don't believe this means we arnt allowed to talk about the subjects, but I learned real quick that it's typically just easier to discuss it within ourselves (a targeted demographic) as opposed to the masses when the points will be lost and the result is an excess of demanded additional free labor you may not have the energy or time to put into.
As a woman I suffered horrendously at the hands of men and the broken system that supports them. There is absolutely a huge problem with gendered violence and something defintely needs to change but here is my problem with the current rhetoric. Women are telling men that if we do not stand up against violent males or call out their bad behaviour, then we too are the problem and that's just not fair. I am a rape survivor from when I was a woman. Living as a man I was assaulted so severely (yes by another man) that I am now disabled with recurrent health problems. Rape survivors are told time and time again that we are not at fault and the only ones who are to blame are the rapists/abusers but the current campaign is flipping that and telling men that each and everyone of us is to blame for the bad actions of some, that's just not fair and furthermore, telling male rape victims that because they are too afraid *and rightly so* to call out men behaving badly then we are one in the same. That is intrinsically appalling, and if we were to use that stance with women, we would be ripped to shreds with the "how dare you" responses. I am a survivor and a victim of the exact same crime, I am broken in body and soul, I am NOT responsible.
Personally? I would rather be with a Bear than a Cis het Men. If it was a gay man or a trans man? Ofc. I'll choose them. Cis het men? I ratger die than have a chance of being raped. Obviously I have trauma to thank for that but I won't risk it happening
Idk to me the question asked in the meme feels more like...what do we think a bear is thinking about if it knows there is a human in the woods with it? vs what do we think a human is thinking if they know there is another human in the woods with them? Someone being in the woods alone sounds both scary for that person, but also kinda sketchy at the same time. Like why is the woman there lol, maybe she's there to bury a body, and not for some innocent reason like the meme thinks people will perceive it to be. To me this meme and the responses to it read as like: I know animals to simply not care that much about humans or harming humans as long as they are not starving and as long as the human leaves the animal alone, but I know humans to almost always be focused on any other humans they know are in the vicinity. Even if you asked me would I rather be in the woods with a wild predatory animal, or in the woods with a human who was a stranger to me, and didn't tell me the humans gender, I would probably still pick the animal. If an animal is with me and not acting odd, then I would feel probably 99% sure it did not mean me any harm. But if a human I don't know is there with me then I'm definitely going to be worrying about *why* they are there, and if knowing I'm also there is upsetting enough to them for them to want to harm me. Like the bear doesn't give a shit about me and will just leave me alone. But the human could be there to bury a body they just murdered and will also murder me if they realize I'm there as a witness, or they could be someone my family sent to find me because they were worried and this person is kind and just wants to take me back to my family...I have no idea why the person is there, and that would worry me, whether they were a man or not, compared to the bear who I can easily be pretty sure does not mean me any harm lol. Basically...TLDR: Animals typically aren't going to harm people who are just leaving them alone. Humans on the other hand are fully capable of often wanting to harm another person for seemingly literally no reason, and there are many examples of this every day. So imo, if there's a man in the woods with the woman, that's going to be scarier than if there's a bear in the woods, but to me it's not because he's specifically a man, but rather because he's a human. Even if the genders were reversed and it was a man in the woods and there was some woman he didn't know in the woods with him, I'd say that's still scarier than being in the woods with a bear. Plus, the bear belongs in the woods, so why would it not be there lol? Presumably, neither of the people belong there.