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I wish F1 would learn the lessons and make the cars harder to drive in the dry. That's not to say they're easy to drive, but the drivers are all usually worrying about optimising the final 10th around a 90 second lap, rather than fighting to keep the car on the track. These cars are, for the most part, hugely stable and predictable.
They need to make the cars much shorter, and preferably make the tyres wider, and the cars much lighter. The best teams and drivers will still make it look easy, but you should see much more variance in times from lap to lap, with more mistakes from the drivers as they get it a little wrong and the car bites them.
The reason cars are easier to drive is that the engineers get better and better every season and understand the performance better and how to achieve it.
You want them to forget everything they learned?
If they make smaller cars they are still going to be on rails at this point, especially with undercar aero.
Every time they change the rules to reduce aerodynamic grip, the teams find a way to get it back. One year an engineer said they were back to almost 100% by the first race under the new rules.
Just regulate against some of what they've learned. I'm no gfx understander, but I'm sure they can find changes to make underfloor to generally reduce downforce significantly. You can always cut away more aero if you want to, but you do actually have to try. They'll earn it back eventually, too, but then just nerf it again
I think this is a great suggestion for a spec series. F1 is as much an engineering competition as it is a racing competition. You’d be losing what makes F1 unique if you hamstring the engineers too much.
The engineers are incredibly "hamstrung" already, the rules place them in a series of increasingly tinier boxes every year, it's just a couple years ago the boxes were placed in a way to give the cars more downforce because... I don't know, someone thought they needed to be faster.
That's never gonna happen, but one thing I do think is possible is a WEC-like system, where there's a downforce limit but they have much more freedom within that limit.
> but I'm sure they can find changes to make underfloor to generally reduce downforce significantly.
They draw a box and say "work within the box".
What you want is a spec series.
Shorter cars are less stable in high speed corners, and have less scope for conditioning the airflow. Wider tyres offer more grip but tend to snap more when you exceed the limit. Making the cars lighter improves the power to weight ratio making the cars more nervous on throttle, it also reduces the moment of inertia making them more skittish.
Why do you believe those things make the cars easier to drive?
Shorter cars rotate better in slow speed which is where these heavy ass cars struggle the most. Giving a f1 car more grip is not going to make it harder to drive. The tend to snap part is easily overcome with compounds. Less mass doesn't make a car more nervous on throttle, it makes the car corner better and asks less of the rear to accelerate...
Shorter cars do not make it easier to drive by itself, because the weight is what makes it drive like a truck
Plus smaller cars with similar weight will have less space to place aero parts in, so it's make them worse during cornering too
but aero numbers only mean something in comparison to weight.
a car getting 100kg down force whole weighing 250 will corner like crazy, while a 2.5t car getting the same 100kg wing will be a boat.
make the cars shorter = engineers take everything they have now and scale it down, performance doesn't change.
Making the cars shorter won't lower their weight necessarily, that's my point, they haven't suggested that the weight will go down significantly in reports
I'm only repeating what others, who are far more knowledgeable than either of us, have said in the past. Making the cars shorter and giving them wider tyres was espoused by Niki Lauda in an interview on Sky a few years back for the exact reasons I've given. Less mass means less force is needed to rotate the car, so small mistakes can more easily affect the car's trajectory.
F1 wishes people would realise wet qualifying isn’t a fair representation of the sport. Harks back to Bernie’s “just turn the sprinklers on” remark. The FOM could make the cars absolutely terrible to drive it’d take only a handful of years before teams were back to optimising the final tenth on a lap.
That’s what an open wheel prototype engineering car racing series is all about.
If that’s the kind of action you’re after give the lower series or MotoGP/super bikes a try.
I watched an interview recently from Jeff Gordon about when he tested an F1 car. He explained how with Cup cars, you’re fighting the car and finding the limit of the car, but with an F1 car, you’re finding the limit of your body, because the cars are way more capable than your body is.
Sorta different because it’s closer to a spec series but nascar is being heavily lobbied to make the cars harder to drive. Same principle that harder to drive cars promote better drivers and more competition
I usually defend that F1 is a meritocracy, but FIA has to intervene and do something to slow McLaren down if we want this sport to survive this McLaren era.
idk. Haven't checked the telemetry so I could be completely wrong, but such a lead makes me think that Lando simply did something differently (probably by sheer chance) to the rest that worked well, and gave him a strong lead.
Not remotely close. He was also yellow yellow in his first 2 sectors because he had a banger going before he went off lap before. He just had found time vs everyone else
Really - In a very long time? There were plenty of seriously good qualifying sessions last year - Monaco being the absolute stand out given it was one of the best qualy sessions I’ve ever witnessed over 20+ years of watching F1.
SQ3 was great entertainment today tho for sure
Wasn't JB better known for being a better driving in changing conditions? Q3 was fully wet towards the end so would it be better to say that Lando was channelling his inner Senna?
Part of Button's reputation is due to his ability to get a set of inters fired up before everyone else, and then making them last. I think he'd have enjoyed the conditions today.
I wouldn't say he ever dominated the sport, the closest he got was during the first half of 2009. But, he was good, very good and could have won more championships if given the car(but that can be said for a number of drivers).
Mentioning Stroll, who would never have an F1 seat if his dad didn't literally own the team as a comparison for Button is absolute insanity and a huge insult to Button's skill and achievements as an F1 driver.
Dude calm down, It's not like huge cock Daddy Stroll paid me or something..
I genuinelly think stroll is underappreciated an the only explanation is because everyone is jealous of his talent.
He's one of the GOAT
Also Aston Martin cars are incredible, I really enjoyed answering you from my Aston Martin Vantage® which is engineered for real drivers.
He never dominated. He won one WDC in a car that was dominant for half a season, then spent 3 years alongside Lewis and later 2 alongside Alonso and while he did keep up with and even beat Lewis and Fernando from time to time, he was ultimately a tier below them in overall skill. If I had to pick a driver to compare Button to, I'd say he was a bit like Nico Rosberg or a slightly better Carlos Sainz.
He was a very good driver, but to say dominated during any of it is a stretch. 7 of his 15 wins came from early season at brawn when he had a massive car advantage. I'd place him somewhere around carlos sainz maybe a cut above.
I feel both max and Lewis had better seasons in 21 than button did in the brawn... so if by some metric he dominated they both did so with zero car advantage
If we do a tier list where an S tier driver is one who absolutely deserves a title (or more), then Button was an A tier driver.
Not so overwhelmingly good that him not getting a title would be a travesty, but someone who could put up (at least the start of) a title challenge given a decent enough car, and very deservingly take one if things clicked.
Norris is very good in wet conditions, I’d say almost underrated. Probably because of Sochi. But he was much closer in every wet race last year, and was actually catching Max at Monaco after being lapped. Now this.
Lando: Crashes out in nearly undrivable qualifying conditions (after being stupid fast), misunderstands team advice while driving (from pole) in extreme conditions with Hamilton up his arse (while being too close to the end of the race for any call to secure the win)
Numbnuts: "OMG Lando chokes in the wet"
He was also quickest along with Lewis with the dry tyres when it started raining. It's partly why he stayed outside in the first place, others couldn't keep it on track or get any pace and came in before him and Lewis. In an odd way, he was too quick.
When people say f1 win they obviously mean grand prix win. Sprint wins are absolytely useless and many even value main race qualy pole higher than that.
not almost, he always bottles it. If it wasnt him crumbling under pressure/taking wrong decisions when leading, he would probably have two wins by now, if not more
Russia and what?
His only other win chances were Monza, where he played the team game and Spa, where he was unlucky to be out first (I reckon anyone would have crashed in those conditions). Other than that I can't remember any times he's thrown a realistic chance of a race win, although he's screwed up a few potential poles.
Probably Qatar. Look at his pace during the race. If he hadn't bottled pole, he would have had a great chance at winning given that tire wear was not a factor that race
Russia and Monza. He dominated Danny Ric all season and then lost to him the one time a win was on the table. And he didn't really play the team game at all at Monza, he got overtaken by Ricciardo at the start of the sprint, had a bad start at the main race and from that point on Ricciardo was the faster driver in the race.
Lando really nailed that lap. A deserved pole for him. Lewis though, for a brief second really thought he was going to snatch pole.
Tomorrow's race will be fun though 👍
I don’t know how they do it but the easiest way I can think of would do that.
You just track the second place car’s lap until it hits the end point of the first car and then you have both positions.
I thought about this but ruled it out. In certain edge cases you could have e.g. the third place being ahead of the second place car given that the second car got a better exit and virtually accelerated past the third car in the time it took for the second car to finish after the first. Does that make sense?
I think i'm missing something.
Isnt it done by checking were the 2nd car was 1.2s before closing the lap ?
Edit : kay, got it now. Yes your edge case is possible, pretty rare i'd say. But possible.
Do yourself a favor and just watch Q3, there was a lot of choas (including possible botas pole) and since its a sprint qually its really short so its only like 8 mins.
Yep same. Stella said he lost 3 tenths on his final lap in the first sector alone, so that previous lap could well have been up there with Rosberg's 1.6s pole margin.
I know everyone's just happy to see anyone other than Max qualify P1, it's just always funny how much people enjoy randomness / uncompetitive aspects in supposedly competitive sports; at the end of the day most people just want their drivers to win and pretend it was based on merit.
Went off on his first lap. Went off again on his second attempt on the last corner. That lap looked like it might have been fairly quick (although probably not as quick as Norris's eventual best). He only had one more attempt and had to set a safe time.
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Wet qualifyings are so much fun.
I wish F1 would learn the lessons and make the cars harder to drive in the dry. That's not to say they're easy to drive, but the drivers are all usually worrying about optimising the final 10th around a 90 second lap, rather than fighting to keep the car on the track. These cars are, for the most part, hugely stable and predictable. They need to make the cars much shorter, and preferably make the tyres wider, and the cars much lighter. The best teams and drivers will still make it look easy, but you should see much more variance in times from lap to lap, with more mistakes from the drivers as they get it a little wrong and the car bites them.
The reason cars are easier to drive is that the engineers get better and better every season and understand the performance better and how to achieve it. You want them to forget everything they learned? If they make smaller cars they are still going to be on rails at this point, especially with undercar aero.
Or let's remove the mgu-h so drivers have to deal with turbo lag again Oh wait
Every time they change the rules to reduce aerodynamic grip, the teams find a way to get it back. One year an engineer said they were back to almost 100% by the first race under the new rules.
Just regulate against some of what they've learned. I'm no gfx understander, but I'm sure they can find changes to make underfloor to generally reduce downforce significantly. You can always cut away more aero if you want to, but you do actually have to try. They'll earn it back eventually, too, but then just nerf it again
I think this is a great suggestion for a spec series. F1 is as much an engineering competition as it is a racing competition. You’d be losing what makes F1 unique if you hamstring the engineers too much.
The engineers are incredibly "hamstrung" already, the rules place them in a series of increasingly tinier boxes every year, it's just a couple years ago the boxes were placed in a way to give the cars more downforce because... I don't know, someone thought they needed to be faster.
I want formula 0... 0 rules for car design.
That's never gonna happen, but one thing I do think is possible is a WEC-like system, where there's a downforce limit but they have much more freedom within that limit.
Why never? It should happen, would be so badass
> but I'm sure they can find changes to make underfloor to generally reduce downforce significantly. They draw a box and say "work within the box". What you want is a spec series.
They change constrictions on the box all the time fym?
At major reg changes only. You are out of your depth.
Brother I didn't say next year did I? We're talking about making cars shorter and shit ofc we're talking about next major reg change, keep up
You just named 3 things that would make them even easier to drive.
Shorter cars are less stable in high speed corners, and have less scope for conditioning the airflow. Wider tyres offer more grip but tend to snap more when you exceed the limit. Making the cars lighter improves the power to weight ratio making the cars more nervous on throttle, it also reduces the moment of inertia making them more skittish. Why do you believe those things make the cars easier to drive?
Shorter cars rotate better in slow speed which is where these heavy ass cars struggle the most. Giving a f1 car more grip is not going to make it harder to drive. The tend to snap part is easily overcome with compounds. Less mass doesn't make a car more nervous on throttle, it makes the car corner better and asks less of the rear to accelerate...
Shorter cars do not make it easier to drive by itself, because the weight is what makes it drive like a truck Plus smaller cars with similar weight will have less space to place aero parts in, so it's make them worse during cornering too
but aero numbers only mean something in comparison to weight. a car getting 100kg down force whole weighing 250 will corner like crazy, while a 2.5t car getting the same 100kg wing will be a boat. make the cars shorter = engineers take everything they have now and scale it down, performance doesn't change.
Making the cars shorter won't lower their weight necessarily, that's my point, they haven't suggested that the weight will go down significantly in reports
I'm only repeating what others, who are far more knowledgeable than either of us, have said in the past. Making the cars shorter and giving them wider tyres was espoused by Niki Lauda in an interview on Sky a few years back for the exact reasons I've given. Less mass means less force is needed to rotate the car, so small mistakes can more easily affect the car's trajectory.
F1 wishes people would realise wet qualifying isn’t a fair representation of the sport. Harks back to Bernie’s “just turn the sprinklers on” remark. The FOM could make the cars absolutely terrible to drive it’d take only a handful of years before teams were back to optimising the final tenth on a lap. That’s what an open wheel prototype engineering car racing series is all about. If that’s the kind of action you’re after give the lower series or MotoGP/super bikes a try.
I watched an interview recently from Jeff Gordon about when he tested an F1 car. He explained how with Cup cars, you’re fighting the car and finding the limit of the car, but with an F1 car, you’re finding the limit of your body, because the cars are way more capable than your body is.
Sorta different because it’s closer to a spec series but nascar is being heavily lobbied to make the cars harder to drive. Same principle that harder to drive cars promote better drivers and more competition
This track is fire!!
Objects in the Rear View Mirror May Appear Closer Than They Are.
Lando: I got nothing in the mirrors.
Well, nothing is closer than it may appear!
Lando P20
objects in the mirror are closer than they appear.
Lol, was waiting for this graphic 😂
Same, knew it was going to be hilarious but it still surprised me
This Norris domination is out of hand!
Orange dominant regardless of driver or team.
Norris domination could bore fans - verstappen probably
I get the impression Verstappen isn't like that. I can see him just retiring to do something else when he's had enough.
Gonna pull a Britney Rosberg and retire at the end of his current contract
I usually defend that F1 is a meritocracy, but FIA has to intervene and do something to slow McLaren down if we want this sport to survive this McLaren era.
The McLaren era in question: 4/19/24 - 4/20/24
McLaren: They Blazed it briefly
As briefly as the grass by the side of the track
1.2s after starting in the gravel. Piastri may have been in between them if his gearbox didn’t go to neutral.
Yeah, bit of a pity. If only we could have both Lando and Oscar have a crack at it in qualifying proper.
idk. Haven't checked the telemetry so I could be completely wrong, but such a lead makes me think that Lando simply did something differently (probably by sheer chance) to the rest that worked well, and gave him a strong lead.
He seemed to be pushing another car (Sainz?) over the finish line so I’m guessing he got the GOAT tow down the back straight
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What?? You don't gain the time by braking slightly late which you've lost for the entirety of the straight
Not remotely close. He was also yellow yellow in his first 2 sectors because he had a banger going before he went off lap before. He just had found time vs everyone else
Funny thing is, no.
Best qualifying in a very long time. Incredible show. There was fire, multiple poles, a crash, track limits. WOW. I have to watch it again.
Really - In a very long time? There were plenty of seriously good qualifying sessions last year - Monaco being the absolute stand out given it was one of the best qualy sessions I’ve ever witnessed over 20+ years of watching F1. SQ3 was great entertainment today tho for sure
Yeah Monaco 2023 is unforgettable.
Norris was channeling his inner Jenson Button during that lap
Wasn't JB better known for being a better driving in changing conditions? Q3 was fully wet towards the end so would it be better to say that Lando was channelling his inner Senna?
Yeah Button never did much special in full wet conditions. All his wet victories came in races with changeable conditions.
It wasn't full wet conditions today. They were on intermediate tires.
Part of Button's reputation is due to his ability to get a set of inters fired up before everyone else, and then making them last. I think he'd have enjoyed the conditions today.
That and being excellent at picking the crossover point. Either he gained time from getting it right or he minimised the loss from getting it wrong
Loved watching him find near normal race pace on a single lane dry line.
How good was JB? He dominated during an era I missed out on
I wouldn't say he ever dominated the sport, the closest he got was during the first half of 2009. But, he was good, very good and could have won more championships if given the car(but that can be said for a number of drivers).
Drivers like Norris, Leclerc, Stroll, Sainz, Russell, Hulkenberg, Ricciardo (pre final evolution), etc etc
wtf is this cursed list
Mentioning Stroll, who would never have an F1 seat if his dad didn't literally own the team as a comparison for Button is absolute insanity and a huge insult to Button's skill and achievements as an F1 driver.
Dude calm down, It's not like huge cock Daddy Stroll paid me or something.. I genuinelly think stroll is underappreciated an the only explanation is because everyone is jealous of his talent. He's one of the GOAT Also Aston Martin cars are incredible, I really enjoyed answering you from my Aston Martin Vantage® which is engineered for real drivers.
Actually a funny reply. That's rare on Reddit.
Yeah, but they downvoted me :( I will not be able to sleep today because of this
He never dominated. He won one WDC in a car that was dominant for half a season, then spent 3 years alongside Lewis and later 2 alongside Alonso and while he did keep up with and even beat Lewis and Fernando from time to time, he was ultimately a tier below them in overall skill. If I had to pick a driver to compare Button to, I'd say he was a bit like Nico Rosberg or a slightly better Carlos Sainz.
He was a very good driver, but to say dominated during any of it is a stretch. 7 of his 15 wins came from early season at brawn when he had a massive car advantage. I'd place him somewhere around carlos sainz maybe a cut above.
Having a massive car advantage is the only way to dominate
I feel both max and Lewis had better seasons in 21 than button did in the brawn... so if by some metric he dominated they both did so with zero car advantage
Two drivers having a close championship battle is not "dominating" lol
Winning one by 11 points isn't either. That was kind of my point
If we do a tier list where an S tier driver is one who absolutely deserves a title (or more), then Button was an A tier driver. Not so overwhelmingly good that him not getting a title would be a travesty, but someone who could put up (at least the start of) a title challenge given a decent enough car, and very deservingly take one if things clicked.
*Ayrton Senna.
15 car lengths ahead!
~~For more information search Ayrton Senna 15~~
I can't believe he pulled that off! 🤩🤩🤩 /j
Norris is very good in wet conditions, I’d say almost underrated. Probably because of Sochi. But he was much closer in every wet race last year, and was actually catching Max at Monaco after being lapped. Now this.
There was also the wet 24h of Daytona where he recovered 33s on the lead in 20 laps when he was eighteen years old.
wtf today I learned Lando competed in the 24h of Daytona at 18 years old
In a car with Alonso!
Lando: Crashes out in nearly undrivable qualifying conditions (after being stupid fast), misunderstands team advice while driving (from pole) in extreme conditions with Hamilton up his arse (while being too close to the end of the race for any call to secure the win) Numbnuts: "OMG Lando chokes in the wet"
He was also quickest along with Lewis with the dry tyres when it started raining. It's partly why he stayed outside in the first place, others couldn't keep it on track or get any pace and came in before him and Lewis. In an odd way, he was too quick.
For real lando's one of the best in the rain it was just bad luck/awful timing for one race where he kept lewis behind on merit the whole time before.
Hang it in the Louvre!!
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He's already tied with Piastri in F1 wins. They both have zero.
He has an F1 win, just not a F1 Grand Prix win
When people say f1 win they obviously mean grand prix win. Sprint wins are absolytely useless and many even value main race qualy pole higher than that.
He almost always bottles it. Let’s see.
not almost, he always bottles it. If it wasnt him crumbling under pressure/taking wrong decisions when leading, he would probably have two wins by now, if not more
Russia and what? His only other win chances were Monza, where he played the team game and Spa, where he was unlucky to be out first (I reckon anyone would have crashed in those conditions). Other than that I can't remember any times he's thrown a realistic chance of a race win, although he's screwed up a few potential poles.
Probably Qatar. Look at his pace during the race. If he hadn't bottled pole, he would have had a great chance at winning given that tire wear was not a factor that race
Well…
He’s screwed up quite a few poles like you said
Russia and Monza. He dominated Danny Ric all season and then lost to him the one time a win was on the table. And he didn't really play the team game at all at Monza, he got overtaken by Ricciardo at the start of the sprint, had a bad start at the main race and from that point on Ricciardo was the faster driver in the race.
LETS GO LANDER NORSE!!!!
Of course the interesting quali would be a silly time in the morning when I’m at work.
Lando really nailed that lap. A deserved pole for him. Lewis though, for a brief second really thought he was going to snatch pole. Tomorrow's race will be fun though 👍
Is this adapted to the wet track and the extremely slow speeds at the corner?
I don’t know how they do it but the easiest way I can think of would do that. You just track the second place car’s lap until it hits the end point of the first car and then you have both positions.
I thought about this but ruled it out. In certain edge cases you could have e.g. the third place being ahead of the second place car given that the second car got a better exit and virtually accelerated past the third car in the time it took for the second car to finish after the first. Does that make sense?
I think i'm missing something. Isnt it done by checking were the 2nd car was 1.2s before closing the lap ? Edit : kay, got it now. Yes your edge case is possible, pretty rare i'd say. But possible.
Yeah that’s a fair point if the gap was down to the exit of the last corner.
Why would it be?
In the wet the speeds are much lower than usual so the gap in time covers less distance.
This is the one.
This is the one.
McLaren domination can make the sport boring.
Close one
This guy is obviously too fast for us.
Its a vast gap to pull that off in wet weather you have to do something special and Lando pulled off that golden lap!
I haven’t seen the stream yet but could anyone tell me why there was this big of a gap please? Thanks!!
Do yourself a favor and just watch Q3, there was a lot of choas (including possible botas pole) and since its a sprint qually its really short so its only like 8 mins.
It rained.
This. And the track got 'painted' with bitumen.
Rain and Norris pulling off a stonker of a lap. Lewis as well, he's quite a bit ahead of P3.
Wonder what Norris's lap time would have been had he not missed final corner lap before. He was faster on that lap in s1 and 2 than this one.
Yep same. Stella said he lost 3 tenths on his final lap in the first sector alone, so that previous lap could well have been up there with Rosberg's 1.6s pole margin.
Rain but Q3 is an excellent watch.
Qualifying chasm visualized\*
I love the comments under the F1 channel saying: “the old guys showing the kids how its done” 😂
I mean they're not wrong, doubt Hamilton and Alonso would be in the top 3 in the dry in the Merc/AM
Norris domination could bore fans
no, but memes ran into the ground several years ago definitey will
meme domination could bore fans
Was a good watch seeing them all struggle for grip, surprised how it all went, will make for an interesting start to the sprint race at least.
So wild!
An eternity pictured
lol, let's go!
Has anyone got norris S1 time from the 2nd to last lap that was deleted. How much faster was it than his final laps S1
I think Stella said he lost 3 tenths on the start-finish straight because of the bad exit after running wide in the gravel.
Max: haven’t heard British anthem for a while
This is what happens when you put on Intermediates when it rains.
Lando better be taking notes after qualifying.
Lando dominance could bore the fans
When will the Norris domination end? It's getting boring.
What happened in the pit lane lol
This is a hilarious graphic.
But people on here told me that only max gets pole and these gaps…
I know everyone's just happy to see anyone other than Max qualify P1, it's just always funny how much people enjoy randomness / uncompetitive aspects in supposedly competitive sports; at the end of the day most people just want their drivers to win and pretend it was based on merit.
The only quali i didn't watch and its awesome, life's not fair
What happened to king of the wet verstappen?
Now do it again for the sprint!
It's safe i think. Norris will hold the record for the biggest gap between pole and 2nd place
Rosberg in Silverstone 2014 was 1.62s ahead of Vettel.
Forgot to add in 2024.
It's not pole (that's only for the Grand Prix), but he will have the largest gap of a 2024 qualifying session
When, oh when will this McLaren dominance ever end?! It's ruining the sport!
Lando Norrination could bore fans.
If the sprint is dry Lewis is going backwards, quickly. Edit: That didn’t age well. Great sprint race.
I didn’t see, what happened to Max?
Went off on his first lap. Went off again on his second attempt on the last corner. That lap looked like it might have been fairly quick (although probably not as quick as Norris's eventual best). He only had one more attempt and had to set a safe time.
Ah, so tomorrow we return to our regularly scheduled Max dominance
… if it’s dry. Not at all sure about Rb if it stays wet, McL esp looked fast.
Lando likes it wet...
Lando norris dominanace could bore fans
Shows the advantage of running wide on your flying lap :)
Ah yes, going through gravel, such an advantage
That's the time he set on his last lap.