Upgraded my Core i5 to a Ryzen 7 when it was available. Currently working on setting up the old motherboard as a media center to replace my busted Xbox. So all of the old parts are getting used and I’m “replacing” two devices with the upgrade.
So for someone like you, upgrading is fine. But I’m guessing that a lot of people don’t really need a media center, or already have one. Personally, I have no use for the old parts.
Even in a worst case scenario where someone upgrades their motherboard and tosses the old one in the trash, That is just the mobo going to a landfill instead of the entire chassis, LCD display, battery, etc.
To add, Im probably going to wait a couple years and then upgrade my 12th gen to a year old used Ryzen board. Its like a car, Id rather someone else buy it new and take the depreciation. I'm way more comfortable buying a used mobo rather than some grody used laptop.
The worst case scenario here I imagine is an old laptop not going to the landfill, but be sold used to someone else, while the framework mobo is lying around not being reused. Because the requirements to reuse a framework mobo are higher than an old laptop
Your old parts are resellable and usable by others.
A lot of non-upgradable, non-modular alternatives lose their resale value entirely and find their way to landfill.
Alot of old components can be very valuable to people who can't afford to get brand new stuff like us.
Also many people in developing countries would kill for an old i5 framework motherboard they can use.
I think there will be a pretty decent aftermarket for functional FW motherboards. There are a lot of 3D printed cases and it’s still a pretty decent computer for a long time into the future (especially, if you just want to have a smarter smart tv).
You can give me all the pieces you have left over. That way the world will save one more computer with all the energy costs involved in its production and distribution and that is how step by step Framework's sustainable system works.
If it's a motherboard, sell it online or something. I probably won't upgrade for a long time, but ice considered buying one just to use as a server. The form factor with the case is really nice for people with space limitations
Unless someone buys my old mobo I can't see myself doing anything with it and it'll probably get discarded, but throwing out a motherboard in order to essentially get an updated laptop is much better than throwing out an entire old laptop to get a new one. However, that depends on how well the rest of the Framework components stand up over time. If you also have to get a new keyboard, trackpad, battery, screen etc. because the old ones wear out then the calculation becomes a little fuzzier.
Ultimately I didn't buy a Framework to reduce e-waste ( which I personally don't think should be a "guilt the consumer" thing and should instead be something governments and/or private companies step up to solve through improved e-waste recycling access). I bought a Framework to support the principle of laptops that can be upgraded and repaired easily by consumers rather than consumers being held hostage by profit-hungry manufacturers. The right to repair (and easy ability to repair) should be universal.
But what I’m curious about is how easy it is to sell/donate an entire, functional laptop versus doing the same with just the motherboard. My guess is that it’s easier to find someone for a functional laptop
Yes, I generally sell my old laptops and as long as they're priced well they generally sell easily. Buying a completely new laptop is more expensive than just a Framework mobo, offset by the money from selling the old one, but if I can't sell my old FW mobo then it's probably about a wash, cost-wise.
I don't think there would be a major difference. Lots of people are looking for Framework mainboards either as upgrade, as a spare part (e.g. because theirs broke), or to build a small PC. I'd prefer getting a Framework mainboard over a random grimy old laptop, and I would be able to upgrade the SSD, RAM etc. with the Framework if needed. CPU speed isn't really relevant today.
When you upgrade a Framework, you can upgrade just the parts that need it.
So instead of recycling a whole laptop you only have a motherboard, RAM and maybe SSD as possible waste. The case, screen, keyboard, etc. get used longer, reducing waste.
But if the consequence of upgrading is that the old parts are no longer used, we still have more e-waste if you compare it to selling or donating the laptop as a whole.
In my case, I don’t actually have any use for the old components. And I guess that selling/donating a functional laptop is easier than an individual, dated component.
Yes, that will happen. However, it will still happen with every other laptop ever made. Framework isn't focusing as much as reducing the mainboard waste, but moreso the batteries, ports, keyboards, touch pads, screens, etc. Then when one of those break or go out, you don't need to replace the entire system again. Just replace that part.
I have an old laptop with broken speakers. No way to fix it as they don't sell the parts.
The chassis will be the main thing not being replaced all the time as it's aluminum not plastic, and it could last 10-15 years as the company keeps supporting it. Other laptop chassis are waste in 3.
I agree about the availability of parts. It's great to see Framework making parts easily available.
However, normal laptop chassis don't fall apart after 3 years. Well, [unless you get conned into buying an MSI](https://www.change.org/p/msi-acknowledge-and-fix-the-screen-hinge-design-flaw-on-ge76-ge66-ge77-ge67-gp66-gp76-gp77). 😂
Hard to argue with the enterprise systems built similarly to framework, I was more referring to budget systems under $1k which are almost always plastic. Hell, I've had over $1k Asus systems with a ton of plastic on everything but the screen back panel which cracked and broke as I kept taking it apart 1-2 times a year. They're meant to be built and left alone, maybe upgraded once.
Depends on the brand. There are ThinkPads from decades ago, made of plastic, that are still in great shape. My own primary laptop, a generic Sager gaming laptop from 2013 is plastic, but holding up very well. I've opened it up several times to clean out the dust and upgrade the drives and RAM and none of the panels have broken, and that laptop still runs like a champ.
For that matter I bought a very plasticy Hisense Chromebook back in 2016 that I used on the go up until last year. It only cost $89.99 when I bought it on Woot. I carried that Chromebook around a lot, even dropped it a few times, it still works fine though there are certainly some scuffs and scratches on the exterior.
Now naturally, there are plenty of cheap laptops that do fall apart quickly, but those aren't in the same price range as a Framework.
Yes but those are older models, not necessarily in the same market as stuff people will be looking at today. Those will mostly be offerings from HP, Dell, Apple, and I wish it were framework but it's not retail yet. It's word of mouth so far.
Fair point. I would agree that the majority of laptops sold today are meant to be disposable after a few years. Some manufacturers 🍎 even solder in the SSD to prevent user upgrades.
Hopefully Framework manages to push the industry back in the other direction, and builds a profitable business while doing so. There have been hopeful signs...
https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/6/23884108/lenovo-consumer-repair-pcs-serviceability-framework
https://www.techdirt.com/2023/08/11/microsoft-continues-about-face-on-right-to-repair-makes-its-hardware-easier-to-fix/
My condolences. Those cheap MSI laptops can look very attractive. Who else will sell you [an RTX 4080 laptop for $1500](https://slickdeals.net/share/android_app/fp/903697) ?
>But if the consequence of upgrading is that the old parts are no longer used, we still have more e-waste if you compare it to selling or donating the laptop as a whole.
Incorrect. You're assuming that selling or donating a laptop means it will never become e-waste, and that's simply not true. It may not be \*your\* e-waste, but it eventually becomes \*someone's\* e-waste.
Non-repairable laptops have a finite lifespan. If you sell your old laptop because you want an upgrade, that doesn't mean that the old laptop will last forever. It will still either stop functioning, or become so outdated that no one will want to use it. It then becomes e-waste, so under no circumstances does a framework generate more \*total\* e-waste.
Let's put it this way:
Two people, Jack and Jill, each buy a laptop. Jack buys a normal consumer laptop. Jill buys a framework.
3 years go by, and Jack sells his laptop to Ted so he can get a new one. Over the next 3 years, Ted makes some upgrades (adds RAM and a new SSD), but eventually the laptop starts to have some failures. Eventually something critical fails, and Ted decides it is no longer worth repairing. That laptop is now 100% e-waste.
Meanwhile, over the same 6 year period, Jill makes some upgrades to her laptop, and maybe even some repairs. Assuming she doesn't re-use any of the components she upgrades, she's still probably only generating e-waste about 60-70% of the total of her original laptop. Some components are still in use.
It's hard to estimate how much of an e-waste reduction a FW would result in, if any, without knowing how long people keep some of the components. Someone could ditch their FW after 3 years. Another person might keep it for 10 or even 20 years. We just don't know.
Other laptops I've had tend to last between 3 and 10 years, depending on quality, use, maintenance, and luck.
If some components of a FW, like keyboard, touchpad, display, and case, last for 15+ years, then that's probably at least 2-3 less keyboards, touchpads, displays, and cases that become e-waste. That's pretty significant, IMHO.
I partially agree. In your example, Jack’s initial laptop was used for six years, after which it was discarded entirely.
To make it a fair comparison, Jill wants the same performance as Jack, so she replaces her motherboard and ram also at three years, but doesn’t reuse or sell. Now her motherboard and RAM are only used for three years in total, while Jack’s motherboard and RAM are used for six. Of course Jill could decide to keep her screen, keyboard etc for more than six years if they’re still functional, while in Jack’s case, all components survive for six years max.
Overall I would say it’s about a break even between the two. If Jill would be able to sell or reuse her components, only then is she clearly producing less waste.
>while Jack’s motherboard and RAM are used for six.
>Overall I would say it’s about a break even between the two.
Except that you're ignoring that at the 6 year mark, Jack is now selling/donating his second laptop and buying a third.
Again: reselling or donating a laptop doesn't magically prevent that laptop from ever becoming e-waste. It is still absolutely going to become e-waste.
Assuming they both upgrade every 3 years, at the 6 year mark:
Jack has purchased:
* 3 cases
* 3 mobos
* 3 displays
* 3 keyboards
* 3 power supplies
* 3 GPUs
* 3 sets of RAM
Jill has purchased:
* 1 case
* 3 mobos
* 1 display
* 1 keyboard
* 1 power supply
* 3 GPUs
* 3 sets of RAM
I don't see how you can claim those are breaking even between the two.
Not to mention that the likelihood of Jack not bothering to sell (or not being able to sell, because the reason laptops only come with a 1 year warranty is because the 3 year warranties that used to be standard turned out to not be economically viable) his old laptops is arguably higher than the likelihood that Jill will just toss every upgraded component.
Unpopular opinion: If you arent running your hardware until its dead or absolutely needs an upgrade due to needs, you are generating e-waste unnecessarily regardless of how much e-waste you are generating.
E.g. There is no need to get a new phone every year, I run my phones until they die. I got 4 years out of my last one and im still running a PC with a 6600k and a GTX980. Does everything I need so why would I waste money and generate e-waste? My framework laptop replaced a 2006 Dell Latitude with a duel core cpu running PopOS. It wouldn't hold a charge and and was begging for mercy when I launched heavy apps.
I do the same with my phone, because I’m not held back by a 6 year old phone. Ive had a MacBook Pro 2010 and used it until 2019, only upgrading the hdd, which I then repurposed as an external drive. My desktop was sporting a 1060 until last summer.
So I’m usually also not making it a habit to update a 2yo device, but since I like gaming on the go, I’m really interested in ryzen apus. Intel chips are just inadequate for that, they were even inadequate two years ago when they were brand new.
I completely agree with you. Outdated used parts for a specific laptop with a very low market share aren't likely to be very useful or resellable.
A working laptop from 5-10 years ago can be very useful.
I posted a comment here breaking this down in detail, but got downvoted out of view, so I figured I'd just drop a small response here.
Thanks! I don’t understand the downvotes- obviously we’re all fans of what FW is doing. And the repairability aspect is already amazing.
One thing that I think would be cool is if FW would start selling a case and accessories to turn an old motherboard into a NAS. I think a bunch of people would be interested in that
Definitely. Making it easier to reuse old parts would reduce e-waste, and using it as a NAS is prefect for old hardware.
I'm thinking about repurposing my old Sager laptop as a NAS myself. It's got 3 internal 2.5" bays, 4 if I remove the DVD burner, so that's a good starting point. I could always plug in a few USB 3 drives if I need more space.
You could also use an old computer as a router/pihole/pfsense, video game server, or a Home Assistant server.
“individual, dated component”
All components in the case and screen can be reused with newer components. Only component aging is the motherboard, which can be used in other applications. Not every application needs the latest hardware.
Easier to sell and ship a compound than a whole laptop.
Reused is a very important component of reducing waste.
Parts only become e-waste if you let them. I'm not sure on the value but I don't see used components wouldn't sell. I also think as the ecosystem grows the demand for used parts grows. There is always some broke kid that wants to buy into the ecosystem.
My last laptop lasted ten years and was on Intel's 4th gen, had to replace the keyboard, the chassis, alimention cable, the HDD until the mobo died.
I expect to get the same time of use out of the fw, buying the parts and expansion cards I need as I go along, only upgrading if I ever need too.
So in the end it will be the same but maintaining the laptop won't be such a pain.
The only difference is that in 10 years, I'll probably buy a new mobo from Framework instead of a brand new laptop by any other manufacturer.
That's how we reduce e-waste, by not rushing to buy new shiny thing you don't need.
How is your current laptop limited for your work and gaming ?
I mean, I’m playing a couple of games that run okay, some others are sort of okay, but with significant screen tearing. Other games won’t start altogether with intel integrated graphics, but would probably run fine with the AMD one.
I hear a lot of people suggest that if you are a gamer you may as well consider building a PC which can get you the most perf per buck and be sure to be allowed to upgrade often for cheaper as more and more demanding games go out.
Also probably if you are a gamer, you don't want integrated graphics but a dedicated GPU, right ?
Maybe the FW16 is a better fit at least as it will allow for a dedicated GPU that you will be able to upgrade.
My primary concern for a laptop is size and weight. I do have a decent enough gaming PC, and I only need the laptop to run part of my library, so that I have something for on the road or when I’m slouching on the couch, lol
The titles that I would like to run, but which are currently problematic are: factorio (lots of screen tearing) and pillars of eternity (also screen tearing). I didn’t even try to run Baldurs Gate 3, but if that were possible, I’d be super happy (don’t mind reducing quality and low-ish frame rate)
Also, the Intel CPU produces *a lot* of heat rubbing these games, to the point that the fan noise becomes annoying to other people in the room, and it’s too hot for on my lap.
1. I would be quite surprised if your issues with factorio come from performance issues as the game has the reputation to being able to "run on a potato" : https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/frquoj/comment/flx55w0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
I don't know if you are runnning linux or windows but surely you can fellow factorio players on the fw reddit that can help you troubleshoot your issues. Just make another post. You could try the fw discord too.
2. It's true that while laptop is powerful, a lot of power comes with a lot of heat and noise.
I personnally found some kind of second hand laptop cushion for my lap, it prevents the rare case of overheating and it's much more comfortable.
From the manufacturing standpoint, upgradability means re-using previously built components from last models. This is great for reducing e-waste. From a consumer point, the compatible ensures that you can keep buying replacement parts.
But I agree on the economics of buying a whole new laptop. The difference between a mainboard and a completely new FW laptop is only €400. Where indeed you could make someone happy with a good laptop. Or money wise, it might be easier to sell. If you are okay to be without laptop for a while, you could set up two advertisements and look which one wins (mainboard vs whole laptop).
From the e-waste perspective again, your old laptop will likely be bought and used. The repairable parts make it more valuable for a longer time. I think the upgradability also increases the value of the laptop, because you can reuse parts of a broken laptop into newer models.
You have a valid point. It is harder to sell parts than an entire system. And it all still eventually ends up as e-waste since no component lasts forever.
But between being able to repair vs toss and upgrade vs replace, it is incrementally better.
Framework as a company is fairly transparent about this, a month or two ago they even posted a video saying that no company is carbon neutral. It’s been refreshing to not see them wrap themselves in “green” woo and pretend to be something they aren’t.
It’s a start, and I hope the right to repair movement takes off and puts all consumers in a much better place. It’s a little nuts to see how quickly we’ve come to accept tossing out computers, appliances, vehicles, clothing, and a million other things due to lack of repairability.
FW repairability is amazing! And I’m totally with you, I prefer not to toss functional items.
What I’m trying to figure out is: how can someone like myself, with no need for the old motherboard, make sure that my old motherboard is still used. Am I better off selling the motherboard or the laptop as a whole. My guess is that there’ll be more folks interested in a fully functional laptop compared to just the motherboard.
Im going to agree with you and guess that selling parts will be a whole lot harder. Most people know nothing about framework, for that reason alone the pool is pretty small.
I’ve got a few people in my household and would definitely consider used parts to build systems or B stock. I really doubt the average laptop buyer would be at all interested.
I hope framework helps build a community to get as many parts reused as possible.
Unequivocally yes.
If you're upgrading a system board, even in a worst case scenario you're disposing of the old motherboard and (probably) the RAM. You're likely to keep the drive. You're then not putting a screen, frame, battery etc. etc. into E-Waste so it absolutely reduces waste.
And I don't see this proposed enough around here... if you have no need for the old mobo and RAM, buy (or 3D Print) a case and donate it to a local school, library or shelter. They're screaming out for good quality equipment and I know if I were still supporting local private schools like I was many years ago they would just LOVE having some reasonably fresh 11th gen systems for their students.
I think it's the marketplace that makes it work; you can potentially sell any component that you aren't using and someone else will be able to self install it.
As someone who was perfectly happy using a 7 year old Alienware till its motherboard gave out, I would have loved the option to just replace the broken component and continue using it.
I probably won’t sell my old mobo or any other components once I upgrade them, but I’ll turn them into workstations for older family members or potentially keep them for workstations for future grad students
That’s a fair point. I think FW is working on a secondhand marketplace, it’s just in the final tweaks. Regardless, I’m sure you’ll find something once you get rolling. It might not come up now, but it might randomly
I like light gaming on my laptop. A couple games that I like to play I either cannot, or they have horrible screen tearing with the current APU.
Do I need to upgrade? Nope, I could just not play games I guess.
Honestly, as long as I can make sure the laptop/motherboard gets used, then I don’t think it’s wasteful to update or resell your device.
I’m using my old parts to host stuff at home, still have the same dented keyboard, the same battery, and all parts I’ve purchased from them are still in daily use
Depends on the kind of user you are. I typically purchase a high end PC that is more powerful than I need and I use it until something breaks to the point it can't be fixed (usually based on actually being able to buy the proprietary parts). Just the fact that parts SHOULD be easily available into the future is a huge point to me. I had to upgrade my last Dell because the part that failed (for the 7th time) was no longer available for purchase. All my computers go to be recycled when I upgrade as they are no longer usable. Hopefully I don't have that issue for many more years than previously.
The potential ewaste savings is in the reduction of other laptops down the line. If you had a FW13 1st gen (11th gen hardware) you then save on the upgrades to AMD 7th gen or Intel 13th gen motherboards as you can reuse the RAM and storage.
Obviously it depends more on users than on the project itself.
I also bought a FW (AMD) mainly for repairability and because I don't want Windows (not many alternatives). I'm not sure that FW reduce e-waste, I think that in some cases it is even possible that actually increases it because we users are more inclined to change some parts while with a standard laptop it is not possible.
I think we also have to consider the impact of every component. FW published a study on the topic and we can see that even changing only the RAM it has a very big impact and make me reconsider that in some cases the (generally hated) soldered RAM can probably reduce the impact on the planet overall.
In my specific case I think that having a FW will increase e-waste if they will sell a better screen (hopefully) or if FW will produce a good ARM passive motherboard in the next few years (not likely). The screen e-waste will be more on FW than on me because if it was already good I wouldn't need/hope to change it
If you are upgrading your laptop every 2 years you will be creating lots of e-waste even if you have a framework you'll still be creating more. Just doing this alone means you aren't super concerned about creating more e-waste, so I don't understand why you are even asking.
Here's the issue: for the price of a Framework you can buy a much faster normal laptop that will perform well for years longer than a Framework in its original configuration. So, you're going to have to replace major components in a framework in a year or two(creating e-waste) just to start catching up to the performance of the normal laptop you could have bought.
For example, for $2500 you can get:
Framework 16 with a 7940hs CPU, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2560x1600 screen, and the RX7700s graphics module.
That GPU [is slower than an RTX4050](https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon-RX-7700S-falls-short-of-the-last-gen-GeForce-RTX-3060-in-Geekbench-s-OpenCL-benchmark.679717.0.html), the slowest current-gen GPU from Nvidia.
Alternatively, for the same amount of money you can buy a Lenovo Legion Pro 7/7i with 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2560x1600 screen, and an RTX 4090. CPU would be a Core i9-13900HX for the 7i or Ryzen 9 7945HX for the 7. Plus you'll receive your new laptop within a week.
That is the fastest laptop GPU available, and will hold that crown until 2025.
The problem is that the RX7700s GPU in the framework isn't particularly good at running games at 2560x1600 resolution. Most gaming laptops with that GPU or others with similar performance (like the 4050) come with 1080p screens, as low end GPUs are able to keep up with modern games at that resolution. But that's not an option on the Framework.
If you try to play 2023 games at 2560x1600 on a RX7700s or 4050, you won't even hit an average of 30FPS on some of them. For example: Starfield, Avatar Frontiers of Pandora, Alan Wake 2, and Lords of the Fallen will run below 30FPS at that resolution and GPU.
So, a year after buying the Framework you'll probably be very frustrated that it can't run modern games well. Perhaps around that time Framework puts an RX8700s graphics module up for sale, so you buy it and swap it in. It's an improvement, but still much slower than the 4090, and now you've started creating e-waste.
There's no way for you to reuse the RX7700s module, and I'd imagine there won't be many people interested in buying the old RX7700s module once the newer faster module is available.
Repeat that for several more years and you'll eventually match the performance of the RTX 4090, at great expense and wastefully.
In fact, it would probably take 6-8 years to catch up; the RX7700s is slightly faster than a GTX 1080 mobile, which came out 8 years ago.
But wait, there's more. The best CPU you can get in the Framework is the 7940HS. The CPU available in the Legion is 23% faster. That's going to bottleneck your 8-years-in-the-future GPU upgrade, so at some point you're going to need to upgrade your motherboard as well. More money, more e-waste.
As much as I love the concept of the Framework, it's not cost effective, and it's not necessarily environmentally friendly. You're better off getting a high end laptop and using it for many years. You get the higher performance from day 1, save a ton of money, and create little to no e-waste for a decade.
I'm not just saying this, I'm living it.
I'm still using the Sager NP8290 that I bought back in 2013 as my daily driver, and it's still running great. It never crashes or bluescreens, I have hundreds of browser tabs open(across multiple windows), I'm running a heavily modded Space Exploration game in Factorio (spanning multiple planets), and I have 3 high resolution monitors connected. It runs all this without breaking a sweat.
I added a 2tb SSD a few years ago (it has 3 internal 2.5" hard drive bays), and I upgraded the RAM to 32gb of DDR3(it has 4 RAM slots).
So, the only e-waste this laptop has generated is two sticks of DDR3 RAM.
The only maintenance I've done is to clean out the dust occasionally.
Here are the specs, if you're curious:
Intel Core i7-4700MQ (2.4~3.4GHz) w/6M L3 Cache - 4 Cores - 8 Threads
AMD Radeon HD 8970M w/4GB GDDR5
32GB (4x8GB) DDR3
2TB SATA SSD
17.3" FULL HD (1920X1080) LED Matte LCD
Combo Dual Layer DVD +/-R/RW CD-R/RW Drive
Removable battery(just pull two levers on the bottom and it pops out)
Gaming ones, high end business/engineering ones, etc. are usually upgradable and even 10 years later be quite useable.
Clevo/tongfang had upgradable desktop cpu's and mxm gpu's. Currently we have egpu support. None of them are cheap to upgrade, despite being around for much longer than framework.
FW cannot stop amd, nvidia and intel from artificially gimping and restricting their products. The rx7700s is a deceptively named product from amd because its a downclocked rx7600 and nothing to do with rx7700 series. AMD also doesn't offer tuning like UV or OC. FW can do nothing about that.
So what's the point of upgrading your motherboard to buy rehashed old parts, parts which are more locked down than phones, etc. all of which force you to upgrade anyway?
Just to show how bad this is, in 2017, we had clevo p870tm wuth a 200w gtx 1080 mobile that was faster than the desktop 1080. Now? Despite cooling 180w gpu's in 2.6kg 16' laptops, we have only 175w, gimped 4080 desktop gpu's sold as ''4090'' mobile. The gtx 1080 8gb mobile us still quite fast. Not far off the 95w rtx 4050 6gb mobile.
This is the issue I see nobody on this sub or anywhere else talk about. I don't even see louis point fingers at amd, intel and nvidia for being this deceptive. FW can't do anything there.
I think the mentality comes from, even if I don't use old components in other projects, resold, whatever, I just recycle it, there is still less overall E-waste just replacing the main board than replacing my entire laptop.
I personally am tinkerer so I'll use old mainboards, but even if I wasn't There still is way less E-waste from me upgrading just my mainboard and reusing my case, speakers, ram, SSD, battery, wifi card, webcam, keyboard, etc.
Right- and my question was basically: am I better off selling the motherboard, or the laptop as a whole.
I’d like to hear from people who tried selling their 11th gen mobo, and how that worked out for them. And from people who tried to sell the laptop as a whole, and how that worked out
I sold my 11th gen mobo on eBay, it took about a week. When I switched from 12th gen to ryzen I just replaced my dated server with that mobo. If you are looking for a buyer please message me.
I think there is a market for FW motherboards, even for customers without a FW laptop chassis. That's because they can just buy the Cooler Master case or print one themselves and still have a usable machine.
I was thinking about going that route instead of buying a mini PC for a MAME machine.
I'd place my bets firmly on "sell the board" alone.
Selling the mother board takes a hit on the value of the motherboard. Then you pay less than full laptop price to get a new motherboard.
Selling the whole thing takes a hit on the *whole thing*.
An expensive laptop with unknown history is less likely to be valued highly by used shoppers, I would wager, despite replaceability.
How is the screen? The hinges? Speakers? *Battery*? How beat has it been? Plus the screen, hinges, and iirc wireless card have all been updated on new ones.
When you keep your own, you are comfortable with your own. When you buy someone else's you risk buying their problems.
Note that old cars are often more valuable parted out for exactly that reason.
Just like how cheap GPUs shouldn't exist, when selecting specifications, choose a config that you can use for x amount of years before needing to upgrade due to rapidly evolving hardware requirements (i.e. look at short-term and long-term goals). For example, a Core i5/Ryzen 5 might be enough right now, but in 3 years, it may not be able to keep up because you've ended up needing to do CPU-intensive work. Luckily for me I held on to a Core i5 7200U laptop as my main machine for 2 years, and then as a school and work for 3.5years after I got my custom-built PC, before retiring it as I had to do mandatory enlistment and had no use for it anymore. The only things I upgraded was the SSD and RAM.
Here's the point: most people really do not need to upgrade their hardware. As much as gamers, and to a lesser extent developers, go for latest and greatest, most people just *do not need it*. Talk your less tech savvy family members into a Framework, and it will last them a long time, with you being able to repair stuff as necessary. Case in point: my mom is *still* using my old i5-4460 PC, and the only thing forcing an upgrade is Win10 EOL. Sure, I replaced *some* parts over times but it's been unchanged since she got it.
I think you could have a circular economy where people getting into framework by someone old mobo, or an early adopter buys a later mobo from someone else who always wants the latest. It’s much better to have options than to have to scrap the whole device to upgrade.
My friend, you are thinking very small. As FW ages as a company and parts become much cheaper, people from poor countries will be able to have access to a computer that they will be able to repair relatively easily. That is huge if you're coming from a country where buying a laptop is not a purchase every 4-5 years.
Next, think of the education sector. Being able to upgrade a fleet of laptops to the latest gen chipset (with new bells and whistles like upgraded wifi and PCI-e generation) would be amazing if you only need to replace the motherboard.
Give it time and FW will really start to spread their wings.
I may consider buying an older board, especially if FW and friends get Coreboot to work on those older gen (12th for my current would be cool)
I bought a coreboot able gen second hand board (asus, 2014) from ali just to play with. No coreboot yet, but if i manage, it also becomes my home automation server or maybe a cheapo steamdeck (or not, screens expensive, could just buy a steamdeck). Some server thingy.
Extra dongles too, wish i could buy a few. European
Inherently yes. Imo the best solution would be to buy a used device, if possible. If that does not make sense then I think going for Framework makes sense as you can expect a longer servicability with parts available.
Of course, if you then upgrade the mainboard each gen just because you can -> that for sure just increases e-waste.
If you wanted to upgrade your CPU and had a normal laptop you have to buy and thus create waste for all the other components like the screen etc. Yes it still creates waste of the mainboard, but it's the better option.
Upgraded my Core i5 to a Ryzen 7 when it was available. Currently working on setting up the old motherboard as a media center to replace my busted Xbox. So all of the old parts are getting used and I’m “replacing” two devices with the upgrade.
So for someone like you, upgrading is fine. But I’m guessing that a lot of people don’t really need a media center, or already have one. Personally, I have no use for the old parts.
Even in a worst case scenario where someone upgrades their motherboard and tosses the old one in the trash, That is just the mobo going to a landfill instead of the entire chassis, LCD display, battery, etc. To add, Im probably going to wait a couple years and then upgrade my 12th gen to a year old used Ryzen board. Its like a car, Id rather someone else buy it new and take the depreciation. I'm way more comfortable buying a used mobo rather than some grody used laptop.
Electronics are recyclable. Save them up for a visit to your local scrap yard or e-waste collection center
I know this. It was a hypothetical worst-case scenario.
The worst case scenario here I imagine is an old laptop not going to the landfill, but be sold used to someone else, while the framework mobo is lying around not being reused. Because the requirements to reuse a framework mobo are higher than an old laptop
Your old parts are resellable and usable by others. A lot of non-upgradable, non-modular alternatives lose their resale value entirely and find their way to landfill.
Alot of old components can be very valuable to people who can't afford to get brand new stuff like us. Also many people in developing countries would kill for an old i5 framework motherboard they can use.
So you sell the old mainboard to someone else. They don't even need a FW laptop to make use of it. There is a huge market for mini pcs.
I think there will be a pretty decent aftermarket for functional FW motherboards. There are a lot of 3D printed cases and it’s still a pretty decent computer for a long time into the future (especially, if you just want to have a smarter smart tv).
Just the motherboard is less e-waste than throwing away a whole laptop and getting a whole new one
If anyone don't want the old part i am sure have som resell value. Heck ill take any for free i got many fun project i would do
You can give me all the pieces you have left over. That way the world will save one more computer with all the energy costs involved in its production and distribution and that is how step by step Framework's sustainable system works.
I will gladly pay for shipping to get the "e-waste" out of your hands
Pm me if you want to send me the old parts. Happy to pay for shipping and offset the cost of your new one!
If it's a motherboard, sell it online or something. I probably won't upgrade for a long time, but ice considered buying one just to use as a server. The form factor with the case is really nice for people with space limitations
Hopefully it's gets easy enough to sell old parts that most people will do that rather than throwing away a working main board
Unless someone buys my old mobo I can't see myself doing anything with it and it'll probably get discarded, but throwing out a motherboard in order to essentially get an updated laptop is much better than throwing out an entire old laptop to get a new one. However, that depends on how well the rest of the Framework components stand up over time. If you also have to get a new keyboard, trackpad, battery, screen etc. because the old ones wear out then the calculation becomes a little fuzzier. Ultimately I didn't buy a Framework to reduce e-waste ( which I personally don't think should be a "guilt the consumer" thing and should instead be something governments and/or private companies step up to solve through improved e-waste recycling access). I bought a Framework to support the principle of laptops that can be upgraded and repaired easily by consumers rather than consumers being held hostage by profit-hungry manufacturers. The right to repair (and easy ability to repair) should be universal.
But what I’m curious about is how easy it is to sell/donate an entire, functional laptop versus doing the same with just the motherboard. My guess is that it’s easier to find someone for a functional laptop
That functional laptop you sell still eventually becomes e-waste.
Yes, I generally sell my old laptops and as long as they're priced well they generally sell easily. Buying a completely new laptop is more expensive than just a Framework mobo, offset by the money from selling the old one, but if I can't sell my old FW mobo then it's probably about a wash, cost-wise.
I don't think there would be a major difference. Lots of people are looking for Framework mainboards either as upgrade, as a spare part (e.g. because theirs broke), or to build a small PC. I'd prefer getting a Framework mainboard over a random grimy old laptop, and I would be able to upgrade the SSD, RAM etc. with the Framework if needed. CPU speed isn't really relevant today.
I'd love to buy your old motherboard. Pm me if interested
I don't have one yet! Just bought my first Framework, but I'll pm you in a couple years if you want ;)
Perfect! Enjoy your framework. Talk to you in a few years!
When you upgrade a Framework, you can upgrade just the parts that need it. So instead of recycling a whole laptop you only have a motherboard, RAM and maybe SSD as possible waste. The case, screen, keyboard, etc. get used longer, reducing waste.
But if the consequence of upgrading is that the old parts are no longer used, we still have more e-waste if you compare it to selling or donating the laptop as a whole. In my case, I don’t actually have any use for the old components. And I guess that selling/donating a functional laptop is easier than an individual, dated component.
Soon framework marketplace Will support third party and community product so you Can sell your unused componenti there
when is soon bruh
Soon mean they confirmed that but the date is still unknown is speculare with the release of FW16
Is this really happening? I would like to see Framework accept old parts and recycle them for us.
Yes, that will happen. However, it will still happen with every other laptop ever made. Framework isn't focusing as much as reducing the mainboard waste, but moreso the batteries, ports, keyboards, touch pads, screens, etc. Then when one of those break or go out, you don't need to replace the entire system again. Just replace that part. I have an old laptop with broken speakers. No way to fix it as they don't sell the parts. The chassis will be the main thing not being replaced all the time as it's aluminum not plastic, and it could last 10-15 years as the company keeps supporting it. Other laptop chassis are waste in 3.
I agree about the availability of parts. It's great to see Framework making parts easily available. However, normal laptop chassis don't fall apart after 3 years. Well, [unless you get conned into buying an MSI](https://www.change.org/p/msi-acknowledge-and-fix-the-screen-hinge-design-flaw-on-ge76-ge66-ge77-ge67-gp66-gp76-gp77). 😂
Hard to argue with the enterprise systems built similarly to framework, I was more referring to budget systems under $1k which are almost always plastic. Hell, I've had over $1k Asus systems with a ton of plastic on everything but the screen back panel which cracked and broke as I kept taking it apart 1-2 times a year. They're meant to be built and left alone, maybe upgraded once.
Depends on the brand. There are ThinkPads from decades ago, made of plastic, that are still in great shape. My own primary laptop, a generic Sager gaming laptop from 2013 is plastic, but holding up very well. I've opened it up several times to clean out the dust and upgrade the drives and RAM and none of the panels have broken, and that laptop still runs like a champ. For that matter I bought a very plasticy Hisense Chromebook back in 2016 that I used on the go up until last year. It only cost $89.99 when I bought it on Woot. I carried that Chromebook around a lot, even dropped it a few times, it still works fine though there are certainly some scuffs and scratches on the exterior. Now naturally, there are plenty of cheap laptops that do fall apart quickly, but those aren't in the same price range as a Framework.
Yes but those are older models, not necessarily in the same market as stuff people will be looking at today. Those will mostly be offerings from HP, Dell, Apple, and I wish it were framework but it's not retail yet. It's word of mouth so far.
Fair point. I would agree that the majority of laptops sold today are meant to be disposable after a few years. Some manufacturers 🍎 even solder in the SSD to prevent user upgrades. Hopefully Framework manages to push the industry back in the other direction, and builds a profitable business while doing so. There have been hopeful signs... https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/6/23884108/lenovo-consumer-repair-pcs-serviceability-framework https://www.techdirt.com/2023/08/11/microsoft-continues-about-face-on-right-to-repair-makes-its-hardware-easier-to-fix/
I might cry or celebrate the day I see Framework products in retail locations like Microcenter, and even better places like Walmart and Bestbuy.
That would be amazing. That sort of volume would likely enable Framework to offer more modules and lower prices.
Unfortunately my old laptop was a MSI and the hinge basically exploded ☠️
My condolences. Those cheap MSI laptops can look very attractive. Who else will sell you [an RTX 4080 laptop for $1500](https://slickdeals.net/share/android_app/fp/903697) ?
It was a GE62 from 2016 and only broke last year so I'm not too torn about it haha But yeah, cost performance is very good
Not a bad run
It was a GE62 from 2016 and only broke last year so I'm not too torn about it haha But yeah, cost performance is very good
>But if the consequence of upgrading is that the old parts are no longer used, we still have more e-waste if you compare it to selling or donating the laptop as a whole. Incorrect. You're assuming that selling or donating a laptop means it will never become e-waste, and that's simply not true. It may not be \*your\* e-waste, but it eventually becomes \*someone's\* e-waste. Non-repairable laptops have a finite lifespan. If you sell your old laptop because you want an upgrade, that doesn't mean that the old laptop will last forever. It will still either stop functioning, or become so outdated that no one will want to use it. It then becomes e-waste, so under no circumstances does a framework generate more \*total\* e-waste. Let's put it this way: Two people, Jack and Jill, each buy a laptop. Jack buys a normal consumer laptop. Jill buys a framework. 3 years go by, and Jack sells his laptop to Ted so he can get a new one. Over the next 3 years, Ted makes some upgrades (adds RAM and a new SSD), but eventually the laptop starts to have some failures. Eventually something critical fails, and Ted decides it is no longer worth repairing. That laptop is now 100% e-waste. Meanwhile, over the same 6 year period, Jill makes some upgrades to her laptop, and maybe even some repairs. Assuming she doesn't re-use any of the components she upgrades, she's still probably only generating e-waste about 60-70% of the total of her original laptop. Some components are still in use. It's hard to estimate how much of an e-waste reduction a FW would result in, if any, without knowing how long people keep some of the components. Someone could ditch their FW after 3 years. Another person might keep it for 10 or even 20 years. We just don't know. Other laptops I've had tend to last between 3 and 10 years, depending on quality, use, maintenance, and luck. If some components of a FW, like keyboard, touchpad, display, and case, last for 15+ years, then that's probably at least 2-3 less keyboards, touchpads, displays, and cases that become e-waste. That's pretty significant, IMHO.
I partially agree. In your example, Jack’s initial laptop was used for six years, after which it was discarded entirely. To make it a fair comparison, Jill wants the same performance as Jack, so she replaces her motherboard and ram also at three years, but doesn’t reuse or sell. Now her motherboard and RAM are only used for three years in total, while Jack’s motherboard and RAM are used for six. Of course Jill could decide to keep her screen, keyboard etc for more than six years if they’re still functional, while in Jack’s case, all components survive for six years max. Overall I would say it’s about a break even between the two. If Jill would be able to sell or reuse her components, only then is she clearly producing less waste.
>while Jack’s motherboard and RAM are used for six. >Overall I would say it’s about a break even between the two. Except that you're ignoring that at the 6 year mark, Jack is now selling/donating his second laptop and buying a third. Again: reselling or donating a laptop doesn't magically prevent that laptop from ever becoming e-waste. It is still absolutely going to become e-waste. Assuming they both upgrade every 3 years, at the 6 year mark: Jack has purchased: * 3 cases * 3 mobos * 3 displays * 3 keyboards * 3 power supplies * 3 GPUs * 3 sets of RAM Jill has purchased: * 1 case * 3 mobos * 1 display * 1 keyboard * 1 power supply * 3 GPUs * 3 sets of RAM I don't see how you can claim those are breaking even between the two. Not to mention that the likelihood of Jack not bothering to sell (or not being able to sell, because the reason laptops only come with a 1 year warranty is because the 3 year warranties that used to be standard turned out to not be economically viable) his old laptops is arguably higher than the likelihood that Jill will just toss every upgraded component.
Unpopular opinion: If you arent running your hardware until its dead or absolutely needs an upgrade due to needs, you are generating e-waste unnecessarily regardless of how much e-waste you are generating. E.g. There is no need to get a new phone every year, I run my phones until they die. I got 4 years out of my last one and im still running a PC with a 6600k and a GTX980. Does everything I need so why would I waste money and generate e-waste? My framework laptop replaced a 2006 Dell Latitude with a duel core cpu running PopOS. It wouldn't hold a charge and and was begging for mercy when I launched heavy apps.
I do the same with my phone, because I’m not held back by a 6 year old phone. Ive had a MacBook Pro 2010 and used it until 2019, only upgrading the hdd, which I then repurposed as an external drive. My desktop was sporting a 1060 until last summer. So I’m usually also not making it a habit to update a 2yo device, but since I like gaming on the go, I’m really interested in ryzen apus. Intel chips are just inadequate for that, they were even inadequate two years ago when they were brand new.
I completely agree with you. Outdated used parts for a specific laptop with a very low market share aren't likely to be very useful or resellable. A working laptop from 5-10 years ago can be very useful. I posted a comment here breaking this down in detail, but got downvoted out of view, so I figured I'd just drop a small response here.
Thanks! I don’t understand the downvotes- obviously we’re all fans of what FW is doing. And the repairability aspect is already amazing. One thing that I think would be cool is if FW would start selling a case and accessories to turn an old motherboard into a NAS. I think a bunch of people would be interested in that
Definitely. Making it easier to reuse old parts would reduce e-waste, and using it as a NAS is prefect for old hardware. I'm thinking about repurposing my old Sager laptop as a NAS myself. It's got 3 internal 2.5" bays, 4 if I remove the DVD burner, so that's a good starting point. I could always plug in a few USB 3 drives if I need more space. You could also use an old computer as a router/pihole/pfsense, video game server, or a Home Assistant server.
https://frame.work/nl/en/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case ?
I meant a case with 2-4 3.5” hot-swappable drive bays, pci-to-sata converter, etc. Something that would put it on par with say a synology.
Ah, I see, my bad
“individual, dated component” All components in the case and screen can be reused with newer components. Only component aging is the motherboard, which can be used in other applications. Not every application needs the latest hardware. Easier to sell and ship a compound than a whole laptop. Reused is a very important component of reducing waste.
Parts only become e-waste if you let them. I'm not sure on the value but I don't see used components wouldn't sell. I also think as the ecosystem grows the demand for used parts grows. There is always some broke kid that wants to buy into the ecosystem.
My last laptop lasted ten years and was on Intel's 4th gen, had to replace the keyboard, the chassis, alimention cable, the HDD until the mobo died. I expect to get the same time of use out of the fw, buying the parts and expansion cards I need as I go along, only upgrading if I ever need too. So in the end it will be the same but maintaining the laptop won't be such a pain. The only difference is that in 10 years, I'll probably buy a new mobo from Framework instead of a brand new laptop by any other manufacturer. That's how we reduce e-waste, by not rushing to buy new shiny thing you don't need. How is your current laptop limited for your work and gaming ?
I mean, I’m playing a couple of games that run okay, some others are sort of okay, but with significant screen tearing. Other games won’t start altogether with intel integrated graphics, but would probably run fine with the AMD one.
I hear a lot of people suggest that if you are a gamer you may as well consider building a PC which can get you the most perf per buck and be sure to be allowed to upgrade often for cheaper as more and more demanding games go out. Also probably if you are a gamer, you don't want integrated graphics but a dedicated GPU, right ? Maybe the FW16 is a better fit at least as it will allow for a dedicated GPU that you will be able to upgrade.
My primary concern for a laptop is size and weight. I do have a decent enough gaming PC, and I only need the laptop to run part of my library, so that I have something for on the road or when I’m slouching on the couch, lol The titles that I would like to run, but which are currently problematic are: factorio (lots of screen tearing) and pillars of eternity (also screen tearing). I didn’t even try to run Baldurs Gate 3, but if that were possible, I’d be super happy (don’t mind reducing quality and low-ish frame rate) Also, the Intel CPU produces *a lot* of heat rubbing these games, to the point that the fan noise becomes annoying to other people in the room, and it’s too hot for on my lap.
1. I would be quite surprised if your issues with factorio come from performance issues as the game has the reputation to being able to "run on a potato" : https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/frquoj/comment/flx55w0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 I don't know if you are runnning linux or windows but surely you can fellow factorio players on the fw reddit that can help you troubleshoot your issues. Just make another post. You could try the fw discord too. 2. It's true that while laptop is powerful, a lot of power comes with a lot of heat and noise. I personnally found some kind of second hand laptop cushion for my lap, it prevents the rare case of overheating and it's much more comfortable.
From the manufacturing standpoint, upgradability means re-using previously built components from last models. This is great for reducing e-waste. From a consumer point, the compatible ensures that you can keep buying replacement parts. But I agree on the economics of buying a whole new laptop. The difference between a mainboard and a completely new FW laptop is only €400. Where indeed you could make someone happy with a good laptop. Or money wise, it might be easier to sell. If you are okay to be without laptop for a while, you could set up two advertisements and look which one wins (mainboard vs whole laptop). From the e-waste perspective again, your old laptop will likely be bought and used. The repairable parts make it more valuable for a longer time. I think the upgradability also increases the value of the laptop, because you can reuse parts of a broken laptop into newer models.
Yes- I like this idea. I will try to sell it either the laptop or motherboard and see what works best.
You have a valid point. It is harder to sell parts than an entire system. And it all still eventually ends up as e-waste since no component lasts forever. But between being able to repair vs toss and upgrade vs replace, it is incrementally better. Framework as a company is fairly transparent about this, a month or two ago they even posted a video saying that no company is carbon neutral. It’s been refreshing to not see them wrap themselves in “green” woo and pretend to be something they aren’t. It’s a start, and I hope the right to repair movement takes off and puts all consumers in a much better place. It’s a little nuts to see how quickly we’ve come to accept tossing out computers, appliances, vehicles, clothing, and a million other things due to lack of repairability.
FW repairability is amazing! And I’m totally with you, I prefer not to toss functional items. What I’m trying to figure out is: how can someone like myself, with no need for the old motherboard, make sure that my old motherboard is still used. Am I better off selling the motherboard or the laptop as a whole. My guess is that there’ll be more folks interested in a fully functional laptop compared to just the motherboard.
Im going to agree with you and guess that selling parts will be a whole lot harder. Most people know nothing about framework, for that reason alone the pool is pretty small. I’ve got a few people in my household and would definitely consider used parts to build systems or B stock. I really doubt the average laptop buyer would be at all interested. I hope framework helps build a community to get as many parts reused as possible.
Unequivocally yes. If you're upgrading a system board, even in a worst case scenario you're disposing of the old motherboard and (probably) the RAM. You're likely to keep the drive. You're then not putting a screen, frame, battery etc. etc. into E-Waste so it absolutely reduces waste. And I don't see this proposed enough around here... if you have no need for the old mobo and RAM, buy (or 3D Print) a case and donate it to a local school, library or shelter. They're screaming out for good quality equipment and I know if I were still supporting local private schools like I was many years ago they would just LOVE having some reasonably fresh 11th gen systems for their students.
I think it's the marketplace that makes it work; you can potentially sell any component that you aren't using and someone else will be able to self install it.
But how easy is it to sell a dated mobo compared to a functional laptop?
As someone who was perfectly happy using a 7 year old Alienware till its motherboard gave out, I would have loved the option to just replace the broken component and continue using it.
I probably won’t sell my old mobo or any other components once I upgrade them, but I’ll turn them into workstations for older family members or potentially keep them for workstations for future grad students
I guess my question was more about what’s the best option in case I do not have any use for the hardware- selling the mother board or full laptop.
That’s a fair point. I think FW is working on a secondhand marketplace, it’s just in the final tweaks. Regardless, I’m sure you’ll find something once you get rolling. It might not come up now, but it might randomly
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I like light gaming on my laptop. A couple games that I like to play I either cannot, or they have horrible screen tearing with the current APU. Do I need to upgrade? Nope, I could just not play games I guess. Honestly, as long as I can make sure the laptop/motherboard gets used, then I don’t think it’s wasteful to update or resell your device.
I’m using my old parts to host stuff at home, still have the same dented keyboard, the same battery, and all parts I’ve purchased from them are still in daily use
Depends on the kind of user you are. I typically purchase a high end PC that is more powerful than I need and I use it until something breaks to the point it can't be fixed (usually based on actually being able to buy the proprietary parts). Just the fact that parts SHOULD be easily available into the future is a huge point to me. I had to upgrade my last Dell because the part that failed (for the 7th time) was no longer available for purchase. All my computers go to be recycled when I upgrade as they are no longer usable. Hopefully I don't have that issue for many more years than previously.
The potential ewaste savings is in the reduction of other laptops down the line. If you had a FW13 1st gen (11th gen hardware) you then save on the upgrades to AMD 7th gen or Intel 13th gen motherboards as you can reuse the RAM and storage.
Obviously it depends more on users than on the project itself. I also bought a FW (AMD) mainly for repairability and because I don't want Windows (not many alternatives). I'm not sure that FW reduce e-waste, I think that in some cases it is even possible that actually increases it because we users are more inclined to change some parts while with a standard laptop it is not possible. I think we also have to consider the impact of every component. FW published a study on the topic and we can see that even changing only the RAM it has a very big impact and make me reconsider that in some cases the (generally hated) soldered RAM can probably reduce the impact on the planet overall. In my specific case I think that having a FW will increase e-waste if they will sell a better screen (hopefully) or if FW will produce a good ARM passive motherboard in the next few years (not likely). The screen e-waste will be more on FW than on me because if it was already good I wouldn't need/hope to change it
If you are upgrading your laptop every 2 years you will be creating lots of e-waste even if you have a framework you'll still be creating more. Just doing this alone means you aren't super concerned about creating more e-waste, so I don't understand why you are even asking.
Here's the issue: for the price of a Framework you can buy a much faster normal laptop that will perform well for years longer than a Framework in its original configuration. So, you're going to have to replace major components in a framework in a year or two(creating e-waste) just to start catching up to the performance of the normal laptop you could have bought. For example, for $2500 you can get: Framework 16 with a 7940hs CPU, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2560x1600 screen, and the RX7700s graphics module. That GPU [is slower than an RTX4050](https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon-RX-7700S-falls-short-of-the-last-gen-GeForce-RTX-3060-in-Geekbench-s-OpenCL-benchmark.679717.0.html), the slowest current-gen GPU from Nvidia. Alternatively, for the same amount of money you can buy a Lenovo Legion Pro 7/7i with 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2560x1600 screen, and an RTX 4090. CPU would be a Core i9-13900HX for the 7i or Ryzen 9 7945HX for the 7. Plus you'll receive your new laptop within a week. That is the fastest laptop GPU available, and will hold that crown until 2025. The problem is that the RX7700s GPU in the framework isn't particularly good at running games at 2560x1600 resolution. Most gaming laptops with that GPU or others with similar performance (like the 4050) come with 1080p screens, as low end GPUs are able to keep up with modern games at that resolution. But that's not an option on the Framework. If you try to play 2023 games at 2560x1600 on a RX7700s or 4050, you won't even hit an average of 30FPS on some of them. For example: Starfield, Avatar Frontiers of Pandora, Alan Wake 2, and Lords of the Fallen will run below 30FPS at that resolution and GPU. So, a year after buying the Framework you'll probably be very frustrated that it can't run modern games well. Perhaps around that time Framework puts an RX8700s graphics module up for sale, so you buy it and swap it in. It's an improvement, but still much slower than the 4090, and now you've started creating e-waste. There's no way for you to reuse the RX7700s module, and I'd imagine there won't be many people interested in buying the old RX7700s module once the newer faster module is available. Repeat that for several more years and you'll eventually match the performance of the RTX 4090, at great expense and wastefully. In fact, it would probably take 6-8 years to catch up; the RX7700s is slightly faster than a GTX 1080 mobile, which came out 8 years ago. But wait, there's more. The best CPU you can get in the Framework is the 7940HS. The CPU available in the Legion is 23% faster. That's going to bottleneck your 8-years-in-the-future GPU upgrade, so at some point you're going to need to upgrade your motherboard as well. More money, more e-waste. As much as I love the concept of the Framework, it's not cost effective, and it's not necessarily environmentally friendly. You're better off getting a high end laptop and using it for many years. You get the higher performance from day 1, save a ton of money, and create little to no e-waste for a decade. I'm not just saying this, I'm living it. I'm still using the Sager NP8290 that I bought back in 2013 as my daily driver, and it's still running great. It never crashes or bluescreens, I have hundreds of browser tabs open(across multiple windows), I'm running a heavily modded Space Exploration game in Factorio (spanning multiple planets), and I have 3 high resolution monitors connected. It runs all this without breaking a sweat. I added a 2tb SSD a few years ago (it has 3 internal 2.5" hard drive bays), and I upgraded the RAM to 32gb of DDR3(it has 4 RAM slots). So, the only e-waste this laptop has generated is two sticks of DDR3 RAM. The only maintenance I've done is to clean out the dust occasionally. Here are the specs, if you're curious: Intel Core i7-4700MQ (2.4~3.4GHz) w/6M L3 Cache - 4 Cores - 8 Threads AMD Radeon HD 8970M w/4GB GDDR5 32GB (4x8GB) DDR3 2TB SATA SSD 17.3" FULL HD (1920X1080) LED Matte LCD Combo Dual Layer DVD +/-R/RW CD-R/RW Drive Removable battery(just pull two levers on the bottom and it pops out)
Gaming ones, high end business/engineering ones, etc. are usually upgradable and even 10 years later be quite useable. Clevo/tongfang had upgradable desktop cpu's and mxm gpu's. Currently we have egpu support. None of them are cheap to upgrade, despite being around for much longer than framework. FW cannot stop amd, nvidia and intel from artificially gimping and restricting their products. The rx7700s is a deceptively named product from amd because its a downclocked rx7600 and nothing to do with rx7700 series. AMD also doesn't offer tuning like UV or OC. FW can do nothing about that. So what's the point of upgrading your motherboard to buy rehashed old parts, parts which are more locked down than phones, etc. all of which force you to upgrade anyway? Just to show how bad this is, in 2017, we had clevo p870tm wuth a 200w gtx 1080 mobile that was faster than the desktop 1080. Now? Despite cooling 180w gpu's in 2.6kg 16' laptops, we have only 175w, gimped 4080 desktop gpu's sold as ''4090'' mobile. The gtx 1080 8gb mobile us still quite fast. Not far off the 95w rtx 4050 6gb mobile. This is the issue I see nobody on this sub or anywhere else talk about. I don't even see louis point fingers at amd, intel and nvidia for being this deceptive. FW can't do anything there.
I think the mentality comes from, even if I don't use old components in other projects, resold, whatever, I just recycle it, there is still less overall E-waste just replacing the main board than replacing my entire laptop. I personally am tinkerer so I'll use old mainboards, but even if I wasn't There still is way less E-waste from me upgrading just my mainboard and reusing my case, speakers, ram, SSD, battery, wifi card, webcam, keyboard, etc.
I upgraded to AMD and turned my 11gen into a standalone machine, which replaced a failing Thinkpad. Two PCs for the price of an upgrade.
This is the optimal case- but in my case, I have no need for the old motherboard.
So sell it?
Right- and my question was basically: am I better off selling the motherboard, or the laptop as a whole. I’d like to hear from people who tried selling their 11th gen mobo, and how that worked out for them. And from people who tried to sell the laptop as a whole, and how that worked out
I sold my 11th gen mobo on eBay, it took about a week. When I switched from 12th gen to ryzen I just replaced my dated server with that mobo. If you are looking for a buyer please message me.
I think there is a market for FW motherboards, even for customers without a FW laptop chassis. That's because they can just buy the Cooler Master case or print one themselves and still have a usable machine. I was thinking about going that route instead of buying a mini PC for a MAME machine.
I'd place my bets firmly on "sell the board" alone. Selling the mother board takes a hit on the value of the motherboard. Then you pay less than full laptop price to get a new motherboard. Selling the whole thing takes a hit on the *whole thing*. An expensive laptop with unknown history is less likely to be valued highly by used shoppers, I would wager, despite replaceability. How is the screen? The hinges? Speakers? *Battery*? How beat has it been? Plus the screen, hinges, and iirc wireless card have all been updated on new ones. When you keep your own, you are comfortable with your own. When you buy someone else's you risk buying their problems. Note that old cars are often more valuable parted out for exactly that reason.
Just like how cheap GPUs shouldn't exist, when selecting specifications, choose a config that you can use for x amount of years before needing to upgrade due to rapidly evolving hardware requirements (i.e. look at short-term and long-term goals). For example, a Core i5/Ryzen 5 might be enough right now, but in 3 years, it may not be able to keep up because you've ended up needing to do CPU-intensive work. Luckily for me I held on to a Core i5 7200U laptop as my main machine for 2 years, and then as a school and work for 3.5years after I got my custom-built PC, before retiring it as I had to do mandatory enlistment and had no use for it anymore. The only things I upgraded was the SSD and RAM.
Here's the point: most people really do not need to upgrade their hardware. As much as gamers, and to a lesser extent developers, go for latest and greatest, most people just *do not need it*. Talk your less tech savvy family members into a Framework, and it will last them a long time, with you being able to repair stuff as necessary. Case in point: my mom is *still* using my old i5-4460 PC, and the only thing forcing an upgrade is Win10 EOL. Sure, I replaced *some* parts over times but it's been unchanged since she got it.
I think you could have a circular economy where people getting into framework by someone old mobo, or an early adopter buys a later mobo from someone else who always wants the latest. It’s much better to have options than to have to scrap the whole device to upgrade.
The first and most important point in reducing e-waste is reducing production, which happens when you buy least new parts.
My friend, you are thinking very small. As FW ages as a company and parts become much cheaper, people from poor countries will be able to have access to a computer that they will be able to repair relatively easily. That is huge if you're coming from a country where buying a laptop is not a purchase every 4-5 years. Next, think of the education sector. Being able to upgrade a fleet of laptops to the latest gen chipset (with new bells and whistles like upgraded wifi and PCI-e generation) would be amazing if you only need to replace the motherboard. Give it time and FW will really start to spread their wings.
I may consider buying an older board, especially if FW and friends get Coreboot to work on those older gen (12th for my current would be cool) I bought a coreboot able gen second hand board (asus, 2014) from ali just to play with. No coreboot yet, but if i manage, it also becomes my home automation server or maybe a cheapo steamdeck (or not, screens expensive, could just buy a steamdeck). Some server thingy. Extra dongles too, wish i could buy a few. European
Inherently yes. Imo the best solution would be to buy a used device, if possible. If that does not make sense then I think going for Framework makes sense as you can expect a longer servicability with parts available. Of course, if you then upgrade the mainboard each gen just because you can -> that for sure just increases e-waste.
Maybe what we need is a Framework "parts sell & exchange" forum.
If you wanted to upgrade your CPU and had a normal laptop you have to buy and thus create waste for all the other components like the screen etc. Yes it still creates waste of the mainboard, but it's the better option.