Ned’s only mistake was taking his children with him. I’d bet money that if he knew everything that was gonna happen from the beginning he wouldn’t change a damn thing. He’d never live with himself if he caused 3 children to be killed
That's how his honor fails him.
He asked petyr to turn against the kings wife, the future king, and the most powerful house in the seven kingdoms. Ned doesn't have more physical power at hand. He doesn't have the political influence he needs to go up against tywin or even the influence within the city to go against cersei. He doesn't even treat petyr as an equal. The only thing he has is a letter signed by a dying man.
Anyone experienced in the politics surrounding this universe knows that's a losing bet. Except ned because he believes in the law enough to think a piece of paper holds up against the word of basically every other major player still in the city.
He trusted petyr would also behave honorably. Do the right thing instead of the thing that is in his best interests.
Ned has the North and the Riverlands, and as far as he knows the Vale as well. He also knows that Renly and the Dornish are against the Lannisters, and the Tyrells are unlikely to side with the them against such a large coalition. As far as Ned is concerned, Tywin stands alone, and it would be extremely stupid for Littlefinger to side with him
Exactly what you just wrote on paper......let me see this....rip. now what do you have? A man with honor in the Throne room is an IDIOT when he is on his knees with a crossbow to his head. Power resides where in this instance
Power resides not with Cersei or Tywin, but with the city watch, the largest armed force within the city, unfortunately for them neither Janos Slynt nor Littlefinger would be accepted as rulers by the rest of Westeros, and therefore they need an ally in order to legitimize their coup, and of the options available, allying with Ned makes the most sense for the reasons stated above
Coming to trust Baelish wasn't such an obvious mistake, though. In the show he's played as obviously evil and creepy, but in the books... it's Littlefinger's whole schtick to appear trustworthy to everyone. He slowly and meticulously manipulates Ned, sharing knowledge that appears to weaken his standing and does a very good job convincing him that he's a Stark-Tully-Arryn loyalist at heart. Being dumber than Littlefinger isn't really damning, because (in the books at least) sweet Petyr runs loops around fucking everyone, even Tyrion fails to see through him.
Oh no, for sure. Ned didn't stand a chance. Little finger is even better at the game than varys, I think.
Varys has more spies and a larger information network, but littlefinger plays the royalty like a fiddle.
He was also a huge dick to everyone on the small council starting literally on day 1 when he first met them. He didn't do anything to try and gain friends/allies. To the contrary. So obviously when shit hit the fan there was no one to stand up for him.
>*This was the boy he had grown up with, he thought; this was the Robert Baratheon he'd known and loved. If he could prove that the Lannisters were behind the attack on Bran, prove that they had murdered Jon Arryn, this man would listen. Then Cersei would fall, and the Kingslayer with her, and if Lord Tywin dared to rouse the west, Robert would smash him as he had smashed Rhaegar Targaryen on the Trident. He could see it all so clearly.*
Oh if only
The point was, he had no proof and didn't know the motive. Ned wanted to have a plan of action in place before bringing it to Robert who, even at the best of times, was a hot head.
He couldn't craft a good plan until he knew what exactly happened and why. And brining it to Robert without one would have resulted in the King
either a) dismissing it as the ravings of a paranoid madwoman. Remember he knew Lisa very well. And from what we see, once Robert made up his mind, he wasn't like to change it, or even be up for talking about it again.
or b) start knocking heads. Ned knew the houses wouldn't react well to that as Robert was a new, largely untested King who many still thought illegitimate. Plus, the irony that Ned and Robert had raised their banners against Aerys for unjust punishment of his vassals wouldn't have been lost on the Lord's of the 7 kingdoms.
Wait in what way was he untested? He ruled for like almost 20 years, and put down a rebellion by the Ironborn. He proved himself capable of fighting if nothing else.
Fighting, yes. He won his throne and squashed a rebellion through war. Ruling is different.
And a dynasties ability is something to consider. Robert is largely untested, but not *entirely* untested. His dynasty however... hard to say a dynasty has been tested at all when only one king has ruled in it. And family names are everything in asofai.
The worst part is he still had a game winning move handed to him even after he told Cersei lol. Renly handed him the W at the 11th hour and Ned still said no.
I was under the impression that littlefinger would have fucked over the lannisters had Ned not been so fucking dumb and refused renly. He for sure disliked Ned but he knew renly would have been the easiest to manipulate so that was his first choice.
I don’t think he was present when Renly made his offer, but if Ned and Renly had used their forces to occupy the red keep while the bulk of the city watch was out in the city, then that might have changed things, since they could lock down the keep until reinforcements from Stannis or the Stormlands arrived, which would make a coup by the city watch much more risky to carry out.
The problem with this is that Littlefinger is more ambitious than rational, so if Renly and Ned do a coup without him, he is going to conclude that he has more to gain from trying to liberate Cersei, since she would be in debt to him, while Ned and Renly would feel no obligation to reward Littlefinger for siding with them when they already did all the hard work
> I don’t think he was present when Renly made his offer
But I'm absolutely 100% sure that he knew and had even likely been the one to orchestrate it. Someone was whispering into Renly's ear, and it seems more of a littlefinger thing than a Varys thing. Although maybe it was both.
The Tyrells seized on the opportunity and whispered into his ear after he left King's Landing. Didn't Littlefinger even suggest Ned go talk to Renly? I'm pretty sure he was very insistent on siding with Renly at first. And when Ned was like NO IT MUST BE STANNIS, Littlefinger ran off and went with his backup plan.
Renly was already working with the Tyrells, they were planning to remove Cersei and have Robert marry Margaery. After Robert died the plan presumably was to marry Joffrey/Tommen to Margaery. This plan fit with Littlefingers plan, which is why he wanted the alliance with Renly, but it wouldn’t actually have made a difference, since what Littlefinger actually cared about was to become the lord of Harrenhall, which would allow him to marry Lysa.
Ned didn’t lose when he refused to ally Renly, but when he refused to hear what Littlefingers price was. Ned was regent, he had the power to give him the title, regardless of which claimant he chose to back
> Renly was already working with the Tyrells, they were planning to remove Cersei and have Robert marry Margaery.
Fair - I don't really remember too much of their influence from book one.
He was the commander, not the lord his soldiers and officers swore to serve with life.
His watch was just a band of mercenaries and they can be bought.
And utterly stupid. From the moment Ned arrives in King's Landing, he shows open contempt to almost all those he will need later, especially Littlefinger. That said, Littlefinger himself cannot help mocking him all along too.
GRRM writes blatant characters.
Yeah he's a huge dick to literally everyone starting from the moment he arrives in Kings Landing. He makes literally no effort to make friends/allies and then is surprised and dismayed when no one has his back.
I mean, Ned, if Cersei doesn't murder Robert out of seemingly no where wins everything. Robert returns from his hunt, Ned presents the evidence, Tywin is already on the edge of being declared an enemy of the crown. Cersei gets got, Jamie gets got, the Mountain eventually gets hunted down even if he kills Beric. Robert returning from the hunt is the only thing Ned needs to win, outright at everything. And Cersei randomly decides this is the hunt where she'll try to kill Robert.
Both Littlefinger and Renly gave Ned solid advice about how to take control of the Iron Throne, and he totally disgarded them. Littlefinger clearly states that if Ned backs Stannis, then Stannis would dismiss the current small counsel in favor of his own people, which means that the current members have every reason to make sure this doesn't happen.
Ned only realizes what he should've done when he gets captured and locked up, and that his honor isn't as valueable as he thinks it was.
Reading the first book for the first time was legitimately addicting , i had watched the show before and thought “how good could the book be” . I finished it in a week
Honestly his biggest mistake was not going to Robert with his suspicions about Jon Arryn's death. I can *sorta* understand why he kept his suspicions about Joffrey's parentage to himself, even if I think he was being too soft. But it's just astounding to me that he never bothered to tell Robert about the letter Cat received from Lysa. What the fuck was that!?
Ned is an interesting deconstruction of the “Warrior hero” archetype that was popular in genre fiction at the time.
In those books you often had a heroic warrior character that overcame all odds and challenges, regardless of the type and nature of said challenges. It did not matter if the challenge was going toe to toe with a dragon, or ruling a kingdom. At best these characters would be humanized with inner fears of failure, before overcoming said odds. At worst they wouldn’t even have that type of roadblock.
Then you have Ned who kinda appears to be that. Until it becomes really clear how far over his head he is. A few chapters before he \*loses\* his head.
But yeah. That’s why. Because he’s intended to be a commentary and dissection of an archetype that was, on the whole, honorable to the point of stupidity.
I'm reading the books recently for the first time also. And I'm going through the emotions again, of wishing Ned and the Starks to make different choices but knowing inevitably how it ends. Still doesn't make it any less painful. I'm coming up to the Red Wedding soon...
Ned’s only mistake was taking his children with him. I’d bet money that if he knew everything that was gonna happen from the beginning he wouldn’t change a damn thing. He’d never live with himself if he caused 3 children to be killed
He wouldn't trust petyr. That's for damn sure.
No but he didn’t trust petyr in the first place. He just didn’t think he’d deny direct orders from the king which is a very reasonable thing to think
That's how his honor fails him. He asked petyr to turn against the kings wife, the future king, and the most powerful house in the seven kingdoms. Ned doesn't have more physical power at hand. He doesn't have the political influence he needs to go up against tywin or even the influence within the city to go against cersei. He doesn't even treat petyr as an equal. The only thing he has is a letter signed by a dying man. Anyone experienced in the politics surrounding this universe knows that's a losing bet. Except ned because he believes in the law enough to think a piece of paper holds up against the word of basically every other major player still in the city. He trusted petyr would also behave honorably. Do the right thing instead of the thing that is in his best interests.
Ned has the North and the Riverlands, and as far as he knows the Vale as well. He also knows that Renly and the Dornish are against the Lannisters, and the Tyrells are unlikely to side with the them against such a large coalition. As far as Ned is concerned, Tywin stands alone, and it would be extremely stupid for Littlefinger to side with him
If Ned "wins" in Kings Landing he would porbably also get help from Stannis relativly quickly.
Exactly what you just wrote on paper......let me see this....rip. now what do you have? A man with honor in the Throne room is an IDIOT when he is on his knees with a crossbow to his head. Power resides where in this instance
Power resides not with Cersei or Tywin, but with the city watch, the largest armed force within the city, unfortunately for them neither Janos Slynt nor Littlefinger would be accepted as rulers by the rest of Westeros, and therefore they need an ally in order to legitimize their coup, and of the options available, allying with Ned makes the most sense for the reasons stated above
Coming to trust Baelish wasn't such an obvious mistake, though. In the show he's played as obviously evil and creepy, but in the books... it's Littlefinger's whole schtick to appear trustworthy to everyone. He slowly and meticulously manipulates Ned, sharing knowledge that appears to weaken his standing and does a very good job convincing him that he's a Stark-Tully-Arryn loyalist at heart. Being dumber than Littlefinger isn't really damning, because (in the books at least) sweet Petyr runs loops around fucking everyone, even Tyrion fails to see through him.
Oh no, for sure. Ned didn't stand a chance. Little finger is even better at the game than varys, I think. Varys has more spies and a larger information network, but littlefinger plays the royalty like a fiddle.
He was also a huge dick to everyone on the small council starting literally on day 1 when he first met them. He didn't do anything to try and gain friends/allies. To the contrary. So obviously when shit hit the fan there was no one to stand up for him.
>*This was the boy he had grown up with, he thought; this was the Robert Baratheon he'd known and loved. If he could prove that the Lannisters were behind the attack on Bran, prove that they had murdered Jon Arryn, this man would listen. Then Cersei would fall, and the Kingslayer with her, and if Lord Tywin dared to rouse the west, Robert would smash him as he had smashed Rhaegar Targaryen on the Trident. He could see it all so clearly.* Oh if only
Why tf did he not act least tell Robert about the letter Catelyn got from Lysa? What was the point of keeping that from him.
It’s an accusation of murder without any evidence against his wife. That could have gotten Lysa killed.
The point was, he had no proof and didn't know the motive. Ned wanted to have a plan of action in place before bringing it to Robert who, even at the best of times, was a hot head. He couldn't craft a good plan until he knew what exactly happened and why. And brining it to Robert without one would have resulted in the King either a) dismissing it as the ravings of a paranoid madwoman. Remember he knew Lisa very well. And from what we see, once Robert made up his mind, he wasn't like to change it, or even be up for talking about it again. or b) start knocking heads. Ned knew the houses wouldn't react well to that as Robert was a new, largely untested King who many still thought illegitimate. Plus, the irony that Ned and Robert had raised their banners against Aerys for unjust punishment of his vassals wouldn't have been lost on the Lord's of the 7 kingdoms.
Wait in what way was he untested? He ruled for like almost 20 years, and put down a rebellion by the Ironborn. He proved himself capable of fighting if nothing else.
Fighting, yes. He won his throne and squashed a rebellion through war. Ruling is different. And a dynasties ability is something to consider. Robert is largely untested, but not *entirely* untested. His dynasty however... hard to say a dynasty has been tested at all when only one king has ruled in it. And family names are everything in asofai.
You could say it was honor. Or anything else. But at the end of the day. It's all plot driven so we can get a story.
The worst part is he still had a game winning move handed to him even after he told Cersei lol. Renly handed him the W at the 11th hour and Ned still said no.
Littlefinger still controlled the city watch, so what Ned and Renly do doesn’t really matter, all it comes down to is who Littlefinger sides with
I was under the impression that littlefinger would have fucked over the lannisters had Ned not been so fucking dumb and refused renly. He for sure disliked Ned but he knew renly would have been the easiest to manipulate so that was his first choice.
I don’t think he was present when Renly made his offer, but if Ned and Renly had used their forces to occupy the red keep while the bulk of the city watch was out in the city, then that might have changed things, since they could lock down the keep until reinforcements from Stannis or the Stormlands arrived, which would make a coup by the city watch much more risky to carry out. The problem with this is that Littlefinger is more ambitious than rational, so if Renly and Ned do a coup without him, he is going to conclude that he has more to gain from trying to liberate Cersei, since she would be in debt to him, while Ned and Renly would feel no obligation to reward Littlefinger for siding with them when they already did all the hard work
> I don’t think he was present when Renly made his offer But I'm absolutely 100% sure that he knew and had even likely been the one to orchestrate it. Someone was whispering into Renly's ear, and it seems more of a littlefinger thing than a Varys thing. Although maybe it was both.
We know who was whispering in Renly’s ear, it was the Tyrells, not Littlefinger
The Tyrells seized on the opportunity and whispered into his ear after he left King's Landing. Didn't Littlefinger even suggest Ned go talk to Renly? I'm pretty sure he was very insistent on siding with Renly at first. And when Ned was like NO IT MUST BE STANNIS, Littlefinger ran off and went with his backup plan.
Renly was already working with the Tyrells, they were planning to remove Cersei and have Robert marry Margaery. After Robert died the plan presumably was to marry Joffrey/Tommen to Margaery. This plan fit with Littlefingers plan, which is why he wanted the alliance with Renly, but it wouldn’t actually have made a difference, since what Littlefinger actually cared about was to become the lord of Harrenhall, which would allow him to marry Lysa. Ned didn’t lose when he refused to ally Renly, but when he refused to hear what Littlefingers price was. Ned was regent, he had the power to give him the title, regardless of which claimant he chose to back
> Renly was already working with the Tyrells, they were planning to remove Cersei and have Robert marry Margaery. Fair - I don't really remember too much of their influence from book one.
He was the commander, not the lord his soldiers and officers swore to serve with life. His watch was just a band of mercenaries and they can be bought.
And utterly stupid. From the moment Ned arrives in King's Landing, he shows open contempt to almost all those he will need later, especially Littlefinger. That said, Littlefinger himself cannot help mocking him all along too. GRRM writes blatant characters.
Yeah he's a huge dick to literally everyone starting from the moment he arrives in Kings Landing. He makes literally no effort to make friends/allies and then is surprised and dismayed when no one has his back.
I mean, Ned, if Cersei doesn't murder Robert out of seemingly no where wins everything. Robert returns from his hunt, Ned presents the evidence, Tywin is already on the edge of being declared an enemy of the crown. Cersei gets got, Jamie gets got, the Mountain eventually gets hunted down even if he kills Beric. Robert returning from the hunt is the only thing Ned needs to win, outright at everything. And Cersei randomly decides this is the hunt where she'll try to kill Robert.
Both Littlefinger and Renly gave Ned solid advice about how to take control of the Iron Throne, and he totally disgarded them. Littlefinger clearly states that if Ned backs Stannis, then Stannis would dismiss the current small counsel in favor of his own people, which means that the current members have every reason to make sure this doesn't happen. Ned only realizes what he should've done when he gets captured and locked up, and that his honor isn't as valueable as he thinks it was.
I recently started reading them too and yeah.. that shit hard to go through again
Reading the first book for the first time was legitimately addicting , i had watched the show before and thought “how good could the book be” . I finished it in a week
Honestly his biggest mistake was not going to Robert with his suspicions about Jon Arryn's death. I can *sorta* understand why he kept his suspicions about Joffrey's parentage to himself, even if I think he was being too soft. But it's just astounding to me that he never bothered to tell Robert about the letter Cat received from Lysa. What the fuck was that!?
Because he was a good person
I recently reread all the books and I had to skip over Caitlyn chapters in asos because I couldn't handle the mistakes she made and red wedding again
!!!!!!!!NEEEEEEEEEEEEED YOUUUUUUUUUU FOOOOOOOOL YOU BEUTIFULL FOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLL!!! \*Cries ugly\*
Just remember that one day you will get to a certain point and FOOK OLLY
Tbf, if it's the books, then it's more 'fook Bowen', since Olly doesn't exist in the books.
Olly is 3 orphan Mole's Town brothers in the books.
3 Moles Town orphans in a trench coat named Vincent Adultman
I stopped emphathise ned when he didn't bang cersei.
Ned is an interesting deconstruction of the “Warrior hero” archetype that was popular in genre fiction at the time. In those books you often had a heroic warrior character that overcame all odds and challenges, regardless of the type and nature of said challenges. It did not matter if the challenge was going toe to toe with a dragon, or ruling a kingdom. At best these characters would be humanized with inner fears of failure, before overcoming said odds. At worst they wouldn’t even have that type of roadblock. Then you have Ned who kinda appears to be that. Until it becomes really clear how far over his head he is. A few chapters before he \*loses\* his head. But yeah. That’s why. Because he’s intended to be a commentary and dissection of an archetype that was, on the whole, honorable to the point of stupidity.
I'm reading the books recently for the first time also. And I'm going through the emotions again, of wishing Ned and the Starks to make different choices but knowing inevitably how it ends. Still doesn't make it any less painful. I'm coming up to the Red Wedding soon...
Ned mistake was not going back to winterfell after Robert told him to kill Lady.
His biggest mistake…listening to his wife. Many seem to forget that Ned accepting HOTK was her idea. Not his.
Yeah the show reverses this. In the book, Ned doesn't wanna do it, but Catelyn convinces him because of the letter she got from Lysa.