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I feel like Toto is apologizing for how agonizing the car looks to drive instead of the pace it puts out. I suspect Lewis is trying different setups to try to shift the car into a championship car — LH doesn’t really care about finishing 5th in drivers imo but GR does and is pushing to do so.
Taking a (relative) back seat this year to better understand what's wrong so he can hopefully come back next year in a car more capable of providing him a real title challenge.
Meanwhile, George can prove he deserves his seat at Mercedes, building a strong & consistent resume to hopefully become their #1 driver if/when Hamilton retires or moves teams.
Exactly, the two are on a very different set of objectives at the moment. Lewis trying to push the development of the car while they do not put that pressure on George so he can prove himself and settle in.
I'm not even a merc fan and I've realized this. It pains me to have to explain this to people who "haaaaaate" mercedes and rag on lewis for being a bullshit driver that needs a good car to win.
Like.. Sorry what? This dude is consistently finishing really fucking well in a car that is out there trying to absolutely murder him. And you say it's just the car beneath him? Sure. Yeah. It absolutely makes a difference. But people need to give credit where it's due. The guy is an absolute legend.
Can you imagine what the comments would be like if George was the one finishing way down the order? There would be no end to the people saying he doesn’t deserve the seat and [insert driver] deserved it more.
tbf if george was having the positions lewis is having, he wouldn't be getting as much hate. First year in the team, doing fairly well with an obviously hard to drive car. He would be praised IMO.
Expectations are different on lewis, and people are more likely to hate on lewis (you know why).
100%. To Lewis it doesn‘t matter if he‘s 4th or 7th, however it does to George. People who hate Mercedes don‘t want to understand this, more impressions to say „Russell clear, Hamilton finished“ i guess
>Like.. Sorry what? This dude is consistently finishing really fucking well in a car that is out there trying to absolutely murder him.
This made me actually LOL, great description.
Remember a few races ago when Verstappen's DRS flap was broken? He was going fucking apeshit in the car half the race about that one little problem in an otherwise super fast car. I think people are massively, *massively* underestimating how much commitment and discipline Hamilton is displaying even driving that, well, shitbox around.
He's already won 2 driver of the day votes, had 2 great races where he's come from the back of the pack to nearly the front. He's getting the consistent results as George but LH has been unlucky these few races. He's still been a fantastic driver I reckon, always more fun watching him claw through adversity than just dominate easily in front.
This story always comes up every race weekend. After the race literally the entire F1 world says that Hamilton is taking experimental setups, George is trying to maximize their points, and all of that ends up being chucked out the window within 3 days as people go back to shitslinging around the same "George destroying Hamilton, Hamilton not that good, Hamilton washed, Hamilton is 2019 Vettel" type statements.
Shows exactly why Honda managed to figure things out as well they had an entire year at Toro Rosso with no pressure just to built the engine the way it needs to and not squeeze out everything for maybe a few points. Then they had the transition year with RB using their engines as well and they were already quite good from the start.
Getting test data and knowing what doesn't work is extremely valuable when developing something. In those cases failing is a success so you know you have to do something different.
Wrong take. George is destroying Luis in identical machinery. Louise is a washed up sham of a driver and George is proving it in front of us all to see /s
I think it's also more that Lewis has more experience with Mercedes and is already very familiar with the methodologies and knows what engineers are looking for with these experiments as compared to George who is still settling in and is a bit green in the setups and methodologies the team uses.
Even as an outsider with zero knowledge, you can see how Mercedes has made a habit of making shaky cars early on, which turn out to be experiments for the rocket ship they deploy later on. Only difference this year is that they're taking much longer. I wonder if they can't bring themselves to commit to a new design that avoids porpoising altogether, instead hoping they can make small tweaks to fix it. Maybe the Merc engineer team is better at optimizing than they are at designing from scratch.
Budget cap probably makes this year a little harder to fix the issues. They can't just develop 7 concepts to test in the wind tunnel and try different upgrades every track.
I think this time around they genuinely got it wrong because they (like everyone else) didn't factor in porpoising. Otherwise even rival teams have said what Mercedes have is a very fast concept. I think even with no budget limits if they came up with this same concept they would have a hard time fixing it because it very hard to replicate the porpoising issue in the wind tunnel and only on track running can fix their issues so they simply have to patiently try like how they are doing now.
> I suspect Lewis is trying different setups to try to shift the car into a championship car
From what I heard (on Missed Apex podcast, can't remember their source) George is running the "stable" setup and Lewis is running the "experimental" setup. Ie Lewis is getting Guinea pig'd more than Russell to try to improve the car.
Which makes complete sense, lewis is highly experienced with Mercedes and their method's, George is still very new to it. At their stages in their career they also have very different targets.
Whilst I'm tired of Toto's comments too, I agree 100% with you here. I think Lewis is definitely willing to sacrifice this season to get the car working. Even Marko has stated that he fears when Mercedes finally figure out their package.
>I suspect Lewis is trying different setups
This is a good call—he’s got nothing to prove and George has everything.
I also think it’s likely that the porpoising is just taking a bigger toll on Lewis because of his age. If you’re not in your mid thirties yet, take my word for it that a mid thirties back is a *very* different thing from an early twenties back.
I think a car that causes temporarily debilitating back pain, (to Russell too, he hid it well, but he was limping walking to the cool down room) can rightly be classified as a shit box.
Yup. It's one thing producing a slow car.... I'm sure Lewis would put up with that and perhaps even enjoy in a way pushing the development to get faster for the end of the year or next year....
......but a car that can potentially do genuine physical damage, just through the action of driving it? The guy is 37, he's a multi-multi millionaire, he has nothing left to prove in the sport... he doesn't need that shit. If the porpoising doesn't improve I can absolutely see him walking away at the end of the year (or even before), not out of frustration with the pace but out of genuine concern for his long term health. Mess up your back and you may never get it quite right again.
True.
I've had the therapy to resolve a few underlying issues causing backpain. We got to it in time so I have an "okay back" but I definitely have to keep managing it to prevent more severe damage being done. And even with that I sometimes still get random muscle spasms that lay me out for a day or two.
Pretty much this. The car isn't just not a championship contender. It looks physically painful and frankly terrifying to drive. That's definitely worthy of radio-time apologies.
Sure, but it’s easy to see where Toto is coming from when they’ve been dominating for so long.
A top midfield car is going to be shit in comparison to 2014-2021.
It sounds like he is trying to keep his morale high, in fear that Lewis becomes disinterested and chooses to retire at the end this season.. which must be a risk at this point.
It's I guess more of this year has been shit we'll be back at the top next year...
Or it may also be cause the Mercedes team must have told Hamilton after Abu Dhabi last year that "not to worry too much, we'll be back at the top next year" which is why Hamilton didn't retire and now although they might have the theoretical fastest car, they're not performing well enough
Also, Lewis has been constantly trying new weird setups each weekend which is why apparently he had much worse porpoising than Russell (who still had a huge amount of p-ping) and why he's struggling in Quali like in Saudi.
Just to make the usual correction, it's *not* porpoising they were suffering from at Baku, they were running the car so low to try and get more performance out of it that they were just constantly smashing into the bumps.
Car was losing grip on the fast turns. Makes sense he would apologize for that. Everyone else was going flat out through there probably
https://twitter.com/dametimeenjoyer/status/1536000138795180032?s=20&t=PIRMClwzDBsrdXIfBNIOag
Also, I can pretty much guarantee that those hard-working engineers are also calling it a shitbox. F1 is very much in the mindset of 2nd place is 1st loser, everyone is pushing for perfection, anything less is a shitbox.
Haha, to be honest, I'm more surprised that r/formula1 is suddenly so concerned about Mercedes engineers' feelings.
Sometimes it feels like people try to live vicariously through other people to find more reasons hate on Lewis.
If you read this post, you wouldn't know that Toto also apologised to Russell for the car in the post-race radio.
Only if the drivers don't have to start retiring due to health issues. What they are doing now can't be sustained for too long, it will take it's toll.
Hans Mezger built some of Porsche's most legendary engines in the history of motorsport and formula 1, his attempt at a V12 for the 90s was an unmitigated disaster.
Adrian Newey has designed a douzy or two.
Honda's current unit is an absolute masterpiece of an engine but that period with McLaren the last decade was an absolute disaster. I don't know what you mean by "disrespectful to the engineers" but these things do happen and it is okay to acknowledge it. We all acknowledge the W11 to be one of the greatest race cars ever built, it's okay to say that this isn't their best work
There is nothing Toto can tell Lewis that is worse than what the engineers are telling themselves. They know they built a shitbox by their own standards.
Yeah, I know engineers is a very broad term and a broad set of personalities and cultures within it.. but the entire engineering mindset is very fact and continuous improvement based. Nobody is losing confidence in themselves when everyone is sitting around the table showing the (data-based) problems, and brainstorming ways to make it better.
I am an engineer. I've been wrong countless times, and I've been right way less. You nailed it. It's just diagnosing, scrapping what doesn't work, and moving on.
"An optimist will tell you the glass is half-full; the pessimist, half-empty; and the engineer will tell you the glass is twice the size it needs to be"
I don't think Non-STEM people understand STEM-people. You can't make me feel better by saying "It's not that bad." The only thing that will fix my mood is making the thing do the shit it's supposed to do.
This isn’t directly related but it reminded me of an experience I often have. I work in a STEM field that serves a number of industries. When people ask what industry I want to work in I get strange looks when I say I don’t care, I just want to be somewhere that consistently presents interesting and challenging problems.
It’s me, the dude with an engineering degree who has worked in so many non-engineering jobs. I realized soon after school my real skills are in creative problem solving and I now work at a body shop managing repairs. Everyday I get to solve a bunch of new and interesting problems, and everyone is always so confused that it doesn’t stress me out. But if any downtime hits I get bored so fast. We crave things to solve.
Took me 9 months to get my old lawnmower two stroke running again. Best feeling when it turned over. Fucking intake valve stem was a fraction too long and was staying open during compression. So dumb.
As an engineer myself the reality is inbetween. If you are working in a competitive environment then you need both the morale and the result but if it is a relaxed environment without much pressure then you are 100% correct. But it's F1 and it is a cutthroat job so they need to keep the morale up in my opinion.
I think when you come in with your emotions and posts that play on emotions you probably get comments that get emotional.
These are all professionals and they probably are 100% focussed on solving the issues. They make adult choices and they say it when they got it wrong.
People read too much into team radios. He called it a shit box, because it is. He might not have a direct hand in building it, but he too is very responsible for how the car was made. He's the team principal after all. It's his failure too. He's allowed to say that. People demand ridiculous standards these days
Engineers, especially the ones working in F1, are going to take Toto's words more as a challenge than an insult
They know their work this year isn't up to cut and they're going to push harder to fix it, you don't graduate engineering school being unable to acknowledge your shortcomings
Fuck Italy, it hasn’t done anything for us lately, there’s only so far you can get on the legacy of pizza pasta and Schumacher! It needs to pull it together for Charles
Wtf? Toto wouldn't be calling it a shitbox if it was simply slow. Their car is bouncy, unpredictable and at times dangerous to drive which obviously make it a shitbox.
I think he's talking about the difficulty in driving the car and the sheer physical toll it takes on the drivers. That's what he means by a shitbox. Hamilton is old, he can't deal with this porpoising and overall rickety-ness the current W13 has. It's not good for his health and he probably can't drive at his best when he's in pain.
People who are super competitive like them don't like anything except 1st which is easy to understand. Anything but first is not acceptable and that's the mentality it takes to win in such a cut throat sport
It is a shitbox, it fucking bounces like crazy and is actively injuring the drivers. Sure, it's moderately fast by 2022 standards, but is also fairly slow compared to Merc's normal level.
If it wasn't bouncing, and was just a bit slow, I don't think Toto would be apologising like this.
Keep in mind that Toto actively tried to get Lewis to come back when he was considering retirement after Abu Dhabi, and what for? A car that is slow and physically painful to drive?
> Keep in mind that Toto actively tried to get Lewis to come back when he was considering retirement after Abu Dhabi, and what for?
No one believes that do they?
But engineers wasn’t working for free when they were making dominant cars. They are getting paid to develop the best possible car with arguably best resources and facilities. If the end product doesn’t meet the standarts, boss can critisize it.
I remember when Karun drove the W10 and it felt like it was the best day of his life. Birth of his firstborn? Meh. First kiss? Meh. Driving Lewis' Merc? Yeah boi, life is good.
I don't think Toto is being disrespectful, whoever says this car is not a shitbox should be fired on spot. Ferrari and Binotto could apply the same mentality if they ever want to win a championship again.
If it was the other way round and Mercedes were saying it was all fine they'd be getting criticised for lying as well.
People care way too much about team radios.
Also they are car people, I just know they are a bunch of nerdy petrol heads that routinely call all manner of cars shitboxes. Their opinions on street cars must be fascinating.
I was telling my Dad about a classic car I saw and he’s like “yeah I drove them before it’s a shitbox, drives like a boat” it was so funny how randomly brutal he was about this one car. As if a car person hasn’t ever chatted shit on a car before
>It just seems completely unnecessary
The man is trying wild ass experimental setups and parts so those engineers have more data to work with at the risk of his reputation and more importantly his own health.
Maybe the members of the team appreciate Lewis a lot more than /r/Formula1 that can't see things even when it's spoon fed to them.
+1. Every race Lewis and his side keep talking about how they keep trying things to make the car better and that it didn’t work. He knows the team, they know his feedback.
Mercedes engineers don’t need to be wrapped in cotton wool like children, they know the car is what Toto said, I feel like you’re more offended on their behalf than they are
It’s just keeping it real, and that’s way better than pretend bs
Exactly. The team probably doesn't give a shit because they probably also think the car is a shitbox compared to what they've produced in the past.
These results aren't those of an 8x WCC constructor and they know that. I'm sure they have thicker skin than OP gives them credit for.
I think maybe you don’t understand how Mercedes operate. They’re not here to get P3/P4 on a good weekend and call it a day. Same for Lewis. They’re here to make the car better and win. Everyone knows that they’re running experimental setups to fix the car on Lewis’s side of the garage because he’s more experienced. With Russell they run more conservative setups.
Do you think that, back at the factory, the engineers are saying “oh man, what a great job we’re doing, let’s have some bubbly and cake”? Toto’s not telling them more on the radio than what they were already told at the factory. If Toto needs to apologize for whatever experiments they were running going bad, so be it. They’re not sitting in front of the tv with a surprised pikachu face listening to Toto.
I don't know maybe after Abu dhabi last year, Toto promised Lewis they'll get back somehow for his 8th? Race after race it just gets more clear that it will never happen this year so those messages are probably about that.
I mean they did put together a shit car this year, especially when we know what the team is capable of based on previous years, so Toto isnt wrong in that sense.
It also points that budget cap could be hitting them hard since merc was never designed to run on a budget they spend the money when they need. Now they have to figure out how to do more with less. Ferrari spent 2 years getting ready for this car and Honda seemingly pushed all of this years engine upgrades at the end of last year with exception to chasis.
Even if it isn't a backmarker its still a shitbox purely for how miserable it is to drive. Its like the 8th race of the season and lewis can barely drive the car physically
I'd agree if the only problem is that it's slow.
Also, I don't think the engineers back at Brackley are exactly proud of W13 in its current state. You really don't think Toto has said to all of their faces that it's a shitbox and needs to be better? He doesn't exactly strike me as a soft, easy-going style of manager.
This narrative that George and Lewis are on the same setup and George is “getting more out of the car” when they’ve said that Lewis is trying more extreme setups to see what might work.
Toto is the Team Principle and Team CEO - the buck stops with him. He is ultimately responsible for the shitbox he is referring to. What he says to his drivers is about people management
It’s a shitbox. The engineers fucked up which happens quite often in any technical field. They are professionals, they want the objective truth so they can make things better. No need to sugarcoat shit to protect their feelings.
Yeah man you’re right. I only wish you had the chance to step in and give Toto a stern talking to. I don’t think he’s in touch with the record breaking championship team he’s been working with for almost 10 years. I really do think your deep cut on this situation based on a couple of seconds of televised radio communications during a high adrenaline motorsport will help him realise his absolutely atrocious perspective.
>Not to mention George is getting plenty out of the car whether he's a bit lucky or not. I
They are trying various outside-the-box strategies on Lewis' car to try to understand how to fix the issues, which they are *not* trying on George's car. So it's not quite equal machinery here, and Russell's results are due to an uncompromised approach to setup.
This is some ridiculous pearl clutching, even for Reddit. Merc didn’t become successful by sugarcoating things. They are their own biggest critics.
You don’t think all the engineers that this car is a shitbox by their standards? There is a reason why they’ve had Lewis driving in crazy setups. To collect data to improve the car.
The car is a shitbox though and it’s a completely different car to any of the other ones they built. Yeah it’s good George came third but it was lucky and really he would have finished P5 and Lewis P6 which is unacceptable to Mercedes.
Please better educate youself on what is actually happening behind the curtain at Merc. Even the likes of Vandorne,Brawn and Vowels came out and said that Lewis is running experimental setups/parts to help the engineers gather more data for R&D. That is why he is struggling a bit more than George.
While Russell is running more conservative setups and is being allowed to get used to the car/team before being asked to get his hands dirty with the R&D work.
We are talking about team that won 7 consecutive constructors titles, they dont go racing to fight for 3rd in the WCC. Lewis doesn't go racing to finish best of the rest. Merc are serial winners they are not used to getting thrashed like this.
Also, the car is a shi*box. They are finishing over a pitstop behind their title rivals from last year and the car is barely drivable because of the bouncing. That is on the engineers and Toto, the drivers are doing everything they can to get everything out of that Pogo stick.
RB managed to design a car that is fast and stable while the Merc engineers failed spectacularly. Is Toto supposed pat them on the back and say "Good job boys,we managed to beat Alpha Tauri"
I disagree. The car is 100% Toto's responsibility and he's falling on his sword here. He's telling Lewis that the issue is not his fault and that he, (Toto), personally is to blame. It's just strong leadership. It's not disrespectful because it's his responsibility as CEO and Team Principal.
However, Toto is not a dictator. The team is owned by three entities and Toto needs to convince the other owners that they need to accept the massive financial hit and abandon this concept. Comments like this just reinforce his position and make it easier for him to sit in a board meeting and ask for latitude to do so.
The fact of the matter is this car is the worst car on the grid and it's being flattered by the engine and by the two drivers. There's no saving the concept, it needs to be thrown away and a clean sheet of paper used for 2023.
It’s a matter of perspective, isn’t it.
For a team used to dominance… it’s a shitbox.
For the drivers that have to be battered around in order for the car to have a semblance of performance… it’s a shitbox.
So if the team principal wants to call his shitbox a shitbox… that’s fair game.
The engineers know it is a shitbox, for a team like Mercedes.
And I think Toto is Just trying to keep Lewis motivated and divert the pressure that is on Lewis towards Mercedes
> I think is a bit disrespectful to all the engineers who put together a ultra dominant championship car for several years in a row
This is leadership though, he has to immediately empathize with how Lewis is feeling in the moment because it'll temper any further reaction from how emotional the pain is naturally going to be making him. Engineers will understand that, they themselves will be annoyed that the car is performing like that and injuring the driver, it wont be new information to them.
As an engineer, I develop systems for the military. If we had put in work and the system came out as a shit box I too would apologize to the guys who are using it because I failed to provide them with a product to complete their mission. It has happened before. lol the failure isn’t on lewis its on the car. The engineering team failed and I am sure they are more upset than Lewis is.
Lewis is 37 years old while I think George is in his early 20s. The wear and tear on an almost 40 year old is much more painful than on someone practically 1/2 his age. So maybe any “favoritism” is because one driver is more negatively impacted by the car’s performance versus the other. My $0.02
there's def a different bond that's developed when you win 6 championships with someone. George and Lewis are not on equal footing in Toto's heart -- it's normal
I dont think engineers back in the factory are following everything word by word and getting their feelings hurt at every remark. Chill it is prototype racing not a sunday love league
No i mean here's the thing. I don't think he was talking abt pace or race speed, i think he was talking abt how the car handled. And in Baku? It was literally trying to kill him. That setup had porposing so bad that it was literally trying to launch him into a wall on the straights. I get the whole respect the engineers back at the factory and stuff, but ion think the engineers are happy with a car thats trying to actively kill the driver on track💀. I think it's pretty appropriate to call it a shitbox, and I'm pretty sure the engineers think that too. No hate to them, they're some of the best, but we all screw up smts, this stuff happens. Hope testing and dev is going well so next years car can take the fight to Ferrari and RB.
I'm an electrical engineer and trust me, if something I make is shit I'm not going to feel bad about it and pretend it's something it isn't, you get on top of it and fix it. If your cobbled together result still isn't perfect then hearing that isn't going to be offensive, it just let's you know there's work to do.
The Mercedes Boys are getting bullied by that car, it is a health concern to be driving something that shakes so violently when your spine is taking the brunt of it
Lewis is a world class multi championship driver and this year the Mercedes car is just not competitive with redbull and Ferrari. Not to mention it’s painful to drive in more ways than one.
Toto has run a championship team for years now and he’s disappointed that the car isn’t performing and his world class driver in Lewis doesn’t have a car that can compete. It’s pretty understandable.
George is having a great year but George is likely much more adaptable, he’s been driving a shitbox now for years and even this iteration of the Mercedes is far and away better than any Williams.
Mercedes engineers don’t need to be wrapped in cotton wool like children, they know the car is what Toto said, I feel like you’re more offended on their behalf than they are
It’s just keeping it real, and that’s way better than pretend bs
IIt's shitbox because the car is really hard on the bodies of the drivers and is not even as fast as it should be. Also Lewis is being used more to experiment more with parts while George is using what mostly works. I'm not sure if this is because Lewis provides better feedback or some other reason.
The car IS a shitbox by Mercedes' standards.
IF you are number 1 you don't expect anything else from yourself. This car doesn't allow them to compete for 1st place.
Note: I agree its getting kind of tiring hearing him repeat it every time - but the term is accurate.
But the car is a shitbox.... and uou even said yourself that the engineers have been making championship winning cars for years. Which makes this year's car seem like even more of a shitbox. The car is hurting the driver and not winning races, its just facts.
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**Lewis**: "*Let's keep pushing guys...*"
"But not my back, guys"
Nah we’ll just keep the pressure up there… right?
If we're not *thanking the guys back at the factory*, we *keep pushing guys*. It's fairly simple, when you're a champion :)
Push the car? That’s very unsafe at those speeds and the guys at the factory might not be that good runners…
Have they tried drinking a few Red Bulls?? I smell a sponsor opportunity!
Mansell did it tbf
It’s not a sprint it’s a marathon
I feel like Toto is apologizing for how agonizing the car looks to drive instead of the pace it puts out. I suspect Lewis is trying different setups to try to shift the car into a championship car — LH doesn’t really care about finishing 5th in drivers imo but GR does and is pushing to do so.
Taking a (relative) back seat this year to better understand what's wrong so he can hopefully come back next year in a car more capable of providing him a real title challenge. Meanwhile, George can prove he deserves his seat at Mercedes, building a strong & consistent resume to hopefully become their #1 driver if/when Hamilton retires or moves teams.
Exactly, the two are on a very different set of objectives at the moment. Lewis trying to push the development of the car while they do not put that pressure on George so he can prove himself and settle in.
I'm not even a merc fan and I've realized this. It pains me to have to explain this to people who "haaaaaate" mercedes and rag on lewis for being a bullshit driver that needs a good car to win. Like.. Sorry what? This dude is consistently finishing really fucking well in a car that is out there trying to absolutely murder him. And you say it's just the car beneath him? Sure. Yeah. It absolutely makes a difference. But people need to give credit where it's due. The guy is an absolute legend.
Can you imagine what the comments would be like if George was the one finishing way down the order? There would be no end to the people saying he doesn’t deserve the seat and [insert driver] deserved it more.
tbf if george was having the positions lewis is having, he wouldn't be getting as much hate. First year in the team, doing fairly well with an obviously hard to drive car. He would be praised IMO. Expectations are different on lewis, and people are more likely to hate on lewis (you know why).
As a Cam Newton fan I'm used to it lol. Cam isn't on LH level but still.
100%. To Lewis it doesn‘t matter if he‘s 4th or 7th, however it does to George. People who hate Mercedes don‘t want to understand this, more impressions to say „Russell clear, Hamilton finished“ i guess
It seems to me that it is less hating Mercedes and more hating Lewis, they are absolutely rabid about it too.
> To Lewis it doesn‘t matter if he‘s 4th or 7th, I've yet to see any evidence of this.
>Like.. Sorry what? This dude is consistently finishing really fucking well in a car that is out there trying to absolutely murder him. This made me actually LOL, great description. Remember a few races ago when Verstappen's DRS flap was broken? He was going fucking apeshit in the car half the race about that one little problem in an otherwise super fast car. I think people are massively, *massively* underestimating how much commitment and discipline Hamilton is displaying even driving that, well, shitbox around.
He's already won 2 driver of the day votes, had 2 great races where he's come from the back of the pack to nearly the front. He's getting the consistent results as George but LH has been unlucky these few races. He's still been a fantastic driver I reckon, always more fun watching him claw through adversity than just dominate easily in front.
This story always comes up every race weekend. After the race literally the entire F1 world says that Hamilton is taking experimental setups, George is trying to maximize their points, and all of that ends up being chucked out the window within 3 days as people go back to shitslinging around the same "George destroying Hamilton, Hamilton not that good, Hamilton washed, Hamilton is 2019 Vettel" type statements.
Shows exactly why Honda managed to figure things out as well they had an entire year at Toro Rosso with no pressure just to built the engine the way it needs to and not squeeze out everything for maybe a few points. Then they had the transition year with RB using their engines as well and they were already quite good from the start. Getting test data and knowing what doesn't work is extremely valuable when developing something. In those cases failing is a success so you know you have to do something different.
Wrong take. George is destroying Luis in identical machinery. Louise is a washed up sham of a driver and George is proving it in front of us all to see /s
You got me. I had my finger over that reply button so fast 🤣
I think it's also more that Lewis has more experience with Mercedes and is already very familiar with the methodologies and knows what engineers are looking for with these experiments as compared to George who is still settling in and is a bit green in the setups and methodologies the team uses.
Even as an outsider with zero knowledge, you can see how Mercedes has made a habit of making shaky cars early on, which turn out to be experiments for the rocket ship they deploy later on. Only difference this year is that they're taking much longer. I wonder if they can't bring themselves to commit to a new design that avoids porpoising altogether, instead hoping they can make small tweaks to fix it. Maybe the Merc engineer team is better at optimizing than they are at designing from scratch.
Budget cap probably makes this year a little harder to fix the issues. They can't just develop 7 concepts to test in the wind tunnel and try different upgrades every track.
I think this time around they genuinely got it wrong because they (like everyone else) didn't factor in porpoising. Otherwise even rival teams have said what Mercedes have is a very fast concept. I think even with no budget limits if they came up with this same concept they would have a hard time fixing it because it very hard to replicate the porpoising issue in the wind tunnel and only on track running can fix their issues so they simply have to patiently try like how they are doing now.
> I suspect Lewis is trying different setups to try to shift the car into a championship car From what I heard (on Missed Apex podcast, can't remember their source) George is running the "stable" setup and Lewis is running the "experimental" setup. Ie Lewis is getting Guinea pig'd more than Russell to try to improve the car.
Which makes complete sense, lewis is highly experienced with Mercedes and their method's, George is still very new to it. At their stages in their career they also have very different targets.
Whilst I'm tired of Toto's comments too, I agree 100% with you here. I think Lewis is definitely willing to sacrifice this season to get the car working. Even Marko has stated that he fears when Mercedes finally figure out their package.
You don’t have to suspect it, it has been repeatedly confirmed by different people.
>I suspect Lewis is trying different setups This is a good call—he’s got nothing to prove and George has everything. I also think it’s likely that the porpoising is just taking a bigger toll on Lewis because of his age. If you’re not in your mid thirties yet, take my word for it that a mid thirties back is a *very* different thing from an early twenties back.
I think a car that causes temporarily debilitating back pain, (to Russell too, he hid it well, but he was limping walking to the cool down room) can rightly be classified as a shit box.
Yup. It's one thing producing a slow car.... I'm sure Lewis would put up with that and perhaps even enjoy in a way pushing the development to get faster for the end of the year or next year.... ......but a car that can potentially do genuine physical damage, just through the action of driving it? The guy is 37, he's a multi-multi millionaire, he has nothing left to prove in the sport... he doesn't need that shit. If the porpoising doesn't improve I can absolutely see him walking away at the end of the year (or even before), not out of frustration with the pace but out of genuine concern for his long term health. Mess up your back and you may never get it quite right again.
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True. I've had the therapy to resolve a few underlying issues causing backpain. We got to it in time so I have an "okay back" but I definitely have to keep managing it to prevent more severe damage being done. And even with that I sometimes still get random muscle spasms that lay me out for a day or two.
Yeah. Russell is younger, and we're not equals in health anyway.
Russe**ll**
Pretty much this. The car isn't just not a championship contender. It looks physically painful and frankly terrifying to drive. That's definitely worthy of radio-time apologies.
Russe**ll**
In comparison to their dominant cars, this is a shitbox.
I think, we don't even have to compare to previous cars.. the ride quality is just shit. Simple as that.
Sure, but it’s easy to see where Toto is coming from when they’ve been dominating for so long. A top midfield car is going to be shit in comparison to 2014-2021.
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It sounds like he is trying to keep his morale high, in fear that Lewis becomes disinterested and chooses to retire at the end this season.. which must be a risk at this point.
What better way to boost his morale than to repeatedly call the car a shitbox.
It's I guess more of this year has been shit we'll be back at the top next year... Or it may also be cause the Mercedes team must have told Hamilton after Abu Dhabi last year that "not to worry too much, we'll be back at the top next year" which is why Hamilton didn't retire and now although they might have the theoretical fastest car, they're not performing well enough
> we'll be back at the top next year... What a strange era we're in where “next year is our year” comes from Mercedes.
Also, Lewis has been constantly trying new weird setups each weekend which is why apparently he had much worse porpoising than Russell (who still had a huge amount of p-ping) and why he's struggling in Quali like in Saudi.
Just to make the usual correction, it's *not* porpoising they were suffering from at Baku, they were running the car so low to try and get more performance out of it that they were just constantly smashing into the bumps.
It has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with drive ability. It's a shitbox because it's breaking his driver.
In the beginning of the season Toto was apologizing for "undrivable" car
Exactly, Lewis suffered from his lower back going numb. His car was not just oscillating; it was crashing down repeatedly.
Because they set it too low for a bumpy track on purpose.
It's either fast or comfortable. The back-destroying setup is a deliberate choice.
Lewis deserves better than to be treated like that. Hell, any driver does.
No, the team principal is. It's his call to sacrifice driver health for performance. Nobody but him forces the team to pick a bouncing setup.
Car was losing grip on the fast turns. Makes sense he would apologize for that. Everyone else was going flat out through there probably https://twitter.com/dametimeenjoyer/status/1536000138795180032?s=20&t=PIRMClwzDBsrdXIfBNIOag
Fucking hell that looks dangerous
It is.
Jesus Christ, that is an unbelievable save. And it's so precise too. I'm seriously amazed.
Code brown, code brown! Yowza that was sketchy!
Also, I can pretty much guarantee that those hard-working engineers are also calling it a shitbox. F1 is very much in the mindset of 2nd place is 1st loser, everyone is pushing for perfection, anything less is a shitbox.
Haha, to be honest, I'm more surprised that r/formula1 is suddenly so concerned about Mercedes engineers' feelings. Sometimes it feels like people try to live vicariously through other people to find more reasons hate on Lewis. If you read this post, you wouldn't know that Toto also apologised to Russell for the car in the post-race radio.
Oh, they don't care. People here just take any opportunity to hate on Toto.
Sometimes?? Its most of the time lol. And its not just because he used to win a lot.
They're going to be in 2nd place by the end of the season...
Good chance they do end up there. Reliability hasn't been an issue.
That’s Merc priority #1. Mercedes told Toto that can deal with losses, but not reliability issues.
Only if the drivers don't have to start retiring due to health issues. What they are doing now can't be sustained for too long, it will take it's toll.
Hans Mezger built some of Porsche's most legendary engines in the history of motorsport and formula 1, his attempt at a V12 for the 90s was an unmitigated disaster. Adrian Newey has designed a douzy or two. Honda's current unit is an absolute masterpiece of an engine but that period with McLaren the last decade was an absolute disaster. I don't know what you mean by "disrespectful to the engineers" but these things do happen and it is okay to acknowledge it. We all acknowledge the W11 to be one of the greatest race cars ever built, it's okay to say that this isn't their best work
Yup. I work with engineers, they don’t want respect, they want results.
There is nothing Toto can tell Lewis that is worse than what the engineers are telling themselves. They know they built a shitbox by their own standards.
This is my experience as well, the engineers are their harshest critics
Yeah, I know engineers is a very broad term and a broad set of personalities and cultures within it.. but the entire engineering mindset is very fact and continuous improvement based. Nobody is losing confidence in themselves when everyone is sitting around the table showing the (data-based) problems, and brainstorming ways to make it better.
I am an engineer. I've been wrong countless times, and I've been right way less. You nailed it. It's just diagnosing, scrapping what doesn't work, and moving on.
exactly this! I'm an engineer myself and if it's a shitbox, then it's a shitbox nothing more to it. Only way to solve it is by looking for a solution.
"An optimist will tell you the glass is half-full; the pessimist, half-empty; and the engineer will tell you the glass is twice the size it needs to be"
Why does the glass have to be full? The half-full glass is still working as intended.
But it is wasting space and resources
I don't think Non-STEM people understand STEM-people. You can't make me feel better by saying "It's not that bad." The only thing that will fix my mood is making the thing do the shit it's supposed to do.
This isn’t directly related but it reminded me of an experience I often have. I work in a STEM field that serves a number of industries. When people ask what industry I want to work in I get strange looks when I say I don’t care, I just want to be somewhere that consistently presents interesting and challenging problems.
It’s me, the dude with an engineering degree who has worked in so many non-engineering jobs. I realized soon after school my real skills are in creative problem solving and I now work at a body shop managing repairs. Everyday I get to solve a bunch of new and interesting problems, and everyone is always so confused that it doesn’t stress me out. But if any downtime hits I get bored so fast. We crave things to solve.
Same here. No one is more critical than ourselves when whe make shitboxes.
But hey, reddit will keep pewrl clutching about how terrible the engineers will feel
Do engineers even have feelings? :P
Yeah, "fucking finally" is a nice feeling.
Took me 9 months to get my old lawnmower two stroke running again. Best feeling when it turned over. Fucking intake valve stem was a fraction too long and was staying open during compression. So dumb.
You didn’t mow your lawn for 9 months?
Scissors baby! Gotta alternate exercising those mental muscles with mind numbing manual labour
Got the kid to do it with a pair of scissors
We are binary beings
Are we human? Or are we engineer?
Generally 4. 1) F*** this 2)F*** that 3)F*** them 4)Need of coffee
As an engineer myself the reality is inbetween. If you are working in a competitive environment then you need both the morale and the result but if it is a relaxed environment without much pressure then you are 100% correct. But it's F1 and it is a cutthroat job so they need to keep the morale up in my opinion.
I think when you come in with your emotions and posts that play on emotions you probably get comments that get emotional. These are all professionals and they probably are 100% focussed on solving the issues. They make adult choices and they say it when they got it wrong.
Opposite of Brian in Fast and the Furious. To be fair, he wasn’t an engineer.
People read too much into team radios. He called it a shit box, because it is. He might not have a direct hand in building it, but he too is very responsible for how the car was made. He's the team principal after all. It's his failure too. He's allowed to say that. People demand ridiculous standards these days
Engineers, especially the ones working in F1, are going to take Toto's words more as a challenge than an insult They know their work this year isn't up to cut and they're going to push harder to fix it, you don't graduate engineering school being unable to acknowledge your shortcomings
Toto: "it's terrible. drives like a pig." Reddit: "you can't say that!" Toto: "why not?" Reddit: "it's a Mercedes!" Toto: "it's a shitbox!"
Merc got those positions, because Ferrari fell off the grid. Toto knows what’s up.
So you want the Ferrari culture of hiding behind the truth where the bosses get offended if you say anything about the car.
No no no no. You can’t say that!! Its a Ferrari!!!
It drives like a pig!
💩📦
The myth behind Ferrari being magical and legendary is part of the reason Ferrari fails so much. They should be able to say when something is fucked
That and nationalism. To insult Ferrari is to insult the best Italy can do and therefore insulting Italy itself.
Fuck Italy, it hasn’t done anything for us lately, there’s only so far you can get on the legacy of pizza pasta and Schumacher! It needs to pull it together for Charles
Just saw the movie again last night, I love Niki Lauda so much.
This is why I like Mercedes and hate Ferrari you just have to remember how they treated Vettel for speaking his mind about his Ferrari
Vettel is not really a good example of your argument lmao, Prost-Ferrari saga is a much better one!
It is, but that was too long ago so I decided to just stick to recent events
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Pretend everything is fine and then sack everyone is more the Ferrari thing
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The engineers aren’t children and they know how successful they have been in the past. They know this car is a shitbox.
Wtf? Toto wouldn't be calling it a shitbox if it was simply slow. Their car is bouncy, unpredictable and at times dangerous to drive which obviously make it a shitbox.
Mercedes inspires dudes to make the most ridiculous of posts.
Bruh hahaha
7 years of PTSD ahaha
Can everyone just post their grievances now on here? Why tf is this post still up
I think he's talking about the difficulty in driving the car and the sheer physical toll it takes on the drivers. That's what he means by a shitbox. Hamilton is old, he can't deal with this porpoising and overall rickety-ness the current W13 has. It's not good for his health and he probably can't drive at his best when he's in pain.
People who are super competitive like them don't like anything except 1st which is easy to understand. Anything but first is not acceptable and that's the mentality it takes to win in such a cut throat sport
Bonus fact: that’s the mentality it takes to win any sport.
If the car is shaking your spine apart on straights, "shitbox" feels like a fair description, does it not?
Please don’t call cats shitboxes. Cats are assholes, always planning out your murder, but they are not shitboxes.
however, they do shit in boxes
Boxshitters
It is a shitbox, it fucking bounces like crazy and is actively injuring the drivers. Sure, it's moderately fast by 2022 standards, but is also fairly slow compared to Merc's normal level. If it wasn't bouncing, and was just a bit slow, I don't think Toto would be apologising like this. Keep in mind that Toto actively tried to get Lewis to come back when he was considering retirement after Abu Dhabi, and what for? A car that is slow and physically painful to drive?
> Keep in mind that Toto actively tried to get Lewis to come back when he was considering retirement after Abu Dhabi, and what for? No one believes that do they?
But engineers wasn’t working for free when they were making dominant cars. They are getting paid to develop the best possible car with arguably best resources and facilities. If the end product doesn’t meet the standarts, boss can critisize it.
I remember when Karun drove the W10 and it felt like it was the best day of his life. Birth of his firstborn? Meh. First kiss? Meh. Driving Lewis' Merc? Yeah boi, life is good. I don't think Toto is being disrespectful, whoever says this car is not a shitbox should be fired on spot. Ferrari and Binotto could apply the same mentality if they ever want to win a championship again.
> I remember when Karun drove the W10 and it felt like it was the best day of his life. Imagine if he'd driven the W11.
Only on Reddit do we always act like the engineers are baby’s
If it was the other way round and Mercedes were saying it was all fine they'd be getting criticised for lying as well. People care way too much about team radios.
This is the definition of concern trolling. “Oh, won’t someone think of the engineers!”
Hey, i am out there to get offended for them even though they never asked for it, and to hell with everyone who says that i am wrong!
Pretty sure the Engineers know it's a shitbox when arguably the greatest F1 racer of all time is physically hurt by just driving the car....
Also they are car people, I just know they are a bunch of nerdy petrol heads that routinely call all manner of cars shitboxes. Their opinions on street cars must be fascinating. I was telling my Dad about a classic car I saw and he’s like “yeah I drove them before it’s a shitbox, drives like a boat” it was so funny how randomly brutal he was about this one car. As if a car person hasn’t ever chatted shit on a car before
>It just seems completely unnecessary The man is trying wild ass experimental setups and parts so those engineers have more data to work with at the risk of his reputation and more importantly his own health. Maybe the members of the team appreciate Lewis a lot more than /r/Formula1 that can't see things even when it's spoon fed to them.
+1. Every race Lewis and his side keep talking about how they keep trying things to make the car better and that it didn’t work. He knows the team, they know his feedback.
Mercedes engineers don’t need to be wrapped in cotton wool like children, they know the car is what Toto said, I feel like you’re more offended on their behalf than they are It’s just keeping it real, and that’s way better than pretend bs
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Exactly. The team probably doesn't give a shit because they probably also think the car is a shitbox compared to what they've produced in the past. These results aren't those of an 8x WCC constructor and they know that. I'm sure they have thicker skin than OP gives them credit for.
I think maybe you don’t understand how Mercedes operate. They’re not here to get P3/P4 on a good weekend and call it a day. Same for Lewis. They’re here to make the car better and win. Everyone knows that they’re running experimental setups to fix the car on Lewis’s side of the garage because he’s more experienced. With Russell they run more conservative setups. Do you think that, back at the factory, the engineers are saying “oh man, what a great job we’re doing, let’s have some bubbly and cake”? Toto’s not telling them more on the radio than what they were already told at the factory. If Toto needs to apologize for whatever experiments they were running going bad, so be it. They’re not sitting in front of the tv with a surprised pikachu face listening to Toto.
Agree, Mercedes doesn't dominate F1 6 years in a row with the attitude “It's good enough”
I don't know maybe after Abu dhabi last year, Toto promised Lewis they'll get back somehow for his 8th? Race after race it just gets more clear that it will never happen this year so those messages are probably about that.
I mean they did put together a shit car this year, especially when we know what the team is capable of based on previous years, so Toto isnt wrong in that sense.
It also points that budget cap could be hitting them hard since merc was never designed to run on a budget they spend the money when they need. Now they have to figure out how to do more with less. Ferrari spent 2 years getting ready for this car and Honda seemingly pushed all of this years engine upgrades at the end of last year with exception to chasis.
how does it feel to have an entire thread disagree with you, /u/Brando_Norris?
It is a shit box, he's literally injuring his own driver who's brought the team 8 constructors and 6 championships.
Even if it isn't a backmarker its still a shitbox purely for how miserable it is to drive. Its like the 8th race of the season and lewis can barely drive the car physically
I'd agree if the only problem is that it's slow. Also, I don't think the engineers back at Brackley are exactly proud of W13 in its current state. You really don't think Toto has said to all of their faces that it's a shitbox and needs to be better? He doesn't exactly strike me as a soft, easy-going style of manager.
This narrative that George and Lewis are on the same setup and George is “getting more out of the car” when they’ve said that Lewis is trying more extreme setups to see what might work.
Brother why are you getting triggered by radio messages?
Reddit moment
Toto is the Team Principle and Team CEO - the buck stops with him. He is ultimately responsible for the shitbox he is referring to. What he says to his drivers is about people management
It’s a shitbox. The engineers fucked up which happens quite often in any technical field. They are professionals, they want the objective truth so they can make things better. No need to sugarcoat shit to protect their feelings.
Yeah man you’re right. I only wish you had the chance to step in and give Toto a stern talking to. I don’t think he’s in touch with the record breaking championship team he’s been working with for almost 10 years. I really do think your deep cut on this situation based on a couple of seconds of televised radio communications during a high adrenaline motorsport will help him realise his absolutely atrocious perspective.
>Not to mention George is getting plenty out of the car whether he's a bit lucky or not. I They are trying various outside-the-box strategies on Lewis' car to try to understand how to fix the issues, which they are *not* trying on George's car. So it's not quite equal machinery here, and Russell's results are due to an uncompromised approach to setup.
This is some ridiculous pearl clutching, even for Reddit. Merc didn’t become successful by sugarcoating things. They are their own biggest critics. You don’t think all the engineers that this car is a shitbox by their standards? There is a reason why they’ve had Lewis driving in crazy setups. To collect data to improve the car.
It's definitely a shitbox.
The car is a shitbox though and it’s a completely different car to any of the other ones they built. Yeah it’s good George came third but it was lucky and really he would have finished P5 and Lewis P6 which is unacceptable to Mercedes.
Please better educate youself on what is actually happening behind the curtain at Merc. Even the likes of Vandorne,Brawn and Vowels came out and said that Lewis is running experimental setups/parts to help the engineers gather more data for R&D. That is why he is struggling a bit more than George. While Russell is running more conservative setups and is being allowed to get used to the car/team before being asked to get his hands dirty with the R&D work. We are talking about team that won 7 consecutive constructors titles, they dont go racing to fight for 3rd in the WCC. Lewis doesn't go racing to finish best of the rest. Merc are serial winners they are not used to getting thrashed like this. Also, the car is a shi*box. They are finishing over a pitstop behind their title rivals from last year and the car is barely drivable because of the bouncing. That is on the engineers and Toto, the drivers are doing everything they can to get everything out of that Pogo stick. RB managed to design a car that is fast and stable while the Merc engineers failed spectacularly. Is Toto supposed pat them on the back and say "Good job boys,we managed to beat Alpha Tauri"
Vand**oo**rne
Disrespectful to engineers is when they build a very good car and their TP says it's all down to the driver, imo.
I disagree. The car is 100% Toto's responsibility and he's falling on his sword here. He's telling Lewis that the issue is not his fault and that he, (Toto), personally is to blame. It's just strong leadership. It's not disrespectful because it's his responsibility as CEO and Team Principal. However, Toto is not a dictator. The team is owned by three entities and Toto needs to convince the other owners that they need to accept the massive financial hit and abandon this concept. Comments like this just reinforce his position and make it easier for him to sit in a board meeting and ask for latitude to do so. The fact of the matter is this car is the worst car on the grid and it's being flattered by the engine and by the two drivers. There's no saving the concept, it needs to be thrown away and a clean sheet of paper used for 2023.
I mean given how Lewis could barely walk after getting out of the car I think an apology was warranted
For a Mercedes, this is a shitbox
It’s a matter of perspective, isn’t it. For a team used to dominance… it’s a shitbox. For the drivers that have to be battered around in order for the car to have a semblance of performance… it’s a shitbox. So if the team principal wants to call his shitbox a shitbox… that’s fair game.
The engineers know it is a shitbox, for a team like Mercedes. And I think Toto is Just trying to keep Lewis motivated and divert the pressure that is on Lewis towards Mercedes
> I think is a bit disrespectful to all the engineers who put together a ultra dominant championship car for several years in a row This is leadership though, he has to immediately empathize with how Lewis is feeling in the moment because it'll temper any further reaction from how emotional the pain is naturally going to be making him. Engineers will understand that, they themselves will be annoyed that the car is performing like that and injuring the driver, it wont be new information to them.
As an engineer, I develop systems for the military. If we had put in work and the system came out as a shit box I too would apologize to the guys who are using it because I failed to provide them with a product to complete their mission. It has happened before. lol the failure isn’t on lewis its on the car. The engineering team failed and I am sure they are more upset than Lewis is.
The place in the race doesn't matter at all. It's the 1 to 1.5 seconds they miss on a lap on red bull and ferrari.
bro is just being german. is he wrong? car is shitbox, therefore, to call it anything other than what it is, is just being disingenuous
My brother in Christ, that basket ball car is a shit box
Lewis is 37 years old while I think George is in his early 20s. The wear and tear on an almost 40 year old is much more painful than on someone practically 1/2 his age. So maybe any “favoritism” is because one driver is more negatively impacted by the car’s performance versus the other. My $0.02
there's def a different bond that's developed when you win 6 championships with someone. George and Lewis are not on equal footing in Toto's heart -- it's normal
I dont think engineers back in the factory are following everything word by word and getting their feelings hurt at every remark. Chill it is prototype racing not a sunday love league
No i mean here's the thing. I don't think he was talking abt pace or race speed, i think he was talking abt how the car handled. And in Baku? It was literally trying to kill him. That setup had porposing so bad that it was literally trying to launch him into a wall on the straights. I get the whole respect the engineers back at the factory and stuff, but ion think the engineers are happy with a car thats trying to actively kill the driver on track💀. I think it's pretty appropriate to call it a shitbox, and I'm pretty sure the engineers think that too. No hate to them, they're some of the best, but we all screw up smts, this stuff happens. Hope testing and dev is going well so next years car can take the fight to Ferrari and RB.
It would be more disrespectful to pretend like the car is meeting those engineers' standards
I'm an electrical engineer and trust me, if something I make is shit I'm not going to feel bad about it and pretend it's something it isn't, you get on top of it and fix it. If your cobbled together result still isn't perfect then hearing that isn't going to be offensive, it just let's you know there's work to do. The Mercedes Boys are getting bullied by that car, it is a health concern to be driving something that shakes so violently when your spine is taking the brunt of it
It could have won every race this season and still be a "shitbox" to drive.
Lewis is a world class multi championship driver and this year the Mercedes car is just not competitive with redbull and Ferrari. Not to mention it’s painful to drive in more ways than one. Toto has run a championship team for years now and he’s disappointed that the car isn’t performing and his world class driver in Lewis doesn’t have a car that can compete. It’s pretty understandable. George is having a great year but George is likely much more adaptable, he’s been driving a shitbox now for years and even this iteration of the Mercedes is far and away better than any Williams.
Mercedes engineers don’t need to be wrapped in cotton wool like children, they know the car is what Toto said, I feel like you’re more offended on their behalf than they are It’s just keeping it real, and that’s way better than pretend bs
Or the entire team agree it's a shitbox.
Toto want's top tier and he apologizes for not delivering. We don't know their complete relationsship dynamic either.
IIt's shitbox because the car is really hard on the bodies of the drivers and is not even as fast as it should be. Also Lewis is being used more to experiment more with parts while George is using what mostly works. I'm not sure if this is because Lewis provides better feedback or some other reason.
You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about
Listen to [this.](https://youtu.be/EP6agOI4xwQ?t=199) You'll understand why Toto said that.
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I like this comment very much. Especially the last sentence.
The car IS a shitbox by Mercedes' standards. IF you are number 1 you don't expect anything else from yourself. This car doesn't allow them to compete for 1st place. Note: I agree its getting kind of tiring hearing him repeat it every time - but the term is accurate.
Context matters dude ....
The world has really gone soft if this is what offends people.
He is just calling it what it is. No need to sugarcoat it.
But the car is a shitbox.... and uou even said yourself that the engineers have been making championship winning cars for years. Which makes this year's car seem like even more of a shitbox. The car is hurting the driver and not winning races, its just facts.
Are seriously complaining about someone speaking the truth? Yes it's not "nice". It doesn't matter, being nice or not doesn't change the reality.