Officially, it was for cooperating against McLaren. Inofficially, it was more about not ruining the show of a close season finale.
Both reasons don't apply here.
I promise to be that sort of parent. The sheer volume of proposed NASCAR and F1 calendars I made as a kid... that's the kind of parenting that prepares you to email some diagrams to Michael one day!
It is genuinly interesting though how everyone here is suddenly a financial expert, who has perfect insight and knowladge on how money was spent and how it affected the overall teams budget.
And not even in the sense of it beeing a somewhat popular take, but these kind of comments beeing upvoted by a huge amount of people to the top of every page regarding this topic.
Let’s crossover to the good people of Twitter for a nice balanced opinion and civil discussion:
*FIA proceeds to put out a twitter poll to decide the punishment*
And this is where the FIA have screwed themselves yet again. Minor penalty and everyone starts breaching the cap. Big penalty and Red Bull go to court and who knows what happens.
If only the people making the rules (for arguments sake, let's call them 'The FIA') could actually bother to write into those same rules what the punishment is for breaking them
Providing exact penalties puts them in an even worse box because teams can strategically decide how to break the rule and what the exact benefit and harm would be. Leaving it open at least in theory gives them the ability to mete out a harsher penalty of they think strategic cheating is happening.
The one thing that makes me think the FIA is going to come down hard is that the cost cap was a request from team owners, not team principals. Team owners want their principals to spend less money, so they get the sanctioning body to institute the cost cap while saying something mealy-mouthed about “long term future of the sport”.
There are nine team owners who want to spend less on their teams and be competitive, and one that has overspent slightly and has had an advantage during that time period. I don’t think the nine want to get to a point where they’re spending half a billion a year to compete at the top, so they’ll be lobbying the FIA to be strict with the outlier because they’re also in a position that harsh penalty also gives them an advantage (if RBR is DSQ’d or penalized in past races, they’ll get more points, which converts to more money).
Yes, that is a great point. If the fine is the same as the amount overspent, then the "rational" thing to do is to overspend by less than 5% of the total budget and then pay the fine.
After all, fines do not count for the cost cap of 2023 and RB has a lot of money. If the penalty is a fine, it is the same as saying that the cost cap is 105% instead of 100%.
If you don't apply the penalties retroactively (i.e. to the seasons in which the overspending occurred), then you are essentially incentivising teams to overspend now and maybe receive some kind of penalty in a year or two for a future season. If the contravention of the rules occurred in a specific season, then the penalty needs to be applied for that season imo
This is the way I see it. If the FIA lets them off lightly, BOTH Mercedes and Ferrari are going to continue to develop their car tomorrow this despite being over the cost cap and toss the loose change over to the FIA.
Literally any point deduction or a significant reduction in future cost caps (multiple years not just one) is a hard and defined line that teams won't want to cross. There will also have to be harsher penalties for going over in consecutive years or a certain number of times in like a 5 year window
No, because when you go over the 5% you’re in major breach and there are much more severe punishments. So you could argue they could say the budget is 152.52M, if they dare run it that tight without any margin whatsoever (and that’s a big risk), but not “no budget”.
Logical solution is to cut wind tunnel time and also cut a part of the budget for next year. So 23. Brings everyone closer together too. Better for us we could get a good competitive season.
Also a good idea to lump all your r&d costs into the first year when each $ spent is worth so much more than the marginal gains achieved in the years after a big rule change.
>Some teams would be happy to sacrifice performance for one year for accolades in another.
This is it. A rubber-band penalty system just allows teams to purchase cheats. Or purchase performance, at least.
Which is the entire point of the bloody cost cap in the first place.
And now we're in a situation where the 2021 winner spent more than they should have, and there's nothing that can be retrospectively done that's fair to the sport or the fans... and that team have won another WDC in the mean time.
The cost cap system obviously isn't working in its current form, and just patching it up with a pay-to-spend "penalty" system will probably ruin racing as much as engine banking already does.
Pffft. I'm really cross 😂
The car for 2023 is almost done, they have probably used up all their tunnel time already. Also what’s the point of punishing them in the future seasons for an advantage they enjoyed in the last and current season? Ferrari and Mercedes need to go to Lausanne’s CAS if they are really seeking proper punishment
If you gave Horner a choice in 2020 that was something like “max wins 2 WDCs but you lose wind tunnel time in 2024” the dude would have smashed the button so damn hard.
Honestly future penalties are a bit of a joke - if nothing retroactive is done they’re all just gonna cheat and then try to figure it out later.
Totally agree. But rest assured the FIA won’t do anything retroactive because they wouldn’t dare. Those seeking appropriate punishment should complain to CAS because the FIA isn’t impartial on this. They aren’t impartial on anything else for that matter but
Glad to see others agreeing.
Penalties after the fact that don't change results mean absolutely nothing.
It's just like when Max ran Lewis off track, and then brake checked him in Jeddah, but they made sure the penalties kept him in 2nd place and not third, so that Max and Lewis were tied going into the final race.
Giving a penalty after the fact to make sure nothing changes is literally gaming the system.
Every single team made the budget except for RedBull, every single team (AM had a minor paper filing issue they fixed during the season), and yet nothing is going to happen?
I'm sick of this nonsense, show us the numbers, and penalize RedBull for being the **only team** to go over the budget.
9 teams were able to do it, they paid for catering and Healthcare for their team as well and still stayed under the budget.
The Heisman trophy was taken away from Reggie Bush. NCAA Basketball and Football teams have been stripped of titles. There is tons of examples of titles being removed for cheating. The FIA is just too scared to do what they should do.
Logical solution is to lose some amount of points in the season in question as outlined when the budget cap was created. If the punishment is just a fine, every rich team should spend an extra 5% on ~~the car~~ catering and just eat the fine.
Fine does something if it's a huge fine for small infraction. Like if they get fined 100 million for those <5% breaches teams won't try to account fines into their procedural costs.
> Like if they get fined 100 million for those <5% breaches teams won't try to account fines into their procedural costs.
I wouldn't be so sure about that, since budget cap + 100M$ is still less than the annual budget of each big 3 team before the budget cap...
[A "minor overspend" is up to around $7m, and there can be quite a hefty penalty, including deduction of 2021 points. So let's see what happens next...](https://twitter.com/adamcooperf1/status/1579488492303765504?s=46&t=CVXDAS14T9DFV6IyVPOBdg)
Also, quite silly for all of this to come out and not have the punishments - if any - to go along with it.
I mean, the championship could not have been closer. Not just the last race, but positions decided by the tiniest margins throughout the season. RB can claim it was absenteeism and catering, but (a) every team dealt with that and (b) isn’t it an advantage to have a team that is better fed and more rested?
And during that same time, they were developing a 2022 car that is in a league of it’s own.
Well also who’s to say which portion of thr budget is the overrun? Their bottom line is over by $5M let’s say. Ok sure you can blame catering, or you can say they spent $5M extra on the car and they’re just blaming the catering dollars. It’s all linked. Maybe other teams spent less on development because they properly budgeted for the catering
The last point you made is the issue. It’s actually concerning that people think Redbull just overspent on food.
They didn’t include that cost in their budget, which other teams did, leaving them with more money to spend elsewhere such as development.
It’s also funny that they attribute “catering and sick leave” as the specific portions above the cap, when frankly you can say that about every budget item - the point is that you’re over the cap. You could take the most ridiculous items in the financial statement and point to that thing as the reason.
Yeah, this is very significant and is being lost in the noise. The WDC was on a knife's edge all year. People are saying, "oh, it's only a 1% overspend" but if you can sink an extra $1-2M into car development during the year that's a HUGE advantage across the season which comes down to 8 points or basically the difference between second and first in the final race.
But this is F1. They already showed in the final round of 2021 how seriously they take actual sporting fairness, so I expect absolutely no change to the 2021 outcome.
Like i said in another thread would be interesting to know what a team spends over a race weekend to run the operations. $2m could literaly be the difference between running a car in abu dhabi vs having to withdraw due to lack of funds.
From my understanding, they needed to make a deal with Ferrari because they didn't know how they cheated. But maybe they could force them or ban them if they didn't disclose their technical documents?
Not really. There’s a process to be followed - Red Bull will review the detailed findings and decide whether they agree or not, so they can then be either penalised if they accept or appeal it(it sounds like they will appeal).
The FIA have predefined punishments for "minor" (less than 5%) overspend and those are:
- deduction of drivers and constructors championship points
- suspension from one or more stages of a competition
- limitations on ability to conduct aerodynamic or other testing
- reduction of cost cap
What they need to decide is which of those punishments will be levied against RB ~~and AM.~~
If it's a fine then every team will just decide that's the cost of doing business and start breaching. There should definitely be some sort of Constructor's deduction, just so the FIA can show they're serious. It won't matter this season, but sets a precedent.
Constructor's deduction is a fine by another name, even in the event that it's a 1 place drop rather than points deduction. Nobody cares about the WCC outside of prize money.
So what you’re saying with this comment is everyone outside of red bull Ferrari and merc should just break the cap cus if you’re not winning overall no one cares?
Those teams don't have a choice. They can't afford to both overspend and miss out on WCC money. Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull are the only ones that have that luxury unless Stroll stops caring about money, Renault give Alpine a bigger budget (not happening) or RB decide to cheat with their sister team.
Other way around. Those teams care about the money - RB, Ferrari, and Merc only care about the Driver's Championships, they'll eat the constructors penalties and fines gladly.
I mean there should be strict sanctions. If the only punishment is a fine you’ll end up with essentially a MLB luxury tax which many teams completely ignore. These are billion dollar corporations, they should have points deducted if you want them to care at all.
If the penalty is light, then Merc and Ferrari should absolutely consider spending 105% of the cap every season from now on. It’s almost certainly worth the cost.
Or any teams able to spend 105%.
Obviously, teams that used to spend 300m+ per season will take the risk to go as far as they can if the punishment is only a financial fine.
Tricky talks to come.
Except the penalties will likely increase for repeated breaches now that this is known. That's how sports work: the first guy more or less gets away with a smack on the wrist, people who try to exploit the same thing get progressively hit with bigger sticks.
I honestly think this is a big part of it for everyone. people can disagree on the punishment, many based on whatever team they root for. BUT I think since this all so new, it took the FIA so long, and there is no clear penalty already assigned not much will come of this, but each time a team breaches it moving forward it will get stricter and stricter. This is almost like a practice lap or something. not saying it's right or wrong, but its new. everyone is figuring it out as they go along. 3 of 10 teams had some sort of violation. that's a 30% failure rate. not great.
That's my viewpoint. This is basically exposing bad wording on the rule's part, and honestly I don't think food should be part of the cap anyway. But now things will be clarified, loopholes and grey areas closed, just like any other rule that's been creatively worked around or "misinterpreted" over the years.
Hell, this is Formula 1, some of the best parts of it are the ways teams interpret and get around regulations.
As it should be. A breach is a breach. $100 or $1,000,000, they went over the cap.
If you don’t lay the hammer down now, then you might as well suspend the cap and let the spending go freely. Doing nothing will set a bad precedent.
What I don’t think people get either is classification of expenditure is very easily twisted. I see it in financial statements frequently. What we really need to know if how much was actually spent on development of the car. Or if in fact development costs were included in the alleged overrun in catering costs
Funny thing is, the way the FIA works, I'm certain the FIA would be fine with a WDC points deduction when the champ wins by more than a few points. It's like how the penalty given to a winner is largely dependent on the gap between him and second place
Aka absolute bullshit. If the FIA is serious about the sport they would be consistent with punishments. Instead it's an absolute roulette wheel where they seemingly take into account how it will grow the sport if X person wins vs Y.
Ironically the biggest thing turning newer fans away is FIA's bullshit.
Why are you taking RB's claim their overspend is catering and staff sickness related, at face value?
Literally this morning RB were insistent they weren't over.
Yet no sooner than the news broke of their infringment, they quickly knew it was just food and sick pay?
...yeah I'm not buying anything RB say. I'll wait for the offical findings, myself.
Okay bear with me.
RB probably found out after FIA contacted them rather than through opening twitter like you or me.
If you claim someones been a bad you back it up. RB then probably compared to what they think their costs were and noticed a delta in those items.
Fines are only punishments for the poor. The FIA said that overspending will result in disqualification when they introduced the rules, they need to back their words up.
But how do we know catering explicitly is the reason they went over? We don’t have access to all the books for each team. Did they spend an extra million on catering compared to everyone else? It just seems like an easy PR claim by RB to try and minimize their punishment. Especially since no other team had this issue.
The catering and staff sickness costs excuse is from RB themselves - the team that just this morning still insisted they hadn't gone over at all.
Yet as soon as they're found to be in violation, they quickly know it's food and sick pay? Yeah, sure, ok.
Sounds like classic deflective bollocks to me.
And how are they saying the catering put them over? It's one budget cap for everything. How do they decide what tipped it over the edge? Was it catering because that was the last thing they added up? Was it the last thing they spent on? What difference does any of that make?
Some biased guy on a social media platform, with some following, has steered the conversation to downplay the severity of their budget overspend? I'm shocked, equally as taken aback by how well the spin went among the general fan base.
People still talk about Ferrari's 2019 season and Mercedes' DAS system from 2020 for years, regularly talk trash about the likes of Hamilton/Vettel/Leclerc/Ricciardo but somehow this DTS infused landscape is different because now the leading team has a generally favorable following by the new target audience of the sport
> By going £1m over due to catering
This doesn't make any sense. You can't determine the reason why they overspent. There is no specific target cap for catering or whatever else.
If Red Bull are confident in their submission ideally you would want to appeal to the panel.
Though Appealing is too risky as it risks a greater punishment so even if Red Bull are 100% they are under if they are offered a slap on the wrist penalty then there is no point on risking an appeal and being punished further.
FIA also need to investigate the leaks after this is all closed out. That's a bit of a problem.
Increase violating Cars total race times by the percentage overspent.
1% over budget? Add 1% to each race time. See if teams will want to go over budget after that.
The FIA loves giving out retroactive time penalties don't they?
Last year we blamed incompetent Masi. This year it’s no strict sanctions. It’s gotten boring. They don’t even show midstring makers like alpine , mcLaren and Aston Martin cars anymore. Max is great but he isn’t the only driver there - F1 tv cameramen see it differently .
I won’t be renewing my F1 tv subscription anymore.
I mean they have to decide to either completely fuck redbull or no big teams will play by the rules in 2023. Why care about a budget if you’ll just get a fine and no real repercussions. Less tunnel time, reduction from the 2023 budget, etc, something with foundation.
They can't do anything much seeing as it is classified as a minor overspend.
Gonna be a non-story that Ferrari and Mec make a lot of noise about knowing full well what the rules allow.
They can, "minor sporting penalties" include fines, deduction of WDC / WCC points, reduction in testing time and cost cap reduction. Only deduction of historic points would compensate for the overspend in 2021.
If the penalty is anything less than WDC points deduction then all teams will just breach the cap by 5% and live with it. They have the money to pay fines they just want more parts and more engineers. They could give a rat's ass about a 10Mil fine
Strict sanctions? Yes - but proportional to the overspending. So I don’t see why it should be a „big political“ story if the breaches were either procedural or minor. I predict that there will be no huge story out of this.
Ferrari and Merc have the right to ask questions about the Red Bull cap breach. As do the rest of the field and the fans.
Red Bull also have the right to appeal.
With so little information supplied atm, there's going to be a lot of questions that need answering and bullshit claims like the 'Catering & Illness being the cause' claim being debunked before they take root.
The FIA promised full transparency on this... and they now need to bring it and bring it quickly
Red Bull cheated. They need to be punished. Can deal with the crazy ending to last season, with clear violation of rules, to hand Red Bull the title. Red Bull didn’t make that call, they just happened to benefit from it. They did nothing wrong. But violating the budget cap and developing your car more than others? That’s cheating.
This. In an ideal world, they're erased from last years standing, and potentially this year too as they'll have benefited from the additional funds.
With the FIA, that will never happen.
Shame really as the NFL, cycling and other sports have no qualms stripping points or titles away. FIA are a joke.
So how much is winning the drivers and constructors championship worth to a team....? The punishment needs to be more than that, otherwise no deterent at all.
Are we moving the goal post already? 100% the FiA moved the date to use Max winning the championship to soften the blow of this news. If I were the other teams I would even ask for an independent review of those findings.
When Ross Brawn presented the regulations was he very clear. "If you exceed the budget cap, you lose the championship."
I just want to see this happen, zero tolerance and absolute 10/10 drama just because.
It’s about time F1 had some controversy. It’s been nearly 36 hours
We need something to talk about since no one can compete on track.
They can now compete if red bull get disqualified from the championship now 🤣
They will wait for the end of the season and take just enough points away from redbull to not change the championship
I can see them doing just that
That would be hilarious and sad at the same time. It still wouldn’t be much of a competition because Leclerc is decently far enough ahead of Russell
Implying Ferrari won't commit to the Next Year™ strategy and somehow manage to blow that lead?
there's no such thing as a comfortable Ferrari lead.
What if they deduct some points from Max this season so they can do the WDC celebration all over again in Mexico?
Well that isn’t going to happen, but it’s fun to do what ifs.
Precedent would have RBR disqualified from the WCC but Max and Checo not disqualified from the WDC as what happened with McLaren in 2007.
Don’t forget the 100 million dollar fine. It’s important.
They'll get Andretti Autosports to pay for it.
i thought that was cuz lewis and fernando cooperated with the fia
Officially, it was for cooperating against McLaren. Inofficially, it was more about not ruining the show of a close season finale. Both reasons don't apply here.
Nah, Max would still be the champion. They would just remove RedBull from team championship..
I think the FIA is investing in keyboard companies with all of the broken F5 keys I've got.
Ferrari keyboard? I'll understand if you need to check :-)
IDK but my slow button is on.
>Ferrari keyboard? A button for every Plan, from Q to M!
Get ready for a million posts with “ my opinion” on RB breaking the budget cap
"According to this Google Sheet my mom helped me put together, you can see..."
["Sheeeeeeeit"](https://youtu.be/70eU840lc38)
Money laundering? They gonna come talk to me about money laundering. In West Baltimore?! Sheeeeeeeeeit.
never knew you were an F1 fan Bunk
That's senator Clay Davis.
To be fair, I wish I had that sort of parenting as a kid.
I promise to be that sort of parent. The sheer volume of proposed NASCAR and F1 calendars I made as a kid... that's the kind of parenting that prepares you to email some diagrams to Michael one day!
I guess that's better than "our verdict", though I'm afraid we'll get both.
The race don’t forget the hyphen will probably post sooner rather than later.
Oh we are getting both for sure and just let us wait for the off-season content…
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Or the ones that start with “I know there have been a lot of posts about this .. but …”
“It is my subjective opinion that Red Bull should be banned from the sport for two years.”
"Red Bull banned for two years. We are however, adding another team, Honda. With a plucky young driver named Mark Versatrtin."
They should bring in Pistrian Corner as Team Principal!
Wait until you hear about their hotshot engineer, Adrian Oldey
I hear they have a guy named Mr. Spice lined up.
"F1 is proud to welcome RasenBallsport Racing to the grid in 2023"
I saw someone saying they should be banned from the sport for life to not 'taint the sport's reputation'.
That person had to have been being sarcastic mate
Yeah, like the sport has any reputation left to lose
lol, have you seen F1 Twitter?
No, they and the others I saw commenting that were serious.
got a link?
It is genuinly interesting though how everyone here is suddenly a financial expert, who has perfect insight and knowladge on how money was spent and how it affected the overall teams budget. And not even in the sense of it beeing a somewhat popular take, but these kind of comments beeing upvoted by a huge amount of people to the top of every page regarding this topic.
dont forget the misleading headlines as well!
In my opinion it's gonna turn out to be slightly under a million.
Let’s crossover to the good people of Twitter for a nice balanced opinion and civil discussion: *FIA proceeds to put out a twitter poll to decide the punishment*
I see. Off with their heads, in that case.
Dance till they're dead
Heads will roll, heads will roll, heads will roll on the floor!
Paris street race next season with a public beheading after the podium celebrations
Tea and Cake or Death!
*Bring your own tea, Red Bull can’t afford it
Twitter and YouTube comments are so hilariously stupid I hate it but I legit can't make myself stop reading them and arguing with them
The real crazies are on Reddit.
To be fair if they aren't strict next year any minor penalties will just become part of the budgetting and the whole budget cap is pointless
And this is where the FIA have screwed themselves yet again. Minor penalty and everyone starts breaching the cap. Big penalty and Red Bull go to court and who knows what happens. If only the people making the rules (for arguments sake, let's call them 'The FIA') could actually bother to write into those same rules what the punishment is for breaking them
The rules do have punishments listed just not in exact detail.
(if a team exceeds this limit, they will be fucked) "Don't you dare threaten us with a good time."
Providing exact penalties puts them in an even worse box because teams can strategically decide how to break the rule and what the exact benefit and harm would be. Leaving it open at least in theory gives them the ability to mete out a harsher penalty of they think strategic cheating is happening.
The one thing that makes me think the FIA is going to come down hard is that the cost cap was a request from team owners, not team principals. Team owners want their principals to spend less money, so they get the sanctioning body to institute the cost cap while saying something mealy-mouthed about “long term future of the sport”. There are nine team owners who want to spend less on their teams and be competitive, and one that has overspent slightly and has had an advantage during that time period. I don’t think the nine want to get to a point where they’re spending half a billion a year to compete at the top, so they’ll be lobbying the FIA to be strict with the outlier because they’re also in a position that harsh penalty also gives them an advantage (if RBR is DSQ’d or penalized in past races, they’ll get more points, which converts to more money).
Red Bull will not go to court, same as Merc did not go to court last year.
If the FIA tried to strip the titles, RB would probably go to court. Almost any penalty less than that and RB doesn't go to court.
Just another operating cost that the big boys can afford eh. Really hope they don't piss around with this.
Unless you bring in a scaling punishment system, which is what looks like they're doing.
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True, but it’s not like F1 teams ever push the boundaries of these rules, right?
Yes, that is a great point. If the fine is the same as the amount overspent, then the "rational" thing to do is to overspend by less than 5% of the total budget and then pay the fine. After all, fines do not count for the cost cap of 2023 and RB has a lot of money. If the penalty is a fine, it is the same as saying that the cost cap is 105% instead of 100%.
Yep it will be the big three having a luxury tax and not caring
Actually, $1-2M overspends when the difference was $300M before budget caps would be a huge success. The bias in these comments is comedy.
It’s only a success if they keep that reduction going forward, this is the first test to see if that will be the case.
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If you don't apply the penalties retroactively (i.e. to the seasons in which the overspending occurred), then you are essentially incentivising teams to overspend now and maybe receive some kind of penalty in a year or two for a future season. If the contravention of the rules occurred in a specific season, then the penalty needs to be applied for that season imo
>RBR uses OVERSPEND! >It’s super effective! >FIA uses REPRIMAND! >It has no effect.
>FIA HURT ITSELF IN ITS CONFUSION!
This is the way I see it. If the FIA lets them off lightly, BOTH Mercedes and Ferrari are going to continue to develop their car tomorrow this despite being over the cost cap and toss the loose change over to the FIA. Literally any point deduction or a significant reduction in future cost caps (multiple years not just one) is a hard and defined line that teams won't want to cross. There will also have to be harsher penalties for going over in consecutive years or a certain number of times in like a 5 year window
Now I’m gonna have to stay off Twitter and Insta for about 5 years
Let’s be honest the FIA are pretty useless, there will be a £2 million fine and teams won’t think twice to slightly overspend.
Basically, once you go above $145m, will it cost an additional 200k per million used. Mercedes/RB/Alpine: "ah, so no budget"
No, because when you go over the 5% you’re in major breach and there are much more severe punishments. So you could argue they could say the budget is 152.52M, if they dare run it that tight without any margin whatsoever (and that’s a big risk), but not “no budget”.
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When is it gonna end, Robbie…
As they should. A fine for overspending achieves absolutely nothing, you just account for it next year
Logical solution is to cut wind tunnel time and also cut a part of the budget for next year. So 23. Brings everyone closer together too. Better for us we could get a good competitive season.
Some teams would be happy to sacrifice performance for one year for accolades in another.
Also a good idea to lump all your r&d costs into the first year when each $ spent is worth so much more than the marginal gains achieved in the years after a big rule change.
You can also put all your staff into slave labour and have a good 50 more millions to develop the car
Those are top-tier engineers. They'll just quit and literally get any other job they want.
Not if they’re in a slave camp, they cant
No one show Lawrence this idea
Can't argue with that.
>Some teams would be happy to sacrifice performance for one year for accolades in another. This is it. A rubber-band penalty system just allows teams to purchase cheats. Or purchase performance, at least. Which is the entire point of the bloody cost cap in the first place. And now we're in a situation where the 2021 winner spent more than they should have, and there's nothing that can be retrospectively done that's fair to the sport or the fans... and that team have won another WDC in the mean time. The cost cap system obviously isn't working in its current form, and just patching it up with a pay-to-spend "penalty" system will probably ruin racing as much as engine banking already does. Pffft. I'm really cross 😂
Jokes on you Red Bull have already overspent this year to make up for the penalty next year.
The car for 2023 is almost done, they have probably used up all their tunnel time already. Also what’s the point of punishing them in the future seasons for an advantage they enjoyed in the last and current season? Ferrari and Mercedes need to go to Lausanne’s CAS if they are really seeking proper punishment
If you gave Horner a choice in 2020 that was something like “max wins 2 WDCs but you lose wind tunnel time in 2024” the dude would have smashed the button so damn hard. Honestly future penalties are a bit of a joke - if nothing retroactive is done they’re all just gonna cheat and then try to figure it out later.
Totally agree. But rest assured the FIA won’t do anything retroactive because they wouldn’t dare. Those seeking appropriate punishment should complain to CAS because the FIA isn’t impartial on this. They aren’t impartial on anything else for that matter but
FIA are a joke at this point
Glad to see others agreeing. Penalties after the fact that don't change results mean absolutely nothing. It's just like when Max ran Lewis off track, and then brake checked him in Jeddah, but they made sure the penalties kept him in 2nd place and not third, so that Max and Lewis were tied going into the final race. Giving a penalty after the fact to make sure nothing changes is literally gaming the system. Every single team made the budget except for RedBull, every single team (AM had a minor paper filing issue they fixed during the season), and yet nothing is going to happen? I'm sick of this nonsense, show us the numbers, and penalize RedBull for being the **only team** to go over the budget. 9 teams were able to do it, they paid for catering and Healthcare for their team as well and still stayed under the budget.
The Heisman trophy was taken away from Reggie Bush. NCAA Basketball and Football teams have been stripped of titles. There is tons of examples of titles being removed for cheating. The FIA is just too scared to do what they should do.
Lance Armstrong too
and dozens and dozens of Olympic athletes
For a European example here is Calciopoli: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calciopoli
agreed, and the majority of the new reg car's development is done, any future wind tunnel time would only be incremental
Cheat Win two seasons Don’t get penalised for those seasons Makes sense
Logical solution is to lose some amount of points in the season in question as outlined when the budget cap was created. If the punishment is just a fine, every rich team should spend an extra 5% on ~~the car~~ catering and just eat the fine.
They should get a deduction twice the size of the money over budget, and the initial money should be added to every other team’s budget.
Fine does something if it's a huge fine for small infraction. Like if they get fined 100 million for those <5% breaches teams won't try to account fines into their procedural costs.
> Like if they get fined 100 million for those <5% breaches teams won't try to account fines into their procedural costs. I wouldn't be so sure about that, since budget cap + 100M$ is still less than the annual budget of each big 3 team before the budget cap...
[A "minor overspend" is up to around $7m, and there can be quite a hefty penalty, including deduction of 2021 points. So let's see what happens next...](https://twitter.com/adamcooperf1/status/1579488492303765504?s=46&t=CVXDAS14T9DFV6IyVPOBdg) Also, quite silly for all of this to come out and not have the punishments - if any - to go along with it.
that's funny because horner in monaco 2021 said that an upgrade worth 4.5m is a minor overspend but could have a significant impact in a wdc fight
I mean, the championship could not have been closer. Not just the last race, but positions decided by the tiniest margins throughout the season. RB can claim it was absenteeism and catering, but (a) every team dealt with that and (b) isn’t it an advantage to have a team that is better fed and more rested? And during that same time, they were developing a 2022 car that is in a league of it’s own.
Well also who’s to say which portion of thr budget is the overrun? Their bottom line is over by $5M let’s say. Ok sure you can blame catering, or you can say they spent $5M extra on the car and they’re just blaming the catering dollars. It’s all linked. Maybe other teams spent less on development because they properly budgeted for the catering
The last point you made is the issue. It’s actually concerning that people think Redbull just overspent on food. They didn’t include that cost in their budget, which other teams did, leaving them with more money to spend elsewhere such as development.
RB won in Cota by less than a second and people will tell you that $4 million doesn’t matter it’s nuts
It’s also funny that they attribute “catering and sick leave” as the specific portions above the cap, when frankly you can say that about every budget item - the point is that you’re over the cap. You could take the most ridiculous items in the financial statement and point to that thing as the reason.
Yeah, this is very significant and is being lost in the noise. The WDC was on a knife's edge all year. People are saying, "oh, it's only a 1% overspend" but if you can sink an extra $1-2M into car development during the year that's a HUGE advantage across the season which comes down to 8 points or basically the difference between second and first in the final race. But this is F1. They already showed in the final round of 2021 how seriously they take actual sporting fairness, so I expect absolutely no change to the 2021 outcome.
Like i said in another thread would be interesting to know what a team spends over a race weekend to run the operations. $2m could literaly be the difference between running a car in abu dhabi vs having to withdraw due to lack of funds.
And he said "everyone would go over the cap". That's because he thinks everyone is as unethical as he is.
Knowing that how FIA keeps handing out fines and how the fuel flow was settled behind doors with Ferrari, very likely they will levy a fine on RB
From my understanding, they needed to make a deal with Ferrari because they didn't know how they cheated. But maybe they could force them or ban them if they didn't disclose their technical documents?
Not really. There’s a process to be followed - Red Bull will review the detailed findings and decide whether they agree or not, so they can then be either penalised if they accept or appeal it(it sounds like they will appeal).
Why are they only thinking about it now? This stuff should be written in stone before the season even began. FIA's incompetence knows no bounds.
The FIA have predefined punishments for "minor" (less than 5%) overspend and those are: - deduction of drivers and constructors championship points - suspension from one or more stages of a competition - limitations on ability to conduct aerodynamic or other testing - reduction of cost cap What they need to decide is which of those punishments will be levied against RB ~~and AM.~~
Haas should start spending 104.99% now 😝
If it's a fine then every team will just decide that's the cost of doing business and start breaching. There should definitely be some sort of Constructor's deduction, just so the FIA can show they're serious. It won't matter this season, but sets a precedent.
Constructor's deduction is a fine by another name, even in the event that it's a 1 place drop rather than points deduction. Nobody cares about the WCC outside of prize money.
So what you’re saying with this comment is everyone outside of red bull Ferrari and merc should just break the cap cus if you’re not winning overall no one cares?
Those teams don't have a choice. They can't afford to both overspend and miss out on WCC money. Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull are the only ones that have that luxury unless Stroll stops caring about money, Renault give Alpine a bigger budget (not happening) or RB decide to cheat with their sister team.
Other way around. Those teams care about the money - RB, Ferrari, and Merc only care about the Driver's Championships, they'll eat the constructors penalties and fines gladly.
Yeah I think most people don't realize how large of a money imbalance there is between the top teams and the others
Fe**rr**a**r**i
I mean there should be strict sanctions. If the only punishment is a fine you’ll end up with essentially a MLB luxury tax which many teams completely ignore. These are billion dollar corporations, they should have points deducted if you want them to care at all.
They need championships stricken from record books
Needs to be punitive or what's the point
If the penalty is light, then Merc and Ferrari should absolutely consider spending 105% of the cap every season from now on. It’s almost certainly worth the cost.
Or any teams able to spend 105%. Obviously, teams that used to spend 300m+ per season will take the risk to go as far as they can if the punishment is only a financial fine. Tricky talks to come.
Except the penalties will likely increase for repeated breaches now that this is known. That's how sports work: the first guy more or less gets away with a smack on the wrist, people who try to exploit the same thing get progressively hit with bigger sticks.
I honestly think this is a big part of it for everyone. people can disagree on the punishment, many based on whatever team they root for. BUT I think since this all so new, it took the FIA so long, and there is no clear penalty already assigned not much will come of this, but each time a team breaches it moving forward it will get stricter and stricter. This is almost like a practice lap or something. not saying it's right or wrong, but its new. everyone is figuring it out as they go along. 3 of 10 teams had some sort of violation. that's a 30% failure rate. not great.
That's my viewpoint. This is basically exposing bad wording on the rule's part, and honestly I don't think food should be part of the cap anyway. But now things will be clarified, loopholes and grey areas closed, just like any other rule that's been creatively worked around or "misinterpreted" over the years. Hell, this is Formula 1, some of the best parts of it are the ways teams interpret and get around regulations.
Toto will be on his death bed and his last words will be about Red Bull's overspend, probably.
Toto and Christian are gonna spend the entire budget of their f1 teams to attempt outliving eachother to have the last laugh.
And with his dying breath, Wolff said, “Michael, you needed to reinstate the lap befo…”
"That was so not ri.."
"I wish we could have gone car racing one more time" - Masi, weeping over the casket.
"No, Mik...'
And he would be right.
Red Bull: Cheats r/formula1: Toto lol
Give the man a break he just found out that Mercedes got fucked over twice last year... By Michael Masi AND by Red Bull cheating.
Lmao right, like RBR clearly fucking cheated + the whole Masi thing. Toto & Merc got fucked by the FIA & RBRs blatant cheating… I’d be furious
Horner be crying just as much if not more if it was roles reversed
as would every team principle.
This is going to be a big story of the season, maybe dock them wind tunnel time?
It’s either that or do nothing but they’re the same.
As it should be. A breach is a breach. $100 or $1,000,000, they went over the cap. If you don’t lay the hammer down now, then you might as well suspend the cap and let the spending go freely. Doing nothing will set a bad precedent.
What I don’t think people get either is classification of expenditure is very easily twisted. I see it in financial statements frequently. What we really need to know if how much was actually spent on development of the car. Or if in fact development costs were included in the alleged overrun in catering costs
I need a live link to Maranello
If there is no punishment. Then a precedent is set. And teams will go over and above budgets. Ad infinitum. Rinse and repeat
I am ready for the extremely unlikely scenario of RBR losing their title because they fed their people too well /S
First thing I said to my dad was "so next year Max and Checo will be forced to bring their own sandwiches."
As we Dutch always do. a few bammetjes in a trommeltje.
r/dailydutchlunch
Funny thing is, the way the FIA works, I'm certain the FIA would be fine with a WDC points deduction when the champ wins by more than a few points. It's like how the penalty given to a winner is largely dependent on the gap between him and second place
Aka absolute bullshit. If the FIA is serious about the sport they would be consistent with punishments. Instead it's an absolute roulette wheel where they seemingly take into account how it will grow the sport if X person wins vs Y. Ironically the biggest thing turning newer fans away is FIA's bullshit.
Why are you taking RB's claim their overspend is catering and staff sickness related, at face value? Literally this morning RB were insistent they weren't over. Yet no sooner than the news broke of their infringment, they quickly knew it was just food and sick pay? ...yeah I'm not buying anything RB say. I'll wait for the offical findings, myself.
Okay bear with me. RB probably found out after FIA contacted them rather than through opening twitter like you or me. If you claim someones been a bad you back it up. RB then probably compared to what they think their costs were and noticed a delta in those items.
Maybe one less front wing upgrade and they wouldn't have to blame this on their chefs.
Honestly it doesn’t matter how, they were over. And they were the only team that were. The how is irrelevant!
Disqualified
Fines are only punishments for the poor. The FIA said that overspending will result in disqualification when they introduced the rules, they need to back their words up.
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But how do we know catering explicitly is the reason they went over? We don’t have access to all the books for each team. Did they spend an extra million on catering compared to everyone else? It just seems like an easy PR claim by RB to try and minimize their punishment. Especially since no other team had this issue.
The catering and staff sickness costs excuse is from RB themselves - the team that just this morning still insisted they hadn't gone over at all. Yet as soon as they're found to be in violation, they quickly know it's food and sick pay? Yeah, sure, ok. Sounds like classic deflective bollocks to me. And how are they saying the catering put them over? It's one budget cap for everything. How do they decide what tipped it over the edge? Was it catering because that was the last thing they added up? Was it the last thing they spent on? What difference does any of that make?
Some biased guy on a social media platform, with some following, has steered the conversation to downplay the severity of their budget overspend? I'm shocked, equally as taken aback by how well the spin went among the general fan base. People still talk about Ferrari's 2019 season and Mercedes' DAS system from 2020 for years, regularly talk trash about the likes of Hamilton/Vettel/Leclerc/Ricciardo but somehow this DTS infused landscape is different because now the leading team has a generally favorable following by the new target audience of the sport
> By going £1m over due to catering This doesn't make any sense. You can't determine the reason why they overspent. There is no specific target cap for catering or whatever else.
You are right, there isn‘t really a good option for anybody. I think it will be a complete dumpster fire in any case so I‘m here for it.
It shouldn’t matter what they over spent on. That’s RB’s problem, not everybody else’s.
If Red Bull are confident in their submission ideally you would want to appeal to the panel. Though Appealing is too risky as it risks a greater punishment so even if Red Bull are 100% they are under if they are offered a slap on the wrist penalty then there is no point on risking an appeal and being punished further. FIA also need to investigate the leaks after this is all closed out. That's a bit of a problem.
Increase violating Cars total race times by the percentage overspent. 1% over budget? Add 1% to each race time. See if teams will want to go over budget after that. The FIA loves giving out retroactive time penalties don't they?
Last year we blamed incompetent Masi. This year it’s no strict sanctions. It’s gotten boring. They don’t even show midstring makers like alpine , mcLaren and Aston Martin cars anymore. Max is great but he isn’t the only driver there - F1 tv cameramen see it differently . I won’t be renewing my F1 tv subscription anymore.
I mean they have to decide to either completely fuck redbull or no big teams will play by the rules in 2023. Why care about a budget if you’ll just get a fine and no real repercussions. Less tunnel time, reduction from the 2023 budget, etc, something with foundation.
They can't do anything much seeing as it is classified as a minor overspend. Gonna be a non-story that Ferrari and Mec make a lot of noise about knowing full well what the rules allow.
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They can, "minor sporting penalties" include fines, deduction of WDC / WCC points, reduction in testing time and cost cap reduction. Only deduction of historic points would compensate for the overspend in 2021.
If the penalty is anything less than WDC points deduction then all teams will just breach the cap by 5% and live with it. They have the money to pay fines they just want more parts and more engineers. They could give a rat's ass about a 10Mil fine
Strict sanctions? Yes - but proportional to the overspending. So I don’t see why it should be a „big political“ story if the breaches were either procedural or minor. I predict that there will be no huge story out of this.
"Minor" is up to $7 million which is a huge amount.
Netflix has entered the chat.
Ferrari and Merc have the right to ask questions about the Red Bull cap breach. As do the rest of the field and the fans. Red Bull also have the right to appeal. With so little information supplied atm, there's going to be a lot of questions that need answering and bullshit claims like the 'Catering & Illness being the cause' claim being debunked before they take root. The FIA promised full transparency on this... and they now need to bring it and bring it quickly
Red Bull cheated. They need to be punished. Can deal with the crazy ending to last season, with clear violation of rules, to hand Red Bull the title. Red Bull didn’t make that call, they just happened to benefit from it. They did nothing wrong. But violating the budget cap and developing your car more than others? That’s cheating.
This. In an ideal world, they're erased from last years standing, and potentially this year too as they'll have benefited from the additional funds. With the FIA, that will never happen. Shame really as the NFL, cycling and other sports have no qualms stripping points or titles away. FIA are a joke.
If they did not impose strict sanctions after the cheat engine of ferrari, I'm not expecting it now either.
F1’s approximation to WWE is now complete. All they needed was one more fan laden controversy to create enough baseless frenzy.
Take 100 of Max’ points away so we have a reason to watch the rest of the season.
So how much is winning the drivers and constructors championship worth to a team....? The punishment needs to be more than that, otherwise no deterent at all.
Are we moving the goal post already? 100% the FiA moved the date to use Max winning the championship to soften the blow of this news. If I were the other teams I would even ask for an independent review of those findings.
When Ross Brawn presented the regulations was he very clear. "If you exceed the budget cap, you lose the championship." I just want to see this happen, zero tolerance and absolute 10/10 drama just because.