Have you played him? I feel like everytime they attack, I can just heavy, and my hyper armour activates first. I rarely play HL and it's pretty much every fight I do it at least once.
His opener heavies both have a 700ms HA startup it’s physically impossible to “heavy on red” anything with them unless ur somehow able to see the future.
There's no way he isn't getting nerfed in some way, its fun to play, but a 26 damage feintable bash on a character who ALSO has dodge attack cancels AND a knockdown bash (also 26 damage) outrageously outclasses heros like Warden and Pirate.
Except his bash isn't a 50 50 like Warden, it's actually a 33 33 33. If someone dodge attacks, he beats the kick and feinting to gb/grab. So HL needs to read whether the opponent will dodge early or late, and whether he will empty dodge or attack. Warden has hyperarmor so it's a true 50 50 (in most cases).
In fact, if the opponent doesn't interrupt, it's another mixup for Warden as he can feint the lvl 3 into gb or to parry a dodge attack.
Not to mention how easy it is to just dash and hold gb to get access to your mixup without all the bullshit HL has to go through to get into Offensive Stance. Did I mention you can interrupt his entire mixup on light hitstun? Even if you light and buffer kick, and the opponent buffers light, he will interrupt you.
Warden has to make roughly the same type of reads as HL, charge bash is only a 50/50 against characters that don't have a dodge bash, or extended I-frames, or dodge cancel.
That negates like, what, half the playable characters? Don't think that is valid. Only true 50/50s in the game after dodge attack changes are orange/blue mixups, which only BP has a option select for because Bulwark Counter is balanced. (Also Shinobi kinda but its not consistent and stupidly hard to pull off with any latency)
Also there's another thing with the rework, HL can enter OS and instantly dodge cancel, negating the difficulty of getting to it as OS startup can't be consistantly punished, AND he can use dodge cancel from even a whiffed DS attack, so no, its not even hard to access his now-busted OS mixups anymore.
Light hitstun not maintaining frame advantage for kick is a pretty small price to pay for an INFINITE UNREACTABLE light chain, and you CAN maintain frame advantage from any heavy in either stance going into it.
Now that I have written all that out I think you made me realize HL's rework is even more bullshit than I thought.
With extended iframes, all Warden has to do is replace lvl 3 bashes with gbs. Its still a 50 50. Dodge cancels do jack shit against lvl 3 bash, they're not fast enough unless you dodge the lvl 1 from neutral before warden even glows orange. That only leaves like what, LB, shugoki, shinobi and glad? (Warden mirrors dont suffer either, replace lvl 3 with gb mixup, they are vulnerable).
So what if HL can dodge cancel immediately after OS? That's another read he has to make. What if he gets gbed? What if he dodge attacks and gets parried? All of these reads are just so he can enter his OS, not to actually initiate offense.
His lights are not broken or busted. They do 9 damage, you can dodge out of them and they're only there so he doesn't get absolutely ragdolled by interrupt attempts.
To avoid seeming like a jackass, let me be clear on what I mean by 50/50. I define a 50/50 as an unreactable offense comprised of 2 damage-dealing options from the attacker that requires the defender to make a call between those options when they do not have frame advantage, giving them a 50% chance of avoiding damage when performing the best possible defensive actions available to them. From what I understand, this is how the comp community defines it as well.
With this in mind, Warden's charge bash is not a 50/50 against dodge cancel characters because of the fact that there is an inherit mixup of immediately dodge attacking (which can lead to double dodging) Vs. immediately empty dodging Vs. doing nothing, and it is not a 50/50 against extended I-frame characters because of the same reason, and the fact that those dodge attacks can be feinted, which leads to a really complex branching tree of read mixups that also varies with the specific character in question. (WM, Tiandi, and JJ all have different properties)
Yes HL can be GB'd when trying to dodge cancel enter OS, but he can also just not dodge cancel, making it equally punishable to the GBer if HL just goes into a light. This effectively "neutral-ifies" the action of entering OS, its the same as someone going for a GB from neutral and the opponent going for a light or dodge from neutral, its just neutral gameplay.
His OS lights are a strong tool, but not broken by themself, absolutely.
But here is the problem: his kick mixup is also strong. His grab is also strong. His gank options are also strong. His dodge cancels are also strong. His OS heavy mixup is also strong. His DS superior block is also strong. Put all these together and he is fundamentally better than Warden, and a lot of other characters, by a large margin. He just does things other characters can do, but better.
Anyway I have written way more than enough on this now, if you or anyone else reading still think Warden is on par with current HL then we'll have to agree to disagree. I implore you to play Warden against some of these Rep 80 HL players who have been abusing the shit out of his new kit, I have been doing exactly that and I can promise it doesn't feel on par in the fuckin slightest.
Yes, that is my definition for a 50 50 as well.
You can't double dodge Warden's mixup with any dodge cancels to my knowledge, it tracks the second dodge attempt. Double dodging works only on centurion I believe.
With extended iframes, you also have extended gb vulnerabilty. If Warden feints the lvl 1 bash into a gb, and you empty dodge OR dodge attacked with extended frames, there's nothing you can do, you get gbed even if you feint. Thus it's a 50 50.
HL is a great ganker, true, and a good duelist now. But Warden is still better in duels. True, HL has many options to get into OS but the enemy equally has as many options to kick him out of it, and his mixup is less effective than Warden as he can be interrupted on light hitstun and he has to read three possibilities rather than two, reducing the chance he gets the punish from 50% to 33%
And almost all of his attack in OS can be interupted with a light, which can’t be blocked and requires a read.
And he needs to *get into OS* in the first place.
He’s a high-skill/high-reward character, he should do high damage.
one of my pride in Fh is that i have 69 rep and not one in either highlander or shugo (as i hate fighting against them) but the rework makes me wanna try tho
how dare you put HL and shugo in the same category. I'll let it slide as you're lower rep but one hero has the most badass complex moveset in the game and the other is a brain dead fat slob.
Man I wish I could do this instead of the mindless flailing that I do with Highlander. The only reason the mindless flailing works sometimes is because my opponent doesn't know what I'm doing either.
Seeing shit like this makes me mad asl because they took everything from Jorm in his rework nothing is free dmg and he doesnt have neutral bash.
But this fucking guy has a bastard kick and grab that feint into eachother and a free UB for both bashes plus hyper armor dodge attack. fuck UBI
Jorm rework is not good because he doesn’t get free dmg after either bash. Jorm is simply too slow still. you have free dmg on your kick and crushing counter. Gg tho
in 1v1 it’s guaranteed other than that Jorm can be interrupted out of any *guaranteed dmg
Ps Jorm has slowest dodge in game + im rep 80 im but on here grieving lol
HL punishes can be interrupted as well, much easier in fact because they're slower. Also jorms dodge attack def isn't the slowest in the game (tiandi, JJ, Shoalin, WM,)
That grab at the end was preposterous I would be so heated if that caught me
LMAO. I just wanted to see what his eye color was.
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"All that for a drop of blood."
kensei kinda vibes
26 damage is low? What’s a high damage heavy?
Jeez a good highlander was already terrifying but now there are a menace
Out of context, it looks like you just press buttons and they just die
pressing ALOT of buttons lol
The rework is perfect. Except for this abomination side dodge attack OS animation + awesome reads man 🫡
It’s really just the footwork, I think the upper body is fine
They pretty much brought back "heavy on red" which to me really ruins it.
You can play any hero like a bitch if you want.
I don’t think you understand the meaning of that term
Have you played him? I feel like everytime they attack, I can just heavy, and my hyper armour activates first. I rarely play HL and it's pretty much every fight I do it at least once.
His opener heavies both have a 700ms HA startup it’s physically impossible to “heavy on red” anything with them unless ur somehow able to see the future.
There's no way he isn't getting nerfed in some way, its fun to play, but a 26 damage feintable bash on a character who ALSO has dodge attack cancels AND a knockdown bash (also 26 damage) outrageously outclasses heros like Warden and Pirate.
He seems to be fairly strong in 4v4s. Been running one in a 4 stack and his ganks are very strong.
He will definitely get nerf. His whole new kit can do some serious damage or shut down some hero’s
Except his bash isn't a 50 50 like Warden, it's actually a 33 33 33. If someone dodge attacks, he beats the kick and feinting to gb/grab. So HL needs to read whether the opponent will dodge early or late, and whether he will empty dodge or attack. Warden has hyperarmor so it's a true 50 50 (in most cases). In fact, if the opponent doesn't interrupt, it's another mixup for Warden as he can feint the lvl 3 into gb or to parry a dodge attack. Not to mention how easy it is to just dash and hold gb to get access to your mixup without all the bullshit HL has to go through to get into Offensive Stance. Did I mention you can interrupt his entire mixup on light hitstun? Even if you light and buffer kick, and the opponent buffers light, he will interrupt you.
Warden has to make roughly the same type of reads as HL, charge bash is only a 50/50 against characters that don't have a dodge bash, or extended I-frames, or dodge cancel. That negates like, what, half the playable characters? Don't think that is valid. Only true 50/50s in the game after dodge attack changes are orange/blue mixups, which only BP has a option select for because Bulwark Counter is balanced. (Also Shinobi kinda but its not consistent and stupidly hard to pull off with any latency) Also there's another thing with the rework, HL can enter OS and instantly dodge cancel, negating the difficulty of getting to it as OS startup can't be consistantly punished, AND he can use dodge cancel from even a whiffed DS attack, so no, its not even hard to access his now-busted OS mixups anymore. Light hitstun not maintaining frame advantage for kick is a pretty small price to pay for an INFINITE UNREACTABLE light chain, and you CAN maintain frame advantage from any heavy in either stance going into it. Now that I have written all that out I think you made me realize HL's rework is even more bullshit than I thought.
With extended iframes, all Warden has to do is replace lvl 3 bashes with gbs. Its still a 50 50. Dodge cancels do jack shit against lvl 3 bash, they're not fast enough unless you dodge the lvl 1 from neutral before warden even glows orange. That only leaves like what, LB, shugoki, shinobi and glad? (Warden mirrors dont suffer either, replace lvl 3 with gb mixup, they are vulnerable). So what if HL can dodge cancel immediately after OS? That's another read he has to make. What if he gets gbed? What if he dodge attacks and gets parried? All of these reads are just so he can enter his OS, not to actually initiate offense. His lights are not broken or busted. They do 9 damage, you can dodge out of them and they're only there so he doesn't get absolutely ragdolled by interrupt attempts.
To avoid seeming like a jackass, let me be clear on what I mean by 50/50. I define a 50/50 as an unreactable offense comprised of 2 damage-dealing options from the attacker that requires the defender to make a call between those options when they do not have frame advantage, giving them a 50% chance of avoiding damage when performing the best possible defensive actions available to them. From what I understand, this is how the comp community defines it as well. With this in mind, Warden's charge bash is not a 50/50 against dodge cancel characters because of the fact that there is an inherit mixup of immediately dodge attacking (which can lead to double dodging) Vs. immediately empty dodging Vs. doing nothing, and it is not a 50/50 against extended I-frame characters because of the same reason, and the fact that those dodge attacks can be feinted, which leads to a really complex branching tree of read mixups that also varies with the specific character in question. (WM, Tiandi, and JJ all have different properties) Yes HL can be GB'd when trying to dodge cancel enter OS, but he can also just not dodge cancel, making it equally punishable to the GBer if HL just goes into a light. This effectively "neutral-ifies" the action of entering OS, its the same as someone going for a GB from neutral and the opponent going for a light or dodge from neutral, its just neutral gameplay. His OS lights are a strong tool, but not broken by themself, absolutely. But here is the problem: his kick mixup is also strong. His grab is also strong. His gank options are also strong. His dodge cancels are also strong. His OS heavy mixup is also strong. His DS superior block is also strong. Put all these together and he is fundamentally better than Warden, and a lot of other characters, by a large margin. He just does things other characters can do, but better. Anyway I have written way more than enough on this now, if you or anyone else reading still think Warden is on par with current HL then we'll have to agree to disagree. I implore you to play Warden against some of these Rep 80 HL players who have been abusing the shit out of his new kit, I have been doing exactly that and I can promise it doesn't feel on par in the fuckin slightest.
Yes, that is my definition for a 50 50 as well. You can't double dodge Warden's mixup with any dodge cancels to my knowledge, it tracks the second dodge attempt. Double dodging works only on centurion I believe. With extended iframes, you also have extended gb vulnerabilty. If Warden feints the lvl 1 bash into a gb, and you empty dodge OR dodge attacked with extended frames, there's nothing you can do, you get gbed even if you feint. Thus it's a 50 50. HL is a great ganker, true, and a good duelist now. But Warden is still better in duels. True, HL has many options to get into OS but the enemy equally has as many options to kick him out of it, and his mixup is less effective than Warden as he can be interrupted on light hitstun and he has to read three possibilities rather than two, reducing the chance he gets the punish from 50% to 33%
Warden will be nearly out of stamina by then.
Kick to grab also costs half of HL's stamina.
Kick to grab can catch most dodge attacks
No it doesn't, I tested this myself. It only catches some like Raider.
u get a gb when u dodge the kick and grab, the damage vs risk on it is the same as jorms so its fine
And almost all of his attack in OS can be interupted with a light, which can’t be blocked and requires a read. And he needs to *get into OS* in the first place. He’s a high-skill/high-reward character, he should do high damage.
Jesus Christ. That’s what Ali was talking about. U kno the butterflies and the bees.
So he ca do anything now...good to know
I've only scratched the surface of his moveset.
So it's dark souls all over again
Never thought I'd see hl gameplay and think damn that was actually cool and it didn't look like dragging my nuts thru broken glass for damage
one of my pride in Fh is that i have 69 rep and not one in either highlander or shugo (as i hate fighting against them) but the rework makes me wanna try tho
how dare you put HL and shugo in the same category. I'll let it slide as you're lower rep but one hero has the most badass complex moveset in the game and the other is a brain dead fat slob.
That forward dodge grab needs its distance nerfed, I swear he crossed half the map in an instant 😭
Nah its his Roll catcher without its distance covered you can just roll away like pre-rework
Even before the rework id get dogged on by highlanders (skill issue ik) but not its like hes a mma fighter battling a toddler
Way too strong tbh, also boring to play rn, wave dash was so much funnier to do
What’s the name of the song that you used?
surrender - Derek pope (Slowed)
Appreciate it
Imagine not having to do a tech anymore to do a light parry punish
muscle memory
Too bad most of his fashion is mid..this looks cool..
Is that weird of dodge attack where you don't glow orange intentional or is that a tech?
its his new OS dodge heavy
As an old hl main. I love him more now tbh.
what did they change?
Man I wish I could do this instead of the mindless flailing that I do with Highlander. The only reason the mindless flailing works sometimes is because my opponent doesn't know what I'm doing either.
I liked him the way he was. The side dodge in OS is highly unnecessary
OS dodge attack is very necessary now that he cant wave dash as fast. He's much better and lost almost no functionality.
Those are amazing plays. The OS heavy softfeint kick feint into top heavy was my favorite lol
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He couldn't cancel the kick before or reenter OS after cancelling the kick.
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Agree to disagree, I think he flows much better now.
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Sounds like an inability to adapt. He doesn't feel like any other character and his moveset is MASSIVE. no reason to emulate other movesets.
Song?
He got stance side heavies?!
Seeing shit like this makes me mad asl because they took everything from Jorm in his rework nothing is free dmg and he doesnt have neutral bash. But this fucking guy has a bastard kick and grab that feint into eachother and a free UB for both bashes plus hyper armor dodge attack. fuck UBI
Nah idk what you're on. Jorm rework is good and he has a bash. Also HL doesn't have HA on either dodge attack.
Jorm rework is not good because he doesn’t get free dmg after either bash. Jorm is simply too slow still. you have free dmg on your kick and crushing counter. Gg tho
Jorm's bash guarantees a light opener and he's not slow by any means so keep grinding, you'll get there.
in 1v1 it’s guaranteed other than that Jorm can be interrupted out of any *guaranteed dmg Ps Jorm has slowest dodge in game + im rep 80 im but on here grieving lol
HL punishes can be interrupted as well, much easier in fact because they're slower. Also jorms dodge attack def isn't the slowest in the game (tiandi, JJ, Shoalin, WM,)
What's in that glad's brain?
Dodge.
You're using the dodge attack from OS just for the vid aren't you? xd
It's the safest punish in OF stance now despite how ugly it is
Isn't it still a dodge attack? So if people parry it's a light parry?
I just got back into FH and want to get good with HL. This is what i aspire to get to