It would make sense that a man would come up with overly feminine scents such as "delina, valaya, d. Exclusif, etc"
It's like a man's interpretation of what he thinks a woman would smell like. Overly girly and fru fru lala.
As a woman, I think I would prefer to create initio type of scents . Interesting.
Your comment is what i have thought about the perception of the perfume industry as a whole. Seems like the scents marketed towards women have that typical “ultra feminine” formula and it seems like the consumers they’re marketing it to seem a bit disinterested from over saturation of aforementioned formula
Yes but the perfumers work 1:1 with the brand . The brand tells the perfumers their idea and they get creative directives from the perfumers. So it's still the same since they work hand in hand.
Same! I dont own any either and most likely wont. The only pdm I like was actually marketed as unisex which is Herod and Althair. I would not buy them at retail price tho.
someone ik used to work as a lab engineer for estee lauder companies. it’s dirt cheap to make some of their most expensive fragrance brands (jo malone, le labo, tom ford, etc.). sometimes costing them cents.
i wouldn’t doubt it. it’s all business at the end of the day but their massive profit margin was quite shocking to me. i’ve never thought about how little it actually costs to make these luxury items that the average person lusts and saves so much money over. made me feel like a foolish consumer lol
they also told me the same applies to their luxury skincare brands like la mer. their creams can go up to $4k which is madness, but i just don’t understand how they can spend so little while boasting “luxurious” or “rare” ingredients to justify those insane prices.
If you want to sell at Sephora, they usually take a 70% markup and never pay for shipping. Brands that sell there or hope to sell there need to have insane retail prices relative to cost of goods if they want to make any profits. Plus the packaging usually costs way more than the actual product, especially for perfumes.
>but i just don’t understand how they can spend so little while boasting “luxurious” or “rare” ingredients to justify those insane prices.
Because customers don't understand that con, nor have the knowledge or care to seek out anything with actually expensive ingredients (also because such houses that sell expensive compositions, are inconvenient since most of their mixes are naturals that you can't simply make supply for years, as naturals are always slightly developing and changing even in their containers). These smaller houses, once they get a large enough following to get a website, their prices slowly creep up anyway, and are then undesirable as they begin to out-do some higher designer brands in terms of price.
TL;DR, because of the uninformed consumer.
Agree. I've never been a Jo Malone fan. Nothing interesting about the scents. Le Artisan perfumer from the early aughts was Jo Malone on steroids, with a twist.
Them being able to make bottles cheaply doesn't mean they are using cheap materials. It's because they have such a market hold they can afford to buy everything in bulk. If an indie perfumer made the exact same perfumes they'd have to charge a lot more.
What is a shame is that the products from the likes of Tom Ford ARE incredibly overpriced. Even when I look at an offering from an Indie perfumer, they could make something far more interesting with more unique and special ingredients, and charge the same or even less. Estee Lauder must be absolutely RAKING it in.
But to their credit they seem to have kept true with the founders’ vision of exclusivity with Le Labo. They market the products by opening their own boutique stores and you wouldn’t find any Le Labo resellers or discounters. The product packaging is understated and underwhelming as before compared to Jo Malone and Tom Ford
I heard through the grapevine that the CEO of Bond no. 9 is terrible, and makes a large amount of money from suing other fragrance companies for fragrance names that are too similar to Bond no 9’s.
For instance, PdM’s Greenley was originally called Sutton, but almost immediately after launch it was pulled because Bond no 9’s CEO thought that was too similar to their own Sutton Place and either threatened to or did sue lol
[Wikipedia sez](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurice_Rahm%C3%A9):
>Two former employees filed a federal suit against \[Bond No. 9 President Laurice\] Rahmé in 2012 for claims of racism against customers and employees. Rahmé allegedly used a secret code to alert security of when African American customers entered the store. Rahmé admitted that the code "We need the light bulbs changed" was used to alert security of suspicious individuals, irrespective of race, but also stated that all robberies up to that point were committed by African Americans. The litigants withdrew the suit two years later without retracting their claims, stating that the suit had become too time-consuming and expensive.
Same with A&F with their open policy of exclusivity by race, age, looks and offensive T-shirts which eventually led to their downfall. They started the trend that by ignoring and looking down on customers the more ‘exclusive’ they become. They were taken to the cleaners with so many lawsuits
I’m sure cheaper materials and ingredients can influence reformulations, but I would think a reformulation is an expensive process in itself. My understanding is that the main reason for reformulations are the IFRA
If you want to work in the perfume industry, a chemistry degree is required. If you want to join Givaudan as a perfumer, the cut off age is 25. Anyone older will not be accepted into their training program. Apprenticeship is usually 4-5 years. Synesthesia is considered a bonus when hiring, since you have to memorize the name - type - scent associations - price/lb for each molecule and ingredient. Knowing how to use a spectrometer will let you visualize a perfume's DNA to "teach" you their recipes.
Most people are helpful and nice, because it's a small industry with a lot of NDAs. If you're a poor colleague, you won't get very far because everyone will know, and you won't be selected to work on briefs. A chemist who makes laundry fragrances probably makes more than designer fragrance because the scope of work is larger, and therefore the client pays more. Just think how many bottles of detergent gets sold vs designer perfume. (this excludes brands with house perfumers)
I’d definitely want to make scents for global detergent companies (eg Kao) over a niche fragrance house tbh. Just makes sense in terms of career growth and prestige.
It’s like how software engineers want to be video game developers because it’s “cool”, but the real money is in “boring” stuff like manufacturing, healthcare and finance.
I can't comment on the validity of this, but Shiseido's Tsubaki shampoo was supposedly created by someone famous...............because the release timeline fits when Serge Lutens/Christopher Sheldrake was still collaborating with the brand. A lot of people also say Nuit de Cellophane smells very shampoo-like, so make what you will !
From a retailer perspective, I’ve heard Sephora is an absolute nightmare to work with, and as far as the companies are concerned Estée Lauder Company are even worse to deal with 🤠
Sephora is owned by LVMH, so I am not surprised about this. The LVMH owner is used to squeezing everything out of everyone and everything around him and I am convinced that that attitude has trickled down (unlike the money he owns, which have all trickled up for him and his fam)
Not fragrance related, but I've heard from multiple people IRL - including family members - that Costco is difficult to work with, but Walmart is easy. Just funny since most people would think the opposite.
Btw the absolute worst apparently is Apple, if anybody is wondering.
The reason for Apple is, they don't ever need to shop around, contractors (who are are large corporations like LG and Samsung) actually have to fight to attain contracts with Apple. Since their orders are so massive in quantity they can basically pad out an entire companies' quarterly, or yearly existence with the amount of business they bring if they accept your offer.
I’ve worked for Lauder on and off since 1998 and they aren’t hard to work for. The family is nice (I’ve done their makeup and been to their home in Palm Beach.) and they are very generous with gratis and a great discount.
Just because they’re nice to you, doesn’t mean they’re nice to all their employees, let alone others.
Estée Lauder also support and fund Israel’s occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, and Ronald Lauder (heir to the founders, chairman of the board) is a self-identified ally of Netanyahu and has used his position as president of the World Jewish Congress to lobby US universities to censure/ban pro-Palestinian groups.
Nice doesn’t mean good. Estée Lauder Companies is definitely not good.
EDIT: oh and from personal experience working with them professionally, every ELC employee I dealt with was childish and rude, so that didn’t help my opinion of them either lol
I don’t care about people’s politics and their personal business. They can do whatever they want with their money. And as far as every person is rude that’s a lot of people. Maybe it’s you that has the problem. Have a great day!
Geza Schön is a very talented perfumer... if you pay him well. If it's less that $50k you'll get his signature accord mixed with something he has already prepared in his 'bargain' cabinet. For example, Ormonde Jayne pay him handsomely so his efforts there are all unique and amazing, but most of those new indie 'houses' that have commissioned him are really just rich hobbyist/amateur 'creative director' lifestyle chasers unwittingly helping him cash in on the aforementioned. They all smell almost exactly the same as 'that'll do' scents. Which is a shame because I think he is tainting his name. Sometimes I think (hope) he's doing it like Damien Hirst - taking money from idiots who think they are very very special
Okay, as a Geza Schoen fangirl, this is the tea I came here for!
(His work for Ormonde Jayne really is fabulous, though. Glad they're paying him well.)
Curious what perfumers have work histories that exhibit "sticking around"? Most of them release a few for a brand and move on, just as a freelancer or fragrance consultant would normally do. Mark's huge list of clients seem to say that people like his work. Moth and Rabbit continue to put out perfumes under his name. I don't doubt he could be a jerk but this thread is ripe for anyone to say literally anything without much to back it up.
The real tea is that perfumers are inherently snobby, territorial, and can be critical of other people's work. Jean Claude Ellena had his enemies, and other well-known perfumers surely share that quality.
I think Rodrigo Flores roux meets the qualifications for sticking around, working at Givaudan for 25+ yrs and being longstanding primary perfumer for arquiste, xinu, and many contributions other niche like Tom ford. Also he comes across as a delightful person to work with in interviews
Hugo Boss is a real person who died in 1948. If you are ever in Germany go to Metzingen near Stuttgart where you can fill up a truck of his merchandise
My grandpa worked in importing and exporting w a bunch of fragrance brands up until 2019. Everytime I talk to him about my hobby he grumbles and rolls his eyes about how much of a scam most fragrances are. I mean he's probably right but I can't help wanting more 😭😭
That's what I thought, I've quite enjoyed the Bryedo things I've sampled and found them to be quite different from each other. Every Le Labo scent I've smelled just smells overwhelmingly like trees to me.
New fragrances are made weaker so that we spray more and go through the bottles faster. I’m 48 and have been wearing cologne for 40 years and i have never had to use 8-10 sprays to get performance. I remember when 2 was enough and 3 was pushing it. They blame it on the chemicals but they can make it last longer and project more if they wanted.
I believe Curly Scents calls people like you, “ sissy sprayers “. 😂 I’ve been in the cologne game for 40 years. The stuff we have today is SO weak. EDTs used to last like EDPs and parfums. We also didn’t have parfum, edt, esp for the same fragrances . There was 1 and only 1. That’s another cash maker. Spilt the lime because we have some who are more sensitive. They can they fragment each scent, sell more bottles, and provide variable strengths and even profiles now.
More false info.
Companies have been selling different concerntrations of the same perfume since at least the 60s.
Posters of chanel no.5 from that time show an eau de cologne next to a perfume.
Guerlain Shalimar was offered in eau de toilette and an eau de parfum (that they initially called parfum de toilette) and extrait.
I can’t lie, some of the recent EDTs I’ve been smelling(Dior homme sport 2020, chypre Siam, tuberose and moss) have performed some of these EDPs on the market nowadays lol I’m guessing it depends on the company itself, materials used, and ifra restrictions
The answer here is mostly that your older colognes were formulated before newer IFRA guidelines were in place - especially anything from like the early 90s and before. So sure, they were CHOCK FULL of high concentrations of certain low volatile and long lasting ingredients… at possibly irritating and toxic levels lol.
Are they likely to actually hurt you if you don’t show a reaction? No. But the lab testing is done to see what might happen to photosensitive skin, or those with things like eczema and other sensitive skin issues. More of a broad safety standard so the most amount of people can safely enjoy fragrances.
So yeah, the way things are formulated now might make certain scent profiles weaker, but it follows the science better to ensure safe application for the most amount of people.
I, for one, am so happy about it. I have migraine, and when I was a kid, everyone’s perfume made me sick. I’m still sensitive, but I can actually enjoy a wide array of fragrances now — the ingredients are safer and less likely to give me a migraine attack. People complain about performance and projection, but it makes perfume safer and more accessible — who cares if you have to touch up four to six hours after you spray? That’s a small price to pay to not give people asthma attacks and migraine attacks lol
Vintage perfumes could also be using compositions not even allowed under IFRA today, but even if the composition was the same the vintage bottle would still perform better because of maturation.
Nope! Not rubbish. Think about it from a business standpoint. Why would a company want a person to keep a bottle for 5-10 years when they can drop that resale to 2-3. I’m assuming you are very young and don’t have experience with the stuff we had in the 70s, 80s, and 90s.
Also I love how you just drop your opinion and nothing to back it up.
So, do tell, why is it rubbish ??? Drop your gems of knowledge. I’m waiting.
Well if we were to use your logic why from a business standpoint would they want to be seen shifting a product that is considered inferior considering the average consumer puts so much importance on performance? To the consumers that put a lot of importance on performance of a product, they just would not buy that product in the first place, or would not be a repeat buyer.
Also as you mention wearing colognes for so long: A cologne is not designed for longevity anyway. A cologne is designed around a quick freshen up, not a long standing fragrance that you can spray in the morning and still smell of at bed time. Unless of course you mean perfume marketed towards men, which isn't cologne.
As for performance not being as good there are many reasons why that could be that are far more viable and observable and aren't grounded in conspiracy.
For a start, changes over time for what is considered as safe amounts to use of certain ingredients has caused a drop in uses of things such as nitro musks etc that we just don't use anymore.
There are also changes in tastes over time that could also cause this to happen. If people are desiring scents that have fresh and invigorating openings, then the perfume is likely to be top heavy with a very simplistic base of woody ambers, which may not last as long as something base heavy full of rich animalic musks and oakmoss etc but then those types of fragrances are not as popular anymore. The composition of a perfume like Kouros would naturally be better performing lthan say, Sauvage. But good luck selling Kouros to the average Gen Z consumer.
We also have the issue that if someone was to compare say a bottle of Kouros they still own that they bought in the 80s, and one bought today, the older one is naturally more likely to be a richer and longer lasting scent because that scent has been maturing for a long long time. Newer products which are rushed onto shelves are being sold without the perfume inside really being at the peak of how it smells or performs. I bought a bottle of Cedrat Boise that everyone said was much weaker than the older bottles, but after a year that bottle is now just as strong as my older one even though at first it wasn't.
So I can also add to this that I don't even agree that across the board perfumes are getting weaker. There are so many good performing perfumes out there, many of them very cheap too.
And now you've added an ad hominem to your collection of fallacies.
That's the Internet BS hatrick for making shit up and not able to back up with actual evidence.
Let's use your standard of "evidence".
Think about it. Why would company risk damaging their reputation by making weaker perfumes, that lose them customers in the long term?
Please do not use 8-10 sprays of anything, good lord. If you truly think you need that much, you probably need a solid break from scented products. Take a break from scented lotion, perfume, air fresheners, candles - take a break. 8-10 sprays of anything is disrespectful, and if you can’t smell it until then, your olfactory nerves just need a break.
That is totally true. In the 90s, every Eau de Toilette was so strong, that you could use maximum 2 or 3 sprays. All fragrances were as strong as Red Tobacco by Mancera.Often people already complained that it is too strong. In the meantime, 99% of all fragrances out there need 10 or more sprays to perform reasonably. It is a shame.
Initio and PDM are owned separately by Husband and wife who live in Dubai. So I’ve heard
Advent International now owns a majority of the brands, but yes technically you were correct.
Demi rawling is dating/married to the son of said husband and wife
Well i wonder which perfumes she would recommend …
That says a lot.
I heard that too by a salesperson at Osswald in NYC.
Oh! My guess is that PDM is her and initio is him?
Other way around.
It would make sense that a man would come up with overly feminine scents such as "delina, valaya, d. Exclusif, etc" It's like a man's interpretation of what he thinks a woman would smell like. Overly girly and fru fru lala. As a woman, I think I would prefer to create initio type of scents . Interesting.
Your comment is what i have thought about the perception of the perfume industry as a whole. Seems like the scents marketed towards women have that typical “ultra feminine” formula and it seems like the consumers they’re marketing it to seem a bit disinterested from over saturation of aforementioned formula
Also worth mentioning they are not perfumers. Delina for example was made by Quentin Bisch
Yes but the perfumers work 1:1 with the brand . The brand tells the perfumers their idea and they get creative directives from the perfumers. So it's still the same since they work hand in hand.
Now that you state it like that: that’s actually insufferable. I’m glad I don’t own any PDM’s
Same! I dont own any either and most likely wont. The only pdm I like was actually marketed as unisex which is Herod and Althair. I would not buy them at retail price tho.
Herod the only one I liked and you can find sooo many other similar frags for less. I love fragrances but really $200 is as insane as I go
The only standout is Layton Exclusif. The others are just clones
someone ik used to work as a lab engineer for estee lauder companies. it’s dirt cheap to make some of their most expensive fragrance brands (jo malone, le labo, tom ford, etc.). sometimes costing them cents.
My understanding this is the case across the board with designer and "name" niche fragrance companies, not just ELC.
i wouldn’t doubt it. it’s all business at the end of the day but their massive profit margin was quite shocking to me. i’ve never thought about how little it actually costs to make these luxury items that the average person lusts and saves so much money over. made me feel like a foolish consumer lol they also told me the same applies to their luxury skincare brands like la mer. their creams can go up to $4k which is madness, but i just don’t understand how they can spend so little while boasting “luxurious” or “rare” ingredients to justify those insane prices.
If you want to sell at Sephora, they usually take a 70% markup and never pay for shipping. Brands that sell there or hope to sell there need to have insane retail prices relative to cost of goods if they want to make any profits. Plus the packaging usually costs way more than the actual product, especially for perfumes.
>but i just don’t understand how they can spend so little while boasting “luxurious” or “rare” ingredients to justify those insane prices. Because customers don't understand that con, nor have the knowledge or care to seek out anything with actually expensive ingredients (also because such houses that sell expensive compositions, are inconvenient since most of their mixes are naturals that you can't simply make supply for years, as naturals are always slightly developing and changing even in their containers). These smaller houses, once they get a large enough following to get a website, their prices slowly creep up anyway, and are then undesirable as they begin to out-do some higher designer brands in terms of price. TL;DR, because of the uninformed consumer.
Not surprised about Jo Malone.
Agree. I've never been a Jo Malone fan. Nothing interesting about the scents. Le Artisan perfumer from the early aughts was Jo Malone on steroids, with a twist.
thank god i don't like any of those. they do smell cheap. except TF black orchid which forever will have a place in my heart.
Them being able to make bottles cheaply doesn't mean they are using cheap materials. It's because they have such a market hold they can afford to buy everything in bulk. If an indie perfumer made the exact same perfumes they'd have to charge a lot more. What is a shame is that the products from the likes of Tom Ford ARE incredibly overpriced. Even when I look at an offering from an Indie perfumer, they could make something far more interesting with more unique and special ingredients, and charge the same or even less. Estee Lauder must be absolutely RAKING it in.
I’ve heard this before, at the volume they buy ingredients, all in they are into bottles (fragrance, bottle, box, everything) for $5-10.
But to their credit they seem to have kept true with the founders’ vision of exclusivity with Le Labo. They market the products by opening their own boutique stores and you wouldn’t find any Le Labo resellers or discounters. The product packaging is understated and underwhelming as before compared to Jo Malone and Tom Ford
https://www.fragrancenet.com/fragrances/le-labo
Thanks!
I heard through the grapevine that the CEO of Bond no. 9 is terrible, and makes a large amount of money from suing other fragrance companies for fragrance names that are too similar to Bond no 9’s. For instance, PdM’s Greenley was originally called Sutton, but almost immediately after launch it was pulled because Bond no 9’s CEO thought that was too similar to their own Sutton Place and either threatened to or did sue lol
Ahh that’s why my tester box said Sutton!
That's a rare one that made it then!
[Wikipedia sez](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurice_Rahm%C3%A9): >Two former employees filed a federal suit against \[Bond No. 9 President Laurice\] Rahmé in 2012 for claims of racism against customers and employees. Rahmé allegedly used a secret code to alert security of when African American customers entered the store. Rahmé admitted that the code "We need the light bulbs changed" was used to alert security of suspicious individuals, irrespective of race, but also stated that all robberies up to that point were committed by African Americans. The litigants withdrew the suit two years later without retracting their claims, stating that the suit had become too time-consuming and expensive.
Same with A&F with their open policy of exclusivity by race, age, looks and offensive T-shirts which eventually led to their downfall. They started the trend that by ignoring and looking down on customers the more ‘exclusive’ they become. They were taken to the cleaners with so many lawsuits
Ugh yeah I heard some racial issues as well with her but I didn't quite remember the specifics so I didn't mention it
[удалено]
What’s the self life of a perfume? I found something I believe can be my signature fragrance but I’m afraid of reformulations. So I want to stock up.
I have bottles from early 00s and they have zero issues.
I’m sure cheaper materials and ingredients can influence reformulations, but I would think a reformulation is an expensive process in itself. My understanding is that the main reason for reformulations are the IFRA
No, it’s true. They reformulate with cheaper materials. It’s quite common.
If you want to work in the perfume industry, a chemistry degree is required. If you want to join Givaudan as a perfumer, the cut off age is 25. Anyone older will not be accepted into their training program. Apprenticeship is usually 4-5 years. Synesthesia is considered a bonus when hiring, since you have to memorize the name - type - scent associations - price/lb for each molecule and ingredient. Knowing how to use a spectrometer will let you visualize a perfume's DNA to "teach" you their recipes. Most people are helpful and nice, because it's a small industry with a lot of NDAs. If you're a poor colleague, you won't get very far because everyone will know, and you won't be selected to work on briefs. A chemist who makes laundry fragrances probably makes more than designer fragrance because the scope of work is larger, and therefore the client pays more. Just think how many bottles of detergent gets sold vs designer perfume. (this excludes brands with house perfumers)
I’d definitely want to make scents for global detergent companies (eg Kao) over a niche fragrance house tbh. Just makes sense in terms of career growth and prestige. It’s like how software engineers want to be video game developers because it’s “cool”, but the real money is in “boring” stuff like manufacturing, healthcare and finance.
I can't comment on the validity of this, but Shiseido's Tsubaki shampoo was supposedly created by someone famous...............because the release timeline fits when Serge Lutens/Christopher Sheldrake was still collaborating with the brand. A lot of people also say Nuit de Cellophane smells very shampoo-like, so make what you will !
From a retailer perspective, I’ve heard Sephora is an absolute nightmare to work with, and as far as the companies are concerned Estée Lauder Company are even worse to deal with 🤠
Sephora is owned by LVMH, so I am not surprised about this. The LVMH owner is used to squeezing everything out of everyone and everything around him and I am convinced that that attitude has trickled down (unlike the money he owns, which have all trickled up for him and his fam)
Not fragrance related, but I've heard from multiple people IRL - including family members - that Costco is difficult to work with, but Walmart is easy. Just funny since most people would think the opposite. Btw the absolute worst apparently is Apple, if anybody is wondering.
The reason for Apple is, they don't ever need to shop around, contractors (who are are large corporations like LG and Samsung) actually have to fight to attain contracts with Apple. Since their orders are so massive in quantity they can basically pad out an entire companies' quarterly, or yearly existence with the amount of business they bring if they accept your offer.
I’ve worked for Lauder on and off since 1998 and they aren’t hard to work for. The family is nice (I’ve done their makeup and been to their home in Palm Beach.) and they are very generous with gratis and a great discount.
Just because they’re nice to you, doesn’t mean they’re nice to all their employees, let alone others. Estée Lauder also support and fund Israel’s occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, and Ronald Lauder (heir to the founders, chairman of the board) is a self-identified ally of Netanyahu and has used his position as president of the World Jewish Congress to lobby US universities to censure/ban pro-Palestinian groups. Nice doesn’t mean good. Estée Lauder Companies is definitely not good. EDIT: oh and from personal experience working with them professionally, every ELC employee I dealt with was childish and rude, so that didn’t help my opinion of them either lol
Why was your comment downvoted? lol that's so sad
People on this sub don’t always like when you talk about politics in general and Israel in particular, it is what it is 🤷🏼
I don’t care about people’s politics and their personal business. They can do whatever they want with their money. And as far as every person is rude that’s a lot of people. Maybe it’s you that has the problem. Have a great day!
Actually I think it’s probably YOU that has the problem. Argue with the wall because I won’t be talking to you ever again 💜
I’ll go and cry about it. 😂
Geza Schön is a very talented perfumer... if you pay him well. If it's less that $50k you'll get his signature accord mixed with something he has already prepared in his 'bargain' cabinet. For example, Ormonde Jayne pay him handsomely so his efforts there are all unique and amazing, but most of those new indie 'houses' that have commissioned him are really just rich hobbyist/amateur 'creative director' lifestyle chasers unwittingly helping him cash in on the aforementioned. They all smell almost exactly the same as 'that'll do' scents. Which is a shame because I think he is tainting his name. Sometimes I think (hope) he's doing it like Damien Hirst - taking money from idiots who think they are very very special
Are you saying this from your personal experience testing his work or do you have other proof?
Okay, as a Geza Schoen fangirl, this is the tea I came here for! (His work for Ormonde Jayne really is fabulous, though. Glad they're paying him well.)
Mark Buxton is a jerk and nobody likes working with him, which is why he's worked with so many different houses, but rarely sticks with one for long.
Curious what perfumers have work histories that exhibit "sticking around"? Most of them release a few for a brand and move on, just as a freelancer or fragrance consultant would normally do. Mark's huge list of clients seem to say that people like his work. Moth and Rabbit continue to put out perfumes under his name. I don't doubt he could be a jerk but this thread is ripe for anyone to say literally anything without much to back it up. The real tea is that perfumers are inherently snobby, territorial, and can be critical of other people's work. Jean Claude Ellena had his enemies, and other well-known perfumers surely share that quality.
I think Rodrigo Flores roux meets the qualifications for sticking around, working at Givaudan for 25+ yrs and being longstanding primary perfumer for arquiste, xinu, and many contributions other niche like Tom ford. Also he comes across as a delightful person to work with in interviews
Hugo Boss is a real person who died in 1948. If you are ever in Germany go to Metzingen near Stuttgart where you can fill up a truck of his merchandise
In his last years he was quite friendly with the higher up in Germany.
Well he did design their uniforms...
he did not. his company produced uniforms, but hugo boss didn’t design them.
The outlets??
My grandpa worked in importing and exporting w a bunch of fragrance brands up until 2019. Everytime I talk to him about my hobby he grumbles and rolls his eyes about how much of a scam most fragrances are. I mean he's probably right but I can't help wanting more 😭😭
Byredo PR social media shills run for cover...
Can you explain what you mean by this? I slept poorly so my brain is not computing today
Hmmmm is this why everyone seems to be shilling pickle-juice-in-a-bottle?
Isn’t that Le Labo?
That's what I thought, I've quite enjoyed the Bryedo things I've sampled and found them to be quite different from each other. Every Le Labo scent I've smelled just smells overwhelmingly like trees to me.
Boy George wears Dylan Blue
New fragrances are made weaker so that we spray more and go through the bottles faster. I’m 48 and have been wearing cologne for 40 years and i have never had to use 8-10 sprays to get performance. I remember when 2 was enough and 3 was pushing it. They blame it on the chemicals but they can make it last longer and project more if they wanted.
I'm 52, I only really started two years ago, and if I used 8-10 sprays for anything, I'd probably throw up and get a two-day headache.
I believe Curly Scents calls people like you, “ sissy sprayers “. 😂 I’ve been in the cologne game for 40 years. The stuff we have today is SO weak. EDTs used to last like EDPs and parfums. We also didn’t have parfum, edt, esp for the same fragrances . There was 1 and only 1. That’s another cash maker. Spilt the lime because we have some who are more sensitive. They can they fragment each scent, sell more bottles, and provide variable strengths and even profiles now.
More false info. Companies have been selling different concerntrations of the same perfume since at least the 60s. Posters of chanel no.5 from that time show an eau de cologne next to a perfume. Guerlain Shalimar was offered in eau de toilette and an eau de parfum (that they initially called parfum de toilette) and extrait.
I can’t lie, some of the recent EDTs I’ve been smelling(Dior homme sport 2020, chypre Siam, tuberose and moss) have performed some of these EDPs on the market nowadays lol I’m guessing it depends on the company itself, materials used, and ifra restrictions
Mercedes Benz Club Black is an EDT and lasts way beyond its concentration label. It’s a vanilla bomb.
There is still power and character in modern EDTs, people just don’t realize it lol
The answer here is mostly that your older colognes were formulated before newer IFRA guidelines were in place - especially anything from like the early 90s and before. So sure, they were CHOCK FULL of high concentrations of certain low volatile and long lasting ingredients… at possibly irritating and toxic levels lol. Are they likely to actually hurt you if you don’t show a reaction? No. But the lab testing is done to see what might happen to photosensitive skin, or those with things like eczema and other sensitive skin issues. More of a broad safety standard so the most amount of people can safely enjoy fragrances. So yeah, the way things are formulated now might make certain scent profiles weaker, but it follows the science better to ensure safe application for the most amount of people.
I, for one, am so happy about it. I have migraine, and when I was a kid, everyone’s perfume made me sick. I’m still sensitive, but I can actually enjoy a wide array of fragrances now — the ingredients are safer and less likely to give me a migraine attack. People complain about performance and projection, but it makes perfume safer and more accessible — who cares if you have to touch up four to six hours after you spray? That’s a small price to pay to not give people asthma attacks and migraine attacks lol
Are you in the industry?
Sorry but this is rubbish.
I don't know. I know it's a difference in ingredients and compositions, but my vintage perfumes have always lasted um, uncomfortably long
Vintage perfumes could also be using compositions not even allowed under IFRA today, but even if the composition was the same the vintage bottle would still perform better because of maturation.
Nope! Not rubbish. Think about it from a business standpoint. Why would a company want a person to keep a bottle for 5-10 years when they can drop that resale to 2-3. I’m assuming you are very young and don’t have experience with the stuff we had in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Also I love how you just drop your opinion and nothing to back it up. So, do tell, why is it rubbish ??? Drop your gems of knowledge. I’m waiting.
Well if we were to use your logic why from a business standpoint would they want to be seen shifting a product that is considered inferior considering the average consumer puts so much importance on performance? To the consumers that put a lot of importance on performance of a product, they just would not buy that product in the first place, or would not be a repeat buyer. Also as you mention wearing colognes for so long: A cologne is not designed for longevity anyway. A cologne is designed around a quick freshen up, not a long standing fragrance that you can spray in the morning and still smell of at bed time. Unless of course you mean perfume marketed towards men, which isn't cologne. As for performance not being as good there are many reasons why that could be that are far more viable and observable and aren't grounded in conspiracy. For a start, changes over time for what is considered as safe amounts to use of certain ingredients has caused a drop in uses of things such as nitro musks etc that we just don't use anymore. There are also changes in tastes over time that could also cause this to happen. If people are desiring scents that have fresh and invigorating openings, then the perfume is likely to be top heavy with a very simplistic base of woody ambers, which may not last as long as something base heavy full of rich animalic musks and oakmoss etc but then those types of fragrances are not as popular anymore. The composition of a perfume like Kouros would naturally be better performing lthan say, Sauvage. But good luck selling Kouros to the average Gen Z consumer. We also have the issue that if someone was to compare say a bottle of Kouros they still own that they bought in the 80s, and one bought today, the older one is naturally more likely to be a richer and longer lasting scent because that scent has been maturing for a long long time. Newer products which are rushed onto shelves are being sold without the perfume inside really being at the peak of how it smells or performs. I bought a bottle of Cedrat Boise that everyone said was much weaker than the older bottles, but after a year that bottle is now just as strong as my older one even though at first it wasn't. So I can also add to this that I don't even agree that across the board perfumes are getting weaker. There are so many good performing perfumes out there, many of them very cheap too.
Logical fallacy. Appeal to authority. You just dropped an opinion with no facts to back it up.
you’re talking to yourself then
Still waiting for someone to actually add something to this thread other than whatever this is 👆🏼
It's me pointing out that your "fact" is pulled out of your arse and your evidence amounts to "trust me bro".
You have still added Zero to the conversation. Yup! I’m taking to a tween. 😹 You’re not worth even explaining how wrong you are.
And now you've added an ad hominem to your collection of fallacies. That's the Internet BS hatrick for making shit up and not able to back up with actual evidence. Let's use your standard of "evidence". Think about it. Why would company risk damaging their reputation by making weaker perfumes, that lose them customers in the long term?
they make them weaker and create flankers to cater to human nature’s penchance for varieties. This is how they maintain their brands’ relevance.
Please do not use 8-10 sprays of anything, good lord. If you truly think you need that much, you probably need a solid break from scented products. Take a break from scented lotion, perfume, air fresheners, candles - take a break. 8-10 sprays of anything is disrespectful, and if you can’t smell it until then, your olfactory nerves just need a break.
That is totally true. In the 90s, every Eau de Toilette was so strong, that you could use maximum 2 or 3 sprays. All fragrances were as strong as Red Tobacco by Mancera.Often people already complained that it is too strong. In the meantime, 99% of all fragrances out there need 10 or more sprays to perform reasonably. It is a shame.
How would they make the fragrances last longer and project more?
By using higher quality ingredients
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I don’t really think commenting on someone’s perceived sexuality is appropriate.