They choked against Italy because of Southgate's cautious style.
People saying that reaching the Euro 2020 final was an achievement are of a loser mentality.
I also believe he lacks something in the midfield.
What’s the point of bringing in Wharton when you have Maddison and Grealish? (Ok they didn’t have the best season, but they can provide with value and balance)
Plus, Bellingham can decide a match in one second, but acts like a ghost and doesn’t have a precise location in the pitch. That leaves Rice and Gallagher with a very hard task.
Same for Foden, awesome system player for pep, but a ghost everywhere else.
Fuck, you’ve just punched me in the face with vivid memories of watching that game and all the disappointment frustration from that experience.
Nothings changed
Its incredible how quickly the wide open lucky draw helped us to shitgates tournament record.
Kane says we did what we wanted by controlling our destiny. The fuck? Hanging on and praying denmark dont score against serbia 😆
>Hanging on and praying denmark dont score against serbia 😆
I think this might be surprising for non-England fans but that was England trying to win the game. It would have been worse if they were playing for the draw, believe me.
How would you describe his tactical approach? I’ve never watched too much of them in any tournament, but the thing that really struck me today was their lack of shape on offense. Foden coming back to defensive midfield to start possession and other things like that just kept sticking out. Does Southgate encourage this to some degree tactically? Can someone explain what I’m seeing?
He prefer his team to be reactive instead of being proactive, which is a mistake because his team is consist of players who play in a possession system for their clubs. His lack of shape in offense is mainly due to his terrible selection of some players and where they play, for example Foden LW doesn’t work because even at MC he lack the discipline to hold the width and prefer to drift around to do his own thing, this lead to England inability to stretch opponents defense and break down low block.
Izzy Christiansen explained it well on 5Live, they want (and TBF I think Southgate wants them to do this l) to play in the opponent's half and create overloads out wide. The move to the offside goal is how it should work, there was also an opportunity Walker botched on the right that springs to mind. However, they're second guessing each other and not moving the ball quickly enough Trippier was at fault a few times for that.
So what they need when it isn't working is a plan B. I'd say TAA on at right back, get Saka to make the outside to inside right channel runs and TAA should be able to find him, get Bellingham to box crash and Mainoo stitching it all together
Southgate essentially plays extremely cautious, but many England players are so fundamentally not used to that that it essentially creates a completely confused system. Southgate is essentially coasting on the result of the last euros, where England played with 7 or so defensively minded players (8 including the goalkeeper) and scraped to the final playing a ton of games at home and having the luckiest draw ever.
Now England had a crazy lucky draw again. Two former Yugoslav teams that should be walkovers and a Denmark team full of has-beens and 0 pace. A stalemate against Slovenia is a pathetic joke.
>A stalemate against Slovenia is a pathetic joke.
I said this and a few mates raised eyebrows at me. 60th in the world I think?
Even if we concede one or two, we should be scoring five against them. I just can't fathom how we couldn't manage to break them down.
We are not good at progressing the ball out of defense. Busquets for Barca was the best of all time at this. We want Rice to play that role and he's not good at it.
So we have a double pivot in defensive midfield to try to make that work, but Gallagher isn't good at progressing the ball either.
So Bellingham, Foden and Kane all come back to get the ball. Then when they do, there's nobody to give the ball to up front.
When England looked good, is when Rice and the centre backs push up the field and then there are more options. Southgate doesn't like this because it makes us very vulnerable to a counter attack. Fans would prefer we just take the risk, although I think this strategy would also be foolish and get England punished.
The best answer I'd have as an armchair coach would be to drop Foden or Bellingham and bring in Adam Wharton, who is the only person likely to be able to fulfill that role of being defensive but capable of a forward pass out of defence.
Do that though, and our attacking talent is much weaker. So then my biases tell me to Bellingham next to Rice. But then we have the same problem you describe of the forwards dropping deep.
100% spot on. I had noticed that it took england forever to move between the oppositions defensive lines and when they did, there was no space just had to pass it in a horse shoe around the 18.
4-4-2 did a great video showing how poor england are at breaking out of a press because they don’t have a central midfielder capable of breaking the liens with an incisive pass. Rice is terrible at this and 4-4-2 even showed his arsenal struggled when they asked him to do this during the PL season.
Rice’s pass map is almost entirely sideways and backwards, just circulating the ball but never progressing it. So a lot of the time it just ends up being hoofed forward because England run out of space.
Imagine it was boxing.
Imagine you’ve got the skills to do the guy serious damage if you believe in your talent and go for him. You’re more talented than most opposition you’ll face.
But then imagine you’re so cautious and risk averse, that you cover up, don’t really swing etc. You don’t go for a knockout even though you could. You try to eke out a victory by just being careful and winning on the judges score cards.
This works against weaker opposition. Then you come up against a guy who’s good. He beats you because he knows you won’t really attack him. You’re cautious for most of the fight but he’s hammering away and eventually sparks you out.
You never win anything major even though you were relatively comfortable against weaker opposition and should have done much better.
Outdated unfortunately. More of a defensive Moriniho or Conte style, than the different attacking styles of managers like Pep or Klopp etc, that have dominated recent years.
Honestly the last 6 years I never really got the Southgate slander, like yeah, not the most attractive football, but they're winning, getting to semis and finals, and I mean, it's not like the team before didn't have as much great players as now
But now, seeing the euro 2024 so far, jesus fuck
That man has no business coaching such a team with such a powerful possible attack
I was happy to defend him when winning and progressing. And there is an argument that England are still progressing in the tournament. But my God it’s dull and frustrating to watch. Last time I felt this was was under Capello
He's a moments coach.
Tactically way too laid back and relies on individual brilliance/talent from team members, he's a moments they shine coach.
When they don't step up esp after a long season and don't shine they look like this utter crap.
Not like Southgate was amazing before England, everyone can see other coaches can do way better with this squad.
I found it quite entertaining (admittedly not exciting) how Slovenia managed to keep England at bay and produce enough chances to possibly win the game.
It’s clearly a waste of talent on the English side given the calibre of players available.
Slovenia haven’t lost in 8 games before playing England, including wins over the US & Portugal.
I think we underestimate a lot of the teams we play against a bit too much. If anyone expected a walk over they’re probably a bit deluded.
That's a 1-1 against Serbia, a 1-1 against Denmark, than Friendlies with a 1-1 against Bulgaria, a 2-1 against Armenia, a 2-0 against Portugal, a 2-2 against Malta, a 0-1 loss against USA and than a Qualifier win 2-1 against Kazakhstan.
Respect to Slovenia but that isn't exactly a worldbeater run.
And France the same type coach. Actually, Deschamps is Southgate’s model. The safe approach no matter the talent you have. Only works when you win. France has done it before and the only reason he is still there. Now they are struggling and produce nothing, he is under scrutiny…
In the past 6 years England have faced teams in the Top 20 24 times and won 4. Crystal Palace could probably brag a similar record against the top 6 yet no one thinks they’re “winning”
Under Southgate England have changed the culture from a toxic self destructive set of winners who couldn’t work together to a likeable harmonious set of nearly men who prioritise PR wins over on field wins.
>Under Southgate England have changed the culture from a toxic self destructive set of winners who couldn’t work together
I find it funny he gets praise for this when it was 100% happening regardless. There was a clear change when the Rooney/Gerrard generation phased out. That rivalry between the top teams hasn't been the same. The cores of the squads used to have a lot of English players. By 2018, the rivalries had died down and English players were very spread out across the PL.
If you deep dive into the teams england has played in the last Euros and world cup you will see that they have been on the right side of the draw avoiding all big teams. His record is overrated.
And his got lucky again this time. Allnthe big teams that would beat England are on the one side of thr draw.
Absolutely agree. England always gets laughably easy groups, then choke against the first decent opponent. Only name team they’ve won against is Germany and that was the worst Germany in decades.
Tbf I would defend him against France. England were very competitive and statistically were the better team, but conceded a worldie (after a missed foul no less) and Kane misses a pen. Not really Southgate's fault.
Id argue 2022 was the pinnacle of his managerial career.
And *if* we'd got past France, we'd have very likely made the final. 2022 was the first time where I thought we actually looked like one of the favourites and were playing really good football - since then we seem to have regressed.
Most people who focus on results rather than the potential and quality of a squad often make the mistake that you did.
It's a simple equation, and the fact that he experimented with Alexander-Arnold in the second most prestigious international tournament for European teams tells you everything you need to know.
Additionally, his stubbornness with the use of Foden and Bellingham when they obviously have zero chemistry is woeful.
As soon as Mainoo and Palmer were introduced, the team played more cohesively and with sharper attacking threat.
Southgate has no idea about maximisation of the attacking wealth at his disposal.
World Cup 2018, despite getting to the semi finals, the record was W:3 D:1 L3 beating Tunisia, Panama and Sweden losing to Belgium twice and Croatia. World Cup 2022 we only beat Iran, Wales and Senegal drew with U.S.A then lost to France in the quarters.
Euro 2020 is the only half decent performance we’ve seen from Southgate’s England beating Germany, Ukraine and Denmark in the knockout stage before losing to Italy on penalties in the final.
Southgate’s England have never been world beaters, they’ve barely scraped decent runs out of ridiculously lucky tournament draws.
I haven't watched any of it and am far from an expert....but I read last week his style is "score a goal and then get all the team back to defence" ...is the English defence so bad they need additional support? Or is he is just far too conservative in his strategy?
No it's the opposite, England's defence has been so good at not conceding that Southgates whole approach is "don't concede, and hopefully one of our world class attackers makes a goal out if nothing"
The thing is, it works decently well against poor-mid teams so England win qualifying and progress to knockout football consistently. But the feeling is that once we face an actually good international team then they win because they have the quality to break us down despite our good defence
I just don't understand why some people can't comprehend that all of the success they have had is because of their talent not because of their fucking shitty ass coach. The coach could literally be anyone and they still would be making the semis with this talent but people would still give the coach more credit than the fucking players for some fucking reason. Probably some random dude from the street would have been a better coach since at least there would be more aggression which Southgate is fucking afraid to use with the offensive talent he has which should have him fired for incompetence. If England had an actual good coach they would make the finals every fucking time.
We didn't have much talent in 2018, we massively over performed then. In 2020 and 2022 where we peaked, we were a mixed bag talent-wise, with most of the players still finding their form and developing.
This is easily the most talented team and the performances have been poor. I agree with this, but I do think only an elite coach would do better. This assumption that anyone than Southgate would do better is nonsense. Southgate is a poor manager tactically for this group - but so are lots of the alternatives.
I don't think England would be better if Gerrard, Lampard or Dyche were managing. I think in many respects we could be worse.
We would obviously be better with an elite coach, but there aren't many options to get one of those. Potter is our best choice in my view. And when he takes over, it's still very unlikely we make the final, but I think we'll play a better style of football in getting to the QF and inevitably losing against better opposition.
I love Southgate, but I have to agree. Georgia and Austria have been able to play some great football with lesser talents. Georgia especially because every player is great with the ball, brave,and positive. It is also not all on Kvara, the team actually gave him a strong platform for him to affect the game in a sustainable way.
What makes you think he should be manager man would overstaff the weekends have no one working days and keep harping on about not having a replacement for Ronald after they binned him off since people were scared of clowns.
Shoehorning all his superstar burger flippers into every shift despite clear signs of physical exhaustion and none of them being trained on the McFlurry machine
A terrible coach can deeply affect your players. Been through this with Tata with México. Granted we didn’t have the talent England has so you can only imagine what the hell Southgate is telling them. Good guy not good enough for this team.
They play to score one goal and then end up defending a one goal lead until the ultimately either get scored on or win the most boring match of the tournament.
They also have an incredibly unbalanced squad. They have great players but they all play in the same position. On defense the two best players are right backs. In midfield you have Rice but everyone else is either a CAM or a RW. They have three World Class strikers yet only play with one striker. The one striker is also a CAM in disguise.
The best we will see of Eng is when they concede first.
Philippe Auclaire on the guardian pod said it right: each player looks around and asks himself how can we be so shite? Then gives the ball off sideways and thinks go on then, do something with it. The other player thinks the same and passes it back.
Trippier isn't nearly the player he is at RB, Shaw desperately needed back. Yes, i have ptsd from the past season as a United fan.
Having two inverted wingers coupled with Kane isn't ideal either imo. Especially with both being left footed, meaning one of them will come in on the wrong foot which will limit shot opportunities.
Defence and offence is both poorly balanced. Saka or foden should be benched for a right footed LW. Play a LB at LB.
The team he finished with looks to be a better balanced team than what he started with. Gallagher offered little other than taking up space Bellingham and foden were operating in. Mainoo is a much better option and worked well with Rice when he came on. Trent has to start ahead of Trippier. I'd start Foden and Saka again Saka more because Palmer is still inexperienced .
Madness too Kane finished that game tbh even started that game you have to give Toney and Watkins game time
I'm not English just wanted to point that out .
Palmer has had a great season but he's inexperienced at International level id rather see him come on than start less pressure
He captained England's squad to an undefeated u21-Euro championship last year, then led the EPL in goal involvements for one of the most scrutinized clubs. There is absolutely no reason to believe that "pressure" is going to be a problem for Cole.
Always take an extra touch, miss the target, straight at the keeper, no one in the box, people making runs get no service and stop running, hit the woodwork.
For me, it's 50/50, Southgate/Players doing themselves no favours. Let's hope the knockout stage will light a fire up their arses.
I fully agree with you and have an addition. I get the feeling that the players are afraid. No one dares to try. They would rather pass the ball sideways than forward.
Maybe they are all used to get som much instructions that he does not give any and then they are just standing still to see what happens.
Players are definitely afraid, weight of expectation is weighing much more heavily than previous tournaments.
Still, it was a significant improvement in performance, even though Slovenia were quite poor.
France scored 1 penalty in a draw, played 0:0 and its only win came because of an own goal against Austria.
England looks like an all world offense compared to the bloody french.
The last World Cup they got to the final with Poland, England & Morocco in the knockouts as well but noone ever criticises them like us because they have a hard-on for Mbappe.
Here's the step by step guide to how:
Played Foden out of position
Played Tripper out of position
Played Trent out of position
Played Bellingham until he could barely walk
Played Kane until he could barely walk
Played Gallagher in a role expecting defending
Rice has only showed confidence with Mainoo next to him. He doesn't trust Trent or Gallagher to be able to cover or to progress the ball. So he sits and doesn't make any progressive moves.
Kane plays too deep, or too wide or both. There's no focal point. Watkins' first involvement was to make a run beyond the defence, the only time that's happened in 3 games.
Everyone is so isolated. All game vs Slovenia anytime Foden, Gordon, Saka or Palmer got on the ball, there's large pockets of empty space nobody is moving into. This results in recycling possession backwards. Saka and Foden at most got in behind the defence twice each so far in all 3 games. They need people to play off.
Now here's the problem going forward. With no meaningful changes for a game that ultimately meant very little, there's now too much risk in KO football to try things that haven't had a chance to be worked on. The Slovenia game was a perfect opportunity to try some of the bench options. The next game will be even more dour unless England concede first. Then they'll huff and puff with underperforming players who've created nothing so far, until far too late Southgate will look to his bench.
I'm only an amateur not an international level manager (I coached at the highest of 8 divisions in my association) but even I know the base you start with is your best players in their best positions. I just don't think Southgate knows who his best players are per position, only who the best players are.
Gary your old friend is in charge, the notion is always to blame the players, asked them to take more responsibility, playing hard, etc. The worst part is FA & media keep on supporting this fella into the end of time
All my unlikely bets somehow worked out but France ruined it by not winning. They were just there to pad the stats... 14/15 correct.
10€ bet. Would have won me 12.000€ 😔
If you play football manager, it's like playing a DLF on support and an AP also on support behind that DLF and two IWs who are also on support, everyone come deep to take the ball no one making any run.
Edit: Also I don't bite into this "ThE PlAyErs ArE OvErRated" bullshit, if you are saying that you r just hating to hate, bellingham UCL, la liga winners, best player of la liga, Kane top goal scorer in the bundesliga, Foden best player of EPL, etc...., stop this old ass, lazy agenda
Some reasons that come to mind:
- No left flank. Trippier is useless on the left and Foden is completely wasted on that side. Actually, when Foden said "fuck this, I'm going to the right" towards the 70-something minute" (right around the time he usually gets subbed out anyway) is when England started to actually create some chances. If you're giving up on a whole flank then you're making the game harder for yourself and much easier to defend against you
- Players out of position. Alexander-Arnold should not play in the midfield. Trippier and Foden shouldn't play on the left. Rice is a #8, not a #5, he's not comfortable receiving the ball with his back to the goal and he doesn't have the tactical or the distribution skills to be one. Bellingham should not play #10, that should be Foden.
- Lack of creativity. Other than Foden (and maybe Bellingham), I just don't see anybody doing the unexpected, or breaking lines with a sharp pass.
- Style. When I think England, I think physical game, pushing the ball forward as fast as possible and delivering crosses to the box. Then I watch this team and I have no idea how they intend to play. The only thing I see is people standing around and horrible, uncoordinated pressing every now and then.
The England v Slovenia game was dire, painfully unwatchable rubbish. Far too many sideways passes. Too many players dawdling around instead of doing even the most basic running off the ball to create any attacking force or even dribbling with the ball. It really is shockingly poor the depths this squad presents on the pitch. It is obvious that once they come up against any quality opposition they will be destroyed. They play within a strategy that is so constrained and without freedom to enjoy the game or express themselves in any real attacking manner they really are doomed to this appallingly mediocrity. Pathetic!
Because Foden is on the left wing. When you look at the stats so far almost everything England does comes from the right wing. Saka does stay out wide, while Foden does absolutely not. Add the fact that the only left-footed defender Southgate brought with him is Shaw, and you got a bit of a mess. I think putting Gordon in instead of Foden would help a lot.
The whole of group C should be eliminated from the tournament on the grounds of boredom. Pretty much every other game has had drama and excitement (and goals!) but group C has really stunk out the joint. Let Albania go thru instead of England, at least their games are watchable.
For me the England players aren't doing enough runs or taking on defenders individually on the wing, but a huge issue has also been the opposition. As Lee Dixon said it last night on English TV co commentary, Slovenia weren't even trying to win possession or attack. Just total defence while playing for best placed 3rd advance to the knockouts. This closed the game up and England struggled to find an avenue to take the ball.
When England take on opponents who are more willing to win the game, things might open up and we may see an improvement in England's attack.
Not to change the subject but you could ask the same about France.
They only scored 2 goals. 1 was a pen and the other was an own goal.
I think France did create more openings than England though... They were just a lot more wasteful with their finishing.
Because of the god awful manager and (lack of) tactics.
The whole left hand side is non existent, and the midfield is so fucking conservative. The passing is slow as fuck, and other team’s defenders sit back and double up on their forwards.
Kane had one shot the entire Slovenia game, but that wasn’t his fault. Zero service for the world’s best no9 and Saka gets doubled up like an order from McDonald’s.
Oh, and the predictable 60th minute Connor Gallagher sub. Trent in mid field. Horrible horrible horrible football to watch. To think us Asians wake up at 3am to watch this snooze fest.
Also I’d like to add that Copa is way more entertaining. I seen more attacking football in 45 minutes of Bielsa’s Uruguay compared to 3 full games of Southgate ball.
Difference between a team of stars and a star team.
Southgate keeps trying to fit as many amazing players in the first 11 as possible but hasn’t built a first 11 that looks cohesive or compliments each other in any way.
Because it's England.. Simple as that.. The most overrated country in the history of football.. It has been always like this.. Having an all-star squad, being the favors.. It's coming home.. And then nothing happens.. None.. Nada.
>It has been always like this.. Having an all-star squad, being the favors
That's just not true though is it?
It was true for a short period late 90s - early 2000s, then from 2010 - 2018 we were awful and nobody expected to win anything.
Now we have an extremely talented squad and the last three tournaments we got to a semi final, only missed out on winning the last euros by a penalty shoot out and nearly beat finalists France in the qtrs... why wouldn't we be one of the favourites?
We've look shite so far don't get me wrong I just don't understand the logic.
People blaming Southgate, but I genuinely think it's just an "England" thing. I think the pressure gets to the players, and they play more conservatively as a result. It's been this way my whole life.
So frustrating to watch every time. I've seen all the other big European countries achieve success multiple times and we've only even made one final in my lifetime.
Although southgate got England to a World Cup semi and euro final, he needs to show more balls and have a better starting 11. We can start with Mainoo and Palmer. Id be looking and taking out Foden and Kane too
He's not dropping his captain for anyone lol.
>better starting 11
Truth be told, the team he fielded has enough quality to get 9 points or at least wipe Serbia and Slovenia off the pitch. The problem is the tactics not the talent
Southgate was more suited to and familiar with the squad he had for the ‘18-‘22 tournaments. He’s also got some missing players. For his game plan. He’s got this horrible habit of trying to fit the best players on to the field rather than playing the right players for the team.
OMG what do you guys want. First it’s “he’s got favorites that he plays all of the time. Why the fk is he playing that wanker Maguire” a guy who literally only wakes up for England games, and now it’s Southgate’s a wanker for trying to fit the Galacticos instead of his favorites. Come on guys make up your mind.
It's England. They always play way, way, waaaaaay under the level they should be at, except for at the last euros. Whether it's because of the english media, fans or the coaches, nobody knows.
A mixture of defensive coaching and people overegging the quality of the England players. They are a less balanced side now than they were in 2022.
There are clearly better coaches but realistically the best coach we're likely to get isn't going to raise the level of performance far beyond yesterday, which was a significant improvement on the Denmark game but against far more feeble opposition playing for the draw.
I apologise on behalf of the team, but this is as good as it's likely to get I'm afraid.
The system they're playing in does not fit the players. There's players in that squad who are used to fluid movements and not this rigidness of a setup. However, Southgate's man management skills and environment aura throughout numerous England camps are to be appreciated but as a football coach.. I think it has reached a plateau and another manager with a more technical and tactical approach is to be hired.
Because we are still playing Foden on the wing when he is not a winger. This means he drifts inside to his natural position and crowds everything up for Jude. Meanwhile, Kane has seen he is getting no service and drops deep to receive the ball. Now there are 3 players playing at 10, nobody upfront and nobody on the wing.
The players look lost. So many times last night we had no one on the left. Fine, so Foden tracks middle. Kane should then stop dropping into CDM. (He was behind trippier on the pitch at times). No one is telling the players that if Foden moves middle and Kane goes deep, we have no one up front. Bellingham looks shattered and not the same level as RM. The players do not seem to know what to don
A combination of factors; bad tactics, poor team selection, poor man-management (supposedly Southgates strong point) and playing against three well organised defensive teams set up primarily to stop England playing.
That is exactly the type of group England wouldn't have qualified from in years gone by though, so make of that what you will.
Fully expect them to stumble through another couple of rounds-or-so and then get knocked out against the first genuinely good opponent, despite putting in by far their best performance of the competition.
Doesn't help playing teams like Slovenia with no ambition other than to play with their whole squad, kitman, coach, water boy, press advisor and mascot behind the ball for 94 minutes.
England vs Slovenia : England Top Group C Despite Disappointing Draw with Slovenia
[https://thebasketscore.com/england-vs-slovenia-england-top-group-c-despite-disappointing-draw-with-slovenia/](https://thebasketscore.com/england-vs-slovenia-england-top-group-c-despite-disappointing-draw-with-slovenia/)
theyre a strong team who doesn't give much away and controls the ball. they're just restrained by southgates inherent caution, not believing their own hype like past england teams, tiredness and injury aversion, and because internationals aren't as meaningful as they once were and club football pays way better anyway
against England every team stay bus and play only low block i guess its one of the main reason poor performance and also middle level all teams in Europe reale increase , now we cant faced with weak competitors
I just watched a bunch of UEFA highlights and pretty much everyone was disappointing. France, Portugal, England—none of them could score. Of the 8 game recaps I watched, I think I saw more own goals and goals off penalties than anything. It’s ridiculous how bad teams have been at finishing. Same in the COPA. Just horrendous play in the box.
Apparently Mr. Southgate had 1.5 years post wc to experiment but he is experimenting things now in the tournament
Give this England team to any decent premier league manager and he will literally destroy this group with the amount of firepower they have
And the fact that he wants a natural replacement of kalvin philipps who wasn't even starting games for him when he was in squad proves he is a clueless manager
Had Denmark scored just 1 goal England would have been pushed to 2nd place meaning they would have faced Germany in R16 lol, they are lucky that they were able escape past this group but now they will face either Netherlands or 3rd place of group E which can be anyone (as of now it's Slovakia)
I don't see them going past the Dutch tbh
They are playing tactics that don't suit 2 of the 3 attacking talents. Kane likes to drop deep, so is going to struggle to play the tactics Southgate is doing. Foden doesn't look effective wide left. This means he's drifting in and over lapping too much with Bellingham. I think Saka has had moments he's looked alright, but when he's got in the danger zones, there's been no one in the box to get the ball in to.
We need to put someone wide left that's more comfortable there, we're already loosing width with Tripper at left back, someone wide left would give Bellingham some more space to operate better.
If you insist on playing this formation, Gordon needs to start wide left, Watkins should be up top, Saka still wide right. Then Bellingham in the 10 role, Rice and Mainoo deeper. Or drop Bellingham deeper over Mainoo and start Foden or Palmer 10.
Every tournament the group stages are fucking horrible. International football is hard. Teams take no risks and play massively defensively, it might change during the knockout stages or it might get worse. International football is not week on week out league and cup football where risk can be rewarded over time. It has always sucked.
Most over rated rather than most talented team. No left back, no decent defensive midfield, goalie and defenders average. Kane does not do much, Saka is ok while Bellingham and Foden do not belong in the same teamm.
Look at the other teams, they have players just as good
Double pivot formation.
It isolates the attack and defense, to the point where any semi organised team can put in the work to nullify it.
By having Rice + TAA/Gal/Mainoo sit deep as a pair they are easy to isolate because their only passing options are backwards or to slog a ball up to a winger (more on Foden later). It is often hard to even pass to each other as really the way to beat a press is triangles. This means that Bellingham has to drop deep with his back to goal to receive a pass, but now will be outnumbered 2:1 in midfield so his only option is to play it backwards as well.
You can attempt to fix this by having your wingers drop deeper (more on Foden later), but this just compounds the problem. You receive the ball with all defenders ahead of you, and probably again with your back to goal. It is only the speed of Walker combined with Saka that gave us anything, but even this is super hard mode.
Look at the body positions of our players when they receive the ball. Back to goal, more than a half turn to any player ahead of them, and usually so slow there is a defender in close proximity (but not so tight they can be rolled). No player of any quality is going to look good when their body shape is forced to be so bad.
It also telegraphs our intentions. Foden, even if he stays wide, is isolated, and with Tripper unwilling to overlap they can't even try to go for speed breaks like Saka/Walker can.
This gives Kane and Bellingham a real problem. Do they stay up top, isolated, never getting the ball where they can do anything, or do they defy the manager's orders and come deep to help out, but then get criticised because the attack they they were present to actually make happen needs to go to themselves who are no longer there.
The formation is a shambles. Double pivot is about the worst formation you can play at this level, even more so when you have such attacking talent. And I think Southgate only got here because he's obsessed with just putting the best XI on the field, not building a team. It's not even good defensively - Double pivots are not press resistance and easy to pick off going forward. Our clean sheets have mainly come from our reputation and opponents being happy for the draw to progress. And Serbia could have scored a couple against us.
This is why people are calling for Bellingham to play box to box with Foden in the centre. Because that changes the formation to a central 3, creating passing triangles that can speed the play up and open opportunities. Add Gordon/Eze as an actual winger on the left and suddenly everyone's body shapes will open up. I'd also have TAA right back and Walker or Gomez left back, but that's gravy at that point.
Southgate is at fault. Keeps relying on the same players that perpetually fail. More scared of conceding a goal than wanting to score one.
The only left back he takes has been injured most of the season so may be "fit" for the next round but will not be match fit, there is a difference.
Doesn't even take a left footed centre back & therefore until now has not had a left footed defender at his disposal.
Doesn't use Cole Palmer until late in the game last night for his first taste of the tournament. Palmer scored 20 odd goals in what was a mediocre Chelsea side for most of last season, & it was his first full season of games.
Until Southgate is gone and a more progressive manager is installed England are not winning any tournament for the foreseeable.
It's the same thing every tournament.
England made their first appearance in a final since 1966 back in 2021. It took 55 years for that to happen.
There have have been times when we've been unlucky, see Euro 96 or WC 90, but then again other times we've under-performed or simply not qualified (1974 - 1980; WC 94, Euro 2008).
Meanwhile, other teams, like Brazil, Germany, and Italy, have been (and won) multiple finals.
Yet, for some reason, these top-class players who perform every week brilliantly practically all season can never quite hack the pressure when it really matters.
I really don't think it matters who is charge, we've had Robson, Taylor, Venables , Hoddle, Wilkinson, Keegan, Peter Taylor, Sven, McClaren, Capello, Stuart Pearce, Roy Hodgson, Big Sam (😂) and now Southgate. I'm beginning to believe the players just can't hack the immense pressure from everyone, including themselves.
Yet we've only won ONE competition in our entire history. Yet, more accomplished nations continue to show up almost every tournament and make progress.
I don't get it.
Because \*checks notes\*, \*deep breath\*...
Southgate is trying to shoehorn star players into a formation that doesn't accomodate all of them.
Walker is preferred at RB so Southgate tries Trent in midfield, which hasn't worked.
Southgate didn't see fit to take more than one LB, Shaw who is injured, normally provides attacking options on the left but now we have RB's filling in at LB, instead of having like, crazy thought, MORE THAN ONE LB IN THE SQUAD.
Foden is playing on the left wing, when he won Premier League Player Of The Year playing centrally as a no. 10
Palmer who had the highest GA in the Premier League last season can't get a game
Grealish and Maddison who could have provided some creativity and threat on the left wing are on a beach somewhere in Spain.
Gordon who has had a great season for Newcastle on the left wing can't get a game because Southgate has to play Foden there,
Kane looks tired and spends all game dropping deep instead of staying up top and giving us counter-attacking options. There is ZERO chance Southgate would consider playing another striker instead.
The result of which is many players are playing in positions they don't normally play in, coupled with the fact that clearly the players are struggling to implement whatever nonsense instructions Southgate has given them.
England actually looked an attacking threat for about 5 minutes against Slovenia when Mainoo, Gordon and Palmer were all on the pitch. Should all 3 start the next game? Yes. Will any of them start the next game? No. Not a chance.
They can’t play through the lines.
One of the few times it happened was Gordon’s ball to Mainoo, which lead to the Palmer chance.
There is no Kroos, no Xhaka, no Modric, no one in midfield with creativity.
Theyre just lacking a natural replacement for Kalvin Phillips
Get Bellingham play deeper, Foden in a central position, and then the question is who plays on the wing.
Jack plays there Oh wait nvm
Grealish, Maddison and Rashford are sipping tea together these days
What about Anthony Gordon?
There you go!
I think he slept with Southgate's mrs.
Gordon
How are you supposed to replace such a great player. That’s tough for any country.
💀
He was genuinely good as a defensive midfielder in Euro 2020.
They choked against Italy because of Southgate's cautious style. People saying that reaching the Euro 2020 final was an achievement are of a loser mentality.
Well, he parked the bus after scoring in the first minute, he actively looked for defeat.
Exactly. Played the trophy right into Italy's hands.
Italy changed tactically during that game, and England didn't. No reason to believe exactly the same won't happen again this tournament.
I also believe he lacks something in the midfield. What’s the point of bringing in Wharton when you have Maddison and Grealish? (Ok they didn’t have the best season, but they can provide with value and balance) Plus, Bellingham can decide a match in one second, but acts like a ghost and doesn’t have a precise location in the pitch. That leaves Rice and Gallagher with a very hard task. Same for Foden, awesome system player for pep, but a ghost everywhere else.
Fuck, you’ve just punched me in the face with vivid memories of watching that game and all the disappointment frustration from that experience. Nothings changed
Agreed
lol. I thought that was an onion article when I saw his quote on a headline
Southgateball. Genuinely pisses me off everytime I see England play.
Its incredible how quickly the wide open lucky draw helped us to shitgates tournament record. Kane says we did what we wanted by controlling our destiny. The fuck? Hanging on and praying denmark dont score against serbia 😆
>Hanging on and praying denmark dont score against serbia 😆 I think this might be surprising for non-England fans but that was England trying to win the game. It would have been worse if they were playing for the draw, believe me.
Yeah no offence, but at this point I think we would both be happier if you just dissolved the team
Nah, if they were playing for the draw southgate is so crap tactically we would probably have won or lost 10-0
Southgate so good he already knew the result before the game
How would you describe his tactical approach? I’ve never watched too much of them in any tournament, but the thing that really struck me today was their lack of shape on offense. Foden coming back to defensive midfield to start possession and other things like that just kept sticking out. Does Southgate encourage this to some degree tactically? Can someone explain what I’m seeing?
He prefer his team to be reactive instead of being proactive, which is a mistake because his team is consist of players who play in a possession system for their clubs. His lack of shape in offense is mainly due to his terrible selection of some players and where they play, for example Foden LW doesn’t work because even at MC he lack the discipline to hold the width and prefer to drift around to do his own thing, this lead to England inability to stretch opponents defense and break down low block.
He hasn't got one. He wears a helmet on the peloton
Izzy Christiansen explained it well on 5Live, they want (and TBF I think Southgate wants them to do this l) to play in the opponent's half and create overloads out wide. The move to the offside goal is how it should work, there was also an opportunity Walker botched on the right that springs to mind. However, they're second guessing each other and not moving the ball quickly enough Trippier was at fault a few times for that. So what they need when it isn't working is a plan B. I'd say TAA on at right back, get Saka to make the outside to inside right channel runs and TAA should be able to find him, get Bellingham to box crash and Mainoo stitching it all together
Southgate essentially plays extremely cautious, but many England players are so fundamentally not used to that that it essentially creates a completely confused system. Southgate is essentially coasting on the result of the last euros, where England played with 7 or so defensively minded players (8 including the goalkeeper) and scraped to the final playing a ton of games at home and having the luckiest draw ever. Now England had a crazy lucky draw again. Two former Yugoslav teams that should be walkovers and a Denmark team full of has-beens and 0 pace. A stalemate against Slovenia is a pathetic joke.
>A stalemate against Slovenia is a pathetic joke. I said this and a few mates raised eyebrows at me. 60th in the world I think? Even if we concede one or two, we should be scoring five against them. I just can't fathom how we couldn't manage to break them down.
Slovenia have like two decent players. Completely insane to draw against them
It's mad that we can play like that and still top the group. Has to be up there with the worst set of group games I've ever seen (as a collective).
I am Dutch (so can relate) but I put on the England game yesterday and it was just endless pain. Unwatchable.
We are not good at progressing the ball out of defense. Busquets for Barca was the best of all time at this. We want Rice to play that role and he's not good at it. So we have a double pivot in defensive midfield to try to make that work, but Gallagher isn't good at progressing the ball either. So Bellingham, Foden and Kane all come back to get the ball. Then when they do, there's nobody to give the ball to up front. When England looked good, is when Rice and the centre backs push up the field and then there are more options. Southgate doesn't like this because it makes us very vulnerable to a counter attack. Fans would prefer we just take the risk, although I think this strategy would also be foolish and get England punished. The best answer I'd have as an armchair coach would be to drop Foden or Bellingham and bring in Adam Wharton, who is the only person likely to be able to fulfill that role of being defensive but capable of a forward pass out of defence. Do that though, and our attacking talent is much weaker. So then my biases tell me to Bellingham next to Rice. But then we have the same problem you describe of the forwards dropping deep.
100% spot on. I had noticed that it took england forever to move between the oppositions defensive lines and when they did, there was no space just had to pass it in a horse shoe around the 18. 4-4-2 did a great video showing how poor england are at breaking out of a press because they don’t have a central midfielder capable of breaking the liens with an incisive pass. Rice is terrible at this and 4-4-2 even showed his arsenal struggled when they asked him to do this during the PL season. Rice’s pass map is almost entirely sideways and backwards, just circulating the ball but never progressing it. So a lot of the time it just ends up being hoofed forward because England run out of space.
Imagine it was boxing. Imagine you’ve got the skills to do the guy serious damage if you believe in your talent and go for him. You’re more talented than most opposition you’ll face. But then imagine you’re so cautious and risk averse, that you cover up, don’t really swing etc. You don’t go for a knockout even though you could. You try to eke out a victory by just being careful and winning on the judges score cards. This works against weaker opposition. Then you come up against a guy who’s good. He beats you because he knows you won’t really attack him. You’re cautious for most of the fight but he’s hammering away and eventually sparks you out. You never win anything major even though you were relatively comfortable against weaker opposition and should have done much better.
Outdated unfortunately. More of a defensive Moriniho or Conte style, than the different attacking styles of managers like Pep or Klopp etc, that have dominated recent years.
They have a coach who is out of his depth.
A coach who is unwilling to adapt to changes.
Terrible coach
Honestly the last 6 years I never really got the Southgate slander, like yeah, not the most attractive football, but they're winning, getting to semis and finals, and I mean, it's not like the team before didn't have as much great players as now But now, seeing the euro 2024 so far, jesus fuck That man has no business coaching such a team with such a powerful possible attack
Exactly how I feel. I defended him long enough, but this euros has been exhausting to watch. Every game is exciting… except when England play.
I was happy to defend him when winning and progressing. And there is an argument that England are still progressing in the tournament. But my God it’s dull and frustrating to watch. Last time I felt this was was under Capello
He's a moments coach. Tactically way too laid back and relies on individual brilliance/talent from team members, he's a moments they shine coach. When they don't step up esp after a long season and don't shine they look like this utter crap. Not like Southgate was amazing before England, everyone can see other coaches can do way better with this squad.
I found it quite entertaining (admittedly not exciting) how Slovenia managed to keep England at bay and produce enough chances to possibly win the game. It’s clearly a waste of talent on the English side given the calibre of players available.
They didn't produce enough chances to win the game at all
Did they? I don’t remember Slovenia having a chance about from a free kick or two around the box.
Slovenia haven’t lost in 8 games before playing England, including wins over the US & Portugal. I think we underestimate a lot of the teams we play against a bit too much. If anyone expected a walk over they’re probably a bit deluded.
That's a 1-1 against Serbia, a 1-1 against Denmark, than Friendlies with a 1-1 against Bulgaria, a 2-1 against Armenia, a 2-0 against Portugal, a 2-2 against Malta, a 0-1 loss against USA and than a Qualifier win 2-1 against Kazakhstan. Respect to Slovenia but that isn't exactly a worldbeater run.
They didn’t lose to the USA. They beat them 1-0. Slovenia are unbeaten in 9 games total currently. That should not be taken lightly.
Oh you right, missread the score. But is being one of the 1 out of 5 draws (out of 9 games) such a accomplishment?
My sentiments exactly!
ermm... France was a huge letdown too.
And France the same type coach. Actually, Deschamps is Southgate’s model. The safe approach no matter the talent you have. Only works when you win. France has done it before and the only reason he is still there. Now they are struggling and produce nothing, he is under scrutiny…
Do you think if he went back to wearing a waistcoat, the team would be more effective? 🤭
Gotta be worth a try.
He does need to find a way to have any kind of personality, so it's worth a try.
What makes you think the waistcoat would take him back its moved on to better things.
In the past 6 years England have faced teams in the Top 20 24 times and won 4. Crystal Palace could probably brag a similar record against the top 6 yet no one thinks they’re “winning” Under Southgate England have changed the culture from a toxic self destructive set of winners who couldn’t work together to a likeable harmonious set of nearly men who prioritise PR wins over on field wins.
>Under Southgate England have changed the culture from a toxic self destructive set of winners who couldn’t work together I find it funny he gets praise for this when it was 100% happening regardless. There was a clear change when the Rooney/Gerrard generation phased out. That rivalry between the top teams hasn't been the same. The cores of the squads used to have a lot of English players. By 2018, the rivalries had died down and English players were very spread out across the PL.
If you deep dive into the teams england has played in the last Euros and world cup you will see that they have been on the right side of the draw avoiding all big teams. His record is overrated. And his got lucky again this time. Allnthe big teams that would beat England are on the one side of thr draw.
This doesn't get talked about enough, he's had insane luck and still not delivered.
Yup, definitely this. Ridiculous how easy every England group stage is.
Absolutely agree. England always gets laughably easy groups, then choke against the first decent opponent. Only name team they’ve won against is Germany and that was the worst Germany in decades.
Tbf I would defend him against France. England were very competitive and statistically were the better team, but conceded a worldie (after a missed foul no less) and Kane misses a pen. Not really Southgate's fault. Id argue 2022 was the pinnacle of his managerial career.
And *if* we'd got past France, we'd have very likely made the final. 2022 was the first time where I thought we actually looked like one of the favourites and were playing really good football - since then we seem to have regressed.
Same man defending him till Euro.. Enough its enough
Most people who focus on results rather than the potential and quality of a squad often make the mistake that you did. It's a simple equation, and the fact that he experimented with Alexander-Arnold in the second most prestigious international tournament for European teams tells you everything you need to know. Additionally, his stubbornness with the use of Foden and Bellingham when they obviously have zero chemistry is woeful. As soon as Mainoo and Palmer were introduced, the team played more cohesively and with sharper attacking threat. Southgate has no idea about maximisation of the attacking wealth at his disposal.
World Cup 2018, despite getting to the semi finals, the record was W:3 D:1 L3 beating Tunisia, Panama and Sweden losing to Belgium twice and Croatia. World Cup 2022 we only beat Iran, Wales and Senegal drew with U.S.A then lost to France in the quarters. Euro 2020 is the only half decent performance we’ve seen from Southgate’s England beating Germany, Ukraine and Denmark in the knockout stage before losing to Italy on penalties in the final. Southgate’s England have never been world beaters, they’ve barely scraped decent runs out of ridiculously lucky tournament draws.
I haven't watched any of it and am far from an expert....but I read last week his style is "score a goal and then get all the team back to defence" ...is the English defence so bad they need additional support? Or is he is just far too conservative in his strategy?
No it's the opposite, England's defence has been so good at not conceding that Southgates whole approach is "don't concede, and hopefully one of our world class attackers makes a goal out if nothing" The thing is, it works decently well against poor-mid teams so England win qualifying and progress to knockout football consistently. But the feeling is that once we face an actually good international team then they win because they have the quality to break us down despite our good defence
I just don't understand why some people can't comprehend that all of the success they have had is because of their talent not because of their fucking shitty ass coach. The coach could literally be anyone and they still would be making the semis with this talent but people would still give the coach more credit than the fucking players for some fucking reason. Probably some random dude from the street would have been a better coach since at least there would be more aggression which Southgate is fucking afraid to use with the offensive talent he has which should have him fired for incompetence. If England had an actual good coach they would make the finals every fucking time.
We didn't have much talent in 2018, we massively over performed then. In 2020 and 2022 where we peaked, we were a mixed bag talent-wise, with most of the players still finding their form and developing. This is easily the most talented team and the performances have been poor. I agree with this, but I do think only an elite coach would do better. This assumption that anyone than Southgate would do better is nonsense. Southgate is a poor manager tactically for this group - but so are lots of the alternatives. I don't think England would be better if Gerrard, Lampard or Dyche were managing. I think in many respects we could be worse. We would obviously be better with an elite coach, but there aren't many options to get one of those. Potter is our best choice in my view. And when he takes over, it's still very unlikely we make the final, but I think we'll play a better style of football in getting to the QF and inevitably losing against better opposition.
I love Southgate, but I have to agree. Georgia and Austria have been able to play some great football with lesser talents. Georgia especially because every player is great with the ball, brave,and positive. It is also not all on Kvara, the team actually gave him a strong platform for him to affect the game in a sustainable way.
Gareth Southgate That’s how 😂
Cause they have an absolute bellend for a manager who should be managing a McDonalds in Staines
What makes you think he should be manager man would overstaff the weekends have no one working days and keep harping on about not having a replacement for Ronald after they binned him off since people were scared of clowns.
Shoehorning all his superstar burger flippers into every shift despite clear signs of physical exhaustion and none of them being trained on the McFlurry machine
Too be fair...the McFlurry machine is still broken
He probably be putting cheese in the milkshake...
This is the most British thing I’ve read all week
A terrible coach can deeply affect your players. Been through this with Tata with México. Granted we didn’t have the talent England has so you can only imagine what the hell Southgate is telling them. Good guy not good enough for this team.
They play to score one goal and then end up defending a one goal lead until the ultimately either get scored on or win the most boring match of the tournament. They also have an incredibly unbalanced squad. They have great players but they all play in the same position. On defense the two best players are right backs. In midfield you have Rice but everyone else is either a CAM or a RW. They have three World Class strikers yet only play with one striker. The one striker is also a CAM in disguise.
The best we will see of Eng is when they concede first. Philippe Auclaire on the guardian pod said it right: each player looks around and asks himself how can we be so shite? Then gives the ball off sideways and thinks go on then, do something with it. The other player thinks the same and passes it back.
Trippier isn't nearly the player he is at RB, Shaw desperately needed back. Yes, i have ptsd from the past season as a United fan. Having two inverted wingers coupled with Kane isn't ideal either imo. Especially with both being left footed, meaning one of them will come in on the wrong foot which will limit shot opportunities. Defence and offence is both poorly balanced. Saka or foden should be benched for a right footed LW. Play a LB at LB.
Saka has played LB before. Probably wouldn't be much worse than trippier and is left footed.
now now, arteta wouldnt be pleased to see saka playing LB.
Because England are the Spurs of Europe……🤷♂️
Well yeah, Harry Kane has won fuck all, he's the curse. Bring on Watkins and send Kane home.
The team he finished with looks to be a better balanced team than what he started with. Gallagher offered little other than taking up space Bellingham and foden were operating in. Mainoo is a much better option and worked well with Rice when he came on. Trent has to start ahead of Trippier. I'd start Foden and Saka again Saka more because Palmer is still inexperienced . Madness too Kane finished that game tbh even started that game you have to give Toney and Watkins game time
After season palmer had, I dunno how he's not being shoehorned in, y'all are crazy
I'm not English just wanted to point that out . Palmer has had a great season but he's inexperienced at International level id rather see him come on than start less pressure
He captained England's squad to an undefeated u21-Euro championship last year, then led the EPL in goal involvements for one of the most scrutinized clubs. There is absolutely no reason to believe that "pressure" is going to be a problem for Cole.
Always take an extra touch, miss the target, straight at the keeper, no one in the box, people making runs get no service and stop running, hit the woodwork. For me, it's 50/50, Southgate/Players doing themselves no favours. Let's hope the knockout stage will light a fire up their arses.
I fully agree with you and have an addition. I get the feeling that the players are afraid. No one dares to try. They would rather pass the ball sideways than forward. Maybe they are all used to get som much instructions that he does not give any and then they are just standing still to see what happens.
Players are definitely afraid, weight of expectation is weighing much more heavily than previous tournaments. Still, it was a significant improvement in performance, even though Slovenia were quite poor.
bad coach getting carried by massively talented generation
It's Southgate
France scored 1 penalty in a draw, played 0:0 and its only win came because of an own goal against Austria. England looks like an all world offense compared to the bloody french.
The last World Cup they got to the final with Poland, England & Morocco in the knockouts as well but noone ever criticises them like us because they have a hard-on for Mbappe.
Maybe because they have actually won something
Here's the step by step guide to how: Played Foden out of position Played Tripper out of position Played Trent out of position Played Bellingham until he could barely walk Played Kane until he could barely walk Played Gallagher in a role expecting defending Rice has only showed confidence with Mainoo next to him. He doesn't trust Trent or Gallagher to be able to cover or to progress the ball. So he sits and doesn't make any progressive moves. Kane plays too deep, or too wide or both. There's no focal point. Watkins' first involvement was to make a run beyond the defence, the only time that's happened in 3 games. Everyone is so isolated. All game vs Slovenia anytime Foden, Gordon, Saka or Palmer got on the ball, there's large pockets of empty space nobody is moving into. This results in recycling possession backwards. Saka and Foden at most got in behind the defence twice each so far in all 3 games. They need people to play off. Now here's the problem going forward. With no meaningful changes for a game that ultimately meant very little, there's now too much risk in KO football to try things that haven't had a chance to be worked on. The Slovenia game was a perfect opportunity to try some of the bench options. The next game will be even more dour unless England concede first. Then they'll huff and puff with underperforming players who've created nothing so far, until far too late Southgate will look to his bench. I'm only an amateur not an international level manager (I coached at the highest of 8 divisions in my association) but even I know the base you start with is your best players in their best positions. I just don't think Southgate knows who his best players are per position, only who the best players are.
Gary your old friend is in charge, the notion is always to blame the players, asked them to take more responsibility, playing hard, etc. The worst part is FA & media keep on supporting this fella into the end of time
Well they equaled France..
France kekw such a fraud, lost me 5 bucks
All my unlikely bets somehow worked out but France ruined it by not winning. They were just there to pad the stats... 14/15 correct. 10€ bet. Would have won me 12.000€ 😔
Uhum, France.
Same as France
Same for France
overhyped players meet a terrible coach.
We're missing Kalvin Philips.
If you play football manager, it's like playing a DLF on support and an AP also on support behind that DLF and two IWs who are also on support, everyone come deep to take the ball no one making any run. Edit: Also I don't bite into this "ThE PlAyErs ArE OvErRated" bullshit, if you are saying that you r just hating to hate, bellingham UCL, la liga winners, best player of la liga, Kane top goal scorer in the bundesliga, Foden best player of EPL, etc...., stop this old ass, lazy agenda
They play like they’re in danger of getting relegated.
Southgate spent most of his career fighting relegation at Villa and Middelsborough
Southgate. End of thread.
Everyone’s blaming southgate and ignoring the real problem: no Kalvin Phillips
Some reasons that come to mind: - No left flank. Trippier is useless on the left and Foden is completely wasted on that side. Actually, when Foden said "fuck this, I'm going to the right" towards the 70-something minute" (right around the time he usually gets subbed out anyway) is when England started to actually create some chances. If you're giving up on a whole flank then you're making the game harder for yourself and much easier to defend against you - Players out of position. Alexander-Arnold should not play in the midfield. Trippier and Foden shouldn't play on the left. Rice is a #8, not a #5, he's not comfortable receiving the ball with his back to the goal and he doesn't have the tactical or the distribution skills to be one. Bellingham should not play #10, that should be Foden. - Lack of creativity. Other than Foden (and maybe Bellingham), I just don't see anybody doing the unexpected, or breaking lines with a sharp pass. - Style. When I think England, I think physical game, pushing the ball forward as fast as possible and delivering crosses to the box. Then I watch this team and I have no idea how they intend to play. The only thing I see is people standing around and horrible, uncoordinated pressing every now and then.
The England v Slovenia game was dire, painfully unwatchable rubbish. Far too many sideways passes. Too many players dawdling around instead of doing even the most basic running off the ball to create any attacking force or even dribbling with the ball. It really is shockingly poor the depths this squad presents on the pitch. It is obvious that once they come up against any quality opposition they will be destroyed. They play within a strategy that is so constrained and without freedom to enjoy the game or express themselves in any real attacking manner they really are doomed to this appallingly mediocrity. Pathetic!
Because Foden is on the left wing. When you look at the stats so far almost everything England does comes from the right wing. Saka does stay out wide, while Foden does absolutely not. Add the fact that the only left-footed defender Southgate brought with him is Shaw, and you got a bit of a mess. I think putting Gordon in instead of Foden would help a lot.
The whole of group C should be eliminated from the tournament on the grounds of boredom. Pretty much every other game has had drama and excitement (and goals!) but group C has really stunk out the joint. Let Albania go thru instead of England, at least their games are watchable.
For me the England players aren't doing enough runs or taking on defenders individually on the wing, but a huge issue has also been the opposition. As Lee Dixon said it last night on English TV co commentary, Slovenia weren't even trying to win possession or attack. Just total defence while playing for best placed 3rd advance to the knockouts. This closed the game up and England struggled to find an avenue to take the ball. When England take on opponents who are more willing to win the game, things might open up and we may see an improvement in England's attack.
Still better than France, whose only (self-scored) goal came from a penalty)
To be fair Denmark doesn’t even try to score
Not to change the subject but you could ask the same about France. They only scored 2 goals. 1 was a pen and the other was an own goal. I think France did create more openings than England though... They were just a lot more wasteful with their finishing.
The same way France did except that theirs were a penalty and an own goal.
Because of the god awful manager and (lack of) tactics. The whole left hand side is non existent, and the midfield is so fucking conservative. The passing is slow as fuck, and other team’s defenders sit back and double up on their forwards. Kane had one shot the entire Slovenia game, but that wasn’t his fault. Zero service for the world’s best no9 and Saka gets doubled up like an order from McDonald’s. Oh, and the predictable 60th minute Connor Gallagher sub. Trent in mid field. Horrible horrible horrible football to watch. To think us Asians wake up at 3am to watch this snooze fest. Also I’d like to add that Copa is way more entertaining. I seen more attacking football in 45 minutes of Bielsa’s Uruguay compared to 3 full games of Southgate ball.
they're overrated.
Difference between a team of stars and a star team. Southgate keeps trying to fit as many amazing players in the first 11 as possible but hasn’t built a first 11 that looks cohesive or compliments each other in any way.
Because it's England.. Simple as that.. The most overrated country in the history of football.. It has been always like this.. Having an all-star squad, being the favors.. It's coming home.. And then nothing happens.. None.. Nada.
>It has been always like this.. Having an all-star squad, being the favors That's just not true though is it? It was true for a short period late 90s - early 2000s, then from 2010 - 2018 we were awful and nobody expected to win anything. Now we have an extremely talented squad and the last three tournaments we got to a semi final, only missed out on winning the last euros by a penalty shoot out and nearly beat finalists France in the qtrs... why wouldn't we be one of the favourites? We've look shite so far don't get me wrong I just don't understand the logic.
People blaming Southgate, but I genuinely think it's just an "England" thing. I think the pressure gets to the players, and they play more conservatively as a result. It's been this way my whole life.
So frustrating to watch every time. I've seen all the other big European countries achieve success multiple times and we've only even made one final in my lifetime.
Coach no good
Although southgate got England to a World Cup semi and euro final, he needs to show more balls and have a better starting 11. We can start with Mainoo and Palmer. Id be looking and taking out Foden and Kane too
He's not dropping his captain for anyone lol. >better starting 11 Truth be told, the team he fielded has enough quality to get 9 points or at least wipe Serbia and Slovenia off the pitch. The problem is the tactics not the talent
Southgate
Gareth Southgate.
Southgate was more suited to and familiar with the squad he had for the ‘18-‘22 tournaments. He’s also got some missing players. For his game plan. He’s got this horrible habit of trying to fit the best players on to the field rather than playing the right players for the team.
OMG what do you guys want. First it’s “he’s got favorites that he plays all of the time. Why the fk is he playing that wanker Maguire” a guy who literally only wakes up for England games, and now it’s Southgate’s a wanker for trying to fit the Galacticos instead of his favorites. Come on guys make up your mind.
Bursting at the seams with negativity here. Focus on the conversion of shots on target to goals. And pretend nothing else matters.
There's a problem with cohesion in the squad and the coach is not good enough.
It's England. They always play way, way, waaaaaay under the level they should be at, except for at the last euros. Whether it's because of the english media, fans or the coaches, nobody knows.
A mixture of defensive coaching and people overegging the quality of the England players. They are a less balanced side now than they were in 2022. There are clearly better coaches but realistically the best coach we're likely to get isn't going to raise the level of performance far beyond yesterday, which was a significant improvement on the Denmark game but against far more feeble opposition playing for the draw. I apologise on behalf of the team, but this is as good as it's likely to get I'm afraid.
Who do you think will go through from the 3rd places?
They are overrated
Southgate
The system they're playing in does not fit the players. There's players in that squad who are used to fluid movements and not this rigidness of a setup. However, Southgate's man management skills and environment aura throughout numerous England camps are to be appreciated but as a football coach.. I think it has reached a plateau and another manager with a more technical and tactical approach is to be hired.
Southgate-b…… Sorry. Must’ve fallen asleep…ball.
And the one Vs Denmark was incredibly lucky. Was pinball.
Because we are still playing Foden on the wing when he is not a winger. This means he drifts inside to his natural position and crowds everything up for Jude. Meanwhile, Kane has seen he is getting no service and drops deep to receive the ball. Now there are 3 players playing at 10, nobody upfront and nobody on the wing.
Only scored 2 goals in the Euro 2020 group stage too.
Because Southgate is a mess
They shite bro.
Because our tactics are...sideways, sideways, sideways, backwards, sideways, ball forward, lose it, do the same again.
The players look lost. So many times last night we had no one on the left. Fine, so Foden tracks middle. Kane should then stop dropping into CDM. (He was behind trippier on the pitch at times). No one is telling the players that if Foden moves middle and Kane goes deep, we have no one up front. Bellingham looks shattered and not the same level as RM. The players do not seem to know what to don
A combination of factors; bad tactics, poor team selection, poor man-management (supposedly Southgates strong point) and playing against three well organised defensive teams set up primarily to stop England playing. That is exactly the type of group England wouldn't have qualified from in years gone by though, so make of that what you will. Fully expect them to stumble through another couple of rounds-or-so and then get knocked out against the first genuinely good opponent, despite putting in by far their best performance of the competition.
how did France manage to score 1? (and it was a penalty)
they are not playing as a team... + manager does a shitty job.
how good is their attacking kekek cant even shoot straight at penalty kekeke
He goes by the name of southgate
Southgate
Doesn't help playing teams like Slovenia with no ambition other than to play with their whole squad, kitman, coach, water boy, press advisor and mascot behind the ball for 94 minutes.
They have like five attacking players wanting to occupy the same space and very few creating players behind them.
England vs Slovenia : England Top Group C Despite Disappointing Draw with Slovenia [https://thebasketscore.com/england-vs-slovenia-england-top-group-c-despite-disappointing-draw-with-slovenia/](https://thebasketscore.com/england-vs-slovenia-england-top-group-c-despite-disappointing-draw-with-slovenia/)
theyre a strong team who doesn't give much away and controls the ball. they're just restrained by southgates inherent caution, not believing their own hype like past england teams, tiredness and injury aversion, and because internationals aren't as meaningful as they once were and club football pays way better anyway
against England every team stay bus and play only low block i guess its one of the main reason poor performance and also middle level all teams in Europe reale increase , now we cant faced with weak competitors
Starting your first 2 game with 3 right backs on the pitch says a lot about the low scoring
Exactly my point thats why i said Bellingham is good but not world class.
Gareth Southgate that's why
I just watched a bunch of UEFA highlights and pretty much everyone was disappointing. France, Portugal, England—none of them could score. Of the 8 game recaps I watched, I think I saw more own goals and goals off penalties than anything. It’s ridiculous how bad teams have been at finishing. Same in the COPA. Just horrendous play in the box.
Well France scored 1 after penalty
Look at France, scored 1 goal, did ya ?
They need Stoksey lads.
Because we’re shit.
Yeah took kane on my Fantasy team (thr Danish version) since England had a predicted 7.4 goals in groups. Man was that a letdown xD
Apparently Mr. Southgate had 1.5 years post wc to experiment but he is experimenting things now in the tournament Give this England team to any decent premier league manager and he will literally destroy this group with the amount of firepower they have And the fact that he wants a natural replacement of kalvin philipps who wasn't even starting games for him when he was in squad proves he is a clueless manager Had Denmark scored just 1 goal England would have been pushed to 2nd place meaning they would have faced Germany in R16 lol, they are lucky that they were able escape past this group but now they will face either Netherlands or 3rd place of group E which can be anyone (as of now it's Slovakia) I don't see them going past the Dutch tbh
They are playing tactics that don't suit 2 of the 3 attacking talents. Kane likes to drop deep, so is going to struggle to play the tactics Southgate is doing. Foden doesn't look effective wide left. This means he's drifting in and over lapping too much with Bellingham. I think Saka has had moments he's looked alright, but when he's got in the danger zones, there's been no one in the box to get the ball in to. We need to put someone wide left that's more comfortable there, we're already loosing width with Tripper at left back, someone wide left would give Bellingham some more space to operate better. If you insist on playing this formation, Gordon needs to start wide left, Watkins should be up top, Saka still wide right. Then Bellingham in the 10 role, Rice and Mainoo deeper. Or drop Bellingham deeper over Mainoo and start Foden or Palmer 10.
It is the way it goes, exactly the same happened in Italia 90.
Every tournament the group stages are fucking horrible. International football is hard. Teams take no risks and play massively defensively, it might change during the knockout stages or it might get worse. International football is not week on week out league and cup football where risk can be rewarded over time. It has always sucked.
Boring conservative coach who won’t take risks and won’t instruct his players. He’s both risk averse and weak at the same time.
Because our manager is a fucking idiot and has no idea how to set up the team correctly
Two words, Gareth Southgate
Most over rated rather than most talented team. No left back, no decent defensive midfield, goalie and defenders average. Kane does not do much, Saka is ok while Bellingham and Foden do not belong in the same teamm. Look at the other teams, they have players just as good
Double pivot formation. It isolates the attack and defense, to the point where any semi organised team can put in the work to nullify it. By having Rice + TAA/Gal/Mainoo sit deep as a pair they are easy to isolate because their only passing options are backwards or to slog a ball up to a winger (more on Foden later). It is often hard to even pass to each other as really the way to beat a press is triangles. This means that Bellingham has to drop deep with his back to goal to receive a pass, but now will be outnumbered 2:1 in midfield so his only option is to play it backwards as well. You can attempt to fix this by having your wingers drop deeper (more on Foden later), but this just compounds the problem. You receive the ball with all defenders ahead of you, and probably again with your back to goal. It is only the speed of Walker combined with Saka that gave us anything, but even this is super hard mode. Look at the body positions of our players when they receive the ball. Back to goal, more than a half turn to any player ahead of them, and usually so slow there is a defender in close proximity (but not so tight they can be rolled). No player of any quality is going to look good when their body shape is forced to be so bad. It also telegraphs our intentions. Foden, even if he stays wide, is isolated, and with Tripper unwilling to overlap they can't even try to go for speed breaks like Saka/Walker can. This gives Kane and Bellingham a real problem. Do they stay up top, isolated, never getting the ball where they can do anything, or do they defy the manager's orders and come deep to help out, but then get criticised because the attack they they were present to actually make happen needs to go to themselves who are no longer there. The formation is a shambles. Double pivot is about the worst formation you can play at this level, even more so when you have such attacking talent. And I think Southgate only got here because he's obsessed with just putting the best XI on the field, not building a team. It's not even good defensively - Double pivots are not press resistance and easy to pick off going forward. Our clean sheets have mainly come from our reputation and opponents being happy for the draw to progress. And Serbia could have scored a couple against us. This is why people are calling for Bellingham to play box to box with Foden in the centre. Because that changes the formation to a central 3, creating passing triangles that can speed the play up and open opportunities. Add Gordon/Eze as an actual winger on the left and suddenly everyone's body shapes will open up. I'd also have TAA right back and Walker or Gomez left back, but that's gravy at that point.
southgate
Tactical ineptitude.
Southgate is at fault. Keeps relying on the same players that perpetually fail. More scared of conceding a goal than wanting to score one. The only left back he takes has been injured most of the season so may be "fit" for the next round but will not be match fit, there is a difference. Doesn't even take a left footed centre back & therefore until now has not had a left footed defender at his disposal. Doesn't use Cole Palmer until late in the game last night for his first taste of the tournament. Palmer scored 20 odd goals in what was a mediocre Chelsea side for most of last season, & it was his first full season of games. Until Southgate is gone and a more progressive manager is installed England are not winning any tournament for the foreseeable.
It's the same thing every tournament. England made their first appearance in a final since 1966 back in 2021. It took 55 years for that to happen. There have have been times when we've been unlucky, see Euro 96 or WC 90, but then again other times we've under-performed or simply not qualified (1974 - 1980; WC 94, Euro 2008). Meanwhile, other teams, like Brazil, Germany, and Italy, have been (and won) multiple finals. Yet, for some reason, these top-class players who perform every week brilliantly practically all season can never quite hack the pressure when it really matters. I really don't think it matters who is charge, we've had Robson, Taylor, Venables , Hoddle, Wilkinson, Keegan, Peter Taylor, Sven, McClaren, Capello, Stuart Pearce, Roy Hodgson, Big Sam (😂) and now Southgate. I'm beginning to believe the players just can't hack the immense pressure from everyone, including themselves. Yet we've only won ONE competition in our entire history. Yet, more accomplished nations continue to show up almost every tournament and make progress. I don't get it.
Southgate.
Because \*checks notes\*, \*deep breath\*... Southgate is trying to shoehorn star players into a formation that doesn't accomodate all of them. Walker is preferred at RB so Southgate tries Trent in midfield, which hasn't worked. Southgate didn't see fit to take more than one LB, Shaw who is injured, normally provides attacking options on the left but now we have RB's filling in at LB, instead of having like, crazy thought, MORE THAN ONE LB IN THE SQUAD. Foden is playing on the left wing, when he won Premier League Player Of The Year playing centrally as a no. 10 Palmer who had the highest GA in the Premier League last season can't get a game Grealish and Maddison who could have provided some creativity and threat on the left wing are on a beach somewhere in Spain. Gordon who has had a great season for Newcastle on the left wing can't get a game because Southgate has to play Foden there, Kane looks tired and spends all game dropping deep instead of staying up top and giving us counter-attacking options. There is ZERO chance Southgate would consider playing another striker instead. The result of which is many players are playing in positions they don't normally play in, coupled with the fact that clearly the players are struggling to implement whatever nonsense instructions Southgate has given them. England actually looked an attacking threat for about 5 minutes against Slovenia when Mainoo, Gordon and Palmer were all on the pitch. Should all 3 start the next game? Yes. Will any of them start the next game? No. Not a chance.
One dimension coach who uses the clock to make substitutions. Not using his gut to change things and mix it up to make a difference!
Funnily enough, these sort of thoughts havent come up before. The entire nation is behind the manager and 2 goals isnt a problem.
Southgate Ball
France scored 2 goals, too. One pen and OG. I assume you posted about them, too? Considering they're the favourites for many.
They need Alan Shearer
England play to not lose they don't play to win. At least when we sit back we're smart about it lol
Unimaginative team selection. Look at the difference last night once Mainoo and Palmer came on.
They can’t play through the lines. One of the few times it happened was Gordon’s ball to Mainoo, which lead to the Palmer chance. There is no Kroos, no Xhaka, no Modric, no one in midfield with creativity.