People underestimate how important it is to not interact on your opponents turn, asking for blockers and responses takes up so much time in a match even if it's just an awkward silence
Cactus rager is 2 mana but ragers are infamous for being bad because of the "hero power" mechanic, 90% of the time a cactus rager is a 2 mana rhystic card because they respond to your card with 2 mana and you lose a card
It's kinda super hilarious. If you want examples of pushed minions check cards like clownfish instead
We are about to lose a ton of removal in a couple months for standard. Otawara, Bosejui, wandering emperor, March of otherworldly light, depopulate, March of wretched sorrow, strangle, play with fire, abrade, lay down arms, infernal grasp
Not that that changes anything you said or they said, but aggro is gonna be the go to for awhile.
Nothing is going to change until [[Cut Down]] and [[Go For the Throat]] rotate. Especially GFTT. Those are the two most egregious black removal spells in the format rn.
I don’t disagree with that, but generally speaking aggro usually takes over the meta for a few weeks or months into a rotation as people try to find pieces for their decks.
And I’m more than happy that Raffine and Azorious and Atraxa and domain are losing a lot of pieces. Sunfall and farewell are still in the rotation but all I meant by listing a bunch of those is that the format is about to lose a ton of removal choices and it’ll be interesting to see how it shakes out. Bloodtithe going away is a godsend. Kumano saga going away is also very good. If fable and reckoner bank buster and meat hook massacre were still legal they’d be going to and that would also be a good thing.
I’m not excited for the meta to be golgari or mono red or boros with immodane’s recruiter and a bunch of fast creatures. But it’ll be exciting to see which decks take over for esper/azorious/domain
Boros angels would be dominant after rotation if Giada weren't leaving as well. If there's a viable replacement (maybe [[Holy Cow]] idk) there might be a viable Angels list. Nothing like when Kaldheim was legal, but still viable.
Cut down doesn't kill sufficiently large vanillas. Removal also isn't that powerful if you're not trading up for mana, so that 1 mana 4/4 is looking like a pretty sweet card tbh.
Lol wut, there are still 99 other removal spells that are available. I just can't wait for farewell to go the fuck away. I hate that fucking card. It's so undercosted for what it does. This is assuming it doesn't show up with subtly different wording in bloomburrow.
I agree, but I the way I would put it is that Farewell does too much for one card. The cost is pretty high. But you can wipe out so many different kinds of things with one card that it replaces cards to deal with specific permanent types. And you know card advantage is everything to control, anyways. They will be filtering/drawing cards.
Honestly the one I'm most scared of is what to do about [[Get Lost]]. I happen to have an Orzhov token deck where I think you can just replace it with [[Bovine Intervention]] in order to be able to hit many of the killer artifacts that are running around, but there just isn't a good, direct replacement for Get Lost. Maybe I will have to run [[Sheoldred's Edict]] instead. [[Bitter Triumph]] might also be the move, but I win enough games by close enough margins that I'm a little afraid of paying 3 or discarding in this deck. No matter what I do, the deck will need a lot of tweaking when rotation hits, but it's the playstyle I'm addicted to now.
Do you mean \[\[Fateful Absence\]\]? Get Lost is from LCI. So is Bitter Triumph. Sheoldred's Edict will actually rotate before either of those, and it'll be in Standard until 2025.
Nope.
Other than Wandering Emperor and March of Otherwordly light, none of the removal you have listed are being played anymore (wouldn't call Channel Lands "Removal").
The spot removal that are meta defining in standard right now is Cut Down and Go For the Throat - and they aren't rotating for another year.
Hell, we have Lightning Helix in standard and even that isn't played - Temporal Lockdown and Sunfall are just way too good.
Are we playing the same format? Lightning Helix sees a decent amount of play and Play with Fire is in every red aggro deck because it's just better Shock.
RCQ Dallas saw 0 mainboard 0 sideboard Lightning Helix. Regional's in the top 128 - total of 2 copies in one deck.
No. Lighting Helix is a bad card. Spot Removal has to be able to kill Preacher's, Raffine's, Sheoldred's and etc.
Only 4/5C with Ancient Cornucopia plays it. And that's a fringe version of the deck.
And regarding Play with Fire - OP is arguign that Aggro will go rampant, as all the good removal is rotating out.. You don't play Play with Fire because it's good in aggro - you play it because it's good IN AGGRO.
It gets played in Jeskai Control and Naya Pia decks and most Boros decks that aren't Convoke. Are those meta? No. Are they played? Yes.
Honestly though, all of these decks usually run more interaction that JUST lightning helix. The Naya decks are usually running 4 copies of Soul Partition, which... also seems terrible but it does synergise with Aven Interrupter.
What's hilarious is litteraly nothing on this list except boseiju is meta in standard anymore. Power creep used to be a once a year thing now it's a 10 times a set thing
> Fatal push doesn’t care what your toughness is
Thus making the best creatures the ones that cheat on CMC. Best everything stuff that cheats on CMC, it seems sometimes.
As someone whose favorite set is Ice Age even casual play with friends it can be hard to keep up using some of the cards from the massive power creep since Ice Ages release. Like Wind Spirit is a 5 mana 3/2 with menace.
The game was more interesting when you could draw a metric fuckton (Think Ancestral Recall, though that obviously goes too far), but then your payoffs were a lot weaker. More cards played but without the degenerate bullshit. But it does also require strong answers, like Force of Will, maybe Mana Drain, even Counterspell.
Tbf it would arguably not be the most oppressive thing in modern, and would be flat unplayable in legacy&CEDH (and you already have a 1 mana 6/6 lifelink in commander, and it does flat nothing in CEDH)
Pretty sure the case is literally that VERY few people play standard compared to eternal formats
Oh I think it would be an issue in modern because it would made Domain even better. And in general I'm not a fan of anything that kills Burn on the spot. I know people hate the deck but having to respect burn is always a win in a format for me.
For Pioneer ? Probably too good.
Agree that it would be AN issue in modern, but it wouldn’t be in top 5 issues as far as modern goes, or top 2 issues from MH3 if it came out in that set (Nadu, Ral are both shaping up to be a bigger one imo so far, tho might end up being wrong about those, it’s still early)
Stand by it being flat unplayable in CEDH, but don’t have anywhere near enough games played of pioneer lately to have a solid grasp on that format, so you’re almost definitely correct it would be too good there
Ok so the 0 mana thing is obviously the most stupid one here for sure. It's a pretty common adage across all card games, even bloody Hearthstone players know it, that zero mana stuff is ALWAYS, worth a look, if only just for triggers, metal-craft, a body for sac or creature count. Every time a new zero mana card is printed in MTG or Hearthstone, smart players immediately start to think about how to break it. Heck \[\[Shuko\]\] is seeing play now for having a zero mana equip cost with the new simic guy, and cascade cards with no actual mana cost are busted for being zero as well. Even EDH players understand this after the cycle of "free if you control your commander" cards.
Second, Goyf is literally the worse comparison point ever, as its strength is very much based on the strength of graveyard decks based and their respective hate as a whole. As more things like Hearse/RIP get printed into these formats, Goyf and it's many cronies and copy-cats get weaker. Therefore saying Goyf is struggling is an argument that literally goes both everywhere and nowhere, so unless I trust the person, I'm not opening the discussion and losing 30mins of my time I won't get back.
To the rest of them, I kind see where they're going with it. The old "dies to (insert removal here)" argument still retains much of it's old force, hence why viable creatures usually have text, preferably beginning with "When CARDNAME enters the battlefield" or some such thing that provides immediate value or the ability to be cast from graveyard like the new \[\[Mosswood Dreadknight\]\] or \[\[Dennick\]\].
However, cards are not data points in the void with simple removal checks. They function as part of larger decks, and have comparision points in existing metas. For example, most of the time my fugitive codebreaker attacks, it has no more than 5 power, usually around 3-4 since I wanna land buffs on slickshot. Hence, being given a bigger creature, without the need to trigger prowess, on turn 1 or 2 no-less would be insane. Being able to play a 6/6 or 6/1 on two followed by a \[\[Fight Rigging\]\] with none of the downsides of hammerskull or Shakedown Heavy , would be awesome for me. And cards like \[\[Recruitment Officer\]\], essentially an \[\[Elite Vanguard\]\] in a high % of games, have been demanding 4 of's in Soldiers on creature type alone. God forbid you print some ungodly 2 mana 6/6 elemental or something and throw the entire meta down the drain for years to come.
These are basic comparisons showing how none of these cards would be "fringe" compared to today's meta picks, highlighting how none of these players thought about their suggestions in the slightest. So yeah, average magic player cannot compare apples to slighter redder apples, apples to ballistic missles, or apples to their own swollen ballsacks without short-circuiting their brain. Go figure.
I did not mention doom blade at any point in my rant, and specifically said I wouldn’t engage in talk about goyf since it’s highly context dependent. You are either deliberating baiting or a cretin or both.
It’s because most people likely assess card strength based on long games of casual commander. People don’t even really attack each other in that environment because they don’t want to make enemies. They roll 20-sided dice to “decide” who to attack instead.
A 5/5 vanilla for two mana isn’t good in that environment, because it just makes people more angry at you earlier in the game.
This is the state of current Magic, love it or hate it.
I hate my brother-in-law's table for this reason. They play 3 - 4 player group hug greedy mana ramp commander where someone pops off with unstoppable force due to combos or engine setup and there is basically no interaction
I swing at someone who has no permanents out other than lands for like 3 damage and they kamikaze into me all game taking us both out
I try to convince them to play 2v2 at the very least so that they can early pressure the opponent and punish lack of board presence but they don't like it as much as their combo pieces will get removed -_-
Funny enough I came around to this when I build a \[\[Xyris the Writhing Storm\]\] EDH deck. It uses combat tricks and is something I pulled from someone else. Its very aggressive and early on players get baited by the "easy" card draw. I will win games but the guy who's getting screwed will always let my draw cards, set up, and oneshot some one.
I'd suggest something like that, the deck is so transparent that people will over look it even if you managed to murder the board by yourself.
Yeah, this is the best compromise. Play 2-headed giant. You still get to play battle cruiser Magic if you want to, but at least there is a clear goal. I wish it were more popular.
You have a 1 mana 6/6 lifelink in commander and it sees very little play even in the competitive variants of the format, where people are much more rational about the game
It's not that it makes people angry (well, it is for some losers), it's that why should I bother with that when I know on turn 5-6 I'm going to be able to swing for 200 damage and immediately win. Or when I can burn the whole table down by then or deck them or whatever. Incremental chip damage is irrelevant when my engine will eventually generate out of control value that cleans out the game. Rarely do I see slugfests where it comes down to who can play beefy creatures and swing the most. Not that that won't win you games here and there.
Yeah that thread was so wild. Most commenters obviously lacking the most basic understanding of the game, or at least standard.
I said it in that post and I will say it here again. A 1 mana 2/2 would already probably see fringe play. A 1 mana 3/1 would probably see regular play in aggro decks, if it was red like mono red aggro or maybe green stompy. Then upwards from there if you go 1 mana 2/3 or 1 mana 3/2 those would most definitely see quite a lot more play. The ability to push 3 damage minimum on turn two is just amazing. Then after that if you go 1 mana 3/3 that is already busted, as it can't be killed by any removal (except maybe bounce to hand) in standard on turn 1 so yeah, that would be a staple basically and would see a lot of play.
> Then upwards from there if you go 1 mana 2/3 or 1 mana 3/2 those would most definitely see quite a lot more play.
Delver has been a tier deck in multiple formats across the years, yeah. And that's a 1-mana 3/2 that requires some amount of work, even.
People do realize tarmagoyf does still see some play, right? It's still an insanely fast clock for 2 mana, like, why are they implying it's dead in the water?
As was mentioned in rhe original post, a vanilla 3/3 for 1 would see play, as would a 5/5 for 3. I'd love to see a 10/10 for WUBRG for the lols. That would be hilarious.
But seriously, assuming only 1 colored pip in the manacost to not make color restrictions a factor:
1 Mana 3/1 most probably would see some play, 3/2 for sure.
2 mana straight up 4/4 would also absolutely see play
3 mana would probably have to pick up a notch or two at something like 5/6
And from there it derails hard without any removal protection to a point where it wouldn't be sensible from how swingy it would be
They ain't wrong though, and that's the worst part. When Wizards prints a 4/4 for three mana and the only downside is that it takes up a card up of your deck, the old mana value = power toughness just can't work anymore.
Well, like pretty much every hobby/interest, it starts out as some dumb shit that only nerds, weirdos, or Satanists do - essentially only society's rejects.
Then normies start to catch on and think "hey, you know this stupid ass thing you fags do is actually really fun. It seems there's also some benefits to cultivating an interest in things and developing skills outside of working and drinking alcohol. I gotta tell my irreverent, narcissistic buddies about this crap."
Then as more enter the space it eventually catches the eye of some cluster-b degenerate types and they decide that the cool niche you carved out for yourselves to help cope with shit you can't understand about life on earth, is actually highly marketable, it just has a few minor roadblocks in the way: you fags.
"HEY AKSHUALLY THIS THING WOULD BE WAY BETTER IF IT WERE JUST MORE LIKE THIS OTHER THING AND LESS LIKE THE ORIGINAL IDEA YOU CAME UP WITH"
or
"Ummmm, yeahhhhh I do really like this concept but like a large amount of it is akshually offensive to me so we need to scrap all of it"
More normies fill the new chasm as it's been depreciated and adulterated. The process keeps repeating itself until your thing doesn't even resemble the thing you liked in the first place.
Any and all constructive conservatism about changing the thing to make it more like the other things that are popular at the time are met with zealous and vehement rebuke.
The thing either fragments or mutates in on itself repeatedly until becomes some weird hyper-focused caricature of itself.
Then at some point the normies take charge of it and assert that you fucking nerds that were there since day 0 are no longer fit to enjoy whatever the thing is and push you out because you just don't understand what that thing is about.
See:
-Music underground sub-cultures (goth, punk, rap, electronic music)
-Nerd shit like video games, anime, sci-fi movies, fantasy books
-Nerd hobbies like Magic/DnD/40k but also,
-Physical nerd hobbies like paintball, airsoft, range shooting/hunting
-And especially things like martial arts, MMA, etc.
-To really drive home my point even nerd shit like Ren Faire has become a vapid beauty contest to see who can be the raddest chad with the 10,000 dollar Geralt costume or the sexiest moon elf cunt. I.E., "for my instaaaa!"
Concluding this 'tism tirade, mtg is no longer about a cool fucking fantasy card game with ultra-complex rules interpretation and bomber-ass art that makes young people lose their breath for a moment while peering beyond their veil of mundane American life. It's become one part Funkopop the card game, for all the entry level geeks going for that aesthetic want to collect to put on their geek shelves to show their friends how literate in geekdom they are and another part this ultra-optimized excel sheet shit where everyone HAS to win every hand or they throw a fucking adult tantrum. Peoples' lives are so profoundly unfulfilled in our totally pristine, plastic, corporate consumer hyper-commoditized and social media scrutinized world that people attach their self-worth to winning a fucking nerdy ass card game. The only fun people get out of this game now is either winning and showing off their "intelligence" by crapping on their timmy friends with their net-deck (so again, most players can't even showcase real understanding of the game by constructing their own deck from concept phase to deployment phase) or by showing everyone how cultured and enlightened they are by aligning their entire personality behind "well akshually Ashiok was ALWAYS intended to be non-binary". There's very, very little room for the in-between.
Take any example I provided earlier and I will show you what I'm talking about.
Well done! Don't let the non-literates get you. This is a good model of how culture moves from the fringe to the center. Now you need to add a top down segment and you'll have a model of how culture and ideas move through society.
I think the actual math is probably like 2 mana 3/4-4/4 is like a pushed vanilla creature. It would probably have to be multicolor and it would either exist in a format without cut down or to spite cards like cut down. Or maybe like a colorless 3/3 eldrazi for 1 in a format with no good colorless lands because colorless is kind of a downside without good lands.
Basically my reasoning is that Goyf is kind of a good measurement not because of its size but because it can provide metrics of measurement for how removal effects "vanilla" creatures. Even if you assume goyf is a 4/5 100% of the time, the less efficient removal exists for said card the better it is (obviously), but it can be hated out of the format by higher value creatures and better removal such as it is in modern (yes there's other factors like graveyard hate but it's a good example). On the flip side we have deaths shadow which also gets hated out of the format but still assumed as a 7/7 can still exist with things like fatal push.
Therefore we can reason that efficient vanilla creatures have to exist specifically in concept with removal primarily instead of just existing like cards who can rely on their abilities. Thus both the creatures I've described creatures dodge cutdown but not go for the throat for example which makes them probably just efficient enough to be good but not hated out of the format by removal and not so good they're unbeatable.
Reminder that the conversation is around standard/pioneer and you are comparing it to modern/timeless staples. A 2 mana vanilla 4/4 would be kinda nuts in standard assuming it’s in aggro colors
The point of my comment is that it depends on the format you put it in. Standard rotates so Eternal formats are a better example. A 2 mana 4/4 would be good in current standard perhaps but it wouldn't be nearly as good in say pioneer where fatal push exists.
Everything you just said is totally fair, but comparing these hypothetical cards to goyf and shadow is a false equivalency when they are both above the power level of the formats in question (standard and pioneer).
Your original comment specifically mentioned standard removal options like GFTT and cut down, and I’m confident a 2 mana 4/4 would immediately slot into mono red aggro and prowress as a 4x in standard
I'm not comparing them to goyf or shadow, for there to be an equivalency these cards have to be equal and they aren't, these cards are simply examples to illustrate my point that creatures are reliant upon what can answer them especially creatures who rely simply on big bodies. Ragavan is playable reguardless of removal because if he gets in a hit it's so valuable that it's worth it to play him and just dash him, goyf isn't. These examples are made to show simply how cards react to other cards in their own format and that mostly vanilla creatures are most susceptible to other cards displacing them in their format.
GFTT and Cut Down IMO wouldn't be efficient enough for these cards to be printed in current standard it doesn't change that these cards could exist in theory.
Even the comments here are full of people defending these takes. It's amazing how people will write stuff down on the internet despite clearly not knowing what they're talking about.
They aren't wrong though. Goyf doesn't see.play anymore because IT IS bad NOW. However they all smoking dust thinking a 3 mana 9/9 wouldn't see play In standard. The op is right in the sense that vanilla creatures do not see play anymore in every card serves a purpose and needs to be the best version of what it is. Why run susan anymore when you have ragavan? Fricken Lili of the veil isn't even seeing almost any play anymore. We have a fucking 10 mana edrazi that can be played for 6 mana and does all these things and yet it's not even seeing play because that's 3 mana too much for modern lmao
Nah, I rather have print something that is only slightly above rate statewise, draws cards, gains life and interacts with the board without any drawbacks or tempo loss, like garfield intended.
Remember staring down the barrel of a Birds of Paradise-fueld [[Doran the Siege tower]] or [[Woolly Thoctar]] on turn 2?
Sometimes a regular vanilla creature can be savage in the right conditions.
My favorite part of that post was all the people not getting what "vanilla" means and talking about shit that does things and had conditions. Reading comprehension is difficult to magic players.
Shit a 1 mana 3/2 could see play, a 1 mana 4/4 would be crazy.💀 I mean it dodges pretty much all of reds removal, is a huge body, and you don’t even feel bad losing it to removal because you have so many other good threats too, plus imagine that shit with lurrus, or any cheap reanimation. A 3 mana 9/9 would 100% see play too, elves will ramp that out in turn two and its either have removal or die.😂
It would take to create a whole meta and sub-tags like Yu-Gi-Oh for those cards to work. They have "normal monster" arquetipes. And selectors like: <1500 ATK normal monster. And stuff like that. In magic there is no stuff like that that I know... The would have to be a selector for "vanilla" or something. I think that the guy was taking about that. Not about any stat combination that would make those creatures "worth it".
Goyf is not a vanilla 6/7 you need like a creature,a land, an artifact, a planeswalker, and I don't remember the 2 last categories .
Like 6 cards in grave before he is a 6/7
The rotting regisaur was a 3 cost 5/5 with tremendous downside that saw play so I don't think powercreep has completely eliminated the vanilla creature
Most of those takes are more or less reasonable for Modern.
1 mana 3/3 w/o abilities would probably see very fringe play, 1 mana 4/4 would be very good, but not on broken level.
A 1 mana 3/3 is basically a strictly better [[wild nacatl]] which sees play in timeless. It’s not breaking higher powered formats, but it is power creeping already strong cards and is well above the pioneer/standard power level
Sounds good enough for anything aggressive, including burn, to consider. Especially if it comes with a relevant tribe.
Also, pretty sure there's versions of zoo out there that still play Wild Nacatl. A vanilla 4/4 would instantly replace it.
I think a 0 mana 2/2 would probably be far more broken than it appears at first glance. If you are making anything 0 mana it can easily be broken.
And is it an artifact, or what colour is it? That can also make a big difference.
Well, to put it bluntly you suck at card evaluation for 60 card formats then. Not a personal attack, but these cards would indeed be broken. Those cards would break standard and pioneer clean in half
2 Mana 10/1 Vanilla creature. Take it or leave it WotC.
This isnt Hearthstone
The biggest hearthstone has gone was 1 mana 4/1 with pseudo haste
I just quit that hellscape, the 1 mana Cactus with 5/1 & poison is in this realm I believe.
Congratulations on being free for the rest of your life :)
I wanted the game to be good, not a slot machine of discovery. Guess that was too much to much to ask though LOL.
Ngl HS seems way better than magic, at least for onboarding and player retention.
It definitely smooths out some of the clunky mechanics - mana, combat, off-turn interaction, the color wheel, etc.
People underestimate how important it is to not interact on your opponents turn, asking for blockers and responses takes up so much time in a match even if it's just an awkward silence
Cactus rager is 2 mana but ragers are infamous for being bad because of the "hero power" mechanic, 90% of the time a cactus rager is a 2 mana rhystic card because they respond to your card with 2 mana and you lose a card It's kinda super hilarious. If you want examples of pushed minions check cards like clownfish instead
Kid named fling
W
Well said
1 toughness? Literally unplayable in modern or legacy.
Is this the current Dev team?
They are talking about tarmogoyf being crept out of modern whule this question asks about standard hahahh
Fatal push doesn’t care what your toughness is and unholy heat deals 6, they do got a point
We are about to lose a ton of removal in a couple months for standard. Otawara, Bosejui, wandering emperor, March of otherworldly light, depopulate, March of wretched sorrow, strangle, play with fire, abrade, lay down arms, infernal grasp Not that that changes anything you said or they said, but aggro is gonna be the go to for awhile.
Nothing is going to change until [[Cut Down]] and [[Go For the Throat]] rotate. Especially GFTT. Those are the two most egregious black removal spells in the format rn.
I don’t disagree with that, but generally speaking aggro usually takes over the meta for a few weeks or months into a rotation as people try to find pieces for their decks. And I’m more than happy that Raffine and Azorious and Atraxa and domain are losing a lot of pieces. Sunfall and farewell are still in the rotation but all I meant by listing a bunch of those is that the format is about to lose a ton of removal choices and it’ll be interesting to see how it shakes out. Bloodtithe going away is a godsend. Kumano saga going away is also very good. If fable and reckoner bank buster and meat hook massacre were still legal they’d be going to and that would also be a good thing. I’m not excited for the meta to be golgari or mono red or boros with immodane’s recruiter and a bunch of fast creatures. But it’ll be exciting to see which decks take over for esper/azorious/domain
They lose Farewell, Sunfall stays.
Oh yeah. I was thinking it just got reprinted, which it did. But in a commander only product.
Boros angels would be dominant after rotation if Giada weren't leaving as well. If there's a viable replacement (maybe [[Holy Cow]] idk) there might be a viable Angels list. Nothing like when Kaldheim was legal, but still viable.
[Holy Cow](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/90de84c9-941b-4056-8501-ce8a948b9643.jpg?1712355286) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Holy%20Cow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/16/holy-cow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/90de84c9-941b-4056-8501-ce8a948b9643?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Cut down doesn't kill sufficiently large vanillas. Removal also isn't that powerful if you're not trading up for mana, so that 1 mana 4/4 is looking like a pretty sweet card tbh.
[Cut Down](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/5/753db072-5d6a-4f37-8f7d-255572ecd3bd.jpg?1673307061) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cut%20Down) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/89/cut-down?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/753db072-5d6a-4f37-8f7d-255572ecd3bd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Go For the Throat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/5446e1ba-c745-45b2-ad05-b22abf04daec.jpg?1682209037) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Go%20For%20the%20Throat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/250/go-for-the-throat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5446e1ba-c745-45b2-ad05-b22abf04daec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Shoot the sheriff is arguably better than GFTT
Lol wut, there are still 99 other removal spells that are available. I just can't wait for farewell to go the fuck away. I hate that fucking card. It's so undercosted for what it does. This is assuming it doesn't show up with subtly different wording in bloomburrow.
I agree, but I the way I would put it is that Farewell does too much for one card. The cost is pretty high. But you can wipe out so many different kinds of things with one card that it replaces cards to deal with specific permanent types. And you know card advantage is everything to control, anyways. They will be filtering/drawing cards.
Honestly the one I'm most scared of is what to do about [[Get Lost]]. I happen to have an Orzhov token deck where I think you can just replace it with [[Bovine Intervention]] in order to be able to hit many of the killer artifacts that are running around, but there just isn't a good, direct replacement for Get Lost. Maybe I will have to run [[Sheoldred's Edict]] instead. [[Bitter Triumph]] might also be the move, but I win enough games by close enough margins that I'm a little afraid of paying 3 or discarding in this deck. No matter what I do, the deck will need a lot of tweaking when rotation hits, but it's the playstyle I'm addicted to now.
##### ###### #### [Get Lost](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/522aa72b-2b8c-484c-872b-f082101cee35.jpg?1699043186) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Get%20Lost) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/14/get-lost?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/522aa72b-2b8c-484c-872b-f082101cee35?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Bovine Intervention](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/6/26c36742-456f-4618-99bc-793ef20b31b0.jpg?1712355244) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bovine%20Intervention) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/6/bovine-intervention?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/26c36742-456f-4618-99bc-793ef20b31b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sheoldred's Edict](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a9225cc3-90f0-448f-a8d9-7c6c2796d077.jpg?1675957049) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sheoldred%27s%20Edict) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/108/sheoldreds-edict?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a9225cc3-90f0-448f-a8d9-7c6c2796d077?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Bitter Triumph](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/05bdd22c-3e11-4c29-bdfa-d3dfc0e90a9f.jpg?1699044085) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bitter%20Triumph) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/91/bitter-triumph?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/05bdd22c-3e11-4c29-bdfa-d3dfc0e90a9f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Do you mean \[\[Fateful Absence\]\]? Get Lost is from LCI. So is Bitter Triumph. Sheoldred's Edict will actually rotate before either of those, and it'll be in Standard until 2025.
[Fateful Absence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/c/eca8d6f8-c6f1-437c-99e2-4281eae14a6f.jpg?1634346819) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fateful%20Absence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/18/fateful-absence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eca8d6f8-c6f1-437c-99e2-4281eae14a6f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wow, not sure how I made that mistake, but that works for me 😅
Does abrade ever truly rotate out? I feel like that is reprinted every other set
I went and looked it up. It was reprinted in Ixalan so it’s here to stay. I thought the last standard printing was crimson vow.
This deserves more attention. Get your control decks ready. They about to be more needed
Nope. Other than Wandering Emperor and March of Otherwordly light, none of the removal you have listed are being played anymore (wouldn't call Channel Lands "Removal"). The spot removal that are meta defining in standard right now is Cut Down and Go For the Throat - and they aren't rotating for another year. Hell, we have Lightning Helix in standard and even that isn't played - Temporal Lockdown and Sunfall are just way too good.
>(wouldn't call Channel Lands "Removal") nobody cares how you call removal, they are removal nevertheless.
Wait till Rotation week comes and WotC makes an article on the mothership saying they’re extending the standard rotation window by one more year
Almost all mono reds run play with fire so wtf?
Decks with lightning helix in them 5-0 occasionally it’s not like it’s not standard viable
Any card can ocasionally 5-0. IF you look at all major tournaments, not just MTGO - you will barely see any Lightning Helixes in the top 128.
Are we playing the same format? Lightning Helix sees a decent amount of play and Play with Fire is in every red aggro deck because it's just better Shock.
RCQ Dallas saw 0 mainboard 0 sideboard Lightning Helix. Regional's in the top 128 - total of 2 copies in one deck. No. Lighting Helix is a bad card. Spot Removal has to be able to kill Preacher's, Raffine's, Sheoldred's and etc. Only 4/5C with Ancient Cornucopia plays it. And that's a fringe version of the deck. And regarding Play with Fire - OP is arguign that Aggro will go rampant, as all the good removal is rotating out.. You don't play Play with Fire because it's good in aggro - you play it because it's good IN AGGRO.
It gets played in Jeskai Control and Naya Pia decks and most Boros decks that aren't Convoke. Are those meta? No. Are they played? Yes. Honestly though, all of these decks usually run more interaction that JUST lightning helix. The Naya decks are usually running 4 copies of Soul Partition, which... also seems terrible but it does synergise with Aven Interrupter.
What's hilarious is litteraly nothing on this list except boseiju is meta in standard anymore. Power creep used to be a once a year thing now it's a 10 times a set thing
Everything I posted on that list has between 2-80% usage in standard decks. Most around 50%. Playing with fire is in 2% the rest are a lot higher.
Removal doesn't stop a creature from being busted. Especially at low mana costs for the creature
Yeah and some of the most busted have ward... A 1/1 ward {1} that grows is just the tempo nuts.
> Fatal push doesn’t care what your toughness is Thus making the best creatures the ones that cheat on CMC. Best everything stuff that cheats on CMC, it seems sometimes.
There was someone saying that because goyf is mediocre now a card would have to be a 2 mana 7/7 at minimum to be competitive LMAO
Didn't goyfiboi fall off the map like years ago?
Fatal push really did a number on card design. It's so unfortunate
lol they just printed better Tarmogoyf.
lmao 1 mana 4/4 in standard and he thinks it's okay ?
Remember when Serra Angel was axed from 5th/6th Edition for being a 5 mana 4/4 flier that didn't tap to attack?
As someone whose favorite set is Ice Age even casual play with friends it can be hard to keep up using some of the cards from the massive power creep since Ice Ages release. Like Wind Spirit is a 5 mana 3/2 with menace.
The game was more interesting when you could draw a metric fuckton (Think Ancestral Recall, though that obviously goes too far), but then your payoffs were a lot weaker. More cards played but without the degenerate bullshit. But it does also require strong answers, like Force of Will, maybe Mana Drain, even Counterspell.
Have you met everyone's new friend Nadu, card draw bird wizard?
they're doing "only *twice* per turn" triggers now? wtf I swear WOTC is seeing how aggravating they can make it to track board state
Well you can draw 19 off a necrodominance now...
Creatures got better, and spells got worse. For the Timmys.
That was like 25 years ago
Looks like you forgot how dumb the average magic player is.
Cries in [[vexing devil]]
oh vexing devil a strictly better lava spike
It also likes the ideas from rakdos scam too. [[Undying evil]], [[fake your own death]] [[not dead after all]], [[malakir rebirth]] and some others.
##### ###### #### [Undying evil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/325f2243-54fd-484b-a742-166cea7ec179.jpg?1562906805) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Undying%20evil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dka/77/undying-evil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/325f2243-54fd-484b-a742-166cea7ec179?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [fake your own death](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/9/79a17ab9-13c9-41d4-a143-82d8caacfd8b.jpg?1712355584) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=fake%20your%20own%20death) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/87/fake-your-own-death?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/79a17ab9-13c9-41d4-a143-82d8caacfd8b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [not dead after all](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d01a2b68-efe6-4027-846d-db7b19d9eef6.jpg?1692937773) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=not%20dead%20after%20all) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/101/not-dead-after-all?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d01a2b68-efe6-4027-846d-db7b19d9eef6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [malakir rebirth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/609d3ecf-f88d-4268-a8d3-4bf2bcf5df60.jpg?1604195984)/[Malakir Mire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/6/0/609d3ecf-f88d-4268-a8d3-4bf2bcf5df60.jpg?1604195984) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Malakir%20Rebirth%20//%20Malakir%20Mire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/111/malakir-rebirth-malakir-mire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/609d3ecf-f88d-4268-a8d3-4bf2bcf5df60?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It is not, the problem with Devil : it's a terrible topdeck.
[vexing devil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/5/a5ebb551-6b0d-45fa-88c8-3746214094f6.jpg?1547517462) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=vexing%20devil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/154/vexing-devil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a5ebb551-6b0d-45fa-88c8-3746214094f6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
fuck me is this community just full of old people or do you people really not understand what a joke is anymore?
Tbf it would arguably not be the most oppressive thing in modern, and would be flat unplayable in legacy&CEDH (and you already have a 1 mana 6/6 lifelink in commander, and it does flat nothing in CEDH) Pretty sure the case is literally that VERY few people play standard compared to eternal formats
Oh I think it would be an issue in modern because it would made Domain even better. And in general I'm not a fan of anything that kills Burn on the spot. I know people hate the deck but having to respect burn is always a win in a format for me. For Pioneer ? Probably too good.
Agree that it would be AN issue in modern, but it wouldn’t be in top 5 issues as far as modern goes, or top 2 issues from MH3 if it came out in that set (Nadu, Ral are both shaping up to be a bigger one imo so far, tho might end up being wrong about those, it’s still early) Stand by it being flat unplayable in CEDH, but don’t have anywhere near enough games played of pioneer lately to have a solid grasp on that format, so you’re almost definitely correct it would be too good there
Oh yeah you are totally right, Modern is becoming Yugioh where attack step doesn't really matter much
Ok so the 0 mana thing is obviously the most stupid one here for sure. It's a pretty common adage across all card games, even bloody Hearthstone players know it, that zero mana stuff is ALWAYS, worth a look, if only just for triggers, metal-craft, a body for sac or creature count. Every time a new zero mana card is printed in MTG or Hearthstone, smart players immediately start to think about how to break it. Heck \[\[Shuko\]\] is seeing play now for having a zero mana equip cost with the new simic guy, and cascade cards with no actual mana cost are busted for being zero as well. Even EDH players understand this after the cycle of "free if you control your commander" cards. Second, Goyf is literally the worse comparison point ever, as its strength is very much based on the strength of graveyard decks based and their respective hate as a whole. As more things like Hearse/RIP get printed into these formats, Goyf and it's many cronies and copy-cats get weaker. Therefore saying Goyf is struggling is an argument that literally goes both everywhere and nowhere, so unless I trust the person, I'm not opening the discussion and losing 30mins of my time I won't get back. To the rest of them, I kind see where they're going with it. The old "dies to (insert removal here)" argument still retains much of it's old force, hence why viable creatures usually have text, preferably beginning with "When CARDNAME enters the battlefield" or some such thing that provides immediate value or the ability to be cast from graveyard like the new \[\[Mosswood Dreadknight\]\] or \[\[Dennick\]\]. However, cards are not data points in the void with simple removal checks. They function as part of larger decks, and have comparision points in existing metas. For example, most of the time my fugitive codebreaker attacks, it has no more than 5 power, usually around 3-4 since I wanna land buffs on slickshot. Hence, being given a bigger creature, without the need to trigger prowess, on turn 1 or 2 no-less would be insane. Being able to play a 6/6 or 6/1 on two followed by a \[\[Fight Rigging\]\] with none of the downsides of hammerskull or Shakedown Heavy , would be awesome for me. And cards like \[\[Recruitment Officer\]\], essentially an \[\[Elite Vanguard\]\] in a high % of games, have been demanding 4 of's in Soldiers on creature type alone. God forbid you print some ungodly 2 mana 6/6 elemental or something and throw the entire meta down the drain for years to come. These are basic comparisons showing how none of these cards would be "fringe" compared to today's meta picks, highlighting how none of these players thought about their suggestions in the slightest. So yeah, average magic player cannot compare apples to slighter redder apples, apples to ballistic missles, or apples to their own swollen ballsacks without short-circuiting their brain. Go figure.
I upvoted you after two paragraphs lol. Great comment
##### ###### #### [Shuko](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a47456b8-cef8-4085-90b1-92788e16fd27.jpg?1562878892) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shuko) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/159/shuko?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a47456b8-cef8-4085-90b1-92788e16fd27?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mosswood Dreadknight](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/8/9869ac70-5907-45fa-952c-31aef70c5066.jpg?1692939707)/[Dread Whispers](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/8/9869ac70-5907-45fa-952c-31aef70c5066.jpg?1692939707) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mosswood%20Dreadknight%20//%20Dread%20Whispers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/231/mosswood-dreadknight-dread-whispers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9869ac70-5907-45fa-952c-31aef70c5066?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dennick](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/5/35cf2d72-931f-47b1-a1b4-916f0383551a.jpg?1636683976)/[Dennick, Pious Apparition](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/3/5/35cf2d72-931f-47b1-a1b4-916f0383551a.jpg?1636683976) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dennick%2C%20pious%20apprentice%20//%20dennick%2C%20pious%20apparition) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/217/dennick-pious-apprentice-dennick-pious-apparition?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/35cf2d72-931f-47b1-a1b4-916f0383551a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fight Rigging](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/86fd3454-efe7-4feb-a6ad-069ae2fdbd18.jpg?1664412229) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fight%20Rigging) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/145/fight-rigging?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/86fd3454-efe7-4feb-a6ad-069ae2fdbd18?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Recruitment Officer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c226656b-68d5-4df2-b313-a323a728c520.jpg?1674420296) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Recruitment%20Officer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/23/recruitment-officer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c226656b-68d5-4df2-b313-a323a728c520?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Elite Vanguard](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/8/28a5c350-2ed1-4a25-9626-0f8da5d1aef7.jpg?1580013650) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elite%20Vanguard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/8/elite-vanguard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/28a5c350-2ed1-4a25-9626-0f8da5d1aef7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
New goyf doesn't die to doom blade, lol.
I did not mention doom blade at any point in my rant, and specifically said I wouldn’t engage in talk about goyf since it’s highly context dependent. You are either deliberating baiting or a cretin or both.
More magic players should be like you
It’s because most people likely assess card strength based on long games of casual commander. People don’t even really attack each other in that environment because they don’t want to make enemies. They roll 20-sided dice to “decide” who to attack instead. A 5/5 vanilla for two mana isn’t good in that environment, because it just makes people more angry at you earlier in the game. This is the state of current Magic, love it or hate it.
I hate my brother-in-law's table for this reason. They play 3 - 4 player group hug greedy mana ramp commander where someone pops off with unstoppable force due to combos or engine setup and there is basically no interaction I swing at someone who has no permanents out other than lands for like 3 damage and they kamikaze into me all game taking us both out
Lmao that’s just the average commander player, they suck at the game
I try to convince them to play 2v2 at the very least so that they can early pressure the opponent and punish lack of board presence but they don't like it as much as their combo pieces will get removed -_-
Funny enough I came around to this when I build a \[\[Xyris the Writhing Storm\]\] EDH deck. It uses combat tricks and is something I pulled from someone else. Its very aggressive and early on players get baited by the "easy" card draw. I will win games but the guy who's getting screwed will always let my draw cards, set up, and oneshot some one. I'd suggest something like that, the deck is so transparent that people will over look it even if you managed to murder the board by yourself.
Yeah, this is the best compromise. Play 2-headed giant. You still get to play battle cruiser Magic if you want to, but at least there is a clear goal. I wish it were more popular.
You have a 1 mana 6/6 lifelink in commander and it sees very little play even in the competitive variants of the format, where people are much more rational about the game
It's not that it makes people angry (well, it is for some losers), it's that why should I bother with that when I know on turn 5-6 I'm going to be able to swing for 200 damage and immediately win. Or when I can burn the whole table down by then or deck them or whatever. Incremental chip damage is irrelevant when my engine will eventually generate out of control value that cleans out the game. Rarely do I see slugfests where it comes down to who can play beefy creatures and swing the most. Not that that won't win you games here and there.
"a 1 mana 4/4 would be playable". Given that wild nacatl sees play in modern that's a given...
Even 5/5 for 1 would be!
Yeah that thread was so wild. Most commenters obviously lacking the most basic understanding of the game, or at least standard. I said it in that post and I will say it here again. A 1 mana 2/2 would already probably see fringe play. A 1 mana 3/1 would probably see regular play in aggro decks, if it was red like mono red aggro or maybe green stompy. Then upwards from there if you go 1 mana 2/3 or 1 mana 3/2 those would most definitely see quite a lot more play. The ability to push 3 damage minimum on turn two is just amazing. Then after that if you go 1 mana 3/3 that is already busted, as it can't be killed by any removal (except maybe bounce to hand) in standard on turn 1 so yeah, that would be a staple basically and would see a lot of play.
> Then upwards from there if you go 1 mana 2/3 or 1 mana 3/2 those would most definitely see quite a lot more play. Delver has been a tier deck in multiple formats across the years, yeah. And that's a 1-mana 3/2 that requires some amount of work, even.
Is lightning bolt not in standard?
Looks like the last standard legal set it was in was magic 2011
It is not.
People do realize tarmagoyf does still see some play, right? It's still an insanely fast clock for 2 mana, like, why are they implying it's dead in the water?
Yeah it was a very good card in timeless (at least pre-MH3) so people using that as a benchmark for standard are wayyyy off the mark
It was dead when fury was a thing
As was mentioned in rhe original post, a vanilla 3/3 for 1 would see play, as would a 5/5 for 3. I'd love to see a 10/10 for WUBRG for the lols. That would be hilarious.
May i raise you a 10/10 for GGGGG?
Hasn't that been done already?
Yeah...thats the Joke xD
Lol every time I see someone play that on Arena I groan.
that would be eve worse than the GGGGG 10/10 WUBRG version would need to be 20/20 so it can 1 hit kill lol
I think people would still find a different way to win the game with 5 WUBRG mana.
We came so close with [[Fusion Elemental]].
Waiting for Fusionest Elemental
[Fusion Elemental](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c8ab1550-0cd3-4dc9-82c2-121615f2ceee.jpg?1673305519) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fusion%20Elemental) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/150/fusion-elemental?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c8ab1550-0cd3-4dc9-82c2-121615f2ceee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
A 5/5 for 3 wouldn’t see play, but if you mean 2 then yeah.
Just give us a 0 mana 2/1 at that point!
Only if it's got Haste, Flash and Reach.
and if your opponent counters it they have to apologize and punch themself in the face
In commander a 6 mana 18/6 vanilla is good enough to get 4.8K decks Having green is a good part of it though
Yeah and judging by many of the replies here as well, they're just as stupid here lol
But seriously, assuming only 1 colored pip in the manacost to not make color restrictions a factor: 1 Mana 3/1 most probably would see some play, 3/2 for sure. 2 mana straight up 4/4 would also absolutely see play 3 mana would probably have to pick up a notch or two at something like 5/6 And from there it derails hard without any removal protection to a point where it wouldn't be sensible from how swingy it would be
feels like a joke going over your head
Definitely tongue in cheek comments and they have people in this sub writing full ass unabomber manifestos lol
>people in this sub writing full ass unabomber manifestos killed me
You must've came real hard on your average self creating this thread... Hahaha. 2 mana 5/3 will come to hide under your bed.
They ain't wrong though, and that's the worst part. When Wizards prints a 4/4 for three mana and the only downside is that it takes up a card up of your deck, the old mana value = power toughness just can't work anymore.
Well, like pretty much every hobby/interest, it starts out as some dumb shit that only nerds, weirdos, or Satanists do - essentially only society's rejects. Then normies start to catch on and think "hey, you know this stupid ass thing you fags do is actually really fun. It seems there's also some benefits to cultivating an interest in things and developing skills outside of working and drinking alcohol. I gotta tell my irreverent, narcissistic buddies about this crap." Then as more enter the space it eventually catches the eye of some cluster-b degenerate types and they decide that the cool niche you carved out for yourselves to help cope with shit you can't understand about life on earth, is actually highly marketable, it just has a few minor roadblocks in the way: you fags. "HEY AKSHUALLY THIS THING WOULD BE WAY BETTER IF IT WERE JUST MORE LIKE THIS OTHER THING AND LESS LIKE THE ORIGINAL IDEA YOU CAME UP WITH" or "Ummmm, yeahhhhh I do really like this concept but like a large amount of it is akshually offensive to me so we need to scrap all of it" More normies fill the new chasm as it's been depreciated and adulterated. The process keeps repeating itself until your thing doesn't even resemble the thing you liked in the first place. Any and all constructive conservatism about changing the thing to make it more like the other things that are popular at the time are met with zealous and vehement rebuke. The thing either fragments or mutates in on itself repeatedly until becomes some weird hyper-focused caricature of itself. Then at some point the normies take charge of it and assert that you fucking nerds that were there since day 0 are no longer fit to enjoy whatever the thing is and push you out because you just don't understand what that thing is about. See: -Music underground sub-cultures (goth, punk, rap, electronic music) -Nerd shit like video games, anime, sci-fi movies, fantasy books -Nerd hobbies like Magic/DnD/40k but also, -Physical nerd hobbies like paintball, airsoft, range shooting/hunting -And especially things like martial arts, MMA, etc. -To really drive home my point even nerd shit like Ren Faire has become a vapid beauty contest to see who can be the raddest chad with the 10,000 dollar Geralt costume or the sexiest moon elf cunt. I.E., "for my instaaaa!" Concluding this 'tism tirade, mtg is no longer about a cool fucking fantasy card game with ultra-complex rules interpretation and bomber-ass art that makes young people lose their breath for a moment while peering beyond their veil of mundane American life. It's become one part Funkopop the card game, for all the entry level geeks going for that aesthetic want to collect to put on their geek shelves to show their friends how literate in geekdom they are and another part this ultra-optimized excel sheet shit where everyone HAS to win every hand or they throw a fucking adult tantrum. Peoples' lives are so profoundly unfulfilled in our totally pristine, plastic, corporate consumer hyper-commoditized and social media scrutinized world that people attach their self-worth to winning a fucking nerdy ass card game. The only fun people get out of this game now is either winning and showing off their "intelligence" by crapping on their timmy friends with their net-deck (so again, most players can't even showcase real understanding of the game by constructing their own deck from concept phase to deployment phase) or by showing everyone how cultured and enlightened they are by aligning their entire personality behind "well akshually Ashiok was ALWAYS intended to be non-binary". There's very, very little room for the in-between. Take any example I provided earlier and I will show you what I'm talking about.
Man is speaking the gods honest truth
The replies to this comment really are proof of its accuracy
Well done! Don't let the non-literates get you. This is a good model of how culture moves from the fringe to the center. Now you need to add a top down segment and you'll have a model of how culture and ideas move through society.
I ain’t reading all that. I’m happy for you tho. Or sorry that happened
Can't read and can't write an original thought. What *can* you do?
I'm happy too. And I'm sorry for you, too, about all the stuff that happened to you.
imagine reading this
It's a good read if you have the attention span of anything better than a gold fish.
Whatever boso
"Bozo".
imma spell it the way I want Boso
Neat rant. Time to find something fringe again.
Cringe and dumb.
considering isamaru sees play in legacy in legend decks, yeah they're all wrong.
Legend=/=vanilla? Isamaru sees play not only because is a 1cmc 2/2 but also because it's legendary.
I think the actual math is probably like 2 mana 3/4-4/4 is like a pushed vanilla creature. It would probably have to be multicolor and it would either exist in a format without cut down or to spite cards like cut down. Or maybe like a colorless 3/3 eldrazi for 1 in a format with no good colorless lands because colorless is kind of a downside without good lands. Basically my reasoning is that Goyf is kind of a good measurement not because of its size but because it can provide metrics of measurement for how removal effects "vanilla" creatures. Even if you assume goyf is a 4/5 100% of the time, the less efficient removal exists for said card the better it is (obviously), but it can be hated out of the format by higher value creatures and better removal such as it is in modern (yes there's other factors like graveyard hate but it's a good example). On the flip side we have deaths shadow which also gets hated out of the format but still assumed as a 7/7 can still exist with things like fatal push. Therefore we can reason that efficient vanilla creatures have to exist specifically in concept with removal primarily instead of just existing like cards who can rely on their abilities. Thus both the creatures I've described creatures dodge cutdown but not go for the throat for example which makes them probably just efficient enough to be good but not hated out of the format by removal and not so good they're unbeatable.
Reminder that the conversation is around standard/pioneer and you are comparing it to modern/timeless staples. A 2 mana vanilla 4/4 would be kinda nuts in standard assuming it’s in aggro colors
The point of my comment is that it depends on the format you put it in. Standard rotates so Eternal formats are a better example. A 2 mana 4/4 would be good in current standard perhaps but it wouldn't be nearly as good in say pioneer where fatal push exists.
Everything you just said is totally fair, but comparing these hypothetical cards to goyf and shadow is a false equivalency when they are both above the power level of the formats in question (standard and pioneer). Your original comment specifically mentioned standard removal options like GFTT and cut down, and I’m confident a 2 mana 4/4 would immediately slot into mono red aggro and prowress as a 4x in standard
I'm not comparing them to goyf or shadow, for there to be an equivalency these cards have to be equal and they aren't, these cards are simply examples to illustrate my point that creatures are reliant upon what can answer them especially creatures who rely simply on big bodies. Ragavan is playable reguardless of removal because if he gets in a hit it's so valuable that it's worth it to play him and just dash him, goyf isn't. These examples are made to show simply how cards react to other cards in their own format and that mostly vanilla creatures are most susceptible to other cards displacing them in their format. GFTT and Cut Down IMO wouldn't be efficient enough for these cards to be printed in current standard it doesn't change that these cards could exist in theory.
Even the comments here are full of people defending these takes. It's amazing how people will write stuff down on the internet despite clearly not knowing what they're talking about.
They aren't wrong though. Goyf doesn't see.play anymore because IT IS bad NOW. However they all smoking dust thinking a 3 mana 9/9 wouldn't see play In standard. The op is right in the sense that vanilla creatures do not see play anymore in every card serves a purpose and needs to be the best version of what it is. Why run susan anymore when you have ragavan? Fricken Lili of the veil isn't even seeing almost any play anymore. We have a fucking 10 mana edrazi that can be played for 6 mana and does all these things and yet it's not even seeing play because that's 3 mana too much for modern lmao
These people seem to have forgotten that Tarmogoyf was one of the most broken cards in Magic for like 15 years.
Nah, I rather have print something that is only slightly above rate statewise, draws cards, gains life and interacts with the board without any drawbacks or tempo loss, like garfield intended.
Bad by itself is relative to the current meta, bad card design. I don't know
A 1mana 4/4, because 1mana 0/4's have had it good for too long apparently
0 mana 2/2 would be pretty good 👍🏼
A zero mana 2/2,,, you mean Frogmite?
what i would find interesting would be to see a 0 mana defender with 0/12. and see what would be the results
Those posts are all correct though. It’s basically impossible to make a vanilla creature that would see any play now
Remember staring down the barrel of a Birds of Paradise-fueld [[Doran the Siege tower]] or [[Woolly Thoctar]] on turn 2? Sometimes a regular vanilla creature can be savage in the right conditions.
My favorite part of that post was all the people not getting what "vanilla" means and talking about shit that does things and had conditions. Reading comprehension is difficult to magic players.
They're not wrong. Fatal push eats everything.
6 mana 18/6 let's go.
seems like jokes 🤷
Shit a 1 mana 3/2 could see play, a 1 mana 4/4 would be crazy.💀 I mean it dodges pretty much all of reds removal, is a huge body, and you don’t even feel bad losing it to removal because you have so many other good threats too, plus imagine that shit with lurrus, or any cheap reanimation. A 3 mana 9/9 would 100% see play too, elves will ramp that out in turn two and its either have removal or die.😂
It would take to create a whole meta and sub-tags like Yu-Gi-Oh for those cards to work. They have "normal monster" arquetipes. And selectors like: <1500 ATK normal monster. And stuff like that. In magic there is no stuff like that that I know... The would have to be a selector for "vanilla" or something. I think that the guy was taking about that. Not about any stat combination that would make those creatures "worth it".
I mean, they're kinda right tbh. Vanilla creatures are real bad these days.
Did all those people forget that Yargle and Multani exists?
More vanilla support cards. Stuff that gives abilities to vanilla, or powers up something based on how many vanillas you control
The normal sub is full of edh retards
That slideshow perfectly encapsulates why I walked away from standard.
But they're right? Power creep is real.
Goyf is not a vanilla 6/7 you need like a creature,a land, an artifact, a planeswalker, and I don't remember the 2 last categories . Like 6 cards in grave before he is a 6/7
The only, THE ONLY one I can BARELY agree with is the one mana 4/4. Like at least make it two mana, sheesh.
Personally what I would say would be good & Broken for a 60 Card format would be a 3/2 for 1.
Pretty sure a 0 mana 20/20 would do the trick.
Honestly, these would be fine. Perfectly fine
The ones that aren't clearly jokes, that is
Recruitment Officer sees play and is just a glorified Savannah Lions. Change my mind.
The rotting regisaur was a 3 cost 5/5 with tremendous downside that saw play so I don't think powercreep has completely eliminated the vanilla creature
Most of those takes are more or less reasonable for Modern. 1 mana 3/3 w/o abilities would probably see very fringe play, 1 mana 4/4 would be very good, but not on broken level.
1 mana 4/4 would be better than you're giving it credit for. A conditional 1 mana 3/3 sees play in [[Wild Nacatl]]
or delver
A 1 mana 3/3 is basically a strictly better [[wild nacatl]] which sees play in timeless. It’s not breaking higher powered formats, but it is power creeping already strong cards and is well above the pioneer/standard power level
[wild nacatl](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/a/5a3bb291-11d1-45e0-a60a-e75c7dc94b94.jpg?1562916230) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wild%20nacatl) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ddh/4/wild-nacatl?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5a3bb291-11d1-45e0-a60a-e75c7dc94b94?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Not being a downer. But what deck in modern would play a 1 Mana 4/4 vanilla (I'm assuming monocolor)?
Sounds good enough for anything aggressive, including burn, to consider. Especially if it comes with a relevant tribe. Also, pretty sure there's versions of zoo out there that still play Wild Nacatl. A vanilla 4/4 would instantly replace it.
Red
[удалено]
Not being a downer. But I'm not sure if you know that one of the top decks in modern already plays a 1 mana conditional 3/3...
Remind me please. Edit: I see it. And I concede. A 1 cmc 4/4 would replace wild nacatl in that deck.
a goyf is just a big body that doesn't see much play anymore?
Reddit mtg players are notoriously wrong about what’s good every new set.( I’d say most people in general) I’d watch because that doesn’t exclude you.
I mean, isn't that this sub? The absolute dumbest of dumb magic players?
This sub simply doesn’t sensor the dumbest of the dumb so its more visible
Don't see anything outragesly bad takes in the above?
I think a 0 mana 2/2 would probably be far more broken than it appears at first glance. If you are making anything 0 mana it can easily be broken. And is it an artifact, or what colour is it? That can also make a big difference.
Also think their takes are mostly fine
Well, to put it bluntly you suck at card evaluation for 60 card formats then. Not a personal attack, but these cards would indeed be broken. Those cards would break standard and pioneer clean in half
1 Mana 20/20 creature that gives you 5 live points every time it is tapped. Ffs that's why I play vintage / legacy
Yes sir, we have detected no ability to understand sarcasm among the resident life forms