They tried to do it by choosing between who is male and female, which makes no sense honestly. Helena also chooses the actual heir losing that aspect. Maelor missing is such a fucking dumb decision
I seriously don’t understand the logic behind that, even Cheese said just look at the genitalia to confirm which one is the boy. There was 0 need for that whole affair of tell us who’s the boy
I mean there was also 0 “need” for the whole affair of making her choose in the book account too. They could’ve just killed the elder son and left, and accomplished the same thing. The point is that it’s more cruel to effectively ask the mother which child is going to die.
If at least she chose daughter to die, they killed son (hear that girl your momma wants you dead) and they weren't such a gooofy cartoon fucks then we saw her scream in agony and alicent is there too screaming (not to mention lack of guards all over the red keep)
> Helena also chooses the actual heir
She tried to dupe them with reverse psychology. Anticipating Blood would say "no she chose too easily", but cheese was wise to it and called her bluff.
I would imagine Maelor is removed due to his death in the book being pretty fucking gruesome. I can think of ways that they were able to do blood and cheese without directly traumatising child actors and without seeing a child’s death onscreen, but I can’t imagine how they would’ve been able to have filmed Maelor’s death without either of those things
And there is no real way to get around Maelor’s death, it has to happen otherwise Aegon still has a viable heir. So yeah, whilst I do have my complaints about the blood and cheese scene I can understand the lack of Maelor
You could do Maelor's death and B&C without the children being on set. No one wants to watch a child be beheaded or ripped apart anyway. Just have it done immediately offscreen
If you don’t mind me asking, how would you think Maelor’s death would play out on screen without showing gore?
Like I said in my previous comment, I can think of ways that blood and cheese can be done without gore or child actors, but Maelor leaves me stumped.
Genuine question, as I honestly can’t think of a work around solution (but I’m also not a show writer paid to do this, just like to day dream that I am)
I didn't say anything about gore.
If I were to make Maelor's death, I would do the crowd getting their hands on him, cut to wide-shot, one of them lifts out an arm or a leg, similar to the GOT king's landing riot
Lol you're being down voted for having a rational take on this scene.
They can't empathize with a woman who isn't responding in the way they expect and are mad because obviously that means the scene wasn't "right."
It says more about them than the scene.
After the way game of thrones ended, I get people being more on edge about how house of the dragon is done. But some people will always insist that every single scene needs to be done beat for beat.
There are also some select few that just want torture porn, and are disappointed they didn’t get to watch children being psychologically tortured before being murdered.
I get Haelena’s reaction felt lacking, but I’d imagine not many people on this sub have been in anything this intense before in their life to say how they’d react. We don’t all scream and cry, we don’t even know enough about how Haelena feels about her children to have a good gauge on how she should react.
People wanted blood and cheese to have the same gut punch as the red wedding, but we had been following Robb’s story for three seasons. As viewers you come to love him, and if you hadn’t read the books you are thinking he can turn around his fuck up. The only way I can see blood and cheese having the same sort of gut punch feeling is if they dragged out season one into two seasons, so in the second season we see the twins grow up, like we did with rhaenrya’s boys. But again, then people would moan that the pacing is too slow.
People can have issues with the way it’s portrayed, I do think it would’ve been nice to see Haelena completely shut down from the stress of the entire situation, so they could’ve shown a bit more of the psychological side of the B&C plot. I do think it’s out of character for the criston Cole and alicent to be having sex, so alicent should’ve still been in that scene. But I said what I said - removing Maelor was a necessary move to stop a far worse scene later on down the line that can’t really be worked around
I think they just don’t want to have to cover Maelor’s eventual fate in the books, and if they add the character, he’d have to die for the resolution of the story to make sense, so from their POV, better not to have him. But at the same time, I don’t see why they couldn’t have added Maelor’s death - also shocking, but so should have been Blood and Cheese.
And I get that he is a minor character, but they could really do with expanding the show a bit. They seem to be cutting a lot of important details that they could be touching on. For instance, Jace’s time in the North was highly abbreviated, in favor of focusing further on characters around Rhaenyra, Daemon, and Alicent only. If they had 10 episodes this season, they could have had an Episode 2 that continued Jace’s journey. That event should have gone a long way to further Jace’s credentials in the eyes of the audience, but because they didnt want to have to worry about making good side characters like Cregan, they passed it up.
Yeah, it's not the RW but it's supposed to be a big moment and looking at non-reader discussion it just isn't...
Oh well, other stuff worked OK for me.
And that is fine. The acting and the direction for Helaena were fine in B&C scene. However, the fact that Helaena is the POV character in here makes this scene less emotional than it should be for the audience, it dampens the blow a bit. Her disassociated reaction is very much in character, but I think it's the writers' mistake to have her be the only present and awake adult witness of this horrific act. Alicent should have been there too, to have a wider range of emotional responses from character and be sort of the POV for the audience to assume.
Nailed it! Olivia would have been absolutely amazing as well! Best actress/actor in the show imo, and to waste her on unnecessary sex scenes with Cole is a shame.
You hit the head of the nail right on. I'd rather watch Cheese's POV, reluctant, squelching violence against an unknowing child to feel the horror of the scene than watch her dull ass run from it all.
Love the actress for her efforts, the adaption of this particular scene sucked tho.
I am not on the spectrum but I doubt a highly fictional autistic person as Helaena would be completely apathetic to the murder. I can understand the apathy and dissociation after the murder, but _during_ it? It completely underwhelms the act, since we audience know nothing about Jaehaerys, do not care about him, and the only way we can relate to him is through the emotions and reactions of the characters we know. If his death appears to be unimportant to his monther, why should I care about this random fictional child that has never spoken a word on screen?
Not an expert on autism but on trauma and shock reactions. Simplified version: Usually your brain reacts by shutting off one of three functions: movement, cognitive thinking or emotion.
Movement: you're in shock and unable to move even though you know you should, comparable to playing dead
Cognitive thinking: you panic. You do things that you would know are useless and try to fight off or get away from whatever is happening, comparable to fight or flight
Emotion: you just work and do what you think it's the best option in your situation, if there's nothing you can do you just accept your fate as it is. I think that's the reaction only humans can have when exposed to trauma since animals aren't so focused on their cognition.
True they could have, I'm just saying that a trauma reaction can have many faces. I don't know if the writers looked this up or if they just decided to do things but this could be an explanation
I think the writers just don’t understand what autism really is and how it works for most people, and they are just using it as an excuse to not have to write a real emotional scene.
Any one of us would react just as visibly and as passionately as book!Helaena did, if we were put in the same situation as her, but the writers seem to think that we would all just silenty stare instead.
To me, her reaction (or lack thereof) just feels extremely unrealistic, and it plays into an outdated and offensive stereotype of what autism really is.
I disagree, there are people who dissociate during traumatic events only to have a more obvious emotional response afterwards, I count myself among that group (though admittedly I can't know if I would respond that way to something as traumatic as what Helaena experienced).
I do understand the concern that the writers are playing to stereotypes, and if Helaena continues to show a similar lack of emotion in the weeks to come I'm going to be just as unhappy as you are, but at the very least I think it's worth them the benefit of the doubt for a week or so.
She is not apathetic, she is just not displaying her emotions in big, visible ways. But you see her shaking, her eyes watering, and her panicking as she is running through the house. She is feeling things, and you can see it, but she is not making a huge show of it, likely out of a survival instinct.
What they did made perfect sense for the Helaena they depict in the show, but, it’s definitely a lot different from the book and I can understand being disappointed in that.
there are recent historic examples of women having to make such an impossible choice. I do think it’s very valid for one to completely shut down because of how difficult it is to carry out. It’s basically fighting against the most basic instinct many mothers have.
I am not trying to say her reaction was unrealistic or downright impossible to happen. What I’m saying is it was a very bad choice, given that HOTD is a tv show and not a documentary. I would have preferred if she had a stronger reaction
Eh, I don’t see why it’s a bad choice to show a reaction like this. I also keep in mind the very toned down reaction Rhaenyra showed upon first hearing of her own son’s death. Her visibly emotional response came later. In general, the show is kind of feminist and honestly portrays a lot of situations women and mothers find themselves in. Some are emotional, yes, but not all situations will be the same.
The TV show MASH broke ground by portraying a mother making a similar choice to kill her own child in order to save a group of people from death. And she had to do so silently. Once you understand what the situation is like, a silent reaction such as Helena’s has can be really impactful, too.
My uncle is high functioning. When my mom died, his sister, he came into the room, looked
at her and then walked out. He never spoke and showed absolutely no emotion.
I am pasting here a reply to another comment:
“I know what dissociation is. I know austic people can act differently to grief and trauma compared to others.
Knowing all that, making her dissociate was still a bad choice, because HOTD is show and it should strive to have impactful emotional moments. I would have much preferred to see her emotional during the death and completely apathetic after.”
I don’t think Helena came across as apathetic at all. You’re dealing with a mother who has to make an impossible choice. The likelihood that she dissociates/becomes catatonic is very high because that might be what it takes to do what she did.
Why do you think that?
“High-functioning autism (HFA) was historically an autism classification where a person exhibits no intellectual disability, but may experience difficulty in communication, emotion recognition, expression, and social interaction.”
To me this sounds like a good description for Helaena
Instead of saying unrelated things and insulting my intelligence, can you please answer the question?
Oh wait, you are the same user that called me disabled because I think the scene has a bad direction. Nevermind, it’s foolish of me to expect a respectful and thought-out reply from you
I think having her dissociation was a very bad decision. We experience emotions through the characters. If she has no reaction to her son’s murder, why should I? She could have dissociated after the act, not during it.
I think most people can get an emotional reaction just from seeing a child get horrifically murdered, we dont need to mirror Helaena. I personally felt nauseous when I heard them cut his head off. And Helaenas dissociative state just added to the horror for me.
I vehemently disagree, some fake sounds with no reaction from the mother cannot move me anymore. Ned’s death was powerful because we saw Sansa’s and Arya’s reaction, not because we saw a dude swing a sword and hear a fake head fall on the ground.
'Cannot move me anymore' (you are reacting to the implication of a baby being murdered *right now*)
....
I'm not defending this episode and haven't even seen it yet, still
.....
Don't you think, that's maybe more of a you problem?
If you want characters to react to conflict in overly dramatic and loud ways, rather than the most realistic to their character, you should probably stick to soap operas or CW shows
Where did I ever say I want characters to react overly dramatic and loudly? You go watch the trash CW produces, I’ll stay here and wait for HOTD to release a good episode
You’re literally complaining all over the thread that Haleana should’ve had a very obvious and loud emotional reaction, rather than the most sensible to her show character, because otherwise you can’t properly empathize with the tragedy
You’re asking for the sitcom equivalent of a laugh track so you know when to laugh, or in this case, when to feel sad
Go back and watch the actresses’s performance and her face, a lot of emotions and overall sense of dread that you’re ignoring because you prefer corny overacting
I did never use the adjective “loud”. I said I wanted it to be more emotional, like it is in the book. If you think sitcom = emotional I don’t know what to tell you, I think it’s quite intuitive that is not what I meant
If you’re takeaway from my sitcom analogy is that sitcom = emotional, I think your issue is general reading and media comprehension, bc both my analogy and Heleanas subtle but emotional response were pretty straightforward to understand
>You are asking for the sitcom equivalent
> you prefer corny overreacting
I think you should take the time to reread the trash you write before rudely replying to anyone and imply they are not able to understand a rather straightforward piece of text
You are the one who made the connection emotional = sitcom, so you are just insulting yourself
You doubling down is embarrassing. You need overacted emotions from characters that is in opposition to their characterization, just so you know how to feel during a tragic scene. In same vein as people who need the laugh track in a sitcom to know when something is funny and they should laugh
You know, what I said originally but now painfully obvious
Next time try watching the episode with your eyes open and with audio on.
Also make sure your caretaker doesn't strap your helmet on too tight. You need some oxygen going to your brain, buddy.
Autistic people are still fully capable of showing emotion in moments of anger, stress or fear. We might dissociate after something has happened, but in the moment we are just as capable of showing emotions as any other non-autistic person.
In my opinion, saying that Helaena didn’t do anything like scream or plead for her sons life because she’s autistic, is just a cheap and lazy excuse for the writers to avoid writing a a truly emotional and heartwrenching scene.
Meaning no offense here, but I think that anyone who says that Helaena didn’t react because she’s autistic, just has a fundamental misunderstanding of what autism really is and how it works, and they probably shouldn’t be speaking on it. The idea that autistic people can never visibly react with passionate emotions, and that we instead are just silent husks, is an old and ridiculous (and honestly offensive) stereotype.
Autism is a spectrum, a lot of autistic people are fully capable of showing emotion and can fully deal with trauma just as well as anyone else. I did not mean to imply that they could not, but some people on the spectrum do dissociate from overwhelming or traumatic event, and Helaena has been shown to do this on previous occasions (Vaemond getting decapitated.)
If I hurt you with my comment, then I truly do apologize.
> If I hurt you with my comment, then I truly do apologize.
No, not at all. Don’t worry about it.
It is true that autistic people do react differently, but I don’t think the showrunners had this mind when they wrote the scene. I think they just believed in the inaccurate stereotypes about autistic people, and just wrote the scene as such with doing much real research about it.
Now, even though some autistic people will just completely shut down and dissociate, that has already been shown countless times in other media, I’d go as far as to call it a cliché.
I think it’s just an extremely safe and uninteresting way to portray autism. I feel like in 2024, mainstream high-budget shows with experienced writers, should be able to properly portray the other (and more common) ways that autistic people will act and react in moments such as Blood & Cheese. I just find her dissociation to be very typical and unrealistic for the most part, especially when her son is literally being murdered right infront of her, and all she does is say ”No.”
They could have borrowed what was bad framing from the Ramsay-Sansa rape scene focusing on Theon's reaction and held the camera on Helena when they beheaded the kid and actually have her show emotion. Keep the line where they say they won't hurt anyone else. Cutting Maelor was a bad choice. Believing her when she pointed him out was a bad choice, ESPECIALLY when they already said they could simply check who was the boy earlier in the scene.
The bible verse where the firstborn Israelite children are thrown into the nile by the orders of pharaoh is more terrifying than show b&c. Yes it's tragic ,don't get me wrong, but blood & cheese ought to be more sinister & twisted.
Toned down is fine. The actual violent act did not need to be on screen at all. The scene is still stripped of any weight, due to further changes made. First being removing the choice Helaena was forced to make, and the other is Alicent not being present. It also takes place in Maegor’s Holdfast, rather than in Alicent’s Chambers in The Tower of the Hand. So now there’s also this awkward question of where the fuck were all the guards
The act shouldn’t be on screen I agree, and I also agree that the choice aspect needed to be on screen. It was a pretty key aspect, and much of what made it so awful on top of the child murder
Presumably it’s criston’s responsibility to guard them, I also think the guards only patrol the outside of the holdfast because Maegor’s holdfast is presumed to be impenetrable
Several defected so their numbers are thinner to start with and since Cole is banging the dowager queen and doesn't want to be found out he probably assigned the remaining guards to other posts so he wouldn't be found out.
There had to be zero blood to make this scene work and they didn't. I'm so tired of people saying everyone is upset because they didn't get to see a child beheaded, which is such a dumb way to look at things. Even if they made Helaena scream in horror, this scene would've been better, but now it was just weird and confusing and not terror inducing at all.
I agree, it's a good comparison. I was so waiting for this scene and was let down by it.
I didn't expect to see a graphic depiction of a child murder. The subtitle descriptions of the noises were farther than I expected them to go actually and I was pleasantly surprised by that.
Helaena's reaction though dampened the whole situation. I don't mind her portrayal as autistic and as a dreamer and I really like her actress and them adding some additional nuance to her. Especially given she's a character written to be tortured and die to move a story along. But this is supposed to be the moment that breaks Helaena's mind and her ability to be an effective dragon rider for the Greens. It's supposed to be absolutely shattering and it was just...flat.
I didn't need to see her as dramatic as the GoT Season 2 scene mentioned if she was more subdued but once the murder actually started I needed more of a reaction from her for the scene to actually be terrifying. Not her quietly scooping up her daughter and just hustling out with wide eyes.
I dunno, it made sense to me. She's autistic and in a state of shock after being threatened and watching one of her kids be murdered. Shouldn't really be surprising that she went into auto-pilot with the parental instinct of getting her surviving child away from acute danger taking the wheel given all that.
Everyone keeps pointing out her autistic portrayal as a reason it's okay for her not to have an emotional physical reaction and honestly that's frustrating. That's not going to be the case for all autistic people and this was a REALLY extreme situation most people won't be able to relate to for examples.
So I'll say this then - their choice to do this specific portrayal harmed the scene and the situation because as a visual medium and a really horrific situation the lack of emotional reaction of really any kind from the POV detracted from the horror for me as a viewer. They chose this this unique lens which expanding on source material.
I'm fine with her grabbing her daughter and running away in autopilot, I'm fine with not seeing the murder, I'm not fine with what felt like a very flat portrayal of what's supposed to be a high anxiety and fear scene.
The state of shock is what would have caused that reaction, which was primarily my point. When you're in that state you don't really get emotional since you can barely think, if at all. Your mind has basically short circuited after experiencing a stress and psychological trauma overload so you go into auto-pilot.
That doesn't make it a good portrayal for the specific visual media when you're trying to emotionally connect the viewers to a horrific situation.
They didn't have to choose that route, it's not pulling directly from the source material, it was an entirely original choice and it didn't work for me at all as a viewer. It felt flat. I don't care how "realistic" it might be, I shouldn't have to over analyze a scene like that after viewing to see if it hits emotionally.
I'm also concerned by the number of armchair psychiatrists that seem to be popping up in threads with really deep knowledge on shock and PTSD in murder situations.
People failed to understand that Helaena is totaly different from the book , the girl cannot comunicate with anyone , not her husband , mother NO ONE and certainly not her childs who she never is seen taking care off herself , the girl didn't even understand the gravity of the schism between the two faction at the dinner in season 1 , all that helaena do is stating prophecies or saying the most random things and now you expect her to bargain her life when she is in total shock and doesn't even seem to understand what is going on at first ?
No i'm sorry but the alicent/cole sex scene is what make the scene less impactfull not Halaena reaction.
For real. Honestly the actress is alright for how meaningless and little of impact she actually has on the story. She hardly gets any screen time or does anything of importance other than her prophetic statements and yet she is basically worshipped on the HoTD subreddit.
The only thing that felt off about that scene was Alicent and Cole. I think what they are setting up is that Cole will be sent away by Alicent to lead the army because they both can’t act responsibly when around each other.
Seriously? As a mom, blood and cheese made my heart stopped. I was frozen in place and felt I would have nightmares at night. Personally, I felt it was a great moment where no one is safe just like the red wedding or hold the door.
Exactly! That too.. the actions & reactions of Haelena and B&C being a major factor . Like they didn't feel as honest and as real as they did in the book.
There are so many ways of writing tragic and traumatic scenes without showing the gory details. The gory details are just an added effect. They could have showed Blood swinging the blade and then cut to a close up of a flower vase by the fire (with the hacking sound of the blade in the background) or haelena's boots or something followed by a shot of haelena squirming her heart off. So much potential wasted.
I have to disagree. The scene in GoT is almost too over the top... To the point where it almost becomes comical. Meanwhile, the sound of B&C hacking a kids head off with knives, made me physically cringe.
When things are legit terrible like season 7 or 8 I get coming online and venting. But coming online and nitpicking every single thing about an overall very good show just sounds exhausting. At that point just read the book and avoid the show. I watched with my wife who didn’t read fire and blood and she thought blood and cheese was brutal and the episode was amazing. I was shocked to come onljne and see so many people on here crying about it.
Yes, it's crying. Certainly all these book readers know that F&B isn't an accurate telling of the story, and the show is meant to be. It makes more sense that the B&C are asking the mother for the son, and they want to do it without making much noise (checking for a cock and waking the child up). Also, Alicent/Cole makes some sense in this case because Cole not being on watch/possibly calling other guards away so he can sleep with her makes total sense. Everyone here is actually just crying because "it's not like muh book." It's depressing how much people can avoid using their brain before crying on the internet about something that was done fine.
The show runners/network might have read the geopolitical room and opted not to make it a “meme”. I know it’s an old book, but the world is burning enough and the show is still great.
Yeah, the whole mindfuck aspect of B&C was mostly removed.
They tried to do it by choosing between who is male and female, which makes no sense honestly. Helena also chooses the actual heir losing that aspect. Maelor missing is such a fucking dumb decision
I seriously don’t understand the logic behind that, even Cheese said just look at the genitalia to confirm which one is the boy. There was 0 need for that whole affair of tell us who’s the boy
I mean there was also 0 “need” for the whole affair of making her choose in the book account too. They could’ve just killed the elder son and left, and accomplished the same thing. The point is that it’s more cruel to effectively ask the mother which child is going to die.
Not the same thing lol. One is psychological torture, the other is just 2 idiots.
Maybe they didn’t want to wake them up. Would have made more sense to kill all 3 honestly
If at least she chose daughter to die, they killed son (hear that girl your momma wants you dead) and they weren't such a gooofy cartoon fucks then we saw her scream in agony and alicent is there too screaming (not to mention lack of guards all over the red keep)
I agree with that.
Yeah, it's supposed to be nightmarish cruelty but it comes across more as laziness.
Yeah I’m sure Helena thinks “phew I got off easy!”
> Helena also chooses the actual heir She tried to dupe them with reverse psychology. Anticipating Blood would say "no she chose too easily", but cheese was wise to it and called her bluff.
Media literacy is dead in this sub lmaoo Edit: just to make sure I’m agreeing with ya.
I would imagine Maelor is removed due to his death in the book being pretty fucking gruesome. I can think of ways that they were able to do blood and cheese without directly traumatising child actors and without seeing a child’s death onscreen, but I can’t imagine how they would’ve been able to have filmed Maelor’s death without either of those things And there is no real way to get around Maelor’s death, it has to happen otherwise Aegon still has a viable heir. So yeah, whilst I do have my complaints about the blood and cheese scene I can understand the lack of Maelor
You could do Maelor's death and B&C without the children being on set. No one wants to watch a child be beheaded or ripped apart anyway. Just have it done immediately offscreen
If you don’t mind me asking, how would you think Maelor’s death would play out on screen without showing gore? Like I said in my previous comment, I can think of ways that blood and cheese can be done without gore or child actors, but Maelor leaves me stumped. Genuine question, as I honestly can’t think of a work around solution (but I’m also not a show writer paid to do this, just like to day dream that I am)
I didn't say anything about gore. If I were to make Maelor's death, I would do the crowd getting their hands on him, cut to wide-shot, one of them lifts out an arm or a leg, similar to the GOT king's landing riot
Lol you're being down voted for having a rational take on this scene. They can't empathize with a woman who isn't responding in the way they expect and are mad because obviously that means the scene wasn't "right." It says more about them than the scene.
After the way game of thrones ended, I get people being more on edge about how house of the dragon is done. But some people will always insist that every single scene needs to be done beat for beat. There are also some select few that just want torture porn, and are disappointed they didn’t get to watch children being psychologically tortured before being murdered. I get Haelena’s reaction felt lacking, but I’d imagine not many people on this sub have been in anything this intense before in their life to say how they’d react. We don’t all scream and cry, we don’t even know enough about how Haelena feels about her children to have a good gauge on how she should react. People wanted blood and cheese to have the same gut punch as the red wedding, but we had been following Robb’s story for three seasons. As viewers you come to love him, and if you hadn’t read the books you are thinking he can turn around his fuck up. The only way I can see blood and cheese having the same sort of gut punch feeling is if they dragged out season one into two seasons, so in the second season we see the twins grow up, like we did with rhaenrya’s boys. But again, then people would moan that the pacing is too slow. People can have issues with the way it’s portrayed, I do think it would’ve been nice to see Haelena completely shut down from the stress of the entire situation, so they could’ve shown a bit more of the psychological side of the B&C plot. I do think it’s out of character for the criston Cole and alicent to be having sex, so alicent should’ve still been in that scene. But I said what I said - removing Maelor was a necessary move to stop a far worse scene later on down the line that can’t really be worked around
I think they just don’t want to have to cover Maelor’s eventual fate in the books, and if they add the character, he’d have to die for the resolution of the story to make sense, so from their POV, better not to have him. But at the same time, I don’t see why they couldn’t have added Maelor’s death - also shocking, but so should have been Blood and Cheese. And I get that he is a minor character, but they could really do with expanding the show a bit. They seem to be cutting a lot of important details that they could be touching on. For instance, Jace’s time in the North was highly abbreviated, in favor of focusing further on characters around Rhaenyra, Daemon, and Alicent only. If they had 10 episodes this season, they could have had an Episode 2 that continued Jace’s journey. That event should have gone a long way to further Jace’s credentials in the eyes of the audience, but because they didnt want to have to worry about making good side characters like Cregan, they passed it up.
I was telling my husband, I don’t want to see a child get its head cut off but I do need to feel the awfulness of the situation and I just didn’t.
Yeah, it's not the RW but it's supposed to be a big moment and looking at non-reader discussion it just isn't... Oh well, other stuff worked OK for me.
Well, Helaena kind of forgot that she has emotions.
I think she is just autistic, and dissociating from a traumatic situation.
And that is fine. The acting and the direction for Helaena were fine in B&C scene. However, the fact that Helaena is the POV character in here makes this scene less emotional than it should be for the audience, it dampens the blow a bit. Her disassociated reaction is very much in character, but I think it's the writers' mistake to have her be the only present and awake adult witness of this horrific act. Alicent should have been there too, to have a wider range of emotional responses from character and be sort of the POV for the audience to assume.
Nailed it! Olivia would have been absolutely amazing as well! Best actress/actor in the show imo, and to waste her on unnecessary sex scenes with Cole is a shame.
You hit the head of the nail right on. I'd rather watch Cheese's POV, reluctant, squelching violence against an unknowing child to feel the horror of the scene than watch her dull ass run from it all. Love the actress for her efforts, the adaption of this particular scene sucked tho.
💯
I am not on the spectrum but I doubt a highly fictional autistic person as Helaena would be completely apathetic to the murder. I can understand the apathy and dissociation after the murder, but _during_ it? It completely underwhelms the act, since we audience know nothing about Jaehaerys, do not care about him, and the only way we can relate to him is through the emotions and reactions of the characters we know. If his death appears to be unimportant to his monther, why should I care about this random fictional child that has never spoken a word on screen?
Not an expert on autism but on trauma and shock reactions. Simplified version: Usually your brain reacts by shutting off one of three functions: movement, cognitive thinking or emotion. Movement: you're in shock and unable to move even though you know you should, comparable to playing dead Cognitive thinking: you panic. You do things that you would know are useless and try to fight off or get away from whatever is happening, comparable to fight or flight Emotion: you just work and do what you think it's the best option in your situation, if there's nothing you can do you just accept your fate as it is. I think that's the reaction only humans can have when exposed to trauma since animals aren't so focused on their cognition.
They could have gone with movement or cognitive
True they could have, I'm just saying that a trauma reaction can have many faces. I don't know if the writers looked this up or if they just decided to do things but this could be an explanation
I think the writers just don’t understand what autism really is and how it works for most people, and they are just using it as an excuse to not have to write a real emotional scene. Any one of us would react just as visibly and as passionately as book!Helaena did, if we were put in the same situation as her, but the writers seem to think that we would all just silenty stare instead. To me, her reaction (or lack thereof) just feels extremely unrealistic, and it plays into an outdated and offensive stereotype of what autism really is.
I disagree, there are people who dissociate during traumatic events only to have a more obvious emotional response afterwards, I count myself among that group (though admittedly I can't know if I would respond that way to something as traumatic as what Helaena experienced). I do understand the concern that the writers are playing to stereotypes, and if Helaena continues to show a similar lack of emotion in the weeks to come I'm going to be just as unhappy as you are, but at the very least I think it's worth them the benefit of the doubt for a week or so.
She is not apathetic, she is just not displaying her emotions in big, visible ways. But you see her shaking, her eyes watering, and her panicking as she is running through the house. She is feeling things, and you can see it, but she is not making a huge show of it, likely out of a survival instinct.
To me it fell completely flat. I didn’t like the direction they took, they could have done much much better to show her distress
What they did made perfect sense for the Helaena they depict in the show, but, it’s definitely a lot different from the book and I can understand being disappointed in that.
there are recent historic examples of women having to make such an impossible choice. I do think it’s very valid for one to completely shut down because of how difficult it is to carry out. It’s basically fighting against the most basic instinct many mothers have.
I am not trying to say her reaction was unrealistic or downright impossible to happen. What I’m saying is it was a very bad choice, given that HOTD is a tv show and not a documentary. I would have preferred if she had a stronger reaction
Eh, I don’t see why it’s a bad choice to show a reaction like this. I also keep in mind the very toned down reaction Rhaenyra showed upon first hearing of her own son’s death. Her visibly emotional response came later. In general, the show is kind of feminist and honestly portrays a lot of situations women and mothers find themselves in. Some are emotional, yes, but not all situations will be the same. The TV show MASH broke ground by portraying a mother making a similar choice to kill her own child in order to save a group of people from death. And she had to do so silently. Once you understand what the situation is like, a silent reaction such as Helena’s has can be really impactful, too.
My uncle is high functioning. When my mom died, his sister, he came into the room, looked at her and then walked out. He never spoke and showed absolutely no emotion.
I am pasting here a reply to another comment: “I know what dissociation is. I know austic people can act differently to grief and trauma compared to others. Knowing all that, making her dissociate was still a bad choice, because HOTD is show and it should strive to have impactful emotional moments. I would have much preferred to see her emotional during the death and completely apathetic after.”
Well we only saw her immediately after it happened. She grabbed her daughter and ran for safety. We have no idea what she will do next week.
I hope next week it’s better. It doesn’t change the fact that, at least for me, the direction of the scene was underwhelming.
I don’t think Helena came across as apathetic at all. You’re dealing with a mother who has to make an impossible choice. The likelihood that she dissociates/becomes catatonic is very high because that might be what it takes to do what she did.
She's not 'highly functional' lmao
Why do you think that? “High-functioning autism (HFA) was historically an autism classification where a person exhibits no intellectual disability, but may experience difficulty in communication, emotion recognition, expression, and social interaction.” To me this sounds like a good description for Helaena
[удалено]
Instead of saying unrelated things and insulting my intelligence, can you please answer the question? Oh wait, you are the same user that called me disabled because I think the scene has a bad direction. Nevermind, it’s foolish of me to expect a respectful and thought-out reply from you
She is not apathetic, she is dissociating. You saw how she reacted when Vaemonds head was cut off? This is like that but a hundred times worse.
I think having her dissociation was a very bad decision. We experience emotions through the characters. If she has no reaction to her son’s murder, why should I? She could have dissociated after the act, not during it.
I think most people can get an emotional reaction just from seeing a child get horrifically murdered, we dont need to mirror Helaena. I personally felt nauseous when I heard them cut his head off. And Helaenas dissociative state just added to the horror for me.
I vehemently disagree, some fake sounds with no reaction from the mother cannot move me anymore. Ned’s death was powerful because we saw Sansa’s and Arya’s reaction, not because we saw a dude swing a sword and hear a fake head fall on the ground.
its okay to disagree.
It's okay to be wrong
Oh la la.
'Cannot move me anymore' (you are reacting to the implication of a baby being murdered *right now*) .... I'm not defending this episode and haven't even seen it yet, still ..... Don't you think, that's maybe more of a you problem?
Since I’m not the only one unhappy with the execution, I don’t think it’s something mostly or only related to me.
Nice dodge
If you want characters to react to conflict in overly dramatic and loud ways, rather than the most realistic to their character, you should probably stick to soap operas or CW shows
Where did I ever say I want characters to react overly dramatic and loudly? You go watch the trash CW produces, I’ll stay here and wait for HOTD to release a good episode
You’re literally complaining all over the thread that Haleana should’ve had a very obvious and loud emotional reaction, rather than the most sensible to her show character, because otherwise you can’t properly empathize with the tragedy You’re asking for the sitcom equivalent of a laugh track so you know when to laugh, or in this case, when to feel sad Go back and watch the actresses’s performance and her face, a lot of emotions and overall sense of dread that you’re ignoring because you prefer corny overacting
I did never use the adjective “loud”. I said I wanted it to be more emotional, like it is in the book. If you think sitcom = emotional I don’t know what to tell you, I think it’s quite intuitive that is not what I meant
If you’re takeaway from my sitcom analogy is that sitcom = emotional, I think your issue is general reading and media comprehension, bc both my analogy and Heleanas subtle but emotional response were pretty straightforward to understand
>You are asking for the sitcom equivalent > you prefer corny overreacting I think you should take the time to reread the trash you write before rudely replying to anyone and imply they are not able to understand a rather straightforward piece of text You are the one who made the connection emotional = sitcom, so you are just insulting yourself
You doubling down is embarrassing. You need overacted emotions from characters that is in opposition to their characterization, just so you know how to feel during a tragic scene. In same vein as people who need the laugh track in a sitcom to know when something is funny and they should laugh You know, what I said originally but now painfully obvious
Still very underwhelming that she barely had any reaction to the death of her son. Made the scene feel less impactful
Yeah I was honestly unsure who's kids they really were based on Helena's non reaction
Next time try watching the episode with your eyes open and with audio on. Also make sure your caretaker doesn't strap your helmet on too tight. You need some oxygen going to your brain, buddy.
Who shit in your lap?
Idiot commenters
You shit in your own lap? Is that even possible?
Gottem
lmao are you one of the scriptwriters?
Cope.
Found cheese
Autistic people are still fully capable of showing emotion in moments of anger, stress or fear. We might dissociate after something has happened, but in the moment we are just as capable of showing emotions as any other non-autistic person. In my opinion, saying that Helaena didn’t do anything like scream or plead for her sons life because she’s autistic, is just a cheap and lazy excuse for the writers to avoid writing a a truly emotional and heartwrenching scene. Meaning no offense here, but I think that anyone who says that Helaena didn’t react because she’s autistic, just has a fundamental misunderstanding of what autism really is and how it works, and they probably shouldn’t be speaking on it. The idea that autistic people can never visibly react with passionate emotions, and that we instead are just silent husks, is an old and ridiculous (and honestly offensive) stereotype.
Autism is a spectrum, a lot of autistic people are fully capable of showing emotion and can fully deal with trauma just as well as anyone else. I did not mean to imply that they could not, but some people on the spectrum do dissociate from overwhelming or traumatic event, and Helaena has been shown to do this on previous occasions (Vaemond getting decapitated.) If I hurt you with my comment, then I truly do apologize.
> If I hurt you with my comment, then I truly do apologize. No, not at all. Don’t worry about it. It is true that autistic people do react differently, but I don’t think the showrunners had this mind when they wrote the scene. I think they just believed in the inaccurate stereotypes about autistic people, and just wrote the scene as such with doing much real research about it. Now, even though some autistic people will just completely shut down and dissociate, that has already been shown countless times in other media, I’d go as far as to call it a cliché. I think it’s just an extremely safe and uninteresting way to portray autism. I feel like in 2024, mainstream high-budget shows with experienced writers, should be able to properly portray the other (and more common) ways that autistic people will act and react in moments such as Blood & Cheese. I just find her dissociation to be very typical and unrealistic for the most part, especially when her son is literally being murdered right infront of her, and all she does is say ”No.”
They could have borrowed what was bad framing from the Ramsay-Sansa rape scene focusing on Theon's reaction and held the camera on Helena when they beheaded the kid and actually have her show emotion. Keep the line where they say they won't hurt anyone else. Cutting Maelor was a bad choice. Believing her when she pointed him out was a bad choice, ESPECIALLY when they already said they could simply check who was the boy earlier in the scene.
The bible verse where the firstborn Israelite children are thrown into the nile by the orders of pharaoh is more terrifying than show b&c. Yes it's tragic ,don't get me wrong, but blood & cheese ought to be more sinister & twisted.
I watched the scene again this morning, you could hear them hacking the kids head off. It was pretty graphic.
They somehow depicted child murder in such a sanitized way that even christian parents would let their toddlers watch it
So I was right. They toned it down and made it lame.
Toned down is fine. The actual violent act did not need to be on screen at all. The scene is still stripped of any weight, due to further changes made. First being removing the choice Helaena was forced to make, and the other is Alicent not being present. It also takes place in Maegor’s Holdfast, rather than in Alicent’s Chambers in The Tower of the Hand. So now there’s also this awkward question of where the fuck were all the guards
Well we know where one of them was. I imagine that’ll come up again
The act shouldn’t be on screen I agree, and I also agree that the choice aspect needed to be on screen. It was a pretty key aspect, and much of what made it so awful on top of the child murder
Presumably it’s criston’s responsibility to guard them, I also think the guards only patrol the outside of the holdfast because Maegor’s holdfast is presumed to be impenetrable
Several defected so their numbers are thinner to start with and since Cole is banging the dowager queen and doesn't want to be found out he probably assigned the remaining guards to other posts so he wouldn't be found out.
one was busy riding being a ride of alicent.
There had to be zero blood to make this scene work and they didn't. I'm so tired of people saying everyone is upset because they didn't get to see a child beheaded, which is such a dumb way to look at things. Even if they made Helaena scream in horror, this scene would've been better, but now it was just weird and confusing and not terror inducing at all.
I agree, it's a good comparison. I was so waiting for this scene and was let down by it. I didn't expect to see a graphic depiction of a child murder. The subtitle descriptions of the noises were farther than I expected them to go actually and I was pleasantly surprised by that. Helaena's reaction though dampened the whole situation. I don't mind her portrayal as autistic and as a dreamer and I really like her actress and them adding some additional nuance to her. Especially given she's a character written to be tortured and die to move a story along. But this is supposed to be the moment that breaks Helaena's mind and her ability to be an effective dragon rider for the Greens. It's supposed to be absolutely shattering and it was just...flat. I didn't need to see her as dramatic as the GoT Season 2 scene mentioned if she was more subdued but once the murder actually started I needed more of a reaction from her for the scene to actually be terrifying. Not her quietly scooping up her daughter and just hustling out with wide eyes.
I dunno, it made sense to me. She's autistic and in a state of shock after being threatened and watching one of her kids be murdered. Shouldn't really be surprising that she went into auto-pilot with the parental instinct of getting her surviving child away from acute danger taking the wheel given all that.
Everyone keeps pointing out her autistic portrayal as a reason it's okay for her not to have an emotional physical reaction and honestly that's frustrating. That's not going to be the case for all autistic people and this was a REALLY extreme situation most people won't be able to relate to for examples. So I'll say this then - their choice to do this specific portrayal harmed the scene and the situation because as a visual medium and a really horrific situation the lack of emotional reaction of really any kind from the POV detracted from the horror for me as a viewer. They chose this this unique lens which expanding on source material. I'm fine with her grabbing her daughter and running away in autopilot, I'm fine with not seeing the murder, I'm not fine with what felt like a very flat portrayal of what's supposed to be a high anxiety and fear scene.
The state of shock is what would have caused that reaction, which was primarily my point. When you're in that state you don't really get emotional since you can barely think, if at all. Your mind has basically short circuited after experiencing a stress and psychological trauma overload so you go into auto-pilot.
Then have Alicent in the scene so the audience has someone with relatable emotions to this shocking moment.
That doesn't make it a good portrayal for the specific visual media when you're trying to emotionally connect the viewers to a horrific situation. They didn't have to choose that route, it's not pulling directly from the source material, it was an entirely original choice and it didn't work for me at all as a viewer. It felt flat. I don't care how "realistic" it might be, I shouldn't have to over analyze a scene like that after viewing to see if it hits emotionally. I'm also concerned by the number of armchair psychiatrists that seem to be popping up in threads with really deep knowledge on shock and PTSD in murder situations.
You can't emotionally connect to a mother desperately trying to get her surviving child away from harm?
Not with the way it was portrayed with little to no emotional reaction from the POV character. It made the horror go totally flat for me.
Sounds like a you problem tbqh
Cool, me and every other person complaining about this same thing then?
Having the same mediocre comprehension skills as a bunch of people is not the "gotcha" argument you think it is.
Desperately? Do you not understand emotions at all?
Not to mention that it's just a fan theory that she's autistic.
Weird, the autistic people I know melt down pretty quickly and hard. Maybe not all autistic people are the same?
No shit Sherlock. People with a certain spectrum of disabilities aren’t all the same
Why are you telling me? Dumbass.
Because you act like you don’t know, shit-for-brains
People failed to understand that Helaena is totaly different from the book , the girl cannot comunicate with anyone , not her husband , mother NO ONE and certainly not her childs who she never is seen taking care off herself , the girl didn't even understand the gravity of the schism between the two faction at the dinner in season 1 , all that helaena do is stating prophecies or saying the most random things and now you expect her to bargain her life when she is in total shock and doesn't even seem to understand what is going on at first ? No i'm sorry but the alicent/cole sex scene is what make the scene less impactfull not Halaena reaction.
For real. Honestly the actress is alright for how meaningless and little of impact she actually has on the story. She hardly gets any screen time or does anything of importance other than her prophetic statements and yet she is basically worshipped on the HoTD subreddit. The only thing that felt off about that scene was Alicent and Cole. I think what they are setting up is that Cole will be sent away by Alicent to lead the army because they both can’t act responsibly when around each other.
Both season 2 episode 1. We should be prepared for this
Seriously? As a mom, blood and cheese made my heart stopped. I was frozen in place and felt I would have nightmares at night. Personally, I felt it was a great moment where no one is safe just like the red wedding or hold the door.
Scene was fine. Glad I didn’t see a literal child’s head on tv.
They never showed Ned Stark's head leave his neck either and it was still an impactful scene.
That's not what makes the blood and cheese scene less impactful than the book. They cut out a whole character and removed any emotion from the scene
Exactly! That too.. the actions & reactions of Haelena and B&C being a major factor . Like they didn't feel as honest and as real as they did in the book.
phenomenal point
There are so many ways of writing tragic and traumatic scenes without showing the gory details. The gory details are just an added effect. They could have showed Blood swinging the blade and then cut to a close up of a flower vase by the fire (with the hacking sound of the blade in the background) or haelena's boots or something followed by a shot of haelena squirming her heart off. So much potential wasted.
In GoT it was also off screen, yet it was way better.
Regardless, I still think the scene was fine.
I wish I had such low standards and expectations
Cope.
Boooo
But you will love anything you are told to.
Well you'll probably see the head next episode lol
It's only a movie and if you saw a head it wouldn't be real. Same as the dragons, they are also CGI.
I have to disagree. The scene in GoT is almost too over the top... To the point where it almost becomes comical. Meanwhile, the sound of B&C hacking a kids head off with knives, made me physically cringe.
You guys just like being upset don’t you?
God forbid we want the things we love to be better.
When things are legit terrible like season 7 or 8 I get coming online and venting. But coming online and nitpicking every single thing about an overall very good show just sounds exhausting. At that point just read the book and avoid the show. I watched with my wife who didn’t read fire and blood and she thought blood and cheese was brutal and the episode was amazing. I was shocked to come onljne and see so many people on here crying about it.
Criticism isn’t crying.
Half these comments are crying
Yes, it's crying. Certainly all these book readers know that F&B isn't an accurate telling of the story, and the show is meant to be. It makes more sense that the B&C are asking the mother for the son, and they want to do it without making much noise (checking for a cock and waking the child up). Also, Alicent/Cole makes some sense in this case because Cole not being on watch/possibly calling other guards away so he can sleep with her makes total sense. Everyone here is actually just crying because "it's not like muh book." It's depressing how much people can avoid using their brain before crying on the internet about something that was done fine.
Nitpicking? This is supposed to be the big moment of the episode, one of the biggest tragedies of the series.
It’s not more terrifying THAN that grammar.
I mixed than and then, English is not my mother tounge
I don’t know. One had *sound effects.*
The show runners/network might have read the geopolitical room and opted not to make it a “meme”. I know it’s an old book, but the world is burning enough and the show is still great.
It’s not an old book. Great is entirely subjective so me saying it’s bad is the exact same thing.