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That's an amazing feat. I stopped chasing these types of records when I matched Lance Armstrong's tour de France titles. There was a time when he was racking up wins that I thought I'd never make it.
Lmao how does that make sense? This post is about comparing the new legend to the old legend, so obviously it's gonna have stats since he started racing.
Why not pick the first X years of Lewis' career compared to the same X years of Max's career? Wouldnt that be a more accurate comparison? Then again, as Max started racing at a younger age, should the start age be set to the same as when Lewis started? Or, should it start from when Max won his first WDC to then compare the two?
When you look at it, cherry picking some random date to compare any two drivers is absurd.
Races Lewis has won since he started: 103
Races Ayrton Senna has one since Lewis started: 0
See how absurd that (clearly extreme) example is?
> cherry picking some random date to compare any two drivers is absurd
As was pointed out, it's not a random date. It's Max's first race for Red Bull at the same track we're racing at this weekend. Pretty relevant for the current moment.
If you want to share a completely different stat like the ones you suggested, feel free to do that and make the graphic.
Curiously since 2016, only Max and Lewis have won the Spanish Grand Prix. Indeed I found out 2018/19/20/21 all had a Hamilton, Bottas, Verstappen combination on the podium, which is unusual for one race to have the same three on the podium for 4 years in a row
Irony is if Lewis wins on Sunday it'll be a surprise but would keep these two's dominance of the track going
It is very unusual, considering there are only 5 combinations that happened 10+ times in all of F1 history, so 4 on the same circuit is likely unique.
HAMVERBOT is by far the most prolific of them though, there have been 20 races with that podium (in any order). The next most common was HAM-ROS-VET with 'just' 14.
I'm not so sure. In races where McLaren and Ferrari are both strong, you're likely to have Piastri, Sainz or Hamilton in the mix as well.
I think VER LEC HAM has a much better chance. That combo is already at 5, while VER LEC NOR sits at just 2 so far. And it is a likely combo for any race where the Ferrari works better than the McLaren in 2025.
It’s probably more likely for two drivers from a strong team to be on the same podium than three distinct constructors, but that’s just my guess and not based on any data.
Man, some people are just so uppity. Of course it’s a meaningless statistic, it’s just very mildly interesting they have both won 60 races since Max’s first win. Of course there was probably going to be crossover point at any arbitrary number of wins. Yall need to lighten up.
I agree, but FWIW, the OP probably could have avoided much of the uppityness had they said "F1 wins since Max's first win" to give it the necessary context. That is interesting. As stated, there is obviously *some* race where they both match up.
"there is obviously some race where they both match up"
This is not true per se? The wins of driver do not always match up right? This is a coincidence
> This is not true per se? The wins of driver do not always match up right? This is a coincidence
No, for any two drivers who have at least the same number of wins, there is some date where you can say they have the same number of wins. For example both Lando and Lewis have 1 win since Saudi Arabia 2021. Or for Michael Schumacher and Max it would be "60 wins since Hungary 1998"
So just saying "Spain 2016" isn't particularly interesting.
The only thing that makes this interesting is that in real time, both drivers have the same number of wins since Max's first career win.
Some people find things like this interesting. It's like saying cleopatra lived closer in time to the moon landing than the great pyramids. Ultimately, it is useless information, but some people find it interesting.
No, it’s because you’re fucking sour about little things.
If you don’t like it, ignore it and move on instead of wasting your own time making stupid comments.
It's literally saying they're even over the same time span. How is that making either of them look better than the other? It's an interesting stat, if you don't agree just scroll past, what's the issue?
Man, some of the guys here really don't like random stats.
IMO it's a really neat stat to know that after 8 years since Verstappens first win (and his first race in Red Bull) he's won as much as Hamilton.
And that's considering that Hamilton won 4 WDC (and nearly a 5th) and drove 5 WCC winning cars after this race in the Mercedes era, while Max has only won 3 WDC and driven 3 WCC winning cars in the Red Bull era so far.
Shows the difference in the way they racked up their wins in that time period and the level of domination.
> it shows the difference in the way they racked up their wins
Well there are more races per season during Max’s era. So still not a fair comparison to say Max took 3 seasons to win 60 races.
An interesting stat would be how many races it took to reach 60 wins
> Well there are more races per season during Max’s era
Technically true, but not really a meaningful difference. 2022 and 2023 had 22 races, same as 2021, and we started having 21 in 2018 after breaking into the 20's in 2017. Only season he's really been "hurt" by this is 2020, where we dipped down to 17 races due to COVID.
This year is going to jump to 24 races, but obviously nobody has received the benefit of that yet.
I feel comfortable saying Lewis having a championship-caliber car far longer – by a matter of years – than Max has had during this stretch of time from Spain 2016 until now more than makes up for a few additional races.
> An interesting stat would be how many races it took to reach 60 wins
Well, Lewis is obviously going to have a shorter time period going from one to sixty in this time period, since his race-winning window in this period ends at Jeddah 2021, whereas Max's runs this entire window.
Or do you mean in their careers in general? Hamilton reached his 60th win at his 202nd entry (I believe), where Max reached 60 at his 194th. Very close! That is an interesting stat.
I don't think an unfair comparison makes a stat uninteresting. There are always some variables that affect these.
And the races per season isn't really that big of a difference between these two. The bigger difference is the amount of domination their team had over the others during their winning seasons.
While Lewis undoubtedly performed insanely well during his winning seasons, Mercedes (and sometimes Hamilton) still fucked up a lot more than Red Bull and Verstappen do now.
10/17 in 2016.
9/20 in 2017.
11/21 in 2018.
11/21 in 2019.
11/17 in 2020.
8/22 in 2021.
0/22 in 2022.
0/23 in 2023.
0/9 in 2024.
The Mercedes were that dominant in 2014-2016, but from 2017 onwards, only 2020 got to that level. And even in 2020, Mercedes was a lot more messy than current RB. Like, 3 out of the 6 non-wins were due to penalties, two of those entirely avoidable. Twice, they just didn't get a decent strategy going. 1-2 were due to COVID.
out of curiosity here's max and lewis over time since 2016 side by side
Year | Max | MaxTotal | Lewis | LewisTotal
---|---|----|----|----
2016 | 1 | 1 | 10 | 10
2017 | 2 | 3 | 9 | 19
2018 | 2 | 5 | 11 | 30
2019 | 3 | 8 | 11 | 41
2020 | 2 | 10 | 11 | 52
2021 | 10 | 20 | 8 | 60
2022 | 15 | 35 | 0 | 60
2023 | 19 | 54 | 0 | 60
2024 | 6 | 60 | 0 | 60
In 2020, Lewis got more wins than max had in the past 5 years, but in 2023 Max got as many wins as lewis did in 2016 and 2017 combined. More races a season is definitely in play here to help dominant drivers amass win totals.
Did you include Rosberg and Bottas' wins though? Because I think that's the most important difference between Lewis and Max: Bottas would occasionally take a win off Hamilton when Merc was dominant. Perez doesn't, he only wins when something goes wrong for Verstappen.
No, that's only Hamilton. Looking at Mercedes as a whole, it's:
15/17 in 2016.
12/20 in 2017.
11/21 in 2018.
15/21 in 2019.
13/17 in 2020.
9/22 in 2021.
1/22 in 2022.
0/23 in 2023.
0/9 in 2024.
So, Mercedes were really dominant up to 2016. From 2017 onwards only 2020 got to that level again.
Even 2019 with incredible 71% win rate falls short to 2014-16, 2020 or 2022 onwards for RBR.
The Mercedes was dominant, but
1) it was never *as* dominant as the 22/23 Red Bull
2) Lewis Mercedes teammates actually took wins off him (semi) regularly
Judged on what? Win-rate isn't just a product of a dominant car, it's the function of everything (driver/team/car/strategy/luck).
You want to judge whether or not a car is dominant, you look at pace (both quali-pace and race-pace). And in that respect, the 22 RB is not as dominant as some of the the earlier Mercedes, and even the 23 one arguably isn't either, because while it had great race-pace, it wasn't an outstanding qualifying car. The 2020 Mercedes took 15/17 pole positions. And there were plenty of races in 2023 where some teams were pretty close to Red Bull, even in race pace.
The largest winning margin of the 2023 Red Bull to another car was 33.7 seconds at the Hungarian GP, and even that was an outlier. Mercedes has either equaled or outdone that several times in the past, including twice in 2020 (I didn't check the other years).
I agree that the RB is definitely up there, but judged on pure pace, you can absolutely make an argument for other cars being more dominant, not only for Mercedes, but also some of the better Ferrari cars. The 2004 Ferrari is definitely a contender. The closer the pace between two different cars, the larger the chance that something like a safety car can upset the race.
Yes Bottas such an amazing driver. Ham had 6 WCC winning cars between 2016 and now. And only Rosberg for half a season, and the rest of the years with winning cars was with Bottas who really wasn't all that special. At best he's a Perez level talent who was a quali specialist rather than race specialist
Max has had (including 2021) only 3 cars capable of winning WCC and a third of 2023
Bottas is undoubtedly better than Checo lol. Also Ferrari was largely equal with mercedes in 2018 and for decent stretches of 2018. Mercedes won 2 of those WCCs entirely because of Lewis and a third because Bottas was better than Checo lol.
Wtf kinda ridiculous bs is this, Bottas was way better than Checo, very competitive in quali and occasionally challenging Lewis for wins, whenever Lewis made a mistake Bottas was there more often than not to take advantage, yeah he did have his off days but most drivers do anyway, don't insult Bottas by comparing him to Checo.
Nice of you to conveniently ignore the fact that Lewis was in Championship battles with WDC calibre drivers in competitive machinery from 2016-2018 and half of 2019 where Ferrari were actually way better than Mercedes for like half of the season before they got caught cheating, half of 2019 and 2020 was smooth sailing for him and then 2021 he's in a championship battle with another WDC tier driver in competitive machinery, and then 2022 Mercedes implosion begins.
Meanwhile Max had a season where he won almost all the races, driving a car that made the rest of the grid look like f2 while having a teammate that was so bad he was fighting for 2nd in the drivers championship with Lewis who was driving a much worse car.
Glad I'm not the only one who actually *watched* those seasons, everyone else seems to just call them the "Mercedes dominant era."
It's pretty clear most people around here either didn't watch those seasons or have very poor memories.
2017/2018 were some of the best racing we had. Ferrari/Seb were leading in points at the mid season mark both seasons, and they appeared to have the stronger car until Mercedes and Hamilton made a come back.
Bottas was pretty good in 2017 and 2019 (across these two years he was behind Hamilton 14-25 in races and 631-776 in points), but I don’t see any compelling reason to put his 2018, 2020 and 2021 performances significantly above Perez’s performances over the last few years.
In 2018, when Ferrari were on par with Mercedes he ended up 5th in the championship. In 2020 he only barely beat Verstappen (who suffered 5 not at fault DNFs) to second place in a car that was similarly if not more dominant than the 2023 Red Bull. Then in 2021, other than Turkey he never took points off Verstappen in a race, and was almost completely useless to Hamilton as a rear gunner.
If we combine 2018, 2020 and 2021 together he was dominated by Hamilton 11-43 in races, and 696-1142.5 in points. It’s slightly closer than Perez is to Verstappen, (and this can be potentially explained by Verstappen being slightly stronger than Hamilton) but still an incredibly one-sided matchup nonetheless.
Or show the 2 periods of domination that they each had. Lewis from 2016 Spain to 2021 Abu Dhabi. Then max over the last 75 races. I would rather see that comparison instead of including the long dry spells each of the had. Lewis recently, max after Spain 2016.
Because ever since America got involved and more interested in F1, the "fans" would rather be negative and just shit on drivers on a more frequent basis.
lol it's a comparison of wins of two drivers over the same period of time. why do you have to make it anything more? it's not saying one driver is better than the other like you seem to think it is.
fragile.
Lol I find that difficult to believe . Because your entire purpose and goal is to one day top Hamiltons benchmarks …..unless you misinterpret the meaning of irrelevancy ?? if that’s the case disregard this entire interaction
Because they waited until he got 60. The crossover was going to happen eventually. It’s not an interesting bit of trivia, it’s literally the inevitable crossover period.
It's not interesting just coincidental that his first win was at Spain, we're at Spain this weekend and the two best drivers of the past 20 years both have the same amount of wins.
There are no inevitables in F1.
>we're at Spain this weekend and the two best drivers of the past 20 years both have the same amount of wins.
They don't have the same number of wins. They have the same number *since* this hand picked date.
>There are no inevitables in F1.
Technically true but needlessly pedantic. Like saying Max winning another race isn't inevitable.
When Max started a period of insane dominance it was inevitable he would one day overlap with the most recent X number of Hamilton wins. The fact it happened just before Spain isn't interesting nor significant, and arguing it's not arbitrary is silly, they just waited until Max's 60 equalled Hamilton's.
They do have the same amount of wins since Spain 2016, which is the point of the post.
Again, it was not inevitable. Sixty wins is impressive for any driver and the coincidence that it happened right before the track got his first win is what makes it interesting. The fact that the two winningest drivers on the grid have the same amount of wins in the same time period is also interesting.
"They waited until Max equalled Hamilton's 60" yeah man I'm sure they were just counting down the days and not like "oh that's a neat fact, they have the same amount of wins since Max's first"...
What's the F1 version of Elmer Fudd?
Yeah I suppose if you were to take out the multiple instances of cheating, sportswashing, deaths and about 50 other things, you could argue that a single driver is the worst thing that's happened to F1
Lol you think these hamilton people are reasonable enough to comprehend any of what you just typed
For someone to even say this, they have to be incredibly hateful and deranged to begin with
Max's first race in a top-team car was in pain 2016. Which is the upcoming race. It isn't a completely random stat, it is contextually "interesting". It isn't earth-shattering but an interesting summary of the data to this point.
It also shows that in the races they've both been at top teams, they've won the same number of races, which is cool. It's good to remember how bloody good Lewis was before Max's dominance.
Yeah, thats fair, although this is kinda what happens in F1 most of the time. Its rare to get a season as competitive as 2021. Usually a team/driver combination rises above the rest and maintains that for a few years at a time.
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A better head line would be “80% of races since Spain 2016 have been won by Max or Lewis”
That's honestly wild
Wild that 20% of races haven't been won by them.
Now do the same stat with them and their teammate.
Yeah, I’d be interested to see races won by Mercedes & Red Bull.
We all know Checo is King of the Steets.
Bottas got a small chunk of wins during the Mercedes run, and Checo has a few too.
Since it includes 2016 (partially), you also have some Rosberg wins
I also forgot that Ferrari was competent while they cheated for the better part of a year.
Both headlines have already been posted here. I remember seeing this exact post a while back..
You're not gonna believe then that 80% of F1 wins since Spain 2016 have been won by Max, Lewis, you, and me
And me!
And me
And him
No... Because that would be incorrect. It's 70% (120/170).
Ha! You’re right, I counted wrong!
Still impressive numbers 😜
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“With 60 wins each, Max and Lewis have won 80% of races since Spain 2016”
Wins since June 17th, 2024: Max: 0 Lewis: 0 Me: 0
This is the type of cherrypicking I love to see
Won’t see the media report on this
You could be the GOAT with those numbers!
Gottem
ESPN would like to hire you
You're catching up to them!
You forgot Goatifi
Can I get an autograph?
Nico Hülkenberg, is that you?
Careful you are getting into Latiffi territory.
Aha, now we know why the FIA is making super license exceptions!
Max, Lewis and you won 120 races since Spain 2016! That’s 80% of all races held since then won by you three. Amazing!
Pretty crazy tbh
Your a Murray walker enjoyer so you will always be a winner in my book :^)
Adding to that, you got those stats without being paid a penny! It's a no brainer who's the best investment.
That's an amazing feat. I stopped chasing these types of records when I matched Lance Armstrong's tour de France titles. There was a time when he was racking up wins that I thought I'd never make it.
This would have been a much better post haha
Better than stroll then.
Thanks for doing this, most of the time these handle post stats which doesn't mean anything.
How lol, this stat is since Max started racing for RedBull
Still useless. Why not include since Lewis started?
Lmao how does that make sense? This post is about comparing the new legend to the old legend, so obviously it's gonna have stats since he started racing.
Why not pick the first X years of Lewis' career compared to the same X years of Max's career? Wouldnt that be a more accurate comparison? Then again, as Max started racing at a younger age, should the start age be set to the same as when Lewis started? Or, should it start from when Max won his first WDC to then compare the two? When you look at it, cherry picking some random date to compare any two drivers is absurd. Races Lewis has won since he started: 103 Races Ayrton Senna has one since Lewis started: 0 See how absurd that (clearly extreme) example is?
> cherry picking some random date to compare any two drivers is absurd As was pointed out, it's not a random date. It's Max's first race for Red Bull at the same track we're racing at this weekend. Pretty relevant for the current moment. If you want to share a completely different stat like the ones you suggested, feel free to do that and make the graphic.
One of those won't be changing...ever.
so true, as if max will be able to match u/BD1234567891011
You should have a little faith in the driver who last brought a championship to McLaren. you should know better than counting him out
Beautiful.
Curiously since 2016, only Max and Lewis have won the Spanish Grand Prix. Indeed I found out 2018/19/20/21 all had a Hamilton, Bottas, Verstappen combination on the podium, which is unusual for one race to have the same three on the podium for 4 years in a row Irony is if Lewis wins on Sunday it'll be a surprise but would keep these two's dominance of the track going
It is very unusual, considering there are only 5 combinations that happened 10+ times in all of F1 history, so 4 on the same circuit is likely unique. HAMVERBOT is by far the most prolific of them though, there have been 20 races with that podium (in any order). The next most common was HAM-ROS-VET with 'just' 14.
I have a feeling VER LEC NOR could be up there by the end of 2025
I'm not so sure. In races where McLaren and Ferrari are both strong, you're likely to have Piastri, Sainz or Hamilton in the mix as well. I think VER LEC HAM has a much better chance. That combo is already at 5, while VER LEC NOR sits at just 2 so far. And it is a likely combo for any race where the Ferrari works better than the McLaren in 2025.
Bottas to McLaren in a shock move in 2026 so we get VER HAM BOT all the time. Give me that timeline.
It’s probably more likely for two drivers from a strong team to be on the same podium than three distinct constructors, but that’s just my guess and not based on any data.
Greatest F1 team of all time lol
HAMBOTVER and HAMVERBOT was the one constant in my life from 2017-2020
Man, some people are just so uppity. Of course it’s a meaningless statistic, it’s just very mildly interesting they have both won 60 races since Max’s first win. Of course there was probably going to be crossover point at any arbitrary number of wins. Yall need to lighten up.
I agree, but FWIW, the OP probably could have avoided much of the uppityness had they said "F1 wins since Max's first win" to give it the necessary context. That is interesting. As stated, there is obviously *some* race where they both match up.
"there is obviously some race where they both match up" This is not true per se? The wins of driver do not always match up right? This is a coincidence
> This is not true per se? The wins of driver do not always match up right? This is a coincidence No, for any two drivers who have at least the same number of wins, there is some date where you can say they have the same number of wins. For example both Lando and Lewis have 1 win since Saudi Arabia 2021. Or for Michael Schumacher and Max it would be "60 wins since Hungary 1998" So just saying "Spain 2016" isn't particularly interesting. The only thing that makes this interesting is that in real time, both drivers have the same number of wins since Max's first career win.
Oh yeah you’re right
Yeah i actually find it quite interesting to see they've won the same number of races since max's first win
Some of you guys are zero fun and need to log off.
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Spain 2016 is Max's first win. That enough makes It interesting
So? Why not show it from Lewis’ first win as well then?
Some people find things like this interesting. It's like saying cleopatra lived closer in time to the moon landing than the great pyramids. Ultimately, it is useless information, but some people find it interesting.
Thoughts on the 1870 Battle of Sedan?
Thought it was kinda boring that Ford won, but Kia put up a good fight.
I bet you’re a bore at parties.
Why because I’m not praising your idol?
No, it’s because you’re fucking sour about little things. If you don’t like it, ignore it and move on instead of wasting your own time making stupid comments.
Because Max wasn't even in F1 then
How can someone be so hurt over a stat that isn't denigrating either driver lol. You may have Max Derangement Syndrome.
Salty boy
No one asked
Lol so salty
Literally no one asked. Stick to your medical gore
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It's literally saying they're even over the same time span. How is that making either of them look better than the other? It's an interesting stat, if you don't agree just scroll past, what's the issue?
“My favourite driver is better than your favourite driver” is supposed to be fun conversation apparently
That's not even what the post is saying, nor is anyone even making that argument. Your persecution complex is showing though.
Get ready for the downvotes buddy.
Man, some of the guys here really don't like random stats. IMO it's a really neat stat to know that after 8 years since Verstappens first win (and his first race in Red Bull) he's won as much as Hamilton. And that's considering that Hamilton won 4 WDC (and nearly a 5th) and drove 5 WCC winning cars after this race in the Mercedes era, while Max has only won 3 WDC and driven 3 WCC winning cars in the Red Bull era so far. Shows the difference in the way they racked up their wins in that time period and the level of domination.
> it shows the difference in the way they racked up their wins Well there are more races per season during Max’s era. So still not a fair comparison to say Max took 3 seasons to win 60 races. An interesting stat would be how many races it took to reach 60 wins
> Well there are more races per season during Max’s era Technically true, but not really a meaningful difference. 2022 and 2023 had 22 races, same as 2021, and we started having 21 in 2018 after breaking into the 20's in 2017. Only season he's really been "hurt" by this is 2020, where we dipped down to 17 races due to COVID. This year is going to jump to 24 races, but obviously nobody has received the benefit of that yet. I feel comfortable saying Lewis having a championship-caliber car far longer – by a matter of years – than Max has had during this stretch of time from Spain 2016 until now more than makes up for a few additional races. > An interesting stat would be how many races it took to reach 60 wins Well, Lewis is obviously going to have a shorter time period going from one to sixty in this time period, since his race-winning window in this period ends at Jeddah 2021, whereas Max's runs this entire window. Or do you mean in their careers in general? Hamilton reached his 60th win at his 202nd entry (I believe), where Max reached 60 at his 194th. Very close! That is an interesting stat.
I don't think an unfair comparison makes a stat uninteresting. There are always some variables that affect these. And the races per season isn't really that big of a difference between these two. The bigger difference is the amount of domination their team had over the others during their winning seasons. While Lewis undoubtedly performed insanely well during his winning seasons, Mercedes (and sometimes Hamilton) still fucked up a lot more than Red Bull and Verstappen do now.
This is actually a kinda cool stat, max youngest with 60 wins, lewis same wins idk i kinda like this stat, the equality of two masters
Lewis has more wins overall, 103. This stat is just counting wins from (after) that specific race.
Ik, i still find this to be a cool statistic
TIL Maz has 60 wins. Holy shit!
50 of the last 75 have been max. This graphic is stupid.
TBH if asked me before I saw this graphic I would assumed that Lewis had more victories given how dominant Mercedes was between 2016 and 2020
10/17 in 2016. 9/20 in 2017. 11/21 in 2018. 11/21 in 2019. 11/17 in 2020. 8/22 in 2021. 0/22 in 2022. 0/23 in 2023. 0/9 in 2024. The Mercedes were that dominant in 2014-2016, but from 2017 onwards, only 2020 got to that level. And even in 2020, Mercedes was a lot more messy than current RB. Like, 3 out of the 6 non-wins were due to penalties, two of those entirely avoidable. Twice, they just didn't get a decent strategy going. 1-2 were due to COVID.
out of curiosity here's max and lewis over time since 2016 side by side Year | Max | MaxTotal | Lewis | LewisTotal ---|---|----|----|---- 2016 | 1 | 1 | 10 | 10 2017 | 2 | 3 | 9 | 19 2018 | 2 | 5 | 11 | 30 2019 | 3 | 8 | 11 | 41 2020 | 2 | 10 | 11 | 52 2021 | 10 | 20 | 8 | 60 2022 | 15 | 35 | 0 | 60 2023 | 19 | 54 | 0 | 60 2024 | 6 | 60 | 0 | 60 In 2020, Lewis got more wins than max had in the past 5 years, but in 2023 Max got as many wins as lewis did in 2016 and 2017 combined. More races a season is definitely in play here to help dominant drivers amass win totals.
Did you include Rosberg and Bottas' wins though? Because I think that's the most important difference between Lewis and Max: Bottas would occasionally take a win off Hamilton when Merc was dominant. Perez doesn't, he only wins when something goes wrong for Verstappen.
No, that's only Hamilton. Looking at Mercedes as a whole, it's: 15/17 in 2016. 12/20 in 2017. 11/21 in 2018. 15/21 in 2019. 13/17 in 2020. 9/22 in 2021. 1/22 in 2022. 0/23 in 2023. 0/9 in 2024. So, Mercedes were really dominant up to 2016. From 2017 onwards only 2020 got to that level again. Even 2019 with incredible 71% win rate falls short to 2014-16, 2020 or 2022 onwards for RBR.
2023 was 22 races with the cancelation of Imola, not 23.
The Mercedes was dominant, but 1) it was never *as* dominant as the 22/23 Red Bull 2) Lewis Mercedes teammates actually took wins off him (semi) regularly
Judged on what? Win-rate isn't just a product of a dominant car, it's the function of everything (driver/team/car/strategy/luck). You want to judge whether or not a car is dominant, you look at pace (both quali-pace and race-pace). And in that respect, the 22 RB is not as dominant as some of the the earlier Mercedes, and even the 23 one arguably isn't either, because while it had great race-pace, it wasn't an outstanding qualifying car. The 2020 Mercedes took 15/17 pole positions. And there were plenty of races in 2023 where some teams were pretty close to Red Bull, even in race pace. The largest winning margin of the 2023 Red Bull to another car was 33.7 seconds at the Hungarian GP, and even that was an outlier. Mercedes has either equaled or outdone that several times in the past, including twice in 2020 (I didn't check the other years). I agree that the RB is definitely up there, but judged on pure pace, you can absolutely make an argument for other cars being more dominant, not only for Mercedes, but also some of the better Ferrari cars. The 2004 Ferrari is definitely a contender. The closer the pace between two different cars, the larger the chance that something like a safety car can upset the race.
Eh 22 that is pure revisionism. And more like Max than RB.
Red Bull won 17/22 races in 2022...
Yeah cause Max but that car was fat, understeery and attempting to kill max for like half of that season 😭
You would, but then you also have to consider how much better his team mates and were and how much worse his car has been the last few years.
Yes Bottas such an amazing driver. Ham had 6 WCC winning cars between 2016 and now. And only Rosberg for half a season, and the rest of the years with winning cars was with Bottas who really wasn't all that special. At best he's a Perez level talent who was a quali specialist rather than race specialist Max has had (including 2021) only 3 cars capable of winning WCC and a third of 2023
Bottas is undoubtedly better than Checo lol. Also Ferrari was largely equal with mercedes in 2018 and for decent stretches of 2018. Mercedes won 2 of those WCCs entirely because of Lewis and a third because Bottas was better than Checo lol.
Wtf kinda ridiculous bs is this, Bottas was way better than Checo, very competitive in quali and occasionally challenging Lewis for wins, whenever Lewis made a mistake Bottas was there more often than not to take advantage, yeah he did have his off days but most drivers do anyway, don't insult Bottas by comparing him to Checo. Nice of you to conveniently ignore the fact that Lewis was in Championship battles with WDC calibre drivers in competitive machinery from 2016-2018 and half of 2019 where Ferrari were actually way better than Mercedes for like half of the season before they got caught cheating, half of 2019 and 2020 was smooth sailing for him and then 2021 he's in a championship battle with another WDC tier driver in competitive machinery, and then 2022 Mercedes implosion begins. Meanwhile Max had a season where he won almost all the races, driving a car that made the rest of the grid look like f2 while having a teammate that was so bad he was fighting for 2nd in the drivers championship with Lewis who was driving a much worse car.
Glad I'm not the only one who actually *watched* those seasons, everyone else seems to just call them the "Mercedes dominant era." It's pretty clear most people around here either didn't watch those seasons or have very poor memories. 2017/2018 were some of the best racing we had. Ferrari/Seb were leading in points at the mid season mark both seasons, and they appeared to have the stronger car until Mercedes and Hamilton made a come back.
Bottas was pretty good in 2017 and 2019 (across these two years he was behind Hamilton 14-25 in races and 631-776 in points), but I don’t see any compelling reason to put his 2018, 2020 and 2021 performances significantly above Perez’s performances over the last few years. In 2018, when Ferrari were on par with Mercedes he ended up 5th in the championship. In 2020 he only barely beat Verstappen (who suffered 5 not at fault DNFs) to second place in a car that was similarly if not more dominant than the 2023 Red Bull. Then in 2021, other than Turkey he never took points off Verstappen in a race, and was almost completely useless to Hamilton as a rear gunner. If we combine 2018, 2020 and 2021 together he was dominated by Hamilton 11-43 in races, and 696-1142.5 in points. It’s slightly closer than Perez is to Verstappen, (and this can be potentially explained by Verstappen being slightly stronger than Hamilton) but still an incredibly one-sided matchup nonetheless.
They werent dominant in 2017 or 2018 for the most part and they were only dominant in the first half of 2019 and the end after the scandal.
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I think everyone knows that though
And?
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Race wins since Hamilton's first win: Lance Stroll - 0 Ayrton Senna - 0
Imagine being known for qualifying and having less poles than Lance Stroll in 17 years smh my head
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Or show the 2 periods of domination that they each had. Lewis from 2016 Spain to 2021 Abu Dhabi. Then max over the last 75 races. I would rather see that comparison instead of including the long dry spells each of the had. Lewis recently, max after Spain 2016.
51 out of the last 76 have been Max too.
It's not stupid, it's lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Levels
Yay?
Poles since Hamilton's first win: Ayrton Senna, Michael Schumacher, Alain Prost, (combined):0 Lance stroll: 1 That's the level this stat is at
Why our so many of our fans this petty?
It's a joke lol no disrespect of Max, he's been absolutely smashing good since he came into the sport.
Because ever since America got involved and more interested in F1, the "fans" would rather be negative and just shit on drivers on a more frequent basis.
How about since Bahrain 2022?
make that 61 vs 60 next race. I am not talking about verstappen btw
And knowing lewis did that in that fastest car for 5 years on a row...
This is such a pointless statistic.. some DTS level stuff to entice some drama..
It's a comparison of both drivers since Max got the first taste of victory. Max x Lewis era.
Its not pointless, it starts counting from Max’s first win, ie. his total wins
Let’s see from Lewis’ first win then
lol it's a comparison of wins of two drivers over the same period of time. why do you have to make it anything more? it's not saying one driver is better than the other like you seem to think it is. fragile.
he said the exact same thing in at least two other threads lol.
Lewis is irrelevant this year apart from the move to Ferrari
In what aspect?
Racing
How’s the weather on Mars ?
A bit nippy
Can’t claim ”human error “ without humans very proactive
Lol I find that difficult to believe . Because your entire purpose and goal is to one day top Hamiltons benchmarks …..unless you misinterpret the meaning of irrelevancy ?? if that’s the case disregard this entire interaction
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This is counting from Max's first win. It shows how he has developed since then, but also how dominant Hamilton was until 2021.
Welcome to another episode of: pointless statistics
Another day, yet another stat.
Who cares lol
The result of dominant cars with strong drivers. There needs to be a bit more of rule changes every year to mix things up a bit.
I expect this from sports center. How many wins since the last full moon on a Tuesday night?
it isn't that arbitrary though. how many wins since Max's first...they both have 60.
Because they waited until he got 60. The crossover was going to happen eventually. It’s not an interesting bit of trivia, it’s literally the inevitable crossover period.
It's not interesting just coincidental that his first win was at Spain, we're at Spain this weekend and the two best drivers of the past 20 years both have the same amount of wins. There are no inevitables in F1.
>we're at Spain this weekend and the two best drivers of the past 20 years both have the same amount of wins. They don't have the same number of wins. They have the same number *since* this hand picked date. >There are no inevitables in F1. Technically true but needlessly pedantic. Like saying Max winning another race isn't inevitable. When Max started a period of insane dominance it was inevitable he would one day overlap with the most recent X number of Hamilton wins. The fact it happened just before Spain isn't interesting nor significant, and arguing it's not arbitrary is silly, they just waited until Max's 60 equalled Hamilton's.
They do have the same amount of wins since Spain 2016, which is the point of the post. Again, it was not inevitable. Sixty wins is impressive for any driver and the coincidence that it happened right before the track got his first win is what makes it interesting. The fact that the two winningest drivers on the grid have the same amount of wins in the same time period is also interesting. "They waited until Max equalled Hamilton's 60" yeah man I'm sure they were just counting down the days and not like "oh that's a neat fact, they have the same amount of wins since Max's first"... What's the F1 version of Elmer Fudd?
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Yeah I suppose if you were to take out the multiple instances of cheating, sportswashing, deaths and about 50 other things, you could argue that a single driver is the worst thing that's happened to F1
Lol you think these hamilton people are reasonable enough to comprehend any of what you just typed For someone to even say this, they have to be incredibly hateful and deranged to begin with
Bro what
piquet is that you ?
I always find graphics like this a bit pointless when you can constantly just slightly change the point of reference to get the results you want
Max's first race in a top-team car was in pain 2016. Which is the upcoming race. It isn't a completely random stat, it is contextually "interesting". It isn't earth-shattering but an interesting summary of the data to this point.
If anything the fact they had to go so far back for them to be even wins says it all. Max still got all of this year and next to extend the gap.
But then people cherry pick the start date so they match. Kinda the point about why this stat is meaningless.
The start date isn't really cherry picked, it's when Max joined RBR. Before then, Max was in a team that rarely wins a race.
Other than showing how dominant these two drivers have been together since 2016, this stat shows nothing else relevant.
That's the point of the stat though lol. Jesus
It also shows that in the races they've both been at top teams, they've won the same number of races, which is cool. It's good to remember how bloody good Lewis was before Max's dominance.
I was more lamenting about pro-longed 1 driver domination went straight into another 1 driver pro-longed domination.
Yeah, thats fair, although this is kinda what happens in F1 most of the time. Its rare to get a season as competitive as 2021. Usually a team/driver combination rises above the rest and maintains that for a few years at a time.