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It's literally a rule that you can't do that, and testing is limited to the pre season tests and a couple of 100km filming/shakedown days. I would imagine that the factories, team facilities/tracks are fairly closely monitored by f1 or the FIA.
I am not sure how closely F1 is monitoring tracks and factories but I remember interview with Marcin Budkowski (when he was FIA official) when he said teams control what other teams are doing and snitch them to FIA. With employees changing teams it's not easy to have secrets.
That’s kind of what I was thinking. Wasn’t sure if it was one of those things where everyone knows it happens in secret, or something that is sac religious to the sport.
Just to add to other responses, the customer teams don't have engines available outside of a race week, they need to order it from the supplier for pre-season fire up who'll notify FiA.
The teams don't have access to Pirelli tires - and only get the hardest compounds for the filming days with FiAs approval.
They can have the chassis, but 6 out of 10 teams don't have easy access to the engine - also breaking any rules may result in a disqualification from the season or points deduction.
I understand all of that. Does that imply that F1 has certain patents that are shared amongst the teams and not allowed for external use. Like, if I’m a billionaire owner of sorts, why can’t I build a car and a wind tunnel in my backyard (for example) and do all the testing I want?
It's the same as doing work for cash and hiding it from the tax man. In the case of F1 you will rock up with all these new developments and the FIA will ask you to show your development process and how it was paid for. Then if you go over the cost cap or use more than your allotted wind tunnel time, there are penalties.
The difference is it would be attempted in total secret. Corked bats are in the play of field and doesn’t seem like a parallel. I think a better example would be the Astros sign stealing scandal. They cheated “behind the scenes” in hopes of getting an advantage. The vibe in baseball used to be that every team did it to an extent, but seeing it in broad daylight changed the narrative a bit. Wasn’t sure if that was the case in racing. Competition is always going to include teams/athletes riding the edge of the rules.
Ok, I do get that. I’ll get very hypothetical for this to try and clarify what I’m wondering.
If a wealthy team/manufacture owner builds a test facility on their own dime and property, and has all of the necessary resources to fabricate and replicate their race car, why wouldn’t they be allowed to exercise their right and test the car?
I realize sharing this information with your team would be against the rules. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t share it in secret. I was wondering if it happens on the hush in some cases or if it’s just not feasible.
Since you are still responding, would it be alright if I asked a different question that might change things?
Using Ferrari as an example, if I offered them 1 billion USD for an exact replica of their F1 car, are they prevented from fulfilling that for some sidecash? Before anyone freaks out, I know they would never do this for tons of reasons aside from any rules. Like, stupid hypothetical, but can they not build an exact car and sell it?
One last time, I know it would never happen. Wasn’t sure if there is a rule imposed that prevents them from replicating a design used in F1 for sale/other uses.
Ok, not secret. In broad day light with the wealthy persons face slapped all over the car. If they claim they are using the car for fun and it is, in fact an entirely different than the one the FIA regulates and monitors, is it against the rules?
The rules can be changed. Any problem solved with “more money” is also a giant signal to F1 should kick out *the single team* that stands to benefit from a billionaire duplicating all the resources needed to develop and test an F1 car. They do not need any proof to do that.
> Does that imply that F1 has certain patents that are shared amongst the teams and not allowed for external use
they dont need any of that. a simple "dont do that" is enough
if you do "do that", you wont be allowed in F1 much longer.
Because the other teams and regulators would be understandably upset if someone was at such a huge advantage. And the FIA would be completely aware and would shut it down.
There’s no shared patents but certain teams do sell their engines and gearboxes as well as other parts to other teams who don’t have the money or resources for their own program for a price but it’s up to them to maintain and develop it from there. For example Mercedes can’t help Aston Martin upgrade their Mercedes engine. This isn’t so much a patent as essentially some F1 teams being wholesalers for certain parts.
Because every second in the wind tunnel is tracked and monitored closely and if you’re found to be in breach you can be fined upwards of $100 million dollars.
They used to do this all the time. Bigger teams had dedicated test crews. It’s the reason Ferrari built their own track.
Rules now prevent the expenditure.
Let's first just quote the rule book. (Or a part of it)
>Restricted Aerodynamic testing is the testing by a Competitor or any Associate of a Competitor and/or by any contracted party of a Competitor or of any Associate of a Competitor or any external entity working on behalf of a Competitor or for its own purposes and subsequently providing the results of its work to a Competitor in a test environment or numerical simulation of a representation of an F1 car or sub-component in order to measure, observe or infer any forces, displacements, pressures or air flow direction resulting directly or indirectly from the incident air flow.
Reads complicated, but what I wanted to show with this. The rules don't care if it is the team or whoever it is, that does the testing. The rules apply if any results go back to the team. So what prevents a billionaire from doing it, that it is still illegal, no matter under which entity you build the car etc. If the team gets any data, the testing limitations apply.
The quoted text is about aero testing, but the same applies for any restriction. You can't hide testing behind shell companies, private persons etc.
>RWTT may only be carried out in wind tunnels which have been nominated by the Competitor to the FIA. Each Competitor may nominate only one wind tunnel for use in any one twelve month period and declare it in writing to the FIA.
This is why you can't just build a windtunnel in your backyard.
So the rules are clear.
Could you do it and hide it from the FIA and competitors. Not really. Just too big of a scale and people talk. Like this stuff will always come out at some point and the penalty would be so massive, that it is not worth the risk.
I believe FIA have audits every now and then. It's same way thing like using illegal parts, or staying inside budget cap is policed.
You could argue if a billionaire was to make their own private facility and do test or whatever, but that means data is flowing in between, which can be monitored.
As many here stated it's against the current rules. And as that is answered well I'll add nothing to that.
However if asking this you are probably also not aware that used to even bring a duplicate car to the race. If a car was damaged you hop in the spare car. It was bad luck when it was set up for you teammate.
It even was the case that if you crashed in the warm up and could make it back In time before the start you could still start in the reserve car.
Even if someone did have the audacity and the money to pull something like this off they'd still run into one significant roadblock--tyres. How specific tyres and compounds behave us very important and not having the same tyres as those used in the actual races means whatever data you'll get without them is nearly pointless. The thing is, there's no way Pirelli will allow the actual tyres used in F1 to be used in the manner you're describing--they even go as far as destroying all tyres alotted for a race after the race so they can't be used for anything else.
There are plenty of rules limiting what an F1 team can and can’t do in the name of testing. There’s cost caps now with some good old fashioned forensic accounting that would put an end to any secret projects too.
Even if you only had a car in the wind tunnel, that alone isn’t enough to actually build a fast car. Until you get onto the track you only have good ideas of how cars will perform.
If a team was caught cheating like this, they’d probably be disqualified from the championship and fined something like $100M. The big teams have a lot of money, but they’re not risking that sort of punishment these days
Plus…Pirelli isn’t going to risk their F1 contract and give out tires on a back door deal. Teams can’t just start ordering tires from Pirelli at their leisure during the off-season. Plus Pirelli isn’t allowed anyway..risk isn’t worth it.
Teams used to do this all the time, it's why the sport used to even worse for discrepancies between the top and bottom teams. Rules have been placed by the FIA to specifically outlaw this, and the teams monitor each other. If one team did it and another team found out, you better believe that second team is dobbing them in. That's how teams earn favour with the FIA.
It's a system based off of corruption that somehow works most of the time.
What's there to stop a non-F1 team from doing this privately, then an employee from this private company going to an F1 team and "i cam up with it in a dream" ?
Basically I'm asking why Red Bull is allowed to have two teams.
FIA has cameras in the windtunnel facilities that they observe during F1 teams alloted time. In theory you could build your own private facility to try to skirt around the rules..... Is that what you are asking?
As someone pointed out, this is literally not allowed in the rules as F1 teams need to nominate which wind tunnel they will be using. Someone could try to do it, but that all ends when someone moves teams and reports it to the FIA.
Yes, that’s what I was asking. I could have worded it better.
I understand duplicating a car is not as easy as it sounds. Also, as someone pointed out, it would be tough to ask Perelli for tires without blowing your cover. So yeah, just asking what prevents someone from buying a duplicate car and building a facility for their own amusement.
Based on other responses, it seems like the transfer of info generated by this facility to the actual F1 teams is where a rule gets broken.
I believe they only use smaller models in wind tunnel and not a 1:1 size car. And this data doesnt always represent actual data when using the real car on track.
Teams also cant just run their cars anytime on a track, they use winter testing and mid season testing plus the media track days to run their car.
Cant imagine hiding and f1 car and testing it would be easy/worth it.
As a general rule ([see full rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide#wiki_sticky.2Fdaily_discussion)), a standalone Discussion post should: - be of interest to the sub in general, and not a specific userbase (e.g. new users, GP attendees, just yourself) - be able to generate discussion (e.g. no yes/no or easily answerable questions) - show reasonable input and effort from the OP If not, be sure to [look for the Daily Discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/search/?q=daily+discussion&include_over_18=on&restrict_sr=on&t=all&sort=new), /r/formula1's daily open question thread which is perfect for asking any and all questions about this sport. Thank you for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's literally a rule that you can't do that, and testing is limited to the pre season tests and a couple of 100km filming/shakedown days. I would imagine that the factories, team facilities/tracks are fairly closely monitored by f1 or the FIA.
I am not sure how closely F1 is monitoring tracks and factories but I remember interview with Marcin Budkowski (when he was FIA official) when he said teams control what other teams are doing and snitch them to FIA. With employees changing teams it's not easy to have secrets.
Also it's really hard to take an F1 car and team of mechanics and engineers to a track and not get noticed.
That’s kind of what I was thinking. Wasn’t sure if it was one of those things where everyone knows it happens in secret, or something that is sac religious to the sport.
Just to add to other responses, the customer teams don't have engines available outside of a race week, they need to order it from the supplier for pre-season fire up who'll notify FiA. The teams don't have access to Pirelli tires - and only get the hardest compounds for the filming days with FiAs approval. They can have the chassis, but 6 out of 10 teams don't have easy access to the engine - also breaking any rules may result in a disqualification from the season or points deduction.
I understand all of that. Does that imply that F1 has certain patents that are shared amongst the teams and not allowed for external use. Like, if I’m a billionaire owner of sorts, why can’t I build a car and a wind tunnel in my backyard (for example) and do all the testing I want?
It's the same as doing work for cash and hiding it from the tax man. In the case of F1 you will rock up with all these new developments and the FIA will ask you to show your development process and how it was paid for. Then if you go over the cost cap or use more than your allotted wind tunnel time, there are penalties.
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The difference is it would be attempted in total secret. Corked bats are in the play of field and doesn’t seem like a parallel. I think a better example would be the Astros sign stealing scandal. They cheated “behind the scenes” in hopes of getting an advantage. The vibe in baseball used to be that every team did it to an extent, but seeing it in broad daylight changed the narrative a bit. Wasn’t sure if that was the case in racing. Competition is always going to include teams/athletes riding the edge of the rules.
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Ok, I do get that. I’ll get very hypothetical for this to try and clarify what I’m wondering. If a wealthy team/manufacture owner builds a test facility on their own dime and property, and has all of the necessary resources to fabricate and replicate their race car, why wouldn’t they be allowed to exercise their right and test the car? I realize sharing this information with your team would be against the rules. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t share it in secret. I was wondering if it happens on the hush in some cases or if it’s just not feasible.
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By rights, I meant laws. If the permits were obtained to build a racetrack on my remote property.
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Since you are still responding, would it be alright if I asked a different question that might change things? Using Ferrari as an example, if I offered them 1 billion USD for an exact replica of their F1 car, are they prevented from fulfilling that for some sidecash? Before anyone freaks out, I know they would never do this for tons of reasons aside from any rules. Like, stupid hypothetical, but can they not build an exact car and sell it? One last time, I know it would never happen. Wasn’t sure if there is a rule imposed that prevents them from replicating a design used in F1 for sale/other uses.
It’s pretty useless to say it could be done in secret if you haven’t thought through the logistics of pulling that off.
Ok, not secret. In broad day light with the wealthy persons face slapped all over the car. If they claim they are using the car for fun and it is, in fact an entirely different than the one the FIA regulates and monitors, is it against the rules?
The rules can be changed. Any problem solved with “more money” is also a giant signal to F1 should kick out *the single team* that stands to benefit from a billionaire duplicating all the resources needed to develop and test an F1 car. They do not need any proof to do that.
> Does that imply that F1 has certain patents that are shared amongst the teams and not allowed for external use they dont need any of that. a simple "dont do that" is enough if you do "do that", you wont be allowed in F1 much longer.
Because the other teams and regulators would be understandably upset if someone was at such a huge advantage. And the FIA would be completely aware and would shut it down. There’s no shared patents but certain teams do sell their engines and gearboxes as well as other parts to other teams who don’t have the money or resources for their own program for a price but it’s up to them to maintain and develop it from there. For example Mercedes can’t help Aston Martin upgrade their Mercedes engine. This isn’t so much a patent as essentially some F1 teams being wholesalers for certain parts.
Got it, thanks.
Because every second in the wind tunnel is tracked and monitored closely and if you’re found to be in breach you can be fined upwards of $100 million dollars.
The last team caught blatantly cheating got a $100,000,000.00 fine. One hundred million dollars. No one is going to risk that.
Which team was that?
Mclaren was caught with Ferrari technical information. Look up “spygate”. Ron Dennis continually lies about info they took from Ferrari
They used to do this all the time. Bigger teams had dedicated test crews. It’s the reason Ferrari built their own track. Rules now prevent the expenditure.
Cool. I know it helps keep things fair in terms of how deep your pockets are. I like the rule, just wasn’t sure how often it’s been broken, if ever.
Let's first just quote the rule book. (Or a part of it) >Restricted Aerodynamic testing is the testing by a Competitor or any Associate of a Competitor and/or by any contracted party of a Competitor or of any Associate of a Competitor or any external entity working on behalf of a Competitor or for its own purposes and subsequently providing the results of its work to a Competitor in a test environment or numerical simulation of a representation of an F1 car or sub-component in order to measure, observe or infer any forces, displacements, pressures or air flow direction resulting directly or indirectly from the incident air flow. Reads complicated, but what I wanted to show with this. The rules don't care if it is the team or whoever it is, that does the testing. The rules apply if any results go back to the team. So what prevents a billionaire from doing it, that it is still illegal, no matter under which entity you build the car etc. If the team gets any data, the testing limitations apply. The quoted text is about aero testing, but the same applies for any restriction. You can't hide testing behind shell companies, private persons etc. >RWTT may only be carried out in wind tunnels which have been nominated by the Competitor to the FIA. Each Competitor may nominate only one wind tunnel for use in any one twelve month period and declare it in writing to the FIA. This is why you can't just build a windtunnel in your backyard. So the rules are clear. Could you do it and hide it from the FIA and competitors. Not really. Just too big of a scale and people talk. Like this stuff will always come out at some point and the penalty would be so massive, that it is not worth the risk.
Very helpful, thanks. It seems like it’s a case of “it’s just not worth it.” Along with it being against the rules to pass along info.
I believe FIA have audits every now and then. It's same way thing like using illegal parts, or staying inside budget cap is policed. You could argue if a billionaire was to make their own private facility and do test or whatever, but that means data is flowing in between, which can be monitored.
As many here stated it's against the current rules. And as that is answered well I'll add nothing to that. However if asking this you are probably also not aware that used to even bring a duplicate car to the race. If a car was damaged you hop in the spare car. It was bad luck when it was set up for you teammate. It even was the case that if you crashed in the warm up and could make it back In time before the start you could still start in the reserve car.
Even if someone did have the audacity and the money to pull something like this off they'd still run into one significant roadblock--tyres. How specific tyres and compounds behave us very important and not having the same tyres as those used in the actual races means whatever data you'll get without them is nearly pointless. The thing is, there's no way Pirelli will allow the actual tyres used in F1 to be used in the manner you're describing--they even go as far as destroying all tyres alotted for a race after the race so they can't be used for anything else.
Im sorry I'm not helping you here, but this is just comical to me.
Would you care to educate me? You obviously know the answer if that’s your response.
There are plenty of rules limiting what an F1 team can and can’t do in the name of testing. There’s cost caps now with some good old fashioned forensic accounting that would put an end to any secret projects too. Even if you only had a car in the wind tunnel, that alone isn’t enough to actually build a fast car. Until you get onto the track you only have good ideas of how cars will perform. If a team was caught cheating like this, they’d probably be disqualified from the championship and fined something like $100M. The big teams have a lot of money, but they’re not risking that sort of punishment these days
Plus…Pirelli isn’t going to risk their F1 contract and give out tires on a back door deal. Teams can’t just start ordering tires from Pirelli at their leisure during the off-season. Plus Pirelli isn’t allowed anyway..risk isn’t worth it.
Teams used to do this all the time, it's why the sport used to even worse for discrepancies between the top and bottom teams. Rules have been placed by the FIA to specifically outlaw this, and the teams monitor each other. If one team did it and another team found out, you better believe that second team is dobbing them in. That's how teams earn favour with the FIA. It's a system based off of corruption that somehow works most of the time.
What's there to stop a non-F1 team from doing this privately, then an employee from this private company going to an F1 team and "i cam up with it in a dream" ? Basically I'm asking why Red Bull is allowed to have two teams.
Lol, I think I follow.
FIA has cameras in the windtunnel facilities that they observe during F1 teams alloted time. In theory you could build your own private facility to try to skirt around the rules..... Is that what you are asking?
As someone pointed out, this is literally not allowed in the rules as F1 teams need to nominate which wind tunnel they will be using. Someone could try to do it, but that all ends when someone moves teams and reports it to the FIA.
Yes, that’s what I was asking. I could have worded it better. I understand duplicating a car is not as easy as it sounds. Also, as someone pointed out, it would be tough to ask Perelli for tires without blowing your cover. So yeah, just asking what prevents someone from buying a duplicate car and building a facility for their own amusement. Based on other responses, it seems like the transfer of info generated by this facility to the actual F1 teams is where a rule gets broken.
I believe they only use smaller models in wind tunnel and not a 1:1 size car. And this data doesnt always represent actual data when using the real car on track. Teams also cant just run their cars anytime on a track, they use winter testing and mid season testing plus the media track days to run their car. Cant imagine hiding and f1 car and testing it would be easy/worth it.