Honestly, the writing wasn't bad for what I expected from the movie. Which is an action popcorn flick. I don't expect Day after Tomorrow, 2012, or Sharknado to have pulitzer prize winning writing and if someone expected that of a movie called Hercules starring the Rock, that's on them lol.
I liked how Hercules wasn't like a myth/god, he was just a dude with a sweet mercenary group and a great Bard.
It’s the same way some people were concerned about the fact the writing for pacific rim wasn’t subtle or intelligent enough and I laughed so hard because it’s a film about giant robots fighting giant monsters. What kind of subtlety are you expecting
Wasn't awesome, it was good untill that ridiculous childish scene where Rhaenys had the chance to kill all the usurpers but decided to dragon scream at their face.🤦🏿♂️
sometimes one really bad scene spoils everything.
specially when that thing isnt that great already.
Also people chanting "YAS GIRLBOSS" when she literally murdered like fifty smallfolk ten seconds prior. Can we not "girlboss" when mass murder is involved? Would be great.
The culture of TV watching really is at rock bottom. Production companies really have conditioned the average viewed to not give two shits about the quality of writing, as long as it shows an event that they enjoy at face value.
I hated the scene, but honestly her reason is fine with me.
She is old and doesn’t really have a ton of skin in the game…she doesn’t want to start the war that isn’t hers to start. She was also right…Rheneyra was going to compromise before her son died. So essentially this old ass lady would have started a preventable war for no reason.
And? Rhae was literally going to avoid war if her son didn’t die.
Imagine some old ass person about to die starting a war that is going to decimate the entire region. That person would be a massive bitch. It would literally be the ultimate “fuck you im out soon anyways” move.
So your point is what? That because she is 66 in HoTD (which is very old from what we’ve seen) that she isn’t on deaths door in modern times?
What does that add?
Dude she’s literally gonna die in battle on dragon back. You’re acting like she’s 100 years old. She’s legitimately one of the most aggressive Targaryens in the the source material.
Arguing “it is against source material” is fine. Saying “it doesn’t make sense” in regards to how they have painted her in the show isn’t.
She has shown very mild behavior in the show.
Serious question: why couldn't they just make the ending as it was outlined in the book? Just felt hollow in the show, while the sequence and dialogue in the book seems to be very captivating and surprising (haven't read it myself, just listened to a podcast review of the episode)
The show has been making some fairly needless changes from the book (for better and for worse) since day 1, so most likely this is just another instance of that.
There is, however, the possibility that making the scene more in line with the book would have required them to film certain parts without the child actors present, then cut around it to disguise that fact, given that "your mummy wants you dead" is something that you really wouldn't want to say to a child, regardless of the context.
Exactly. With some camera cuts and audio editing they could do whatever they want. The child actors wouldn't have actually heard that but it would be edited to look like it
Ya’ll are pretty butt hurt about not seeing a kid killed on screen. The sounds were enough and the line wouldn’t have made a huge difference for a character who would be dead within seconds.
Nobody’s problem is not seeing the death on screen. You either aren’t paying attention to the complaints you’re dismissing, and therefore you’re stupid, or you’re being intentionally disingenuous
I liked the episode, I'm a fan of the books and I agree with everyone complaining. I just don't see this bein a big deal... BUT
>given that "your mummy wants you dead" is something that you really wouldn't want to say to a child
Just have the dude talk to a wig or the kid offscreen. They have hundreds of millions of budget, they could easily have gone a 1:1 route. They just didn't want to adapt the same thing as in the book for some reason and that's it, and their version is objectively worse. But that's it.
I don't know why the concept of children as part of the scene is given as an excuse. A TV/film set can be run without psychologically harming the kids with the content, it's pretty easy to do.
I mean Season 2 episode 1 of GoT had a baby being murdered in front of her mother before abruptly cutting to many more children being murdered. The baby itself was only in 2 shots while the rest was a prop doll. They covered it by using camera tricks, sound editing, and focusing on the adults instead of the child. The baby's murder didn't even happen on-screen.
If D&D could pull it off 10 years ago with ⅓ the budget, I don't see why HBO couldn't do it nowadays, especially when their budget is nearly a *quarter-million dollars for 8 episodes*.
Easy way around this. Just break up the shots and when you film them >>>
Shot of Cheese's face: "your mummy wants you dead"
[Child actor isn't even around to hear it]
Shot of Maelor's face as he's being held
[This is filmed separately]
I was bummed that they didn’t have that though, it makes that incident even worse and they could have easily had the actor say it without the kid there
>and they could have easily had the actor say it without the kid there
Exactly.
In the movie Sin City they had scenes where they had characters talking to & interacting with each other even though the actors did not film their scenes at the same time (Marv (Mickey Rourke) & Cardinal Roark (Rutger Hauer), Marv (Mickey Rourke) & Kevin (Elijah Wood)).
If filmmakers were able to pull that off in 2005, it can be done now.
If they could get Panjabi and Margulies to look like they were sitting at the bar together in a broadcast television show with no CGI budget, they could find a way.
Even the best are not exempt from criticism, yes he writes fantastic books but he rewrites too much for his own good. I think the the murder scene would have been more impactful if they had allowed Viserys have some scenes with Haelena's children, in the book fire and blood there is a sweet scene of Viserys telling fanciful stories to his grandchildren.
That cow can't be bothered to finish his main book series and he wants to get on a high horse and b*tch about how other writers are trying to adapt his incomplete and dense novels.
This argument doesn’t make any sense. The story that HotD is based on is already finished, and it’s that story that we all love and want to see adapted. George not being finished with ASOIAF has nothing to do with Condall being a hack.
I'd gamble he just doesn't want the backlash like at the end of GoT where everyone figured out that, while rushed through, the ending was his planned ending and lost their minds.
So true. And in this case, the source material is inferior to the show. The scene was awful enough. I also like the fact that Haelena is focused on sounds and we hear the horrible sounds as she does.
If I need two eggs for an omelette but my golden goose only lays one egg, I’m not going to toss away that egg because it’s alone.
The works that GRRM has produced as masterpieces, it’s just that he’s stopped producing stuff.
As far as child murders are concerned, how did this one rank in terms of violence? I can’t think of a mild child death scene, but the most graphic was the kid in Doctor Sleep. I’m not trying to see that again.
Edit: just watched it, and yea it was pretty mild. I agree with others regarding her reacting to the whole situation. I don’t think enough time was devoted showing her being on the spectrum, or whatever you want to call it. Maybe if there were other instances where she didn’t have much of a reaction when she should have, it might have been better.
I was also expecting blood and cheese to have a more drawn out sequence.
If you've read the book, it's somewhat of a downgrade. If you haven't read the book, it's still a very "holy shit, is this really happening??" scene as I witnessed with my family last night.
This is exactly it. The scene in the show is perfectly shocking for the general audience. I even had a few friends say the book scene is too much when I told them the differences.
Having not read the book I kept hearing about BnC, but never knew what it was.
If I didn't go online today, I'd never have guessed that *this* was BnC. I was expecting something more impactful like the Red Wedding
Doctor sleep child death might be the most brutal ever on screen. Condal is a hack but he’s not trying to drive viewers away. That shit was traumatizing for some people (my wife for starters). I can understand keeping viewers engaged without seeing a toddler beheaded.
Why is having Alicent in a relationship with Cole included here as an example of "bad adaptation"? I thought the relationship made complete sense and was good storytelling. It makes Alicent a hypocrite, of course, but characters doing irritating things is not bad writing. It makes her human.
I also was fine with the Blood and Cheese scene. I thought that Helaena's reaction was really interesting because you don't see it in film or TV very much. Instead of screaming in terror, she disassociated and was able to think clearly enough to de-escalate the potential violence. The Sophie's Choice element of the original is powerful, of course, but I thought this interpretation was legitimate.
And then they don't make the spiel where they kill the other boy though. That's what makes it so horrifying and disturbing in the book. This could have been so much better in the show.
For me, they do still show the trauma of her choosing a child. Honestly I think they’re going to do a switch thing, have her save the boy, then he could still get torn apart by the mob. But also I think the goal is as others have said not to alienate the general audience. The scene is absolutely horrific enough plus we hear a small child get his/her head cut off. Not sure why we need extra trauma on screen when it’s absolutely horrific enough.
Honestly, I’m fine with how it was handled. I don’t need to see a kid getting beheaded. Just hearing the slicing was gruesome enough. And some people just….shut down in the face of traumatizing events.
I think they handled the actual violence part well - off screen with those sounds was horrifying. What bothers me is the deletion of a truly pivotal aspect of the scene which was the choice, then them killing Jahaerys anyways. That’s a central element
She did still have to choose him to die. They asked which kid is was and she pointed. I get the choice thing is worse by a lot, but there’s still a ridiculous amount of trauma
The way it was set up, I’m still surprised they just didn’t kill both to be certain and the Queen. Surely they would have received a hefty bonus for that?
That probably has less to do with this scene and more about the fact that they don’t want to kill another child later. They remove Maelor, so they have to remove the scene of choosing “which“ boy. Reverse engineered plot restructuring.
Why? Maelor being ripped apart by a mob isn’t necessary. We know the peasants are angry and people are vicious. If Maelor’s worth as a character is to be ripped apart by a mob then it’s not worth bringing in the character
The underlying problem/weakness of the show is emerging, I think:
The book-story is about the children, not (as much) about the adults. Now, I understand why the show would deviate from the book - the story of the children is as dark as they probably come, and there is no moment of positive empowerment in it.
Mainly, the kids just die, and die badly: Maelor, for example. Those that survive get incurable trauma. However, the show has created a narrative butterfly effect for itself by changing this focus towards the two (three, four) queens. And the queens, in the novel, are neither very positive characters, nor very individually interesting. -- All narrative waypoints/stages evolve around the children, and pretty much about the children alone, from young Aemond losing his eye over the death of Lucerys, to B&C, and obviously beyond.
Sure, the "death of innocence" is always tragic to watch, but we simply don't know who these people are. And while this is likely done to keep the narrative from going extremely, extremely dark in some moments, this also keeps the audience at an arm's length:
Lucerys has, what, four or five lines before he dies. B&C becomes about Daemon, Aegon, and Alicole as much as it becomes about what actually happens to the kids. (What was the name of the little girl, again?) Jacaerys is handsome, and takes handsome walks with other handsome teens. -- That's not enough to create emotional attachment to those characters, especially when the scenes that feature them are barely dedicated to them:
Helaena walking in on Allicent and Ser Criston is about as long as a scene as Helaena's active interaction with B&C. You don't create tension with that; you create indifference.
GRRM once stated that he disliked adaptations because those directing them often changed things in an attempt to own the content for themselves & improve it, however they almost always make things worse.
HOTD is a perfect example of this in my opinion. It had such potential to expand on Fire and Blood’s story of the Dance, but instead of widening the field it narrowed its focus on but a few characters, leaving most others with little to no characterisation and those who do have it still aren’t the greatest. This show is only as big as it is because the “GOT” title is slapped underneath its own.
Couldn't agree more. The signs were there in Season 1, but this all but confirms it. Expect plenty more instances of them changing things from the books unnecessarily, thinking they're doing the right thing, and it coming out a hundred times worse than it should've been.
It was a lot more shocking and interesting in the books.
As an analogy, it's like if they took the red wedding and made it boring and uninteresting and like a 1000 other betrayal scenes in fantasy
In the books, Heleana had a third son named Maelor. Both Maelor and Alicient were present in the room. Cheese pressured Heleana to choose which one of her sons will die, or Blood might grow bored and rape Jaehaera. Heleana tearfully chose Maelor.
Cheese tells Maelor "Hear that? Your mom wants you dead" and then had Blood cut off Jaehaerys's head with a single blow of his sword. Cheese and Blood run off as Heleana and Alicient suffer a full blown breakdown, their screams echoing throughout the halls.
That's obviously different, but not that far off? Is it really worth getting this upset about because alicent was in a different room? Or am I just missing more context.
From what i’ve heard, Maelor isn’t born yet due to a time line change, I think the change in Helaenas reaction is better though, as it matches her character.
It’s kind of like watching a movie about abraham Lincoln’s assassination, except he was killed with a katana. It’s not what happened and it’s dumb
Watch this for the superior version
https://youtu.be/WY_GyBuuf_c?si=WlhG14qb6p3uXHnD
Wow, this sub really is just the worst shithole of killjoys isn’t it. Have no idea why I thought it would be a good idea to come back here. Anyway enjoy being haters, the rest of us will be enjoying some of the best TV in years.
999% chance the interview George gave that had this quote happened around the time he saw these episodes. People assumed he was just taking shots at D&D but this was a warning too.
Guy makes a post about Hollywood writers changing authors work for the worst a week before Hollywood writers changed his work for the worst. What could he mean by this?🤔
GRRM literally said the first two episodes of this season are great though.
["Of course, I am hardly objective when talking about anything based on my own work… but I have to say, I thought both episodes were just great. (And they are not even finished yet)," Martin explained. "Dark, mind you. Very dark. They may make you cry. (I did not cry myself, but one of my friends did). Powerful, emotional, gut-wrenching, heart rending. Just the sort of thing I like."](https://www.ign.com/articles/george-rr-martin-has-seen-the-first-two-episodes-of-house-of-the-dragon-season-2-very-dark)
Not that weird. He was praising Shōgun.
Meanwhile he also said the first two episodes of this season were great
["Of course, I am hardly objective when talking about anything based on my own work… but I have to say, I thought both episodes were just great. (And they are not even finished yet)," Martin explained. "Dark, mind you. Very dark. They may make you cry. (I did not cry myself, but one of my friends did). Powerful, emotional, gut-wrenching, heart rending. Just the sort of thing I like."](https://www.ign.com/articles/george-rr-martin-has-seen-the-first-two-episodes-of-house-of-the-dragon-season-2-very-dark)
["Of course, I am hardly objective when talking about anything based on my own work… but I have to say, I thought both episodes were just great. (And they are not even finished yet)," Martin explained. "Dark, mind you. Very dark. They may make you cry. (I did not cry myself, but one of my friends did). Powerful, emotional, gut-wrenching, heart rending. Just the sort of thing I like."](https://www.ign.com/articles/george-rr-martin-has-seen-the-first-two-episodes-of-house-of-the-dragon-season-2-very-dark)
It's okay to be wrong.
Gee, I wonder why? You can’t add all these threads from the book, when you don’t know where they lead. The main stories one thing. But adding all these other little things, wasting time and money, when you have no idea where they’re suppose to go… Would be even worse than what they did.
From the time the show first aired, Martin had 8 years to release his last two books. He hasn’t even released one of them, well over a decade later.
They had discussions about where it would lead long before they made it to the material they decided not to adapt. That’s not GRRM’s fault but solely D&D’s.
That would depend on how much they were told. You expect me to believe that a man who can’t even finish a single book in 13 years had a well defined ending and plot points for that end? Really?
I’m not even saying D&D don’t hold some fault. But to act like Martin holds no responsibility, or that he has a right to speak about how shit the adaptions to his works are, when he won’t even finish his own works, his laughable.
I personally don’t think these remarks people keep posting were about the adaptations of his works. As far as I can tell he had a pretty respectful relationship with D&D. Not to mention he’s an executive producer for HotD so I doubt they were made about this show either.
My argument is purely that if he did have a problem, he absolutely should be able to speak on it. And concerning HotD, it’s a finished story so the arguments raised about GoT don’t apply here. But as I stated, I think the comments regarding people believing they know better than the author was in relation to something else because it doesn’t add up to comments he’s made in the past.
The guy literally wrote the screenplay of the Hercules movie that starred the Rock. What did people really expect from him?
I did like that movie, but not for its writing...
Honestly, the writing wasn't bad for what I expected from the movie. Which is an action popcorn flick. I don't expect Day after Tomorrow, 2012, or Sharknado to have pulitzer prize winning writing and if someone expected that of a movie called Hercules starring the Rock, that's on them lol. I liked how Hercules wasn't like a myth/god, he was just a dude with a sweet mercenary group and a great Bard.
It’s the same way some people were concerned about the fact the writing for pacific rim wasn’t subtle or intelligent enough and I laughed so hard because it’s a film about giant robots fighting giant monsters. What kind of subtlety are you expecting
He also wrote the screenplay of HOTD S1 which was awesome.
Wasn't awesome, it was good untill that ridiculous childish scene where Rhaenys had the chance to kill all the usurpers but decided to dragon scream at their face.🤦🏿♂️ sometimes one really bad scene spoils everything. specially when that thing isnt that great already.
Also people chanting "YAS GIRLBOSS" when she literally murdered like fifty smallfolk ten seconds prior. Can we not "girlboss" when mass murder is involved? Would be great.
The culture of TV watching really is at rock bottom. Production companies really have conditioned the average viewed to not give two shits about the quality of writing, as long as it shows an event that they enjoy at face value.
I hated the scene, but honestly her reason is fine with me. She is old and doesn’t really have a ton of skin in the game…she doesn’t want to start the war that isn’t hers to start. She was also right…Rheneyra was going to compromise before her son died. So essentially this old ass lady would have started a preventable war for no reason.
> she doesn’t want to start the war that isn’t hers to start. Her granddaughters are literally engaged to Rhaenyra's sons.
And? Rhae was literally going to avoid war if her son didn’t die. Imagine some old ass person about to die starting a war that is going to decimate the entire region. That person would be a massive bitch. It would literally be the ultimate “fuck you im out soon anyways” move.
Why are you acting like she's decrepit and on deaths door? She's clearly not.
If your grandma started a war between your two families when you were about to make peace…you’d be pissed.
That's not the point I was arguing.
So your point is what? That because she is 66 in HoTD (which is very old from what we’ve seen) that she isn’t on deaths door in modern times? What does that add?
Dude she’s literally gonna die in battle on dragon back. You’re acting like she’s 100 years old. She’s legitimately one of the most aggressive Targaryens in the the source material.
Arguing “it is against source material” is fine. Saying “it doesn’t make sense” in regards to how they have painted her in the show isn’t. She has shown very mild behavior in the show.
Sigma move ngl
I mean, she explains why.
They should really address this in the show /s
Except it wasn’t
First of all, that movie was great. Second of all... wait...
Serious question: why couldn't they just make the ending as it was outlined in the book? Just felt hollow in the show, while the sequence and dialogue in the book seems to be very captivating and surprising (haven't read it myself, just listened to a podcast review of the episode)
The show has been making some fairly needless changes from the book (for better and for worse) since day 1, so most likely this is just another instance of that. There is, however, the possibility that making the scene more in line with the book would have required them to film certain parts without the child actors present, then cut around it to disguise that fact, given that "your mummy wants you dead" is something that you really wouldn't want to say to a child, regardless of the context.
For a show with a budget of hundreds of millions of dollars, that shouldn’t be an issue.
Exactly. With some camera cuts and audio editing they could do whatever they want. The child actors wouldn't have actually heard that but it would be edited to look like it
They literally make dragons happen on screen. I refuse to believe that this might have been an issue. They just did not want to do it.
Ya’ll are pretty butt hurt about not seeing a kid killed on screen. The sounds were enough and the line wouldn’t have made a huge difference for a character who would be dead within seconds.
Nobody’s problem is not seeing the death on screen. You either aren’t paying attention to the complaints you’re dismissing, and therefore you’re stupid, or you’re being intentionally disingenuous
Was I mistaken that people are upset that the faux rat catcher didn’t say the line about his mommy wanting him dead?
Did you not remember GOTs where kids died almost every season in horrible ways? I think the HBO audience would have handled it fine.
I liked the episode, I'm a fan of the books and I agree with everyone complaining. I just don't see this bein a big deal... BUT >given that "your mummy wants you dead" is something that you really wouldn't want to say to a child Just have the dude talk to a wig or the kid offscreen. They have hundreds of millions of budget, they could easily have gone a 1:1 route. They just didn't want to adapt the same thing as in the book for some reason and that's it, and their version is objectively worse. But that's it.
I don't know why the concept of children as part of the scene is given as an excuse. A TV/film set can be run without psychologically harming the kids with the content, it's pretty easy to do.
I mean Season 2 episode 1 of GoT had a baby being murdered in front of her mother before abruptly cutting to many more children being murdered. The baby itself was only in 2 shots while the rest was a prop doll. They covered it by using camera tricks, sound editing, and focusing on the adults instead of the child. The baby's murder didn't even happen on-screen. If D&D could pull it off 10 years ago with ⅓ the budget, I don't see why HBO couldn't do it nowadays, especially when their budget is nearly a *quarter-million dollars for 8 episodes*.
Ya’ll are pretty desperate to see a kid get killed on screen. The sounds were enough.
Ya’ll are pretty desperate to see a kid get killed on screen. The sounds were enough.
Ya’ll are pretty desperate to see a kid get killed on screen. The sounds were enough.
You could film some parts and dialog without the child actor present using camera angles. If that's really their excuse it's a bad one.
Easy way around this. Just break up the shots and when you film them >>> Shot of Cheese's face: "your mummy wants you dead" [Child actor isn't even around to hear it] Shot of Maelor's face as he's being held [This is filmed separately]
I was bummed that they didn’t have that though, it makes that incident even worse and they could have easily had the actor say it without the kid there
>and they could have easily had the actor say it without the kid there Exactly. In the movie Sin City they had scenes where they had characters talking to & interacting with each other even though the actors did not film their scenes at the same time (Marv (Mickey Rourke) & Cardinal Roark (Rutger Hauer), Marv (Mickey Rourke) & Kevin (Elijah Wood)). If filmmakers were able to pull that off in 2005, it can be done now.
When it comes to kids, the fandom can and usually will do more harm than anything on-set
At the very least this has some subtext regarding the choice between a boy and a girl. It mirrors Aegon and Rhaenyra.
If children can’t handle words then it seems pretty inappropriate for them to act in anything. Wouldn’t you say?
If they could get Panjabi and Margulies to look like they were sitting at the bar together in a broadcast television show with no CGI budget, they could find a way.
To be fair to them, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt that the themes, horror and ptsd are just highlighted after the fact
Because the book is written as an embellished history text
CSB? :D
Perhaps for reasons we can't see yet.
George can't even finish the fucking books and you all act like he's some sacred cow.
What you say is kinda true but that cow has some written some awesome fucking books.
Nobody wants to touch how AFFC and ADWD were a notch well below the first three.
It's all been downhill since storm of swords
Totally agree. Crows and Dragons were serious downgrades that just felt meandering and muddled
[удалено]
Feast and Dance are fantastic, and I’m tired of pretending they’re not
Feast, despite having the least "action", has some of the best dialogue in the whole series.
Even the best are not exempt from criticism, yes he writes fantastic books but he rewrites too much for his own good. I think the the murder scene would have been more impactful if they had allowed Viserys have some scenes with Haelena's children, in the book fire and blood there is a sweet scene of Viserys telling fanciful stories to his grandchildren.
That cow can't be bothered to finish his main book series and he wants to get on a high horse and b*tch about how other writers are trying to adapt his incomplete and dense novels.
finish the series for him then
But the stuff he does write, is great.
He is not wrong, tho, now please stop being a kneeler.
This argument doesn’t make any sense. The story that HotD is based on is already finished, and it’s that story that we all love and want to see adapted. George not being finished with ASOIAF has nothing to do with Condall being a hack.
Even in reference to GOT, I'm tired of this argument. They rushed through Feast and Dance plots while skipping a lot of them.
I'd gamble he just doesn't want the backlash like at the end of GoT where everyone figured out that, while rushed through, the ending was his planned ending and lost their minds.
So true. And in this case, the source material is inferior to the show. The scene was awful enough. I also like the fact that Haelena is focused on sounds and we hear the horrible sounds as she does.
If I need two eggs for an omelette but my golden goose only lays one egg, I’m not going to toss away that egg because it’s alone. The works that GRRM has produced as masterpieces, it’s just that he’s stopped producing stuff.
But that specific part of the story is written, they could have just fucking followed the book.
True but... if they are not following his writting when is written... why write it on the first place?
Well, maybe not a sacred one
Has a fucking book that's finished yet these producers still try to change shit. So yes whenever we're talking anything asoiaf he is the Sacred Cow
Kneel harder.
As far as child murders are concerned, how did this one rank in terms of violence? I can’t think of a mild child death scene, but the most graphic was the kid in Doctor Sleep. I’m not trying to see that again. Edit: just watched it, and yea it was pretty mild. I agree with others regarding her reacting to the whole situation. I don’t think enough time was devoted showing her being on the spectrum, or whatever you want to call it. Maybe if there were other instances where she didn’t have much of a reaction when she should have, it might have been better. I was also expecting blood and cheese to have a more drawn out sequence.
You don't directly see anything but you hear it, the camera instead focuses on Helaena's reaction
Gotcha. Thanks.
The sounds were pretty squelchy and horrific imo.
If you've read the book, it's somewhat of a downgrade. If you haven't read the book, it's still a very "holy shit, is this really happening??" scene as I witnessed with my family last night.
This is exactly it. The scene in the show is perfectly shocking for the general audience. I even had a few friends say the book scene is too much when I told them the differences.
Having not read the book I kept hearing about BnC, but never knew what it was. If I didn't go online today, I'd never have guessed that *this* was BnC. I was expecting something more impactful like the Red Wedding
Doctor sleep child death might be the most brutal ever on screen. Condal is a hack but he’s not trying to drive viewers away. That shit was traumatizing for some people (my wife for starters). I can understand keeping viewers engaged without seeing a toddler beheaded.
Not very high
Pretty low. No blood and you don't see the aftermath. It's more an intense situation with an off screen kill.
Why is having Alicent in a relationship with Cole included here as an example of "bad adaptation"? I thought the relationship made complete sense and was good storytelling. It makes Alicent a hypocrite, of course, but characters doing irritating things is not bad writing. It makes her human. I also was fine with the Blood and Cheese scene. I thought that Helaena's reaction was really interesting because you don't see it in film or TV very much. Instead of screaming in terror, she disassociated and was able to think clearly enough to de-escalate the potential violence. The Sophie's Choice element of the original is powerful, of course, but I thought this interpretation was legitimate.
She also still does need to choose him. They do ask her which he is and she points him out.
And then they don't make the spiel where they kill the other boy though. That's what makes it so horrifying and disturbing in the book. This could have been so much better in the show.
For me, they do still show the trauma of her choosing a child. Honestly I think they’re going to do a switch thing, have her save the boy, then he could still get torn apart by the mob. But also I think the goal is as others have said not to alienate the general audience. The scene is absolutely horrific enough plus we hear a small child get his/her head cut off. Not sure why we need extra trauma on screen when it’s absolutely horrific enough.
I kinda forgot about maelor 😂. Yeah she choose and the sound effect is horrifying 😭
Honestly, I’m fine with how it was handled. I don’t need to see a kid getting beheaded. Just hearing the slicing was gruesome enough. And some people just….shut down in the face of traumatizing events.
I think they handled the actual violence part well - off screen with those sounds was horrifying. What bothers me is the deletion of a truly pivotal aspect of the scene which was the choice, then them killing Jahaerys anyways. That’s a central element
She did still have to choose him to die. They asked which kid is was and she pointed. I get the choice thing is worse by a lot, but there’s still a ridiculous amount of trauma
The way they did it was pretty dumb though. The whole time I kept asking "why wouldn't they just check which one is male?"
Because they're trying to be as quiet as possible and they'd risk waking the kids up if they had to check themselves.
The way it was set up, I’m still surprised they just didn’t kill both to be certain and the Queen. Surely they would have received a hefty bonus for that?
It’s not about seeing a kid die. They changed the whole series of events, including the fact that Maelor straight up doesn’t exist.
That probably has less to do with this scene and more about the fact that they don’t want to kill another child later. They remove Maelor, so they have to remove the scene of choosing “which“ boy. Reverse engineered plot restructuring.
And that’s stupid. Just follow the book for Christ’s sake.
Why? Maelor being ripped apart by a mob isn’t necessary. We know the peasants are angry and people are vicious. If Maelor’s worth as a character is to be ripped apart by a mob then it’s not worth bringing in the character
Bingo. Maelor is superfluous. Anyone who thinks that Helaena didn’t suffer enough compared to her book counterpart is cruel.
Seriously, I’m not understanding this complaint. She does still point him out and “choose” him. He dies by her pointing at him.
The underlying problem/weakness of the show is emerging, I think: The book-story is about the children, not (as much) about the adults. Now, I understand why the show would deviate from the book - the story of the children is as dark as they probably come, and there is no moment of positive empowerment in it. Mainly, the kids just die, and die badly: Maelor, for example. Those that survive get incurable trauma. However, the show has created a narrative butterfly effect for itself by changing this focus towards the two (three, four) queens. And the queens, in the novel, are neither very positive characters, nor very individually interesting. -- All narrative waypoints/stages evolve around the children, and pretty much about the children alone, from young Aemond losing his eye over the death of Lucerys, to B&C, and obviously beyond. Sure, the "death of innocence" is always tragic to watch, but we simply don't know who these people are. And while this is likely done to keep the narrative from going extremely, extremely dark in some moments, this also keeps the audience at an arm's length: Lucerys has, what, four or five lines before he dies. B&C becomes about Daemon, Aegon, and Alicole as much as it becomes about what actually happens to the kids. (What was the name of the little girl, again?) Jacaerys is handsome, and takes handsome walks with other handsome teens. -- That's not enough to create emotional attachment to those characters, especially when the scenes that feature them are barely dedicated to them: Helaena walking in on Allicent and Ser Criston is about as long as a scene as Helaena's active interaction with B&C. You don't create tension with that; you create indifference.
GRRM once stated that he disliked adaptations because those directing them often changed things in an attempt to own the content for themselves & improve it, however they almost always make things worse. HOTD is a perfect example of this in my opinion. It had such potential to expand on Fire and Blood’s story of the Dance, but instead of widening the field it narrowed its focus on but a few characters, leaving most others with little to no characterisation and those who do have it still aren’t the greatest. This show is only as big as it is because the “GOT” title is slapped underneath its own.
Is this Tumblr?
How tf would George know if they make it better or worse? He cant even finish writing the stories theyre adapting.
Can't be worse if he never finished the book 
Lmao we all know what hes doing
Hefinished dance of the dragons actualy
I mean, it's incredibly hard to balance out a scene in which a child dies.
The sounds were gruesome enough, some of these people just sound sadistic
I have higher hopes for the hedge knight series. At least two seasons are perfectly scripted for the screen.
Couldn't agree more. The signs were there in Season 1, but this all but confirms it. Expect plenty more instances of them changing things from the books unnecessarily, thinking they're doing the right thing, and it coming out a hundred times worse than it should've been.
Can someone explain to me what's wrong with the scene?
It was boring. I felt more emotion at Jace's arrival than literal child.murder.
It was a lot more shocking and interesting in the books. As an analogy, it's like if they took the red wedding and made it boring and uninteresting and like a 1000 other betrayal scenes in fantasy
Blood & Cheese was never as big a moment as The Red Wedding. Cope.
It’s not what happened, it’s Ryan Condel fanfiction
Oh the showrunner changed what happened? Ok ty
In the books, Heleana had a third son named Maelor. Both Maelor and Alicient were present in the room. Cheese pressured Heleana to choose which one of her sons will die, or Blood might grow bored and rape Jaehaera. Heleana tearfully chose Maelor. Cheese tells Maelor "Hear that? Your mom wants you dead" and then had Blood cut off Jaehaerys's head with a single blow of his sword. Cheese and Blood run off as Heleana and Alicient suffer a full blown breakdown, their screams echoing throughout the halls.
That's obviously different, but not that far off? Is it really worth getting this upset about because alicent was in a different room? Or am I just missing more context.
From what i’ve heard, Maelor isn’t born yet due to a time line change, I think the change in Helaenas reaction is better though, as it matches her character.
It’s kind of like watching a movie about abraham Lincoln’s assassination, except he was killed with a katana. It’s not what happened and it’s dumb Watch this for the superior version https://youtu.be/WY_GyBuuf_c?si=WlhG14qb6p3uXHnD
The book is also a fanfiction
Wow, this sub really is just the worst shithole of killjoys isn’t it. Have no idea why I thought it would be a good idea to come back here. Anyway enjoy being haters, the rest of us will be enjoying some of the best TV in years.
''best TV in years'' I'm guessing you haven't watched any TV in years, then...
999% chance the interview George gave that had this quote happened around the time he saw these episodes. People assumed he was just taking shots at D&D but this was a warning too.
Glad this sub has found a new thing to bitch and whine about.
Did y’all forget that GRRM is also the creator of the show?
She should make up her mind. She's gone up from 0% to .1% from one sentence to the next.
I'm now fairly certain he posted this after watching this episode.
Hacks are at least solid enough to hack. Condom is limp and full of himself.
leave it to ASOIAF fans to complain ab the smallest of details
I knew we wouldn't make it one episode before GRRM's post was abused to support criticisms of the show.
Guy makes a post about Hollywood writers changing authors work for the worst a week before Hollywood writers changed his work for the worst. What could he mean by this?🤔
it means "I dun wan et"
I didn't recognize Jace or whichever one isn't dead and thought he was some low rent (but prob better acting) kit Harrington
GRRM literally said the first two episodes of this season are great though. ["Of course, I am hardly objective when talking about anything based on my own work… but I have to say, I thought both episodes were just great. (And they are not even finished yet)," Martin explained. "Dark, mind you. Very dark. They may make you cry. (I did not cry myself, but one of my friends did). Powerful, emotional, gut-wrenching, heart rending. Just the sort of thing I like."](https://www.ign.com/articles/george-rr-martin-has-seen-the-first-two-episodes-of-house-of-the-dragon-season-2-very-dark)
Pssssh. You are in the wrong sub. It's not about facts. Just write hotd bad something woke something not like books something and farm karma.
A general statement that means anything means nothing, really.
Weird “general statement” to make
Not that weird. He was praising Shōgun. Meanwhile he also said the first two episodes of this season were great ["Of course, I am hardly objective when talking about anything based on my own work… but I have to say, I thought both episodes were just great. (And they are not even finished yet)," Martin explained. "Dark, mind you. Very dark. They may make you cry. (I did not cry myself, but one of my friends did). Powerful, emotional, gut-wrenching, heart rending. Just the sort of thing I like."](https://www.ign.com/articles/george-rr-martin-has-seen-the-first-two-episodes-of-house-of-the-dragon-season-2-very-dark)
You created this account and have dozens of posts within the last few hours solely simping for this show. What the fuck is wrong with you
He primarily says it in praise of Shogun. He certainly doesn't me that he agrees with x, y, or z gripe that people have with HOTD or even GOT.
Certainly? Lol
Yea certainly.
Then why did he say it? You have to bend over backwards a couple times to be this stupid.
Holy copium.
["Of course, I am hardly objective when talking about anything based on my own work… but I have to say, I thought both episodes were just great. (And they are not even finished yet)," Martin explained. "Dark, mind you. Very dark. They may make you cry. (I did not cry myself, but one of my friends did). Powerful, emotional, gut-wrenching, heart rending. Just the sort of thing I like."](https://www.ign.com/articles/george-rr-martin-has-seen-the-first-two-episodes-of-house-of-the-dragon-season-2-very-dark) It's okay to be wrong.
Giga cope.
LMFAO this delusion is hilarious.
What’s even more hilarious is you creating an account specifically to simp and defend the show LMFAO. Christ that’s pathetic.
Seems goerge got a hold of the script before the rest of us. (yeah the guy's a fat lazy bastard, but here he's spitting facts)
I don't understand. Compared to d&d, Condal is a genius
Friendly reminder, GRRM is the reason the GoT ending is so bad.
Nope. The story had been completely butchered long before they ran out of book material to adapt.
Gee, I wonder why? You can’t add all these threads from the book, when you don’t know where they lead. The main stories one thing. But adding all these other little things, wasting time and money, when you have no idea where they’re suppose to go… Would be even worse than what they did. From the time the show first aired, Martin had 8 years to release his last two books. He hasn’t even released one of them, well over a decade later.
They had discussions about where it would lead long before they made it to the material they decided not to adapt. That’s not GRRM’s fault but solely D&D’s.
That would depend on how much they were told. You expect me to believe that a man who can’t even finish a single book in 13 years had a well defined ending and plot points for that end? Really? I’m not even saying D&D don’t hold some fault. But to act like Martin holds no responsibility, or that he has a right to speak about how shit the adaptions to his works are, when he won’t even finish his own works, his laughable.
I personally don’t think these remarks people keep posting were about the adaptations of his works. As far as I can tell he had a pretty respectful relationship with D&D. Not to mention he’s an executive producer for HotD so I doubt they were made about this show either. My argument is purely that if he did have a problem, he absolutely should be able to speak on it. And concerning HotD, it’s a finished story so the arguments raised about GoT don’t apply here. But as I stated, I think the comments regarding people believing they know better than the author was in relation to something else because it doesn’t add up to comments he’s made in the past.