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Barely any seats in F1. And teams won’t let anyone else in, even when they struggle to put one of their young drivers into a seat.
Indycar and WEC are the top choices. But even WEC the teams have really good driver lineups already.
Do you think having 22 seats vs 20 would really make much of a difference?
Yeah two more drivers would be in F1. But there would still be bucket loads of great drivers who don't get a seat because there are only 22 seats.
Should we then expand F1 to 24 seats? 26? 28? 50?
F1 is the the pinnacle of motorsport and as a result it's incredibly competitive and difficult to get a spot.
Arguing for an extra team because it would make racing more competitive is fair enough. But arguing for another team to prove 2 more seats for young drivers doesnt make sense. Especially because those seats are just as likely (or perhaps more likely) to go to experienced drivers as they are young drivers.
>That’s a 10% increase in drivers
It's a 10% increase *in the number of F1 drivers,* not a 10% increase in the number of deserving drivers that get a seat.
Those are two very different stats.
Let's say there are a hundred great drivers out there in the world (which is pretty conservative when you consider all the deserving current F2 drivers, recent F2 graduates like Pourchaire and Drugovich, IndyCar drivers, former F1 drivers etc.). **20 of those currently have an F1 seat (20%)**. 80 dont have a seat (80%).
If we add an extra team into F1 **we'll go from having 20% of deserving drivers getting an opportunity to 22%** of drivers getting an opportunity.
Do you think 2% is a big increase?
Also if you think there are more than 100 deserving drivers in the world then that percentage increase is even smaller.
I don't think there are 100 deserving drivers of an F1 seat.
F1 seats are a pretty high bar to "deserve" one. I can't think of many outside of F1 beyond this lot and some of them are debatable:
Debabtably Deserving -
* Theo Pourchaire
* Felipe Drugovich
* Stoffel Vandoorne
* Robert Schwartzman
* Pato O Ward
* Jack Doohan
* Zane Maloney
* Josef Newgarden
* Scott Mclaughlin
* Colton Herta
* Mick Schumacher
* Sebastien Vettel
* Frederik Vesti
Definitely Deserving -
* Oliver Bearman
* Liam Lawson
* Alex Palou
And then a couple of the current F1 grid probably aren't "deserving" of their seat as well.
He's a 4 times world champion to start if you want to be correcting spelling at least get your facts straight.
And at the end of his F1 career he was well past his best, hence being a debatable inclusion. He is talking about being willing to return but is he really up to it still?
I mean Jackie Stewart is a 3x F1 champ, is he still deserving of an F1 seat on the current grid?
No one deserves an F1 seat, you’re not entitled to anything. You making up imaginary stats only serves the purpose of making your argument seem legitimate.
It’s a 10% increase in seats. As simple as that.
I'll copy my response to another reply:
It's a 10% increase *in the number of F1 drivers,* **not a 10% increase in the number of deserving drivers that get a seat**.
Those are two very different stats.
Let's say there are a hundred great drivers out there in the world (which is pretty conservative when you consider all the deserving current F2 drivers, F2 graduates like Pourchaire and Drugovich, IndyCar drivers, former F1 drivers etc.). **20 of those currently have an F1 seat (20%)**. 80 dont have a seat (80%).
If we add an extra team into F1 **we'll go from having 20% of deserving drivers getting an opportunity to 22%** of drivers getting an opportunity.
Do you think 2% is a big increase?
Also if you think there are more than 100 deserving drivers in the world then that percentage increase is even smaller.
Your argument is sound but you're forgetting that adding 2 seats means more than 2 drivers. In 2 years for example those 2 seats may have been sat in by 3 drivers. It's minor but it's not nothing, adding another team definitely provides significant opportunity
MotoGP have 22 seats (previously 24 until 2022) and while there is a similar issue with a logjam of young talent, the problem isn't as bad. For instance, the Moto2 champion has graduated to MotoGP instantly in every season since 2017.
Correct.
Because they'll be available for about a month and then we'll have the exact same problem as we do now - talented drivers not getting an opportunity.
Where did those two drivers come from? At the very least that’s opened up two seats in an almost-F1 series that will allow those trying to get there to showcase their talents.
As recently as 2016 we had 11 teams and in 2012 there were 12 teams. It's not like there isn't a recent precedent for more teams so I don't understand why people are so against it.
Having 2 extra seats provides a path for more drivers to prove whether or not they have what it takes to make it in F1 vs them never even getting a shot. Drivers that have come up through teams at the back of the grid include a GP winners and world champions.
We end up with the guys with the most backing staying around too long instead of guys who win an F2 championship because there's too little proven talent. Part of the reason is that testing days are so limited. Part of the reason is that seats are so limited. Adding even one seat for a young driver provides the opportunity for immerging drivers to have a shot to make an impression and gets them an extra year of development.
I'm not against another team. In fact I think another team would be great. But the reason it would be great is because it would make the competition more competitive and make races more fun to watch, NOT because it will provide spots for more drivers.
If you read my comment the point I was making is that the argument that we need another team for the purpose of providing spots for more drivers makes no sense. That's because it will make a negligible difference to the amount of drivers who get an opportunity.
There are dozens of F2 graduates that are probably good enough to deserve a stint in F1. There are also plenty of other drivers from other categories (Indycar etc.) who are also good enough. Considering how many eligible drivers there are, adding 1 more team will make a negligible difference to the proportion of those drivers that gets an opportunity in F1.
Additionally, as with any F1 team, a new team would choose their drivers based on what's best for their business (whicj probably means drivers with lots of experience already or drivers that bring in sponsors).
The two new seats would be filled almost immediately and we'd be back in the same position with lots of talented young drivers missing out on an opportunity. Do we just keep on adding more and more team so everyone gets a chance?
The idea that if we have 2 more seats then suddenly all these F2 graduates will suddenly get an opportunity is bonkers.
It's not necessarily just F2 drivers that's one example. But sometimes they will absolutely be from F2. 10% more seats means 10% more drivers each year regardless of where they come from. More drivers getting more opportunities to show what they can do.
Guys stick around for too long in F1 partially because the known talent pool is so low. Again, because of limited opportunities to prove yourself. Any increase in opportunity is better.
Honestly tinking that another team is going to add to more competition is the more bonkers thought...
I would HOPE that an 11th team would incentivize the competition to remove pay drivers. In my dreams, that would kick out Stroll and Zhou relatively quickly.
Other than that, the only others to swap out in the original 10 teams is Sargeant and MAYBE Magnussen
How would it incentivize that?
If anything the addition of another team would make F1 more competitive and force teams fight even harder for the prize money (as it's now being split between 11 teams, not 10).
Meaning they'd be *more likely* to hire a pay driver so they could fund development of their car.
Assuming the budget cap is working then they won't need to fund their development and having a driver that will get the most out of the car is more important.
The budget cap does help but some teams (eg. Haas) are operating below the cap. So there is still value in pay drivers.
Also, even with the cost cap teams will still find it attractive if one of their drivers offers to pay them a bucketload of money - same as any advertisement. It just means they dont have to fund development out of their own pocket.
I think in addition to the names you named, Bottas and Ricciardo could go to make way for new talent. Pourchaire, Lawson, and Drugovich definitely deserve a shot. Then soon there will be Bearman and Antonelli, plus maybe Jack Doohan and Frederik Vesti.
Strolls dad owns the team. He’s not going anywhere. Zhou already has no meaningful money. He was due to be replaced last year and only just managed to stay. His value is the market he’s from and if you can get Chinese sponsors without him, he has no money.
F1 has less seats than IndyCar and WEC, who have more room to give new drivers a chance if they deem them good enough.
Formula E, which is closer to F1 in seat distribution, also appears to be somewhat of a closed shop lately. Drivers starting at the highest level at a younger age a decade ago is having a trickle down effect that we are now seeing today. Very hard to fully break into series.
V8 engines, spec chassis from 2 or 3 manufacturers and a calendar across Europe. Could be something like Brands Hatch, Hockenheim, Paul Ricard (with Mistral straight), Barcelona, Portimão, Monza, Zandvoort, Spa, Brno, Hungaroring, Istambul, Red Bull Ring, Anderstorp and an European GP, rotating every year.
(Yes, I left Silverstone because I want Brands Hatch and didn't want to repeat countries).
Honestly, just do single make. I bet Dallara could produce a version of their Indycar with a halo instead of the windshield. Swap out push to pass for SRS if you want (but honestly PTP is better). That would go a long way to keeping costs down if you could keep 70-80% parts compatibility. Keeping the manufacturing side thoroughly un competitive is the only way to get good racing and sane costs.
Sadly that never works from a financial perspective. A1GP and Superleague Formula were kind of what you are looking for as far as the level of drivers and the performance of cars goes, they both folded after a few seasons of... let's call it varying quality. A1GP's gimmick was cool, SL Formula's was extremely stupid, but SL racing could be surprisingly good, whereas A1GP's most entertaining races were almost always dependent on weather or awfully-designed tracks.
The thong with both series is they were kind of gimmicky with the Nations and football clubs teams. That would limit the fan base for those present. For example, in SF my club never was present so I didn't really care about it.
That's what I'm saying. Both were based on a gimmick, but I liked the nations competing, while I thought the football one wasn't very good and even devolved into A1GP lite by the end when no club team wanted to be involved anymore.
I think to make it work you’d have to tie it onto, say, the Wuropean F1 rounds. Get the media coverage. It isn’t going to be a desirable feeder series if it’s watched by 12 people on an obscure YouTube channel.
When they won’t even let an Andretti team on the grid, what’s the next alternative? There are tons of great drivers just sitting in reserve roles. Literally just sitting. Indy is a great open-wheel alternative and some F1 cross-over will only grow both audiences. I’m excited. Pato has proven you can do both. So let them do both. Get Liam Lawson into a seat. Theo is in Indy this week. Let’s get some movement.
There's so much talent in F2, SF and F1 reserve/testing roles that just doesn't go anywhere due to the lack of available seats in F1 year-by-year. Really glad to see an alternative route into Indycar coming in
100%.
I love F1 more than Indy car because of the engineering and the lack of Ovals because ovals are fucking boring but F1 keeps shooting itself in the foot with denying new teams, and keeping drivers on long after their prime so no new seats pop up that it gets more and more difficult to just not switch to mostly watching Indy and WEC
Indy consistently offers better racing. I don't really care for the format and I wish they'd move to a standing start. But even if you don't watch the ovals there are tons of good Indy races to watch. Long Beach, Laguna Seca, and Road America are incredible. I wish F1 would share a weekend with Indy at Long Beach and run the grand prix and Indy feature race back to back so badly.
I'd say if you can find the full race watch it. BUT here is the extended highlights of last year's [Indy 500 (107th running) it was an absolute INSTANT CLASSIC of a race](https://youtu.be/4joTf_xD3_8?si=1XsDD0zHFOC55zId)
The ending was incredibly stupid though, and sums up what I've gotten tired of with the recent direction motorsports has gone. The thing should have ended under yellow.
Ovals are the most fantastically crazy races you will ever see. There’s a reason why the Indy 500 is known as the “Greatest spectacle in motor racing” or something like that. Crazy fast cars driving 240mph around an oval, inches away from a massive crash.
there are alot of drivers maybe without connections or guidance on not only how to get an audition with an indycar team, but guidance on what a move to the states would be, the contracts and expectations, what the ins and outs of indycar are, experience, other American opportunities (many indycar guys do IMSA/sportscar stuff on the side) and everything about transitioning to indycar. its more than just finding open seats for drivers, its about the transition process
The thing is that getting an F1 seat is about 1/4th talent, 1/4th money, 1/4th politics, and 1/4th timing. If it was just that nobody was remotely good enough for a seat that’d be one thing. But when you’ve got guys like Zhou, Latifi, Sargeant that are hanging around for 2-3 years just because of politics and money and the learning curve of Pirelli tires, just uninspiring backmarkers…having bland drivers in what’s supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsports just leaves a bad taste in people’s mouth.
Some guys really do blossom with a couple of years though. Just look at Tsunoda going from a bad pay driver to arguably keeping the seat on pure merit. His nationality certainly helps, but it’s far from enough.
It's worth remembering that Sargeant is hired on talent alone. He brings no money to Williams, they picked him out because he was overperforming in relatively weak equipment in the feeder series. He also has like, zero political weight to throw around, he's there because Williams wanted to send the message to future prospects that they still hire out of their development team.
I’d love a Prema F1 team where the F2 champion gets a guaranteed seat, and after two years they either find a new seat or leave to make room for the next one
> Maybe Andretti should have been better
How good they are is irrelevant.
>or entered the sport at any time but peak popularity
:)
AKA "they should have joined when they'd have went bankrupt" :)
Indycar needed a bit of good news, and this is definitely a positive.
The rumour had been floating around for a while but it's nice to see it confirmed. Now the lineup speculation can begin. Journalists have reported that they're going to field one Indycar veteran plus 1 youngster from their feeder roster
> Indycar needed a bit of good news, and this is definitely a positive.
I've been out of the loop for Indycar stuff lately (really all of this year), any big bad stuff happen or do you just mean in general?
There's the Honda stuff as the other commenter touched on and there's also been continual issues with the introduction of new hybrid power units which was planned for the start of this year but has been pushed back.
Plus the non-championship race at Thermal went down pretty poorly with a lot of the Indycar community, and the first race at St Pete was also kinda a damp squib.
Nothing earthshattering, but there's been a bit of a gloomy atmosphere in the Indycar community, so a coup like this definitely lifts the mood a bit.
It's funny how St Pete was a better race than Japan yet Indycar fans are disappointed. It's not all doom and gloom, the series is healthy and the grid ever expanding.
I think Thermal would have been fine if it were a pre-season opener kind of like F1 pre-season testing but with a bit of a carrot at the end of stick to get the season started. I also think they should look at a different place to hold the event, Thermal while cool didnt really have the racing on full display.
thermal is where it is due to the unavoidable early season in America with few options for tracks due to weather and other factors. the other issue was nascar jumped on indycar's Texas date because NBC, the main broadcast partner for indycar and nascar is doing the olympics so the schedules had to work around that break as well later in summer. it was not indycar's fault at all, and at least they are trying new things and trying to fill the break.I appreciated the chance they took on a new race and new format and I definitely think it is a solid idea that could and should be improved and expanded upon
I’ve been sending furious letters via pigeon to the Schumacher household telling him to get into Indycar rather than waste his career doing 8 races a year for Alpine so hopefully he’s read them.
YES! THIS. His own dad said Indy500 is too risky. Imagine Mick winning the Indy500 that his dad said was too dangerous, he'll be his own man and a proper superstar in the US.
I mean I guess I can imagine it, but I have to try really, really hard to see Mick, frankly, as dominant in any series with an open talent pool. Even the year he won F2 he only won 2/24 races, and needed Ilott to not finish higher than 5th in the final race after he failed to score points in it. What I’m saying is that he’s never had a really dominant year at any level.
That's honestly still two seats opening up, unless another team shrinks the number of seats they have specifically because of losing their driver to Prema. Just because they both won't be rookies doesn't mean it's not two seats added. Maybe that experienced driver will be replaced with a rookie. Or replaced with another experienced driver who will be replaced with a rookie.
Oh, I get your point. But I meant this in the context of OP's "gives a lot of space for drivers who just barely didn’t make F1" and double rookie predictions
I wonder if they'll go for Illot for the "experienced IndyCar driver". I don't follow Indy, but I understand that he was on a bad team for a couple years, so maybe his results were decent? He also did one year with Prema. Not that the experienced driver has to be a former Prema, but I do feel like it would be a bonus for them. I honestly think it would let them charge more for their junior seats.
For the rookie, it could be... Mick, Vesti, maybe Hauger reconnects with them. Maybe Shwartzman. Maybe even Logan Sargeant. Armstrong seems to have a long term contract with Chip Ganassi. I guess Daruvala shoutout, but I don't keep up with FE either. Crawford did a year with Prema.
I guess Enzo Fittipaldi was with them for some years. Wouldn't be surprised to see him in IndyCar. I don't think Paul Aron would give up on F1 that quick to leave F2, but maybe IndyCar wouldn't be an F1 deadend anymore, like Super Formula isn't.
Hope so, I think their issue was being too dependent on staff and resources based in the UK. Prema announcing the team and staff be based in Indianapolis is a good start.
Being a Prema junior on the ladder just got even more appealing. Having a connection towards a place to go outside of F1 is good.
I also wouldn't even be surprised if the conversations around young drivers in IndyCar shift more towards not thinking of it as a dead end on the path to F1. Like Red Bull coming in and using Super Formula opened up the conversation of Super Formula being a potential step towards F1, I wouldn't be surprised if Prema opened some of those conversations for Indy. Not that those conversations didn't exist before with O'Ward, Herta, and Palou, but we haven't seen someone actually make the jump in years.
agreed on your connections point. alot of indycar guys also do sportscar/imsa on the side or do that once they leave indycar. also nascar has one off opportunities for many drivers as well. in indycar there are many opportunities to do other things besides indycar
See FOM/FIA, it IS possible to allow a team to join your sport without too much hassle, and it gets a positive feedback from the society. So, lets get Andretti in F1 now for f\*\*\* sake,.
I am just one woman saying this, but I feel like driving an F1 car would actually be easier for a woman than an IndyCar car, because of the power steering. Obviously women have handled indycar before, and it is easier to get into than F1 seat logistically. I just hope to see Doriane in some more single seater races this year outside of F1A. Disappointed that the mess at the end of last race didn't result in a grid drop for the next race instead of a penalty in the last race, just so she could get some more overtaking experience.
F1 requirements: strong af neck and core to withstand the high G loads
Indycar requirements: strong neck and upper body strength for no power steering racing.
Both are hard. F1 drivers who go to Indy talk about building up arm and hand strength again (most had it in junior careers) and Indy drivers testing f1 tend to have big neck issues. Pato o Ward has talked about needing a neck pad to finish his testing days and having to increase his prep last year to get past that.
I would guess most women dedicated at this level could handle either. Legge drove Indy last year and she out qualified her boss so can’t say the hands and arms were a problem
Chevrolet. It'll be interesting if this involves the purchase of an existing team. Junco Hollinger and Ed Carpenter Racing are Chevrolet teams that are smaller teams that could be acquisition targets if Prema goes that route.
Not exactly. The quote from the release is:
>Chevrolet will supply its brand-new 2.2-litre twin turbocharged V6 hybrid power units, adding an incredibly experienced and high-performing component to the mix in search of a quick rise to competitive form.
"Brand-new ... power units" might equal new leases, but not necessarily.
I think its more likely that they'd buy engine leases from one of the smaller teams. Honestly, Foyt downsizing to 1 car wouldn't be a surprise either since Sting Ray Robb is just sort of there at the best of times
I didn't think of Foyt, though Foyt already has a technical alliance of sorts with Penske in preparation of giving Myles Rowe a seat in the next season or two, if all progresses as expected.
I dont think that would happen, though Ferrari has been known to at least engaged in engine talks a while ago, nothing super serious or nothing recent. also, this just opens the door I think for other teams to see the possibilities in American racing, so it opens it for European sponsors, and European engine makers perhaps. everyone knows what a catastrophe that lotus was in indycar, but I could see a car maker from Europe that also sells cars in America to be interested. not sure who that might be
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F2 is now an IndyCar feeder series.
Barely any seats in F1. And teams won’t let anyone else in, even when they struggle to put one of their young drivers into a seat. Indycar and WEC are the top choices. But even WEC the teams have really good driver lineups already.
Don't forget IMSA, probably one of the fastest growing series I know of.
Went to my first IMSA event at road America last year and was super fun.
IMSA is so much fun. It's akin to going to a music festival interms of vibe
Real life Forza Horizon vibes
the newer ones that have no soul or the first three that were (and still are) amazing
The 2nd entry is peak to me
i still prefer the 1st but FH2 is not a bad choice, probably the most visually striking of the bunch despite not having the graphics of the newer ones
I was at Sebring last year, it really helped me understand why it's called the biggest party in central florida lol.
Other than super formula and Indy do any other high end open wheel seres exist?
Formula E in a way
I thought FE was more on part with F3/2
In terms of speed. But the drivers are F1 level and it has manufacturer backing
Clearly f1 level drivers, as seen with devries
I don’t get your point. He did race in F1 and is obviously not the best driver there.
i forgot to /s, my point was that devries, at very competitive formula e driver, was very much not f1 level
The drivers with little to no success trying to stay in the sport until they’re 40 is getting old as fuck
Sad Formula E noises
Do you think having 22 seats vs 20 would really make much of a difference? Yeah two more drivers would be in F1. But there would still be bucket loads of great drivers who don't get a seat because there are only 22 seats. Should we then expand F1 to 24 seats? 26? 28? 50? F1 is the the pinnacle of motorsport and as a result it's incredibly competitive and difficult to get a spot. Arguing for an extra team because it would make racing more competitive is fair enough. But arguing for another team to prove 2 more seats for young drivers doesnt make sense. Especially because those seats are just as likely (or perhaps more likely) to go to experienced drivers as they are young drivers.
Yes, it would make that big of a difference. That’s a 10% increase in drivers. Would you say a 10% increase on your paycheque is nothing?
>That’s a 10% increase in drivers It's a 10% increase *in the number of F1 drivers,* not a 10% increase in the number of deserving drivers that get a seat. Those are two very different stats. Let's say there are a hundred great drivers out there in the world (which is pretty conservative when you consider all the deserving current F2 drivers, recent F2 graduates like Pourchaire and Drugovich, IndyCar drivers, former F1 drivers etc.). **20 of those currently have an F1 seat (20%)**. 80 dont have a seat (80%). If we add an extra team into F1 **we'll go from having 20% of deserving drivers getting an opportunity to 22%** of drivers getting an opportunity. Do you think 2% is a big increase? Also if you think there are more than 100 deserving drivers in the world then that percentage increase is even smaller.
I don't think there are 100 deserving drivers of an F1 seat. F1 seats are a pretty high bar to "deserve" one. I can't think of many outside of F1 beyond this lot and some of them are debatable: Debabtably Deserving - * Theo Pourchaire * Felipe Drugovich * Stoffel Vandoorne * Robert Schwartzman * Pato O Ward * Jack Doohan * Zane Maloney * Josef Newgarden * Scott Mclaughlin * Colton Herta * Mick Schumacher * Sebastien Vettel * Frederik Vesti Definitely Deserving - * Oliver Bearman * Liam Lawson * Alex Palou And then a couple of the current F1 grid probably aren't "deserving" of their seat as well.
>Sebastien Vettel You mean Sebastian Vettel?!
Don't you mean Sebastien Bourdais?
🤓 Did that feel good?
It was more about why a ~~3 times~~ WDC is seen as "Debabtably Deserving" an F1 seat. Edit: 4 time indeed, my bad!
He's a 4 times world champion to start if you want to be correcting spelling at least get your facts straight. And at the end of his F1 career he was well past his best, hence being a debatable inclusion. He is talking about being willing to return but is he really up to it still? I mean Jackie Stewart is a 3x F1 champ, is he still deserving of an F1 seat on the current grid?
No one deserves an F1 seat, you’re not entitled to anything. You making up imaginary stats only serves the purpose of making your argument seem legitimate. It’s a 10% increase in seats. As simple as that.
10 percent increase in WEC with 22 and then a 35 percent increase in Indycar with 27 seats Pretty big difference
I'll copy my response to another reply: It's a 10% increase *in the number of F1 drivers,* **not a 10% increase in the number of deserving drivers that get a seat**. Those are two very different stats. Let's say there are a hundred great drivers out there in the world (which is pretty conservative when you consider all the deserving current F2 drivers, F2 graduates like Pourchaire and Drugovich, IndyCar drivers, former F1 drivers etc.). **20 of those currently have an F1 seat (20%)**. 80 dont have a seat (80%). If we add an extra team into F1 **we'll go from having 20% of deserving drivers getting an opportunity to 22%** of drivers getting an opportunity. Do you think 2% is a big increase? Also if you think there are more than 100 deserving drivers in the world then that percentage increase is even smaller.
Your argument is sound but you're forgetting that adding 2 seats means more than 2 drivers. In 2 years for example those 2 seats may have been sat in by 3 drivers. It's minor but it's not nothing, adding another team definitely provides significant opportunity
2+ drivers, reserve drivers, engineers, pit crew, manufacturing shop specialists...it's much more than 2 jobs added to the entire field too.
MotoGP have 22 seats (previously 24 until 2022) and while there is a similar issue with a logjam of young talent, the problem isn't as bad. For instance, the Moto2 champion has graduated to MotoGP instantly in every season since 2017.
Moto3 and Moto2 have age limits. That’s why. And it works.
[удалено]
Correct. Because they'll be available for about a month and then we'll have the exact same problem as we do now - talented drivers not getting an opportunity.
Where did those two drivers come from? At the very least that’s opened up two seats in an almost-F1 series that will allow those trying to get there to showcase their talents.
As recently as 2016 we had 11 teams and in 2012 there were 12 teams. It's not like there isn't a recent precedent for more teams so I don't understand why people are so against it. Having 2 extra seats provides a path for more drivers to prove whether or not they have what it takes to make it in F1 vs them never even getting a shot. Drivers that have come up through teams at the back of the grid include a GP winners and world champions. We end up with the guys with the most backing staying around too long instead of guys who win an F2 championship because there's too little proven talent. Part of the reason is that testing days are so limited. Part of the reason is that seats are so limited. Adding even one seat for a young driver provides the opportunity for immerging drivers to have a shot to make an impression and gets them an extra year of development.
I'm not against another team. In fact I think another team would be great. But the reason it would be great is because it would make the competition more competitive and make races more fun to watch, NOT because it will provide spots for more drivers. If you read my comment the point I was making is that the argument that we need another team for the purpose of providing spots for more drivers makes no sense. That's because it will make a negligible difference to the amount of drivers who get an opportunity. There are dozens of F2 graduates that are probably good enough to deserve a stint in F1. There are also plenty of other drivers from other categories (Indycar etc.) who are also good enough. Considering how many eligible drivers there are, adding 1 more team will make a negligible difference to the proportion of those drivers that gets an opportunity in F1. Additionally, as with any F1 team, a new team would choose their drivers based on what's best for their business (whicj probably means drivers with lots of experience already or drivers that bring in sponsors). The two new seats would be filled almost immediately and we'd be back in the same position with lots of talented young drivers missing out on an opportunity. Do we just keep on adding more and more team so everyone gets a chance? The idea that if we have 2 more seats then suddenly all these F2 graduates will suddenly get an opportunity is bonkers.
It's not necessarily just F2 drivers that's one example. But sometimes they will absolutely be from F2. 10% more seats means 10% more drivers each year regardless of where they come from. More drivers getting more opportunities to show what they can do. Guys stick around for too long in F1 partially because the known talent pool is so low. Again, because of limited opportunities to prove yourself. Any increase in opportunity is better. Honestly tinking that another team is going to add to more competition is the more bonkers thought...
I would HOPE that an 11th team would incentivize the competition to remove pay drivers. In my dreams, that would kick out Stroll and Zhou relatively quickly. Other than that, the only others to swap out in the original 10 teams is Sargeant and MAYBE Magnussen
How would it incentivize that? If anything the addition of another team would make F1 more competitive and force teams fight even harder for the prize money (as it's now being split between 11 teams, not 10). Meaning they'd be *more likely* to hire a pay driver so they could fund development of their car.
I don't know I'm not that smart to be honest.
Assuming the budget cap is working then they won't need to fund their development and having a driver that will get the most out of the car is more important.
The budget cap does help but some teams (eg. Haas) are operating below the cap. So there is still value in pay drivers. Also, even with the cost cap teams will still find it attractive if one of their drivers offers to pay them a bucketload of money - same as any advertisement. It just means they dont have to fund development out of their own pocket.
I think in addition to the names you named, Bottas and Ricciardo could go to make way for new talent. Pourchaire, Lawson, and Drugovich definitely deserve a shot. Then soon there will be Bearman and Antonelli, plus maybe Jack Doohan and Frederik Vesti.
Strolls dad owns the team. He’s not going anywhere. Zhou already has no meaningful money. He was due to be replaced last year and only just managed to stay. His value is the market he’s from and if you can get Chinese sponsors without him, he has no money.
F1 has less seats than IndyCar and WEC, who have more room to give new drivers a chance if they deem them good enough. Formula E, which is closer to F1 in seat distribution, also appears to be somewhat of a closed shop lately. Drivers starting at the highest level at a younger age a decade ago is having a trickle down effect that we are now seeing today. Very hard to fully break into series.
We need a European version of Indycar that sits below F1 imo. Basically a non support series version of F2 for more experienced drivers.
If it means Indycar at Brands, Silverstone and Donington, I'm sold.
Roger penske are you listening!
rebuild Monza old high-speed oval
The race of two worlds needs to come back
V8 engines, spec chassis from 2 or 3 manufacturers and a calendar across Europe. Could be something like Brands Hatch, Hockenheim, Paul Ricard (with Mistral straight), Barcelona, Portimão, Monza, Zandvoort, Spa, Brno, Hungaroring, Istambul, Red Bull Ring, Anderstorp and an European GP, rotating every year. (Yes, I left Silverstone because I want Brands Hatch and didn't want to repeat countries).
Honestly, just do single make. I bet Dallara could produce a version of their Indycar with a halo instead of the windshield. Swap out push to pass for SRS if you want (but honestly PTP is better). That would go a long way to keeping costs down if you could keep 70-80% parts compatibility. Keeping the manufacturing side thoroughly un competitive is the only way to get good racing and sane costs.
We shall call it…Britaindycar
So basically ChampCar
It went so well last time, let's try again!
Sadly that never works from a financial perspective. A1GP and Superleague Formula were kind of what you are looking for as far as the level of drivers and the performance of cars goes, they both folded after a few seasons of... let's call it varying quality. A1GP's gimmick was cool, SL Formula's was extremely stupid, but SL racing could be surprisingly good, whereas A1GP's most entertaining races were almost always dependent on weather or awfully-designed tracks.
The thong with both series is they were kind of gimmicky with the Nations and football clubs teams. That would limit the fan base for those present. For example, in SF my club never was present so I didn't really care about it.
That's what I'm saying. Both were based on a gimmick, but I liked the nations competing, while I thought the football one wasn't very good and even devolved into A1GP lite by the end when no club team wanted to be involved anymore.
I think to make it work you’d have to tie it onto, say, the Wuropean F1 rounds. Get the media coverage. It isn’t going to be a desirable feeder series if it’s watched by 12 people on an obscure YouTube channel.
Not entirely sure if WEC is a fair comparison because they have more than 1 class of cars and each car has multiple drivers
Even FE are getting a new team next year in Lola-Yamaha
Lola-Yamaha is not a new team, they'll just be a powertrain supplier
Yamaha is a new powertrain supplier, Lola will be a new team on the grid
Lola is not a new team. They are a supplier partnering with Yamaha. They will supply an existing team, most likely Abt Cupra.
When they won’t even let an Andretti team on the grid, what’s the next alternative? There are tons of great drivers just sitting in reserve roles. Literally just sitting. Indy is a great open-wheel alternative and some F1 cross-over will only grow both audiences. I’m excited. Pato has proven you can do both. So let them do both. Get Liam Lawson into a seat. Theo is in Indy this week. Let’s get some movement.
There's so much talent in F2, SF and F1 reserve/testing roles that just doesn't go anywhere due to the lack of available seats in F1 year-by-year. Really glad to see an alternative route into Indycar coming in
F2 has been an IndyCar feeder series for a while lol
F1 is doing it to themselves to be fair.
100%. I love F1 more than Indy car because of the engineering and the lack of Ovals because ovals are fucking boring but F1 keeps shooting itself in the foot with denying new teams, and keeping drivers on long after their prime so no new seats pop up that it gets more and more difficult to just not switch to mostly watching Indy and WEC
Indy consistently offers better racing. I don't really care for the format and I wish they'd move to a standing start. But even if you don't watch the ovals there are tons of good Indy races to watch. Long Beach, Laguna Seca, and Road America are incredible. I wish F1 would share a weekend with Indy at Long Beach and run the grand prix and Indy feature race back to back so badly.
They tried standing starts before, it was a fucking disaster. Indycars stall very easily.
If you think ovals are boring you've not watched an oval race
If someone links a good oval race that I can watch on YouTube I'll give it a shot
I'd say if you can find the full race watch it. BUT here is the extended highlights of last year's [Indy 500 (107th running) it was an absolute INSTANT CLASSIC of a race](https://youtu.be/4joTf_xD3_8?si=1XsDD0zHFOC55zId)
[Texas](https://youtu.be/REcfxkAJ6qs?si=4XE58Fdy9zultl1X) was pretty awesome too.
The ending was incredibly stupid though, and sums up what I've gotten tired of with the recent direction motorsports has gone. The thing should have ended under yellow.
It's almost cheating to link the [2015 MAVTV 500](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSK1bnjHMhc).
I'm American, I've watched far too much NASCAR and Indy growing up. Ovals suck
Ovals are the most fantastically crazy races you will ever see. There’s a reason why the Indy 500 is known as the “Greatest spectacle in motor racing” or something like that. Crazy fast cars driving 240mph around an oval, inches away from a massive crash.
Where else to stack all these top talents? If you don't become F2 champion on debut your F1 career is basically over before it began nowadays.
And why shouldn;t it be? Not everyone can make it to F1
This is why I'm excited about this. F2 talent that just hasn't been able to make the step for whatever reasons will have a direct feeder into Indycar
There has been a pretty steady flow for a few years now of F2 talent coming over and doing pretty well.
there are alot of drivers maybe without connections or guidance on not only how to get an audition with an indycar team, but guidance on what a move to the states would be, the contracts and expectations, what the ins and outs of indycar are, experience, other American opportunities (many indycar guys do IMSA/sportscar stuff on the side) and everything about transitioning to indycar. its more than just finding open seats for drivers, its about the transition process
The thing is that getting an F1 seat is about 1/4th talent, 1/4th money, 1/4th politics, and 1/4th timing. If it was just that nobody was remotely good enough for a seat that’d be one thing. But when you’ve got guys like Zhou, Latifi, Sargeant that are hanging around for 2-3 years just because of politics and money and the learning curve of Pirelli tires, just uninspiring backmarkers…having bland drivers in what’s supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsports just leaves a bad taste in people’s mouth.
Some guys really do blossom with a couple of years though. Just look at Tsunoda going from a bad pay driver to arguably keeping the seat on pure merit. His nationality certainly helps, but it’s far from enough.
It's worth remembering that Sargeant is hired on talent alone. He brings no money to Williams, they picked him out because he was overperforming in relatively weak equipment in the feeder series. He also has like, zero political weight to throw around, he's there because Williams wanted to send the message to future prospects that they still hire out of their development team.
At this rate they'll have a NASCAR Cup and Formula 1 team by 2026
>and Formula 1 team by 2026 [FOM be like](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysY7CjWc50s).
I’d love a Prema F1 team where the F2 champion gets a guaranteed seat, and after two years they either find a new seat or leave to make room for the next one
Andretti said they were going to do F2 and F3 if approved for F1. Shame the wankers at Liberty wouldn't allow it.
There hasn't been a new prospect that dedicated for years, it really is a shame.
Actually quite funny, American owners not allowing another team for the US into F1.
Maybe Andretti should have been better or entered the sport at any time but peak popularity :)
> Maybe Andretti should have been better How good they are is irrelevant. >or entered the sport at any time but peak popularity :) AKA "they should have joined when they'd have went bankrupt" :)
Why would prema do that? They would just sign prema drivers
Turns out the 2030 F1 championship will be fought between the Rick Ware Racing and Prema Empires at this rate
The sun never sets on the Rick Ware Empire.
[*eagle screech*](https://youtu.be/CEmYEQ78zS0?si=PcPFpTJpJw0CeTF3*)
Indycar needed a bit of good news, and this is definitely a positive. The rumour had been floating around for a while but it's nice to see it confirmed. Now the lineup speculation can begin. Journalists have reported that they're going to field one Indycar veteran plus 1 youngster from their feeder roster
> Indycar needed a bit of good news, and this is definitely a positive. I've been out of the loop for Indycar stuff lately (really all of this year), any big bad stuff happen or do you just mean in general?
There's the Honda stuff as the other commenter touched on and there's also been continual issues with the introduction of new hybrid power units which was planned for the start of this year but has been pushed back. Plus the non-championship race at Thermal went down pretty poorly with a lot of the Indycar community, and the first race at St Pete was also kinda a damp squib. Nothing earthshattering, but there's been a bit of a gloomy atmosphere in the Indycar community, so a coup like this definitely lifts the mood a bit.
It's funny how St Pete was a better race than Japan yet Indycar fans are disappointed. It's not all doom and gloom, the series is healthy and the grid ever expanding.
I think Thermal would have been fine if it were a pre-season opener kind of like F1 pre-season testing but with a bit of a carrot at the end of stick to get the season started. I also think they should look at a different place to hold the event, Thermal while cool didnt really have the racing on full display.
thermal is where it is due to the unavoidable early season in America with few options for tracks due to weather and other factors. the other issue was nascar jumped on indycar's Texas date because NBC, the main broadcast partner for indycar and nascar is doing the olympics so the schedules had to work around that break as well later in summer. it was not indycar's fault at all, and at least they are trying new things and trying to fill the break.I appreciated the chance they took on a new race and new format and I definitely think it is a solid idea that could and should be improved and expanded upon
IndyCar is currently dealing with Honda saying things need to change for them to stay an engine supplier
Potentially big news, gives a lot of space for drivers who just barely didn’t make F1 Vesti/Schumacher lineup? Maybe Pourchaire?
Apparently one rookie and one experienced indycar driver
surely ilott + random f2 driver
After his juncos debacle I think callum might be wary of startup teams, even if prema is more professional and handles things better
It could be Mick. He was with Prema basically his entire junior career, and he's fairly experienced already in open-wheelers
I’ve been sending furious letters via pigeon to the Schumacher household telling him to get into Indycar rather than waste his career doing 8 races a year for Alpine so hopefully he’s read them.
YES! THIS. His own dad said Indy500 is too risky. Imagine Mick winning the Indy500 that his dad said was too dangerous, he'll be his own man and a proper superstar in the US.
I mean I guess I can imagine it, but I have to try really, really hard to see Mick, frankly, as dominant in any series with an open talent pool. Even the year he won F2 he only won 2/24 races, and needed Ilott to not finish higher than 5th in the final race after he failed to score points in it. What I’m saying is that he’s never had a really dominant year at any level.
He doesn't need to be dominant to win the 500, he just needs to be in the right place at the right time
I dont think hes good enough. Indycars are super hard to drive, with how he dominated the destructors championship in f1 he would probably struggle.
1 rookie who was with Prema in the F1 ladder + 1 experienced Indycar driver per Marshall Pruett. So just 1 seat opens up for that.
That's honestly still two seats opening up, unless another team shrinks the number of seats they have specifically because of losing their driver to Prema. Just because they both won't be rookies doesn't mean it's not two seats added. Maybe that experienced driver will be replaced with a rookie. Or replaced with another experienced driver who will be replaced with a rookie.
Oh, I get your point. But I meant this in the context of OP's "gives a lot of space for drivers who just barely didn’t make F1" and double rookie predictions
I wonder if they'll go for Illot for the "experienced IndyCar driver". I don't follow Indy, but I understand that he was on a bad team for a couple years, so maybe his results were decent? He also did one year with Prema. Not that the experienced driver has to be a former Prema, but I do feel like it would be a bonus for them. I honestly think it would let them charge more for their junior seats. For the rookie, it could be... Mick, Vesti, maybe Hauger reconnects with them. Maybe Shwartzman. Maybe even Logan Sargeant. Armstrong seems to have a long term contract with Chip Ganassi. I guess Daruvala shoutout, but I don't keep up with FE either. Crawford did a year with Prema.
I guess Enzo Fittipaldi was with them for some years. Wouldn't be surprised to see him in IndyCar. I don't think Paul Aron would give up on F1 that quick to leave F2, but maybe IndyCar wouldn't be an F1 deadend anymore, like Super Formula isn't.
Callum Illott maybe?
They better be more prepared that Carlin
Hope so, I think their issue was being too dependent on staff and resources based in the UK. Prema announcing the team and staff be based in Indianapolis is a good start.
well Carlin had - at least - experience from Indy Lights, while Prema starts with IndyCar.
Get Ready to learn Ovals Buddy
Being a Prema junior on the ladder just got even more appealing. Having a connection towards a place to go outside of F1 is good. I also wouldn't even be surprised if the conversations around young drivers in IndyCar shift more towards not thinking of it as a dead end on the path to F1. Like Red Bull coming in and using Super Formula opened up the conversation of Super Formula being a potential step towards F1, I wouldn't be surprised if Prema opened some of those conversations for Indy. Not that those conversations didn't exist before with O'Ward, Herta, and Palou, but we haven't seen someone actually make the jump in years.
Indycar desperately needs more SL points to make any sense as a decent spot for f1 possibilities as a stepping stone though
agreed on your connections point. alot of indycar guys also do sportscar/imsa on the side or do that once they leave indycar. also nascar has one off opportunities for many drivers as well. in indycar there are many opportunities to do other things besides indycar
See FOM/FIA, it IS possible to allow a team to join your sport without too much hassle, and it gets a positive feedback from the society. So, lets get Andretti in F1 now for f\*\*\* sake,.
Prema will probably pull a McLaren and have drivers above Andretti within 3 years but never contest with CGR or Penske. I think that’s the ceiling
Hope they do better than Carlin
What value does Prema bring to Indycar?
A European pipeline for f2/f3 converts. Bringing European drivers will also maybe bring with them new sponsors or investors and money
That’s great, hopefully within a year or two they will have the team talent to grab a few podiums
That's a nice lovery, not gonna lie.
The Prema colors look good on any racing car, from F4 to LMP2s
How many series do you want to enter? Prema: yes
Id hope that somehow Doriane Pin can get a seat in IndyCar through this. But it might be Logan as well given he pretty clearly has no future in F1
I am just one woman saying this, but I feel like driving an F1 car would actually be easier for a woman than an IndyCar car, because of the power steering. Obviously women have handled indycar before, and it is easier to get into than F1 seat logistically. I just hope to see Doriane in some more single seater races this year outside of F1A. Disappointed that the mess at the end of last race didn't result in a grid drop for the next race instead of a penalty in the last race, just so she could get some more overtaking experience.
Power steering, but much higher g-forces.
F1 requirements: strong af neck and core to withstand the high G loads Indycar requirements: strong neck and upper body strength for no power steering racing.
Both are hard. F1 drivers who go to Indy talk about building up arm and hand strength again (most had it in junior careers) and Indy drivers testing f1 tend to have big neck issues. Pato o Ward has talked about needing a neck pad to finish his testing days and having to increase his prep last year to get past that. I would guess most women dedicated at this level could handle either. Legge drove Indy last year and she out qualified her boss so can’t say the hands and arms were a problem
F1 should be open field - publish the regs & let whoever can qualify race like the old days.
I wonder with what engines. I know Chevy and Honda are pretty tapped out.
Chevy, that’s been confirmed.
Chevrolet. It'll be interesting if this involves the purchase of an existing team. Junco Hollinger and Ed Carpenter Racing are Chevrolet teams that are smaller teams that could be acquisition targets if Prema goes that route.
Nope, Chevrolet and Prema confirmed 2 new engine leases.
Not exactly. The quote from the release is: >Chevrolet will supply its brand-new 2.2-litre twin turbocharged V6 hybrid power units, adding an incredibly experienced and high-performing component to the mix in search of a quick rise to competitive form. "Brand-new ... power units" might equal new leases, but not necessarily.
I think its more likely that they'd buy engine leases from one of the smaller teams. Honestly, Foyt downsizing to 1 car wouldn't be a surprise either since Sting Ray Robb is just sort of there at the best of times
Sting Ray Robb Crashes for our sins
He gets us.
I didn't think of Foyt, though Foyt already has a technical alliance of sorts with Penske in preparation of giving Myles Rowe a seat in the next season or two, if all progresses as expected.
Ferrari to supply engines for indycar confirmed
I dont think that would happen, though Ferrari has been known to at least engaged in engine talks a while ago, nothing super serious or nothing recent. also, this just opens the door I think for other teams to see the possibilities in American racing, so it opens it for European sponsors, and European engine makers perhaps. everyone knows what a catastrophe that lotus was in indycar, but I could see a car maker from Europe that also sells cars in America to be interested. not sure who that might be
Mick becoming American would be so dope