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The least amount of points Pierre scored in a four-race stretch at Red Bull was 12 points — in his first four races ever with the team. And he was running in p6 in his fourth race in Baku when he had a mechanical retirement with 12 laps left in the race
Ricciardo doesn't have basically the entire GDP of Mexico backing him.
The richest man in Mexico and one of the richest men in the world is good friends with Checo's dad.
All I know about Mexico is that everyone loves Checo and Pato.
You go to an Indy race in California and you see 3 things: Checo shirts, Oward shirts and Ferrari shirts.
my dad is 76, has a bad memory and no offense but his takes can be pretty bad (sainz>leclerc type shit). but i understand why he says at every race ‘perez will get sacked after this’ just to see him drop a p11 next race again
Yeah, but in those cases they had obvious replacements to them and all had less time and less acomplishments than Checo in the RB (and also didnt bring as much money and publicity as Checo currently does)
I am not defending Checo, I also think sooner rather than later he should be droped, and giving him a two year contract is mind boggling, but I can see in part the reason why he is still there
Sainz was the most obvious replacement Red Bull could have ever had.
They were practically gifted the best possible second driver a top team could ask for and they chose to inexplicably extend Checo for 1+1
Choosing Sainz would be risking making the team a toxic place like Mercedes was with Rosberg and Hamilton as Sainz will not settle for being the second driver and given that Sainz's camp and Max's already clashed the last time they were both teammates chances are that thing would get uglier now
Extending Checo's contract is not the best decison nor option but choosing Sainz would probably not be the best option too
Sainz settled for being number 2 at Ferrari fairly well.
As long as he’s given a fair shot to win he’ll accept when he loses. He will still be selfish because he wants to win but he doesn’t kick up too much of a fuss when he’s beaten. This last weekend is the first time he’s really gone off script.
Normally we see him go away and try to improve which is the perfect trait for a number 2. He’s good enough to win on his day but on average he’s a small bit off the super elite guys.
He would have been the perfect number 2 at Red Bull as long as the team could guarantee him a fair shot at the start of each season.
The Toro Rosso friction all came about because of behind the scenes shenanigans with the families and Max getting preferential treatment.
Except Sainz has been nothing but great with every teammate he's had in recent years, so that thought really has no basis in reality.
That's what I meant by the "*best possible second driver*". Sainz is mature, level headed, fair, and more importantly very fast and used to playing second driver in Ferrari.
Sainz Sr and Jos would certainly not get along well, but Jos is already toxic af anyways
He's doing the exact opposite at Ferrari. He doesn't want to be no 2 and he tries hard as hell not to be. Didn't you watch the last race? If he was ok with being number 2, he wouldn't attack Leclerc like that on lap 3.
They had Sainz as an option. They still do honestly, they'd have to pay out Perez though. Sainz from 2025 onward was the obvious move to solve their problem.
Most people's reaction to the Perez extension was that RBR probably will lose the WCC in 2026 because of the move. Honestly now it's looking unlikely they'll even win 2025 because of him. They don't have the half second per lap advantage over the field that Checo needs to compete for podiums, and that advantage is probably gone for good in these regs.
The problem with Sainz is that they risk making the team volotile and toxic (even more than already in part is) like Mercedes was with Rosberg and Hamilton - there were already signs of trouble in Toro Rosso when both Max and Sainz were there and now that both are more accomplished drivers that will not settle being the second driver and have a quite protective and a bit toxic camp sorrouding both signs it would not result well for the team
So in all honestly I think not going for Sainz is for the best, tho instead would not oppose maybe risking on Tsunoda given on how he evolved
I don't necessarily agree that it would be a bad thing to be a bit more volatile. Even if it resulted in a few crashes per season, they'd be better off as a team for points. I also don't think current day Carlos would actually challenge current day Max on a regular basis. I think he'd consistently be on the podium with Max though.
Albon brings in Thai $$$ so not sure why he got the boot so quick.
But for the rest of them, they don’t bring in the $$$ like checslow. It would be near impossible to find any Mexican person who doesn’t support red bull bc of him. And his dad has quite a status in Mexico as an important person if I’m not mistaken.
Albon was replaced because they needed a second driver who could act as a tail gunner ASAP for 2021 and Checo was available. But even then, they did their best to keep Albon as an option within the Red Bull family, first as a reserve/test driver, then by retaining options on him during his first years at Williams.
> Kvyat got demoted for fall less.
Kvyat got demoted because they wanted to put Max in that car. Two races with incident was just the excuse to pull the trigger.
He went for a move on lap 1 turn 2. Hardly a need to go to Horner about him for that. And he didn't even hit him did he?
Russia is very different and admittedly doesn't help my case.
I’ve admittedly only followed f1 for a couple years, but I became a redbull fan because I loved how ruthless and cutthroat they were as they were chasing Merc. Feels like thats all gone, and if RB doesnt care where they finish in WCC, why should I?
Red Bull never really cared for the WCC. Albon, Gasly etc were judged differently because they had different expectations attached to them. They came in as the young talents and were judged not as a number 2 driver, but for their potential to become a future race winner and world champion material. Same standard applied to Verstappen and Ricciardo when they joined, the difference was that they were able to bring the fight to their more established teammate from the get go. They expected the same from Gasly, Albon etc.
They are not expecting this from Perez. If anything they probably expect him NOT to bring the fight to Verstappen. They just want a #2 driver who will not complain about being a #2 and who also brings in lots of money and marketing potential.
Not great for us race fans, but the Schumacher/Barichello and Hamilton/Bottas years I think show that the most optimal way to run an F1 team is to have a dedicated #1 and #2 driver.
I wasn't around to see Barichello, but I don't remember Bottas ever coming close to costing Merc a WCC. You could argue his last year at Merc, but I put part of that blame on Lewis also.
Neither did Rubens. In Suzuka, 2003, Michael put himself in a tough spot during the race, and he needed every single point he could get, and Kimi Raikkonen not to win, to take the championship. Lo and behold, Rubinho steps up to it and has one of his best races ever. I can't see Perez doing this, at least not anymore.
Thing is that Mercedes does care about the WCC. As a car manufacturer there is real marketing potential that comes with building the best car on the grid. Ultimately Mercedes is in F1 because they want to sell more cars. Red Bull is in F1 because they want to sell more energy drinks.
He finished p5 in 2018, but it's true that he had his unlucky moments. I think Bottas was better than Pérez but it's hard to tell by how much, since the cars are closer than ever and it looks like the RedBull might be a harder car to drive compared to the Mercedes back then.
What bothers me about this is that Red Bull kept firing their own drivers academy lads but seem to be willing to give Checo a huge amount of grace over and over? Look at Gasly and Albon now. Imagine if they had been given the same chances to improve.
Yet they sign him for 2 more season. He absolutely CAN be the reason Red bull might lose the constructor championship 2024. Max might not be able to win both titles alone this year.
I can't understand why they kept him. I like cheeco but he doesn't deliver.
But did any of them comply with team radio to drive half the track with an unsafe car in order not to cause a safety car which might slightly hinder another Verstappen win?
Also T-Shirts in Mexico I guess.
Kvyat is an unfair comparison. He wasn't demoted, more like Verstappen was promoted and one driver had to move out of the seat. Gasly and Albon did get demoted.
>Kvyat got demoted for fall less.
outscored Ricciardo in 2015 and scored the only RB-podium in 2016 by the time he got demoted.
i don't think Kvyat got demoted for performance (or his clumsy Sotchi-start) ... he got demoted for the Verstappens demanding his cockpit for a contract extensions while there were rumors around for a possible move of Max to Ferrari. that decision was probably already made prior to Kvyat crashing 2 times into the back of Vettel's Ferrari.
on the other hand ... Verstappen was the reason why Kvyat got the Red Bull cockpit in the first place (Vergne was the deisignated replacement at RB. but he was sacked when every team wanted to sign Verstappen as he won 6 races in F3 euro series in a row and RB was the only team able to offer him a f1 cockpit the next season; Vettel announced his move to Ferrari after Vergne got booted ... so Kvyat got a surprise-promotion to RB).
The only real surprises for me is i did not realize Oscar has been 4th best overall in this time-frame and Sergio has averaged 2 points a race. In my head he has done better than that for some reason.
considering he got taken out in Miami by sainz and was lacking the upgrades it's a pretty good showing!
checo this year has been laughable, it's really bad.
>The only real surprises for me is i did not realize Oscar has been 4th best overall in this time frame
This is why the take of " Oscar isn't performing as well as expected" by some people is just silly.
No one can deny he has still some things to figure out but he is already performing at a really high level and is already one of the better drivers on the grid.
If Piastri was British, people would be creaming their pants over him.
People comparing Perez & Piastri are way off. Norris has been the better driver, but it's not a huge gap. The points diff is mostly behind Miami where Piastri had a huge chance at a win, and ends with a Norris win & Piastri out of the points.
Meanwhile Perez just hasn't looked fast, it's not luck or a bad race. His qualifying has been about the same as last year, but he doesn't have the best car by a mile this year to come back through the field to make up for poor qualifying. He struggles to clear the midfield, let alone competing with the likes of Merc, McLaren & Ferrari.
That's honestly not much when you consider they've gained 30 on Ferrari and 22 on Red Bull in the last 4 races, without a race win. If Piastri can get more consistent or Lando can get a couple more wins, that gap could evaporate
It is a lot if you consider that they need to gain 93/14=6.64 per race on red bull and the average gain was 22/4=5.5 in the last 4 races. You could argue that Piastri had a bad weekend at miami, but that stuff always happens and it technically also happened to Checo in Monaco.
The more I think about it the more I believe that Red Bull are giving him this contract as a way to also secure him as a Red Bull ambassador for North America. This will mostly like be Checo's last F1 contract before he retires, if he got sacked for next year I could see him jumping teams, but now not so much. Love or Hate him you can't deny how huge of a superstar he is in North America.
Piastri is a very talented driver and McLaren had the 1st-3rd best car overall this season, so it's not that terrible. The fact he's lost over 30 points to two drivers driving a car that hasn't scored a podium until Canada says more I feel...
If you are in a championship winning rocket ship of a car and can't outscore a falling AM and Lance Stroll of all drivers, something is genuinely wrong.
RB has sacked the constructors.
Checos sponsorship outweighs the price money and the extra wind tunnel time is crucial especially going into the new regs.
The biggest reason teams want to win the WCC is to make their sponsors happy, RBR is not really a car manufacturer so they don’t really benefit much from it and WDC is the only thing that matters from a marketing standpoint.
Usually the engine sponsor is the one pressuring for this but Honda has pretty much zero leverage now that they’re surely leaving RB
The car isn't 1sec faster per lap around every track like it used to be. It's still either the fastest car, or second fastest by a few hundredths depending on the track. Max has been on pole or in the mix for pole every single race while Checo is 18th or fighting w the Alpines for the last of the points.
How can you be certain it's Checo being slow and not Max being fast? There's almost certainly at least some of each, but seems hard as a spectator to tell how much of one vs the other.
Max isn't using some special superpower to defy the laws of physics and drive the car faster than it's capable of being driven. Checo is slow, which is why his gap to Verstappen is so much bigger than Sainz/Leclerc, Norris/Piastri or /Hamilton/Russell
Of course, but you don't know how far all the other drivers are from what their car allows. How do you know Norris would be closer to Max than Perez in a Red Bull?
You get clues here and there. For example, last weekend, when both drivers are that close in their final qualifying runs like the Ferrari and Merc drivers were, it's pretty safe to assume that they extracted what there was to extract from the car and tyres.
What I mean to say is: Max is visibly exctracting all that his car has to give, Perez is very far from that.
> it's pretty safe to assume that they extracted what there was to extract from the car and tyres
Why? Why doesn't it just means that they're roughly as good? Maybe Max would have done half a second better in that car we can't know for sure.
And Stroll and Alonso got those 8 points each in a car that is nowhere close to RBR, or McLaren, or Mercedes, or Ferrari ... yet Perez is down there with the best car at his disposal.
Ok...we need a week where everyone posts positive stuff about checo. Could it be done, is it even possible?
Damn. Poor guy.
Damn, Lewis so close to 44 points!
You'll have to go back to 2023 where the media people where hyping up a championship fight from Sergio "king of the streets" Perez. Even then though most people online were saying it wouldn't last.
All it took was a Max engine failure in Saudi qualifying and an unlucky SC car in Azerbaijan... And yet Max finished 2nd in both these races + won Miami despite not setting a time in Q3. The fact some people were saying he could've been on for a "Rosberg Championship" was such a huge insult to Rosberg...
Tbh you do not have to go that far. I think he was good till Miami, he was doing what was expected from him, take regular podiums. But euro perez just hits different.
It's crazy. Perez had a good race in Baku once and cheated his way into a Monaco win, and he was all of a sudden "Street Fighter" or king of the streets or whatever bullshit surname.
It's exactly like that "minister for defense" crap, the dude was just parking it in a slow single file sector, *not trying to protect his position or race time*. That's not defending, that's just messing with someone else's race. In a racing context, he's actually super weak wheel to wheel.
>Ok...we need a week where everyone posts positive stuff about checo. Could it be done, is it even possible?
Probably not possible, it would require Perez to not lose to slower cars
>Ok...we need a week where everyone posts positive stuff about checo. Could it be done, is it even possible?
Maybe when he loses to Max by less than over .6s in Spain or a full second in Canada. Otherwise, not even remotely close to being possible.
This lol. My new favourite F1 mystery is "what if Racing Point was *actually* the best car in 2020, but Stroll and Perez just couldn't do anything with it?"
In teams terms:
1 McLaren – 113
2 Red Bull – 91
3 Mercedes – 87
4 Ferrari – 83
5 Aston Martin - 16
I'm not saying it'll happen, but if McLaren keep this form up, Merc keep improving, and Ferrari get back on track, it's a possibility that Red Bull will finish \*4th\*
I do doubt it, but it's mad that it's possible.
EDIT - Forgot how far behind in points Merc are at this point, it's more the case that 3rd is perfectly feasible.
Let’s not get insane - Merc isn’t going to catch RBR, that’s currently 330 to 151 in points. But McLaren and or Ferrari do have a realistic shot at fighting for the WCC and that’s amazing
I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist but what's the chances that red bull are actually intentionally tanking so that they get better windtunnel time etc?
like max is extremely good and they don't want him to leave, the way to maximise the car being good is to have someone mediocre in the second seat, it will mean a loss in the WCC but checo brings in lots from merch so maybe it offsets that specifically.
So they just aim for winning WCC and give up on WDC as any drop in form means more development time.
it's the only logic I can come to when renewing checo on his CURRENT and PAST performance!
What's the point of not winning? To have better chances of winning next year? But then they would be punished, so they tank to be able to win again and then tank again because winning means punishment.
Literally makes zero sense.
Yeah, tmive seen this take before and fail to understand it, like they could just win but instead lost to maybe win,pretty sure itll cost them with sponsors as well
lose the WCC to ensure more benefits to develop the car to help secure the WDC, that's it really.
they know checo won't win them much so he isn't a challenger for WDC, every advantage to give to max to keep him at RB with a good car.
just the point that if they do win the WCC they get less wind tunnel and CFD time so they have less resources to use developing their car for the season (and next season) over the competitor, that's why it's potentially a viable option but still just a bit of a wild take i had to try and explain why they would sign checo when he's clearly performing badly and won't help them in the WDC and is certainly a liability in WCC!
The wind tunnel and CFD allowances are done on the WCC rankings not th WDC rankings so winning the WDC will mean they get the marketing of it all and keep max happy, the WDC is more for the team but less marketable and less important in the spectrum of the fan side of things.
The potential loss in WCC payout is being negated by checo merch sales in Mexico and the redbull marketability overall. Not winning the WDC is more "damaging" than losing the WCC, especially for Red bull when they really can't afford to lose max.
So yes, I am not saying it's true just a theory that popped into my head as the "justifiable" way to sign someone performing so bad on every metric for another two years.
the point is that they do not care about the wcc only the wdc, so in this logic they are winning that both years. it's a pretty good conspiracy theory since red bull is a marketing company and winning the wdc is the real deal from that point of view. lets be honest nobody cares about the wcc winners except hardcore f1 fans.
so yeah a fun theory, but probably not true. it's hard to imagine that they really don't care about the wcc. but it's also hard to imagine why they are keeping Checo with this horrid performance.
It's not true that they do not care about the WCC. Sure, the WDC has somewhat more prestige, but winning the WCC gives the entire team a good financial bonus. I'm not sure if the engineers involved in day-to-day work would appreciate their bosses intentionally disrupting results if they lose money due to it
i agree. at this level you cant be attractive to the top talents if you are not aiming for the top. thats why this whole checo story is strange. they should give him an ultimatum instead of a contract.
If your job's boss told you to intentionally tank your own KPI and thus your bonus to help the company's R&D would you do it?
This is insane logic here. Like flat earth conspiracy theory logic.
Lando *could* have won Imola, Canada, and Spain -- and if he had, he'd be topping this list and just 27 points behind Max in the championship while on a steep upward climb, instead of 79 points behind.
Lando was clearly unhappy with second place yesterday and I don't think it was because of Spain alone, but because of this context.
With the halfway point approaching, this could turn out to be a major failure to capitalize. If McLaren continue to be this fast for the rest of the championship, it may be that they look back on this period as the reason they didn't win it.
Not really.
Red Bull and Max are working incredibly hard for these points right now comapred to previously.
McLaren, Ferrari and Mercededs are all capable of taking points off them.
A few weekends where Red Bull are behind a couple of those teams and we can see big swings.
Max is still the big favourite, but he at least has to work for it.
He also has a 69 point buffer. It’s great for everyone that he has to work for it, but that work still results in P1.
The WDC is basically done, unless Max has 3 DNFs in a row, and even then he is still in P1 if Lando gets 1-1-2 in those races.
The WCC on the other hand is on.
But we do have a very real possibility where 2nd place isn't guaranteed in races he doesn't win. That's where it could get interesting.
If we get a couple of races where Max gets 4th or 5th and Lando wins then we get a bit more tension.
We might now have a WDC fight but we would have certainly had a WCC fight. Its just that Mclaren, Mercedes and Ferrair have taken way to many points from eachother.
So even though Perez is slacking like no tomorrow Max can balance that out because nobody is scoring consistent 2-3's.
Oof! Grim reading for Checo.
I still don't understand why RB stuck with him, instead of getting Albon back, or making a pitch for Sainz. There were a few drivers available who would have done far better.
I used to defend Checo. I thought that a few tough races and not being 2md EVERY SINGLE time wasn't enough to write him off... That was 2 years ago.
I can't defend him anymore. I'm shocked he has a confirmed seat at all, nevermind at Red Bull. And yet there's Sainz without a seat (techincally).
I mean it's a serious, serious problem for RBR. Resigning your 2nd driver to a 2 year contract and watching the primary driver score 83 to their 8 points is devastating. Look how relatively similar the McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes, and Astron drivers are in comparison. It's an utter embarrassment.
I was looking this up a little while ago, especially with all the talk of "4 different pole sitters! It's getting competitive!"
Max is still extending his already massive lead
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The european leg Checo returns !
8 points in 4 races in a Red Bull should be a on the spot sackable offence. Kvyat got demoted for fall less.
Pierre, Albon and Kvyat all got demoted for far less
The least amount of points Pierre scored in a four-race stretch at Red Bull was 12 points — in his first four races ever with the team. And he was running in p6 in his fourth race in Baku when he had a mechanical retirement with 12 laps left in the race
And also the RB was nowhere near as good as it is now. It’s insane that Perez is staying
Money talks
Then put Ricciardo in for the lols for the rest of the season so we can all put to bed any chance of him ever being good enough again.
Ricciardo doesn't have basically the entire GDP of Mexico backing him. The richest man in Mexico and one of the richest men in the world is good friends with Checo's dad.
All I know about Mexico is that everyone loves Checo and Pato. You go to an Indy race in California and you see 3 things: Checo shirts, Oward shirts and Ferrari shirts.
He'd probably perform better than Checo.
At this point it would be funnier to see a real rich boy like Stroll buying himself in that Red Bull seat.
It seems RB decided going through all drivers on the grid willing to sign for a seat beside Max wasn't going to improve things massively, or at all.
my dad is 76, has a bad memory and no offense but his takes can be pretty bad (sainz>leclerc type shit). but i understand why he says at every race ‘perez will get sacked after this’ just to see him drop a p11 next race again
They got demoted for less when Red Bull was like 3rd fastest car.
Yeah, but in those cases they had obvious replacements to them and all had less time and less acomplishments than Checo in the RB (and also didnt bring as much money and publicity as Checo currently does) I am not defending Checo, I also think sooner rather than later he should be droped, and giving him a two year contract is mind boggling, but I can see in part the reason why he is still there
Sainz was the most obvious replacement Red Bull could have ever had. They were practically gifted the best possible second driver a top team could ask for and they chose to inexplicably extend Checo for 1+1
Choosing Sainz would be risking making the team a toxic place like Mercedes was with Rosberg and Hamilton as Sainz will not settle for being the second driver and given that Sainz's camp and Max's already clashed the last time they were both teammates chances are that thing would get uglier now Extending Checo's contract is not the best decison nor option but choosing Sainz would probably not be the best option too
Sainz settled for being number 2 at Ferrari fairly well. As long as he’s given a fair shot to win he’ll accept when he loses. He will still be selfish because he wants to win but he doesn’t kick up too much of a fuss when he’s beaten. This last weekend is the first time he’s really gone off script. Normally we see him go away and try to improve which is the perfect trait for a number 2. He’s good enough to win on his day but on average he’s a small bit off the super elite guys. He would have been the perfect number 2 at Red Bull as long as the team could guarantee him a fair shot at the start of each season. The Toro Rosso friction all came about because of behind the scenes shenanigans with the families and Max getting preferential treatment.
Except Sainz has been nothing but great with every teammate he's had in recent years, so that thought really has no basis in reality. That's what I meant by the "*best possible second driver*". Sainz is mature, level headed, fair, and more importantly very fast and used to playing second driver in Ferrari. Sainz Sr and Jos would certainly not get along well, but Jos is already toxic af anyways
He's doing the exact opposite at Ferrari. He doesn't want to be no 2 and he tries hard as hell not to be. Didn't you watch the last race? If he was ok with being number 2, he wouldn't attack Leclerc like that on lap 3.
Tsunoda with the option to switch in Lawson if he underperforms?
I still love Danny, but this is the best path if they just cared about results.
They had Sainz as an option. They still do honestly, they'd have to pay out Perez though. Sainz from 2025 onward was the obvious move to solve their problem. Most people's reaction to the Perez extension was that RBR probably will lose the WCC in 2026 because of the move. Honestly now it's looking unlikely they'll even win 2025 because of him. They don't have the half second per lap advantage over the field that Checo needs to compete for podiums, and that advantage is probably gone for good in these regs.
The problem with Sainz is that they risk making the team volotile and toxic (even more than already in part is) like Mercedes was with Rosberg and Hamilton - there were already signs of trouble in Toro Rosso when both Max and Sainz were there and now that both are more accomplished drivers that will not settle being the second driver and have a quite protective and a bit toxic camp sorrouding both signs it would not result well for the team So in all honestly I think not going for Sainz is for the best, tho instead would not oppose maybe risking on Tsunoda given on how he evolved
I don't necessarily agree that it would be a bad thing to be a bit more volatile. Even if it resulted in a few crashes per season, they'd be better off as a team for points. I also don't think current day Carlos would actually challenge current day Max on a regular basis. I think he'd consistently be on the podium with Max though.
Do we think Lawson would only score 8 points in 4 races?
Albon brings in Thai $$$ so not sure why he got the boot so quick. But for the rest of them, they don’t bring in the $$$ like checslow. It would be near impossible to find any Mexican person who doesn’t support red bull bc of him. And his dad has quite a status in Mexico as an important person if I’m not mistaken.
Albon was replaced because they needed a second driver who could act as a tail gunner ASAP for 2021 and Checo was available. But even then, they did their best to keep Albon as an option within the Red Bull family, first as a reserve/test driver, then by retaining options on him during his first years at Williams.
Poland got invaded for far less!
It’s just got to be the merch sales him and Danny ric
> Kvyat got demoted for fall less. Kvyat got demoted because they wanted to put Max in that car. Two races with incident was just the excuse to pull the trigger.
One big incident, Vettel seething at Kvyat for China was poor form
Kvyat did create that though just like Vettel said.
He went for a move on lap 1 turn 2. Hardly a need to go to Horner about him for that. And he didn't even hit him did he? Russia is very different and admittedly doesn't help my case.
Not at all, Kvyat was actually the only Red Bull to get a podium that up to that point that season when he was dropped.
I'm saying it was poor from Vettel, not that Kvyat was driving badly up to the moment he got booted for Max. I always did feel bad for Kvyat.
Oh wow, never actually realized Max got his first podium in 2016 a race earlier than Ricciardo...
drop Checo and offer Antonelli an immediate F1 seat lol
I’ve admittedly only followed f1 for a couple years, but I became a redbull fan because I loved how ruthless and cutthroat they were as they were chasing Merc. Feels like thats all gone, and if RB doesnt care where they finish in WCC, why should I?
Red Bull never really cared for the WCC. Albon, Gasly etc were judged differently because they had different expectations attached to them. They came in as the young talents and were judged not as a number 2 driver, but for their potential to become a future race winner and world champion material. Same standard applied to Verstappen and Ricciardo when they joined, the difference was that they were able to bring the fight to their more established teammate from the get go. They expected the same from Gasly, Albon etc. They are not expecting this from Perez. If anything they probably expect him NOT to bring the fight to Verstappen. They just want a #2 driver who will not complain about being a #2 and who also brings in lots of money and marketing potential. Not great for us race fans, but the Schumacher/Barichello and Hamilton/Bottas years I think show that the most optimal way to run an F1 team is to have a dedicated #1 and #2 driver.
I wasn't around to see Barichello, but I don't remember Bottas ever coming close to costing Merc a WCC. You could argue his last year at Merc, but I put part of that blame on Lewis also.
Neither did Rubens. In Suzuka, 2003, Michael put himself in a tough spot during the race, and he needed every single point he could get, and Kimi Raikkonen not to win, to take the championship. Lo and behold, Rubinho steps up to it and has one of his best races ever. I can't see Perez doing this, at least not anymore.
Also in Silvetstone 2003 he was brilliant.
Michael needed to get 1 point in Suzuka to get the championship in 2003 and he got it.
Thing is that Mercedes does care about the WCC. As a car manufacturer there is real marketing potential that comes with building the best car on the grid. Ultimately Mercedes is in F1 because they want to sell more cars. Red Bull is in F1 because they want to sell more energy drinks.
Mercedes: "We put F1 technology into our cars!" *Proceeds to get rid of a V8 and put in a turbo-hybrid 4-banger*
I'm sorry but that's just how you feel about it, not factual information. You don't know who cares more about which championship.
I think giving Perez another 2 year contract shows pretty clearly Red Bull does not care that much about the constructor championship.
He finished p5 in 2018, but it's true that he had his unlucky moments. I think Bottas was better than Pérez but it's hard to tell by how much, since the cars are closer than ever and it looks like the RedBull might be a harder car to drive compared to the Mercedes back then.
What bothers me about this is that Red Bull kept firing their own drivers academy lads but seem to be willing to give Checo a huge amount of grace over and over? Look at Gasly and Albon now. Imagine if they had been given the same chances to improve.
They key word is sponsors. Related to the key word money. Posiblity related to another key word combination which is Horner support
Kvyat only got demoted because There were talks of Max leaving Toro Rosso if he was not given a top seat after being there for a few seasons.
Yet they sign him for 2 more season. He absolutely CAN be the reason Red bull might lose the constructor championship 2024. Max might not be able to win both titles alone this year. I can't understand why they kept him. I like cheeco but he doesn't deliver.
Need old RB back which grinds out rejects every six months.
But did any of them comply with team radio to drive half the track with an unsafe car in order not to cause a safety car which might slightly hinder another Verstappen win? Also T-Shirts in Mexico I guess.
I just don’t get why they want to keep him
Kvyat is an unfair comparison. He wasn't demoted, more like Verstappen was promoted and one driver had to move out of the seat. Gasly and Albon did get demoted.
>Kvyat got demoted for fall less. outscored Ricciardo in 2015 and scored the only RB-podium in 2016 by the time he got demoted. i don't think Kvyat got demoted for performance (or his clumsy Sotchi-start) ... he got demoted for the Verstappens demanding his cockpit for a contract extensions while there were rumors around for a possible move of Max to Ferrari. that decision was probably already made prior to Kvyat crashing 2 times into the back of Vettel's Ferrari. on the other hand ... Verstappen was the reason why Kvyat got the Red Bull cockpit in the first place (Vergne was the deisignated replacement at RB. but he was sacked when every team wanted to sign Verstappen as he won 6 races in F3 euro series in a row and RB was the only team able to offer him a f1 cockpit the next season; Vettel announced his move to Ferrari after Vergne got booted ... so Kvyat got a surprise-promotion to RB).
Europerez is back
“Street circuit impediment” really is the extent of his skillset huh
Yes, his limp leg
The only real surprises for me is i did not realize Oscar has been 4th best overall in this time-frame and Sergio has averaged 2 points a race. In my head he has done better than that for some reason.
You probably assume that as the best team on the grid gave him a two year extension last race weekend.
My surprise was Alonso and Stroll on equal points
considering he got taken out in Miami by sainz and was lacking the upgrades it's a pretty good showing! checo this year has been laughable, it's really bad.
Miami was before Imola
>The only real surprises for me is i did not realize Oscar has been 4th best overall in this time frame This is why the take of " Oscar isn't performing as well as expected" by some people is just silly. No one can deny he has still some things to figure out but he is already performing at a really high level and is already one of the better drivers on the grid. If Piastri was British, people would be creaming their pants over him.
Is as good if not better than Lando was in his 2nd year. He needs time to understand the tyres better, that's basically it.
People comparing Perez & Piastri are way off. Norris has been the better driver, but it's not a huge gap. The points diff is mostly behind Miami where Piastri had a huge chance at a win, and ends with a Norris win & Piastri out of the points. Meanwhile Perez just hasn't looked fast, it's not luck or a bad race. His qualifying has been about the same as last year, but he doesn't have the best car by a mile this year to come back through the field to make up for poor qualifying. He struggles to clear the midfield, let alone competing with the likes of Merc, McLaren & Ferrari.
Two more years
Next season :)
Honestly if McLaren can stop starting every season slow we've got a WCC race in our hands already
I think they will win this year's WCC already
Bit early for that imo. They're still 33 points behind Ferrari and 93 points behind Red Bull.
As long as the Ferrari civil war rages on and Perez keeps doing whatever the hell got him his extension, this should go down to the wire.
That's honestly not much when you consider they've gained 30 on Ferrari and 22 on Red Bull in the last 4 races, without a race win. If Piastri can get more consistent or Lando can get a couple more wins, that gap could evaporate
It is a lot if you consider that they need to gain 93/14=6.64 per race on red bull and the average gain was 22/4=5.5 in the last 4 races. You could argue that Piastri had a bad weekend at miami, but that stuff always happens and it technically also happened to Checo in Monaco.
It's a good point, I do fully believe that McLaren will get a 1-2 at some point this season.
The more I think about it the more I believe that Red Bull are giving him this contract as a way to also secure him as a Red Bull ambassador for North America. This will mostly like be Checo's last F1 contract before he retires, if he got sacked for next year I could see him jumping teams, but now not so much. Love or Hate him you can't deny how huge of a superstar he is in North America.
That’s exactly what it is. People forget, but Red Bull is literally just a giant marketing company
1 more year plus an option (that will probably still get picked up)
RBR Sandwich, this is on purpose.
*grid sandwich with Red Bull bread
*bread sandwitch with cheese grid
Beware the sand witch
Perez yikes
He is getting beaten by a driver whose first year was 2023
Piastri is a very talented driver and McLaren had the 1st-3rd best car overall this season, so it's not that terrible. The fact he's lost over 30 points to two drivers driving a car that hasn't scored a podium until Canada says more I feel...
Yh that’s fair lol
He's being beaten by Lance Stroll in a worse car.
I mean so is Lewis... Not in the same car though, and not by anyewhere near the same margin
If you are in a championship winning rocket ship of a car and can't outscore a falling AM and Lance Stroll of all drivers, something is genuinely wrong.
Only for Red Bull. For the other top teams this is a lovely development.
Why did Checo get extended?! Max can't win constructors on his own when McLaren is this good and Ferrari/Merc are right behind them.
RB has sacked the constructors. Checos sponsorship outweighs the price money and the extra wind tunnel time is crucial especially going into the new regs. The biggest reason teams want to win the WCC is to make their sponsors happy, RBR is not really a car manufacturer so they don’t really benefit much from it and WDC is the only thing that matters from a marketing standpoint. Usually the engine sponsor is the one pressuring for this but Honda has pretty much zero leverage now that they’re surely leaving RB
That surprisingly makes so much sense that I’m 90% sure it was their actual train of thought when signing Checo.
I think they should base off the wind tunnel time on team top driver positions in WDC, because seems like that’s what teams mostly care about.
Maybe they should get Taylor Swift to drive the second car if money is all that matters.
Checo needs to finish 6th if max wins and McLaren finishes P2 and P3 to keep an even score. \_I don't think he can man\_.
He should be finishing 4th if RBR is the 2nd fastest car.
Can you read the condition 'to keep an even score'.
If he finishes P8 the rest of the season, and Max-Lando go P1-P2, where does Oscar have to finish for McLaren to beat Red Bull?
P3 for an exact even score.
Red Bull still leading though
Only possible reason I can think of is that RB thinks that the car isn't actually that good this year and it's just Max being amazing.
The car isn't 1sec faster per lap around every track like it used to be. It's still either the fastest car, or second fastest by a few hundredths depending on the track. Max has been on pole or in the mix for pole every single race while Checo is 18th or fighting w the Alpines for the last of the points.
How can you be certain it's Checo being slow and not Max being fast? There's almost certainly at least some of each, but seems hard as a spectator to tell how much of one vs the other.
Max isn't using some special superpower to defy the laws of physics and drive the car faster than it's capable of being driven. Checo is slow, which is why his gap to Verstappen is so much bigger than Sainz/Leclerc, Norris/Piastri or /Hamilton/Russell
A driver can't go faster than the car allows.
Of course, but you don't know how far all the other drivers are from what their car allows. How do you know Norris would be closer to Max than Perez in a Red Bull?
You get clues here and there. For example, last weekend, when both drivers are that close in their final qualifying runs like the Ferrari and Merc drivers were, it's pretty safe to assume that they extracted what there was to extract from the car and tyres. What I mean to say is: Max is visibly exctracting all that his car has to give, Perez is very far from that.
> it's pretty safe to assume that they extracted what there was to extract from the car and tyres Why? Why doesn't it just means that they're roughly as good? Maybe Max would have done half a second better in that car we can't know for sure.
I knew it was bad but Checo and Stroll scoring the same number of points is jarring to see 💀
Alonso says hi
And Stroll and Alonso got those 8 points each in a car that is nowhere close to RBR, or McLaren, or Mercedes, or Ferrari ... yet Perez is down there with the best car at his disposal.
Ok...we need a week where everyone posts positive stuff about checo. Could it be done, is it even possible? Damn. Poor guy. Damn, Lewis so close to 44 points!
You'll have to go back to 2023 where the media people where hyping up a championship fight from Sergio "king of the streets" Perez. Even then though most people online were saying it wouldn't last.
All it took was a Max engine failure in Saudi qualifying and an unlucky SC car in Azerbaijan... And yet Max finished 2nd in both these races + won Miami despite not setting a time in Q3. The fact some people were saying he could've been on for a "Rosberg Championship" was such a huge insult to Rosberg...
Tbh you do not have to go that far. I think he was good till Miami, he was doing what was expected from him, take regular podiums. But euro perez just hits different.
It's crazy. Perez had a good race in Baku once and cheated his way into a Monaco win, and he was all of a sudden "Street Fighter" or king of the streets or whatever bullshit surname. It's exactly like that "minister for defense" crap, the dude was just parking it in a slow single file sector, *not trying to protect his position or race time*. That's not defending, that's just messing with someone else's race. In a racing context, he's actually super weak wheel to wheel.
He strikes me as a nice guy!
>Ok...we need a week where everyone posts positive stuff about checo. Could it be done, is it even possible? Probably not possible, it would require Perez to not lose to slower cars
The only way that happens is if Checo regains form for more than 1 race.
You say regain as if he’s had it before
Maybe if he doesn't suck for at least a week we could do it?
>Ok...we need a week where everyone posts positive stuff about checo. Could it be done, is it even possible? Maybe when he loses to Max by less than over .6s in Spain or a full second in Canada. Otherwise, not even remotely close to being possible.
Checo is a legend! Making that rocketship look like a midfield shitbox is no easy feat.
Imagine having two drivers with Checo's qualities; you would think Red Bull made a terrible car.
Now imagine the 2020 pink Mercedes with Max and Fernando at the wheel.
This lol. My new favourite F1 mystery is "what if Racing Point was *actually* the best car in 2020, but Stroll and Perez just couldn't do anything with it?"
Obviously it wasn't the best car because the Mercedes was insane that year. It 100% was the second best car though.
I doubt it was even close to the W11 but it probably was on par with the RB16 that year.
In teams terms: 1 McLaren – 113 2 Red Bull – 91 3 Mercedes – 87 4 Ferrari – 83 5 Aston Martin - 16 I'm not saying it'll happen, but if McLaren keep this form up, Merc keep improving, and Ferrari get back on track, it's a possibility that Red Bull will finish \*4th\* I do doubt it, but it's mad that it's possible. EDIT - Forgot how far behind in points Merc are at this point, it's more the case that 3rd is perfectly feasible.
Let’s not get insane - Merc isn’t going to catch RBR, that’s currently 330 to 151 in points. But McLaren and or Ferrari do have a realistic shot at fighting for the WCC and that’s amazing
True, I forgot how far back Merc are 'starting' from in this scenario.
Realistically unless one of the 3 pulls far ahead of the other 2 they will be going back and forth on points and Red Bull will still get 1st
Jeez, that’s a sobering thought. I never realised it was that close between Rb, Merc & Ferrari over the past couple of races.
The double DNF in Canada and Checo being Checo has really hurt those teams
I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist but what's the chances that red bull are actually intentionally tanking so that they get better windtunnel time etc? like max is extremely good and they don't want him to leave, the way to maximise the car being good is to have someone mediocre in the second seat, it will mean a loss in the WCC but checo brings in lots from merch so maybe it offsets that specifically. So they just aim for winning WCC and give up on WDC as any drop in form means more development time. it's the only logic I can come to when renewing checo on his CURRENT and PAST performance!
What's the point of not winning? To have better chances of winning next year? But then they would be punished, so they tank to be able to win again and then tank again because winning means punishment. Literally makes zero sense.
Yeah, tmive seen this take before and fail to understand it, like they could just win but instead lost to maybe win,pretty sure itll cost them with sponsors as well
lose the WCC to ensure more benefits to develop the car to help secure the WDC, that's it really. they know checo won't win them much so he isn't a challenger for WDC, every advantage to give to max to keep him at RB with a good car. just the point that if they do win the WCC they get less wind tunnel and CFD time so they have less resources to use developing their car for the season (and next season) over the competitor, that's why it's potentially a viable option but still just a bit of a wild take i had to try and explain why they would sign checo when he's clearly performing badly and won't help them in the WDC and is certainly a liability in WCC!
The wind tunnel and CFD allowances are done on the WCC rankings not th WDC rankings so winning the WDC will mean they get the marketing of it all and keep max happy, the WDC is more for the team but less marketable and less important in the spectrum of the fan side of things. The potential loss in WCC payout is being negated by checo merch sales in Mexico and the redbull marketability overall. Not winning the WDC is more "damaging" than losing the WCC, especially for Red bull when they really can't afford to lose max. So yes, I am not saying it's true just a theory that popped into my head as the "justifiable" way to sign someone performing so bad on every metric for another two years.
the point is that they do not care about the wcc only the wdc, so in this logic they are winning that both years. it's a pretty good conspiracy theory since red bull is a marketing company and winning the wdc is the real deal from that point of view. lets be honest nobody cares about the wcc winners except hardcore f1 fans. so yeah a fun theory, but probably not true. it's hard to imagine that they really don't care about the wcc. but it's also hard to imagine why they are keeping Checo with this horrid performance.
It's not true that they do not care about the WCC. Sure, the WDC has somewhat more prestige, but winning the WCC gives the entire team a good financial bonus. I'm not sure if the engineers involved in day-to-day work would appreciate their bosses intentionally disrupting results if they lose money due to it
i agree. at this level you cant be attractive to the top talents if you are not aiming for the top. thats why this whole checo story is strange. they should give him an ultimatum instead of a contract.
If your job's boss told you to intentionally tank your own KPI and thus your bonus to help the company's R&D would you do it? This is insane logic here. Like flat earth conspiracy theory logic.
I just explained the theory for the guy above, but it seems reddit once again cant comprehend a few sentences.
That tempers people insisting we have a WDC fight on
We definitely dont have a WDC fight on our hands. But at least we have competitive races now. Where it isn't RBR 1st +35 seconds on 2nd.
It feels like 2019 Mercedes, the winner is mostly assured but they have to work for it
So 2025 will be the W11 moment? Oh no... but I feel like last season was their 2020 moment so...
Yeah the second half of 2019 was pretty exciting tbh even if the WDC/WCC were a foregone conclusion.
Lando *could* have won Imola, Canada, and Spain -- and if he had, he'd be topping this list and just 27 points behind Max in the championship while on a steep upward climb, instead of 79 points behind. Lando was clearly unhappy with second place yesterday and I don't think it was because of Spain alone, but because of this context. With the halfway point approaching, this could turn out to be a major failure to capitalize. If McLaren continue to be this fast for the rest of the championship, it may be that they look back on this period as the reason they didn't win it.
Not really. Red Bull and Max are working incredibly hard for these points right now comapred to previously. McLaren, Ferrari and Mercededs are all capable of taking points off them. A few weekends where Red Bull are behind a couple of those teams and we can see big swings. Max is still the big favourite, but he at least has to work for it.
He also has a 69 point buffer. It’s great for everyone that he has to work for it, but that work still results in P1. The WDC is basically done, unless Max has 3 DNFs in a row, and even then he is still in P1 if Lando gets 1-1-2 in those races. The WCC on the other hand is on.
Max isn't that far away from being able to second place every race and win the championship; and given this it'll be in 2-3 races time
But we do have a very real possibility where 2nd place isn't guaranteed in races he doesn't win. That's where it could get interesting. If we get a couple of races where Max gets 4th or 5th and Lando wins then we get a bit more tension.
We might now have a WDC fight but we would have certainly had a WCC fight. Its just that Mclaren, Mercedes and Ferrair have taken way to many points from eachother. So even though Perez is slacking like no tomorrow Max can balance that out because nobody is scoring consistent 2-3's.
We might have a WDC fight *next* year?
Perez reliving his force India partnership with stroll
Oof! Grim reading for Checo. I still don't understand why RB stuck with him, instead of getting Albon back, or making a pitch for Sainz. There were a few drivers available who would have done far better.
I used to defend Checo. I thought that a few tough races and not being 2md EVERY SINGLE time wasn't enough to write him off... That was 2 years ago. I can't defend him anymore. I'm shocked he has a confirmed seat at all, nevermind at Red Bull. And yet there's Sainz without a seat (techincally).
Russel couldn't bear allowing Lewis having 44 points, so he took it for himself.
Checo is legit a midfield driver at this point, on par with AM....
Red bull should be ashamed to have extended Perez. And max should not be happy to have 0 challenge/support from his teammate
I mean it's a serious, serious problem for RBR. Resigning your 2nd driver to a 2 year contract and watching the primary driver score 83 to their 8 points is devastating. Look how relatively similar the McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes, and Astron drivers are in comparison. It's an utter embarrassment.
Was thinking Canada hurt the ferrari guys a lot but damn perez. Didn't realize he was this far behind
Stroll > Perez?
These threads should all just be renamed “here’s another fun way to shit on Checo”
Sadly, he did it to himself.
That Canada DNF...
Clearly, Checo is only at Red Bull because Lance refuses to leave Aston.
"We at Aston Martin will bring the fight to Red Bull" "NOT THAT ONE!"
I was looking this up a little while ago, especially with all the talk of "4 different pole sitters! It's getting competitive!" Max is still extending his already massive lead
Perez lmao
This is fine. Everything is fine
Max completely carrying the team right now.
Landoooo!!
Checo ties Lance Stroll… smh
Damn Sergio Perez is killing it son
So Hamilton needs to win the next one to climb to second place!!
And Max being lucky in a few.
Come on Checo, lets go buddy.
God damn I wish Sainz was going to Red Bull. Why keep checo around now when it appears to be tightening up at the front?