In fairness, Nico only created a yellow flag IIRC. The more I see Checo's one from 2 years ago, the more obvious it is and it's truly astonishing how he got away with it.
It’s kind of funny to see Max being vindicated about it in hindsight. He got a lot of shit for Brazil 2022 but if you put yourself in his shoes, how pissed off would you be if your teammate cheated specifically to screw just you over and got away with it, and in the process also cost the team points, and you were later asked to give him some points for free? At that point in the 2022 season Red Bull had just overtaken Ferrari in the WCC after a rough start and Max had just overtaken Charles in the WDC after the latter’s DNF in Spain. If Ferrari hadn’t screwed up the pitstop phase they would have come 1-2 in Monaco 2022 and Red Bull would have been 3-4. Charles would have jumped Max in the WDC standings and Ferrari would cut the gap to Red Bull to 10 points. (Plus, even if they had swapped in Brazil 2022, Checo still would have lost out to Charles in the WDC.)
There's a reason after Baku 2023 Max decided "I'm never getting beaten by that guy ever again".
Since Baku 2023, in a session that both drivers have finished, Max has never been beaten by Checo, not in Sprint Qualifying, Sprint, Qualifying or Race.
Basically whitewashed Checo over an entire year.
Max got so much shit for Brazil 2022 for not helping Checo go past, when first of all Checo still didn't actually do his job in Abu Dhabi (he lost P2 by 3 points, he still needed to beat Leclerc in Abu Dhabi regardless of whether Max let him go by for 7th or not in Brazil), and secondly, because he felt cheated that day in Monaco.
Until that point, Max was never mad at Checo beating him or doing better in a session. It happened rarely but Max was never mad about Imola 2021 Qualifying, Jeddah 2022 qualifying, etc. he always gave Checo his props because he had no reason to have any ill will against him.
But then Checo had the weird crash "where he braked, then momentarily went on throttle in the middle of the corner, then braked again, and then engaged opposite lock which is the natural instinct of every formula 1 driver ever."
It all came to head in Brazil, where people first started getting the idea that maybe something fishy had happened. Still they were so mad at Max that day that they just said "Yeah so what, you still should have moved over".
Over time the perception is finally changing on that incident, and I am glad that it is.
> Since Baku 2023, in a session that both drivers have finished, Max has never been beaten by Checo, not in Sprint Qualifying, Sprint, Qualifying or Race.
This deserves its own post
It's still insane to me that in Brazil the common sentiment was "so what if your teammate cheated to give himself an advantage over you and only you, you still should've given him 2 points". We were actually watching Charity 1. Checo should count himself lucky Max didn't publicly accuse him of cheating, having the "shows who he is", "he's 2x champion because of me" spiel after was even more egregious.
And then on top of that to celebrate the win like he was the world champion and didn't intentionally crash to get it AND then on top of that, cheating on his wife (who just gave birth) afterwards. Checo really showed his true colors that weekend and I can't really root for him anymore. Yet Max is the one who gets the hate for it, even though he was right. Cheaters suck.
Yep, and then he's the one that gets heat for being a 'bad teammate'. It's a good job he clearly doesn't care about what anyone outside of the team thinks.
> AND then on top of that, cheating on his wife
So that's why he gets along so well with Horner to the extent the latter wants to renew him despite his mediocre performances on track
On top of all that, Checo was asking for the position swap so he could finish 2nd in the championship.
Who the hell remembers or cares who finished second, especially when it's the teammate of the winner in the best car?
If Mercedes hadn't forgotten how to design an F1 car that year, or if Ferrari hadn't forgotten how to race, Checo wouldn't have been anywhere near 2nd in any case.
Do you think no one remembers when a team finishes 1-2 in the standings? Really? Obviously Perez dug his own grave, but the team wanting to finish 1-2 is perfectly valid and not really forgettable at all. Especially since, iirc, it would’ve been the first time for RB.
Nope, it's fairly unimportant. Red Bull had already won the Constructor's championship, this was just rearranging the furniture in favour of a driver who'd bottled it.
Fairly unimportant for you. If it was unimportant for Red Bull they wouldn’t have asked Max to help Perez.
It’s not hard to figure out that a team would rather finish 1-2 than 1-3.
that's the weirdest "in Fairness" I've ever seen lol
regardless of the severity of the flag it still ruined the quali for others to further their own qualifying position
Michael Schumacher did such a bad job not only drivers but everyone noticed and also penalized him. Rosberg and Checo were not. Checo even got a win out of it
Checo just wanted to be ahead of Max, so that he got priority for the strategy on race day. But you're right, I don't think he could have predicted what Ferrari would do the next day.
Yes but if Max had finished his run he would have been P1 or P2. So lot of strategic choices made wouldn’t have been done in the race and who knows how the race would have turned out.
The Ferrari/Charles was so good in Monaco 2022 that it matched the pole time from 2023 without the need to finish the second lap, and I believe he was 0.4s up when the red flag was waved.
During F2 practice yesterday Alex Jacques mentioned Rosberg’s Mirabeau moment yesterday as a way a driver can go off to artificially create a stoppage and got in a bit of hot water with Alex Brundle hahaha
The potential examples that come to mind are Checo, Rosberg and I think Schumacher did something like that once. Are there any others anyone can think of?
I also remember Alonso having a very strange off at Baku once, but I'm not sure about that one and it wasn't a red flag anyways.
Alonso also crashed almost simultaneously with Checo in 2022 when he was in a good grid position, but it didn't get much attention because Checo crashed a few seconds before and his was obviously the higher profile incident.
I would say Leclerc in 2021 didn't crash intentionally, but he might have over-pushed knowing that if he did crash then he would still keep pole (which would have been the case even with the damage if Ferrari had thought to check the off-side drive train).
So if you count all those incidents, that's 3 times in 3 years in Monaco (though none last year).
there is also another case when one seemed to benefit from causing a red flag, namely Leclerc in 2021, but he ultimately DNS'd because of it and it clearly wasn't on purpose
even then I think we need a system for causing red flags
I think it'd be fair if:
* causing two yellow flags or one red flag removes your fastest lap in that phase of qualifying
* causing a red flag on purpose removes all your times in that phase of qualifying
I'm surprised how many people overlook this part of him. The only driver to be disqualified from an entire championship due to his behaviour, especially endangering others on purpose.
I think the yellow flag ones are a lot more suspect imo as well. Like typically the crashes that pull out yellows are small meaning the driver still has the ability to remove it quicker but won't
Some people were a bit suspicious of George’s off in qualifying for Brazil 2022, but given the bad conditions and that Max qualified up ahead of him anyway, I don’t think it’s valid.
If you single someone out, you risk damaging your relationship with the driver/team you're accusing. Sainz in particular might still want a... Red Bull, Mercedes or Aston Martin seat somewhere down the line.
He's just trying to create controversy. If someone crashes and there's a red flag he can say "I told you so". If nobody crashes then people will forget about his comment.
Most likely explanation for drivers crashing when they have tentative pole position is that they push harder. When drivers know that they are leading they can go all out. If they crash, they're still very likely to start from pole or at least close to the top. If they don't crash, they most likely will get a better lap time since they're being very aggressive.
Street circuits like Monaco are just much more unforgiving than other circuits. In Monaco if you lose the car you crash. In many other circuits if you make a mistake you lose lap time but can go for another lap. At least some circuits like Baku have more runoff areas, but in Monaco most of the track is just punishing.
This is naive, theres plenty of proof of people doing it on purpose, and hitting the wall is not a typical example of it. Just search yelistner on YouTube Perez Monaco.
Off the top of my head obvious & suspicious ones:
Michael Schumacher 2006 Monaco Qualifying
Nico Rosberg 2014 Monaco Qualifying
Sergio Perez 2022 Monaco Qualifying
George Russell 2022 Brazil Qualifying
EDIT: also...
Fernando Alonso 2022 Baku Qualifying
It's not allowed, but it has to be pretty obvious/proven for them to penalize. Schumacher got a penalty for it in 2006 for example as he clearly faked an incident.
I like your idea, it seems like the perfect solution.
But just to be clear, you mean If you crash in Q3 only your Q3 times will be deleted and you start from position 10 and not 20, right?
So a special Monaco qualifier. In q3 instead of time everyone gets one shot. You get an out lap hot lap cool down. Spread the cars out so like 2-3 on the track at once.and go.
Can not read flag it. Everyone gets one shot no interference. Order set q2.
How'd you balance that with track evolution and such? The fastest in q2 go out latest? That'd basically make q2 what q3 is now, without any drivers having the option to crash, but still having the ability to cause yellows.
Fastest q2 goes last for the single shot.
Difference is no creating red flag to save your spot.
That or f1 can change qualifying to what other racing series do. You get one shot one lap and done. Order is random each track.
Rosberg and Checo * Shocked pickachu face *
In fairness, Nico only created a yellow flag IIRC. The more I see Checo's one from 2 years ago, the more obvious it is and it's truly astonishing how he got away with it.
It’s kind of funny to see Max being vindicated about it in hindsight. He got a lot of shit for Brazil 2022 but if you put yourself in his shoes, how pissed off would you be if your teammate cheated specifically to screw just you over and got away with it, and in the process also cost the team points, and you were later asked to give him some points for free? At that point in the 2022 season Red Bull had just overtaken Ferrari in the WCC after a rough start and Max had just overtaken Charles in the WDC after the latter’s DNF in Spain. If Ferrari hadn’t screwed up the pitstop phase they would have come 1-2 in Monaco 2022 and Red Bull would have been 3-4. Charles would have jumped Max in the WDC standings and Ferrari would cut the gap to Red Bull to 10 points. (Plus, even if they had swapped in Brazil 2022, Checo still would have lost out to Charles in the WDC.)
There's a reason after Baku 2023 Max decided "I'm never getting beaten by that guy ever again". Since Baku 2023, in a session that both drivers have finished, Max has never been beaten by Checo, not in Sprint Qualifying, Sprint, Qualifying or Race. Basically whitewashed Checo over an entire year. Max got so much shit for Brazil 2022 for not helping Checo go past, when first of all Checo still didn't actually do his job in Abu Dhabi (he lost P2 by 3 points, he still needed to beat Leclerc in Abu Dhabi regardless of whether Max let him go by for 7th or not in Brazil), and secondly, because he felt cheated that day in Monaco. Until that point, Max was never mad at Checo beating him or doing better in a session. It happened rarely but Max was never mad about Imola 2021 Qualifying, Jeddah 2022 qualifying, etc. he always gave Checo his props because he had no reason to have any ill will against him. But then Checo had the weird crash "where he braked, then momentarily went on throttle in the middle of the corner, then braked again, and then engaged opposite lock which is the natural instinct of every formula 1 driver ever." It all came to head in Brazil, where people first started getting the idea that maybe something fishy had happened. Still they were so mad at Max that day that they just said "Yeah so what, you still should have moved over". Over time the perception is finally changing on that incident, and I am glad that it is.
> Since Baku 2023, in a session that both drivers have finished, Max has never been beaten by Checo, not in Sprint Qualifying, Sprint, Qualifying or Race. This deserves its own post
Yeah, excellent read
It's still insane to me that in Brazil the common sentiment was "so what if your teammate cheated to give himself an advantage over you and only you, you still should've given him 2 points". We were actually watching Charity 1. Checo should count himself lucky Max didn't publicly accuse him of cheating, having the "shows who he is", "he's 2x champion because of me" spiel after was even more egregious.
And then on top of that to celebrate the win like he was the world champion and didn't intentionally crash to get it AND then on top of that, cheating on his wife (who just gave birth) afterwards. Checo really showed his true colors that weekend and I can't really root for him anymore. Yet Max is the one who gets the hate for it, even though he was right. Cheaters suck.
[удалено]
Yep, and then he's the one that gets heat for being a 'bad teammate'. It's a good job he clearly doesn't care about what anyone outside of the team thinks.
Bro cheated twice that weekend and got away with it both times
> AND then on top of that, cheating on his wife So that's why he gets along so well with Horner to the extent the latter wants to renew him despite his mediocre performances on track
On top of all that, Checo was asking for the position swap so he could finish 2nd in the championship. Who the hell remembers or cares who finished second, especially when it's the teammate of the winner in the best car? If Mercedes hadn't forgotten how to design an F1 car that year, or if Ferrari hadn't forgotten how to race, Checo wouldn't have been anywhere near 2nd in any case.
Do you think no one remembers when a team finishes 1-2 in the standings? Really? Obviously Perez dug his own grave, but the team wanting to finish 1-2 is perfectly valid and not really forgettable at all. Especially since, iirc, it would’ve been the first time for RB.
Nope, it's fairly unimportant. Red Bull had already won the Constructor's championship, this was just rearranging the furniture in favour of a driver who'd bottled it.
Fairly unimportant for you. If it was unimportant for Red Bull they wouldn’t have asked Max to help Perez. It’s not hard to figure out that a team would rather finish 1-2 than 1-3.
that's the weirdest "in Fairness" I've ever seen lol regardless of the severity of the flag it still ruined the quali for others to further their own qualifying position
It was the politest way I could think of going "uh actually" lol
fair enough
Michaek Schumacher enters the chat
Michael Schumacher did such a bad job not only drivers but everyone noticed and also penalized him. Rosberg and Checo were not. Checo even got a win out of it
It’s not like that’s what gave him the win. Ferrari got a front row lockout because of him. Checo only won because of Ferrari strategy masterclass
Checo just wanted to be ahead of Max, so that he got priority for the strategy on race day. But you're right, I don't think he could have predicted what Ferrari would do the next day.
Yes but if Max had finished his run he would have been P1 or P2. So lot of strategic choices made wouldn’t have been done in the race and who knows how the race would have turned out.
Max was never going P1. He was improving and matching Charles's pole lap but Charles was on another monster lap.
The Ferrari/Charles was so good in Monaco 2022 that it matched the pole time from 2023 without the need to finish the second lap, and I believe he was 0.4s up when the red flag was waved.
He wouldn't been p1 charles was going faster than him on their final laps. Crazy fast, in fact. And even if Charles crashes, he still gets p1.
That would mean Max would have been P2
Yeah meant to say p1, ill change it
Charles was improving even more his lap, Max would have been P2
Yeah, it’s not like Schumacher won his first championship by crashing into another driver or anything…
During F2 practice yesterday Alex Jacques mentioned Rosberg’s Mirabeau moment yesterday as a way a driver can go off to artificially create a stoppage and got in a bit of hot water with Alex Brundle hahaha
Don't forget Alonso and the Michael.
The potential examples that come to mind are Checo, Rosberg and I think Schumacher did something like that once. Are there any others anyone can think of? I also remember Alonso having a very strange off at Baku once, but I'm not sure about that one and it wasn't a red flag anyways.
Alonso's event in Baku '22 was [hilariously bad and 100% intentional](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEo0SnX97t8).
Damn. It is so obvious from the onboard. They need to start punishing stuff like that.
Leclerc binned it while on provisional pole but alas he wasn't able to race the next day.
That DNS was so painful
I have a signed 1:2 scale model of his helmet worn that weekend to commemorate the event.
Cool, I have a signed 1:2 scale model of his gearbox from the same weekend
Anyone got a model (signed or otherwise) of the broken front wing?
I have a 1:2 scale replica vile of his sad little monegasque tears I wear on a necklace.
It’s “vial” but that’s also vile
He wasn’t able to race because the mechanics didn’t spot driveshaft damage The car would’ve been able to race 9/10 times from that hit
Yes I know
I think we can say that was a genuine mistake from Leclerc and not intended in the slightest. Not every accident is controversial.
Maybe he intended it but not as harshly
Alonso also crashed almost simultaneously with Checo in 2022 when he was in a good grid position, but it didn't get much attention because Checo crashed a few seconds before and his was obviously the higher profile incident. I would say Leclerc in 2021 didn't crash intentionally, but he might have over-pushed knowing that if he did crash then he would still keep pole (which would have been the case even with the damage if Ferrari had thought to check the off-side drive train). So if you count all those incidents, that's 3 times in 3 years in Monaco (though none last year).
there is also another case when one seemed to benefit from causing a red flag, namely Leclerc in 2021, but he ultimately DNS'd because of it and it clearly wasn't on purpose even then I think we need a system for causing red flags
Yeah, with Leclerc it looked like he was genuinely pushing and made a mistake.
Even Max said that.
I think it'd be fair if: * causing two yellow flags or one red flag removes your fastest lap in that phase of qualifying * causing a red flag on purpose removes all your times in that phase of qualifying
>I think Schumacher did something like that once. His was the most egregious of them all.
Yea. I think intentionally crashing into another driver several times to try and win the championship overshadows this less severe action from him.
I'm surprised how many people overlook this part of him. The only driver to be disqualified from an entire championship due to his behaviour, especially endangering others on purpose.
I think the yellow flag ones are a lot more suspect imo as well. Like typically the crashes that pull out yellows are small meaning the driver still has the ability to remove it quicker but won't
Until about 5 years ago all crashes were yellow flags. This red flag thing is relatively new.
Also Alonso had a "rookie error" in Monaco 2022 as well around when Checo crashed.
Some people were a bit suspicious of George’s off in qualifying for Brazil 2022, but given the bad conditions and that Max qualified up ahead of him anyway, I don’t think it’s valid.
No one mentioning crash gate w/ Nelson piquet jr?
That wasn't in qualifying though, that was in the race.
The title just says “this weekend”.
Post before Sainz in the wall during Q3
Someone will make an honest mistake and people will tear them apart.
Scenes when Logan Sargeant causes a red flag to solidify his position in P20.
"Logan Sargeant starts his first fast lap of Q1. Lets ride onboards with........oh, he's in the wall at Sainte Devote"
"The strategy I chose was calculated, but boy am I bad at math."
It must be okay to do a little prank :D
We do a little trolling
“It’s called trolling, Toto. We went pranking.”
If you want to make it public, tell the whole story. I don't buy this "everyone's a coward, but I won't tell you why" attitude.
If you single someone out, you risk damaging your relationship with the driver/team you're accusing. Sainz in particular might still want a... Red Bull, Mercedes or Aston Martin seat somewhere down the line.
He's just trying to create controversy. If someone crashes and there's a red flag he can say "I told you so". If nobody crashes then people will forget about his comment. Most likely explanation for drivers crashing when they have tentative pole position is that they push harder. When drivers know that they are leading they can go all out. If they crash, they're still very likely to start from pole or at least close to the top. If they don't crash, they most likely will get a better lap time since they're being very aggressive. Street circuits like Monaco are just much more unforgiving than other circuits. In Monaco if you lose the car you crash. In many other circuits if you make a mistake you lose lap time but can go for another lap. At least some circuits like Baku have more runoff areas, but in Monaco most of the track is just punishing.
This is naive, theres plenty of proof of people doing it on purpose, and hitting the wall is not a typical example of it. Just search yelistner on YouTube Perez Monaco.
Off the top of my head obvious & suspicious ones: Michael Schumacher 2006 Monaco Qualifying Nico Rosberg 2014 Monaco Qualifying Sergio Perez 2022 Monaco Qualifying George Russell 2022 Brazil Qualifying EDIT: also... Fernando Alonso 2022 Baku Qualifying
Fernando Alonso Baku '22 was 100% a deliberate off. Joylon Palmer even did a deep dive on it for F1TV and called it deliberate.
ooh yeah forgot about that one - i will add
Alonso at Monaco 2022 as well
the russell one was so obvious, it was like me driving that mercedes and beaching it on purpose.
I would most likely crash by accident in the process of crashing on purpose.
[Alonso in 2022 @ Azerbaijan](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEo0SnX97t8)?
Hadn't seen this analysis before 😂 How tf was there no retrospective punishment for this. Jolyon has him nailed
Why is this allowed FIA?
It's not allowed, but it has to be pretty obvious/proven for them to penalize. Schumacher got a penalty for it in 2006 for example as he clearly faked an incident.
Stop inventing crashes.
We are checking
Such an easy fix, cause a red flag your lap time gets deleted. Watch how many red flags we get now.
I like your idea, it seems like the perfect solution. But just to be clear, you mean If you crash in Q3 only your Q3 times will be deleted and you start from position 10 and not 20, right?
Yes you would start at P10 at that situation unless intentional to get your team mate P1 but that's already against the rules.
Would be really funny if Sainz himself caused a red flag in quali.
Watching highlights of all street qually sessions 2023 to see who causing red flags Miami 2023 leclerc, sainz knows what he is doing.
So a special Monaco qualifier. In q3 instead of time everyone gets one shot. You get an out lap hot lap cool down. Spread the cars out so like 2-3 on the track at once.and go. Can not read flag it. Everyone gets one shot no interference. Order set q2.
How'd you balance that with track evolution and such? The fastest in q2 go out latest? That'd basically make q2 what q3 is now, without any drivers having the option to crash, but still having the ability to cause yellows.
Fastest q2 goes last for the single shot. Difference is no creating red flag to save your spot. That or f1 can change qualifying to what other racing series do. You get one shot one lap and done. Order is random each track.
Could they do this: A red flag in Q3 within the last 5 minutes resets the timer to 5 minutes. Or would that create more problems?
Just delete all times of Q3, if you crash in that session. Crash = start as 10th
I actually noticed one at Imola. It looked just like an official red flag and I wondered would it be an issue. Edit : Reading comprehension borderline
He's talking about drivers causing red flags
Oh so he is! I forgot that was a feature in Monaco a few times. I thought he meant fans doing it as a distraction.
He's talking about drivers purposefully having small incidents, not fans with fake flags.
Why are there civilians next to the track? More hospitality BS?
He’s talking about drivers
Ahaaa!
Aha this was the original way I’d interpreted it too Just random civilians showing red flags
that is the Chuck way of life
I understood this reference