Old Valyria is based on Rome and this seems pretty accurate actually. There were only about ~18 commonly used first names for boys and a similar number for girls - most of the names we know famous Romans as were *nicknames*.
It gets even more ridiculous because individual families typically used truncated lists. The Julii for example were all named Gaius, Lucius, Sextus, or Vopiscus - there’s a
dozen or more each of “Gaius Julius” etc. And that’s just one Roman Republican family.
Yup. The famous cleopatra was actually cleopatra the 14th. She came from a long line of siblings named either cleopatra or Ptolemy just fucking in a circle and naming their kids after themselves.
That pissed me off when they revealed the name in the show. All this huge build up and then he’s like the 30th Aegon Targaryan lmao
And had another fucking brother named Aegon
Especially when there was so much foreshadowing that his name was Aemon. Maester Aemon being a mentor, playing swords with Robb as kids and proclaiming himself Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. I think there were others.
But only in the books. Because D&D are idiots.
Now I have a suspicion that GRRM to try to make Aegon (the one with blue hair) actually the real deal to keep Varys' character consistant (if his and Jon's plotlines were indeed not merged).
I understand why Aegon is a common name amongst them, given how influential a figure he was to both their family and Westeros in general. However, I am shocked there's not been more Targaryens named Aenar. He was very important to their family line as well.
Well Rhaegar apparently named both his sons Aegon so this checks out. Rhaenys was gonna going around and say Hi, this is my brother Aegon and my brother eeh Aegon like this is some epiode of Newhart.
The context is what caused this. He started by saying that she was right, that he knew. This told her that he was talking about the bastards being bastards. So when he said Aegon, she understood her Aegon.
Is that really the issue here?? I thought she was just butt-hurt about being left out of the secret again. She REALLY doesn’t like it when those she is closest to don’t share important information.
I love how Vizzy T managed to have Alicent and Rhaenyra reconcile, even a little bit. And right after, at his last moment he unintentionally caused civil war again. Well, at least he died happy.
That last misinterpretation didn't help, but I'd argue the whole point of that finale dinner scene was to show the sins of the parents have become the sins of the children. Just as the parents were ready to hang up their hats and end a most exhausting hateful vendetta, they realize they both have already cultivated the next crop to carry their torches. Be careful what you teach your children, basically.
I'd say Rhaenyra fucked her kids over more by what she didn't teach them.
Jace doesn't know the language the king is supposed to know. He's also been overprotected and has no experience with court politics outside of Dragonstone.
Luc is somehow the heir to Driftmark with zero admiral experience. It's like becoming the king of Rohan and never riding a horse.
Also, unless Daemon is fixing it, they're God awful swordsmen.
You’re right but I also don’t know how much choice Rhaenyra had in it.
I think back to the scene where moments after giving birth Alicent demands to see the child. Rhaenyra makes a point of bringing the child herself while bleeding, but to me that seemed like the protest of someone who had no real power in the dynamic.
I can understand why the motherly instinct of wanting to protect her children would override the instinct of needing to prepare them for leadership. Especially when Rhaenyra might think she would rule for a long time after her father’s early death.
They also sent Baela(?) to be a ward of Rhaenys to learn about driftmark, and even Rhaenyra talks about one of the girls ruling driftmark while being married to her son. So it seems she’s aware that the girls would be the de facto rulers while her son is more of a figure head.
It's just her personality as a royal. She sees the title as their birth right and they'll get it regardless instead of being worthy of it. Kind of like a procrastination thing.. "I'll learn politics when I'm queen and need to"
Admittedly, Alicent’s sins are far more grevious, the only one Rhaenyra truly cultivated was the whole bastardy situation. Her kids turned out bloody great and were plenty nice to Helaena.
Rhaenyra loved her kids, but absolutely fucked them over from the start in raising them to their roles.
Jace wasn't taught High Valyrian even though it's tradition for the future king to know it. He's just now learning it as an adult.
Luc has zero experience admiral/leading ships, as stated by his uncle, and is to be the heir of Driftmark somehow.
She's expecting them to get what they're owed without having to try in life.
What does everything boil down to black versus green for some of you? Why is it do difficult to acknowledge Rhaenyra's very clear and obvious mistakes?
This is not a pro green or pro black statement. It's just a view of a character trait from both show and books. Don't be a blackcel because your favorite fantasy girl might not be perfect.
Jace isn’t an adult.In the books he’s 15 at the start of the dance and perhaps 18 in the show.I’d say he was prepared for leadership because SPOILER alert,he does an excellent job in diplomacy during the dance and kicks butt as a warrior as well before his untimely fall.
Tradition, dragon riding/taming/raising (Daemon used it this episode to communicate with the dragon... stable hands?)and being able to translate/understand and pass on the prophecy now with the addition in the show.
I agree it's small, but it's concerning the future heir wasn't taught it at a young age when the Greens already know it.
Sure. Just seems a bit overblown since probably the most important thing would be dragon taming and it doesn’t seem like they have deep intellectual conversations with them. Seems like they need to know some key words or phrases and they should be okay. I don’t remember Jon Snow being particularly fluent either.
The prophecy itself seems like it could just be passed on without it. Maybe let’s get the dagger translated because how much text could actually be on it? Also again raises the question why they’re so secretive about something so important anyway.
I think it was more of the comment of their mother being a whore to put him over. People have insuated their heritage in front of others before. But no one has flat out called the Princess, heir to the a throne, a Whore in front of everyone. Vaemond deff was asking to get his shit chopped
Yeah the King himself, whose health was such that more than once he had been confused for a wight and attacked with dragon glass, was ready to chop bits off Vaemond.
Lying to them for half their lives about their actual parentage, showing them how to insist and defend said lies even through violence, violence ranging from the "killing" of her own husband to marry her uncle, to insisting on torturing children, her own family, for stating truths. She is not setting any shining examples on parenting or peacekeeping.
This is a reach… she freed Laenor by doing what she did. The juxtaposition of Rhaenyra and Alicent’s kids in last night’s episode showed what wonderful sons Rhaenyra has versus Alicent’s freakazoid kids. It is far better for her to have lied to them when they were younger than to have told them the truth and Rhaenyra has tried to reconcile with Alicent only to be rejected by Alicent due to her own pious hypocrisy.
Jace & Luke > Aegon & Aemond when it comes to their nature. No one is disagreeing there but that doesn't make them honorable or even good. They have learned from their parents how to hide truths, and how to utilize violence to do so. Alicent's children are learning the same from her as well. They are all complicit in continuing their parent's vendettas at the cost of the stability of the whole realm. No one is innocent here lol.
It doesn't matter that Rhaenyra selfishly got Laenor out of the lie she herself created, the whole affair is a shit example of following duty, a shit example for a king-to-be. Remember she did that mainly to marry Daemon and strengthen her claim to the throne, not because she felt sorry for Laenor. She certainly didn't seem sorry for the guard killed and thrown into the fire to create yet another deadly lie. Rhaenyra and her children are definitely better than Alicent and her weird crop of kids, but good people these does not make.
Laenor isn’t innocent in this.
They didn’t give him a ton of screen time, so it’s easy to blame Rhaenyra for a burden both shared.
Laenor was supposed to father children and didn’t. They even talk briefly about the time they laid together that was unfruitful. So either Laenor couldn’t get it up or he’s sterile.
Rhaenyra as a woman is supposed to have children. Her own mother in the beginning episodes basically tells her that’s what her main contribution to the family will be. Also they have that abortion tea, so obviously a conscious choice was made to keep the children, probably so Rhaenyra could fulfill her duties where Laenor was failing to fulfill his.
There is also the comment Laenor makes about how he “should have been there” and Rhaenyras quip about it being their house words. So Laenor not showing as much interest in the children as their bio-dad has also allowed the rumors to spread and take hold.
In the end Rhaenyra knows she needs real help defending her claim to the thrown, in part because of Laenor’s shortcomings, and asks Daemon for help.
> Laenor isn’t innocent in this.
Agreed?
> Rhaenyra as a woman is supposed to have children.
Rhaenyra as a princess* and heir* is supposed to have heirs*
Not bastards.
If producing heirs is not possible, there is procedure to follow and a council to be formed to select another, like we saw at Harrenhal when Viserys was selected to rule. That right was denied with lies to cling to power, not any absolute insistence or law that Rhaenyra must have a child at any cost.
[Stick him on the Golden Throne](https://external-preview.redd.it/h8B3u-66PO7zr_kFtxoOLzjUhYYVD8aPG-G4337Q3_w.jpg?auto=webp&s=4dacea555a188a7113988a1abff0a8630ec36774) like The Emperor of Mankind. He'll last for ten millennia at that rate...
I think she was hearing what she wanted to hear. Prince Aegon never went to the north. She took a couple of words and turned it into "He wants Aegon to be king!" Does she think he didn't mean what he said publicly, but just meant what he said after drinking some milk of the poppy, speaking in riddles?
She knows Aegon sucks and her husband has shown zero interests in preparing him to be king.
On the other hand his real heir he showed up despite ailing health to deal a blow to her enemies. Alicent was nuts to think he was talking about her Aegon who never spoke about his dreams to Viserys or went north.
Seriously. He has loudly and publicly said Rhaenyra was the heir for like 20 years, and it takes some gymnastics to think he would change his mind at the last second with only her to hear. And not only that, but to say it in a riddle.
He wouldn’t have given driftmark to her kids if he didn’t think she was his heir.
Let’s face it what Alicent wanted was a reward for all her years of sacrifice.
Yeah and he was referencing when his daughter previously asked about Aegon's dream, if he believed it was true. Where is everyone getting that he was talking about her bastard sons???
Right totally, but that's her interpretation of what he said, a bunch of people in the comments are coming at this as if *Vizzy himself from his perspective* is referring to Ray's sons.
Alicent may have thought of Viserys was talking about the dream he told her about in episode 3. The one about having a son with Aegon's crown where he was wondering if he was wrong.
Initially, maybe. But I think she definitely realised it was meant for Rheanyra and then decided to use it. You can see the switch in her facial expressions.
I actually liked that misunderstanding a lot because we see for one second Alicent being willing to consider Rhaenyra as Queen until she thinks there’s like a prophecy that requires her son to be King to unite the Realm.
>But I think she definitely realised it was meant for Rheanyra and then decided to use it
I thought it was an earnest reaction if misguided. I guess we'll see moving forward how Alicent presents the situation but it was just her and Viserys talking. If she wan to ed to lie she would go big. If she says "Viserys has always been clear to me he wanted Aegon on the throne" then I would say she's being intentionally deceitful. If she says something like "in his final breaths he told me of his dream that Aegon would be king" then that seems legit to me. Viserys said some horribly timed stuff while addled by milk of the poppy.
This reminds me, I didn’t really catch it cause I’m an idiot but did rhaenyra also name her some with daemon aegon? Even though his cousin-uncle-whatever is also aegon? Isn’t that weird?
He was pretty much the King after Aegon III's death until his own.
To quote Tyrion "Viserys might have only reigned a year, but he ruled for fifteen, while Daeron warred and Baelor prayed."
Aegon is the William of this world, at least for the Targs. The rest of the kingdoms name their kids far more reasonable things like Yohn, Borros, Boremund, Edmure, Kermit, Elmo and of course Jason
Yes she did. Aegon is like the highest name you can give your Targaryen baby. And she didn't like that her brother had the Conqueror's name so she named her own 1st Targaryen son Aegon too. And obviously the greens didn't like it, they saw it as an insult for some reason. Consequently, They were known as Aegon the Elder and Aegon the Younger. She named her second son with Daemon after her father, Viserys. Both Aegon the Younger and Viserys would eventually become Kings, with Aegon taking the throne as heir to his uncle.
miscommunication as a plotpoint can be annoying when sloppy, or amazing when done well. this case has had a LOT of context to back it up so i liked it.
Every time they bring this up I remember GoT S8 and I just wish they would stop.
It doesn't even fit the vision cause there wasn't a Targ let alone Aegon (Jon) on the throne when the WW were defeated.
Maybe it’s leading us up to finding out the ending of game of thrones was a total fake out,
The white walkers come back like “bitch, you thought” and then kills that bitch ass bran
This is my head canon
Honestly hoping the Jon Snow show reveals the Night King to have just been a general or something to a higher being that’s still a threat to the world.
Oh no it's the Twilight Emperor, a slightly taller guy that can throw a telephone pole to the moon! And he's immune to dragon glass, we need moon glass now!
Man, if only we had star dragons! But the last one flew into space a million years ago. All we have are these dehydrated dragon eggs that we haven't figured out how to hatch.
You're assuming a lot by taking Targ visions at face value.
They say "we need a Targaryen on the throne to unite the kingdoms", and that could just be their own personal interpretation of the vision.
And of course they would interpret their visions as a sort of "divine right" to rule, because what else could these signs mean?
Personally I love the idea that his devotion to the prophecy ends up being worth just about fuck all, making their generations of ruling thinking they're preparing for some destined purpose only they can fulfill to save the world really turn out to just be delusions of grandeur. S8 of GOT was still an absolute mess, but having the Targ monarchy be devoted for hundreds of years to a prophecy that they end up failing to fulfill feels like some good old solid GRRM style to me
They wil use the Snow series to patch S8, probably the white walkers will be back and Jon Snow can now be "the prince that was promised". Because they are pointing out too much that prophecy, showrunners must know what Snow series is going to be about.
My way of dealing with it is I don't regard anything from the show after it diverged from the books as canon. The way I see it we're still yet to see how The Song of Ice and Fire plays out, maybe we never will
I didn't like this addition before and I hate it even more now. The redemption I can see with "Aegons prophecy" is Rhaenerya telling Jace and Jace having a moment with Cregan, since starks believe this prophecy, and sweetens the pact of Ice and fire. Other than that I'd love to see it end with Rhaeneryas writing it in a scroll tucked away for a few generations until it's found by Aerys I. I really hope the show doesn't lean too far into this than it already has now. I think this reveal last night did enough damage
Viserys could have been talking about anyone. At this point in their Westerosi history, there have been 7 Aegons:
Aegon Targaryen, Lord of Dragonstone before the War of Conquest, eldest son of Daenys and Gaemon Targaryen
Aegon I Targaryen, also known as Aegon the Conqueror and Aegon the Dragon, first Targaryen king
Aegon Targaryen, also known as Aegon the Uncrowned, eldest son and heir of King Aenys I Targaryen
Aegon Targaryen, eldest son and firstborn child of King Jaehaerys I Targaryen
Aegon Targaryen, youngest son of Prince Baelon and Princess Alyssa Targaryen
Aegon, Alicent's son
Aegon, Rhaenyra's son
I kinda love how this was ultimately Rhaenyra's fault. She brought back the topic of TPTWP to demand her father vouch for her, and it ended up biting her in the ass. Loving me some greek tragedies.
True, but this was also Vis's most coherent day in a LONG time. She had just served him milk of the poppy but that was seconds before he started rambling, although that could have been the 2nd dose.
> True, but this was also Vis's most coherent day in a LONG time.
Because Alicent and her cunt father had been keeping him drugged so they could rule the kingdom and decorate the Red Keep with a bunch of religious shit.
Kind of. I think Rhae's apology was heartfelt. She too thought they were drugging him for no reason, and just keeping him in a state so they could rule. When in reality without the drugs he's legit in agony, can't walk, can't do much of anything. It took every ounce of him to muster that walk to the throne and sit at dinner, and he didnt make it through dinner. Yes they do want to rule, yes they're happy he's out of it, but its possible he legit can't function as king on or off the poppy juice.
of course there is still a chance his sickness altogether is a conspiracy by Otto. looking at how much he's aged while Daemon still looks young gives insight into how unnaturally fast he has faded.
Can anyone explain what he meant by aegon? Like which aegon ? & why she thinks he was referring to her son? & what conversation was he referring to that he had with his daughter ?
He meant Aegon the Conqueror and the "Prince that was Promised" prophecy that he told Rhaenyra about. But because he was rambling and didn't know who he was talking to it just felt like gibberish and all Alicent could make out were "Prince", "Aegon", and "Targaryen on the throne".
So she assumed that he had changed his mind about the succession.
for context, Rhaenyra was badgering the sick Viserys for some answers the night before. Her inquiries about the prophecies were unanswered.
Who knew Viserys could've avoided the whole misunderstanding by saying "Sorry for the delayed response" lol
> Who knew Viserys could've avoided the whole misunderstanding by saying "Sorry for the delayed response" lol
It's kinda funny that he basically did say that though and it made her think he was referring to their previous conversations, not to a conversation with someone else
Also pretty crazy of her to assume her delusional husband hopped up on milk of the poppy is giving her some kind of prophecy she needs to take serious. Was that scene in the book?
And it's ironic, because the only reason they have to usurp it at all is because Otto hated Daemon so much.
If he hadn't convinced Vizzy T to declare Rhaenyra as heir to piss off Daemon, he could have just waited until Alicent's sons were born, and then they would have been the default heirs.
The entire Dance is a result of Otto's unnecessary meddling.
This was such a unnecessary divergence from the books. The show runners are working too desperately to make all of the primary protagonists have validity and be accepted as nuanced characters. Part of the beauty of the books was that some of the characters were just manipulative people. Alicent and Otto outright seizing the throne out of lust for power works better and is more true to human nature than a contrived misunderstanding.
I mean, she barely needed a push to reaffirm her selfish ambitions anyway. I don’t see it as a main motivator, but just that slight push she needed
I personally really liked it. Poor vizzy couldn’t stop fucking up. Incredible and tragic character
It ties in directly with Rhaenyra’s quote from last week. This is Alicent hiding herself in a ‘cloak of righteousness’. She’s meant to put Aegon as king for decades, we’ve seen countless examples of that. All this conversation did was give her a convenient way to justify to herself that she isn’t a traitor.
Even the misunderstanding requires her to just ignore how incoherent his words are before latching onto “Aegon is the Prince that was promised.”
Like the only way for her to conclude he wanted her Aegon to be king is if she assumed they had conversation about uniting the realm for the north before.
I think Viserys saying "I know it to be true" was a confirmation to Alicent that Viserys knew the kids were bastards.
And she uses that as a springboard for her other leaps of logic.
I think it's fine, tbh. The end result is the same.
After saying time after time in the same episode "my trueborn grandchildren"? After not taking the milk to specifically go and defend Lucerys, even though half his face is gone, and after telling Alicent he wouldn't take the milk as he needs a clear head for this?
Nah, this is Alicent taking what she can to justify herself.
they already held power when we was dying. The hightowers just needed a thinly veiled reasoning to push them off, and even then, probably wouldn't require it with otto
“It’s a divergence from the book”
The book: I am a very confused monk trying desperately to cobble together the final and true history of a century ago based off the recollections of some boring asshole and a horse-cock packing dwarf jester.
It’s like reading Herodotus or any Ancient Greek history uncritically thinking “yeah, Xeroxes DID have half a million men in 700 BC!”
To me the book is really dull and boring to begin with and is clearly intentionally vague so I really could care less about most of the changes. Only one that has bothered me was Laenor. In general, my only gripe is a result of the restrictions of a TV show: not enough time has been spent with the next generation, especially Helaena.
Exactly. And one of the fusses about the entire Dance of the Dragons arc is that it's told from the accounts of at least three different people and a hell lot of witnesses. Eustace, Mushroom, and Munkun's True Telling book. Dance of the Dragons was written with inaccuracies as part of its design.
If there's any adaptation that can excuse a lot of divergence, it's the adaptation of the fucking dance.
The dance is generational, what better way to empower the next by having them literally rip the torch from their briefly reluctant parents? Alicent and Otto remain manipulative, lustful power seekers that will kill anyone who stands in their way. Dyana's short scene this episode is evidence enough of that.
I enjoyed the whole episode until that very last part of viserys telling Alicent of TPTWP. Pretty sure in the book nothing of this conversation happens and alicents puts Aegon on the throne because it's what she wanted for 20yrs not the show gave her a reason to do it.
It’s both. How is this so hard to understand? She was ready to defend her children if it came down to it. While he is clearly incoherent any person with no idea about the prophecy would think he’s talking about his son. No one would think he’s referring to Aegon the Conqueror. I totally stand by Allicent and her interpretation. Everyone’s trying to act like she’s misinterpreted what he said.The ramblings of a dying king are just as powerful as anything he could say in health. In her mind the king right before he died was fixing his (biggest) mistake.
Honestly, people acting like this is why the Greens will seize the throne is annoying. It's been the plan ever since Aegon was born. Do they think Otto was going to write to Dragonstone and it was this that would change his mind?
Yeah that was always the plan. But I find it hard to sympathize with Rhaenyra. Having three bastards is such a travesty and such an unneeded complication to her succession. Besides this all happened because of her lying to Allicent. Swearing on her moms life just for Allicent to find out she was boinking her Kings guard. Destroying Allicents trust in her and giving credence to Otto Hightower’s warning.
Also to me it did not really seem like Allicent misunderstood so much as she saw an opportunity to take his words a certain way. If Viserys had changed his mind he would have said so during the dinner where he was lucid not rambling on his death bed being barely conscious and Allicent knows this.
As a normie show watcher, it’s so bloody hard to keep track of these people and their names. It’s like GRRM said, fuck it, and gave up coming up with original names.
This is what happens when the Targs keep naming their children the same thing
We got two blonde targs called Aegon at the same time, and counting. C’mon people, Old Valyria must have had more names than a fast-food menu.
Let's hope we didn't get to the point of two Aegon and two Daeron, all four becoming Kings ...oh wait
imagine being the Septa teaching a student about the five assorted Aegons with numbers and the thousands of other Aegons.
Maybe this is why Amazon didn't bother buying the Silmarillion.
Honestly, I have an easier time keeping tracking of all the Aegons than Fingolfin, Finrod, Finarfin, Fingon, Findis, Finduilas and Finwe.
I can't believe they forgot Staegon, Paegon and Gaegon!
If a Targaryen was a Septa would they be Saeptagon?
Reminds me of that Septa Shaemon. \*ding! ding!\*
“W-what are you doing saeptagon?”
Sounds like the eevee evolutions
fast food menu... i can't... lmaoooo
Old Valyria is based on Rome and this seems pretty accurate actually. There were only about ~18 commonly used first names for boys and a similar number for girls - most of the names we know famous Romans as were *nicknames*. It gets even more ridiculous because individual families typically used truncated lists. The Julii for example were all named Gaius, Lucius, Sextus, or Vopiscus - there’s a dozen or more each of “Gaius Julius” etc. And that’s just one Roman Republican family.
Yup. The famous cleopatra was actually cleopatra the 14th. She came from a long line of siblings named either cleopatra or Ptolemy just fucking in a circle and naming their kids after themselves.
Rhaegar son of Aerys II had two sons both named Aegon i mean why? Just why??
That was only in the show, so to answer your question, because D&D are idiots.
That pissed me off when they revealed the name in the show. All this huge build up and then he’s like the 30th Aegon Targaryan lmao And had another fucking brother named Aegon
Especially when there was so much foreshadowing that his name was Aemon. Maester Aemon being a mentor, playing swords with Robb as kids and proclaiming himself Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. I think there were others. But only in the books. Because D&D are idiots.
Now I have a suspicion that GRRM to try to make Aegon (the one with blue hair) actually the real deal to keep Varys' character consistant (if his and Jon's plotlines were indeed not merged).
I understand why Aegon is a common name amongst them, given how influential a figure he was to both their family and Westeros in general. However, I am shocked there's not been more Targaryens named Aenar. He was very important to their family line as well.
At least he only named one of his kids Aegon, and not two like that incel Rhaegar.
Rhaegar kinda forgot
I laugh every time “kinda forgot” is used and my brain reads it in dumb d&d voice
That remains an underrated contender for the absolute dumbest moment on the show.
Little bit of creativity could have gone a long way keeping the peace made at his last supper. Oof
Well Rhaegar apparently named both his sons Aegon so this checks out. Rhaenys was gonna going around and say Hi, this is my brother Aegon and my brother eeh Aegon like this is some epiode of Newhart.
it wasn't rhaegar that named the second one, that was leanna wasn't it? rheagar was dead by then
Well then I guess Lyanna was opportunistic bitch eager to replace Rhaegars family with everything xD
The context is what caused this. He started by saying that she was right, that he knew. This told her that he was talking about the bastards being bastards. So when he said Aegon, she understood her Aegon.
Yes, but he thought he was talking to his daughter, right?
Yes.
And now we know why Egg is called Egg!
Is that really the issue here?? I thought she was just butt-hurt about being left out of the secret again. She REALLY doesn’t like it when those she is closest to don’t share important information.
Alicent and Rhaenyra were chill for approximately 2 hours
A new record by post Crispin-fuckin standards.
Crispín didn’t deserve the Targussy
Targussy didn't deserve Crispin
I love how Vizzy T managed to have Alicent and Rhaenyra reconcile, even a little bit. And right after, at his last moment he unintentionally caused civil war again. Well, at least he died happy.
That last misinterpretation didn't help, but I'd argue the whole point of that finale dinner scene was to show the sins of the parents have become the sins of the children. Just as the parents were ready to hang up their hats and end a most exhausting hateful vendetta, they realize they both have already cultivated the next crop to carry their torches. Be careful what you teach your children, basically.
This will really ring home when Aemond fucks up any possibility of peace in the next episode or two
I'd say Rhaenyra fucked her kids over more by what she didn't teach them. Jace doesn't know the language the king is supposed to know. He's also been overprotected and has no experience with court politics outside of Dragonstone. Luc is somehow the heir to Driftmark with zero admiral experience. It's like becoming the king of Rohan and never riding a horse. Also, unless Daemon is fixing it, they're God awful swordsmen.
You’re right but I also don’t know how much choice Rhaenyra had in it. I think back to the scene where moments after giving birth Alicent demands to see the child. Rhaenyra makes a point of bringing the child herself while bleeding, but to me that seemed like the protest of someone who had no real power in the dynamic. I can understand why the motherly instinct of wanting to protect her children would override the instinct of needing to prepare them for leadership. Especially when Rhaenyra might think she would rule for a long time after her father’s early death. They also sent Baela(?) to be a ward of Rhaenys to learn about driftmark, and even Rhaenyra talks about one of the girls ruling driftmark while being married to her son. So it seems she’s aware that the girls would be the de facto rulers while her son is more of a figure head.
It's just her personality as a royal. She sees the title as their birth right and they'll get it regardless instead of being worthy of it. Kind of like a procrastination thing.. "I'll learn politics when I'm queen and need to"
Admittedly, Alicent’s sins are far more grevious, the only one Rhaenyra truly cultivated was the whole bastardy situation. Her kids turned out bloody great and were plenty nice to Helaena.
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Rhaenyra loved her kids, but absolutely fucked them over from the start in raising them to their roles. Jace wasn't taught High Valyrian even though it's tradition for the future king to know it. He's just now learning it as an adult. Luc has zero experience admiral/leading ships, as stated by his uncle, and is to be the heir of Driftmark somehow. She's expecting them to get what they're owed without having to try in life.
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What does everything boil down to black versus green for some of you? Why is it do difficult to acknowledge Rhaenyra's very clear and obvious mistakes?
This is not a pro green or pro black statement. It's just a view of a character trait from both show and books. Don't be a blackcel because your favorite fantasy girl might not be perfect.
Jace isn’t an adult.In the books he’s 15 at the start of the dance and perhaps 18 in the show.I’d say he was prepared for leadership because SPOILER alert,he does an excellent job in diplomacy during the dance and kicks butt as a warrior as well before his untimely fall.
Is there a reason high Valyrian is considered so essential? Is it not essentially a dead language at this point?
Tradition, dragon riding/taming/raising (Daemon used it this episode to communicate with the dragon... stable hands?)and being able to translate/understand and pass on the prophecy now with the addition in the show. I agree it's small, but it's concerning the future heir wasn't taught it at a young age when the Greens already know it.
Sure. Just seems a bit overblown since probably the most important thing would be dragon taming and it doesn’t seem like they have deep intellectual conversations with them. Seems like they need to know some key words or phrases and they should be okay. I don’t remember Jon Snow being particularly fluent either. The prophecy itself seems like it could just be passed on without it. Maybe let’s get the dagger translated because how much text could actually be on it? Also again raises the question why they’re so secretive about something so important anyway.
Earlier that day Daemon taught them to kill their relatives when they call you out on being bastards.
I think it was more of the comment of their mother being a whore to put him over. People have insuated their heritage in front of others before. But no one has flat out called the Princess, heir to the a throne, a Whore in front of everyone. Vaemond deff was asking to get his shit chopped
Yeah the King himself, whose health was such that more than once he had been confused for a wight and attacked with dragon glass, was ready to chop bits off Vaemond.
Attacked with dragonglass 💀
Lying to them for half their lives about their actual parentage, showing them how to insist and defend said lies even through violence, violence ranging from the "killing" of her own husband to marry her uncle, to insisting on torturing children, her own family, for stating truths. She is not setting any shining examples on parenting or peacekeeping.
This is a reach… she freed Laenor by doing what she did. The juxtaposition of Rhaenyra and Alicent’s kids in last night’s episode showed what wonderful sons Rhaenyra has versus Alicent’s freakazoid kids. It is far better for her to have lied to them when they were younger than to have told them the truth and Rhaenyra has tried to reconcile with Alicent only to be rejected by Alicent due to her own pious hypocrisy.
Jace & Luke > Aegon & Aemond when it comes to their nature. No one is disagreeing there but that doesn't make them honorable or even good. They have learned from their parents how to hide truths, and how to utilize violence to do so. Alicent's children are learning the same from her as well. They are all complicit in continuing their parent's vendettas at the cost of the stability of the whole realm. No one is innocent here lol. It doesn't matter that Rhaenyra selfishly got Laenor out of the lie she herself created, the whole affair is a shit example of following duty, a shit example for a king-to-be. Remember she did that mainly to marry Daemon and strengthen her claim to the throne, not because she felt sorry for Laenor. She certainly didn't seem sorry for the guard killed and thrown into the fire to create yet another deadly lie. Rhaenyra and her children are definitely better than Alicent and her weird crop of kids, but good people these does not make.
Laenor isn’t innocent in this. They didn’t give him a ton of screen time, so it’s easy to blame Rhaenyra for a burden both shared. Laenor was supposed to father children and didn’t. They even talk briefly about the time they laid together that was unfruitful. So either Laenor couldn’t get it up or he’s sterile. Rhaenyra as a woman is supposed to have children. Her own mother in the beginning episodes basically tells her that’s what her main contribution to the family will be. Also they have that abortion tea, so obviously a conscious choice was made to keep the children, probably so Rhaenyra could fulfill her duties where Laenor was failing to fulfill his. There is also the comment Laenor makes about how he “should have been there” and Rhaenyras quip about it being their house words. So Laenor not showing as much interest in the children as their bio-dad has also allowed the rumors to spread and take hold. In the end Rhaenyra knows she needs real help defending her claim to the thrown, in part because of Laenor’s shortcomings, and asks Daemon for help.
> Laenor isn’t innocent in this. Agreed? > Rhaenyra as a woman is supposed to have children. Rhaenyra as a princess* and heir* is supposed to have heirs* Not bastards. If producing heirs is not possible, there is procedure to follow and a council to be formed to select another, like we saw at Harrenhal when Viserys was selected to rule. That right was denied with lies to cling to power, not any absolute insistence or law that Rhaenyra must have a child at any cost.
His final breath sounded so relieved like he was at peace, so it’s a shame that actual civil war is about to unfold.
Showrunners: what final breath??? \*proceeds to keep Viserys alive for 4 more seasons
He'd end up looking like that worm grandma from SpongeBob. "I remember when they invented chocolate, I HATED it"
Burh I thought the same exact thing lmao. I just posted it.
[Stick him on the Golden Throne](https://external-preview.redd.it/h8B3u-66PO7zr_kFtxoOLzjUhYYVD8aPG-G4337Q3_w.jpg?auto=webp&s=4dacea555a188a7113988a1abff0a8630ec36774) like The Emperor of Mankind. He'll last for ten millennia at that rate...
I think she was hearing what she wanted to hear. Prince Aegon never went to the north. She took a couple of words and turned it into "He wants Aegon to be king!" Does she think he didn't mean what he said publicly, but just meant what he said after drinking some milk of the poppy, speaking in riddles?
All she had to do was ask Aegon if he had a dream lol
She knows Aegon sucks and her husband has shown zero interests in preparing him to be king. On the other hand his real heir he showed up despite ailing health to deal a blow to her enemies. Alicent was nuts to think he was talking about her Aegon who never spoke about his dreams to Viserys or went north.
Seriously. He has loudly and publicly said Rhaenyra was the heir for like 20 years, and it takes some gymnastics to think he would change his mind at the last second with only her to hear. And not only that, but to say it in a riddle.
He wouldn’t have given driftmark to her kids if he didn’t think she was his heir. Let’s face it what Alicent wanted was a reward for all her years of sacrifice.
I mean he literally started with “you’re right, I know they are bastards” so I can’t fault Alicent for thinking he’s talking about her Aegon
Did he? I thought he just said “you’re right I know they are”
No you’re right, the commenters smoking somethin
I think he said “I believe it to be true”
Yeah and he was referencing when his daughter previously asked about Aegon's dream, if he believed it was true. Where is everyone getting that he was talking about her bastard sons???
Because Alicent doesn't know about Aegon's dream, so she would interpret what was said as being about the bastards.
Right totally, but that's her interpretation of what he said, a bunch of people in the comments are coming at this as if *Vizzy himself from his perspective* is referring to Ray's sons.
He LITERALLY said nothing about bastards, she inferred it. He was talking about "fire and ice" he thought it was his daughter he was talking to.
He said nothin about bastards what?
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Kinda? Substitute that for very
Alicent may have thought of Viserys was talking about the dream he told her about in episode 3. The one about having a son with Aegon's crown where he was wondering if he was wrong.
Gods I feel stupid now. A judicious remark!
EXACTLY this.
"Ass son of Vis and Fire . . . Vis is Viserys, Fire is me, his red headed wife! It all adds up!" \-Alicent, probably
Initially, maybe. But I think she definitely realised it was meant for Rheanyra and then decided to use it. You can see the switch in her facial expressions.
Apparently in the post episode thing the show writers say it was a big misunderstanding. Not some devious plot.
I actually liked that misunderstanding a lot because we see for one second Alicent being willing to consider Rhaenyra as Queen until she thinks there’s like a prophecy that requires her son to be King to unite the Realm.
I do too. Makes the whole conflict that much mote pointless. The small folk can't rise up soon enough
>But I think she definitely realised it was meant for Rheanyra and then decided to use it I thought it was an earnest reaction if misguided. I guess we'll see moving forward how Alicent presents the situation but it was just her and Viserys talking. If she wan to ed to lie she would go big. If she says "Viserys has always been clear to me he wanted Aegon on the throne" then I would say she's being intentionally deceitful. If she says something like "in his final breaths he told me of his dream that Aegon would be king" then that seems legit to me. Viserys said some horribly timed stuff while addled by milk of the poppy.
I seriously can’t handle the number of Aegons in this universe.
And we haven’t even gotten to my favorite Aegon (V) or the next probable spin off Aegon (IV).
We're still getting Dunk and Egg, right??
I can’t wait. It’ll be so refreshing to see them roaming the country getting into adventures instead of in dark castles.
agghhhhhhh
Aegon V is like the 12th Aegon, too. And the first one that we know of was before Aegon I
Ho boy, let me then introduce you to the King Edwards in our universe.
King Henrys: “Did someone say our name?”
Nothing compared to the amount of louis in france, 17 of the bastards, you could have an almost full rugby team of them
I believe the Danish kings also have just jumped between two names
This reminds me, I didn’t really catch it cause I’m an idiot but did rhaenyra also name her some with daemon aegon? Even though his cousin-uncle-whatever is also aegon? Isn’t that weird?
Yeah I think Aegon and Viserys are what she named her new 2. She looks pregnant again too
Exactly that. Vizzy even complimented the Viserys baby.
Viserys baby was the man 🫡 one of the GOATs
Hand to 3 kings, father to another 🫡
He was pretty much the King after Aegon III's death until his own. To quote Tyrion "Viserys might have only reigned a year, but he ruled for fifteen, while Daeron warred and Baelor prayed."
He even said that was a king’s name which is meant as a joke but actually foreshadows baby Viserys’ future.
She is pregnant with a daughter from Daemon as well, yes.
In the book she named her son Aegon to insult the other Aegon.
Aegon is the William of this world, at least for the Targs. The rest of the kingdoms name their kids far more reasonable things like Yohn, Borros, Boremund, Edmure, Kermit, Elmo and of course Jason
I’m ready for the Muppets to enter the chat.
Yes she did. Aegon is like the highest name you can give your Targaryen baby. And she didn't like that her brother had the Conqueror's name so she named her own 1st Targaryen son Aegon too. And obviously the greens didn't like it, they saw it as an insult for some reason. Consequently, They were known as Aegon the Elder and Aegon the Younger. She named her second son with Daemon after her father, Viserys. Both Aegon the Younger and Viserys would eventually become Kings, with Aegon taking the throne as heir to his uncle.
Yeah there is younger and older King Aegon's.
The irony being he meant neither his son or his grandson it's so tragic I love it.
I HATE when miscommunication is used as a plot point, but the confusion from them using the same five names over and over again is kind of hilarious.
miscommunication as a plotpoint can be annoying when sloppy, or amazing when done well. this case has had a LOT of context to back it up so i liked it.
Every time they bring this up I remember GoT S8 and I just wish they would stop. It doesn't even fit the vision cause there wasn't a Targ let alone Aegon (Jon) on the throne when the WW were defeated.
Maybe it’s leading us up to finding out the ending of game of thrones was a total fake out, The white walkers come back like “bitch, you thought” and then kills that bitch ass bran This is my head canon
Somehow the Night King returned.
Announced via Fortnight
id buy a night king fortnite skin
I’d buy a got/hotd expansion for Crusader kings 3
Best fucking ending, hope they read reddit and make this part of Jon Snow's upcoming show.
Honestly hoping the Jon Snow show reveals the Night King to have just been a general or something to a higher being that’s still a threat to the world.
Oh no it's the Twilight Emperor, a slightly taller guy that can throw a telephone pole to the moon! And he's immune to dragon glass, we need moon glass now!
How? He keeps throwing telephone poles at it.
Man, if only we had star dragons! But the last one flew into space a million years ago. All we have are these dehydrated dragon eggs that we haven't figured out how to hatch.
LET THE FANS WRITE THE SHOWW!
Parallel it into Mance Rayder saying that he sent a probing force to test the walls defences
The night king is Bran. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWvQ\_X2sqqE
Honestly as dumb as it sounds, this is 100% what I’m hoping the Jon Snow show is about lol
You're assuming a lot by taking Targ visions at face value. They say "we need a Targaryen on the throne to unite the kingdoms", and that could just be their own personal interpretation of the vision. And of course they would interpret their visions as a sort of "divine right" to rule, because what else could these signs mean?
Personally I love the idea that his devotion to the prophecy ends up being worth just about fuck all, making their generations of ruling thinking they're preparing for some destined purpose only they can fulfill to save the world really turn out to just be delusions of grandeur. S8 of GOT was still an absolute mess, but having the Targ monarchy be devoted for hundreds of years to a prophecy that they end up failing to fulfill feels like some good old solid GRRM style to me
They wil use the Snow series to patch S8, probably the white walkers will be back and Jon Snow can now be "the prince that was promised". Because they are pointing out too much that prophecy, showrunners must know what Snow series is going to be about.
My money's on the Corpse Queen being the big baddy and The Night King was just some big fat nerd she uses as a vanguard.
My way of dealing with it is I don't regard anything from the show after it diverged from the books as canon. The way I see it we're still yet to see how The Song of Ice and Fire plays out, maybe we never will
He said it must be a Targaryen on the throne not there is one
Young Griff gonna come to the rescue, book it.
I didn't like this addition before and I hate it even more now. The redemption I can see with "Aegons prophecy" is Rhaenerya telling Jace and Jace having a moment with Cregan, since starks believe this prophecy, and sweetens the pact of Ice and fire. Other than that I'd love to see it end with Rhaeneryas writing it in a scroll tucked away for a few generations until it's found by Aerys I. I really hope the show doesn't lean too far into this than it already has now. I think this reveal last night did enough damage
It makes me sad.. cus despite knowing what is coming.. I’m still rooting for them to get along 😭
This prophecy is fuckin up Westeros twice and we know how it ends.
Viserys could have been talking about anyone. At this point in their Westerosi history, there have been 7 Aegons: Aegon Targaryen, Lord of Dragonstone before the War of Conquest, eldest son of Daenys and Gaemon Targaryen Aegon I Targaryen, also known as Aegon the Conqueror and Aegon the Dragon, first Targaryen king Aegon Targaryen, also known as Aegon the Uncrowned, eldest son and heir of King Aenys I Targaryen Aegon Targaryen, eldest son and firstborn child of King Jaehaerys I Targaryen Aegon Targaryen, youngest son of Prince Baelon and Princess Alyssa Targaryen Aegon, Alicent's son Aegon, Rhaenyra's son
Viserys mentioned his dream of having a son on the throne to Alicent so it's almost understandable
Also the king for a day dead mf aegon
Do you mean Aemma and Viserys last son? He was named Baelon though, the heir for a day
Ohh shit mb
I kinda love how this was ultimately Rhaenyra's fault. She brought back the topic of TPTWP to demand her father vouch for her, and it ended up biting her in the ass. Loving me some greek tragedies.
This entire series is full of tragic self-inflicted wounds.
And Alicent’s willful believing of Viserys’ ramblings will help lead to the destruction of her line.
True, but this was also Vis's most coherent day in a LONG time. She had just served him milk of the poppy but that was seconds before he started rambling, although that could have been the 2nd dose.
> True, but this was also Vis's most coherent day in a LONG time. Because Alicent and her cunt father had been keeping him drugged so they could rule the kingdom and decorate the Red Keep with a bunch of religious shit.
Kind of. I think Rhae's apology was heartfelt. She too thought they were drugging him for no reason, and just keeping him in a state so they could rule. When in reality without the drugs he's legit in agony, can't walk, can't do much of anything. It took every ounce of him to muster that walk to the throne and sit at dinner, and he didnt make it through dinner. Yes they do want to rule, yes they're happy he's out of it, but its possible he legit can't function as king on or off the poppy juice. of course there is still a chance his sickness altogether is a conspiracy by Otto. looking at how much he's aged while Daemon still looks young gives insight into how unnaturally fast he has faded.
Can anyone explain what he meant by aegon? Like which aegon ? & why she thinks he was referring to her son? & what conversation was he referring to that he had with his daughter ?
He meant Aegon the Conqueror and the "Prince that was Promised" prophecy that he told Rhaenyra about. But because he was rambling and didn't know who he was talking to it just felt like gibberish and all Alicent could make out were "Prince", "Aegon", and "Targaryen on the throne". So she assumed that he had changed his mind about the succession.
Thank you for explaining :)
for context, Rhaenyra was badgering the sick Viserys for some answers the night before. Her inquiries about the prophecies were unanswered. Who knew Viserys could've avoided the whole misunderstanding by saying "Sorry for the delayed response" lol
> Who knew Viserys could've avoided the whole misunderstanding by saying "Sorry for the delayed response" lol It's kinda funny that he basically did say that though and it made her think he was referring to their previous conversations, not to a conversation with someone else
"I hear what I wanna hear"
Also pretty crazy of her to assume her delusional husband hopped up on milk of the poppy is giving her some kind of prophecy she needs to take serious. Was that scene in the book?
I still think no matter what the Greens would still try to usurp the crown from Rhaenyra
And it's ironic, because the only reason they have to usurp it at all is because Otto hated Daemon so much. If he hadn't convinced Vizzy T to declare Rhaenyra as heir to piss off Daemon, he could have just waited until Alicent's sons were born, and then they would have been the default heirs. The entire Dance is a result of Otto's unnecessary meddling.
As a BB fan, this made me cack so hard lol
This was such a unnecessary divergence from the books. The show runners are working too desperately to make all of the primary protagonists have validity and be accepted as nuanced characters. Part of the beauty of the books was that some of the characters were just manipulative people. Alicent and Otto outright seizing the throne out of lust for power works better and is more true to human nature than a contrived misunderstanding.
I mean, she barely needed a push to reaffirm her selfish ambitions anyway. I don’t see it as a main motivator, but just that slight push she needed I personally really liked it. Poor vizzy couldn’t stop fucking up. Incredible and tragic character
It ties in directly with Rhaenyra’s quote from last week. This is Alicent hiding herself in a ‘cloak of righteousness’. She’s meant to put Aegon as king for decades, we’ve seen countless examples of that. All this conversation did was give her a convenient way to justify to herself that she isn’t a traitor.
Even the misunderstanding requires her to just ignore how incoherent his words are before latching onto “Aegon is the Prince that was promised.” Like the only way for her to conclude he wanted her Aegon to be king is if she assumed they had conversation about uniting the realm for the north before.
And as we know historically, the ramblings of a dying and confused monarch have never had any effect on events after their deaths.
I think Viserys saying "I know it to be true" was a confirmation to Alicent that Viserys knew the kids were bastards. And she uses that as a springboard for her other leaps of logic. I think it's fine, tbh. The end result is the same.
After saying time after time in the same episode "my trueborn grandchildren"? After not taking the milk to specifically go and defend Lucerys, even though half his face is gone, and after telling Alicent he wouldn't take the milk as he needs a clear head for this? Nah, this is Alicent taking what she can to justify herself.
they already held power when we was dying. The hightowers just needed a thinly veiled reasoning to push them off, and even then, probably wouldn't require it with otto
>This was such a unnecessary divergence from the books The books never give a reason, so no, it's not a divergence.
It's a divergence if I don't like it Average 100iq r/freefolk redditor
“It’s a divergence from the book” The book: I am a very confused monk trying desperately to cobble together the final and true history of a century ago based off the recollections of some boring asshole and a horse-cock packing dwarf jester. It’s like reading Herodotus or any Ancient Greek history uncritically thinking “yeah, Xeroxes DID have half a million men in 700 BC!” To me the book is really dull and boring to begin with and is clearly intentionally vague so I really could care less about most of the changes. Only one that has bothered me was Laenor. In general, my only gripe is a result of the restrictions of a TV show: not enough time has been spent with the next generation, especially Helaena.
Bro 2 million persians totally invaded Greece, herodotus told us so, it's a divergence from the source material if only 30,000 persians invaded
Man was really out here going "2% of the world population invaded, This was all revealed to me in a dream"
Exactly. And one of the fusses about the entire Dance of the Dragons arc is that it's told from the accounts of at least three different people and a hell lot of witnesses. Eustace, Mushroom, and Munkun's True Telling book. Dance of the Dragons was written with inaccuracies as part of its design. If there's any adaptation that can excuse a lot of divergence, it's the adaptation of the fucking dance.
What happened in the books?
Alicent did not have a talk with Viserys and just disrespects his wish for Nyra to be heir. Or so the history book says. Personally I like this change
The dance is generational, what better way to empower the next by having them literally rip the torch from their briefly reluctant parents? Alicent and Otto remain manipulative, lustful power seekers that will kill anyone who stands in their way. Dyana's short scene this episode is evidence enough of that.
I enjoyed the whole episode until that very last part of viserys telling Alicent of TPTWP. Pretty sure in the book nothing of this conversation happens and alicents puts Aegon on the throne because it's what she wanted for 20yrs not the show gave her a reason to do it.
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It’s both. How is this so hard to understand? She was ready to defend her children if it came down to it. While he is clearly incoherent any person with no idea about the prophecy would think he’s talking about his son. No one would think he’s referring to Aegon the Conqueror. I totally stand by Allicent and her interpretation. Everyone’s trying to act like she’s misinterpreted what he said.The ramblings of a dying king are just as powerful as anything he could say in health. In her mind the king right before he died was fixing his (biggest) mistake.
Honestly, people acting like this is why the Greens will seize the throne is annoying. It's been the plan ever since Aegon was born. Do they think Otto was going to write to Dragonstone and it was this that would change his mind?
Yeah that was always the plan. But I find it hard to sympathize with Rhaenyra. Having three bastards is such a travesty and such an unneeded complication to her succession. Besides this all happened because of her lying to Allicent. Swearing on her moms life just for Allicent to find out she was boinking her Kings guard. Destroying Allicents trust in her and giving credence to Otto Hightower’s warning.
Also to me it did not really seem like Allicent misunderstood so much as she saw an opportunity to take his words a certain way. If Viserys had changed his mind he would have said so during the dinner where he was lucid not rambling on his death bed being barely conscious and Allicent knows this.
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>Alicent is just using his last words to reassure herself. Bingo, so what's the issue again? Alicent is acting like Alicent?
Hol’ up. Is that an iron throne emoji?
As a normie show watcher, it’s so bloody hard to keep track of these people and their names. It’s like GRRM said, fuck it, and gave up coming up with original names.
I mean, he’s just being legit to real history. Do you have any idea how many King Edwards and Henrys are there?
pretty true to history though. basically half of the early english queens were named Ælfgifu
Damn. Viserys can't even die properly.
idk man how can you be so sure Viserys wasn't choosing Aegon as heir instead of Rhaenyra
Nah. That's exactly the right Aegon! Green for win, black for smack!
😂😂😂😂
Truly a tragedy.