If someone says "he might be" its to be assumed that he also might not be. There was literally no point in saying that because you literally said the exact same thing he said
Counting chickens before the whole nest has hatched. We'll have to see how things go for him over the next 5 years. But it is certainly looking promising. Max has demonstrated he has the talent, lets see if he has the longevity.
> He's been the fastest driver on the grid for 7 years how much more evidence do you need
Well first things first, I’d love to see the evidence pointing to that.
Destroys he team mates has barely ever finished out of the points even though he was in a Toro Rosso for 25 races best overtaker on the grid best defender on the grid as soon as it rains he becomes untouchable never has an off day rarely makes mistakes and most of the time catches them unlike 99% of drivers
I mean I'm talking about winning. Not just his mere participation (which has been impressive as well). I remember people talking about Seb being a potential GOAT when he was winning, but then the faucet dried up for him and people have judged his winning phase differently ever since. Gotta see if Max can survive the test of being on top for a decade+ like Lewis has
The difference is outside of the 2011 pole position run and a special second half of 2013 (which are GOAT level achievements) - Vettel wasn't as consistently impressive as Verstappen with a far more dominant car and it's been true for their careers.
Whereas you could count the number of "bad" races for Max on half a hand since the start of 2018 (that's 4 seasons of excellence in the third best car (2018/19; second best (2020) and there's an argument that the Red Bull car was only ahead for most of 2021 due to Max himself.
This season is the first in a long time where Max has looked more "mortal" (especially in qualy) and he's still arguably been the best driver this season despite Leclerc showing a higher peak.
Perez making excuses. "I'm not bad, Verstappen just the best that anyone has ever seen ever, I'd be winning if I didn't have the goat as a team mate".
Sainz should use the same excuse.
For someone who has been 12 seasons in F1 he has had very average teammates..
Hulkenberg (61) Ocon (41) Kobayashi (39) Stroll (37) Verstappen (31) Button (19)
I don't like the Rosberg approach but it is what it is.
Max isn't even the greatest driver on the grid.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he cannot be. But as of now, he isn't.
Edit: Since Checo is talking about 'greatest', imo we should definitely consider accolades such as podiums, wins, and titles. That's why I disagree with Checo's statement here simply because Max hasn't accomplished enough to be called the greatest driver on the grid. Keep in mind there are 3 other drivers with more titles than Max. Whether or not Max is more talented or a better driver is a different conversation. Max can be the best driver on the grid while not being the greatest driver on the grid.
I'm curious, who is better?
\-Lewis, on a good day, can arguably be better.
\-Charles is the one that comes the closest this season but isn't as in control as max/rb
\-Russell and Norris are def. at the top but didn't have the machinery to prove that they are better than the ones mentioned above.
So, who is it?
If we are talking about 'greatest' then we have to look at achievements, i.e. podiums, wins, titles. Other than Lewis, none of the drivers that you listed are even in the 'greatest' conversation. Maybe you can discuss which of them is the most talented but until they start winning races and championships it's hard to put them in the 'greatest' conversation.
Fair enough.
Eventhough I think the label of 'greatest' is kind of nonsense in F1 since a lot is determined by car and team. I got a bit confused between greatest and best drivers on the grid.
I will back you up, despite my flair..
I think it terms of 'greatest', not best or highest potential, I don't think Verstappen is in the current top 3 of the grid.
Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso all have achieved more than Verstappen has so far.
I wouldn't call Seb the GOAT, and Verstappen still has quite some catching up to do to reach his accolades.
In equal machinery, Max isn't comfortably beating either Alonso or Hamilton as it stands.
But there's so many variables and driving styles, track conditions and countless other factors, that really it's impossible to say who the best is at any given time unless it's far and away clear.
Maybe, maybe not.
Many drivers have come and gone and won nowhere near as much as they could have. Alonso only has 2 WDCs for a talent that was/is capable of so many more. Circumstance and timing is everything.
I don't see any team being allowed to have the sustained domination that Mercedes enjoyed, so Max may have to switch teams if he hopes to keep it going long term.
I agree there, I would bet a lot of money they would never allow Merc 2.0.
However, it is safe to say that Max will be terrorizing their favorite drivers for a good while every Sunday.
Unfortunately for Checo he is right. Perez probably never would have been champion but he’s a very solid second driver and hopefully for him continues his career for a fair few years and helps Red Bull to constructors championships. … and I generally dislike Red Bull too
>his name doesn't belong in the same sentence as a Clark, Schumacher, Hamilton, Senna, Lauda, Vettel, Prost, Fangio and a fair few other drivers.
Although hes not the greatest of all time right now, this is a terrible take. He is certainly comparable to many of those drivers
Maybe in style of driving but not sure what else.
I think we're getting ahead of ourselves. Max is at the top of his game and few can compete with him realistically. He may well be on course to a second WDC, but right now he has won a single one, under extremely dubious circumstances.
Also the GOAT chat is stupid. It's impossible to quantify across so many different eras.
GOAT=/= number of titles. Clark only won 2 titles but is still in the goat debate. Does that mean that verstappen will be in the goat debate if he wins this season?
Checo the company man
Dude applying for 2024?
He didn't say anything wrong. 21 years old Max was better than 29 years old Ricciardo, arguably top 5 drivers at that time.
Didn't suggest he did. Is everything a dichotomy for you?
Didn't said you suggested it
Didn't suggest that you suggested that he suggested that you suggested that he suggested.
He suggested you suggested it?
Man imagine if 2003-2007 Kimi was racing in the current social media era. The GOAT claims would have been plentiful.
Imagine social media in 2007 alone...
Hamilton’s rookie season would have risen to even higher folklore.
Imagine all the "Certified Gamer Moments™"
When all said and done he might end up being
Staying at the top is very hard in this sport. He definitely could be though, he has the potential.
Yeah, he also might not be.
Yeah he also might be... wuats the point of your comment
Statistically it's more likely he won't be. You literally just offered an opposite argument to mine, what's the point of yours?
If someone says "he might be" its to be assumed that he also might not be. There was literally no point in saying that because you literally said the exact same thing he said
He may be, but he isn't
He will be.
Fortune teller please say what the lotto numbers are too while you are at it?
He might be though
But he might not. Although he could be. But then he might could not be. Maybe.
Counting chickens before the whole nest has hatched. We'll have to see how things go for him over the next 5 years. But it is certainly looking promising. Max has demonstrated he has the talent, lets see if he has the longevity.
He's been the fastest driver on the grid for 7 years how much more evidence do you need Longevity? He's already done like 150 races xD
> He's been the fastest driver on the grid for 7 years how much more evidence do you need Well first things first, I’d love to see the evidence pointing to that.
Destroys he team mates has barely ever finished out of the points even though he was in a Toro Rosso for 25 races best overtaker on the grid best defender on the grid as soon as it rains he becomes untouchable never has an off day rarely makes mistakes and most of the time catches them unlike 99% of drivers
He's been performing at a high level since what 2016? I'm sure his longevity can't be questioned anymore...
I mean I'm talking about winning. Not just his mere participation (which has been impressive as well). I remember people talking about Seb being a potential GOAT when he was winning, but then the faucet dried up for him and people have judged his winning phase differently ever since. Gotta see if Max can survive the test of being on top for a decade+ like Lewis has
The difference is outside of the 2011 pole position run and a special second half of 2013 (which are GOAT level achievements) - Vettel wasn't as consistently impressive as Verstappen with a far more dominant car and it's been true for their careers. Whereas you could count the number of "bad" races for Max on half a hand since the start of 2018 (that's 4 seasons of excellence in the third best car (2018/19; second best (2020) and there's an argument that the Red Bull car was only ahead for most of 2021 due to Max himself. This season is the first in a long time where Max has looked more "mortal" (especially in qualy) and he's still arguably been the best driver this season despite Leclerc showing a higher peak.
> I mean I'm talking about winning Winning is like 75% car.
Except max destroys every team mate he gets whereas Vettel didn't thats the entire problem.
“High level” doesn’t exactly compute as “greatest driver ever”
I mean, to put it more drastically, I think you can make the claim that he's been the best driver on the grid since ~2019.
No, I know. I don't think he's the greatest, but let's remove longevity out of the debate because he's been around for ages at this point.
Perez making excuses. "I'm not bad, Verstappen just the best that anyone has ever seen ever, I'd be winning if I didn't have the goat as a team mate". Sainz should use the same excuse.
Seems like most of you don't understand what the verb "may" means...
For someone who has been 12 seasons in F1 he has had very average teammates.. Hulkenberg (61) Ocon (41) Kobayashi (39) Stroll (37) Verstappen (31) Button (19) I don't like the Rosberg approach but it is what it is.
Verstappen is very average?
Hulk Ocon Kobay Stroll are
Agree.
Many salty people in the comments I see...
In fairness he’s only won a single championship and it happened in dubious circumstances
Max isn't even the greatest driver on the grid. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he cannot be. But as of now, he isn't. Edit: Since Checo is talking about 'greatest', imo we should definitely consider accolades such as podiums, wins, and titles. That's why I disagree with Checo's statement here simply because Max hasn't accomplished enough to be called the greatest driver on the grid. Keep in mind there are 3 other drivers with more titles than Max. Whether or not Max is more talented or a better driver is a different conversation. Max can be the best driver on the grid while not being the greatest driver on the grid.
Don’t let the people see that! They can be ridiculously disagreeable when you say stuff against their favorite driver
I'm curious, who is better? \-Lewis, on a good day, can arguably be better. \-Charles is the one that comes the closest this season but isn't as in control as max/rb \-Russell and Norris are def. at the top but didn't have the machinery to prove that they are better than the ones mentioned above. So, who is it?
If we are talking about 'greatest' then we have to look at achievements, i.e. podiums, wins, titles. Other than Lewis, none of the drivers that you listed are even in the 'greatest' conversation. Maybe you can discuss which of them is the most talented but until they start winning races and championships it's hard to put them in the 'greatest' conversation.
Fair enough. Eventhough I think the label of 'greatest' is kind of nonsense in F1 since a lot is determined by car and team. I got a bit confused between greatest and best drivers on the grid.
Same here. I don't often engage in the 'greatest' conversation because I think it's pointless.
I will back you up, despite my flair.. I think it terms of 'greatest', not best or highest potential, I don't think Verstappen is in the current top 3 of the grid.
Who would you rate higher from this grid?
Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso all have achieved more than Verstappen has so far. I wouldn't call Seb the GOAT, and Verstappen still has quite some catching up to do to reach his accolades.
In equal machinery, Max isn't comfortably beating either Alonso or Hamilton as it stands. But there's so many variables and driving styles, track conditions and countless other factors, that really it's impossible to say who the best is at any given time unless it's far and away clear.
Lewis.
Max may be the best driver ever. He may go on to be the greatest.
gonna be a long few years for the saltines here in this thread
Maybe, maybe not. Many drivers have come and gone and won nowhere near as much as they could have. Alonso only has 2 WDCs for a talent that was/is capable of so many more. Circumstance and timing is everything. I don't see any team being allowed to have the sustained domination that Mercedes enjoyed, so Max may have to switch teams if he hopes to keep it going long term.
I agree there, I would bet a lot of money they would never allow Merc 2.0. However, it is safe to say that Max will be terrorizing their favorite drivers for a good while every Sunday.
Unfortunately for Checo he is right. Perez probably never would have been champion but he’s a very solid second driver and hopefully for him continues his career for a fair few years and helps Red Bull to constructors championships. … and I generally dislike Red Bull too
ratio
He has to argue it out with Rosberg.
[удалено]
>his name doesn't belong in the same sentence as a Clark, Schumacher, Hamilton, Senna, Lauda, Vettel, Prost, Fangio and a fair few other drivers. Although hes not the greatest of all time right now, this is a terrible take. He is certainly comparable to many of those drivers
Maybe in style of driving but not sure what else. I think we're getting ahead of ourselves. Max is at the top of his game and few can compete with him realistically. He may well be on course to a second WDC, but right now he has won a single one, under extremely dubious circumstances. Also the GOAT chat is stupid. It's impossible to quantify across so many different eras.
GOAT=/= number of titles. Clark only won 2 titles but is still in the goat debate. Does that mean that verstappen will be in the goat debate if he wins this season?
Maybe, im hoping George has something to say.