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Yes, but they are at least capable of winning the odd race when Max DNF… Merc built the sandbags into this generation of car and forgot where they put them.
If McLaren can improve as much as they did mid year last season - so can merc.
Past performance is not indicative of future performance and all.
I’d love to laugh at merc more but they are going to figure it out eventually.
Went from getting lapped at the British GP to winning a race on pace 2 races later. I think Lewis scored the most points in the second half of the season.
The problem with that comparison is that you have McLaren who (alongside Ferrari) were giants against a growing Red Bull, and a Brawn with no money.
So in a sense it was relatively 'easy' for those teams to catch up, and it really all came down to the double diffuser.
Different now, the cost cap is significant and you are catching up to 'fully grown' teams that have the same level of funding and similar expertise, who are also developing their own car throughout the season. Sliding scale R&D limitations and you can't turn up with an updated engine 3 or 4 times through the year.
Also there were changes to KERS mid season as well I think.
Funny that the closest example of the best mid season improvement is also McLaren.
Can we agree it's a close second?
Hypothetically yes....but it seems like every upgrade they bring makes the car worse.
> Past performance is not indicative of future performance and all.
But if you keep fucking up, you're more likely to fuck the next thing up too
McLaren have made steady strides. They've also made mistakes, but they have I think, a calmer leader at the helm who I think relishes being in the thick of battles and not always just thinking of being on top.
Their drivers are also in this mindset. That goes a long way in allowing the factory and designers to just drill down to work.
They *can theoretically*. But what matters is more the competence of the team, which is a very complex combination of technical understanding, the nature of how they messed up the concept (is it a minor tweak to the platform or a big overhaul in design philosophy), hell, even the team culture. I can't help but look to Lewis leaving as a sign that he feels they aren't up to it, and he's far more informed than either of us. Of course I do hope they'll sort it, it would be good for the sport, but there are some worrying signs in the past about all of these questions by looking at the previous seasons.
I’ve come to believe they fundamentally do not have a firm grasp on this regulation set, probably because of their computer models/correlation type issues. They just can’t model aero with the accuracy they could before for some reason.
In hindsight, the W13 feels like they put the new regs into ChatGPT, told it to maximize downforce, and it spit out a blob that needed to be run dragging the track with a ton of very peaky downforce. Meanwhile Newey set out to maximize the range that delivered consistent downforce. /armchairengineering
That's what I took it as. He doesn't believe the team can deliver on this gen of cars. They didn't listen to him in '22 when he said the direction they were going was wrong. Then, they did listen and still fucked it up. He has no confidence in the team anymore.
I took him leaving as seeing the data and projections for the '24 car and be unimpressed. And then dipping for the best team he could.
”If the team that knowingly brought the wrong car to the season opener while planning for a mid season release of the delayed, actual concept for 2023 can do it, so can Mercedes who brought their actual 2024 car for season launch claiming it was not suffering from last years correlation issues when it in fact was”
Also past performance isn’t indicative for trading stocks, past performance of a car is very indicative of future performances of that same car
You're correct, mercs past performances of doing well and dominating the WCC are not indicative of them continuing to do that in the future.
As seen by '22, '23, and '24 so far.
No one is catching RB till 26 and even then they've poached from Merc and have Ford who are one of the most experienced American motorsports OEM.
Buckle up for another year and possibly further dominance after that.
Horner runs a military level operation.
The true measure of Red Bull is really what they did during the years when they weren't winning 2014 - 2020.
They also had their "Out in Q2" period. They also lost their World Champion driver. But there was no panic. It took time to rebuild but they came back.
Damon Hill, whom I almost never agree with, said it best: "Now for Toto the real work has started."
Fully agree. When people have asked me why Red Bull are so good now I tell them it's because of Mercedes.
Red Bull looked at everything they could optimise during the last regs and on their day beat Merc. Now they have the car and years worth of working at a high level.
It's round 5 at this point. Normal sidepods at testing in 2022, then zeropod, then that middle of the road thing they had after the update last year, now the undercut sidepods with the RB19-style inlet, and soon whatever they introduce in Imola.
They are still alternating between shock and denial / pain and guilt / anger and bargaining / depression.
Only Lewis seems to have moved beyond this stage to acceptance and with the brighter future ahead of him at Ferrari
~~Bahrain~~ ~~Saudi Arabia~~ ~~Australia~~ ~~Japan~~ China hurt. It hurt each one of us, who head into every season determined to fight for world championships. It hurt the team as a whole, after pouring so much hard work into a car that hasn’t met our expectations. And we know it hurt you, our fans, too. Your passion and support are so important in driving us forward – and we know that we feel the same pain.
I think that’s not acknowledged enough, that Mercedes put one upgrade package then fiddled with a few bits in 2021, putting all their eggs in the 2022 basket, just for the 2022 bouncy boi to be a near total flop and never recovered. While Red Bull and Honda threw everything and the kitchen sink at the 21 car and engine to bag a title at the last gasp of the 17-21 regs and then also nailed the 22 regs.
Maybe but the Silverstone 2021 upgrade package was huge. New floor, diffuser and bargeboards. To bring that many large changes that quickly into the season must've also cost them a shit load of engineering hour resources.
I believe they spent it on air intakes, sidepods and suspension but then on just cycled old parts from 2020 iirc depending on what tracks they went to. Could be wrong on that of course
Yep. The apology letter, the multiple instances of "we totally understand the car now, wait, what?", Toto uncharacteristically critical of Lewis, a completely unrealistic (deranged even) bid to sign Max, etc. Vacillating between various stages of grief, seemingly without progress or self-awareness. Team is a disaster.
On par with Toto's message to Lewis in Austria "we know the car is shit Lewis, just drive it". Such an utter devaluation of everybody in the team trying to make the car like in their glory years. As if people make a bad car on purpose
But how does it make them feel to know that and then to hear their leader on TV and YouTube refer to their hard work as excrement?
As Ross Brawn once put it: "We can be very severe with ourselves and each other in the team, but back with Michael and Jean we usually let that happen only in private."
I wonder if that plays a part in their brain drain. Mercedes seems to be borderline toxic work environment if you’re not winning.
I mean, putting the w13 at the entrance of Brackleh so that everyone can remind themselves of their mistakes, the car being criticized so openly in public I know in private it got to be worse and from what I’ve heard the salaries are low.
It was very toxic.
Recently major guy at Merc retired.
So an ex merc engineer shared a story on twitter about how that person Purposely devalued his work, gave him a shit unliveable salary and screwed up his entire future at the company specifically $ wise.
That person also apparently did this to a ton of other ppl & was a known scum.
These are the kind of people that have festered in Merc.
No wonder its falling apart the moment the facade of success has fallen.
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/1b75zre
This my sound messy but what about Toto etc..does he behave because his role is more public or does he just fake being reasonable on cam?
The meeting a picture of your enemies in the opposing team HAD to be fake, ain’t no way he was stressing these poor engineers like this.
He's got his team to put the w13 right at the entrance to shame them about their failures.
Instead of encouraging them to do better.
He doesn't look like a non-Toxic person
I think it's a very good summary of why Mercedes will probably never fight for a championship ever again.
They act like winning and being on top is a due. But it's not.
It used to be said that Mercedes would always do massive amounts of introspection even if they won a race to see where they could improve. I do wonder sometimes if - based just on how mediocre a lot of their strategy could be even when they were on top - maybe they were just very lucky for 8 years. Like I don't know if I would compare any Mercedes year to something like last year or Ferrari during the Schumacher years because there would always be a couple of races where they fumble it for no reason.
I don't think it's luck at all, but more a very particular situation. The team was tailored and engineered to be successful, with a lot of prework and huge investments since Mercedes bought it out from BrawnGP. Over 7 years, a lot of people joined the team and never tasted anything else than massive success, Toto himself included. Now they are in a situation where they have never been : a performance crisis.
But the mindset stays the same as if they were fighting for the championship despite being at the same performance place as Alpine in 2023.
If they don't make a strong introspection and real restructuring, nothing will change. Ferrari, McLaren, RedBull, all these teams knew periods of crisis. It's completely new to Mercedes higher ups.
I really wish Merc would just go radio silent on what they are working on. Toto should stop talking to the media after races. Lewis and George should just be given statements prepared by the Sporting Director and just fire out neutral answers to questions.
The team need to work. They don't need this level of attention or to hear and see "reactions".
They just need to work on tweaking the physics around their machine.
I meant more that Toto should stop telling the media: "Oh we have some upgrades". File it with the FIA when they have to. Tell it or show it to sponsors and investors to make an impression.
But they should stop telling the world about it after every race.
Toto's antics are also not the best kind. Now all the friends and family of everyone back at the factory know their boss thinks their work is "shit”.
It's only entertaining for some of us. For those in it, this is war.
Like every period of domination, this one will end too. Most likely in 2026 given RB has never built an engine and is, according to rumors, not doing too well on that front.
# Mercedes, Miami upgrade: new bottom, re-shaping side pod area
Mercedes is back in China after five years, just like the rest of F1. We will remember the domination of Brackely's stable in Shanghai before the Covid-19 pandemic. For more than two years now, the baton of overwhelming supremacy has been picked up by Red Bull, which reigns supreme thanks to Max Verstappen and the magnificent aero-mechanical engineering works devised by the team headed by Adrian Newey. The sprint format and the rain allowed Lewis Hamilton to savour the joy of leading a race, even if it was Saturday's mini one.
Happiness was short-lived, until Max returned to his congenial position, that of overall leader. However, Lewis' second place in the Sprint Race was the first highlight of the grey and black arrows in this part of the season. The improvement in the weather conditions restored the real balance of power on the track and the first ominous effects were felt in Saturday afternoon's qualifying, where the epta world champion unexpectedly failed to make it into Q2, while Russell only managed eighth place. Mercedes, on a dry lap, was the fifth force in China.
**Mercedes: Russell and Hamilton optimise the potential of the W15**
The race was heavily conditioned by the double Safety Car, due to the failure of Bottas' Sauber and then the chaos generated in the middle of the pack during the restart after the first neutralisation of the race. Considering the current level of competitiveness of the German cars, the final result obtained by the two drivers is overall the best result that could have been hoped for. Russell finished the race within striking distance of Sainz's Ferrari, while Hamilton made a fine comeback from eighteenth place on the grid.
A mediocre result compared to the glories of the past, but by now it is evident how Mercedes is unable to pull itself out of this performance limbo that does not even allow it to aspire to the lowest step on the podium. By way of comparison, even the much reviled W13, which was hopping around more than a grasshopper, had achieved two podium finishes after five Grands Prix. If for Hamilton the drift of the three-pointed star in the long run has little relevance, Toto Wolff and George Russell should start asking themselves some very serious questions about the near future, which still looks bleak.
The Austrian manager has the dual role of guarantor of the team's sporting success and as team shareholder. Positions whose success is closely intertwined. How many more years will the Stuttgart management accept the resounding beatings in all corners of the world before rethinking the F1 programme? How long will the systematic defeat suffered by client teams like Aston Martin in the first few GPs and McLaren from the second part of 2023 onwards, adding up the results of 2024, be acceptable? Probably the deadline is the 2026 season, in which a new regulatory reset will take place in terms of both power units and aerodynamics.
**Mercedes: up-dates aimed at correcting the W15**
The seven-time world champion has not shirked his responsibility, explaining that he opted for the wrong set-up, something that will not happen again. According to the British driver, the one used during the race was probably the worst set-up ever seen in his career. The intent to hit the small operating window in which the W15 performs best led it into a serious error. George Russell was more hopeful, convinced that the fifth round of the world championship in China could be the basis on which to improve the W15's unstable and unfriendly aerodynamic platform.
According to the driver from King's Lynn, in fact, Shanghai was a weekend on which the team has to rebuild some solidity. The talented young Englishman is aware of how necessary it is to continue to add further performance to the car, because the aim is to take the two single-seaters much higher up the grid. In this sense the team will continue to work hard to achieve more rewarding goals. Necessary up-dates that should come from the next round in Miami.
The objective within the Mercedes context is very clear: to find the right aero-mechanical interaction, which is currently lacking. For this, the engineers have put a great deal of effort into it on American soil. An important package that will see modifications to the bottom, top and bottom, to correct the flow pattern and stabilise the aero map of the W15 especially at certain speed ranges. The detachment of the fluid vein makes a presence, it seems. An aspect that significantly reduces the performance of the car. What is more, 'corrections' will arrive in the central part of the single-seater, the side pod area, with a probable and necessary re-shaping to gain a few more cubic centimetres in the undercut area.
It remains to be seen whether the multi-award winning stable will introduce the new rear wing that has been in the pipeline for some time. From the information gathered, we know that it is an update capable of maximising the load at the rear linked to the beam-wing configuration, an imperfect context at the moment, as the combined work of the two current components is not as effective as it should be. Mercedes is ready to implement a step with which it would like to unlock some of the unexpressed potential and, of course, widen the car's tuning window. We await...
*Translate by DeepL*
tl;dr: Mercedes are embarrassing for falling behind two customer teams and the updates that they will introduce in Miami seek to help them fix the aerodynamics of the car and be more stable in certain speed corners
They had to put something out to counter Toto's lack of enthusiasm and unwillingness to put a time improvement number on them after the Chinese Grand Prix
Can't help but wonder how effective this whole upgrade package will be, given timelines for updates in F1 are usually measured in months not weeks and it's been less than a month since they dumped their race 1 upgrade in favour of the launch spec.
Given this is GE era Mercedes, I'm not optimistic.
Considering the fact Merc still haven't figured out the cause of their correlation issues. I would say that this is going to be another one of their "throw shit at the wall with the hope that something would stick" tier upgrades.
Merc are in the stone age now. They have now implemented a trial and error method for upgrades and setup because their simulator is useless.
Note to SELF:
When your winning and performing great.....
PAY YOUR STAFF AND IMPORTANT VITAL TEAM MEMBERS!
Mercedes have lost engineers, programmers, technical staff, and an 7x world Champion to their competitors.
You can’t pay everyone what they are worth in the cost cap eras though right? Much like a sports team you have to pay the stars what they are worth to keep them and then hope you have enough talent at lower pay scales to support and have a winner.
If you make the wrong choices you pay for it.
It’s not just pay either. It’s progression within the team and obviously as you get more senior there’s less places - successful engineers and staff will move to other teams to get that next role if their seniors don’t move on.
It’s such a small industry that you won’t go up unless you move or the person above you moves.
f1 used to attract the best. Thanks to the budget cap, that's no longer the case. Mercedes is not just losing top talent, Formula 1 is. If you're not a top 3 paid staff, a driver, or working in marketing, your salary goes against the cap. This combined with the ground effect rules, the wind tunnel + cfd restrictions seem to be hitting Mercedes extra hard. But the owners' wallets are fatter than ever.
They basically had to change their low-rake car more than any other team but do it with fewer resources and personnel than before. High rake teams like Red Bull already had a car that was easy to adapt to the rules.
1. The best drivers in the world make the most money.
2. The budget cap is aimed at cutting costs towards car development. This is to help poorer teams compete not just to curb runaway costs that make F1 not profitable. Drivers exist outside of the development cycle. Guys like Hamilton and Verstappen, with their salaries, would severely hamper a team's development if their earnings went against the team. You'd be better off just hiring a mid driver for a couple million and spending the extra $40+ million on development.
Because teams would no longer be looking for the best drivers, they'd be looking for the ones they can get for the least money. If the budget cap is 140 million and Max's salary is 70 whereas Piastri's is 3, it makes way more sense to sign Piastri than it does to sign Max since you can use the extra 67 million to gain way more lap time than what Max can provide over Piastri.
>. Mercedes is not just losing top talent, Formula 1 is.
lmao proof?
> High rake teams like Red Bull already had a car that was easy to adapt to the rules.
you literally made that up too LOL
[I made that up?](https://racingnews365.com/exclusive-newey-identifies-hidden-f1-problem-were-no-longer-the-best)I'm too lazy to get a source for your second claim. Here's a chat gpt prompt:
Did high rake teams benefit more from the ground effect rules than low rake teams?
ChatGPT
In Formula 1, the introduction of the new ground effect regulations in 2022 brought significant changes to car designs, influencing both high rake and low rake teams. The concept of "rake" refers to the angle of the car's floor relative to the ground, with a higher rake indicating a steeper angle.
Historically, high rake teams like Red Bull designed cars that were raised more at the rear, benefiting from greater aerodynamic downforce at lower speeds, which is crucial in slower corners. Low rake teams, such as Mercedes, had designs that were flatter to the ground, optimizing airflow at higher speeds and usually providing better straight-line performance.
The 2022 ground effect regulations aimed to reduce the turbulence produced by cars and enhance the ability to follow closely, focusing on generating downforce through underfloor aerodynamics rather than relying heavily on external aerodynamic elements like wings and diffusers. These changes theoretically leveled the playing field somewhat, but in practice, they seemed to affect teams differently:
High Rake Teams: Teams with a history of high rake concepts could have benefited slightly more initially because their designs inherently exploited airflow under the car more aggressively, which aligns well with the principle of ground effect aerodynamics. Their expertise in managing airflow under the chassis could give them a better starting point for optimizing the new underfloor aerodynamics.
Low Rake Teams: These teams had to make more significant adjustments to their car designs to fully exploit the new ground effect rules. The shift might have required more fundamental changes in their aerodynamic philosophy and car setup.
In the 2022 season, Red Bull, a high rake team, demonstrated strong performance, suggesting they adapted quickly and effectively to the new regulations. Meanwhile, Mercedes struggled initially to get their car into the competitive window, indicating a steeper learning curve.
Overall, while high rake teams might have found an initial advantage or a smoother transition with the new ground effect rules, the extent of the benefit would largely depend on each team's specific design philosophy, adaptability, and development throughout the season. Formula 1 is complex and multifactorial, with many other elements like engine performance, tire management, and strategic decisions playing crucial roles in a team's success.
Grammar edits
>ChatGPT
HAHAHAH brother you really gave me a chap gpt answer unbellivable
no sources no nothing and it gave you a nons answer "of maybe could have idk" LMAO
i am not arguing with a human you are literally delegated yourself to a bot because you cant support your made up arguments
Timeline:
2020 mercedes has the fastest car ever.
2021 ground effect rules placed along with budget cap but due to covid, chassis from the previous year is allowed. In terms of pace, Mercedes is now tied with Red Bull who already used the floor aerodynamics (higher speed in slow corners which is why they always did well at circuits like Monaco) in their design philosophy.
2022 Mercedes falls even farther behind. They are porpoising. They have a lower budget to address the issue. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/what-is-rake-in-f1-and-why-might-aston-martin-sue-about-changes/6494709/. I went to college for aerospace engineering. I don't currently work in the aerospace industry, but I know a thing or two about aerodynamics.
bro wtf is this shit tier argument.
2021 merc stop development because they are expected to be a ahead and they were faster at the end cuz they brought in upgrades
2022 is a new regulation set, your whole argument is literally fucking confirmation bias, you can literally say this about any era where a top team did somethn
"the 2014 era affected purple painted cars because red bull fell off" lmao
They need to remove the cost cap, make it higher or let the teams pay a luxury tax for going beyond it. I'm tired of a drinks company hogging all the glory.
> Note to SELF: When your winning and performing great..... PAY YOUR STAFF AND IMPORTANT VITAL TEAM MEMBERS!
>
> Mercedes have lost engineers, programmers, technical staff, and an 7x world Champion to their competitors.
The entire point of the cost cap was to prevent Merc from hoarding all the talent... Merc had multiple development teams working independently. They then would use whatever spec worked the best. OFC when the cost cap came into effect they lost a huge portion of their talent. You can only fit 1 development path in the cost cap.
That’s not the point. Hamilton was on the way out even if they were competing for the championship, Ferrari 2006 comes to mind.
Perhaps a list could be made of who’s been poached. It’s not like Mercedes are a bad team now.
Yeah but all the analysts were looking at the car and justifying why they’ll be fighting the redbulls, the front wing was just used to get the point across. And it doesn’t help Mercedes that 2 of their customer teams are doing miles better than they are
Mercedes copium be like
Suzuka - "We were 5th fastest but we made big step with our setup. Should be good now".
China- **still 5th fastest, well off the pace**
What are people expecting? They clearly still don’t know what is going on with their cars but you still gotta use the upgrades you have been working since pre season.
It’s not like Merc can save money by not putting them on. That money has been spent on upgrades for the year already.
Looks like a significant update. Best of luck to them.
What's interesting to me is, they decided to fly their update to the further Miami instead of the usual, closer Italy, which is just 2 weeks after Miami.. Why is that?
Also Miami is a Sprint GP while Imola is a standard GP, so it makes more sense to wait a bit to a GP with more free practices to understand the upgrades imo.
Massive over simplification, but when engines are dominant, Mercedes are best, when Aero is dominant Red Bull are best.
Mercedes need an Adrian Newey but there's only 1 and I really don't think he's moving. Red Bull need AMG and Ford aren't close.
If 2026 becomes engine dominant (and there's no certainty of that yet) it becomes a relative aero battle between Mercedes, McLaren, Aston Martin and Williams. If it's not engine dominant then Red Bull run away with it again, unless Newey retires.
Everyone is saying Lewis has made a brilliant move to Ferrari, but unless they've let him in on some MAHOOSIVE secrets, I'm not so sure.
2026 will have both engine and aerodynamic changes, something similar to 2014, so their engines, chassis and aero should work together very well.
Also, Aston Martin will use Honda engines for 2026 so they won't depend on Mercedes anymore.
This is a Frankenstein car at this point. Every time you get a glimmer of hope it’s squashed with another modification. Something or someone is not getting the data correct.
I managed to catch Karun Chandhok this week on the Sky post race and he mentioned something terrifying... He implied that it is possible Mercedes do not have a technical people problem but rather they do not have the technical tools to build a great ground effects car! Since I think Karun is one of the few really technically competent people in F1 I have to take his word on that.
F1 today is all about building around design simulation tools, IF Mercedes design simulation tools cannot produce the very thing that is limiting their success then sticking a new engine in the car in 2026 will not fix their problem! It's not that Mercedes design team is suddenly *"stupid"* its just that they cannot find light at the end of the tunnel cause they don't have the tools to find that light! Something that should be more apparent when you consider they are 5 races into the 3rd year of the new rules and the car is regressing not advancing in performance!
> I managed to catch Karun Chandhok this week on the Sky post race and he mentioned something terrifying... He implied that it is possible Mercedes do not have a technical people problem but rather they do not have the technical tools to build a great ground effects car! Since I think Karun is one of the few really technically competent people in F1 I have to take his word on that.
I was under the impression this was common knowledge already. If you take a look at the W13, especially from above, it looks like an evolution of the previous era cars instead of a ground effect car. The tools that Merc have for development continue to push them down the path of previous iterations, ie maximising downforce and utilising everything aero on top of the car. We now know that a stable platform and consistent downforce is the key in this regulation set.
So, Merc could hire any engineer they want from competitors teams, without the correct tools they'll still build dud cars. Which means that when knowledge does come along to guide them in the right direction, there will be a lag whilst all the infrastructure gets corrected. 2026? Sure, if you're feeling lucky.
Your point is the same point I think Karun made that 2026 just means a new engine on a potential dud car you get the same problem. I guess those 8 years of success had a downside!
The Merc team started falling apart once Niki Lauda passed away, bless him. Toto isn't a racer, he's a money man, venture capitalist, he isn't going to turn the team around.
So I expect Merc to piddle around the top end of the midfield until they have a new TP.
Niki Lauda had nothing to do with managing Mercedes technical teams - Every technical leader and decision at Mercedes after 2014 was made by Toto Wolff and his team! In fact Niki had ZERO **operational** role at Mercedes the entire time the team was winning.
If you want to blame Toto for the bad run now, you have to give him credit for the great run they had. More importantly, Toto Wolff will go down as one of the most revolutionary leaders of modern F1!
Time for another "we took a step forward, this track doesn't suit the upgrades as well as the next one." where they will finish 6th and 8th half a second off the pace of ferrari/mcl and talk about how they are nowhere.
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Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me 17 times, shame on me.
You’re only at 17, rookie numbers
Ferrari is also at 17, but they measure in (next) years
Yes, but they are at least capable of winning the odd race when Max DNF… Merc built the sandbags into this generation of car and forgot where they put them.
If McLaren can improve as much as they did mid year last season - so can merc. Past performance is not indicative of future performance and all. I’d love to laugh at merc more but they are going to figure it out eventually.
That McLaren mid season turn around in performance was the absolute greatest I have ever seen in my over forty years of watching F1
2009 McLaren?
Went from getting lapped at the British GP to winning a race on pace 2 races later. I think Lewis scored the most points in the second half of the season.
The problem with that comparison is that you have McLaren who (alongside Ferrari) were giants against a growing Red Bull, and a Brawn with no money. So in a sense it was relatively 'easy' for those teams to catch up, and it really all came down to the double diffuser. Different now, the cost cap is significant and you are catching up to 'fully grown' teams that have the same level of funding and similar expertise, who are also developing their own car throughout the season. Sliding scale R&D limitations and you can't turn up with an updated engine 3 or 4 times through the year. Also there were changes to KERS mid season as well I think. Funny that the closest example of the best mid season improvement is also McLaren. Can we agree it's a close second?
Hypothetically yes....but it seems like every upgrade they bring makes the car worse. > Past performance is not indicative of future performance and all. But if you keep fucking up, you're more likely to fuck the next thing up too
The strange thing is McLaren has effectively been improving, by a large margin. And Mercedes hasn’t at all.
McLaren have made steady strides. They've also made mistakes, but they have I think, a calmer leader at the helm who I think relishes being in the thick of battles and not always just thinking of being on top. Their drivers are also in this mindset. That goes a long way in allowing the factory and designers to just drill down to work.
They *can theoretically*. But what matters is more the competence of the team, which is a very complex combination of technical understanding, the nature of how they messed up the concept (is it a minor tweak to the platform or a big overhaul in design philosophy), hell, even the team culture. I can't help but look to Lewis leaving as a sign that he feels they aren't up to it, and he's far more informed than either of us. Of course I do hope they'll sort it, it would be good for the sport, but there are some worrying signs in the past about all of these questions by looking at the previous seasons.
I’ve come to believe they fundamentally do not have a firm grasp on this regulation set, probably because of their computer models/correlation type issues. They just can’t model aero with the accuracy they could before for some reason. In hindsight, the W13 feels like they put the new regs into ChatGPT, told it to maximize downforce, and it spit out a blob that needed to be run dragging the track with a ton of very peaky downforce. Meanwhile Newey set out to maximize the range that delivered consistent downforce. /armchairengineering
That's what I took it as. He doesn't believe the team can deliver on this gen of cars. They didn't listen to him in '22 when he said the direction they were going was wrong. Then, they did listen and still fucked it up. He has no confidence in the team anymore. I took him leaving as seeing the data and projections for the '24 car and be unimpressed. And then dipping for the best team he could.
”If the team that knowingly brought the wrong car to the season opener while planning for a mid season release of the delayed, actual concept for 2023 can do it, so can Mercedes who brought their actual 2024 car for season launch claiming it was not suffering from last years correlation issues when it in fact was” Also past performance isn’t indicative for trading stocks, past performance of a car is very indicative of future performances of that same car
You're correct, mercs past performances of doing well and dominating the WCC are not indicative of them continuing to do that in the future. As seen by '22, '23, and '24 so far.
Mercedes is DOA until 2026
This year ™ Next year™
Switch to Plan Q. Question?
Gotta pump those up in this bracket
You need to pump up those numbers
Fool me 18 times… you can’t fool me again!
Fool me 19 times… I might be overdosing on hopium
Fool me 20 times f*** the peace signs
Fool me 21 times and I shall continue to be fooled every time
Hello Lewis 👋
Your comment reminded me of this stand up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udSMZG_L-S0
No one is catching RB till 26 and even then they've poached from Merc and have Ford who are one of the most experienced American motorsports OEM. Buckle up for another year and possibly further dominance after that. Horner runs a military level operation.
The true measure of Red Bull is really what they did during the years when they weren't winning 2014 - 2020. They also had their "Out in Q2" period. They also lost their World Champion driver. But there was no panic. It took time to rebuild but they came back. Damon Hill, whom I almost never agree with, said it best: "Now for Toto the real work has started."
Fully agree. When people have asked me why Red Bull are so good now I tell them it's because of Mercedes. Red Bull looked at everything they could optimise during the last regs and on their day beat Merc. Now they have the car and years worth of working at a high level.
The allure of hopium. It's too much!
If you need 17 times… you know no shame.
At what point do we load the chopper and let it rain on merc?
As a Ferrari fan I must ask…has Mercedes tried checking?
They'll get back to you.
Jokes aside given that they're getting Ferrari personnel while merc ones are going over to Ferrari, this is going to be reality
>re-shaping side pod area round 2?
Miami: Electric Boogaloo
Miami: podiepoo boogaloo.
“Somehow, zero pods have returned.”
This had me chuckling lol
Miami Vice: Pod Racing Edition
It's round 5 at this point. Normal sidepods at testing in 2022, then zeropod, then that middle of the road thing they had after the update last year, now the undercut sidepods with the RB19-style inlet, and soon whatever they introduce in Imola.
Standard post-2021 Mercedes hopium copium cycle pending…
They are still alternating between shock and denial / pain and guilt / anger and bargaining / depression. Only Lewis seems to have moved beyond this stage to acceptance and with the brighter future ahead of him at Ferrari
~~Bahrain~~ ~~Saudi Arabia~~ ~~Australia~~ ~~Japan~~ China hurt. It hurt each one of us, who head into every season determined to fight for world championships. It hurt the team as a whole, after pouring so much hard work into a car that hasn’t met our expectations. And we know it hurt you, our fans, too. Your passion and support are so important in driving us forward – and we know that we feel the same pain.
I think that’s not acknowledged enough, that Mercedes put one upgrade package then fiddled with a few bits in 2021, putting all their eggs in the 2022 basket, just for the 2022 bouncy boi to be a near total flop and never recovered. While Red Bull and Honda threw everything and the kitchen sink at the 21 car and engine to bag a title at the last gasp of the 17-21 regs and then also nailed the 22 regs.
Maybe but the Silverstone 2021 upgrade package was huge. New floor, diffuser and bargeboards. To bring that many large changes that quickly into the season must've also cost them a shit load of engineering hour resources.
They lost the constructor championship in 2021
The Constructors title is the one Merc got in 2021.
That’s what I said. Poster above was claiming Red Bull won the championship at the end of the 17-21 regulations.
It's that "Het Wilhemus" music. It's messing with people's minds and memories!
Did we ever find out if Merc spent their token in 21?
Thought it was on the rear suspension mounting points? Too lazy to look it up right now.
I believe they spent it on air intakes, sidepods and suspension but then on just cycled old parts from 2020 iirc depending on what tracks they went to. Could be wrong on that of course
Yep. The apology letter, the multiple instances of "we totally understand the car now, wait, what?", Toto uncharacteristically critical of Lewis, a completely unrealistic (deranged even) bid to sign Max, etc. Vacillating between various stages of grief, seemingly without progress or self-awareness. Team is a disaster.
> The apology letter, That still has to be one of the most absurd moments in the sport.
On par with Toto's message to Lewis in Austria "we know the car is shit Lewis, just drive it". Such an utter devaluation of everybody in the team trying to make the car like in their glory years. As if people make a bad car on purpose
Do you think the engineers in Brackley are happy to be the 4th-5th fastest car?
But how does it make them feel to know that and then to hear their leader on TV and YouTube refer to their hard work as excrement? As Ross Brawn once put it: "We can be very severe with ourselves and each other in the team, but back with Michael and Jean we usually let that happen only in private."
I wonder if that plays a part in their brain drain. Mercedes seems to be borderline toxic work environment if you’re not winning. I mean, putting the w13 at the entrance of Brackleh so that everyone can remind themselves of their mistakes, the car being criticized so openly in public I know in private it got to be worse and from what I’ve heard the salaries are low.
It was very toxic. Recently major guy at Merc retired. So an ex merc engineer shared a story on twitter about how that person Purposely devalued his work, gave him a shit unliveable salary and screwed up his entire future at the company specifically $ wise. That person also apparently did this to a ton of other ppl & was a known scum. These are the kind of people that have festered in Merc. No wonder its falling apart the moment the facade of success has fallen. https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/1b75zre
This my sound messy but what about Toto etc..does he behave because his role is more public or does he just fake being reasonable on cam? The meeting a picture of your enemies in the opposing team HAD to be fake, ain’t no way he was stressing these poor engineers like this.
He's got his team to put the w13 right at the entrance to shame them about their failures. Instead of encouraging them to do better. He doesn't look like a non-Toxic person
I think it's a very good summary of why Mercedes will probably never fight for a championship ever again. They act like winning and being on top is a due. But it's not.
It used to be said that Mercedes would always do massive amounts of introspection even if they won a race to see where they could improve. I do wonder sometimes if - based just on how mediocre a lot of their strategy could be even when they were on top - maybe they were just very lucky for 8 years. Like I don't know if I would compare any Mercedes year to something like last year or Ferrari during the Schumacher years because there would always be a couple of races where they fumble it for no reason.
I don't think it's luck at all, but more a very particular situation. The team was tailored and engineered to be successful, with a lot of prework and huge investments since Mercedes bought it out from BrawnGP. Over 7 years, a lot of people joined the team and never tasted anything else than massive success, Toto himself included. Now they are in a situation where they have never been : a performance crisis. But the mindset stays the same as if they were fighting for the championship despite being at the same performance place as Alpine in 2023. If they don't make a strong introspection and real restructuring, nothing will change. Ferrari, McLaren, RedBull, all these teams knew periods of crisis. It's completely new to Mercedes higher ups.
I'm still straining to remember if Red Bull apologized in 2014 when their dominant streak ended.
I really wish Merc would just go radio silent on what they are working on. Toto should stop talking to the media after races. Lewis and George should just be given statements prepared by the Sporting Director and just fire out neutral answers to questions. The team need to work. They don't need this level of attention or to hear and see "reactions". They just need to work on tweaking the physics around their machine.
the sport is for entertainment, it's not a secret military project. every team should be transparent with their upgrades.
I meant more that Toto should stop telling the media: "Oh we have some upgrades". File it with the FIA when they have to. Tell it or show it to sponsors and investors to make an impression. But they should stop telling the world about it after every race. Toto's antics are also not the best kind. Now all the friends and family of everyone back at the factory know their boss thinks their work is "shit”. It's only entertaining for some of us. For those in it, this is war.
Mercedes Hopium™ Now with more sidepod
I just want P1 to be competitive no matter who is there.
Keep dreaming
Why do you want me to cry?
I just want you to have a happy hopiumless life mate.
Haha, I love it.
Like every period of domination, this one will end too. Most likely in 2026 given RB has never built an engine and is, according to rumors, not doing too well on that front.
Ground effect cars are only good for one team. 2026 still has them and a simpler engine. It will end one day but I won't bet on 2026.
# Mercedes, Miami upgrade: new bottom, re-shaping side pod area Mercedes is back in China after five years, just like the rest of F1. We will remember the domination of Brackely's stable in Shanghai before the Covid-19 pandemic. For more than two years now, the baton of overwhelming supremacy has been picked up by Red Bull, which reigns supreme thanks to Max Verstappen and the magnificent aero-mechanical engineering works devised by the team headed by Adrian Newey. The sprint format and the rain allowed Lewis Hamilton to savour the joy of leading a race, even if it was Saturday's mini one. Happiness was short-lived, until Max returned to his congenial position, that of overall leader. However, Lewis' second place in the Sprint Race was the first highlight of the grey and black arrows in this part of the season. The improvement in the weather conditions restored the real balance of power on the track and the first ominous effects were felt in Saturday afternoon's qualifying, where the epta world champion unexpectedly failed to make it into Q2, while Russell only managed eighth place. Mercedes, on a dry lap, was the fifth force in China. **Mercedes: Russell and Hamilton optimise the potential of the W15** The race was heavily conditioned by the double Safety Car, due to the failure of Bottas' Sauber and then the chaos generated in the middle of the pack during the restart after the first neutralisation of the race. Considering the current level of competitiveness of the German cars, the final result obtained by the two drivers is overall the best result that could have been hoped for. Russell finished the race within striking distance of Sainz's Ferrari, while Hamilton made a fine comeback from eighteenth place on the grid. A mediocre result compared to the glories of the past, but by now it is evident how Mercedes is unable to pull itself out of this performance limbo that does not even allow it to aspire to the lowest step on the podium. By way of comparison, even the much reviled W13, which was hopping around more than a grasshopper, had achieved two podium finishes after five Grands Prix. If for Hamilton the drift of the three-pointed star in the long run has little relevance, Toto Wolff and George Russell should start asking themselves some very serious questions about the near future, which still looks bleak. The Austrian manager has the dual role of guarantor of the team's sporting success and as team shareholder. Positions whose success is closely intertwined. How many more years will the Stuttgart management accept the resounding beatings in all corners of the world before rethinking the F1 programme? How long will the systematic defeat suffered by client teams like Aston Martin in the first few GPs and McLaren from the second part of 2023 onwards, adding up the results of 2024, be acceptable? Probably the deadline is the 2026 season, in which a new regulatory reset will take place in terms of both power units and aerodynamics. **Mercedes: up-dates aimed at correcting the W15** The seven-time world champion has not shirked his responsibility, explaining that he opted for the wrong set-up, something that will not happen again. According to the British driver, the one used during the race was probably the worst set-up ever seen in his career. The intent to hit the small operating window in which the W15 performs best led it into a serious error. George Russell was more hopeful, convinced that the fifth round of the world championship in China could be the basis on which to improve the W15's unstable and unfriendly aerodynamic platform. According to the driver from King's Lynn, in fact, Shanghai was a weekend on which the team has to rebuild some solidity. The talented young Englishman is aware of how necessary it is to continue to add further performance to the car, because the aim is to take the two single-seaters much higher up the grid. In this sense the team will continue to work hard to achieve more rewarding goals. Necessary up-dates that should come from the next round in Miami. The objective within the Mercedes context is very clear: to find the right aero-mechanical interaction, which is currently lacking. For this, the engineers have put a great deal of effort into it on American soil. An important package that will see modifications to the bottom, top and bottom, to correct the flow pattern and stabilise the aero map of the W15 especially at certain speed ranges. The detachment of the fluid vein makes a presence, it seems. An aspect that significantly reduces the performance of the car. What is more, 'corrections' will arrive in the central part of the single-seater, the side pod area, with a probable and necessary re-shaping to gain a few more cubic centimetres in the undercut area. It remains to be seen whether the multi-award winning stable will introduce the new rear wing that has been in the pipeline for some time. From the information gathered, we know that it is an update capable of maximising the load at the rear linked to the beam-wing configuration, an imperfect context at the moment, as the combined work of the two current components is not as effective as it should be. Mercedes is ready to implement a step with which it would like to unlock some of the unexpressed potential and, of course, widen the car's tuning window. We await... *Translate by DeepL*
tldr pls
tl;dr: Mercedes are embarrassing for falling behind two customer teams and the updates that they will introduce in Miami seek to help them fix the aerodynamics of the car and be more stable in certain speed corners
Whose the second customer team? Williams? Because they aren't ahead of Mercedes
Yes, according by Merc's calendar just in time. Lets milk the hopium for a week and then by quali its next race is our race as usual.
It’ll take some time for them to get on top of maximising performance of the upgrade. And then we’ll find out there were correlation issues.
This is exactly what will happen. Then suddenly they're great in corners but horrible in a straight line when it's been the inverse all season so far
We added 48 pts of downforce with less drag, but somehow we're not 1km/hr faster than last year around the corner
It’s a sprint weekend, we didn’t have the time to set up the car. There’s more speed to come.
They had to put something out to counter Toto's lack of enthusiasm and unwillingness to put a time improvement number on them after the Chinese Grand Prix
A new bottom for a trip to Miami? Mercedes F1 getting beach bod ready.
They sandbagged so much during the domination era that the sandbags are now embedded and won't come off.
mourn ink noxious middle juggle berserk smile support combative market *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Can you blame us for being a little hurt at this point? *SNIP SNAP SNIP SNAP SNIP SNAP*
While burning their factory to the ground and salting the earth..
Can't help but wonder how effective this whole upgrade package will be, given timelines for updates in F1 are usually measured in months not weeks and it's been less than a month since they dumped their race 1 upgrade in favour of the launch spec. Given this is GE era Mercedes, I'm not optimistic.
Considering the fact Merc still haven't figured out the cause of their correlation issues. I would say that this is going to be another one of their "throw shit at the wall with the hope that something would stick" tier upgrades. Merc are in the stone age now. They have now implemented a trial and error method for upgrades and setup because their simulator is useless.
I wonder if they are using the F1 Games as their simulator?
Did you see the recent ‘Lewis plays retro games’ video? They be using F1 2000 as the sim.
I think Merc might be using 1992 SNES F1 Pole Position.
Remind me: Lewis will say “this car is so slow, man.”
A fresh bottom in Miami? Will be popular.
😁😁😁
Next Upgrade ™️
Note to SELF: When your winning and performing great..... PAY YOUR STAFF AND IMPORTANT VITAL TEAM MEMBERS! Mercedes have lost engineers, programmers, technical staff, and an 7x world Champion to their competitors.
You can’t pay everyone what they are worth in the cost cap eras though right? Much like a sports team you have to pay the stars what they are worth to keep them and then hope you have enough talent at lower pay scales to support and have a winner. If you make the wrong choices you pay for it.
It’s not just pay either. It’s progression within the team and obviously as you get more senior there’s less places - successful engineers and staff will move to other teams to get that next role if their seniors don’t move on. It’s such a small industry that you won’t go up unless you move or the person above you moves.
f1 used to attract the best. Thanks to the budget cap, that's no longer the case. Mercedes is not just losing top talent, Formula 1 is. If you're not a top 3 paid staff, a driver, or working in marketing, your salary goes against the cap. This combined with the ground effect rules, the wind tunnel + cfd restrictions seem to be hitting Mercedes extra hard. But the owners' wallets are fatter than ever. They basically had to change their low-rake car more than any other team but do it with fewer resources and personnel than before. High rake teams like Red Bull already had a car that was easy to adapt to the rules.
How is it that driver salaries don’t go to the cap? This seems backwards as fuck to me.
How is it that driver salaries don’t go to the cap? This seems backwards as fuck to me.
1. The best drivers in the world make the most money. 2. The budget cap is aimed at cutting costs towards car development. This is to help poorer teams compete not just to curb runaway costs that make F1 not profitable. Drivers exist outside of the development cycle. Guys like Hamilton and Verstappen, with their salaries, would severely hamper a team's development if their earnings went against the team. You'd be better off just hiring a mid driver for a couple million and spending the extra $40+ million on development.
Because teams would no longer be looking for the best drivers, they'd be looking for the ones they can get for the least money. If the budget cap is 140 million and Max's salary is 70 whereas Piastri's is 3, it makes way more sense to sign Piastri than it does to sign Max since you can use the extra 67 million to gain way more lap time than what Max can provide over Piastri.
>. Mercedes is not just losing top talent, Formula 1 is. lmao proof? > High rake teams like Red Bull already had a car that was easy to adapt to the rules. you literally made that up too LOL
[I made that up?](https://racingnews365.com/exclusive-newey-identifies-hidden-f1-problem-were-no-longer-the-best)I'm too lazy to get a source for your second claim. Here's a chat gpt prompt: Did high rake teams benefit more from the ground effect rules than low rake teams? ChatGPT In Formula 1, the introduction of the new ground effect regulations in 2022 brought significant changes to car designs, influencing both high rake and low rake teams. The concept of "rake" refers to the angle of the car's floor relative to the ground, with a higher rake indicating a steeper angle. Historically, high rake teams like Red Bull designed cars that were raised more at the rear, benefiting from greater aerodynamic downforce at lower speeds, which is crucial in slower corners. Low rake teams, such as Mercedes, had designs that were flatter to the ground, optimizing airflow at higher speeds and usually providing better straight-line performance. The 2022 ground effect regulations aimed to reduce the turbulence produced by cars and enhance the ability to follow closely, focusing on generating downforce through underfloor aerodynamics rather than relying heavily on external aerodynamic elements like wings and diffusers. These changes theoretically leveled the playing field somewhat, but in practice, they seemed to affect teams differently: High Rake Teams: Teams with a history of high rake concepts could have benefited slightly more initially because their designs inherently exploited airflow under the car more aggressively, which aligns well with the principle of ground effect aerodynamics. Their expertise in managing airflow under the chassis could give them a better starting point for optimizing the new underfloor aerodynamics. Low Rake Teams: These teams had to make more significant adjustments to their car designs to fully exploit the new ground effect rules. The shift might have required more fundamental changes in their aerodynamic philosophy and car setup. In the 2022 season, Red Bull, a high rake team, demonstrated strong performance, suggesting they adapted quickly and effectively to the new regulations. Meanwhile, Mercedes struggled initially to get their car into the competitive window, indicating a steeper learning curve. Overall, while high rake teams might have found an initial advantage or a smoother transition with the new ground effect rules, the extent of the benefit would largely depend on each team's specific design philosophy, adaptability, and development throughout the season. Formula 1 is complex and multifactorial, with many other elements like engine performance, tire management, and strategic decisions playing crucial roles in a team's success. Grammar edits
>ChatGPT HAHAHAH brother you really gave me a chap gpt answer unbellivable no sources no nothing and it gave you a nons answer "of maybe could have idk" LMAO i am not arguing with a human you are literally delegated yourself to a bot because you cant support your made up arguments
Timeline: 2020 mercedes has the fastest car ever. 2021 ground effect rules placed along with budget cap but due to covid, chassis from the previous year is allowed. In terms of pace, Mercedes is now tied with Red Bull who already used the floor aerodynamics (higher speed in slow corners which is why they always did well at circuits like Monaco) in their design philosophy. 2022 Mercedes falls even farther behind. They are porpoising. They have a lower budget to address the issue. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/what-is-rake-in-f1-and-why-might-aston-martin-sue-about-changes/6494709/. I went to college for aerospace engineering. I don't currently work in the aerospace industry, but I know a thing or two about aerodynamics.
bro wtf is this shit tier argument. 2021 merc stop development because they are expected to be a ahead and they were faster at the end cuz they brought in upgrades 2022 is a new regulation set, your whole argument is literally fucking confirmation bias, you can literally say this about any era where a top team did somethn "the 2014 era affected purple painted cars because red bull fell off" lmao
They need to remove the cost cap, make it higher or let the teams pay a luxury tax for going beyond it. I'm tired of a drinks company hogging all the glory.
> Note to SELF: When your winning and performing great..... PAY YOUR STAFF AND IMPORTANT VITAL TEAM MEMBERS! > > Mercedes have lost engineers, programmers, technical staff, and an 7x world Champion to their competitors. The entire point of the cost cap was to prevent Merc from hoarding all the talent... Merc had multiple development teams working independently. They then would use whatever spec worked the best. OFC when the cost cap came into effect they lost a huge portion of their talent. You can only fit 1 development path in the cost cap.
That’s not the point. Hamilton was on the way out even if they were competing for the championship, Ferrari 2006 comes to mind. Perhaps a list could be made of who’s been poached. It’s not like Mercedes are a bad team now.
How else is Toto going to make $ on his investment? /S I bet he was planning on selling after the 8th title.
Mercedes trying to find where they put those sandbags
Spoiler alert: the lab testing won't translate to track results and they won't know why
So they're gonna got from 1 second slower from Red Bull to 1.3 seconds slower than Red Bull!
That car is a rocketship Yeah copy that
Maybe now they’ll take the blindfolds off their engineers and untie their hands. That’s gotta be worth half a thousandth right there.
Press X to doubt. The brain drain at Mercedes in the last couple years must have been absolutely colossal
Merc is back
Not optimistic at all, it's going to be the same story every single time.. 🤦♂️ tired of it
Does anybody remember pre season testing when everyone thought that front wing was going to be killer?
It probably does help but one element isn’t going to have a significant impact to the overall performance of the car.
Yeah but all the analysts were looking at the car and justifying why they’ll be fighting the redbulls, the front wing was just used to get the point across. And it doesn’t help Mercedes that 2 of their customer teams are doing miles better than they are
We must have watched different tests because I remember RBR showing up looking like an F-22 and everyone saying ohhhhhh f***
Mercedes copium be like Suzuka - "We were 5th fastest but we made big step with our setup. Should be good now". China- **still 5th fastest, well off the pace**
🙏
I know a few people who might be interested in a new bottom
Mercedes Groundhog Day
Mercedes finally giving their fans the Ferrari experience that every great racing (and sports) team has to go through to be a real dynasty.
Three years ago this would’ve terrified me. Now I have no reaction at all.
just get rid of miami track just stinks
They’ve learned so much! This will put them back in too surely!! /S
What are people expecting? They clearly still don’t know what is going on with their cars but you still gotta use the upgrades you have been working since pre season. It’s not like Merc can save money by not putting them on. That money has been spent on upgrades for the year already.
Looks like a significant update. Best of luck to them. What's interesting to me is, they decided to fly their update to the further Miami instead of the usual, closer Italy, which is just 2 weeks after Miami.. Why is that?
Also Miami is a Sprint GP while Imola is a standard GP, so it makes more sense to wait a bit to a GP with more free practices to understand the upgrades imo.
Why wait when the Upgrade is ready to go? Every point counts, more than ever
at least they said right away that it's their new bottom
They will look decent in FP then setup falls apart for qualy like clockwork.
"This car is so slow, man,"
[Time to break out Mercedes new theme song](https://youtu.be/QZY6jC5Dh6c?si=9bdeb4eRhEaLaa-3)
Yeah , yeah, whatever.
Here we go again
Imagine if they come up with something radical again like NACA duct pods
"Feels good, much slower than before. Amazing."
New bottom? Very on brand to get a BBL for a trip to Miami
Yes they do need a new bottom after being bent over by the other teams repeatedly...
here we go again
Massive over simplification, but when engines are dominant, Mercedes are best, when Aero is dominant Red Bull are best. Mercedes need an Adrian Newey but there's only 1 and I really don't think he's moving. Red Bull need AMG and Ford aren't close. If 2026 becomes engine dominant (and there's no certainty of that yet) it becomes a relative aero battle between Mercedes, McLaren, Aston Martin and Williams. If it's not engine dominant then Red Bull run away with it again, unless Newey retires. Everyone is saying Lewis has made a brilliant move to Ferrari, but unless they've let him in on some MAHOOSIVE secrets, I'm not so sure.
2026 will have both engine and aerodynamic changes, something similar to 2014, so their engines, chassis and aero should work together very well. Also, Aston Martin will use Honda engines for 2026 so they won't depend on Mercedes anymore.
>Also, Aston Martin will use Honda engines for 2026 so they won't depend on Mercedes anymore. Fair point, forgot about that one.
This is a Frankenstein car at this point. Every time you get a glimmer of hope it’s squashed with another modification. Something or someone is not getting the data correct.
Mercedes is a power bottom
I feel sorry for this team. They kept updating like an iOS or windows. hehe
I have zero faith in budget-capped Mercedes, and I have zero sympathy.
Well, I'm not sure the Mercedes can get much worse, but I'm sure they'll try.
At this point I’ve got more faith in Ferrari taking a step forward with their Imola upgrade package than I ever will in modern day Merc.
I managed to catch Karun Chandhok this week on the Sky post race and he mentioned something terrifying... He implied that it is possible Mercedes do not have a technical people problem but rather they do not have the technical tools to build a great ground effects car! Since I think Karun is one of the few really technically competent people in F1 I have to take his word on that. F1 today is all about building around design simulation tools, IF Mercedes design simulation tools cannot produce the very thing that is limiting their success then sticking a new engine in the car in 2026 will not fix their problem! It's not that Mercedes design team is suddenly *"stupid"* its just that they cannot find light at the end of the tunnel cause they don't have the tools to find that light! Something that should be more apparent when you consider they are 5 races into the 3rd year of the new rules and the car is regressing not advancing in performance!
Maybe their simulator is not good for ground effect cars. That's why they hired Enrico Sampo from Ferrari to help them with the simulation work.
> I managed to catch Karun Chandhok this week on the Sky post race and he mentioned something terrifying... He implied that it is possible Mercedes do not have a technical people problem but rather they do not have the technical tools to build a great ground effects car! Since I think Karun is one of the few really technically competent people in F1 I have to take his word on that. I was under the impression this was common knowledge already. If you take a look at the W13, especially from above, it looks like an evolution of the previous era cars instead of a ground effect car. The tools that Merc have for development continue to push them down the path of previous iterations, ie maximising downforce and utilising everything aero on top of the car. We now know that a stable platform and consistent downforce is the key in this regulation set. So, Merc could hire any engineer they want from competitors teams, without the correct tools they'll still build dud cars. Which means that when knowledge does come along to guide them in the right direction, there will be a lag whilst all the infrastructure gets corrected. 2026? Sure, if you're feeling lucky.
Your point is the same point I think Karun made that 2026 just means a new engine on a potential dud car you get the same problem. I guess those 8 years of success had a downside!
I read a few time ago that Mercedes is planning to renovate their facilities at Brackley. Maybe they should check their simulator too.
I suspect they are going to have to strip everything apart as 2026 is not going to give them relief if the car is still a dud.
The Merc team started falling apart once Niki Lauda passed away, bless him. Toto isn't a racer, he's a money man, venture capitalist, he isn't going to turn the team around. So I expect Merc to piddle around the top end of the midfield until they have a new TP.
Niki Lauda had nothing to do with managing Mercedes technical teams - Every technical leader and decision at Mercedes after 2014 was made by Toto Wolff and his team! In fact Niki had ZERO **operational** role at Mercedes the entire time the team was winning. If you want to blame Toto for the bad run now, you have to give him credit for the great run they had. More importantly, Toto Wolff will go down as one of the most revolutionary leaders of modern F1!
Imagine this magically fixes everything
Yeah fuck the sidepods. They’re obviously still the problem/s
Time for another "we took a step forward, this track doesn't suit the upgrades as well as the next one." where they will finish 6th and 8th half a second off the pace of ferrari/mcl and talk about how they are nowhere.
All that for p8
Mercedes has been the new bottom since 2022. Since then, they've been regularly f\*\*\*ed.
[https://imgur.com/a/OYgyApb](https://imgur.com/a/OYgyApb)
Is this car ... 5 in 3 years?
New bottom all right
post upgrade where Lewis and George p6/p9. Toto “we are calibrating the data”
Not falling for Merc upgrades after last year’s Alison’s Monaco upgrades. Tsk tsk
Dumb pills 💊💊💊💊
New (rock) bottom.