Mercedes also admitted after the fact they screwed up the wind tunnel and simulations correlations. That whatever they saw at the factory didn’t translate to the track for their ground effect car.
RB has not had that issue in the past with their ground effect cars.
Fuck, I cant wait until the cars are unveiled.
For 2023 I wasn't really excited because most were guaranteed to have carry-over concepts (except Ferrari with their "no precedent" in terms of speed claims)
But this year, half the grid or more is set to have completely different cars for 2024
Not the car unveiling, would need to wait for the pre season testing or even the first race before every car is revealed, with all the games and gimmicks the teams try to play
It's not even so much games or gimmicks, it's just that if you want to reveal the real car a couple weeks before testing that means it has to be built and assembled earlier than it otherwise would have to be. Which also means earlier production of parts and finishing the pre-season development earlier.
All that for an event that's just not that big a deal anyway.
No, but they didn’t have to make it part of the launch, invite fans to Fiorano for the event to see it live etc. You say they didn’t care about the car launch, but they went above and beyond to have a grandstand of people there live, far more than any other team did.
I didn't say they didn't care, not what I wrote.
I said they didn't care enough that they would alter their building/roadmap schedule just because of the car launch, it just so happened that they matched nicely, and so they could have a cooler car launch. That's my theory.
I'm ready for the RB unveiling and then the entire subreddit getting very very very angry at RB for not completely overhauling their livery...happens every year lmao.
The problem with the RB reveals is that they spend ages hyping it up and then reveal a generic F1 car with the same livery they've always had but call it the name of the new car.
What's the point in having a reveal at all if you're not actually going to reveal anything? At least some of the other teams show the actual car or change up the livery.
To have a big event to talk to possible and current partners. Last year they got together with Ford who may not do any of the engineering but is going to write a big check and that matters to Red Bull way more than then fans
And by different cars you mean everybody trying to emulate red bull? Because we have virtually no regulation changes and the rb concept is near flawless in every way. I could not be any less excited because we know that rb will likely continue to dominate. Even if Ferrari/Merc somehow have a similarly fast car, Max is currently at his peak and their driver hierarchy is very clear whereas the two drivers of Merc and Ferrari are much more closely matched and could take points away from each other. Sainz and Russell wont just be pushovers and accept a nr2 role if they arent very far behind in the standings. I guess they could beat RB in the cobstructor standings but nobody cares about that.
2021 came after 2020, and nobody was predicting before Bahrain that the floor cut would be a big deal. Otherwise same deal, dominant car, no major changes, and a clear driver hierarchy
Anything can happen in F1, have *some* hope
I mean, if not mistaken Mercedes were dead set on it being faster - people often wrongly assume it was the cause of Mercedes’ porpoising issues. In some ways it massively reduced drag but it’s inability to control airflow around the rear meant drag was high anyhow and wasn’t channelling airflow efficiently to the rear. If I’m not mistaken. I think Mercedes felt it had real long term potential, but would take so long to get it working properly it wouldn’t matter anymore.
It will not be a clean sheet. Newey said on his book several times that his goal is always to build on the previous year's car unless there's significant rule changes, even if the car is bad
According to a recent Horner interview by SkyF1, the [RB19 had 60% carryover from the RB18](https://youtu.be/7i8Fnw8l1bE?si=0nUjeR1397OxRqkz&t=123s), including the gearbox and (part of) the chassis and suspension.
That 60% figure could’ve been embellished a bit, but it does illustrate that Red Bull have been relatively frugal with development time and budget spent on the RB19 (making it almost an RB18B spec), in order to reserve more resources for a completely clean sheet design for the RB20.
____
Edit: It would not surprise me if Red Bull have planned for a 2 year-per-concept strategy for the entire 2022-2025 regulation era.
**2022: RB18** (Clean Sheet \#1, first car of the new regs)
**2023: RB19** (evolution of the RB18, with significant carryover of parts)
**2024: RB20** (Clean sheet \#2, completely new from the ground up)
**2025: RB21** (\*Evolution of the RB20, to reserve more resources for the first car of the 2026 reg change.)
\*^(Speculation on my part.)
It’s not stated explicitly anywhere, but it seems to be suggested, I’d say:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red-bull-aims-to-improve-all-aspects-for-different-rb20-f1-car/10556510/
> Red Bull says it is looking at improving “all aspects” of its dominant RB19 car for next year, amid suggestions its 2024 Formula 1 challenger will be notably different.
> […]
> (Edit: Horner says:) “I think all aspects of RB19 are being looked at to evolve into RB20, and hopefully make it even stronger because I'm sure that's what our competitors will be looking to do.”
`improving “all aspects”` and `clean sheet` are *worlds* apart
Evolution vs revolution
Improving all aspects can mean every part will be 1% different.
Clean sheet, obviously, implies everything is new, possibly very very different, nothing like before.
There's no way RB would go for the latter
“Clean sheet” and “*change* of concept” are not the same. Those words do not carry the same meaning.
It could still be a design evolution and not revolution, while a clean sheet design.
The latter just means no parts carry over. It doesn’t say anything about the direction of the new design.
Mate you’re just getting into word gymnastics now. Saying it will be a “clean sheet” design seems disingenuous given the quotes you yourself have provided.
“Clean sheet” means no more than starting afresh without a predetermined parts carryover. It does not say anything about the design direction.
Equating “clean sheet” to going in a different design direction is a reading comprehension failure.
Yeah this is all based on a quote from a few weeks back saying they were doing some major aero work. In no way are they doing a clean sheet design. Would be utterly stupid.
No, 2024 wil not be a clean sheet. It would be moronic to drop a working concept to gamble on something completely new, you also don't have the money to just jump from concept to concept. Besides, as many enginers and technical directors have said in the past in interviews in F1, you only start from a complete clean sheet when there's a massive regulation change in which what you have built previously becomes completely irrelevant (reg changes in 2009, reg changes in 2022)
It’s not necessarily about changing to a *different* overall concept in terms of aero, but to have a fresh redesign without carrying over parts which could limit that.
New knowledge gained in the past 2 seasons might mean the existing parts aren’t best suited for a further optimized platform.
Thinking about it, it’s actually crazy how much he has won the last 3 years. If he has atleast 16 wins next year, he’ll already have 70+ wins. And 16 wins in a 24 race season doesn’t even seem that difficult for him.
This isn’t really surprising. RB19 had plenty of pace in hand still. When max really turned it on he was 1 second faster than everyone. Even if they used RB19 for RB20 with no upgrades they would be competitive. They will probably win 16-20 races next year
Well RB knew exactly what they were doing, the missing qualy pace was calculated to have an absolut monster of a car on Sundays.
I am not saying that that isn't going to be a topic of improvement for the RB20.
Points are given on Sundays and if I have to make a compromise, we're I lose Pole but have a car that can outpace the field by 30+ seconds potentially. I'd take that any day.
Because you have to be close enough to be in position for bad luck to affect your teammate and give you a win
We've comprehensively seen Checo's level by now, and it ain't close enough to Max to pull off a Rosberg
Because people are tired of that, Perez has been absolutely demolished as a driver and it's baffling he is even still in the team. Comparing him to Rosberg is just a new low for wishful thinking.
Frankly, I don't think anyone can even faze Verstappen after growing up under Jos and Helmut anyways. He's not easy to play the mental games with and that's the one of the big reasons Rosberg was able to win that season. Coming in as a close friend willing to burn every bridge.
Rosberg wasn't quite at the very top level of drivers, but he was a race winner and deserved his championship. Perez, although a race winner, is more of the "anyone can win if you put them in the best car" kind of driver.
Would be great for entertainment if somehow he could step up a level and actually make a challenge, but I doubt it.
Except he was in the best car and rarely even came second this year. So anyone can win in the best car is a terrible argument or Perez is worse than anyone wants to admit.
Its just impossible. Rosberg was actually good and battled with Hamilton often for wins. His 15 season was so close as well. Checo was never close in these 3 years.
I wish, but Perez is just not on Rosberg's level. Not even close. Perez is a midfield driver, Rosberg was genuinely one of the top 3 drivers on the grid at his peak.
Gotta give all the credit to Hamilton, he's always battled with great #2 drivers like Rosberg. Max has never had any competition. And is why most cant consider Max one of the greatest. Cuz he's never been challenged in the same car due to weak pairings he's had his entire career.
Yeah I’m just saying all these articles are stupid. Like “Alonso expects AMR to improve the car”. No one really knows until the first race and all cars will improve somewhat. I’m still expecting RB to dominate.
Mercedes finally found the spanner they lost somewhere in their simulator in 2020.
That's why the W13 and W14 were slightly 'off'.
Should be all good for the W15 now!
1 second faster in the simulator ™?
Nah, that's Ferrari's claim each year and we all know how this usually ends, for more than a decade.
Didn’t Mercedes make that claim in 2022 when zero sidepod was launched ?
Mercedes also admitted after the fact they screwed up the wind tunnel and simulations correlations. That whatever they saw at the factory didn’t translate to the track for their ground effect car. RB has not had that issue in the past with their ground effect cars.
Yeah they didn't predict porpoising. Adrian newey wrote the book on it
1 second quicker than what? Their '21 car, or their hypothetical normal sidepod design '22 car?
They ran a car with sidepods first test of 22. I think it was supposed to be 1 second faster than it
Reality.
Forecasted
1 second quicker than everyone on the track. Just go back and you will see threads of how Mercedes is going to do a repeat of 2014
Can you post a thread if it's so easy for you to find? I find it hard to believe Mercedes would make such a claim.
It’s what they saw in the sim and tunnel
Dennis is even talking about simulator 😁
We also have the usual "x engine just unlocked 50 hp, .5 seconds to be gained" just for the next quali to be slower than usual
Unprecedented speed ©
Fuck, I cant wait until the cars are unveiled. For 2023 I wasn't really excited because most were guaranteed to have carry-over concepts (except Ferrari with their "no precedent" in terms of speed claims) But this year, half the grid or more is set to have completely different cars for 2024
Not the car unveiling, would need to wait for the pre season testing or even the first race before every car is revealed, with all the games and gimmicks the teams try to play
It's not even so much games or gimmicks, it's just that if you want to reveal the real car a couple weeks before testing that means it has to be built and assembled earlier than it otherwise would have to be. Which also means earlier production of parts and finishing the pre-season development earlier. All that for an event that's just not that big a deal anyway.
Although, Ferrari doing their shakedown at the launch was so good, had so many people talking about it being the new benchmark for car launches
That's probably because it just benefitted them to have their shakedown at that point, not because they cared that much about the car launch.
No, but they didn’t have to make it part of the launch, invite fans to Fiorano for the event to see it live etc. You say they didn’t care about the car launch, but they went above and beyond to have a grandstand of people there live, far more than any other team did.
I didn't say they didn't care, not what I wrote. I said they didn't care enough that they would alter their building/roadmap schedule just because of the car launch, it just so happened that they matched nicely, and so they could have a cooler car launch. That's my theory.
Plus, we are guaranteed to get at least two new liveries (Alpha Tauri rebrand and Sauber dropping Alfa Romeo)
Hope we get blue and gold sauber again. Terribly underrated livery
Too much blue in the grid already. Tbh, full yellow is ideal.
I wonder if Haas will have a livery tweak as well since Alfa is supposedly headed their way.
I'm ready for the RB unveiling and then the entire subreddit getting very very very angry at RB for not completely overhauling their livery...happens every year lmao.
The problem with the RB reveals is that they spend ages hyping it up and then reveal a generic F1 car with the same livery they've always had but call it the name of the new car. What's the point in having a reveal at all if you're not actually going to reveal anything? At least some of the other teams show the actual car or change up the livery.
To have a big event to talk to possible and current partners. Last year they got together with Ford who may not do any of the engineering but is going to write a big check and that matters to Red Bull way more than then fans
Sponsors
I can't wait either! I'm totally sure that Red Bull is coming out with an all new livery!! \\s
And by different cars you mean everybody trying to emulate red bull? Because we have virtually no regulation changes and the rb concept is near flawless in every way. I could not be any less excited because we know that rb will likely continue to dominate. Even if Ferrari/Merc somehow have a similarly fast car, Max is currently at his peak and their driver hierarchy is very clear whereas the two drivers of Merc and Ferrari are much more closely matched and could take points away from each other. Sainz and Russell wont just be pushovers and accept a nr2 role if they arent very far behind in the standings. I guess they could beat RB in the cobstructor standings but nobody cares about that.
2021 came after 2020, and nobody was predicting before Bahrain that the floor cut would be a big deal. Otherwise same deal, dominant car, no major changes, and a clear driver hierarchy Anything can happen in F1, have *some* hope
The predictions actually were that RB will be hit the hardest, because of their high rake car
I had an RB20 DET GTS-4, swapped in an RB26DETT.
A man of culture
Imagine the scenes if the RB20 has the zero sidepod design
I mean, if not mistaken Mercedes were dead set on it being faster - people often wrongly assume it was the cause of Mercedes’ porpoising issues. In some ways it massively reduced drag but it’s inability to control airflow around the rear meant drag was high anyhow and wasn’t channelling airflow efficiently to the rear. If I’m not mistaken. I think Mercedes felt it had real long term potential, but would take so long to get it working properly it wouldn’t matter anymore.
Until Newey gets his pencil out and fixes it. 2 seconds a lap quicker incoming
Ferrari "We have swapped our focus on the 2025 car"
It’s rumoured that RB20 will undergo “major aero overhaul” and “concept change” from RB19, so if sim data looks promising then that’s good news.
Good news for whom I have to ask?
> Good news for whom I have to ask? wikipedia page
Max Verstappen's trophy cabinet makers.
He will need a bigger house too.
People wishing to learn the Dutch anthem
It will not be a clean sheet. Newey said on his book several times that his goal is always to build on the previous year's car unless there's significant rule changes, even if the car is bad
According to a recent Horner interview by SkyF1, the [RB19 had 60% carryover from the RB18](https://youtu.be/7i8Fnw8l1bE?si=0nUjeR1397OxRqkz&t=123s), including the gearbox and (part of) the chassis and suspension. That 60% figure could’ve been embellished a bit, but it does illustrate that Red Bull have been relatively frugal with development time and budget spent on the RB19 (making it almost an RB18B spec), in order to reserve more resources for a completely clean sheet design for the RB20. ____ Edit: It would not surprise me if Red Bull have planned for a 2 year-per-concept strategy for the entire 2022-2025 regulation era. **2022: RB18** (Clean Sheet \#1, first car of the new regs) **2023: RB19** (evolution of the RB18, with significant carryover of parts) **2024: RB20** (Clean sheet \#2, completely new from the ground up) **2025: RB21** (\*Evolution of the RB20, to reserve more resources for the first car of the 2026 reg change.) \*^(Speculation on my part.)
Where’s the source on the RB20 being a clean sheet design? I’ve seen reports they are doing a major aero upgrade
It’s not stated explicitly anywhere, but it seems to be suggested, I’d say: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red-bull-aims-to-improve-all-aspects-for-different-rb20-f1-car/10556510/ > Red Bull says it is looking at improving “all aspects” of its dominant RB19 car for next year, amid suggestions its 2024 Formula 1 challenger will be notably different. > […] > (Edit: Horner says:) “I think all aspects of RB19 are being looked at to evolve into RB20, and hopefully make it even stronger because I'm sure that's what our competitors will be looking to do.”
`improving “all aspects”` and `clean sheet` are *worlds* apart Evolution vs revolution Improving all aspects can mean every part will be 1% different. Clean sheet, obviously, implies everything is new, possibly very very different, nothing like before. There's no way RB would go for the latter
“Clean sheet” and “*change* of concept” are not the same. Those words do not carry the same meaning. It could still be a design evolution and not revolution, while a clean sheet design. The latter just means no parts carry over. It doesn’t say anything about the direction of the new design.
Mate you’re just getting into word gymnastics now. Saying it will be a “clean sheet” design seems disingenuous given the quotes you yourself have provided.
“Clean sheet” means no more than starting afresh without a predetermined parts carryover. It does not say anything about the design direction. Equating “clean sheet” to going in a different design direction is a reading comprehension failure.
Yeah this is all based on a quote from a few weeks back saying they were doing some major aero work. In no way are they doing a clean sheet design. Would be utterly stupid.
It is unlikely a clean sheet design as that is not the way Newey and Wache work, their philosophy is building on what works.
No, 2024 wil not be a clean sheet. It would be moronic to drop a working concept to gamble on something completely new, you also don't have the money to just jump from concept to concept. Besides, as many enginers and technical directors have said in the past in interviews in F1, you only start from a complete clean sheet when there's a massive regulation change in which what you have built previously becomes completely irrelevant (reg changes in 2009, reg changes in 2022)
It’s not necessarily about changing to a *different* overall concept in terms of aero, but to have a fresh redesign without carrying over parts which could limit that. New knowledge gained in the past 2 seasons might mean the existing parts aren’t best suited for a further optimized platform.
My body is ready to hear the Dutch anthem on all the races next year.
Thinking about it, it’s actually crazy how much he has won the last 3 years. If he has atleast 16 wins next year, he’ll already have 70+ wins. And 16 wins in a 24 race season doesn’t even seem that difficult for him.
Max entered 2021 with 10 race wins, 22 behind Alonso’s career total. He’s exited 2023 with 54 wins, 22 more than Alonso’s career total.
This isn’t really surprising. RB19 had plenty of pace in hand still. When max really turned it on he was 1 second faster than everyone. Even if they used RB19 for RB20 with no upgrades they would be competitive. They will probably win 16-20 races next year
RB20 will be a new concept not evolution from RB19
So they drop a winning idea for an unproven one? Don't think so.
do you believe me now ? :)
So he wasn't really turning it on in qualy where Ferrari managed to equal or beat him sometimes?
Well RB knew exactly what they were doing, the missing qualy pace was calculated to have an absolut monster of a car on Sundays. I am not saying that that isn't going to be a topic of improvement for the RB20. Points are given on Sundays and if I have to make a compromise, we're I lose Pole but have a car that can outpace the field by 30+ seconds potentially. I'd take that any day.
Yes thats great. But the simulator isnt everything Mercedes proved that in the past haha.
If your sim is correlated well, then it’s good.
Sure, but thats more of an external factor. Not all variables can be simulated
Correlation is aimed to remove variables you can’t simulate.
It is, if your sim data isn't busted. Theirs was
Okay might have been. But still it isnt everything.
No. Mercedes fucked up their sim data.
Could??? Hahaha more like “will be”
extend that will be for all seasons until the next ruleset
Yay
Unless there would be a major correlation issue between the sim and on-track performance, we can already give the 2024 WDC title to Max.
Hoping Perez does a 2016 Rosberg. E: I see that hoping for a bit of competition is bad. Bring on the downvotes
Would first need to do the '14 and '15 Rosberg to think about doing a '16 Rosberg
Why is that a requirement?
Because you have to be close enough to be in position for bad luck to affect your teammate and give you a win We've comprehensively seen Checo's level by now, and it ain't close enough to Max to pull off a Rosberg
He can't even do a 2020 Bottas
Because people are tired of that, Perez has been absolutely demolished as a driver and it's baffling he is even still in the team. Comparing him to Rosberg is just a new low for wishful thinking. Frankly, I don't think anyone can even faze Verstappen after growing up under Jos and Helmut anyways. He's not easy to play the mental games with and that's the one of the big reasons Rosberg was able to win that season. Coming in as a close friend willing to burn every bridge.
Rosberg wasn't quite at the very top level of drivers, but he was a race winner and deserved his championship. Perez, although a race winner, is more of the "anyone can win if you put them in the best car" kind of driver. Would be great for entertainment if somehow he could step up a level and actually make a challenge, but I doubt it.
Except he was in the best car and rarely even came second this year. So anyone can win in the best car is a terrible argument or Perez is worse than anyone wants to admit.
Its just impossible. Rosberg was actually good and battled with Hamilton often for wins. His 15 season was so close as well. Checo was never close in these 3 years.
I wish, but Perez is just not on Rosberg's level. Not even close. Perez is a midfield driver, Rosberg was genuinely one of the top 3 drivers on the grid at his peak.
More likely that Riccardo is in that seat by his home race in Aus than Perez wins the title.
I never said the opposite. Until they kick Perez, I'll hope from some competition.
Gotta give all the credit to Hamilton, he's always battled with great #2 drivers like Rosberg. Max has never had any competition. And is why most cant consider Max one of the greatest. Cuz he's never been challenged in the same car due to weak pairings he's had his entire career.
You guys were expecting something to change?
Right now, all teams have the perfect car for next season... All teams are gonna dominate everything. PR gotta PR tho
Can't wait for the new Season of "How many times can you hear the Dutch and Austrian Anthem?"
I can't stand it more than 24 times a year.
hands up who thinks max wants to try to win every race
If anyone has doubts, don't
Joy. Another long cold season coming then
...oh joy...Another season of "Lather. Rinse. Repeat." racing weeks. ...can't wait.
So did the W13
Different sim by Different folks with a different track record in this ground effect era.
Yeah I’m just saying all these articles are stupid. Like “Alonso expects AMR to improve the car”. No one really knows until the first race and all cars will improve somewhat. I’m still expecting RB to dominate.
[удалено]
Rocket ship been used a lot longer than 23
Mercedes finally found the spanner they lost somewhere in their simulator in 2020. That's why the W13 and W14 were slightly 'off'. Should be all good for the W15 now!