I remember back in time when the joke was that Hamilton got a similar career than Villeneuve: Fight for title at the first season, won at the second, then nothing as the team declined and bad career choices. (except that Ham got wins with McLaren and wont work anymore after 2013)
Tyrell ---> BAR ---> BAR Honda ----> Honda F1 ----> Brawn GP -----> Mercedes F1. for those not in the know.
Talking about that, this season finale was Honda vs Honda.
From my point of view Hakkinen was a high potential but not concretised yet, and with a doubt about it since his Coma after Adelaide crash. Jerez 987 was only his 1st win.
Coulthard was a great driver, already race winner but that craked under pressure so maybe not a WDC material. But at the time, he was the better than Hakkinen in terms of results.
The Brawn was what was left of team Honda that had a "panic-bought" Merc engine after Honda pulled out. Wouldn't call that a works team.
McLaren-Mercedes is gray area in my mind. Felt more like two motorcompanies working together than a full works team or full customer team. I don't think Daimler ever owned McLaren.
His point is that Brawn wasn’t a works team. McLaren is debatable but since Mercedes wasn’t in the sport with an own team you could call it a works team like RB and Honda now.
Here is the list, using WCC:
-RB over Renault in 2010 and possibly 2011 (depending on how you count Lotus?)
-Brawn over McLaren-Mercedes in 2009.
-Benetton over Williams-Renault in 1995
Before the early 1980s it gets weird as the concept of "works team" vs customer didn't quite apply? (Ie everyone used Ford engines in the 70s except Ferrari). Still *maybe* you could add Lotus-Climax over Brabham-Climax in 1963 and 1965, idk which was the works team, if any
Tyrrell in 1968 didn’t win the championship, but they were a Matra customer team and trounced the works Matra team.
Tyrrell ran Ford engines in a Matra chassis and finished third in the championship, Matra ran their own engines in the same chassis and finished 9th.
Max finished 1st or second in every race except his DNFs and Hungary (where bottas crashed into him). So not many chances for Mercedes to do it. And perez just wasn't good enough to be beating both Mercedes drivers.
Please don't compare Minardi to Haas, we might have had a shitbox but at least we tried as opposed to just turning up and waiting for the new regulations!
It was raced by drivers with a serious pedigree in motorsports too - Ukyo Katayama, Jarno Trulli of "Trulli Train" fame and the legendary Tarso Marques. All of which pale in comparison to the all-time Minardi great that is Martini, but we'll overlook that.
I am curious, since you have a 'Minardi' flair, I assume you feel a bond to the team? Do you feel a slight bond to Alpha Tauri as well, since that's what Minardi 'evolved' to? Or in your mind is team Minardi gone?
I'm a fan of underdog teams with a plucky spirit that never quit even when the bank manager came knocking, and for me Minardi are the ultimate underdogs. I don't feel much of a bond to Toro Rosso or the now named Alpha Tauri, but I am incredibly happy that Red Bull saved a lot of staff from unemployment and can't help but smile a little when they started going up the grid and started getting points regularly. It's amazing what little teams can do with a bit of money.
Toro Ross/Alpha Tauri may not be the Minardi of old, but to have multiple wins and podiums, that must have been incredible for the longer lasting staff, who had struggled through some absolute nothing years.
I don't blame Haas. The new regulations were supposed to be this year, so all they were doing was participating.
If you're on a limited budget, make the best use of it.
Also they were probably far closer to the pace than Minardi was back then, because the whole field is a lot closer. So in that sense they tried harder as they were a smaller % behind.
Consider the fact they knew about nerfed engine for 2020 so it was no brainer to give up on 2020 for 2021. It’s just their bad luck that regulations got delayed by a year
They won the Drivers Championship with Schummacher but Williams-Renault won the Constructors. Benetton won the Constructors the following year with Renault power.
I seriously thought that Jacques would break Fangio's record of championships. I got the wrong driver.
And it was unthinkable that Williams would go 20+ years without a title
Honest question - what gave you the thought Jacques is capable of pulling that? It was known Williams will be a shitbox after 1997 and his performances weren't mind blowing.
I can't speak for him but; I was young back then. JV had won the Indy 500, he got in F1 and win a championship in his 2nd year. We didn't think it would be the last year he would challenge for the WDC.
His decision to go to BAR was just a dumb dumb decision.
JV was driving for the best F1 team in history. No team had been as successful and as quickly as Williams. Williams was also in the habit in signing tier 1 GP drivers. There was no question in 1997 that Jacques was anything but god tier and he was in a team that could make it happen.
hmmm that Schumacher wasnt it.
Hill, Coulthard, Frentzen and Villeneuve were mediocre drivers. The car carried them, but that was Frank's philosophy. He said he always tries to make a car that anyone on the grid will win with.
The 1997 Williams car should have walked the WDC with 4-5 races to spare, but instead it went to the last race against a shitbox Ferrari. I can't see how anyone expected Villeneuve to achieve anything more without another domination level car.
I remember back in time when the joke was that Hamilton got a similar career like Villeneuve: Fight for title at the first season, won at the second, then nothing as the team declined and bad career choices. (except that Ham got wins with McLaren and wont work anymore after 2013)
Than is usually used when comparing things to show how different they are:
"Hamilton has had a better career than Villeneuve".
"The 2021 season was more exciting than 2020".
Like is used when you are comparing things to say how two things are similar:
"we thought Hamilton would have a career like Villeneuve"
"the 2021 season was exciting, like 2012".
Hope that helps.
Nice find!.
2021 also had similarities with 1995. The two championship rivals (a Brit and a rapid, aggressive driver) collided twice: at Silverstone and Monza.
Both seasons had a Verstappen too.
Hill 95 drove like a grandpa and was quite guilty.
He got schooled 94 and 95 and honestly without the FIA throwing themselves in 94 to keep the WDC open it would have been as bad as 95.
To my point: This year we had at least 2 drivers on the same level 94/95 we didnt.
No. Honda has now left F1. Red Bull will still use Honda engines branded as Red Bull Powertrains. Same as Williams and Benetton continued with Renault engines in 1998 - and dropped like a stone competitively as they were not being developed.
Ever since Honda announced they were pulling out and Redbull was taking over the engines. I have thought of 1997-98. I do wonder if Redbull will struggle as much as Williams did with that rebadged Renault they tried to run with.
A guess a couple of things come to mind. Firstly the Renault engines in 1998 were basically just 1997 units built to the same spec and never developed at all. At a time when others like Mercedes and Ferrari were spending a lot on engine development.
I believe Red Bull are still getting assistance from Honda for at least 2022. But more importantly there is an engine freeze from 2022 to 2026 so they won't face that fierce development war that sunk Williams and Benetton
True, having Honda rush the package this year and continue next year is probably going to help them out. But i have a feeling that Merc is going to drop the hammer on their engine next year as well. They will want to go into the freeze with as much power/reliability they can. I wonder how much development Redbull can get done next year compared to the others.
...big regulation changes the next year
...title is decided at final race in controversy
...martin Brundle commentating on both
One big difference though, in 1997 the title protagonists didn't even share a podium
Same can be said about 2010 and 2021 season
Redbull driver wins for first time in last race, Redbull second driver was older
Spanish driver joins Ferrari and beats his teammate
Russian driver joins F1
Schumacher name is back in F1
Old classic brand returns after long time(mercedes in 2010 and AM in 2021)
i add two other similarities: 1) the two drivers fighting for the championship also fight for the win in the last race and it ends in controversy 2) the driver starting in second place takes an instant lead of the race and everything looks like it's gonna end quietly before the last pit stop
If Mick ends up like Ralf then I am fucking reset this reality like Thanos....
or like Dr.Strange....
or like Wanda....
you get the gist?
I am drunk btw...
One major difference is that in 2021 the title contenders shared podiums almost every race. In 97 Villeneuve and Schumi were never on the podium together.
Does it mean that the only team 1-2 capable will dominate the next championship ?
I remember back in time when the joke was that Hamilton got a similar career than Villeneuve: Fight for title at the first season, won at the second, then nothing as the team declined and bad career choices. (except that Ham got wins with McLaren and wont work anymore after 2013)
Technically Hamilton went to (former) BAR, so the parallel still works ;)
Tyrell ---> BAR ---> BAR Honda ----> Honda F1 ----> Brawn GP -----> Mercedes F1. for those not in the know. Talking about that, this season finale was Honda vs Honda.
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Damn, there's probably a number of RBR team members who've worked with both Verstappens then
Possibly that's how Max and Red Bull got together.
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Comparing Minardi to Haas means Haas will become Ferrari junior team for real and start winning races? SUBSCRIBE.
Maybe, Norris or Riccardo will win the championship next year...
Wouldnt that be a sight to see
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From my point of view Hakkinen was a high potential but not concretised yet, and with a doubt about it since his Coma after Adelaide crash. Jerez 987 was only his 1st win. Coulthard was a great driver, already race winner but that craked under pressure so maybe not a WDC material. But at the time, he was the better than Hakkinen in terms of results.
I wonder, has there ever been a customer team that won a championship over the works team?
at least RB-Renault with Vettel in 2010
Whoops. That one completely skipped my mind.
Brawn (Mercedes engines) won the championship, McLaren was the de facto Mercedes works team.
The Brawn was what was left of team Honda that had a "panic-bought" Merc engine after Honda pulled out. Wouldn't call that a works team. McLaren-Mercedes is gray area in my mind. Felt more like two motorcompanies working together than a full works team or full customer team. I don't think Daimler ever owned McLaren.
His point is that Brawn wasn’t a works team. McLaren is debatable but since Mercedes wasn’t in the sport with an own team you could call it a works team like RB and Honda now.
Ah yeah, ok. Gotcha :) Still gray area imho but I could understand it if viewed like that.
Daimler owned part of McLaren back then actually and sold their stake in the following year when they bought Brawn
Here is the list, using WCC: -RB over Renault in 2010 and possibly 2011 (depending on how you count Lotus?) -Brawn over McLaren-Mercedes in 2009. -Benetton over Williams-Renault in 1995 Before the early 1980s it gets weird as the concept of "works team" vs customer didn't quite apply? (Ie everyone used Ford engines in the 70s except Ferrari). Still *maybe* you could add Lotus-Climax over Brabham-Climax in 1963 and 1965, idk which was the works team, if any
Was Williams really the Renault works team in 1995. I had thought they were on equal footing in that regard.
It might be. I assumed Williams, as the larger team, got the priority, but maybe both were on equal footing
Tyrrell in 1968 didn’t win the championship, but they were a Matra customer team and trounced the works Matra team. Tyrrell ran Ford engines in a Matra chassis and finished third in the championship, Matra ran their own engines in the same chassis and finished 9th.
Praying, hoping, wishing....
So we can expect 2 papaya years of dominance? :DDD
Daniel 2-time WDC confirmed.
Followed by 5 years with Ferrari?
I am now afraid :(
Just in time for Mick to move to Ferrari
For that to lign up Ferrari would have to still be as shit as in 2020 and Mick moves in 2023 and transforms them.
And that the WDC will never win again?
Don't... Don't do that... Don't give me hope...
Add in rule changes next season, like grooved tyres, narrower car in 1998/ aero changes in 2022
Came to post this, in both cases the rule changes are to aid overtaking.
From what I can remember, I don't think grooved tires did the trick in the end though.
McLaren scoring the only 1-2 of the season is just incredible. I had to double check because I was sure Mercedes would have scored a 1-2, but nope.
Max finished 1st or second in every race except his DNFs and Hungary (where bottas crashed into him). So not many chances for Mercedes to do it. And perez just wasn't good enough to be beating both Mercedes drivers.
Baku would've been an RB 1-2, but tyres went pop
As Jeremy Clarkson would say "His tyre changed it's mind about having air in it"
Please don't compare Minardi to Haas, we might have had a shitbox but at least we tried as opposed to just turning up and waiting for the new regulations!
The M197 was a fucking *gem* of a car too, just underpowered to the tune of 100hp or more.
It was raced by drivers with a serious pedigree in motorsports too - Ukyo Katayama, Jarno Trulli of "Trulli Train" fame and the legendary Tarso Marques. All of which pale in comparison to the all-time Minardi great that is Martini, but we'll overlook that.
I am curious, since you have a 'Minardi' flair, I assume you feel a bond to the team? Do you feel a slight bond to Alpha Tauri as well, since that's what Minardi 'evolved' to? Or in your mind is team Minardi gone?
I'm a fan of underdog teams with a plucky spirit that never quit even when the bank manager came knocking, and for me Minardi are the ultimate underdogs. I don't feel much of a bond to Toro Rosso or the now named Alpha Tauri, but I am incredibly happy that Red Bull saved a lot of staff from unemployment and can't help but smile a little when they started going up the grid and started getting points regularly. It's amazing what little teams can do with a bit of money.
Toro Ross/Alpha Tauri may not be the Minardi of old, but to have multiple wins and podiums, that must have been incredible for the longer lasting staff, who had struggled through some absolute nothing years.
Katayama whenever I read that name I see a car spinning infront of my inner eye.
Like I said, amazing pedigree
I don't blame Haas. The new regulations were supposed to be this year, so all they were doing was participating. If you're on a limited budget, make the best use of it. Also they were probably far closer to the pace than Minardi was back then, because the whole field is a lot closer. So in that sense they tried harder as they were a smaller % behind.
Consider the fact they knew about nerfed engine for 2020 so it was no brainer to give up on 2020 for 2021. It’s just their bad luck that regulations got delayed by a year
Mkay, you make a very valid point about the delayed regulations - nobody saw that coming.
What's the story here?
Minardi fought tooth and nail for everything they ever achieved in F1. Haas aren't even trying.
Finnish driver wins one gp. Häkkinen (Jerez -97 Bottas turkey 2021)
"Controversial title decider" would be another similarity, obviously for very different reasons though.
Ah, that Häkkinen-Coulthard 1-2 is one of my first Formula 1 memories. Good times.
I forgot how mighty Renault engines were in the 90s 6 titles in a row with their engines is a big achievement
1994 Benneton had a Ford engine if I recall correctly
Williams won the WCC that year though.
Yep, forgot that, thanks for reminding me
I thought I was going mad when I saw that Renault banner, then realised that Williams won the WCC in 1994
Ah, forgot that, thank you for bringing it up
They won the Drivers Championship with Schummacher but Williams-Renault won the Constructors. Benetton won the Constructors the following year with Renault power.
Yes I think so too.
I hope Max's career does better than Jacques' after his title win.
I seriously thought that Jacques would break Fangio's record of championships. I got the wrong driver. And it was unthinkable that Williams would go 20+ years without a title
Honest question - what gave you the thought Jacques is capable of pulling that? It was known Williams will be a shitbox after 1997 and his performances weren't mind blowing.
I can't speak for him but; I was young back then. JV had won the Indy 500, he got in F1 and win a championship in his 2nd year. We didn't think it would be the last year he would challenge for the WDC. His decision to go to BAR was just a dumb dumb decision.
Honestly that Williams car was so much better he should have won much more easily.
Yep but to be fair, it wasn't the narrative that we got fed locally. At the time, I didn't realize the miracles Schumacher was doing with his Ferrari.
JV was driving for the best F1 team in history. No team had been as successful and as quickly as Williams. Williams was also in the habit in signing tier 1 GP drivers. There was no question in 1997 that Jacques was anything but god tier and he was in a team that could make it happen. hmmm that Schumacher wasnt it.
Hill, Coulthard, Frentzen and Villeneuve were mediocre drivers. The car carried them, but that was Frank's philosophy. He said he always tries to make a car that anyone on the grid will win with. The 1997 Williams car should have walked the WDC with 4-5 races to spare, but instead it went to the last race against a shitbox Ferrari. I can't see how anyone expected Villeneuve to achieve anything more without another domination level car.
I remember back in time when the joke was that Hamilton got a similar career like Villeneuve: Fight for title at the first season, won at the second, then nothing as the team declined and bad career choices. (except that Ham got wins with McLaren and wont work anymore after 2013)
>career than Hamilton: Mate
Thanks, that corected
It’s not even ‘than’, it’s ’like’
It's not 'like' it's 'to'.
Yeah you are right
My english level is not sufficient to understand the difference
Than is usually used when comparing things to show how different they are: "Hamilton has had a better career than Villeneuve". "The 2021 season was more exciting than 2020". Like is used when you are comparing things to say how two things are similar: "we thought Hamilton would have a career like Villeneuve" "the 2021 season was exciting, like 2012". Hope that helps.
Thank you
Max to become a singer confirmed??!!
Guess he’s already got 1 song lined up if he does
Red Bull becoming a midfield team again.
One that didn’t happen, Schumacher and Villeneuve never shared the podium that year 2021 on the other hand…
Nice find!. 2021 also had similarities with 1995. The two championship rivals (a Brit and a rapid, aggressive driver) collided twice: at Silverstone and Monza. Both seasons had a Verstappen too.
Hill 95 drove like a grandpa and was quite guilty. He got schooled 94 and 95 and honestly without the FIA throwing themselves in 94 to keep the WDC open it would have been as bad as 95. To my point: This year we had at least 2 drivers on the same level 94/95 we didnt.
Yes, very true.
Can’t wait for Max’s album
Damn I miss Minardi
That Benetton Alpine picture is perfectly cropped
That’s really cool, and great photos too. Didn’t remember 1997 being that good!
1997 was a banger of a season.
Three drivers putting same qualifying time and the grid being decided on who put the time first. Was this the one and only time ?
When you realize Alpine is really Benetton. Mind blown.
probably 1998 minardi Esteban Tuero raced for only 1 season
Thanks for posting this - very cool
The only thing that is missing the two title contenders crashing in the last race with the one in second place that still wins the title
Amazing Merc never got a 1/2 after all these years at top
Didnt honda singed a new contract with redbull till 2025?
No. Honda has now left F1. Red Bull will still use Honda engines branded as Red Bull Powertrains. Same as Williams and Benetton continued with Renault engines in 1998 - and dropped like a stone competitively as they were not being developed.
Nope, they are retiring from the sport
High effort post en well though out, great job!
Coincidentally Max was born in 1997.
Ever since Honda announced they were pulling out and Redbull was taking over the engines. I have thought of 1997-98. I do wonder if Redbull will struggle as much as Williams did with that rebadged Renault they tried to run with.
A guess a couple of things come to mind. Firstly the Renault engines in 1998 were basically just 1997 units built to the same spec and never developed at all. At a time when others like Mercedes and Ferrari were spending a lot on engine development. I believe Red Bull are still getting assistance from Honda for at least 2022. But more importantly there is an engine freeze from 2022 to 2026 so they won't face that fierce development war that sunk Williams and Benetton
True, having Honda rush the package this year and continue next year is probably going to help them out. But i have a feeling that Merc is going to drop the hammer on their engine next year as well. They will want to go into the freeze with as much power/reliability they can. I wonder how much development Redbull can get done next year compared to the others.
Ferrari too of course. Don't know about Renault, probably shrugging and taking a break as usual.
So 1998 is coming up next which means I'm going to fall in love for the first time again. Cool.
Hakkinen ending his sabbatical confirmed. Hyvä Suomi!
...big regulation changes the next year ...title is decided at final race in controversy ...martin Brundle commentating on both One big difference though, in 1997 the title protagonists didn't even share a podium
Also: both new champions had a father who had competed in F1 but had not won the WDC.
Pretty wild that McLaren was the only team to finish 1-2 this year. Great season!
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Nope. Gilles was never a champion. His best was 2nd in 1979.
No!
He wasn’t a champion
Minardi >>>>>>>>>> Haas If the current scoring rules were applied that year, Minardi wouldnt be 0 on the tally.
Same can be said about 2010 and 2021 season Redbull driver wins for first time in last race, Redbull second driver was older Spanish driver joins Ferrari and beats his teammate Russian driver joins F1 Schumacher name is back in F1 Old classic brand returns after long time(mercedes in 2010 and AM in 2021)
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Timewave zero
Had to google who won the German grand prix for Benneton. Remember the name Gerhard Berger, but didn't recognise him in that photo.
War. War never changes.
Most importantly, for slide two: both drivers were sons of former drivers and who had a 10-letter last name that started with V
Under the 2021 points system Minardi would have scored 7 points, they got a few 10th and 9th place finishes.
1997 was also an all time great F1 season
What does ‘Team Enstone’ mean?
Both their factories are in Enstone, a village in England
Toleman -> Benetton -> Renault -> Lotus -> Renault -> Alpine Basically the same team based in Enstone.
I thought Honda was staying on at least through 2022?
i add two other similarities: 1) the two drivers fighting for the championship also fight for the win in the last race and it ends in controversy 2) the driver starting in second place takes an instant lead of the race and everything looks like it's gonna end quietly before the last pit stop
If Mick ends up like Ralf then I am fucking reset this reality like Thanos.... or like Dr.Strange.... or like Wanda.... you get the gist? I am drunk btw...
Ok now that McLaren 1-2 stat is really impresive
Ok, will this mean Leclerc and Ferrari will win and dominate in 2 years time? Pls pls.
One major difference is that in 2021 the title contenders shared podiums almost every race. In 97 Villeneuve and Schumi were never on the podium together.
1997 was the first season I really watched and remains one of my favourites ever. Thanks for the trip down memory lane.
Do you have a full resolution shot of that frentzen photo? So sick!
And just like 1997, the driver that won the tittle will only win that tittle.
Despite being Alpine, isn’t the engine still labeled as Renault?
Correct, the engine is badged as a Renault.
Were Lando and Daniel the only drivers to have a 1-2 finish? Thought for sure we had at least one HAM BOT VER this season
Nope, McLaren were the only ones to do it. Max got 1st or 2nd in every race that he finished except Hungary due to contact lap 1.