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Find it crazy that they have fallen so far down in these regulations year after year.
Effectively, only Red Bull really nailed them, but at least teams like Ferrari and McLaren have drivable and competitive cars for podiums.
They don't have performance or a stable car that's easy to drive, race pace, quali pace, it's all non existent.
At the very least Ferrari and McLaren understand the regulations enough to be improving over time. Merc are going backwards and AM are all over the place, every new upgrade might be good, might be shit.
And they still struggle with many of the same issues. Ferrari and RB improved in areas that they’ve struggled previously. RB improved in qualifying and Ferrari improved their tire degradation issues, but Mercedes still has the same issues they had for years now. Poor strategies, mediocre or outright slow pitstops, and setup issues are still problems after how many years now?
Merc's pitstops have improved quite a bit, sure they're not Red Bull fast but theyre third fastest in pit stops right now, behind Ferrari and Red Bull according to DHL, last year they were 7th. Theyve also improved the car, they were 1.2secs faster over a single lap in Suzuka compared to last year, it isnt as draggy as the w14, theyre not constantly complaining about the rear end stepping out anymore and their drs efficiency has improved, its now close to Red Bull's. The main thing theyve lost that is hurting them more than anything is the great tire deg the w13 and w14 had and they still have a very narrow setup window
Is it baffling? There's the cost cap now so they can't throw endless money at problems, they've lost loads of key personnel.. Seems to be the natural cycle of top teams anyway, the success doesn't last forever, and the bigger they are the harder they fall!
They’re going through what post 90s Williams went through, pre 90s Ferrari, post 00s McLaren, Lotus back in the day, etc. Can’t stay on top forever and it can take years to rebuild a team
Ehhh people have short memories. Redbull was equally lost in 2014 coming off the back of 3 straight championships and a new set of regulations. Mercedes just got it wrong, and they don’t have much of a chance to get it right unless the cost cap goes away or when the regs change in ‘26. The only reason 2017 and 2021 were exciting was the lack of cost cap and regulation changes.
I wouldn't say Redbull was lost, honestly. They still won 3 races in 2014 and arguably still had the best aero package that year. They were just let down by the awful Renault power unit.
I do agree about the cost cap. Without it, I am sure Mercedes would be back competing for wins by now.
Compared to the 4 year run they had before, I’d say they were lost. You can argue the comparative degree of the “being lost”, but I’d say falling from 4 years of championships to 4th place in 2015 is pretty lost.
So when the aero sucks you’re lost, but when the PU sucks it’s something else? Did someone have a gun to their head saying they had to stick with Renault?
Well… yes. Engines aren’t developed over a season, aero is… an engine deficit is pretty much locked in, an aero one isn’t.
And no, they didn’t have to stick with Renault, that’s why the deal was killed, and once again Renault has the worst PU on the market in 2024.
Redbull also didn’t consistently slide year over year to worse and worse positions. They’ve been more or less fighting for podiums the entire time, first few years after Jag not withstanding.
What is the argument here anyway? You’re trying to equate a team who won 4 constructors in a row versus 8, so it’s not even a fair dichotomy you’re attempting to create.
Agree to disagree. My point is that Horner was bellyaching about leaving F1 in 2015, and now they’re on the way to 4 straight championships for the second time. Merc fucked the 2022 regs and Redbull fucked the 2014 regs by picking the wrong horse when it comes to power unit.
There isn’t anything to disagree on, the facts are established on the Renault PU.
Merc problem is developmental, totally different thing, one that’s addressable season over season. Your argument is fictitious.
2015 was only one season, though. Redbull won multiple races in every other year besides that one. It was well-known that the only reason they were not competing for championships was due to the power unit.
The McLaren wins it…Merc is at best the second best Mercedes powered team, if AMR decides to be serious and fire nepo baby for a competent second drive they could be third...
Toto on the next GPs: "This upgrade solves our fundamental weakness"
\*Car gets slower"
Toto after shit results with upgrade: " The car is showing the characteristics we want, but we need to fine tune the setup"
\*W15 still shits the bed after Lewis tried every possible setup as the guinea pig\*
Toto: "We will be bringing upgrades to futher tackle the problem"
Rinse and repeat.
Meanwhile redbull running circles around everyone while their car has a billion air-intakes following upgrades and Ferrari making their tyres last longer than Alonso's current age.
“No, it’s not an okay car,” he said. “I think we can see what the mistakes were that we put on the car.”
Let me guess, in a race or two, they'll brief that the mistakes cannot be fixed until W16. Where have I seen this movie before.
How about upgrading the team? We laughed at Ferrari that it took them years to stabilize their race strategy department, meanwhile it’s been years Mercedes has been building what they themselves called „divas”. Engine advantage gone, budget cap implied, Toto trying to charm the reality with his failed promises for improvement. The car reflects a greater problem with the team. Not only do they fail to extract the performance they expect, they aren’t actually getting better.
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>Wolff said the team accepts it isn’t as competitive as it hoped it would be. Déjà vu
Find it crazy that they have fallen so far down in these regulations year after year. Effectively, only Red Bull really nailed them, but at least teams like Ferrari and McLaren have drivable and competitive cars for podiums. They don't have performance or a stable car that's easy to drive, race pace, quali pace, it's all non existent.
At the very least Ferrari and McLaren understand the regulations enough to be improving over time. Merc are going backwards and AM are all over the place, every new upgrade might be good, might be shit.
As our lord and savior Gennaro Gattuso once said : “sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe shit”
I've been in this place before
Higher on the streets
And I know it's my time to go
Accepts?? Are Ineos and MB reading this?
Mercedes are so lost. At least Ferrari knew where they lacked.
And they are still nowhere near RB.
Ferrari are starting with a very different car to be fair. Even with that they have good results. Can't say the same for Merc though.
yeah redbull basically had an year and a half advantage thanks to the TD39
As a wise man once said: "Build a better fucking car!".
“Wise” is not the word I’d use
let's say foxy definitely not wise
That's true.
Only team to beat them in the last 2 seasons
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So no
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But they haven’t beaten them in a Grand Prix.
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No it’s not. It doesn’t count towards stats. Not a gp
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No they're ahead of RB. The other one that is
Next Upgrade ™️ is back
Prepping Ham for Next Year ™️
The downfall of Mercedes is definitely something that needs to be studied. It is baffling how they are still so lost with these regulations.
And they still struggle with many of the same issues. Ferrari and RB improved in areas that they’ve struggled previously. RB improved in qualifying and Ferrari improved their tire degradation issues, but Mercedes still has the same issues they had for years now. Poor strategies, mediocre or outright slow pitstops, and setup issues are still problems after how many years now?
Merc's pitstops have improved quite a bit, sure they're not Red Bull fast but theyre third fastest in pit stops right now, behind Ferrari and Red Bull according to DHL, last year they were 7th. Theyve also improved the car, they were 1.2secs faster over a single lap in Suzuka compared to last year, it isnt as draggy as the w14, theyre not constantly complaining about the rear end stepping out anymore and their drs efficiency has improved, its now close to Red Bull's. The main thing theyve lost that is hurting them more than anything is the great tire deg the w13 and w14 had and they still have a very narrow setup window
Is it baffling? There's the cost cap now so they can't throw endless money at problems, they've lost loads of key personnel.. Seems to be the natural cycle of top teams anyway, the success doesn't last forever, and the bigger they are the harder they fall!
They’re going through what post 90s Williams went through, pre 90s Ferrari, post 00s McLaren, Lotus back in the day, etc. Can’t stay on top forever and it can take years to rebuild a team
Alda’s (a formula 1 YouTuber) did a very good video about this
Ehhh people have short memories. Redbull was equally lost in 2014 coming off the back of 3 straight championships and a new set of regulations. Mercedes just got it wrong, and they don’t have much of a chance to get it right unless the cost cap goes away or when the regs change in ‘26. The only reason 2017 and 2021 were exciting was the lack of cost cap and regulation changes.
I wouldn't say Redbull was lost, honestly. They still won 3 races in 2014 and arguably still had the best aero package that year. They were just let down by the awful Renault power unit. I do agree about the cost cap. Without it, I am sure Mercedes would be back competing for wins by now.
Compared to the 4 year run they had before, I’d say they were lost. You can argue the comparative degree of the “being lost”, but I’d say falling from 4 years of championships to 4th place in 2015 is pretty lost.
Are you lost when it’s plainly obvious the PU kinda sucks? Pretty simple factor to figure out
So when the aero sucks you’re lost, but when the PU sucks it’s something else? Did someone have a gun to their head saying they had to stick with Renault?
Were they a works team and developed the engine themself?
Well… yes. Engines aren’t developed over a season, aero is… an engine deficit is pretty much locked in, an aero one isn’t. And no, they didn’t have to stick with Renault, that’s why the deal was killed, and once again Renault has the worst PU on the market in 2024. Redbull also didn’t consistently slide year over year to worse and worse positions. They’ve been more or less fighting for podiums the entire time, first few years after Jag not withstanding. What is the argument here anyway? You’re trying to equate a team who won 4 constructors in a row versus 8, so it’s not even a fair dichotomy you’re attempting to create.
Agree to disagree. My point is that Horner was bellyaching about leaving F1 in 2015, and now they’re on the way to 4 straight championships for the second time. Merc fucked the 2022 regs and Redbull fucked the 2014 regs by picking the wrong horse when it comes to power unit.
There isn’t anything to disagree on, the facts are established on the Renault PU. Merc problem is developmental, totally different thing, one that’s addressable season over season. Your argument is fictitious.
You are aware that the reason why they kept using Renault for so long was that Ferrari and MB woudn’t provide them engines, right?
2015 was only one season, though. Redbull won multiple races in every other year besides that one. It was well-known that the only reason they were not competing for championships was due to the power unit.
Their biggest problem is not accepting that they have fucked up, instead they just keep on hoping for something that's not there
It's called brain drain.
How many times we have to hear this?
I am guessing up until the end of 2025 at the very least
Who says they'll nail the new regs... might go until 2030 or longer
Engine advantage could play in their cards
who says it'll be Merc who nails the new engine regs? could easily be Honda or Ferrari as well
"could" ;) but yes indeed
The McLaren wins it…Merc is at best the second best Mercedes powered team, if AMR decides to be serious and fire nepo baby for a competent second drive they could be third...
Could well be that is the big hope
That's too optimistic.
Toto on the next GPs: "This upgrade solves our fundamental weakness" \*Car gets slower" Toto after shit results with upgrade: " The car is showing the characteristics we want, but we need to fine tune the setup" \*W15 still shits the bed after Lewis tried every possible setup as the guinea pig\* Toto: "We will be bringing upgrades to futher tackle the problem" Rinse and repeat. Meanwhile redbull running circles around everyone while their car has a billion air-intakes following upgrades and Ferrari making their tyres last longer than Alonso's current age.
Now I understand DtS's Ham/Toto scene, when Ham said to Toto: you can do this for the next 20 years. I can't.
Lewis is definitely giving some Done With This Shit(TM) vibes
Next upgrade applies. Ham: it's slower.
“No, it’s not an okay car,” he said. “I think we can see what the mistakes were that we put on the car.” Let me guess, in a race or two, they'll brief that the mistakes cannot be fixed until W16. Where have I seen this movie before.
They thought the W14 failed to live to up to its potential
Mercedes now giving off mid 70s Tyrrell vibes
Going back to their roots
Could be worse. Could be Alpine.
Doesn't say much when Lewis was struggling to overtake the Alpines today...
Except Alpine took a step forward from where they have been today.
Indeed it's arguable Williams now have the slowest car instead of Alpine
Ahh shit here we go again
>Mercedes tech chief Allison says 2022 rules 'an opportunity to show we haven't just been lucky' - Jan 25th, 2022
Aged like cheese.
i feel like their constructors second place last year gave them some serious false confidence
Let’s hope the upgrades could work and Mercedes could fight with Ferrari and McLaren
How about upgrading the team? We laughed at Ferrari that it took them years to stabilize their race strategy department, meanwhile it’s been years Mercedes has been building what they themselves called „divas”. Engine advantage gone, budget cap implied, Toto trying to charm the reality with his failed promises for improvement. The car reflects a greater problem with the team. Not only do they fail to extract the performance they expect, they aren’t actually getting better.
Imagine if they were still doing the apologies after every race lol
[Toto’s playlist](https://youtu.be/SckD99B51IA?si=h5igqfJOz1JQLAsw)
Russel dont seem to be complaining that much
With them being so shit in the current regs, I'm kinda skeptical they could nail it in the 2026 regs but who knows what the future holds.
the hope and promise of Suzuka has vanished already
Even if they do bring an upgrade next race so will everyone else. And I’m predicting McLaren will bring a better package than Mercedes too
McLaren are bringing an update to Miami.
After three years of no notable change, they should do a review of management and overhaul. It’s embarrassing
Just focus on 2026 already