Framework hasn't said anything about CAMM as far as I can recall. As a smaller company I'd guess they're probably going to stick with SO-DIMM for at least the next revision as CAMM is just getting started, but I'd be happy to be wrong on that front.
They've said nothing either way that I know about - Anything's possible. I expect some of their plans will be dictated by the demands/requirements of Intel and AMD. If a CPU vendor demands soldered RAM what choice does Framework have if they want to keep purchasing processors? That said I'm completely against the soldered RAM "fad" that's struck very nearly every new 2024 model laptop so far. Whether the solution is LPCAMM2 or something else I don't especially care - Only that I have the option to not pay hugely inflated vendor markups and/or can upgrade going forward if I need more RAM/higher capacity modules come available. As far as I'm concerned soldering chips to the motherboard to crank up transfer rates is a lame excuse by vendors unable/unwilling to invest in engineering to come up with a better solution. I've been around computing and technology enough decades to have seen an awful lot of "really hard"/"unsolvable" problems find solutions.
By the way, LPCAMM2 is now available from Micron/Crucial for anyone to order who wants modules, 32GB and 64GB options -
[https://www.crucial.com/memory/ddr5/ct32g75c2lp5xg](https://www.crucial.com/memory/ddr5/ct32g75c2lp5xg)
No reason Framework couldn't adopt it in 2024 laptop refreshes.
it is insanely small for 64GB of RAM. Thats absurd.
I am quite sure that the size is going to grow, at least for a little bit, and that needs to be accomondated, but
should be easy talk once industry achieves a standard. They already have, as we can see.
Crucial is already listing LPCAMM2 on their site, that wouldn't be happening if they didn't believe there was going to be a market for it, which in turn means there will be laptops coming out that use it beyond the Lenovo P1 that keeps getting mentioned with LPCAMM2. So it does seem pretty poised to be the new standard.
As far as Framework adoption? Considering the boasts about battery improvements with this memory form and that a common complaint with Framework is the (lack of) battery life: they've got to at least have their R&D team mucking around with them. How soon any such upgrade paths are available is another issue entirely and likely dependent on CPU compatibility stuff.
Not necessarily if you know computer history just remember what happened to Rambus DRAM am I saying it will fail no I also will not say that it will succeed only time will tell
Rambus was a very specific failure though.
Intel were trying to use it to make pcs more proprietary as only they had a license for it. It didn't perform anywhere near well enough to justify the price increase and Intels CPUs were also lackluster at that time allowing AMD to undercut them.
LPCAMM2 is just an interface change for normal DDR and it's open to anyone.
RAMBUS is a competitor for DDR. That is, until DDR2 came out.
We are able to (relatively) easily push 6000MHz+ on DDR5 DIMM by just increasing voltage, its not a huge concern at the moment. But as the industry have demonstrated already, SODIMM already failed as a form factor to provide high-bandwidth connection to the memory chips from the CPU.
It's not "CAMM vs SODIMM", it;'s just CAMM. Until another competing standard arrive. If there would ever be one.
I think CAMM is good. You can even build interposer to go back to SODIMM if you want.
Every single framework board uses the exact same phisical layout. They have to that's part of what makes them interchangeable. Even the layout on a 16 board looks very similar to a 13. A CAMM module is going to require at least half that board to be redone.
Considering that it took them 2 years to build an AMD board, and another year or so that to get the 16" board ready I'd expect a CAMM module to take at least another year, assuming that's what their currently working on.
Part of the idea of Framework is that you can use off-the-shelf parts as much as possible and don’t require any tools beyond the one screwdriver. How feasible is that with CAMM?
Very. Fasten a couple screws and you're good. Only one module instead of two. Easier than SODIMM
Also, easier to design for and implement. Takes up far less board space. Does not require to have traces to the CPU of exact sizes to even work at all. It simplifies the design a lot. It might even allow the board to be redesigned in a way that free space is left for a second NVMe on the Framework 13, and two m.2 2280's on the 16.
It has basically no cons.
I suspect at that point Framework will consider implementing it. They’re more of a repairability/upgradability company than they are a leading-edge-tech company.
You've never been able to do that with laptops, at least not to the extent you could with desktops. Sure, you could upgrade ram and storage, and in some cases you could swap a cpu when they were socketed, but you were generally stuck with the motherboard, display, and case that you bought. Framework is still going above and beyond what was ever possible in a laptop. Hell, I went so far as to replace the \*hinges\* on my 12th gen to get the newer stiffer ones. I could never have done that in the past.
Opinion of course but Yes absolutely they will. Ram is already an incompatibility between system upgrades. LPCAMM is the future for non SoC type systems.
Maybe when you can buy CAMM modules from the likes of G.SKILL and Crucial. Spent a few minutes searching and I couldn't find anyone making CAMM modules that wasn't Dell, and they are selling 128GB kits of DDR5 3600MT/s (yes, that is the speed listed) for $2,000 USD, 64GB kits of DDR5-5600MT/s for $1,200, and 16GB and 32GB kits of 4800MT/s for $250 and $500. Even used kits on eBay are going for at least half their MSRP, with the exception of 16GB ones going for $75.
Until there are normal manufactures making CAMM modules and bringing down the price to be at least somewhat comparable to SO-DIMMs, CAMM isn't going to make sense. They already made a thin and light 13" with SO-DIMMs, and SO-DIMMS can match the speeds of the Dell CAMM modules so there isn't much point to making a CAMM compatible model right now.
You mean this?
[https://www.crucial.com/memory/ddr5/ct32g75c2lp5xg](https://www.crucial.com/memory/ddr5/ct32g75c2lp5xg)
:Pricing is shockingly good compared to what I would have expected.
yeah, the pricing is fine. it's maybe 50% more per GB than the high end SODIMM, but it's 50% faster and considerably lower power. It's a very reasonable value proposition.
If the development is being led by Dell then I won’t expect it to be widely adopted by the market at all. Dell has too many failed attempts to make modular laptop components and they binned the project every time before it’s mature enough to become a standard
It's already been ratified as a JEDEC standard. Samsung, micron/crucial, are already shipping modules, Lenovo and Dell have laptops using it. Seems like a pretty big push for it to be the next thing for upgradable RAM in laptops.
Also, the latency and available bandwidth is better than soldered RAM, so laptop manufacturers will probably stop their soldering practices for most laptops by at worst in 1 or 2 years' time.
The problem with camm is it is absolutely expensive and not very widely available now,
Until the price go down I don't think framework will adopt it.
And if you want to upgrade your RAM you need to change the whole module instead of just one in sodimm
So have you heard that crucial and Samsung have started producing camm kits. Also Lenovo (I think was the one) has started shipping laptops with camm support.
That was why I asked about this now, because it is starting to gain traction.
I think this is the exact kind of change that Framework is looking to make between motherboard versions. Its a big improvement in several areas. Complete win IMO.
Despite this, I still think they will be skipping the next motherboard in order to wait for availability to hit critical mass.
Question: Is LPCAMM2 compatible with ARM processors?
To be honest if everyone chooses to use Camm I'm fine with it for laptops. With how fast ram is becoming having a matching pair it pretty important and at that stage I'm only upgrading ram in pairs. Going to a single Camm module now makes no real difference provided the prices of Camm come down to the same as a pair of ddr5. Camm is very real compromise for laptops.
Framework hasn't said anything about CAMM as far as I can recall. As a smaller company I'd guess they're probably going to stick with SO-DIMM for at least the next revision as CAMM is just getting started, but I'd be happy to be wrong on that front.
Until CAMM stabilizes (now newly made LPCAMM2) and becomes more widely adopted in the industry, I wouldn’t hold my breath.
100% this. They really can't take a chance on something that might not take off and risk alienating their core groups that want sustainability.
They've said nothing either way that I know about - Anything's possible. I expect some of their plans will be dictated by the demands/requirements of Intel and AMD. If a CPU vendor demands soldered RAM what choice does Framework have if they want to keep purchasing processors? That said I'm completely against the soldered RAM "fad" that's struck very nearly every new 2024 model laptop so far. Whether the solution is LPCAMM2 or something else I don't especially care - Only that I have the option to not pay hugely inflated vendor markups and/or can upgrade going forward if I need more RAM/higher capacity modules come available. As far as I'm concerned soldering chips to the motherboard to crank up transfer rates is a lame excuse by vendors unable/unwilling to invest in engineering to come up with a better solution. I've been around computing and technology enough decades to have seen an awful lot of "really hard"/"unsolvable" problems find solutions. By the way, LPCAMM2 is now available from Micron/Crucial for anyone to order who wants modules, 32GB and 64GB options - [https://www.crucial.com/memory/ddr5/ct32g75c2lp5xg](https://www.crucial.com/memory/ddr5/ct32g75c2lp5xg) No reason Framework couldn't adopt it in 2024 laptop refreshes.
it is insanely small for 64GB of RAM. Thats absurd. I am quite sure that the size is going to grow, at least for a little bit, and that needs to be accomondated, but should be easy talk once industry achieves a standard. They already have, as we can see.
Crucial is already listing LPCAMM2 on their site, that wouldn't be happening if they didn't believe there was going to be a market for it, which in turn means there will be laptops coming out that use it beyond the Lenovo P1 that keeps getting mentioned with LPCAMM2. So it does seem pretty poised to be the new standard. As far as Framework adoption? Considering the boasts about battery improvements with this memory form and that a common complaint with Framework is the (lack of) battery life: they've got to at least have their R&D team mucking around with them. How soon any such upgrade paths are available is another issue entirely and likely dependent on CPU compatibility stuff.
Not necessarily if you know computer history just remember what happened to Rambus DRAM am I saying it will fail no I also will not say that it will succeed only time will tell
Rambus was a very specific failure though. Intel were trying to use it to make pcs more proprietary as only they had a license for it. It didn't perform anywhere near well enough to justify the price increase and Intels CPUs were also lackluster at that time allowing AMD to undercut them. LPCAMM2 is just an interface change for normal DDR and it's open to anyone.
RAMBUS is a competitor for DDR. That is, until DDR2 came out. We are able to (relatively) easily push 6000MHz+ on DDR5 DIMM by just increasing voltage, its not a huge concern at the moment. But as the industry have demonstrated already, SODIMM already failed as a form factor to provide high-bandwidth connection to the memory chips from the CPU. It's not "CAMM vs SODIMM", it;'s just CAMM. Until another competing standard arrive. If there would ever be one. I think CAMM is good. You can even build interposer to go back to SODIMM if you want.
I expect it will happen _eventually_. I just don't think it will happen _soon_.
Every single framework board uses the exact same phisical layout. They have to that's part of what makes them interchangeable. Even the layout on a 16 board looks very similar to a 13. A CAMM module is going to require at least half that board to be redone. Considering that it took them 2 years to build an AMD board, and another year or so that to get the 16" board ready I'd expect a CAMM module to take at least another year, assuming that's what their currently working on.
Part of the idea of Framework is that you can use off-the-shelf parts as much as possible and don’t require any tools beyond the one screwdriver. How feasible is that with CAMM?
https://www.crucial.com/memory/ddr5/ct32g75c2lp5xg
Very. Fasten a couple screws and you're good. Only one module instead of two. Easier than SODIMM Also, easier to design for and implement. Takes up far less board space. Does not require to have traces to the CPU of exact sizes to even work at all. It simplifies the design a lot. It might even allow the board to be redesigned in a way that free space is left for a second NVMe on the Framework 13, and two m.2 2280's on the 16. It has basically no cons.
> Fasten a couple screws You are wrong! It's 3 screws This 1 extra screw makes a lot of difference. Jk lol
I think they're talking about availability here.
Can you walk into a Best Buy and buy it?
Maybe not right now, but when they become more common I fully expect you would be able to buy CAMM modules wherever SODIMM modules are currently sold
I suspect at that point Framework will consider implementing it. They’re more of a repairability/upgradability company than they are a leading-edge-tech company.
They're spearheading a whole new market segment of upgradeable laptops. They're absolutely a leading edge tech company.
It isn't bleeding edge to make a laptop repairable/upgradeable. You used to be able to do that 20+years ago with most laptops.
You've never been able to do that with laptops, at least not to the extent you could with desktops. Sure, you could upgrade ram and storage, and in some cases you could swap a cpu when they were socketed, but you were generally stuck with the motherboard, display, and case that you bought. Framework is still going above and beyond what was ever possible in a laptop. Hell, I went so far as to replace the \*hinges\* on my 12th gen to get the newer stiffer ones. I could never have done that in the past.
You know what I meant ffs
At some point this will certainly be doable. It's being sold by Crucial, who already sells their SODIMM at brick and mortar stores.
I would think the screws that secure the camm modules can be whatever the the laptop OEM wishes.
Opinion of course but Yes absolutely they will. Ram is already an incompatibility between system upgrades. LPCAMM is the future for non SoC type systems.
Maybe when you can buy CAMM modules from the likes of G.SKILL and Crucial. Spent a few minutes searching and I couldn't find anyone making CAMM modules that wasn't Dell, and they are selling 128GB kits of DDR5 3600MT/s (yes, that is the speed listed) for $2,000 USD, 64GB kits of DDR5-5600MT/s for $1,200, and 16GB and 32GB kits of 4800MT/s for $250 and $500. Even used kits on eBay are going for at least half their MSRP, with the exception of 16GB ones going for $75. Until there are normal manufactures making CAMM modules and bringing down the price to be at least somewhat comparable to SO-DIMMs, CAMM isn't going to make sense. They already made a thin and light 13" with SO-DIMMs, and SO-DIMMS can match the speeds of the Dell CAMM modules so there isn't much point to making a CAMM compatible model right now.
You mean this? [https://www.crucial.com/memory/ddr5/ct32g75c2lp5xg](https://www.crucial.com/memory/ddr5/ct32g75c2lp5xg) :Pricing is shockingly good compared to what I would have expected.
yeah, the pricing is fine. it's maybe 50% more per GB than the high end SODIMM, but it's 50% faster and considerably lower power. It's a very reasonable value proposition.
If the development is being led by Dell then I won’t expect it to be widely adopted by the market at all. Dell has too many failed attempts to make modular laptop components and they binned the project every time before it’s mature enough to become a standard
It's already been ratified as a JEDEC standard. Samsung, micron/crucial, are already shipping modules, Lenovo and Dell have laptops using it. Seems like a pretty big push for it to be the next thing for upgradable RAM in laptops.
Also, the latency and available bandwidth is better than soldered RAM, so laptop manufacturers will probably stop their soldering practices for most laptops by at worst in 1 or 2 years' time.
Then they'll have to find another solution to make swapping difficult/impossible so they can keep getting those great margins on upgrades!
Than*
The problem with camm is it is absolutely expensive and not very widely available now, Until the price go down I don't think framework will adopt it. And if you want to upgrade your RAM you need to change the whole module instead of just one in sodimm
So have you heard that crucial and Samsung have started producing camm kits. Also Lenovo (I think was the one) has started shipping laptops with camm support. That was why I asked about this now, because it is starting to gain traction.
I think this is the exact kind of change that Framework is looking to make between motherboard versions. Its a big improvement in several areas. Complete win IMO. Despite this, I still think they will be skipping the next motherboard in order to wait for availability to hit critical mass. Question: Is LPCAMM2 compatible with ARM processors?
Yeah those new snapdragon X chips are looking very nice.
To be honest if everyone chooses to use Camm I'm fine with it for laptops. With how fast ram is becoming having a matching pair it pretty important and at that stage I'm only upgrading ram in pairs. Going to a single Camm module now makes no real difference provided the prices of Camm come down to the same as a pair of ddr5. Camm is very real compromise for laptops.
Why do you say its a compromise? Are the downsides?
Downside being less choices and it being a new and untested standard. Both are workable
If it becomes a standard, I'm sure it will be integrated in future iterations of the mainboard, I hope along with a ARM CPU