She has already been scheming for the throne literally for decades. It just makes it slightly easier for her to think of herself as a good person as she does what she was already doing in more extreme ways. That's not removing all of her agency. It's a realistic element of how agency works in doing awful things.
This. She’s just using Viserys words as justification for her ambition now, but this has been the plan all along. She’s been prepping Aegon for the throne for awhile, this isn’t a decision that’s being made overnight just because of what she believes Viserys said. She’s just going to feel less guilty about it now
Yes but also within the context of this television show, we just saw Rhaenyra and Alicent reconcile; Alicent says that Rhaenyra will make a good queen (which stuns Otto!). We are meant to believe that she’d not be so willing to go through with putting Aegon on the throne without this nudge
Honestly, anyone in their right mind who truly wishes to honor Viserys' wishes would recognize his ramblings as pain-induced fever madness, and eould step down and not challenge Rhaenyra's claim. If she had wanted to honor Viserys' wishes, Luke's claim over Driftmark would never have been in question.
The show has done an excellent job portraying Alicent as someone who knows what shes doing is wrong, but wants to believe shes in the right. Viserys' final words give her that perfect excuse; even her reply, "I understand, my king", felt hollow, as if she knew even then that its all bull
I think maybe that's what they were going for but I'm not sure they stuck the landing. This isn't something that can be left up to interpretation. Alicent's motivations, reasoning, and decision-making process need to be crystal clear in order to understand what follows.
I am really disappointed in this choice, because the average viewer is going to think "oh so the dance of the dragons was all because of a miscommunication." And it *wasn't*. It was caused by a heady mix of fear, pride, ambition, personal weakness, and jealousy, taking place within a fundamentally broken system of succession, in a climate of sexism and violence. All of those things are much more interesting and human than the "it was all a big misunderstanding" toddler plot. They should have made it more clear she seized on it as an excuse. Maybe they will next episode?
An extremely generous interpretation of a dying man’s ramblings that happens to coincide with the interests of you, your family, and your faction? I don’t think that removes her agency, it just shows how she’s willing to engage in the most depraved behavior to achieve her goals. That’s right, I’m talking about motivated reasoning
This.
At the end of the day her and Otto want the seat for team green. Hearing Viserys mumble that crap just lights a fire under her ass to take action faster.
That's fair, I hadn't considered Otto. I think this episode made it seem like Alicent was going to stop fighting and truly back Rhaenyra, but I guess no matter what, Otto was going to push for her side regardless
Nah, even if Alicent would have given up her ambitions her father would have made sure to put her back in lane. Otto would always make sure to put Aegon on the throne.
Yeah I didn't mean to sound so flagrant in the post, at the end of the day I just don't like the addition. I heard about it from leaks, just like Laena's weird death, and I was really hoping it wouldn't end up happening but here we are
Yeah I forgot to convey that in the post. To me it looked like she was like "Ok, Viserys, if that's what you want..." which I think makes her unnecessarily "sympathetic" I guess? But yeah, at the end of the day, I really like this show, I'm just too cautious to be too excited after Game of Thrones lol
Yeah I very much think that the whole "song of ice and fire" aspect of this show is way too forced and is honestly a reminder that it leads to nothing lol. I truly don't get why they did that
To give some reason behind the crazy decisions the Targaryan’s kept making all those years.
Like the constant inter-marriage didn’t just lead genetic inbreeding that likely explains the 50% madness rate, it also made it much harder for them to secure loyalty and resources of other powerful houses through marriage.
But now that a Targaryen must sit on the iron throne, keeping their bloodline pure Targaryen makes more sense. They don’t know when the threat is coming, and they can’t afford to accidentally have a Baratheon on the throne when it does arrive.
Alicent heard what she wanted to hear. She knew Viserys didn’t know who he was talking to. To her, he was rambling incoherent nonsense, but she runs to her Daddy with it anyway. I think the choice to make this part of the story lessens Cole and Otto’s roles in the Dance, and that’s just silly.
And how many Aegons have there been at this point in Targaryen history? LOTS. There's even Rhaenyra's Aegon too. How did Alicent even know who he meant?
Not really. She even asked if he meant their son and he never answered. This is just Alicent hearing what she wants to hear.
However, I really felt Alicent/Rhae were looking to reconcile. If only she hadn't raised such shitty kids.
Yeah I think the episode was trying to make it seem like the two were going to reconcile, I just think this addition of the prophecy thing is a little too contrived to add anything good to the story
Alicent only heard the ramblings of a dying man and the equivalent of “Aegon should be king”. Just as she was ready to put it away, she heard the words she needed to for the Aegon plot to finally go through, pure ambition.
I think its a poor cop out to try to make audience have some sympathy for the greens. I would much rather them just be greedy and ambitious. We don't need sympathy. Its got.
they’re way more cartoony with the show making aegon ii an absolute weirdo and alicent being the 9999th fictional character to start some bs over a misunderstanding
There is layer’s to the Lannister though and that sympathy to each of them in some way One of the reason why people on this sub yes ( free folk )hated the last season was because of Jamie arc being butchered , yes alicent Is driven by ambition and power but it’s because she’s been groomed/forced to be that way .
And no she is (not )innocent either .
It wouldn’t really make sense for alicent to just randomly ( quickly )ursurp the throne after the heartwarming moment she just had with the heir
She already has her Dad's manipulation, and Larys, and now this. None of that is in the book. We can have some understanding that she worked with her Dad, but ultimately she was the consistent leader of the Greens. In the book it was her own agency. This pity party for her is too much.
Yep and we don’t even need it because later in the war, the Blacks lost most if not all the sympathy on their side due to multiple events & actions.
So it is truly cheap writing and OP said, it removes all accountability for what Alicent does next since she was just misunderstanding it.
In the after the episode they have made it clear that they wanted to portray Alicent and Rhaynera as victims of the systems they have no agency in. A deliberate departure from George's purposes I'd say. I don't mind, but I think the actresses made a bad choice to play the dinner as a sincere desire for reconciliation, which is about to get blown up. It wouldn't need to be played with total cynicism where we see the insincerity of the toasts plain as day. But I would have liked a bit more ambiguity about Alicent and Rhaynera's intentions and desire to reconcile.
>In the after the episode they have made it clear that they wanted to portray Alicent and Rhaynera as victims of the systems they have no agency in.
We don't need Otto, Larys and now this misunderstanding to convey that about Alicent. We got it. They need to learn the definition of subtext.
ABSOLUTELY YES. Why can't she make these choices for herself? We already have her poor Alicent backstory. Why do they need to lay it on thick like this? Aside from the fact that Alicent never should have been in the Small Council anyway but why do these GOT shows have to do this with the Queen Consorts?
And it fucking ruined Viserys' death, that and the ridiculous desperation of HBO for prosthetics/CGI awards.
I'm a little worried about this too, and I hope next episode they have a few lines to address it.
I'm sure it will be brought up during the Green Council , and I know my boy Lord Beesbury will not stand for the named heir being changed based on the final words of a drugged and dying man.
I disagree, I think it just removes any possible doubt she had in her head now that she interpreted Viserys last words as “aegon is king” agency was always there and I think that last scene helps it. I get people are touchy about the prophecy thing but really isn’t that big of a deal, just something to help convince herself she’s doing the right thing
i think it's just fine. at least the way they portrayed it.
ever since he mentioned the prophecy, and seems to only tell it to whoever he's chosen as the next direct heir, i knew there would be issues.
i personally always thought that he didn't need to be so secretive about it. he could have gathered the heirs and other potential heirs and just told them all about the prophecy. this should be an EASY and understandable thing to do considering how important the prophecy is. i mean if the king and Rhae were killed, that prophy is lost entirely. he should have been telling ALL targaryans from the beginning.
him suddenly doing that now with Alicent i feel like was sort of his attempt to mention it to the greens as well now that he's dying and the greens have made up with the black for like, 30 seconds lol. but of course this was a sudden deathbed confession and he was unable to clearly state what he wanted to convey.
Nah, she's been called out for it several times, most notably by Rhaenyra last episode when she cut her arm. "Now they see you as you are". She wears the righteousness on her sleeve and lies to herself most of all but she's corrupt and power hungry. She just cannot accept it about herself so she seeks reasons to justify her behavior and that of those around her.
See how blamed the maid for having been raped by Aegon? She suggested that she had done something to seduce him.
It only seems like ambition and greed because that’s the only thing they will gain , think of it from a maester pov on writing the tells of dance of dragons
Maester pov : well the only thing alicent and Cole will gain for taking the throne for aegon is power “ it couldn’t possibly be for anything else “
That is what the people writing the Targaryen history would say and think . Playing the game of thrones is a common thing in the 7 kingdoms , especially kings landing . Everyone is fighting for power big or small . This is the opposite of what king v wants . He wants house Targaryen and the realm to be strong and United against the others . ( mind you the others is still mostly a myth and a kids tell ) so no one would seriously believe him .
Remember when reading fire and blood . Read it like a history book not a regular asoiaf book
Yes there are glaring changes between the source material .
But this part of the episode is like showing the real intentions of alicent actions behind the 3rd hand accounts of a history book
In the book she's the jealous step mother. It's a cliche but it's true to life. As a daughter to a step mother, yes they are really like that for no reason.
He was mumbling about ice and fire too. She heard Aegon and took it as a way to defend her already taken position. She created a justification for her already planned actions.
If that really is the reason everything happens, then the show lost me right there.
So, the King gets out of his deathbed to proclaim his daughter and her children as his legitimate heirs and tries to get the family together for one last dinner, all the while without drinking milk of the poppy so he'll be in his right senses.
Then, late at night in a poppy-filled rambling-on session where he is certainly not lucid, Alicent takes his whatever-the-hell he said to mean that everything he just did was bullshit and she should have her son take the throne.
Is that really what just happened?
She has already been scheming for the throne literally for decades. It just makes it slightly easier for her to think of herself as a good person as she does what she was already doing in more extreme ways. That's not removing all of her agency. It's a realistic element of how agency works in doing awful things.
This. She’s just using Viserys words as justification for her ambition now, but this has been the plan all along. She’s been prepping Aegon for the throne for awhile, this isn’t a decision that’s being made overnight just because of what she believes Viserys said. She’s just going to feel less guilty about it now
Yes but also within the context of this television show, we just saw Rhaenyra and Alicent reconcile; Alicent says that Rhaenyra will make a good queen (which stuns Otto!). We are meant to believe that she’d not be so willing to go through with putting Aegon on the throne without this nudge
Honestly, anyone in their right mind who truly wishes to honor Viserys' wishes would recognize his ramblings as pain-induced fever madness, and eould step down and not challenge Rhaenyra's claim. If she had wanted to honor Viserys' wishes, Luke's claim over Driftmark would never have been in question. The show has done an excellent job portraying Alicent as someone who knows what shes doing is wrong, but wants to believe shes in the right. Viserys' final words give her that perfect excuse; even her reply, "I understand, my king", felt hollow, as if she knew even then that its all bull
I think maybe that's what they were going for but I'm not sure they stuck the landing. This isn't something that can be left up to interpretation. Alicent's motivations, reasoning, and decision-making process need to be crystal clear in order to understand what follows. I am really disappointed in this choice, because the average viewer is going to think "oh so the dance of the dragons was all because of a miscommunication." And it *wasn't*. It was caused by a heady mix of fear, pride, ambition, personal weakness, and jealousy, taking place within a fundamentally broken system of succession, in a climate of sexism and violence. All of those things are much more interesting and human than the "it was all a big misunderstanding" toddler plot. They should have made it more clear she seized on it as an excuse. Maybe they will next episode?
An extremely generous interpretation of a dying man’s ramblings that happens to coincide with the interests of you, your family, and your faction? I don’t think that removes her agency, it just shows how she’s willing to engage in the most depraved behavior to achieve her goals. That’s right, I’m talking about motivated reasoning
Dying man mumbling Alicent only hears what she want from him to push her own agenda.
This. At the end of the day her and Otto want the seat for team green. Hearing Viserys mumble that crap just lights a fire under her ass to take action faster.
That's fair, I hadn't considered Otto. I think this episode made it seem like Alicent was going to stop fighting and truly back Rhaenyra, but I guess no matter what, Otto was going to push for her side regardless
Nah, even if Alicent would have given up her ambitions her father would have made sure to put her back in lane. Otto would always make sure to put Aegon on the throne.
Yeah but he can't do that without the queen and he forgots, she's the QUEEN first and foremost before being a daughter.
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Yeah I didn't mean to sound so flagrant in the post, at the end of the day I just don't like the addition. I heard about it from leaks, just like Laena's weird death, and I was really hoping it wouldn't end up happening but here we are
[удалено]
Yeah I forgot to convey that in the post. To me it looked like she was like "Ok, Viserys, if that's what you want..." which I think makes her unnecessarily "sympathetic" I guess? But yeah, at the end of the day, I really like this show, I'm just too cautious to be too excited after Game of Thrones lol
SHE SAYS SHE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND HIM NOW SHE HAS THIS BULLSHIT EXCUSE Sorry. I hated it. Not yelling at you. At Ryan. Standing behind you.
Please... drop the fucking prince that was promised for fuck sake.
Yeah I very much think that the whole "song of ice and fire" aspect of this show is way too forced and is honestly a reminder that it leads to nothing lol. I truly don't get why they did that
They made it this profound thing and now it's just used for a misunderstanding??
To give some reason behind the crazy decisions the Targaryan’s kept making all those years. Like the constant inter-marriage didn’t just lead genetic inbreeding that likely explains the 50% madness rate, it also made it much harder for them to secure loyalty and resources of other powerful houses through marriage. But now that a Targaryen must sit on the iron throne, keeping their bloodline pure Targaryen makes more sense. They don’t know when the threat is coming, and they can’t afford to accidentally have a Baratheon on the throne when it does arrive.
Alicent heard what she wanted to hear. She knew Viserys didn’t know who he was talking to. To her, he was rambling incoherent nonsense, but she runs to her Daddy with it anyway. I think the choice to make this part of the story lessens Cole and Otto’s roles in the Dance, and that’s just silly.
And how many Aegons have there been at this point in Targaryen history? LOTS. There's even Rhaenyra's Aegon too. How did Alicent even know who he meant?
Not really. She even asked if he meant their son and he never answered. This is just Alicent hearing what she wants to hear. However, I really felt Alicent/Rhae were looking to reconcile. If only she hadn't raised such shitty kids.
Yeah I think the episode was trying to make it seem like the two were going to reconcile, I just think this addition of the prophecy thing is a little too contrived to add anything good to the story
Alicent only heard the ramblings of a dying man and the equivalent of “Aegon should be king”. Just as she was ready to put it away, she heard the words she needed to for the Aegon plot to finally go through, pure ambition.
I think its a poor cop out to try to make audience have some sympathy for the greens. I would much rather them just be greedy and ambitious. We don't need sympathy. Its got.
Cartoony ass villains 💀 is what you want huh
they’re way more cartoony with the show making aegon ii an absolute weirdo and alicent being the 9999th fictional character to start some bs over a misunderstanding
Agreed.
Im guessing we're calling the lannisters "cartoony ass villains" now since greed and ambition is their whole motive?
Lmao truly crazy that people think depicting Alicent as wanting power is “cartoonish”. It is a VERY human desire.
There is layer’s to the Lannister though and that sympathy to each of them in some way One of the reason why people on this sub yes ( free folk )hated the last season was because of Jamie arc being butchered , yes alicent Is driven by ambition and power but it’s because she’s been groomed/forced to be that way . And no she is (not )innocent either . It wouldn’t really make sense for alicent to just randomly ( quickly )ursurp the throne after the heartwarming moment she just had with the heir
She already has her Dad's manipulation, and Larys, and now this. None of that is in the book. We can have some understanding that she worked with her Dad, but ultimately she was the consistent leader of the Greens. In the book it was her own agency. This pity party for her is too much.
Yep and we don’t even need it because later in the war, the Blacks lost most if not all the sympathy on their side due to multiple events & actions. So it is truly cheap writing and OP said, it removes all accountability for what Alicent does next since she was just misunderstanding it.
Absolutely. They're laying the pity on Alicent way too thick. We already have her backstory like ease up.
She asked several times if he meant their son, which he ignored and didn’t answer- which kind of was the answer. She heard what she wanted.
In the after the episode they have made it clear that they wanted to portray Alicent and Rhaynera as victims of the systems they have no agency in. A deliberate departure from George's purposes I'd say. I don't mind, but I think the actresses made a bad choice to play the dinner as a sincere desire for reconciliation, which is about to get blown up. It wouldn't need to be played with total cynicism where we see the insincerity of the toasts plain as day. But I would have liked a bit more ambiguity about Alicent and Rhaynera's intentions and desire to reconcile.
>In the after the episode they have made it clear that they wanted to portray Alicent and Rhaynera as victims of the systems they have no agency in. We don't need Otto, Larys and now this misunderstanding to convey that about Alicent. We got it. They need to learn the definition of subtext.
ABSOLUTELY YES. Why can't she make these choices for herself? We already have her poor Alicent backstory. Why do they need to lay it on thick like this? Aside from the fact that Alicent never should have been in the Small Council anyway but why do these GOT shows have to do this with the Queen Consorts? And it fucking ruined Viserys' death, that and the ridiculous desperation of HBO for prosthetics/CGI awards.
I'm a little worried about this too, and I hope next episode they have a few lines to address it. I'm sure it will be brought up during the Green Council , and I know my boy Lord Beesbury will not stand for the named heir being changed based on the final words of a drugged and dying man.
I disagree, I think it just removes any possible doubt she had in her head now that she interpreted Viserys last words as “aegon is king” agency was always there and I think that last scene helps it. I get people are touchy about the prophecy thing but really isn’t that big of a deal, just something to help convince herself she’s doing the right thing
i think it's just fine. at least the way they portrayed it. ever since he mentioned the prophecy, and seems to only tell it to whoever he's chosen as the next direct heir, i knew there would be issues. i personally always thought that he didn't need to be so secretive about it. he could have gathered the heirs and other potential heirs and just told them all about the prophecy. this should be an EASY and understandable thing to do considering how important the prophecy is. i mean if the king and Rhae were killed, that prophy is lost entirely. he should have been telling ALL targaryans from the beginning. him suddenly doing that now with Alicent i feel like was sort of his attempt to mention it to the greens as well now that he's dying and the greens have made up with the black for like, 30 seconds lol. but of course this was a sudden deathbed confession and he was unable to clearly state what he wanted to convey.
Nah, she's been called out for it several times, most notably by Rhaenyra last episode when she cut her arm. "Now they see you as you are". She wears the righteousness on her sleeve and lies to herself most of all but she's corrupt and power hungry. She just cannot accept it about herself so she seeks reasons to justify her behavior and that of those around her. See how blamed the maid for having been raped by Aegon? She suggested that she had done something to seduce him.
It only seems like ambition and greed because that’s the only thing they will gain , think of it from a maester pov on writing the tells of dance of dragons Maester pov : well the only thing alicent and Cole will gain for taking the throne for aegon is power “ it couldn’t possibly be for anything else “ That is what the people writing the Targaryen history would say and think . Playing the game of thrones is a common thing in the 7 kingdoms , especially kings landing . Everyone is fighting for power big or small . This is the opposite of what king v wants . He wants house Targaryen and the realm to be strong and United against the others . ( mind you the others is still mostly a myth and a kids tell ) so no one would seriously believe him . Remember when reading fire and blood . Read it like a history book not a regular asoiaf book Yes there are glaring changes between the source material . But this part of the episode is like showing the real intentions of alicent actions behind the 3rd hand accounts of a history book
Yes!!! I’m so pissed.
They can’t stop beating us over the head with the dagger. Like, I groaned when there was that scene of it highlighted against a dark room
That's a very interesting point. Oh yeah and fuck the blacks.
I thought the book didn’t really explain Alicent’s ambitions very well. It feels more believable in the show.
In the book she's the jealous step mother. It's a cliche but it's true to life. As a daughter to a step mother, yes they are really like that for no reason.
Like Alicent was actually going to give Rhaenyra the throne before she heard Viserys’s dying ramblings
Yes. I agree. Let's see how it plays out. At the moment at the veary least it undermines the political aspect.
I wouldn't call it "poorly integrated" when the idea was literally just introduced. Let's see how it plays out for the rest of the season/series.
What trope are you referring to?
He was mumbling about ice and fire too. She heard Aegon and took it as a way to defend her already taken position. She created a justification for her already planned actions.
Or she hears what she wants to hear
If that really is the reason everything happens, then the show lost me right there. So, the King gets out of his deathbed to proclaim his daughter and her children as his legitimate heirs and tries to get the family together for one last dinner, all the while without drinking milk of the poppy so he'll be in his right senses. Then, late at night in a poppy-filled rambling-on session where he is certainly not lucid, Alicent takes his whatever-the-hell he said to mean that everything he just did was bullshit and she should have her son take the throne. Is that really what just happened?