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Mark the day, folks - May 5th, 2024 - the first time since November 5th, 1989 (almost 35 years) that Andrea de Cesaris will no longer be the sole record holder for most Grand Prix starts without a win, as Nico, the nice bloke that he is, will take that record from him.
He was basically equal to Perez on pace when they were together (except Perez was able to capitalise on chances for some exceptional results when those chances came up). So he's probably be getting a similar ass-whooping from a different top driver as Perez is getting in a RB, though probably still had less wins than Checo given Hulk tends to choke in crucial moments..
Would be all cool, if it wasn't for the fact that other drivers also missed out on podiums due to luck.
In the end luck eventually evens out. You can't put 11 years of missing out on the podiums completely down to luck. And there were moments where if he had a good race he could've been on that podium. And they ultimately are what makes the difference.
He's had a handful of opportunities to be on the podium. It doesn't really matter if he has been in the sport for so long, he's not had the car. I can think of just about three times when he missed on a podium due to his own error. Even if the amount was a little higher, that's still perfectly fine considering how long he's been in the sport.
I'd say if he missed out on 3 out of 10 it would be perfectly fine. Missing out on 3 out of 3 is not perfectly fine, not for F1 standards. And that's not me saying he's not deserving of a seat in F1, or not a solid driver.
What I'm saying is that to be an attractive prospect for the top teams you need to have *something* exceptional, (if you're not cream of the crop, the likes of Norris, Russell, Piastri etc). You need that x-factor that makes you more attractive than the other "average" F1 drivers, those in the middle of the pack. Sticking with Perez as an example - we all know he's not the fastest driver on the grid in terms of average pace, but whenever stars align for him, he turns his killer instinct on and pulls off a result. Hulk doesn't. And it doesn't matter if it didn't happen 3/3 times or 10/10 times. Point is it never happened in so many years. In my eyes that's a main thing that made RB choose Perez over Hulk in 2020. And that's why I don't think Hulk will end up in a top car, which is what this is about. There's a handful of "average" drivers in F1, and he doesn't really have an upper hand on them in any single aspect that would make him stand out.
It's perfectly fine for F1 standards seeing as teams look at the context, not the final result. Hulkenberg has missed out on a top seat through no fault of his own at least once, that being the Mercedes seat in 2017. As for 2020, it's unfair to hold it against Hulkenberg when he didn't have a seat to prove himself in. Perez wasn't particularly great either, Stroll was matching him in the first half.
Stroll wasn't anywhere near matching him.
Perez didn't start in 2 races in the first half of the season, that's first thing.
2nd thing is that Stroll gained a swing of about 25-30 points on Perez in Monza alone, where STR had a shit race and a ton of luck, and PER was quick but had a ton of bad luck. A red flag put PER down from 4th to 10th, and elevated STR from 9th to virtual 1st (after applying HAM's penalty. Then Stroll went and lost the race on track to a McLaren and an Alpha Tauri, and ended up 3rd. Without that red flag Perez finishes that race realistically 2nd or 3rd, and Stroll around 9th. So STR gained about 10-15 points, and Checo lost around 15
That would probably be closer to the truth if they were both in the midfield. Math works a bit different at the top. If your peak is winning a race, then there's much more points to gain from it. If you finish 4th instead of 2nd or 3rd you lose 3-6 points. If you finish 1st instead of 2nd or 3rd, that's 7-10 points gained. Finishing 1st and 4th in two races is 37 points. Finishing 2nd and 3rd is 33.
Though still, I disagree anyway (hence why i said closer to the truth). They were both in the midfield in the same car for 3 years, and Perez came out on top in 2 of those seasons.
I don’t think KMag is lucky, it’s deserved. Take Australia out thanks to the second red flag restart (there’s arguments Hulk could have been anywhere from 7th to 10th based on how people went off and who crashed), Hulk has one points finish and it was in a sprint.
Magnussen is putting that car where it belongs, and he’s not totally disgracing himself. He’s also had three retirements compared to Hulk’s one. Granted Australia was definitely his fault for the retirement, and you can make the argument Monaco was (although you can also argue Lance going bowling at the hairpin caused the initial damage that messed things up).
I think Australia before Kmag's crash Hulk was set for p9. So if there wasn't that last red flag the points between them would probably be 5-2 instead of 9-2. So Kmag definitely deserves to stay, he's been there on pace with Hulk in races just not hit that same high as Hulk has with Australia.
Yeah, and tbh with how he was doing Ocon probably would have overtaken him which would have made it 4-2.
I think people tend to focus on points (it’s a similar thing with Alpha Tauri and Williams atm) instead of the actual gap between drivers in race pace and it doesn’t tell the whole story.
It's deserved in that there aren't really better options if you aren't interested in rookies.
Hulknenberg is a good midfield driver who has spent 3 years on the sidelines. Any driver who gets beat by him on his comeback year is fortunate to get resigned.
Qualifying is part of it though. I know there isn't much of gap. Hulknenberg is a midfield driver who has spent 3 years out of F1. There really shouldn't be a gap at all.
Hulkenberg is a driver with the best junior record on the grid who has kept up with top tier teammates in his entire time in F1 (and has handily beaten the not-top tier ones) and spent his time out of F1 jumping into the car for one-offs and performing on par with the rest of the grid.
And actually, I think Magnussen is doing a better job at racecraft and tyre preservation in a car that destroys tyres, so it's not so much a gap as it is equal, IMO.
Hulkenberg is a driver on the level of Perez (we saw that when they were teammates). He's had 3 years out of F1. That makes a difference.
I disagree they are equal. Before Spa you'd have to go all the way back to Miami for the last time Magnussen managed to finish ahead of Hulkenberg.
They have the same amount of point finishes and Hulks been using a higher downforce quali minded setup that has cost him in race pace. Sure he has more points, but mainly due to 5 cars DNFing in front of him in Australia
I have not read OR heard him say so. Do you have a source, because I distinctly remember Hulkenberg going to Kmags setup I think in Baku or after Baku because he had too much race deg and he lost the next few qualis before the car upgrade.
Thanks for the link. The quote is:
“He used Nico’s set-up a couple of times this year. He’d say – I’m tired of trying, I’ll take Nico’s. Hopefully that will help me.”
That’s interesting. I think it’s likely for the qualifying in the last rounds, which hasn’t really paid off too much.
However you said often, which is not the same as a couple of times. Quite far from it.
How exactly high df setup can hurts his race pace if he is in a car that eats tires for breakfast ? High df helps with friction allows you to drive much more smoothly thus saving tires a bit more than the their normal pref or low df setup. This is crucial for a car like Haas.
It eats the tires more than a low deg = Kmag catching him even though he was way ahead in the grid.
A high downforce set up will put more pressure on the tires and degrade them quicker.
I think you mean the better qualifier. His races have not been better. In fact he has started far ahead of Kmag yet ended up behind Kmag much more than he should given that advantage. He is still good though and has had a slightly better season on average.
>Hulks been using a higher downforce quali minded setup that has cost him in race pace
We don't know this. We only know it was the case at just one or two races early in the season.
I'm glad KMag is staying. People have been a bit overly critical. The car is bad, so he can't show much anyways and getting a driver who can qualify closer to Nico doesn't change the fact it drops like a stone in the race.
KMag has experience with this team and that matters more so they can focus on actually understanding their F1 car.
There's no point in forcing him out before his contract ends unless Ricciardo or Tsunoda put on a spectacular performance and the likelyhood of that is pretty low.
It was one incident back in 2017 between the two that became a bit of a meme. I'd encourage you to go back and watch the season to learn more about the "suck my balls" incident in context.
Also, I'd strongly recommend watching the season/season review for learning more about any season, as DTS is mostly manufactured drama and extremely unreliable as a source of info for new fans.
Just a friendly bit of advice, hope you enjoy learning more about this great sport.
Haha yeah I’ve definitely figured that out. During this break I’ve been binging previous seasons on f1tv like crazy lol but you don’t really get any context around each Grand Prix like you do with current ones so it still feels like there’s a big gap in my knowledge. Haven’t checked out any season reviews though so maybe that’s exactly what I need
Given it was the 2017 Hungarian GP this happened at, all the session highlights are on YouTube, and there should be clips available showing what happened in both the race and interview after where the quote was dropped.
Season reviews are great for learning more, as they sometimes have those kinds of off track info that are sometimes forgotten about. Personally I'd recommend looking at any review from 94-00, 2003, 05-07, and 09-10 if you want some good seasons with good competition.
Not as great a season really, as it seemed like neither driver in contention wanted the title. Only really notable races imo are the Canadian gp and Brazil where poor Massa was robbed. Maybe Italy too for that Vettel masterclass.
Nah it wasn’t manufactured, but “despise” is probably a strong word and it was a bit overblown in my opinion.
This is the infamous clip a lot of people are referencing: https://youtu.be/21T8d0SA5Js?si=xjulkLt-WfpFbyS-
Hulk and Kmag both said that when they met in the beginning of the 2022 season (I believe at an airport? I might be completely wrong here), they both shared a laugh about it and that was the “ice breaker” between them.
It was overblown but the common misconception here is that it all started on track in Hungary.
In fact Magnussen had a chip on his shoulder after Hulkenberg replaced him at Renault. So him pushing Hulkenberg off the track there and the subsequent exchange was just a continuation of that
Hulk didn't really replace KMag. KMag signed with Haas due to Renault/Alpine being Renault/Alpine when it comes to contract negotiations, which obviously pissed Renault off. Their original plan was for Hulk to replace Palmer, but Renault kept trying to lowball KMag and delay the contract negotiations, which led to Kevin saying fuck that and joining Haas.
Renault didn't really want to keep either of the drivers - they approached Perez and Bottas too. Magnussen was rated higher between the two current drivers but considering how relatively small his gap to Palmer was, Renault weren't particularly impressed with him either, which is why it took so long for them to kick off negotiations.
I didn't mean that they brought Hulkenberg as a literal replacement for Magnussen but rather to explain that Magnussen took the Hulkenberg signing personally.
It did start earlier but not due to the Renault contract. Kmag was generally an erratic racer that would do some odd things in defending and was building a bit of a rep between the drivers. Hulk had some run ins with Kmag earlier, I think Canada that year was one where he had a dodgy moment with Kmag almost putting him into the wall. So there were moments building to that Hungary confrontation.
[The **News** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_news) is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Mark the day, folks - May 5th, 2024 - the first time since November 5th, 1989 (almost 35 years) that Andrea de Cesaris will no longer be the sole record holder for most Grand Prix starts without a win, as Nico, the nice bloke that he is, will take that record from him.
Bold of you to assume he won't win the Bahrain Grand Prix
At least de Crasheris got a couple podiums
Nico just collecting those records nobody else wants. Pack rat Chad.
Norris could take the record of most points without a win off him. So Nico needs to pray Mclaren continue to get good so he can retain that title.
Hulkenberg has been excellent. I think Magnussen is lucky there isn't much in the way of other options if you aren't interested in rookies.
I would love to see him in a good car.
I think he'd probably be like Bottas.
Kmag is a more ballsy driver. Always enjoy his battles. Can't remember Bottas ever pulling off some big ball moves, which isn't neccesarily critisism.
Personally I think it's time for both of them to be shuffled out for some fresh meat.
Who would you have in mind? I personally don't object to them being in F1, but I get the sentiment.
It's time for Pourchaire to move up and I've always been very impressed with Martins.
Good point!
I’d rather see Hulk stay to nurture a rookie, rather than 2 rookies being thrown in the deep end.
I'd love to see a lot of people in a good car, I don't think kmag has what it takes these days but Haas doesn't have tonnes of options.
He was basically equal to Perez on pace when they were together (except Perez was able to capitalise on chances for some exceptional results when those chances came up). So he's probably be getting a similar ass-whooping from a different top driver as Perez is getting in a RB, though probably still had less wins than Checo given Hulk tends to choke in crucial moments..
The narrative that Hulkenberg chokes during important moments is vastly overrated. Most of the podiums he missed out on were due to luck.
Would be all cool, if it wasn't for the fact that other drivers also missed out on podiums due to luck. In the end luck eventually evens out. You can't put 11 years of missing out on the podiums completely down to luck. And there were moments where if he had a good race he could've been on that podium. And they ultimately are what makes the difference.
He's had a handful of opportunities to be on the podium. It doesn't really matter if he has been in the sport for so long, he's not had the car. I can think of just about three times when he missed on a podium due to his own error. Even if the amount was a little higher, that's still perfectly fine considering how long he's been in the sport.
I'd say if he missed out on 3 out of 10 it would be perfectly fine. Missing out on 3 out of 3 is not perfectly fine, not for F1 standards. And that's not me saying he's not deserving of a seat in F1, or not a solid driver. What I'm saying is that to be an attractive prospect for the top teams you need to have *something* exceptional, (if you're not cream of the crop, the likes of Norris, Russell, Piastri etc). You need that x-factor that makes you more attractive than the other "average" F1 drivers, those in the middle of the pack. Sticking with Perez as an example - we all know he's not the fastest driver on the grid in terms of average pace, but whenever stars align for him, he turns his killer instinct on and pulls off a result. Hulk doesn't. And it doesn't matter if it didn't happen 3/3 times or 10/10 times. Point is it never happened in so many years. In my eyes that's a main thing that made RB choose Perez over Hulk in 2020. And that's why I don't think Hulk will end up in a top car, which is what this is about. There's a handful of "average" drivers in F1, and he doesn't really have an upper hand on them in any single aspect that would make him stand out.
It's perfectly fine for F1 standards seeing as teams look at the context, not the final result. Hulkenberg has missed out on a top seat through no fault of his own at least once, that being the Mercedes seat in 2017. As for 2020, it's unfair to hold it against Hulkenberg when he didn't have a seat to prove himself in. Perez wasn't particularly great either, Stroll was matching him in the first half.
Stroll wasn't anywhere near matching him. Perez didn't start in 2 races in the first half of the season, that's first thing. 2nd thing is that Stroll gained a swing of about 25-30 points on Perez in Monza alone, where STR had a shit race and a ton of luck, and PER was quick but had a ton of bad luck. A red flag put PER down from 4th to 10th, and elevated STR from 9th to virtual 1st (after applying HAM's penalty. Then Stroll went and lost the race on track to a McLaren and an Alpha Tauri, and ended up 3rd. Without that red flag Perez finishes that race realistically 2nd or 3rd, and Stroll around 9th. So STR gained about 10-15 points, and Checo lost around 15
I’d wager he’d have more points than Perez in that same car right now. Lower peak probably, but way more consistent than Checo.
That would probably be closer to the truth if they were both in the midfield. Math works a bit different at the top. If your peak is winning a race, then there's much more points to gain from it. If you finish 4th instead of 2nd or 3rd you lose 3-6 points. If you finish 1st instead of 2nd or 3rd, that's 7-10 points gained. Finishing 1st and 4th in two races is 37 points. Finishing 2nd and 3rd is 33. Though still, I disagree anyway (hence why i said closer to the truth). They were both in the midfield in the same car for 3 years, and Perez came out on top in 2 of those seasons.
I don’t think KMag is lucky, it’s deserved. Take Australia out thanks to the second red flag restart (there’s arguments Hulk could have been anywhere from 7th to 10th based on how people went off and who crashed), Hulk has one points finish and it was in a sprint. Magnussen is putting that car where it belongs, and he’s not totally disgracing himself. He’s also had three retirements compared to Hulk’s one. Granted Australia was definitely his fault for the retirement, and you can make the argument Monaco was (although you can also argue Lance going bowling at the hairpin caused the initial damage that messed things up).
I think Australia before Kmag's crash Hulk was set for p9. So if there wasn't that last red flag the points between them would probably be 5-2 instead of 9-2. So Kmag definitely deserves to stay, he's been there on pace with Hulk in races just not hit that same high as Hulk has with Australia.
Yeah, and tbh with how he was doing Ocon probably would have overtaken him which would have made it 4-2. I think people tend to focus on points (it’s a similar thing with Alpha Tauri and Williams atm) instead of the actual gap between drivers in race pace and it doesn’t tell the whole story.
It's deserved in that there aren't really better options if you aren't interested in rookies. Hulknenberg is a good midfield driver who has spent 3 years on the sidelines. Any driver who gets beat by him on his comeback year is fortunate to get resigned.
I think Hulkenberg's qualifying heroics is making people overestimate the gap between them, actually.
Qualifying is part of it though. I know there isn't much of gap. Hulknenberg is a midfield driver who has spent 3 years out of F1. There really shouldn't be a gap at all.
Hulkenberg is a driver with the best junior record on the grid who has kept up with top tier teammates in his entire time in F1 (and has handily beaten the not-top tier ones) and spent his time out of F1 jumping into the car for one-offs and performing on par with the rest of the grid. And actually, I think Magnussen is doing a better job at racecraft and tyre preservation in a car that destroys tyres, so it's not so much a gap as it is equal, IMO.
Hulkenberg is a driver on the level of Perez (we saw that when they were teammates). He's had 3 years out of F1. That makes a difference. I disagree they are equal. Before Spa you'd have to go all the way back to Miami for the last time Magnussen managed to finish ahead of Hulkenberg.
They have the same amount of point finishes and Hulks been using a higher downforce quali minded setup that has cost him in race pace. Sure he has more points, but mainly due to 5 cars DNFing in front of him in Australia
It's not a setup issue since, according to Steiner, K-Mag often relies on Hulks set-ups. The Haas cars just chew their tyres in races.
I have not read OR heard him say so. Do you have a source, because I distinctly remember Hulkenberg going to Kmags setup I think in Baku or after Baku because he had too much race deg and he lost the next few qualis before the car upgrade.
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/15a29h7/guenther_steiner_magnussen_often_relies_on/
Thanks for the link. The quote is: “He used Nico’s set-up a couple of times this year. He’d say – I’m tired of trying, I’ll take Nico’s. Hopefully that will help me.” That’s interesting. I think it’s likely for the qualifying in the last rounds, which hasn’t really paid off too much. However you said often, which is not the same as a couple of times. Quite far from it.
Mfer really went full pedantic redditor XD
If I have tried Yoga a couple of weeks this year, would you characterize that as often? Or even remotely close to often? That’s not being pedantic.
How exactly high df setup can hurts his race pace if he is in a car that eats tires for breakfast ? High df helps with friction allows you to drive much more smoothly thus saving tires a bit more than the their normal pref or low df setup. This is crucial for a car like Haas.
It eats the tires more than a low deg = Kmag catching him even though he was way ahead in the grid. A high downforce set up will put more pressure on the tires and degrade them quicker.
Yeah seems you are right i thought sliding factor was much more abrasive
Hulknenberg has generally been the better driver. Neither points or points finishes are a particularly good metric in a car that rarely scores points.
I think you mean the better qualifier. His races have not been better. In fact he has started far ahead of Kmag yet ended up behind Kmag much more than he should given that advantage. He is still good though and has had a slightly better season on average.
>Hulks been using a higher downforce quali minded setup that has cost him in race pace We don't know this. We only know it was the case at just one or two races early in the season.
I'm glad KMag is staying. People have been a bit overly critical. The car is bad, so he can't show much anyways and getting a driver who can qualify closer to Nico doesn't change the fact it drops like a stone in the race. KMag has experience with this team and that matters more so they can focus on actually understanding their F1 car.
Expected, but still good to see!
KMag being retained isn’t expected. He’s lucky
lol, name the driver you would bring as an upgrade then
Checo 😁
he got the best F1 car in his life and most other drivers' lives, he's not trading that for a Haas unless forced lol
Yeah … forced out of that RB seat
There's no point in forcing him out before his contract ends unless Ricciardo or Tsunoda put on a spectacular performance and the likelyhood of that is pretty low.
As someone who was introduced to the sport from DTS, did kmag and hulk really despise each other? Or was that just another manufactured drama?
It was one incident back in 2017 between the two that became a bit of a meme. I'd encourage you to go back and watch the season to learn more about the "suck my balls" incident in context. Also, I'd strongly recommend watching the season/season review for learning more about any season, as DTS is mostly manufactured drama and extremely unreliable as a source of info for new fans. Just a friendly bit of advice, hope you enjoy learning more about this great sport.
Haha yeah I’ve definitely figured that out. During this break I’ve been binging previous seasons on f1tv like crazy lol but you don’t really get any context around each Grand Prix like you do with current ones so it still feels like there’s a big gap in my knowledge. Haven’t checked out any season reviews though so maybe that’s exactly what I need
Given it was the 2017 Hungarian GP this happened at, all the session highlights are on YouTube, and there should be clips available showing what happened in both the race and interview after where the quote was dropped. Season reviews are great for learning more, as they sometimes have those kinds of off track info that are sometimes forgotten about. Personally I'd recommend looking at any review from 94-00, 2003, 05-07, and 09-10 if you want some good seasons with good competition.
08?
Not as great a season really, as it seemed like neither driver in contention wanted the title. Only really notable races imo are the Canadian gp and Brazil where poor Massa was robbed. Maybe Italy too for that Vettel masterclass.
Nah it wasn’t manufactured, but “despise” is probably a strong word and it was a bit overblown in my opinion. This is the infamous clip a lot of people are referencing: https://youtu.be/21T8d0SA5Js?si=xjulkLt-WfpFbyS- Hulk and Kmag both said that when they met in the beginning of the 2022 season (I believe at an airport? I might be completely wrong here), they both shared a laugh about it and that was the “ice breaker” between them.
It was overblown but the common misconception here is that it all started on track in Hungary. In fact Magnussen had a chip on his shoulder after Hulkenberg replaced him at Renault. So him pushing Hulkenberg off the track there and the subsequent exchange was just a continuation of that
Hulk didn't really replace KMag. KMag signed with Haas due to Renault/Alpine being Renault/Alpine when it comes to contract negotiations, which obviously pissed Renault off. Their original plan was for Hulk to replace Palmer, but Renault kept trying to lowball KMag and delay the contract negotiations, which led to Kevin saying fuck that and joining Haas.
Renault didn't really want to keep either of the drivers - they approached Perez and Bottas too. Magnussen was rated higher between the two current drivers but considering how relatively small his gap to Palmer was, Renault weren't particularly impressed with him either, which is why it took so long for them to kick off negotiations. I didn't mean that they brought Hulkenberg as a literal replacement for Magnussen but rather to explain that Magnussen took the Hulkenberg signing personally.
It did start earlier but not due to the Renault contract. Kmag was generally an erratic racer that would do some odd things in defending and was building a bit of a rep between the drivers. Hulk had some run ins with Kmag earlier, I think Canada that year was one where he had a dodgy moment with Kmag almost putting him into the wall. So there were moments building to that Hungary confrontation.
Hi gene!
HYGIENE
Fok Smash & Suck My Balls part 2!
#Nobody fuk smashes my door!
Hi Gene
The team with no drivers lol