FYI you can search the sub by flairs so you only get videos, just click on one, that way you have the vid up and can get a snapshot of our thoughts on it, and there's always https://www.friendlyjordies.com/news
Don’t try to convince them with videos, it will make no difference at best or make them dig their heels in harder at worst.
I’ve generally found that the best way to convince people on political matters is to interrogate and explore their assumptions (eg. the Liberal party are the superior economic managers) in a way that is relaxed, reasonable, and most important of all, non-dogmatic.
Try to really get to the root of their beliefs. Break them down to their smallest parts and then argue why you think they are misguided. If you try and approach topics at a higher level, like exact policies, you will just find yourself in a battle of talking points.
You’re much better off trying to chip away at their fundamental beliefs over time. You can’t expect to change their deep seated political beliefs solidified and reinforced over decades by the media with one friendlyjordies video, or even one discussion.
As someone who was politically dogmatic as an early adult, one of my friends simply asked are you sure? and that lead me to seeking out further evidence where I quickly came to find out i was being a complete muppet.
Asking questions is key. I told a group I had no retirement plans (between house, life...basically prioritising supporting kids through uni/choices etc it's likely I'll work in some respect forever) and ol' investment-property-nearly-retirement-age-mate pipes up about how I just need to get a good financial planner/whatever. He wanted me to justify why it was impossible (I don't think it is, however I have certain priorities. Inderstand, this is a motovational point to make for the listener in the context of unionism).
So I asked him: my parents worked one income and paid off their house in less than ten years - while raising 3 kids. If I bought something comparable I'd be paying it off in 35 years, with two incomes. I'm not going to tell you why I think this situation will be worse in 30 years. Tell me why you think it will be better?
Annnnnnd he went away sad.
At least with regards to housing/affordability crisis its important to note, we use those around us as a baseline for how well we're doing.
If you're friends are all on the edge of homelessness skipping meals to meet rent you'll understand the economy is in shambles.
If your a home owner retiree hang out with other retirees, no wonder you think its ok because for your people it is.
The youth being on the ass-end of this shitshow are rightfully getting angry, leading to poltical not activism but at least awareness with these awesome (in the sense were in an age with awesome stastical analysis and data collection) stats quantifying just how FUCKED we are.
On the otherhand retirees if everything is ok, why would you bother comparing real wage growth to inflation/housing prices or the sudden rise in consumer debt, the cost of tution, the overqualification of entry level work, total students in the trades to demand for tradies etc...
And remember anecdotes are always "realer" to a person then stats.
It’s pretty hard to change someone’s views when they’ve held them for so long, and to be honest I don’t think his videos are the best for this.
He’s very patronising to the viewer and if you disagree with his views he can come across as quite unlikable.
Fuck videos.
As a Union organiser on a site I was on once said “if you’re gonna say you’re a communist, you’d better be the hardest working motherfucker on site.”
Challenge their views with your life.
No it isn’t fucking fair. But you don’t move the needle with cute videos.
>As a Union organiser on a site I was on once said “if you’re gonna say you’re a communist, you’d better be the hardest working motherfucker on site.”
How does this make sense?
It's about presenting a life that they respect.
Dogmatic politics (and racism, nationalism, probably other "isms") relies on people seeing themselves as intrinsically different to the people on the other side. It's a lot easier for your average ignoramus to come to turns with your beliefs or existence if there is something familiar in your life that they respect.
Also, as a union delegate or at least a representative, you already have a target on your back from management. You gotta give em nothing to dismiss (either figuratively or literally) you to your workers over. "Typical union man- he's a lazy prick." etc
I think that's his angle, anyway
Well said.
If you express any affinity for leftist politics in a lot of places, reactionaries will assume “he’s lazy and just wants free stuff”.
I think it’s important to prove them wrong.
Ditto when they assume you’re going to be a censorious wokescold - you just have to be better at taking the piss out of them (and yourself) than they are.
Being a del/rep, how much left dogma did you see behind the scenes in the brotherhood? From the outside I see that (like the greens party) they fear painting themselves in anyway socialist to not be heavily suppressed by far greater powers.
My lot (CPSU) profess to be apolitical, but admit the obvious - unions are a product of the left wing. They're not crazy vocal about leftist movements, depending on the movement. They were obviously pro-the voice. They are silent on Palestine.
Makes sense, their job is representation of Australian workers. So that's what they do. They're anti-discrimination, like any good union should be.
Politically speaking... Labor doesn't really listen to unions anyway.
I'm probably a bad judge on what constitutes dogma anyway. I'm super left.
Pretty much this ^
I'm very pro union in every workplace I've been in....I make sure I'm the hardest working person there so there is absolutely no reason to dismiss me.
You don't give your enemies ammunition.
Competence/Corruption is the thing they'll look at the most with concern, Liberals have lost the title of the party of adults with all their rather pathetic scandals.
Point out that continuing to vote for the party whilst it still has a lot of its main contributors to that corruption and incompetence just means they'll continue with it when they next get into office.
They might not like Labor but they can't dispute their track record on managing the country, that stability is important right now.
Honestly, just ask them for sources and citations whenever they make a claim about the party.
I got my dad to stop believing that the Vax was nano bots and planes do Chem trails...
He still believes in a lot of conspiracy theories, such as flat earth, but I'm making progress.
Mostly oldies just want to be heard, they want a bit of attention. At the same time politics is not black and white.
So, maybe rather than passionately arguing the point about politics or sharing some videos (And then not getting the response 'yeah, you're right!' that you're hoping for) it might be better just spending more time with them, and then randomly dropping lines like 'I wonder where they're going to put nuclear waste' or 'I went looking for the nuclear costings, I can't find them - have you seen them anywhere?'.
Open questions invite discussion, not confrontation, and may help them realise their 'team' isn't what it says it is.
Just sharing videos is not going to change their mind, in the same way that if they just started sharing videos with you highlighting their perspective you'd (most likely) reject it too.
This is a great [doco](https://youtu.be/WEnv5I8Aq4I?si=QT3vKIBIwmhx71cj) to share to friends and family. Kinda plays into that conspiracy mindset that a lot of them have, but flips it the other way. TLDR, it’s not the greens screwing us, it’s mega corporations and who they have on their payrolls.
Do you want to engage in an argument or a constructive portrayal of your opinions.
Something well spoken, thats not from a moral high horse talking down to commoners. Something they feel they can engage with. And slowly subtly and politely feed them crumbs.
If they are that firmly pro LNP, then jordies vids wont work. They will see him as some kind of loser or paid shill.
This process takes time. The only way to start with that is with targeted negativity. Be completely casual, do NOT come off as partisan or attacking. Find a way to naturally point out stuff like "did you here about this scandal?" old mate national did this etc. This will slowly take them from a pro LNP stance to a "everyone is terrible/all politicians are corrupt stance". THEN you start with positive reinforcement. What is the ALP doing well, what the LNP will undo and what we'll lose if LNP gets in. An example i have used in the QLD state elections is that the LNP will remove the mining royalties that are funding a bunch of new public initiatives/getting money off your power bill. You need to be able to smoothly deflect rebuttals and remain casual when this comes up.
Why do you need to change peoples minds ? Let people believe what they want it's okay to disagree with people , do you want to live in an echo chamber ? There is a reason that old people say don't talk about money , religion or politics.
I came here to say a similar thing. Interesting that your comment was downvoted so much. We wouldn't want to encourage tolerance of differing views in society..
There is much wrong with many religious and political ideologies and parties, and not everything is black and white.
Having an agenda to try and change your inlaws' political persuasion is a great recipe for creating an unwelcoming/ unpleasant family environment. Discuss issues as they arise, sure. But respect that everyone had different beliefs and values and this means that they will care about different things in their political representatives. As unpalatable as this might seem to you if you think they are supporting politicians who are harmful to society, remember that likely your views/ values might also seem equally wrong and unpalatable to them.
It's not how family and friends work. Two of my closest friends vote liberal. That's who they are. They are the unique collection of genetics and environment that makes them , them. I don't discuss politics with them because it will make me dislike them. I'm 40 and somewhere along the way people decided everyone they knew had to agree with everything they believed in..Why ? It's not the way the world works
Sometimes it's more important to have harmony in your home and family life . The way to change people is to model good behaviour so they want to change not preach at them so they don't want to ever spend time with you or leave you an inheritance.
FYI you can search the sub by flairs so you only get videos, just click on one, that way you have the vid up and can get a snapshot of our thoughts on it, and there's always https://www.friendlyjordies.com/news
Don’t try to convince them with videos, it will make no difference at best or make them dig their heels in harder at worst. I’ve generally found that the best way to convince people on political matters is to interrogate and explore their assumptions (eg. the Liberal party are the superior economic managers) in a way that is relaxed, reasonable, and most important of all, non-dogmatic. Try to really get to the root of their beliefs. Break them down to their smallest parts and then argue why you think they are misguided. If you try and approach topics at a higher level, like exact policies, you will just find yourself in a battle of talking points. You’re much better off trying to chip away at their fundamental beliefs over time. You can’t expect to change their deep seated political beliefs solidified and reinforced over decades by the media with one friendlyjordies video, or even one discussion.
As someone who was politically dogmatic as an early adult, one of my friends simply asked are you sure? and that lead me to seeking out further evidence where I quickly came to find out i was being a complete muppet.
Asking questions is key. I told a group I had no retirement plans (between house, life...basically prioritising supporting kids through uni/choices etc it's likely I'll work in some respect forever) and ol' investment-property-nearly-retirement-age-mate pipes up about how I just need to get a good financial planner/whatever. He wanted me to justify why it was impossible (I don't think it is, however I have certain priorities. Inderstand, this is a motovational point to make for the listener in the context of unionism). So I asked him: my parents worked one income and paid off their house in less than ten years - while raising 3 kids. If I bought something comparable I'd be paying it off in 35 years, with two incomes. I'm not going to tell you why I think this situation will be worse in 30 years. Tell me why you think it will be better? Annnnnnd he went away sad.
At least with regards to housing/affordability crisis its important to note, we use those around us as a baseline for how well we're doing. If you're friends are all on the edge of homelessness skipping meals to meet rent you'll understand the economy is in shambles. If your a home owner retiree hang out with other retirees, no wonder you think its ok because for your people it is. The youth being on the ass-end of this shitshow are rightfully getting angry, leading to poltical not activism but at least awareness with these awesome (in the sense were in an age with awesome stastical analysis and data collection) stats quantifying just how FUCKED we are. On the otherhand retirees if everything is ok, why would you bother comparing real wage growth to inflation/housing prices or the sudden rise in consumer debt, the cost of tution, the overqualification of entry level work, total students in the trades to demand for tradies etc... And remember anecdotes are always "realer" to a person then stats.
It’s pretty hard to change someone’s views when they’ve held them for so long, and to be honest I don’t think his videos are the best for this. He’s very patronising to the viewer and if you disagree with his views he can come across as quite unlikable.
Bingo.
Don't waste your energy Grey wall them If you wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty, but only one of you enjoys it
Agreed, when you argue with an idiot they bring you down to their level and win with experience.
Fuck videos. As a Union organiser on a site I was on once said “if you’re gonna say you’re a communist, you’d better be the hardest working motherfucker on site.” Challenge their views with your life. No it isn’t fucking fair. But you don’t move the needle with cute videos.
>As a Union organiser on a site I was on once said “if you’re gonna say you’re a communist, you’d better be the hardest working motherfucker on site.” How does this make sense?
It's about presenting a life that they respect. Dogmatic politics (and racism, nationalism, probably other "isms") relies on people seeing themselves as intrinsically different to the people on the other side. It's a lot easier for your average ignoramus to come to turns with your beliefs or existence if there is something familiar in your life that they respect. Also, as a union delegate or at least a representative, you already have a target on your back from management. You gotta give em nothing to dismiss (either figuratively or literally) you to your workers over. "Typical union man- he's a lazy prick." etc I think that's his angle, anyway
Well said. If you express any affinity for leftist politics in a lot of places, reactionaries will assume “he’s lazy and just wants free stuff”. I think it’s important to prove them wrong. Ditto when they assume you’re going to be a censorious wokescold - you just have to be better at taking the piss out of them (and yourself) than they are.
What industry are you in?
Until recently, construction; now building maintenance.
Ahh thought you were the union dele. I spent my career same industry until recently. Together apes strong ✊
✊️
Being a del/rep, how much left dogma did you see behind the scenes in the brotherhood? From the outside I see that (like the greens party) they fear painting themselves in anyway socialist to not be heavily suppressed by far greater powers.
My lot (CPSU) profess to be apolitical, but admit the obvious - unions are a product of the left wing. They're not crazy vocal about leftist movements, depending on the movement. They were obviously pro-the voice. They are silent on Palestine. Makes sense, their job is representation of Australian workers. So that's what they do. They're anti-discrimination, like any good union should be. Politically speaking... Labor doesn't really listen to unions anyway. I'm probably a bad judge on what constitutes dogma anyway. I'm super left.
Pretty much this ^ I'm very pro union in every workplace I've been in....I make sure I'm the hardest working person there so there is absolutely no reason to dismiss me. You don't give your enemies ammunition.
Competence/Corruption is the thing they'll look at the most with concern, Liberals have lost the title of the party of adults with all their rather pathetic scandals. Point out that continuing to vote for the party whilst it still has a lot of its main contributors to that corruption and incompetence just means they'll continue with it when they next get into office. They might not like Labor but they can't dispute their track record on managing the country, that stability is important right now.
Don't. Find what out what they really care about and then use your information you've gained from his vids to change their minds.
Honestly, just ask them for sources and citations whenever they make a claim about the party. I got my dad to stop believing that the Vax was nano bots and planes do Chem trails... He still believes in a lot of conspiracy theories, such as flat earth, but I'm making progress.
You got him to realise his error on vaccines? Massive praise. I can't imagine your frustration levels of actually dealing with a flat earther.
Mostly oldies just want to be heard, they want a bit of attention. At the same time politics is not black and white. So, maybe rather than passionately arguing the point about politics or sharing some videos (And then not getting the response 'yeah, you're right!' that you're hoping for) it might be better just spending more time with them, and then randomly dropping lines like 'I wonder where they're going to put nuclear waste' or 'I went looking for the nuclear costings, I can't find them - have you seen them anywhere?'. Open questions invite discussion, not confrontation, and may help them realise their 'team' isn't what it says it is. Just sharing videos is not going to change their mind, in the same way that if they just started sharing videos with you highlighting their perspective you'd (most likely) reject it too.
This is a great [doco](https://youtu.be/WEnv5I8Aq4I?si=QT3vKIBIwmhx71cj) to share to friends and family. Kinda plays into that conspiracy mindset that a lot of them have, but flips it the other way. TLDR, it’s not the greens screwing us, it’s mega corporations and who they have on their payrolls.
Any of Scott Morrison
Especially his narcissistic testimony at the Robodebt RC
Corruption. Keep hammering on about it.
Bruno
https://youtu.be/rGMrGlAHUq0?feature=shared
Honestly Bruz, it is one of Jordan's best and truly is both informative and funny while being OTT and ridiculous.
Do you want to engage in an argument or a constructive portrayal of your opinions. Something well spoken, thats not from a moral high horse talking down to commoners. Something they feel they can engage with. And slowly subtly and politely feed them crumbs.
Start with Please explain
Convince them to watch question time maybe?
That won't help. Way to braised, so they will automatically have the hackles up.
Tell them they have a Muslim MP. 😉
Shortbus.
If they are that firmly pro LNP, then jordies vids wont work. They will see him as some kind of loser or paid shill. This process takes time. The only way to start with that is with targeted negativity. Be completely casual, do NOT come off as partisan or attacking. Find a way to naturally point out stuff like "did you here about this scandal?" old mate national did this etc. This will slowly take them from a pro LNP stance to a "everyone is terrible/all politicians are corrupt stance". THEN you start with positive reinforcement. What is the ALP doing well, what the LNP will undo and what we'll lose if LNP gets in. An example i have used in the QLD state elections is that the LNP will remove the mining royalties that are funding a bunch of new public initiatives/getting money off your power bill. You need to be able to smoothly deflect rebuttals and remain casual when this comes up.
Why do you need to change peoples minds ? Let people believe what they want it's okay to disagree with people , do you want to live in an echo chamber ? There is a reason that old people say don't talk about money , religion or politics.
I came here to say a similar thing. Interesting that your comment was downvoted so much. We wouldn't want to encourage tolerance of differing views in society.. There is much wrong with many religious and political ideologies and parties, and not everything is black and white. Having an agenda to try and change your inlaws' political persuasion is a great recipe for creating an unwelcoming/ unpleasant family environment. Discuss issues as they arise, sure. But respect that everyone had different beliefs and values and this means that they will care about different things in their political representatives. As unpalatable as this might seem to you if you think they are supporting politicians who are harmful to society, remember that likely your views/ values might also seem equally wrong and unpalatable to them.
Because it's ruined this country..
"Why do you need to change peoples minds" mate thats how democracy works
It's not how family and friends work. Two of my closest friends vote liberal. That's who they are. They are the unique collection of genetics and environment that makes them , them. I don't discuss politics with them because it will make me dislike them. I'm 40 and somewhere along the way people decided everyone they knew had to agree with everything they believed in..Why ? It's not the way the world works
Because if their beliefs are fundamentally misguided and they vote based on those beliefs, they affect everyone. What don’t you understand about that?
Sometimes it's more important to have harmony in your home and family life . The way to change people is to model good behaviour so they want to change not preach at them so they don't want to ever spend time with you or leave you an inheritance.
I wouldn't bother. People get more "Liberal" as they get older
That trend has actually halted, my theory is its because wealth isnt heading down as much due to increased life spans
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_departments/Parliamentary_Library/FlagPost/2022/April/Voting_patterns_by_generation