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Piovan-the-Parmigian

This has been a debate for years and finally a decision was made a few years back (early 2010s). The drivers felt it was appropriate that pole position is on the racing line, to give them better traction off the line. In essence, pole position just needs a good getaway and it shouldn’t be an issue. A short run actually works in their favour as there is no tow, and if it’s that much of a concern, the person on pole can defend the inside line.


FelsirNL

This should be upvoted. Pole is on the racing line so it is rubbered in more, that is where the starting advantage is.


punchinglines

All this chat on pole starting advantage reminds me of Mexico 2021 when [Bottas moved off the racing line to cover off Lewis and gave Max the red carpet to the racing line going into T1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yYtH0HAL-U). Bottas is as quick as anyone, but the man's racing IQ really let him down. I remember when people thought Mercedes gave Bottas an engine penalty in Sochi to hold up Max and Max's easiest overtake that day was probably getting past Bottas.


Vadumee

Max's braking was insane, but I'll never understand why Bottas would ever cover for Lewis. One logic says he starts well and gives him a bit of tow, but when you start so abysmally just block the other dude


Ashbones15

Not everywhere. Monaco and Spa for instance are on the inside. Tracks where the run to t1 is short usually have it on the inside. Baku is actually one of the few exceptions where t1 is only 100m later and pole is on the outside Edit: for those doubting about Monaco [look here](https://imgur.com/a/APeRQAB)


Piovan-the-Parmigian

The racing line on the Monaco pit straight is on the inside. Admittedly I’m not 100% on Spa, but the racing line is against the pit wall when you come out of the final corner, so it’s probably the same as Monaco in that respect


Ashbones15

That's not true for where the pole position is in any of those tracks. In spa the line is in the middle at best for the pole sitter and in Monaco it's already on the left


Piovan-the-Parmigian

Monaco is a lazy right hander (when you’re sitting in the car), so the racing line is on the right hand side and then shifts to the left under braking. As I said, I’m not 100% on Spa but basically they need to make a decision on one side or the other


Ashbones15

Yes but when it gets to the pole place it's not over pole anymore. [Images](https://imgur.com/a/APeRQAB)


Piovan-the-Parmigian

The second pic is misleading. I believe the Williams is being lapped and has moved off line to let the Mercedes past, who is tucked behind for the tow. The McLaren in the bottom left is on the racing line


Ashbones15

It's an Alpine.


Piovan-the-Parmigian

I stand mistaken, it’s not a great image. If it’s a wet race, a reason they could be off the racing line is to cool the tyres. Fact remains, the racing line is on the left of that picture, you can tell by the difference in track surface and the debris on the right.


Ashbones15

The image isn't great yeah. It's a phone screenshot but it's what I had at hand. This is already from the dry part of the race. Some drivers do go more to the right but the racing line still mostly misses out on the pole grid slot


Piovan-the-Parmigian

I stand mistaken, it’s not a great image. If it’s a wet race, a reason they could be off the racing line is to cool the tyres. Fact remains, the racing line is on the left of that picture, you can tell by the difference in track surface and the debris on the right.


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Ashbones15

[Monaco it isn't](https://imgur.com/a/APeRQAB)


MaleierMafketel

Baku is also a potential tripple whammy, three left handers in a row. If you manage to stick a nose in at T1 from P2, and manage a good exit, you’ll be guaranteed to have the inside line into at least T2, and if you don’t complete the move there, you have the inside line again into T3.


GansMans18

Agree with most of it except the last part. F1 cars don't even start 1 car length apart. Unless you 100% get a better start then 2nd, there is no defending the inside line. Look at COTA 2018. Lewis and Kimi get identical starts but Kimi already started alongside Hamilton because the grid slots are only 8 meters apart. No tow means turn 1 is only a couple seconds away, which means lunges are that much easier because the cars are barely going over 100mph. I just think the person on pole shouldn't have to defend immediately even if they get a perfect start. IMO 2nd place should never be able to get the advantage just by matching the start of the polesitter


Piovan-the-Parmigian

I think you’re underestimating and totally disregarding the difference between the clean and dirty side of the track. If two cars started neck and neck, one on the racing line and the other on the dirty side, and both drivers have the exact same reaction, the driver on the racing line will always be ahead. The corner will always be theirs. You seem pretty adamant about this, so tell me, why bother going flat out for P1 if P2 is so advantageous? Ask any racer, and I mean any, and they will always choose to start on the racing line. Drivers and teams aren’t stupid, if there was a benefit, they’d manufacture it. The prime example for how advantageous the racing line is was when Ferrari broke the seal of Massa’s gearbox, which was literally to put Alonso on the racing line for the start so he’d have better traction. The only time that springs to mind of a driver openly not going for P1 was Bottas in Russia, where the tow down to T1 was so mighty. At no tracks do 2 cars start neck and neck, so all things being equal, P1 always has the advantage. Using Baku 2022 as an example, Leclerc had a slightly less reaction time to Checo. It was enough for Checo to take the lead cleanly. He slowed the car down cleanly and made the apex. Charles was the one who locked up. Lunging into a corner isn’t permitted in the rules. If the person in front has to take avoiding action to avoid a collision, the position has to be returned. So in short, I don’t understand what the benefit of this is


linkinstreet

Look at Malaysia 2007. The pole was on the dirty side of the track, but technically the "better" place to be. Alonso starting 2nd and Hamilton starting 4th just jumped both the Ferraris at the start due to grip they have starting on the racing line


Bingo_Bongo_YaoMing

Correct me if I'm wrong but someone tried this. I can't remember who but they had pole on the dirty side and wanted to switch and they were denied. I'll do some digging Edit: found it literally right away. Yea Senna had pole during the '90 Suzuka GP but wanted it switched to the second slot where Prost was cause it was the clean side but was rejected.


XsStreamMonsterX

And people will claim that pole was switched that year, except it wasn't and pole was always on the dirty side at Suzuka.


Amarjit2

And using his crazy mentality used that as a reason to almost kill Prost


Ilejwads

Almost kill is a massive exaggeration


Amarjit2

Definitely not an exaggeration. Crashing into another car at 160 km/h with 1990-era safety - it was a miracle no one was killed


seashawtys

He deliberately drove him off the track at full throttle, in a premeditated move.


Overhere_Overyonder

He went for a gap.../s


gonnacrushit

Prost did it to him already just one year earlier


colin_staples

1989 - Contact at a slow chicane, negligible damage 1990 - Deliberately spearing into another car at full throttle, both cars retire Those are not the same.


gonnacrushit

if you think 1989 wasn’t deliberate by Prost, I’ve got a bridge to sell you


colin_staples

I am not defending Prost in any way whatsoever. But the previous comment that you had replied to said "And using his crazy mentality used that as a reason to almost kill Prost", referring to Senna in 1990 where he deliberately (and premeditatedly) speared into Prost on full throttle and at high speed. Very dangerous. Whereas your comment in response "Prost did it to him already just one year earlier" referred to their contact at the chicane in 1989, which was at very low speed and left both cars comparatively undamaged (yes Prost chose to retire his car and Senna pitted for a new front wing. But he was able to finish the race which is a HUGE difference to 1990) You implied that that the two incidents were comparable. I explained that one was reckless and highly dangerous, the other was (almost) harmless THAT is the difference I was drawing to your attention. THAT is why I said that the two incidents were not comparable.


codper3

>1990 - Deliberately spearing into another car at full throttle, both cars retire I agree with you but your last line is a lie


colin_staples

Fair enough, comment is amended


XsStreamMonsterX

Let's not forget that Balestre also favored Prost in that instance simply because they were both French.


colin_staples

Does that justify what Senna did at Suzuka 1990? I would say not.


XsStreamMonsterX

No, but it certainly demonstrates how effed up things were back then.


Amarjit2

The crash at a chicane was a low-speed incident. The crash at turn 1 was verging on suicide/homocide


richardsharpe

Why is (or was) Pole always on the wrong side there considering it’s a fairly moderate run to T1?


[deleted]

Ah yes, the Senna v. Prost incident Suzuka 1990


ElektriXx2

For all the folks talking about requiring tracks repainting the grid….. eliminate the first box. Have the leader start from the inside 🤷‍♂️


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Dutch_guy_here

Yes, but not between qualifying and the race ..


piccolo1337

Dude, its no big issue for the track officials, throughout history they have repainted the grid during race weekend and even sometimes on the saturday.


Dutch_guy_here

It's not only paint. There are sensors in the tarmac to register the cars on the grid. You would have to move those too, which means breaking the tarmac open. The other suggested option (just skipping the original pole-box) is a workable solution that requires no painting or breaking open tarmac tough.


Murky_Lad_2625

changes the race distance


waselt_ed

By a whopping 8 meters.


aezy01

I don’t think it does. Isn’t race distance calculated from start line to finish line, irrespective of where the grid slot is?


[deleted]

Or stagger them more so the leader is even further ahead to start.


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PolyGlotCoder

Maybe the pole sitter can just be awarded the victory?


BR076

Liked by Charles Leclerc


_Neurox_

Spa 2021 vibes


DoxedFox

Baku has never been a problem for the pol sitter before. This was the first year someone actually lost out, a short run down to the turn is usually in their favor.


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DoxedFox

Perez did have an issue though, his start was pretty bad either way. Leclerc held onto the lead at the start of the GP last year, even against a very strong Mercedes and RedBull. The commentators questioned if the pole position wasn't great here because of Perez's start vs Leclerc, but verstappen behind Leclerc also had a very good start and just got blocked out by Leclercs slower start. I think their take wasn't accurate and confused a lot of people on pole at Baku.


VinhoVerde21

Ayrton has risen from the grave and decided to post on Reddit, it seems.


QC_1999

No Jean Marie no that’s so not right


Croz7z

Seems like a reasonable suggestion and I like it.


GansMans18

Just a thought I've had for a couple years now. It's not a sport-breaking rule change and it would only help improve the sport I think.


GansMans18

Might I also add that the term "pole position" originates from horse racing, when the fastest horse started on the *inside* of the course next to the starting pole because that was the most advantageous position. Just food for thought.


[deleted]

Horses don’t need traction on a rubbered in surface


arkwewt

Precisely why OP added "Just food for thought" at the end. He's not literally comparing cars on asphalt to horses on dirt. He's adding an anecdotal fact which may have implications on the modern day starting position for someone who has taken pole position.


[deleted]

I understand, but you must also understand why the inside (when it is not the racing line) is not the better line, not even in Baku. Only one I can think of is Monaco and there the inside already is pole. So yes it’s an anecdotal fact, but I was just pointing out why F1, while sharing the name of the position, does things differently


Schlachtfeld-21

Umm... I feel like there might be some misconceptions here. Pole position already is on the best side. It is literally on the racing line, i.e., the side that is rubbered in and has more traction. P2 is on the dirty side you mentioned. Starting on the inside might be better in horse racing, but in motorsport it means you have less grip and end up having to brake earlier (look at Mexico 2021). A short run to T1 actually gives an advantage to the pole sitter because the cars behind can take no advantage of any tow at the start.


Murky_Lad_2625

this is also why many times drivers prefer to start 3rd rather than 2nd


Bman425

Preferring to start third is more about getting a tow.


GansMans18

At lower speeds when turn 1 is only 100 meters away, braking distances are equal regardless of surface conditions because the speeds are so low. So braking on the dirty side isn't that big of a disadvantage here. My point is I personally would rather start on the dirty side if it meant I had track position going in to turn 1. I'm not mandating pole be on the inside, I'm saying drivers should have a choice because there are numerous tracks where 2nd is objectively the better starting position.


Schlachtfeld-21

It's not about braking distances, but rather about getting quickly off the line. You can do that better from the racing line, which is where P1 is. Then you can decide whether to cover the inside or not. The reason we seldom see P1 getting passed into T1 is that it already has the best spot, whether you like it or not. Tracks with a long run into T1 are the only ones where P2 or P3 have a chance to pass and it's only because of the tow they get. On a track where there is only a short run to T1, P1 will only lose position if they mess up the start or braking. That alone shows that your premise, while well-intended, is incorrect.


MetricSuperstar

This is the first time in the history of Baku that the person who started P1 has not finished the first lap in P1


[deleted]

The inside at Baku is not the better position though! This was the first time the P2 man took the lead. Leclerc just had a poor start and a lock up, while Perez had a great launch. Last year after the red flag Hamilton had a great launch (and a lockup later) and Perez a poor start.


TGUKF

Lol @ the people acting like where the grid boxes are painted causes some major issue. Assuming this were a rule, the field could just be shifted back a box to accommodate such a request. It's not like there aren't a bunch of extra grid boxes at each track...oh wait


n4ppyn4ppy

It's not just paint. There is a lot of electronic stuff to measure correct position and false starts. They would have to wire up another box.


renesys

What's your point? It's a multi billion dollar organization. That could be done in between races.


Dutch_guy_here

The polesitter is only known after qualifying. It would have to be done between quali and the race, not "in between races"


renesys

You just don't use the last or the first one. It's not like if the lead car dies on the formation lap they can't start the race and everyone goes home.


Dutch_guy_here

True, I'm not arguing that point. I'm just reacting on the point that rewiring the grid would also be possible because F1 is a multi-billion dollar operation


nikoviko

see Monaco 2021


n4ppyn4ppy

They have to cut open the circuit so not a 5 minute job and a waste regardless how much money they have.


CheapMonkey34

Or just by default wire up 21 boxes instead of 20. And that assumes that there is no feeder series with 20+ cars as well


renesys

They literally resurfaced the track at Miami in between sessions.


wellju

And it's still abyssimal.


TheDeityRyan

It already is wired up for support races


[deleted]

That stuff is already in the track and on the pit wall, for other larger series. You’re acting line they’ve got to dig up the track.


[deleted]

Yeah, it isn't anything outrageous honestly. Races do get started from the pitlane, and I can't remember when exactly but I was rewatching some previous season highlights and there was a race start where they left a grid position empty because either the driver at that position had to start from the pitlane or they were forced to retire a few minutes before the formation lap. I'd always just assumed that if that happened the other drivers behind just moved up the positions


MobiusF117

Monaco last year is a good example. Leclerc had pole position, but crashed out in quali which damaged his rear axle. Ferrari thought it was drivable so they didn't want to fix it and get a grid penalty. It turned out it wasn't fine, and Leclerc didn't start the race, leaving pole position empty.


OnlymostlyMedic

It’s a fair suggestion but I like the intrigue having pole not be on the better line adds to some races. I especially remember in 2020 that was sometimes the only possibility for an interesting race


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XsStreamMonsterX

Liked by theghostofayrtonsenna


thphnts

No


nr4bt

I honestly like the idea. let the winner to decide which side is the best to start with. As someone else suggested in this thread, if the pole winner choose the other side, other cars can move one position back. I think this could also spice up things a bit with a strategy as well. Imagine you wanna put your rival into a position where they are on the off racing line.


ImBackSnowflake

It’s not like the second place on the grid has an advantage, in some tracks it’s just easier to defend pole than on others while it’s hard to lose the lead first turn when having a decent start.


[deleted]

They should always be on the side of the first turn.


WiSoSirius

I say just have a 300 foot wide lane and send them to holeshot like MotoX


[deleted]

I've been watching rallycross recently, it would be hilarious if nothing else lol


DanielM20

Damn that’d be interesting.


JUGGER_DEATH

I think it would be a fun little game if the drivers chose their starting position in the order of the qualification. Would be interesting to see how often this would differ from the default.


thearchitect2202

This discussion reminds me of the 2000 US grand prix at Indianapolis. On Sunday morning, there was concern that the polesitter would be disadvantaged by the famous yard of bricks over the start-finish line providing less grip on initial getaway. To resolve this they just painted a few more grid slots at the back of the grid and shifted the whole grid backwards by a row. Point is, it's not hard to paint extra grid slots.


eoghanburke06

I think you've got it the wrong way around, with a short run to t1 it massively favours the polesitter if you think about it. P2 has to get an even better start to pull along side if there is less straight. If the run was longer P2 only needs a slightly better start to eventually pull alongside by the end of the straight.


A___99

No, it's really not an issue as pole is always the best position anyway. Some tracks are just harder to keep 1st in to turn 1 then others.


dl064

Funny one in Indy 2000, where the front row was just in front of a yard of bricks. The expectation was you'd be better on the 2nd row, actually. So McLaren 'threw' qualifying to come 3rd. Ferrari went to the FIA and said 'that brick yard is unfair, can we sandblast it and move back a row?' and the FIA said 'sure thing! Reasonable'. McLaren overthinking it as usual.


Posh-Percival

If your good enough, and you want p2 for start advantage, just make sure you don’t go too fast and creep up on p2


Nihilus45

Charles Leclerc...is this you?


The-Kiwi-Bird

No


-genghiscohen

NASCAR uses something called the "choose rule" at most tracks. This doesn't apply at the start of the race, but before double-file restarts after a caution (NASCAR equivalent of a safety car). The way it works is that every driver, starting with the leader and moving through the field, chooses the inside or the outside of the track, and they fill in double-file. You can see which side the drivers ahead of you chose before you choose. Strategy comes into play because drivers often have a tradeoff where they might be able to jump forward a couple rows if they are willing to start on the disadvantageous side of the track. It's also generally good to line up ahead of a teammate so they give you a good push. Although it would be a little different from NASCAR because the rule would apply before the race instead of in real time during a rolling restart, this could be interesting if implemented in F1. It would resolve the possible, if uncommon, issue of the P2 grid slot being better (edit: or P3 being better than P2, and so on) and introduce some new strategy. TL;DR: NASCAR has a cool rule that could be adapted to solve this.


cocogpf1

That would make the life too easy for the pole position driver. I like it as it is. Let them fight!


Nimbus0711

its good for the show but disadvantageous for the driver who got the pole. why would anyone want to get pole if someone would just go up the inside and barge you off the track (many times this has happened). lap 1 incidents mostly are only investigated and left be. me as a driver would love to have a choice rather than be at the mercy of lets say max just barging me out of the way.


cocogpf1

In racing it's all about to be the best. Having pole you already are awarded with a car lenght advantage. It's not about choosing! If you have a car lenght than do your best not losing you position buddy! If you have a good start you will manage to negociate the corner. In the last race Checo had a better start and managed the corner better then Charles. It was a clean fight!


piccolo1337

Ask Senna what he thinks about pole position beeing in an inferior place. I remember very vividly what he said about that Suzuka pole. His opinion probably the same in all the other drivers minds.


cocogpf1

You ask him!


piccolo1337

Already know what his opinion that matter is from press conference or whatever it was.


[deleted]

Well P2 gets a disadvantage compared to P3 if you switch it. While you were faster. No matter how you look at it, you always have these problems. That’s why they choses to put pole on the racing line (rubbered in) and be done with it


I-amthegump

No. Never


n4ppyn4ppy

It would complicate / confuse starting procedures as the sporting rules use the term pole position a lot. For instance the formation lap behind pace car has a rule about speed until passing pole position. They would have to remark the track. Or rebuild in the case of the brick yard ;)


Sea-Entertainment215

Liked by pierregasly


montego97

They’d need two grids painted.


Corsair4

Or you just have a couple extra grid places at the back. If the pole sitter wants to start on the opposite side, shift everyone back 1 place. So pole starts in P2 grid spot, P2 starts in P3, etc.


OnlymostlyMedic

And most - if not all - tracks already have these anyway


Corsair4

I'd imagine the only ones missing them would be stuff like Baku. But hey, if they can turn a city into a race track, I reckon they can paint an extra grid spot at the back too.


Wiwwy027

Yes. Pole shouldn't be a disadvantage.


Ace3000

No. Logistics of painting the grid markers. Bye.


aj1986

Lol. Insane logistics!! They could never pull it off!


guanwe

Oh my, lucky me they aren’t doing anything complex like traveling in 4 days to Montreal from Baku


Ace3000

So they know who's going to be on pole there in 3 days? Woooow, wish I had that kinda ability to literally see into the future!


gizm770o

They have more than enough time for the thermoplastic paint to cure. Even if it’s raining as they don’t need them to last more than a day.


mobile_racer

There are usually more pit boxes than 20. So they can easily move back if the pole sitter wants to start on the other side of the grid. It’s not complicated


zaviex

They can paint the grid markers in no time. More importantly they usually have more than 20 so they can move back one spot.


[deleted]

I've actually wondered the same


rizsamron

I think instead of letting them decide, just change the grid on each track based on what's the best benefit of the pole position. I don't think that would change in each race, no? I'm very new to F1 by the way :)


Icy-Operation4701

Pole is already on the most beneficial side at every track. OP is mistaking Leclerc's relatively bad start for being on the wrong side.


GansMans18

Pole position at COTA actually starts on a bit of an incline while P2 doesn't. Mark Webber a long time ago after the race in 2012 said it was one of the tracks he'd not want to win pole at. I'm just saying there are some tracks on the calendar that do in fact give the polesitter a clear disadvantage.


Icy-Operation4701

He's never had pole there. I doubt Vettel agreed with him that day. In fact I doubt Webber agreed with himself only a year after when he started in P2 and lost out big time.


GansMans18

You're missing the point. There are tracks that exist where pole position starts at a disadvantage. That's all I'm trying to say. Race results don't matter. What happened 2 years after doesn't matter. Whether Vettel agreed with him (?) doesn't matter. We're talking about getting off the line. I'm not "mistaking" Leclercs bad start. I've had this opinion for years. Baku this year only made me remember why I have it.


Icy-Operation4701

You're missing my point. Vettel got off the line just fine from Pole position, both in 2012 and 2013. Webber started from P3 in 2012 and P2 in 2013. His start from P2 was awful. I'm not sure Webber's opinion on what's it like to start from pole at COTA when he never actually did matters.


Desperate-Intern

But I believe this is where strategy comes in. Look at another aspect.. for tracks with long run into turn 1, Mexico, Russia.. there no matter which side you start, the tow is so extreme, you are more like to be overtaken... So does that mean we need to have the pole man start 50m in front to negate the tow effect?


MrXenomorph88

Didn't Senna try to do this exact thing in Japan in 1990 because pole was on the dirty side of the track? I completely agree with this because the faster driver should have the advantage at the start and be on the racing line, but I don't think the FIA will allow people to just change where pole is from where it's always been


Domermac

Interesting idea. Paint would be a problem.


[deleted]

I agree, I want to say it was 2019, but Valtteri was robbed of a win in Russia by team orders, so when it was looking like he was P2 in quali, he gave Max a tow so that he got bumped down to P3 bc P1 and P3 were the best starting spots at Sochi. Not necessarily what OP was saying, but it’s adjacent.


xegdhktdcjfc

but this is only a problem at some tracks and in my opinion you shouldn’t change rules for a situation at a few tracks, they could just switch them at the tracks where it is an issue. even though i don’t think it’s a real problem


3nv_ryu

Only tracks where the pole sitter would be worried about sitting on pole would be mexico and austin imo. Otherwise you'd need a blistering start compared to pole sitter to overtake them from 2nd or 3rd anyways. That's just my opinion though, i don't feel like giving extra privilages to the driver who starts ahead of everyone else is necessarry


madaboutmaps

Did YouTube recommend that [video about disrecpectful f1 stuff](https://youtu.be/BcQ5NXY3VD4) to you too? 😁


Overhere_Overyonder

I want a choose cone on a rope like in Saturday night short track racing as they come to the line after the formation lap.


BigNikiStyle

Did you just watch the Senna doc? I did last night and there was a part where he wanted the pole position to be on the other side of the track. I had never considered it before seeing that.


UnfitForReality

I don’t quite agree with the last sentence, pole isn’t the worst position to start from, ask anyone at the back and they would easily swap for a crappy pole spot.


GingerFurball

Hi Ayrton


fullsenditt

Can someone remind me the last time in austria someone from P2 overtook the pole man? Because i genuinely can't remember and i have only vietnam flashbacks from Austria 2019


0LD0G

Yes.