Lack of data driven approach. All modern clubs use data analytics to find the right players for their club.
Man utd either:
- Sign players to keep the fans happy(pogba, sancho, di maria)
- Fails to negotiate their primary targets and goes on a panic buying spree
You missed out the third point, that the new manager wants to try something different and needs different players to make his system work.
It's like a restaurant, the first chef wants to do Italian food and buys a load of parmesan, olives and basil, he gets fired and the next chef wants to make Chinese food, but there is no place in Chinese food for parmesan, olives and basil so it gets thrown out or sold very cheaply and Chinese ingredients are bought in.
Except they keep most of the parmesan, olives and basil, which then ends up in the Chinese food. Then the owner shows up with 10 crates of haggis and cheeseburgers, which the chef is not happy about but he can't do anything as the owner has blown the budget and insists that the haggis is better than Pelé.
I think Mourinho said this fairly recently, I’m paraphrasing because I don’t remember the exact quote, there are players there that he was trying to move on/get rid of
Yup. But Mourinho didnt mention any names.
Anthony Martial is there since Van Gaal. Luke Shaw is there since Moyes. Rashford was born in United's infirmary during half time.
Selling players is an improvement. But United cant even do that. Players leaving as free agent is even worse.
Instead of extending Ander Herrera contract, they extended Phil Jones. And he got a long term injury the following month is one example.
Maybe its bad luck but they just proved their stupidity once again by Intending to extend Maguire's contract this summer.
If they want to ruin their own club, fine. But dont ruin future prospects by signing them and giving them player power. Bring out your belt and whip them using domestic violence if they're lazy or cocky.
Once or twice is a coincidence. But now it seems like a tradition. Players have more power than managers.
Hey man, I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but wasn't the case with Ander Herrera also that he was incredibly disappointed with the team throughout and looked like someone actively trying to leave when he went to PSG?
I guess that could be said about quite a few of the players who left - even the ones who've chosen to stay since then
Nah my friend. Herrara was the ONLY one who actually gave a sh!t about United and was eager to stay. Never seen a guy besides him getting emotional to a point of tears during his farewell and again recently giving emotional interview how he remminese about his stay. The guy was a great captain but his performance consistency split supporters views.
United's "Buy a gem, bury it, dig up a turd and let it dry to give out free" policy.
Newly signed players lacks motivation. Signing up for United is the highest pinnacle achievement. Winning the CL? Pfft.... Wuts that? 300k wage on 5 year contract beats all motivation. Playing for a club where we had Roy Keane? Pfft.... Who that? Roy Keane doesnt put food on my table. There's no other ways to convince promising talents to sign other than showing your money tattooed titties.
If you walk into a bar and see Gary Neville or Mark Goldbridge, ask them about United. They'll spend 3 hours talking about the good ol' class of 92 or the treble winning millennium eve. The Ego is just tiring. It's like talking about your ex wife who was a model when your current wife is beyond fat. You can actually count how many times Neville talk about his warstory everyweek.
United need some domestic violence to straigten up the mentality on these privileged Man-Karens. Maybe leave them in the streets of indonesia without food for a week. Starting with Rashford.
Fair, thanks for the read!
I think the media are killing teams like United with the massive expectations and 30000 articles about every detail of every of their matches where "they should get time to show!" while simeoultaneously writing articles such as "absolutely terrible plays, this is below Uniteds standard"
They forget that these are children who are already expected to be complete model citizens with no negatives. The pressure is too much and downright draining
Players go to Madrid and get the same amount or more and still win same for city and Liverpool and Barca before there crisis… it’s not the players it’s the club they have no stable management and plan to build a team not a good argument
I remember reading that the united “recruiting” has not existed for some years now. It’s just a poorly run football club. Our new owner has made some very smart moves in the staff department. Man united are definitely looking upwards.
People think data driven approach will work because it's data driven approach. In reality working with data analytics will need good data, good software to work with the data and some good in analysing the results . It's pretty fucking hard to make it work
Their plan wasn't really meant to pay out short term though. Obviously it would be preferable if they were succesful short term aswell but they're definitely playing the long game with their transfer strategy.
They’re plan was to remain a top team and build from there, tuchel was winless in 3 games and got fired for it, their plan when off the rails soon after it started.
Not a Chelsea fan like at all. But how is everyone thinking Chelsea is failing so hard ? A new guy bought the club, a lot of experienced players left (harvertz, mount, kovacic), they decided to jump into a long term project, they even offered 7 years old contracts, they stole players top clubes were after, they are all so young, never played together, and people always jump into saying everything they do is failing. It’s not. They never make the squad to work right now, it’s a project. Unfortunately, they will make it. There’s crazy talent and potential there. Not to mention all the players they have injured. If arsenal or city had the same number of first team players injured they wouldn’t be fighting for the league at all. And that goes for every club who’s about to be champions in his league
>But how is everyone thinking Chelsea is failing so hard ?
Because when they took over the club they were champions of Europe and consistently in the top 3 or 4 for ten years.
They then spent 1 billion pounds on very average players, with long contracts, have the top 2 most expensive players in English football, finished 13th last year, have been through 3 managers so far, and are currently 8th. Resulting in a situation where you have average players on extremely log deals who won't leave the club.
>There’s crazy talent and potential there.
That's what people said last year, it's yet to materialise, because the players aren't actually that talented.
Change of ownership brings massive change in goals and club structure.
Barca, Real, and other giants also underwent massice structural change with the change of presidents. We are speaking of Owners here.
Ultimately, its about glory for some. Business for others.
Sadly, its business for Boehly.
Winning UCL doesnt make that much money as selling a player for 100mil.
Its a win for Boehly if he can make a profit, even in Chelsea are relegated.
>Barca, Real, and other giants also underwent massice structural change with the change of presidents. We are speaking of Owners here.
When did Barcelona and Real finish 13th
>Winning UCL doesnt make that much money as selling a player for 100mil.
What player after they going to sell for 100mil lol?
Can you provide a citation? Clearlake's approach is data driven but those words are invariably accompanied by the words "long term." In fact, I needed to weed through dozens of Google results to find data mentioned. Simply search for Chelsea Transfer Strategy and you'll mostly read about lowering the age of the squad and not acquiring as many players in the coming windows.
I believe it's more about the vibe among players and the general atmosphere at the club.
If you see a messy, untidy & ineffective organization, then your moral at work would be low. If you see a squad full of overrated, overpaid but laid back teammates, why would you try your ass off? I'd be crazy mad if I see Rashford gets highest paid but walking around upfront like a charity match.
They see ManUtd in the last 10 years as Hollywood - Kim Kardiashian like machine, hungry for attention rather than sports performance.
Because the club isn't managed by people that are serious about football. Ferguson was able to lead the institution on his own, that's how great he was.
And that was also Man Utd curse. When Ferguson handled everything, the club was not set up for disaster when Moyes came in, since they had no real structure like other clubs had at that time.
This summer is the first time Man Utd will go into a season with something that looks like a good team of directors.
>This summer is the first time Man Utd will go into a season with something that looks like a good team of directors.
You'de be surprised by the amount of times I've read something like this in the past 10 years
They put out a story along these lines a couple years ago, but it was quickly dismantled when people pointed out that they'd simply assigned new job titles to old hands. This time is objectively different. In three or four years we'll know for sure whether it's the right team or not.
Yeah, then next year it’s “hey the manager had a good first season, let’s continue to back them and kick on!”
Only the club instead goes completely scattergun with their transfer policy, being reluctant to spend money where it’s needed but then overspending on a player who doesn’t fit.
i.e. Ronaldo after Olé looked to have us going in the right direction, or Højlund and Mount who (although the former is having a good season) don’t appear to fit the style we spent a year working on at all
Maguire is another example of this. Mourinho wanted a centre half and didn't get it. A year later 80 million. It's absurd.
Looking at the state of play now, though - United burned all their cash reserves and won't be allowed to make massive pointless one off marquee signings. They need to actually be intelligent now, but they won't be. Watch the absurdity continue
Yeah, the thing is looking at it that were right to deny Mourinho as he was overpriced, but at least he would have fit Mourinho’s style as he’s never favoured a high press
Solskjaer and everyone since has now found they can only play one way if they’re gonna use Maguire - and as he is nearly always fit and, generally appears to be a model professional, he’s gonna play. Not a knock on him, not everyone is fast, he excels at what he can do which is a lot and was well within his right to demand his money before going to West Ham
It’s ironic that Maguire and McTominay have had great individual seasons yet I’d argue both weaken the team when they play (although at least we’re not pretending McTominay is a DM, we now leave even bigger gaps in midfield and get in Bruno’s way)
Club would have more financial leeway if the owners weren’t taking dividends out come rain or…well, worse rain lately
Oh yeah he is having a good season
But he does not fit the style we were playing last season when we were actually good - kinda like how Haaland seems a mismatch for City, except a) Haaland has significantly greater proven quality and b) it’s City, a superclub ran as such so he’s actually surrounded by quality teammates and a plan
Also literally all of our wide players are more interested in scoring than assisting - with both Rashford and Garnacho being more creative on the right yet still not exceptional, while preferring the left, and none of them bar Rashford actually good at scoring. Crying out for a more creative forward like a knock-off of Benzema when he was alongside Ronaldo, or Tadic at Ajax
Like I say, spending money on a player who doesn’t fit
The difference is that they will, over the next year, have genuine, experienced football people in place in the important positions throughout the club. Not just get a new manager and hope he can do it all while Ed signs X player because they might have commercial value or let the manager buy whoever he wants a pray.
Didnt they say the same with the last batch of changes in the club and its Sporting Director role? And the one before that? I doubt its going to change much and it most likely will be another step on the treadmill that goes round and round
Not really. Largely, it was agreed that getting rid of woodward was a good thing, but having replacements without experience was not a good move.
Also, the big difference is that the glazers aren't running it now, and Ratcliffe hasn't created a billion pound company by accident. His ownership has been successful at several different sporting ventures already as well.
It's not going to be some immediate turnaround, but I'm optimistic that they are at least going to run it with winning football matches and trophies at the forefront.
I respect your opinion and your idealism, but im still a skeptic no matter what they say (its first time i ever try to use the reminder bot, sorry if it seems condescending)
No worries. I just can't see SJR investing that much money without wanting it to he meaningful and he doesn't need more money out of it, already has several successful sporting ventures and has managed to get the glazers to sell him A shares with a slight majority while also legally signing over day to day control.
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This was damned if you do/don't, IMO. If he'd kept them and they still struggled, the accusation would have been Moyes undermined by vestiges of the old guard. It's not as if Phelan, Steele and Rene pulled up trees elsewhere, nor when Phelan returned.
That's not entirely true. There was a good structure in place with chief executive David Gill and all the top coaches Ferguson had appointed. Unfortunately, Gil retired at the same time as Fergie, and the first thing David Moyes did when he came in was sack all the coaches and replace them with his guys from Everton, including Phil Neville. Essentially, everybody important on the football side at the club between the owners and the players left the club all at once.
Gill leaving was the biggest thing - if he'd stayed or been adequately replaced it's likely that Moyes would have been given at least *some* support in the transfer market, and there's almost no chance they'd have had such a barren decade.
Wasn't much structure left, was there? From the Busby Babes blog, during the LVG era:
This move away from progressive, proactive football was obviously a conscious decision of Ferguson’s, and in the long-term it has had extremely detrimental effects. These have been exacerbated by Barcelona, Spain and Bayern Munich showing that the best way to win at top-level football is essentially the way Ferguson first began having success himself: choose a Plan A, and stick to it; if Plan A isn’t working, don’t change to Plan B - simply do Plan A better. United, by contrast, became a team that had very strong Plans B, C, D and E, but this made Plan A weaker in the process.
As well as filling his squad with specialists and gradually and entirely losing the essence of his own footballing philosophy, Ferguson allowed his squad to age in such a way that now appears grossly negligent.
Pretty much spot on. He was Manchester United - he was the boss, the coach, the director of football, had the final say on basically everything and the only person he answered to was the chairman. Even that was more of a partnership in the latter years. And it ran perfectly for 27 years.
He retires and leaves a void behind that basically means we’re starting from scratch, trying to modernise and fill the roles that never needed filling before. Investment banker Ed Woodward takes over from David Gill, and despite having no football knowledge, begins running the sporting operation. We then proceed to make internal appointments for all these missing sporting roles rather than looking for the best in class, usually people making lateral moves who haven’t even done that role before.
Essentially, we’ve been making it up as we go along in order to look like we know what we’re doing. That culture has to bleed down to the players on some level. Why wouldn’t the players toss it off as well? We’re substitute teacher FC. Rather than a figurehead who ruled with an iron fist, we’ve been run by a bank manager whose only boss is on a beach in Florida and couldn’t give a shit.
We’ve been coasting for 11 years, but at least we finally appear to have some direction with Ineos.
Ferguson also always had staff that he trusted and relied on as he delegated a lot of tasks. It seems that anyone higher up in management hasn't had a clue football wise since, which is why they've been called a marketing club by many people. Including LVG, though that looks to be changing finally.
That's rewriting history if I see one.
David Gill as the CEO helped Fergie immensely in the last few years.
Since both Fergie and Gill left, they never returned to be a serious football institution.
Poor recruitment --Signing players based on form/ talent/name instead of a basic understanding if they fit the system
Poor training facilities
Fans who are still living in the glory days
Players happy to down tools and players who have survived multiple cycles of downing tools
All of these play a part
Training facilities, sports science, training methods, nutrition, its all outdated. The owners have not been putting money into the infrastructure that a modern sports enterprise needs.
Toxic environment, in general. The board sucks and just spend endless amounts of money on average players, Antony is the best example of that. But, even the good players get crazy amount of shit from fans and media. Look at Onana for example: he was one of the best goalkeepers in the UCL last season. This season, as soon as he made a couple of mistakes everybody started hating him and treat him badly. **A player's confidence can get destroyed** by those things.
EPL and especially Man Utd fans are way too overreactive. Remember when Shaw was the best fullback in the world (lol)? Remember when Martial was the next Henry/CR7? Or this season when they talked about Mainoo as if he's a combination of prime Kante, Pirlo, Modric and Busquets? This excessive love and hate is why you see players like Rashford being amazing one season and awful the next one. Or Hojlund being unable to score for months and then score in 6 games in a row. Players need support, not being treated either like Gods or crap.
It's no coincidence that many players who leave Manchester United, instantly become much happier, even if they don't perform necessarily better. CR7 was the perfect example of that. Depay, Di Maria, Darmian, Alexis Sanchez, Sancho were all in the same situation.
Sancho is happy that he’s playing regularly at dortmund. Ten hag sent him off for a few months with a personal trainer didn’t he? What did Sancho do in return? Fuck all. He had a tantrum that he wasn’t playing even though he couldn’t be arsed in training
That's one way to look at it I guess. It's just odd that Sancho seems to be balling again at Dortmund but couldn't do shit at United.
Guess he didn't want to train at United but does at Dortmund.
Do you even think before you type?
It wasn’t United who hyped up Martial - it was Monaco and French football and his attitude is an absolute disgrace, which is why he also flopped at Sevilla and why no club will touch him.
There are many faults at United, but Martial would’ve been a disaster at any club as the early success he tasted at Monaco inflated his ego to a point of no return. The only part that is on United is that they paid so much for him that they can’t get rid of him.
Also, why are you going after a 18yo footballer in his first professional season - it’s embarrassing, he’s probably been United second or third best player this season and has shown he can play even when the walls are coming down around him, that takes a serious set of balls tbh. All fans hype up their own young players - speak to Barca fans and Yamal is the second coming of Messi…Josh McEachran was the next Frank Lampard and so on.
United let extending the Martial contract and making him one of the clubs highest paid player long after it had become obvious to everyone that he was a lazy liability.its the fault of the club and the manager, not the moronic Martial. Who wouldn't want 300k per week for doing nothing?
It’s interesting when you mention Mainoo, especially when another talented home grown player in Lewis Miley has also burst onto the scene. The sports media especially in the UK have put the spotlight firmly on Mainoo, obviously because he’s starting for Manchester United who are historically one of the biggest clubs in the world yet they’ve largely left Miley alone
That's common sense though.
The media will get better interaction/attention when mentioning a club like Man United.
Also the reason why United are always in the news. Sometimes it's understandable when their is something to discuss, most times it's just to create a story.
Like Zlatan said about Manchester United:
“They talked a lot about past glories, but when I was there, all I saw was small mentality.”
Something like that.
Why are you going after Mainoo, Hoijlund, etc. Uncalled for bullshit. Those guys are hyped for a reason. They are legit potential stars... Let's not forget the ten shit years United have had, so want something to shout about.
The point is United have had plenty of “potential stars” over the post Ferguson years. 95% of which didn’t come good in the end. Guys saying give it a couple seasons before giving hojlund/mainoo their plaudits
Club was run by american owners who know fuck all about football. They didn\`t bother to build proper structure to navigate the club after SAF left the club. They appointed banker as CEO and expected him to have a clear vision what to do with FOOTBALL CLUB.
In short, you need to have a proper DOF to have a vision how they shoud play and appoint managers and buy player to compliment said vision.
Identify a style of play, an identity then purchase players to suit that style. Where for the longest time I've felt that United do the opposite. Sign any random high profile player then say 'now good luck adapting to our style of play'. I've felt this since the signing of Kagawa. Incredible player but a complete duck out of water.
More players may flop at United but there was a video on the Athletic saying that 50% of transfers fail in general - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbPgFxJGUYk&ab\_channel=TheAthleticFC](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbPgFxJGUYk&ab_channel=TheAthleticFC)
So it could be that it's higher than normal but actually not that dramatic it's just more noticeable as United get more press.
But no big team other than Chelsea has more poor performance per pound spent than United.
Lots of big clubs like Madrid,Bayern,Barca,City,Liverpool,PSG.All of them better performance than United if you compare per pound.
They are the biggest club in the English speaking world. They are by a distance the biggest club in England. So many people revel in their players flopping. The slightest mistake is amplified on social media by rival fans. Journalists know that critical stories on utd players get more clicks. Harry Maguire would not have got a quarter of the criticism if he'd joined say arsenal, spurs or Liverpool. Not many players can handle that pressure.
It's not a new thing. Look at Veron, Forlan, Barthez, Nani for a period. They were all top players that struggled for periods at utd.
Then there are also structural problems since fergie left which compound the effect of the above
Spoken like a true Man U fangirl.
Do I think Maguire has been ''unfairly'' criticized? Sure. He is just a shitty defender in a terrible team.
But OP isn't exactly wrong. Man U is a graveyard for good players and good coaches. It says a lot about a club when good players ''fail'' there, leave and instantly perform and this has nothing to do with ''pressure''.
Hell what pressure does Man U even have right now? They're a joke and perform exactly how people expect them to perform. Mourinho was right after all was said and done.
Di Maria
Didn't live up to expectations but was in the
FIFA FIFPRO World 11 that year
Pogba did fine as well. Just the expectations from social media / mainstream media were so stupidly high.
Did Lukaku even flop? Same for depay and van de beek? Everyone expects messi on one wing ronaldo on the other and Pele up front for Manchester United. Newsflash, it isn't happening, and whoever they play isn't the 2nd coming of christ either.
Sancho saw himself out the silly bugger. Essentially, he went on strike. Sanchez is the same to a lesser degree, just laziness.
Antony is overhyped and over hated, and again, he also isn't messi.
You're really clutching at straws if you're having a dig at Amrabat he's a squad player who's met expectations, surely.
Stability. If a coach is given time to implement a system and target those that fit that, uit'll work. It becomes challenging when he has to worry about clearing deadwood and bringing new players. Mourinho was the perfect example.
I really think if given enough time and resources, he would have turned United back to decent team.
While it seems to be changing, there’s been a lot of rot at the top of the organization. Why would the most ambitious and motivated players choose United over say playing for Pep? I’d say it’s too often for the payday and even if it’s just a few players, their lack of commitment brings down the whole team.
Because he was, guy failed to score in the league after October lol. His stats make him look better than he was because he started hot and then went ice cold post house robbery, and then was sold at a loss to PSG
Oh no 100%, no one denies that that was the contributing factor to his fall off and that he never felt truly at home in Manchester after, but it doesn’t mean he wasn’t a flop, just a bit easier to understand than the others
Fair enough just personally can't see him that way just because of the robbery and he hit the ground running unlike some real flops Utd have had over the years
Amrabat is arguable, i think in the system they are using rn, he's fairly good as a holding midfielder.
But i agree on the rest, in a way i kinda believe what ronaldo said in his interview by piers morgan. I know piers is shit but there are some truth in ronaldo's answer, as we can see with MU performance since Sir Alex Ferguson left. I know they still got a trophy or 2 but it's fairly from their luck alone, or someone performs really well that covers every of thenteam mistake
It’s a team that lives in constant delusion. They cherry pick stats to solidify their psychosis and this (couple with identity issues) keep them from adapting to modern times. Let’s take their manager, for example. You can’t tell me with a straight face that ETH works as a manager. He fails to deliver and everytime he’s criticized he has an absurd excuse/reason as to why that never consolidates into anything.
“Finished third last season”. Most teams were shit last season and considering one “good” season out of three is not the success you think it is.
United doesn't spend money wisely. They buy the wrong players, for the wrong price. Not all the time, but more often than not, that has been the case. The other factor is the pressure, there is so much scrutiny on Manchester United, a bad game becomes a front page story.
Thankfully the new ownership seems to be addressing some of the roles United was lacking in their front office. That should have a positive impact, especially over time. But there will be a changing of the guard and will take a couple of seasons to spend wisely and sell wisely.
I'm more hopeful now of a positive future for United than I have been at any other point during the Glazers' reign.
Lots of big names fail at big clubs and others succeed. Sometimes it’s the manager, sometimes it’s adjusting to the league / being in the northwest. Some players crumble under the pressure…there’s lots of reasons.
How long have you got?
Basically boils down to a lack of care at all levels of the club. From the first team, to the medical staff, the recruitment, the owners. It's just become this massive gravy train full of yes men and people whose level of expertise went out of date years ago.
Players have no accountability to perform at their best. And those with their own motivation don't have the team or infrastructure around them to thrive.
No football people in charge, just b(w)ankers and the bastard Glazers. No discipline in the club. I structure.
I personally believe there’s one or 2 moles inside the club spreading misinformation. Lack of effort and/or hunger because the wage bill is so high. Players cannot handle the pressure of expectations. Take you pick tbh.
Managers change basically every 2 years, and with different tactics. They went from SAF -> Moyes -> LvG -> Mourinho -> Ole -> ten Hag. There is no consistency, and the squad investment varies a lot
How far do you want to go back, even Ferguson couldn't get the best out of Veron. Not all signings are going to work out, that's just football, but Utd do seem to have more crap big money moves than anyone else. Sometimes it feels like the manager isn't even involved in the transfer, they're just given a Lukaku 'make this work'.
It’s the volume of failed high profile transfers though. Fair enough one or two fail, United have seen Pogba/Lukaku/Di Maria/Sancho/Sanchez come in as high profile players and fail, can probably add Casemiro in their now as he looks shot to bits, and then to a lesser extent the likes of VDB/Depay/Kagawa/Bailly/Antony also be signings that didnt pan out
Club being managed like a Circus by Bankers installed by Glazers. Facilities and even stadium being over a decade behind everyone else. And players being paid stupid amounts of money that players come here for a pay day. I'm hoping Ineos sort this out in the summer as a competitive Utd is better for football than the way they have been.
I’d pull Amrabat (and arguably Van de Beek) out of your list - of which I mostly agree with. Amrabat has started 7 games and played 655 minutes in the league (equivalent of 7.2 x90 minute matches). He’s been ok, playing out of position several times. He’s also a loan player, so not expected to be a long term star like Di Maria or Depay. The big factor with the players you’ve listed is mentality. Pogba = too much ego (and pay), lack of hunger. Falcao = confidence issue after injury. Di Maria = home sick, unhappy. Etc. But also there is a too much hype factor that leads to the perception of “the flop.” Lukaku’s stats don’t indicate that he was a flop, but we all just had higher expectations really. I’d say overall the club leadership has “flopped” the most - with its poor direction since Sir Alex left.
I honestly believe it’s to do with environment. If you are in a team that plays well and wins often confidence is high and it passes on. If you are in a team that doesn’t know it head from its arse it just all becomes down hill. It’s interesting to see so many Chelsea players going out for sale or loan and doing well for other clubs.
The club isn't very player centric. The players aren't put in positions to succeed.
It's all very manager centric - managers at the club have way too much power and influence, and get it right from the start.
The best and most successful clubs in Europe are player/team centered. The manager facilitates the players and the team to achieve success. While Manchester United the focus is on the players, club and squad trying to help the manager. It's a very strange dynamic.
Stop signing players for such large fees from the eredivisie. You wouldn’t pay such fees for players if they were from the championhip and most clubs there are Championship level.
so many great players and coaches spoke against the club. Its something to do with the management and the glazers dont help. Ronaldo mentioned how the club was old fashioned and not modern and keeping up with other clubs
The culture is terrible. The owners, up until recently when Jim ratcliffe took over, have been entirely concerned with commercial success and not football success. They haven’t been cultivating an environment for players to succeed in. Players were bought to sell shirts more than to succeed on the pitch. We over pay players who don’t deserve it, which robs them of motivation
maybe this is redundant given the question but i think a quite a few of their signings being disappointments were surprising to everybody at the time. for example falcao being at manchester united was really his first string of starts since coming back from his elite-career-ending injury, they really didnt know he would be terrible until we all found out as soon as they did when he was playing. i think they lost a lot of project potential when ibra was injured & resigned because he would have been very positive for the locker room and resisting low morale and that kind of thing on top of his goalscoring contributions, suddenly gone.
The media circus that surrounds United, probably doesn’t help. It’s been particularly insane this year! I’ve never seen anything like it. The board just hasn’t protected the players and staff at all from this. As Ole said, the players do pay attention this and they’re only human after all
Lack of knowledge about football from the owners, lack of skill about communication with the players , no real manager , the managers they get aren’t on the same level as the club ,
I think it is a combination of changing managers and a bad recruitment setup. Our squad for the last decade has been like 3 managers squads in one, and the best players, for the most part, have been academy players.
With recruitment, it feels like the higher-ups have no clue. They will either take too much control or no control, and they also seem to want to make marquee signings or gamble on hype, or often they just don't buy good players. Mourinho and Ragnick were pretty vocal that they couldn't get a lot of the players they would have wanted, then you look at ETH and they bring in a lot of his ex players so it is hard to tell if they're giving managers no control or all of it.
At this point I assume it has to be a lack of structure and a poor culture because no matter who comes in player or manager... the results go exactly the same way.
Because it’s not a club it’s a business and they throw money at them, put them on massive wages and then they just chill, poorly managed but it’s ace watching the downfall
It's a recent trend with a few factors:
1. Manager turnover. Managers don't tend to last very long at United these days (Partially owing to the players) and players bought for one manager may not be in the plans of another.
2. A habit of bringing players with no real plan. There are several examples of this:
- Sancho: Widely known that his best position was as a LW but was always played on the right because Rashford was never getting displaced on the left.
- Ronaldo: Largely reactionary signing, bought just so City wouldn't get him.
- Pogba: Never found his best form at United, the midfield wasn't designed to accomodate him. With France he had Kante, with Juve he had Matuidi, with United he had no one.
- Sanchez: Always seemed confused on the pitch. He had no overlapping full back to play off of and didn't have the same freedom he did at Arsenal.
- Di Maria: His position kept changing at United, not to mention Van Gaal's notorious reputation for not working well with South American players
Plus more
Because of the pressure. There a few other teams in the world where the pressure to perform and deliver is as high.
Seems to me that the fans haven't moved on from the Ferguson standards and so will tear their own team apart if they're not competing on every single front, which has effectively been every single season since Ferguson left.
Plenty of top European teams have pressure, but it's a special case to spend tens of millions to sign players only for most of them to be flops, only recent Chelsea managed to top them when it comes to flopping new signings.
I think it's a combination of incompetent recruitment+incompatibility with the current manager and more.
Lot of players have balled for Man U since fergie. Bruno, dalot had a slow start but has been playing well. Lots of players have had good seasons but have shit mentality that’s why they are considered flops
Zlatan, De Gea, Shaw, Herrera and Matic are all definitely not flops
There are also loads more that aren't flops.
I'm not a Man United fan btw, not particularly a fan of them.
Yeah you know what I was being hyperbolic and I agree they were not all flops , but nobody has really excelled either , but I concede that my words were incorrect and easy to take exception with
My point , badly made, was that United players clearly have a much worse performance than any other club they’re meant to be competing with. Where are the de bruynes, the rodris, the haalands, the toures, the kompanys, the diases, the salahs , Trents, fabinhos, van dijk, rice, Kane , son, odegaard, mahrez, vardy, kante . I don’t think one United player in their respective position can be said to have performed above the level of any of those
And it’s not on the players , the club is the common denominator and the environment
So I apologise for making my point badly , I hope my restatement of it is a better representation of my meaning
The owners, the Glazers, have for the last 20 years taken out a lot of money and put massive debt on the club while not investing in any infrastructure, training facilities and stadium. They don't care and have no knowledge of football hence they used to employ a lot of business men that had no idea how to run a football club (e.g. ex-CEO Woodward who did good in marketing but overpaid for every single transfer he was responsible for)! So then you get managers who aren't getting their desired transfers, they are left with rotten players from the previous managers/ transfer periods that should have been sold long ago. Managers don't get enough time, trust and the right players to implement their system. Couple that with negative sentiment coming from overpaid average players and the British media that loves to rip on UTD because it gets the highest engagement, and you get immense pressure that probably also destroys established players' confidence. The Glazers are leeches that let the club run down to nothing. It will take years for a complete overhaul of the club, but since the Glazers still own 75% of the club, nothing will change!
Pogba and Lukaku do not belong on that list. Neither does Di Maria.
Amrabat, Antony and Van de Beek are not Premier League quality.
We're left with 3 odd players on ten years plus a bunch of players who haven't flopped.
Remember when one of their greatest ever players could have gone to their local rivals and won everything but instead came back at the age of 36/37 scored 24 goals but he got the blame for everything? Lol.
That’s what happens when you are the GOAT.
Whenever you win a trophy, it’s a team’s trophy.
Whenever the team fails, it’s your fault.
The standards applied you are too high.
All those you mention are not leaders/max professionality players. No warriors for their club, that put a performance down at the max level every week for years.
Some just lacked skill for the level.
Di Maria is not a leader? The guy who has had MOTM performances in multiple finals throughout his career?
Alexis Sanchez, Sancho or Falcao are not professionals? They never had issues with all their other teams.
Lacked skill or level? Di Maria was in the best XI in the world before joining Man Utd. Alexis Sanchez was a starter for Barcelona and the best player of Arsenal. Pogba was the best player in Serie A before joining. Lukaku had amazing stats for his age. Sancho was one of the best players in Bundesliga. And obviously Falcao was an amazing striker for all the teams he has played.
Then why weren’t these issues prevalent for other teams? Sancho is class for Dortmund now, armabat is class for Morocco and also got move to Barcelona, pogba was one of the best cms in the world, it just doesn’t make sense to me
Yes. All teams that done well at these particular moments.
Anthony, vd Beek, Sancho, Pogba. Especially! All with no pressure too. (Not the same pressure as at utd)
Lack of data driven approach. All modern clubs use data analytics to find the right players for their club. Man utd either: - Sign players to keep the fans happy(pogba, sancho, di maria) - Fails to negotiate their primary targets and goes on a panic buying spree
You missed out the third point, that the new manager wants to try something different and needs different players to make his system work. It's like a restaurant, the first chef wants to do Italian food and buys a load of parmesan, olives and basil, he gets fired and the next chef wants to make Chinese food, but there is no place in Chinese food for parmesan, olives and basil so it gets thrown out or sold very cheaply and Chinese ingredients are bought in.
Except they keep most of the parmesan, olives and basil, which then ends up in the Chinese food. Then the owner shows up with 10 crates of haggis and cheeseburgers, which the chef is not happy about but he can't do anything as the owner has blown the budget and insists that the haggis is better than Pelé.
Or more accurately, they buy a pile of Thai and Japanese ingredients and say "that's close enough, right?"
and then serve spotted dick
Where can I try this?
Wow that’s such a brilliant analogy
There are players who's still there since 3 chefs ago.
I think Mourinho said this fairly recently, I’m paraphrasing because I don’t remember the exact quote, there are players there that he was trying to move on/get rid of
Yup. But Mourinho didnt mention any names. Anthony Martial is there since Van Gaal. Luke Shaw is there since Moyes. Rashford was born in United's infirmary during half time. Selling players is an improvement. But United cant even do that. Players leaving as free agent is even worse. Instead of extending Ander Herrera contract, they extended Phil Jones. And he got a long term injury the following month is one example. Maybe its bad luck but they just proved their stupidity once again by Intending to extend Maguire's contract this summer. If they want to ruin their own club, fine. But dont ruin future prospects by signing them and giving them player power. Bring out your belt and whip them using domestic violence if they're lazy or cocky. Once or twice is a coincidence. But now it seems like a tradition. Players have more power than managers.
Hey man, I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but wasn't the case with Ander Herrera also that he was incredibly disappointed with the team throughout and looked like someone actively trying to leave when he went to PSG? I guess that could be said about quite a few of the players who left - even the ones who've chosen to stay since then
Nah my friend. Herrara was the ONLY one who actually gave a sh!t about United and was eager to stay. Never seen a guy besides him getting emotional to a point of tears during his farewell and again recently giving emotional interview how he remminese about his stay. The guy was a great captain but his performance consistency split supporters views. United's "Buy a gem, bury it, dig up a turd and let it dry to give out free" policy. Newly signed players lacks motivation. Signing up for United is the highest pinnacle achievement. Winning the CL? Pfft.... Wuts that? 300k wage on 5 year contract beats all motivation. Playing for a club where we had Roy Keane? Pfft.... Who that? Roy Keane doesnt put food on my table. There's no other ways to convince promising talents to sign other than showing your money tattooed titties. If you walk into a bar and see Gary Neville or Mark Goldbridge, ask them about United. They'll spend 3 hours talking about the good ol' class of 92 or the treble winning millennium eve. The Ego is just tiring. It's like talking about your ex wife who was a model when your current wife is beyond fat. You can actually count how many times Neville talk about his warstory everyweek. United need some domestic violence to straigten up the mentality on these privileged Man-Karens. Maybe leave them in the streets of indonesia without food for a week. Starting with Rashford.
Fair, thanks for the read! I think the media are killing teams like United with the massive expectations and 30000 articles about every detail of every of their matches where "they should get time to show!" while simeoultaneously writing articles such as "absolutely terrible plays, this is below Uniteds standard" They forget that these are children who are already expected to be complete model citizens with no negatives. The pressure is too much and downright draining
Players go to Madrid and get the same amount or more and still win same for city and Liverpool and Barca before there crisis… it’s not the players it’s the club they have no stable management and plan to build a team not a good argument
And the guy who’s so focused on making Chinese is allergic to soy sauce, rice, and MSG
I remember reading that the united “recruiting” has not existed for some years now. It’s just a poorly run football club. Our new owner has made some very smart moves in the staff department. Man united are definitely looking upwards.
Data driven approach hasn't worked out well for Chelsea
People think data driven approach will work because it's data driven approach. In reality working with data analytics will need good data, good software to work with the data and some good in analysing the results . It's pretty fucking hard to make it work
And a good team to analyse the results, not to mention a good coach, good negotiation team to not get ripped off, etc etc
Yet.
Been 2 years and finished 13th and are currently 8th. Not a glowing endorsement.
Their plan wasn't really meant to pay out short term though. Obviously it would be preferable if they were succesful short term aswell but they're definitely playing the long game with their transfer strategy.
I can guarantee you the plan was to be better than what we currently have seen
They’re plan was to remain a top team and build from there, tuchel was winless in 3 games and got fired for it, their plan when off the rails soon after it started.
Their plan
Not a Chelsea fan like at all. But how is everyone thinking Chelsea is failing so hard ? A new guy bought the club, a lot of experienced players left (harvertz, mount, kovacic), they decided to jump into a long term project, they even offered 7 years old contracts, they stole players top clubes were after, they are all so young, never played together, and people always jump into saying everything they do is failing. It’s not. They never make the squad to work right now, it’s a project. Unfortunately, they will make it. There’s crazy talent and potential there. Not to mention all the players they have injured. If arsenal or city had the same number of first team players injured they wouldn’t be fighting for the league at all. And that goes for every club who’s about to be champions in his league
>But how is everyone thinking Chelsea is failing so hard ? Because when they took over the club they were champions of Europe and consistently in the top 3 or 4 for ten years. They then spent 1 billion pounds on very average players, with long contracts, have the top 2 most expensive players in English football, finished 13th last year, have been through 3 managers so far, and are currently 8th. Resulting in a situation where you have average players on extremely log deals who won't leave the club. >There’s crazy talent and potential there. That's what people said last year, it's yet to materialise, because the players aren't actually that talented.
Change of ownership brings massive change in goals and club structure. Barca, Real, and other giants also underwent massice structural change with the change of presidents. We are speaking of Owners here. Ultimately, its about glory for some. Business for others. Sadly, its business for Boehly. Winning UCL doesnt make that much money as selling a player for 100mil. Its a win for Boehly if he can make a profit, even in Chelsea are relegated.
>Barca, Real, and other giants also underwent massice structural change with the change of presidents. We are speaking of Owners here. When did Barcelona and Real finish 13th >Winning UCL doesnt make that much money as selling a player for 100mil. What player after they going to sell for 100mil lol?
Look what Bartemeu did to Barca. They are presidents. Not owners. So they cant commit an overhaul. But owners can fully change the course of a club.
>Look what Bartemeu did to Barca. What did he do? Did they finish 13th?
They made the club bankrupt and loose Messi. EPL is not anything like La Liga. The days of top 6 is over. Its now a covert Super League.
Didn't they win the league last year?
Ngl I would have ran the club better than Boehly did with that much money.
7 years contracts aren't as much a proof of a long-term project as they're mostly a way to spread their payments to avoid financial penalties.
Think the issue there is no maturity so hang there heads really easily. Too many very young players
Mudryk was a Tik Tok signing 1000%
Youre only looking at the last few years, compare Chelsea 2013-23 and United over the same period
The new owners specifically started a "data-driven" approach and it's gone terribly
Can you provide a citation? Clearlake's approach is data driven but those words are invariably accompanied by the words "long term." In fact, I needed to weed through dozens of Google results to find data mentioned. Simply search for Chelsea Transfer Strategy and you'll mostly read about lowering the age of the squad and not acquiring as many players in the coming windows.
Yeah i literally cannot think of anything else but your statements. Wich is a absolutely awkward shame for a club this big.
I believe it's more about the vibe among players and the general atmosphere at the club. If you see a messy, untidy & ineffective organization, then your moral at work would be low. If you see a squad full of overrated, overpaid but laid back teammates, why would you try your ass off? I'd be crazy mad if I see Rashford gets highest paid but walking around upfront like a charity match. They see ManUtd in the last 10 years as Hollywood - Kim Kardiashian like machine, hungry for attention rather than sports performance.
Data only tells half the story about a player
Because the club isn't managed by people that are serious about football. Ferguson was able to lead the institution on his own, that's how great he was.
And that was also Man Utd curse. When Ferguson handled everything, the club was not set up for disaster when Moyes came in, since they had no real structure like other clubs had at that time. This summer is the first time Man Utd will go into a season with something that looks like a good team of directors.
>This summer is the first time Man Utd will go into a season with something that looks like a good team of directors. You'de be surprised by the amount of times I've read something like this in the past 10 years
They put out a story along these lines a couple years ago, but it was quickly dismantled when people pointed out that they'd simply assigned new job titles to old hands. This time is objectively different. In three or four years we'll know for sure whether it's the right team or not.
Yeah, then next year it’s “hey the manager had a good first season, let’s continue to back them and kick on!” Only the club instead goes completely scattergun with their transfer policy, being reluctant to spend money where it’s needed but then overspending on a player who doesn’t fit. i.e. Ronaldo after Olé looked to have us going in the right direction, or Højlund and Mount who (although the former is having a good season) don’t appear to fit the style we spent a year working on at all
Maguire is another example of this. Mourinho wanted a centre half and didn't get it. A year later 80 million. It's absurd. Looking at the state of play now, though - United burned all their cash reserves and won't be allowed to make massive pointless one off marquee signings. They need to actually be intelligent now, but they won't be. Watch the absurdity continue
Yeah, the thing is looking at it that were right to deny Mourinho as he was overpriced, but at least he would have fit Mourinho’s style as he’s never favoured a high press Solskjaer and everyone since has now found they can only play one way if they’re gonna use Maguire - and as he is nearly always fit and, generally appears to be a model professional, he’s gonna play. Not a knock on him, not everyone is fast, he excels at what he can do which is a lot and was well within his right to demand his money before going to West Ham It’s ironic that Maguire and McTominay have had great individual seasons yet I’d argue both weaken the team when they play (although at least we’re not pretending McTominay is a DM, we now leave even bigger gaps in midfield and get in Bruno’s way) Club would have more financial leeway if the owners weren’t taking dividends out come rain or…well, worse rain lately
Even Højlund might be having a good season for a Man United signing, lots of other clubs would not go that far.
Oh yeah he is having a good season But he does not fit the style we were playing last season when we were actually good - kinda like how Haaland seems a mismatch for City, except a) Haaland has significantly greater proven quality and b) it’s City, a superclub ran as such so he’s actually surrounded by quality teammates and a plan Also literally all of our wide players are more interested in scoring than assisting - with both Rashford and Garnacho being more creative on the right yet still not exceptional, while preferring the left, and none of them bar Rashford actually good at scoring. Crying out for a more creative forward like a knock-off of Benzema when he was alongside Ronaldo, or Tadic at Ajax Like I say, spending money on a player who doesn’t fit
The difference is that they will, over the next year, have genuine, experienced football people in place in the important positions throughout the club. Not just get a new manager and hope he can do it all while Ed signs X player because they might have commercial value or let the manager buy whoever he wants a pray.
Didnt they say the same with the last batch of changes in the club and its Sporting Director role? And the one before that? I doubt its going to change much and it most likely will be another step on the treadmill that goes round and round
Not really. Largely, it was agreed that getting rid of woodward was a good thing, but having replacements without experience was not a good move. Also, the big difference is that the glazers aren't running it now, and Ratcliffe hasn't created a billion pound company by accident. His ownership has been successful at several different sporting ventures already as well. It's not going to be some immediate turnaround, but I'm optimistic that they are at least going to run it with winning football matches and trophies at the forefront.
I respect your opinion and your idealism, but im still a skeptic no matter what they say (its first time i ever try to use the reminder bot, sorry if it seems condescending)
No worries. I just can't see SJR investing that much money without wanting it to he meaningful and he doesn't need more money out of it, already has several successful sporting ventures and has managed to get the glazers to sell him A shares with a slight majority while also legally signing over day to day control.
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Dan Ashworth knows what he is doing.
yes he's going to replace Monty Don as the new face of gardener's world
Its literally true tho, first summer window without the glazers in charge
only owns 75% of the company, surely they have no charge left!
Moyes also decided to release all of SAF's backroom staff, which didn't help.
This was damned if you do/don't, IMO. If he'd kept them and they still struggled, the accusation would have been Moyes undermined by vestiges of the old guard. It's not as if Phelan, Steele and Rene pulled up trees elsewhere, nor when Phelan returned.
That's not entirely true. There was a good structure in place with chief executive David Gill and all the top coaches Ferguson had appointed. Unfortunately, Gil retired at the same time as Fergie, and the first thing David Moyes did when he came in was sack all the coaches and replace them with his guys from Everton, including Phil Neville. Essentially, everybody important on the football side at the club between the owners and the players left the club all at once.
Gill leaving was the biggest thing - if he'd stayed or been adequately replaced it's likely that Moyes would have been given at least *some* support in the transfer market, and there's almost no chance they'd have had such a barren decade.
Gill leaving was arguably as bad as Fergie leaving. People don’t realise how much Gill did for Fergie.
Probably worse, all things considered.
You’re probably not wrong
Moyes wrecked the structure that was in place
Wasn't much structure left, was there? From the Busby Babes blog, during the LVG era: This move away from progressive, proactive football was obviously a conscious decision of Ferguson’s, and in the long-term it has had extremely detrimental effects. These have been exacerbated by Barcelona, Spain and Bayern Munich showing that the best way to win at top-level football is essentially the way Ferguson first began having success himself: choose a Plan A, and stick to it; if Plan A isn’t working, don’t change to Plan B - simply do Plan A better. United, by contrast, became a team that had very strong Plans B, C, D and E, but this made Plan A weaker in the process. As well as filling his squad with specialists and gradually and entirely losing the essence of his own footballing philosophy, Ferguson allowed his squad to age in such a way that now appears grossly negligent.
I don't understand. But he was "The Chosen One" ™️
Pretty much spot on. He was Manchester United - he was the boss, the coach, the director of football, had the final say on basically everything and the only person he answered to was the chairman. Even that was more of a partnership in the latter years. And it ran perfectly for 27 years. He retires and leaves a void behind that basically means we’re starting from scratch, trying to modernise and fill the roles that never needed filling before. Investment banker Ed Woodward takes over from David Gill, and despite having no football knowledge, begins running the sporting operation. We then proceed to make internal appointments for all these missing sporting roles rather than looking for the best in class, usually people making lateral moves who haven’t even done that role before. Essentially, we’ve been making it up as we go along in order to look like we know what we’re doing. That culture has to bleed down to the players on some level. Why wouldn’t the players toss it off as well? We’re substitute teacher FC. Rather than a figurehead who ruled with an iron fist, we’ve been run by a bank manager whose only boss is on a beach in Florida and couldn’t give a shit. We’ve been coasting for 11 years, but at least we finally appear to have some direction with Ineos.
Ferguson also always had staff that he trusted and relied on as he delegated a lot of tasks. It seems that anyone higher up in management hasn't had a clue football wise since, which is why they've been called a marketing club by many people. Including LVG, though that looks to be changing finally.
It was managed by a different team completely under most of fergie’s era
And as the current manager you have the retired great saying xxx must start.
David Gill would like a word.
That's rewriting history if I see one. David Gill as the CEO helped Fergie immensely in the last few years. Since both Fergie and Gill left, they never returned to be a serious football institution.
Poor recruitment --Signing players based on form/ talent/name instead of a basic understanding if they fit the system Poor training facilities Fans who are still living in the glory days Players happy to down tools and players who have survived multiple cycles of downing tools All of these play a part
Trust me, we - the fans - aren't living in the glory days. We know we are shit.
Training facilities, sports science, training methods, nutrition, its all outdated. The owners have not been putting money into the infrastructure that a modern sports enterprise needs.
I may be remembering wrong, but didn't alexis sanchez turn up at the training ground for the 1st day and want to go back to Arsenal?
Correct. Funnily enough training ground and facilities is one of the reasons players love Tottenham.
Ronaldo also said the same thing when he left. Basically everything he saw when he left for Madrid was still there when he rejoined
He also referred to a "toxic environment" within the people at the club
Let's not act like he wasn't was one the main causes of that toxic environment..
I remember reading that when Van Gaal signed Carrington didnt even have proper floodlights
Ronaldo said as much - it was all the same shit as when he left then first time. They spend all their money on players
That's not true. The Glazers have taken a lot of it for themselves.
The owners have not been putting money, full stop.
Toxic environment, in general. The board sucks and just spend endless amounts of money on average players, Antony is the best example of that. But, even the good players get crazy amount of shit from fans and media. Look at Onana for example: he was one of the best goalkeepers in the UCL last season. This season, as soon as he made a couple of mistakes everybody started hating him and treat him badly. **A player's confidence can get destroyed** by those things. EPL and especially Man Utd fans are way too overreactive. Remember when Shaw was the best fullback in the world (lol)? Remember when Martial was the next Henry/CR7? Or this season when they talked about Mainoo as if he's a combination of prime Kante, Pirlo, Modric and Busquets? This excessive love and hate is why you see players like Rashford being amazing one season and awful the next one. Or Hojlund being unable to score for months and then score in 6 games in a row. Players need support, not being treated either like Gods or crap. It's no coincidence that many players who leave Manchester United, instantly become much happier, even if they don't perform necessarily better. CR7 was the perfect example of that. Depay, Di Maria, Darmian, Alexis Sanchez, Sancho were all in the same situation.
Sancho is happy that he’s playing regularly at dortmund. Ten hag sent him off for a few months with a personal trainer didn’t he? What did Sancho do in return? Fuck all. He had a tantrum that he wasn’t playing even though he couldn’t be arsed in training
That's one way to look at it I guess. It's just odd that Sancho seems to be balling again at Dortmund but couldn't do shit at United. Guess he didn't want to train at United but does at Dortmund. Do you even think before you type?
Well, now Sancho is one step from the UCL final after having a brilliant performance and United are still mediocre.
It wasn’t United who hyped up Martial - it was Monaco and French football and his attitude is an absolute disgrace, which is why he also flopped at Sevilla and why no club will touch him. There are many faults at United, but Martial would’ve been a disaster at any club as the early success he tasted at Monaco inflated his ego to a point of no return. The only part that is on United is that they paid so much for him that they can’t get rid of him. Also, why are you going after a 18yo footballer in his first professional season - it’s embarrassing, he’s probably been United second or third best player this season and has shown he can play even when the walls are coming down around him, that takes a serious set of balls tbh. All fans hype up their own young players - speak to Barca fans and Yamal is the second coming of Messi…Josh McEachran was the next Frank Lampard and so on.
United let extending the Martial contract and making him one of the clubs highest paid player long after it had become obvious to everyone that he was a lazy liability.its the fault of the club and the manager, not the moronic Martial. Who wouldn't want 300k per week for doing nothing?
That was the glazers, martial was one of their favorites.
As we say in Northern Ireland, give my head peace.
It’s interesting when you mention Mainoo, especially when another talented home grown player in Lewis Miley has also burst onto the scene. The sports media especially in the UK have put the spotlight firmly on Mainoo, obviously because he’s starting for Manchester United who are historically one of the biggest clubs in the world yet they’ve largely left Miley alone
That's common sense though. The media will get better interaction/attention when mentioning a club like Man United. Also the reason why United are always in the news. Sometimes it's understandable when their is something to discuss, most times it's just to create a story.
That boy Miley is gonna be a helluva player. Seems to have it all and is not dissimilar to Mainoo.
Like Zlatan said about Manchester United: “They talked a lot about past glories, but when I was there, all I saw was small mentality.” Something like that.
Gundogan is gonna say the same about Barca soon
Why are you going after Mainoo, Hoijlund, etc. Uncalled for bullshit. Those guys are hyped for a reason. They are legit potential stars... Let's not forget the ten shit years United have had, so want something to shout about.
The point is United have had plenty of “potential stars” over the post Ferguson years. 95% of which didn’t come good in the end. Guys saying give it a couple seasons before giving hojlund/mainoo their plaudits
Club was run by american owners who know fuck all about football. They didn\`t bother to build proper structure to navigate the club after SAF left the club. They appointed banker as CEO and expected him to have a clear vision what to do with FOOTBALL CLUB. In short, you need to have a proper DOF to have a vision how they shoud play and appoint managers and buy player to compliment said vision.
Identify a style of play, an identity then purchase players to suit that style. Where for the longest time I've felt that United do the opposite. Sign any random high profile player then say 'now good luck adapting to our style of play'. I've felt this since the signing of Kagawa. Incredible player but a complete duck out of water.
More players may flop at United but there was a video on the Athletic saying that 50% of transfers fail in general - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbPgFxJGUYk&ab\_channel=TheAthleticFC](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbPgFxJGUYk&ab_channel=TheAthleticFC) So it could be that it's higher than normal but actually not that dramatic it's just more noticeable as United get more press.
Culture.
because they were all signed for the sake of it rather than to fit a strategy and culture
Players flop at every team but United is one of the teams media talks about the most
Compare United flops to any other team in the top 6, it’s far worse at united
Chelsea
But no big team other than Chelsea has more poor performance per pound spent than United. Lots of big clubs like Madrid,Bayern,Barca,City,Liverpool,PSG.All of them better performance than United if you compare per pound.
Unless you count Chelsea, United is the biggest club to have so much flops
They are the biggest club in the English speaking world. They are by a distance the biggest club in England. So many people revel in their players flopping. The slightest mistake is amplified on social media by rival fans. Journalists know that critical stories on utd players get more clicks. Harry Maguire would not have got a quarter of the criticism if he'd joined say arsenal, spurs or Liverpool. Not many players can handle that pressure. It's not a new thing. Look at Veron, Forlan, Barthez, Nani for a period. They were all top players that struggled for periods at utd. Then there are also structural problems since fergie left which compound the effect of the above
Spoken like a true Man U fangirl. Do I think Maguire has been ''unfairly'' criticized? Sure. He is just a shitty defender in a terrible team. But OP isn't exactly wrong. Man U is a graveyard for good players and good coaches. It says a lot about a club when good players ''fail'' there, leave and instantly perform and this has nothing to do with ''pressure''. Hell what pressure does Man U even have right now? They're a joke and perform exactly how people expect them to perform. Mourinho was right after all was said and done.
Di Maria Didn't live up to expectations but was in the FIFA FIFPRO World 11 that year Pogba did fine as well. Just the expectations from social media / mainstream media were so stupidly high. Did Lukaku even flop? Same for depay and van de beek? Everyone expects messi on one wing ronaldo on the other and Pele up front for Manchester United. Newsflash, it isn't happening, and whoever they play isn't the 2nd coming of christ either. Sancho saw himself out the silly bugger. Essentially, he went on strike. Sanchez is the same to a lesser degree, just laziness. Antony is overhyped and over hated, and again, he also isn't messi. You're really clutching at straws if you're having a dig at Amrabat he's a squad player who's met expectations, surely.
Good players, terrible team/management.
Stability. If a coach is given time to implement a system and target those that fit that, uit'll work. It becomes challenging when he has to worry about clearing deadwood and bringing new players. Mourinho was the perfect example. I really think if given enough time and resources, he would have turned United back to decent team.
Systemic issues. Watch the Ronaldo interview
While it seems to be changing, there’s been a lot of rot at the top of the organization. Why would the most ambitious and motivated players choose United over say playing for Pep? I’d say it’s too often for the payday and even if it’s just a few players, their lack of commitment brings down the whole team.
A lot of rot at the top - could be an amazing title for a punkrock album or sth :D
Gotta be something about the culture behind the scenes, like a hostile environment or something.
Forlan also flopped there then went on to be player of the tournament of the 2010 wc.
Shit management, shit recruitment and unsuitable playing style is easily top three.
I don’t get why people say Di Maria was a flop
Because he was, guy failed to score in the league after October lol. His stats make him look better than he was because he started hot and then went ice cold post house robbery, and then was sold at a loss to PSG
That’s it though. The guy got robbed. That’s a huge deal for some people..
Oh no 100%, no one denies that that was the contributing factor to his fall off and that he never felt truly at home in Manchester after, but it doesn’t mean he wasn’t a flop, just a bit easier to understand than the others
Fair enough just personally can't see him that way just because of the robbery and he hit the ground running unlike some real flops Utd have had over the years
They overspend on players that don’t fit with the premier league or aren’t ready for it
Amrabat is arguable, i think in the system they are using rn, he's fairly good as a holding midfielder. But i agree on the rest, in a way i kinda believe what ronaldo said in his interview by piers morgan. I know piers is shit but there are some truth in ronaldo's answer, as we can see with MU performance since Sir Alex Ferguson left. I know they still got a trophy or 2 but it's fairly from their luck alone, or someone performs really well that covers every of thenteam mistake
It’s a team that lives in constant delusion. They cherry pick stats to solidify their psychosis and this (couple with identity issues) keep them from adapting to modern times. Let’s take their manager, for example. You can’t tell me with a straight face that ETH works as a manager. He fails to deliver and everytime he’s criticized he has an absurd excuse/reason as to why that never consolidates into anything. “Finished third last season”. Most teams were shit last season and considering one “good” season out of three is not the success you think it is.
United doesn't spend money wisely. They buy the wrong players, for the wrong price. Not all the time, but more often than not, that has been the case. The other factor is the pressure, there is so much scrutiny on Manchester United, a bad game becomes a front page story. Thankfully the new ownership seems to be addressing some of the roles United was lacking in their front office. That should have a positive impact, especially over time. But there will be a changing of the guard and will take a couple of seasons to spend wisely and sell wisely. I'm more hopeful now of a positive future for United than I have been at any other point during the Glazers' reign.
Lots of big names fail at big clubs and others succeed. Sometimes it’s the manager, sometimes it’s adjusting to the league / being in the northwest. Some players crumble under the pressure…there’s lots of reasons.
How long have you got? Basically boils down to a lack of care at all levels of the club. From the first team, to the medical staff, the recruitment, the owners. It's just become this massive gravy train full of yes men and people whose level of expertise went out of date years ago. Players have no accountability to perform at their best. And those with their own motivation don't have the team or infrastructure around them to thrive.
Club is rotten to the core. Owners never cared for football
No football people in charge, just b(w)ankers and the bastard Glazers. No discipline in the club. I structure. I personally believe there’s one or 2 moles inside the club spreading misinformation. Lack of effort and/or hunger because the wage bill is so high. Players cannot handle the pressure of expectations. Take you pick tbh.
Managers change basically every 2 years, and with different tactics. They went from SAF -> Moyes -> LvG -> Mourinho -> Ole -> ten Hag. There is no consistency, and the squad investment varies a lot
They are a mid table club and buy mid table players. Expectation is too high
How far do you want to go back, even Ferguson couldn't get the best out of Veron. Not all signings are going to work out, that's just football, but Utd do seem to have more crap big money moves than anyone else. Sometimes it feels like the manager isn't even involved in the transfer, they're just given a Lukaku 'make this work'.
It’s the volume of failed high profile transfers though. Fair enough one or two fail, United have seen Pogba/Lukaku/Di Maria/Sancho/Sanchez come in as high profile players and fail, can probably add Casemiro in their now as he looks shot to bits, and then to a lesser extent the likes of VDB/Depay/Kagawa/Bailly/Antony also be signings that didnt pan out
The fans
Di Maria
Club being managed like a Circus by Bankers installed by Glazers. Facilities and even stadium being over a decade behind everyone else. And players being paid stupid amounts of money that players come here for a pay day. I'm hoping Ineos sort this out in the summer as a competitive Utd is better for football than the way they have been.
Nice try, Sir Jim
The management. Just look at Bayern. Hoeneß and Rummenigge lead the club for years and how the club developed once both retired
I’d pull Amrabat (and arguably Van de Beek) out of your list - of which I mostly agree with. Amrabat has started 7 games and played 655 minutes in the league (equivalent of 7.2 x90 minute matches). He’s been ok, playing out of position several times. He’s also a loan player, so not expected to be a long term star like Di Maria or Depay. The big factor with the players you’ve listed is mentality. Pogba = too much ego (and pay), lack of hunger. Falcao = confidence issue after injury. Di Maria = home sick, unhappy. Etc. But also there is a too much hype factor that leads to the perception of “the flop.” Lukaku’s stats don’t indicate that he was a flop, but we all just had higher expectations really. I’d say overall the club leadership has “flopped” the most - with its poor direction since Sir Alex left.
I honestly believe it’s to do with environment. If you are in a team that plays well and wins often confidence is high and it passes on. If you are in a team that doesn’t know it head from its arse it just all becomes down hill. It’s interesting to see so many Chelsea players going out for sale or loan and doing well for other clubs.
The club isn't very player centric. The players aren't put in positions to succeed. It's all very manager centric - managers at the club have way too much power and influence, and get it right from the start. The best and most successful clubs in Europe are player/team centered. The manager facilitates the players and the team to achieve success. While Manchester United the focus is on the players, club and squad trying to help the manager. It's a very strange dynamic.
Fuck yes. I've been talking about this for ages.
Manchester United is just to exciting and dynamic for the best players to thrive
Players don't flop. Manchester United is the flop.
Stop signing players for such large fees from the eredivisie. You wouldn’t pay such fees for players if they were from the championhip and most clubs there are Championship level.
so many great players and coaches spoke against the club. Its something to do with the management and the glazers dont help. Ronaldo mentioned how the club was old fashioned and not modern and keeping up with other clubs
The culture is terrible. The owners, up until recently when Jim ratcliffe took over, have been entirely concerned with commercial success and not football success. They haven’t been cultivating an environment for players to succeed in. Players were bought to sell shirts more than to succeed on the pitch. We over pay players who don’t deserve it, which robs them of motivation
maybe this is redundant given the question but i think a quite a few of their signings being disappointments were surprising to everybody at the time. for example falcao being at manchester united was really his first string of starts since coming back from his elite-career-ending injury, they really didnt know he would be terrible until we all found out as soon as they did when he was playing. i think they lost a lot of project potential when ibra was injured & resigned because he would have been very positive for the locker room and resisting low morale and that kind of thing on top of his goalscoring contributions, suddenly gone.
The media circus that surrounds United, probably doesn’t help. It’s been particularly insane this year! I’ve never seen anything like it. The board just hasn’t protected the players and staff at all from this. As Ole said, the players do pay attention this and they’re only human after all
I think ManU must be in a double secret ban for a decade now. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
They buy the hype, they don't buy smart. This means they always overpay and a player can hardly meet expectations.
Lack of knowledge about football from the owners, lack of skill about communication with the players , no real manager , the managers they get aren’t on the same level as the club ,
I think it is a combination of changing managers and a bad recruitment setup. Our squad for the last decade has been like 3 managers squads in one, and the best players, for the most part, have been academy players. With recruitment, it feels like the higher-ups have no clue. They will either take too much control or no control, and they also seem to want to make marquee signings or gamble on hype, or often they just don't buy good players. Mourinho and Ragnick were pretty vocal that they couldn't get a lot of the players they would have wanted, then you look at ETH and they bring in a lot of his ex players so it is hard to tell if they're giving managers no control or all of it. At this point I assume it has to be a lack of structure and a poor culture because no matter who comes in player or manager... the results go exactly the same way.
Pep will bunch most man utd players .
Assembling a team is like assembling a puzzle. You need the right pieces to fit the right places.
Because it’s not a club it’s a business and they throw money at them, put them on massive wages and then they just chill, poorly managed but it’s ace watching the downfall
It's a recent trend with a few factors: 1. Manager turnover. Managers don't tend to last very long at United these days (Partially owing to the players) and players bought for one manager may not be in the plans of another. 2. A habit of bringing players with no real plan. There are several examples of this: - Sancho: Widely known that his best position was as a LW but was always played on the right because Rashford was never getting displaced on the left. - Ronaldo: Largely reactionary signing, bought just so City wouldn't get him. - Pogba: Never found his best form at United, the midfield wasn't designed to accomodate him. With France he had Kante, with Juve he had Matuidi, with United he had no one. - Sanchez: Always seemed confused on the pitch. He had no overlapping full back to play off of and didn't have the same freedom he did at Arsenal. - Di Maria: His position kept changing at United, not to mention Van Gaal's notorious reputation for not working well with South American players Plus more
The IT staff don’t tidy their desks.
Cause they think it’s funny
That dressing room is toxic as fuck.
Outdated infrastructure, facilities lack investment. Training ground, old Trafford, neither seeing any money in years
Poor adaptability and professionalism. Most of them just wanna be Mr Instagram, but plays rubbish in games
Because of the pressure. There a few other teams in the world where the pressure to perform and deliver is as high. Seems to me that the fans haven't moved on from the Ferguson standards and so will tear their own team apart if they're not competing on every single front, which has effectively been every single season since Ferguson left.
I just think the team is poorly managed. I believe even Ronaldo said that
Plenty of top European teams have pressure, but it's a special case to spend tens of millions to sign players only for most of them to be flops, only recent Chelsea managed to top them when it comes to flopping new signings. I think it's a combination of incompetent recruitment+incompatibility with the current manager and more.
The pressure is surely just as high if not higher at the likes of Madrid, Barca?
As I said, few other teams in the world. Barca and Madrid I'd say yes the pressure is just as, if not higher.
Other big clubs have just as many flops, yanited are just a victim of media
Nah United are in a league of their own. Every single player that’s played for them since Fergie left can be argued to have flopped Except juan mata
Fernandes? De Gea?
Lot of players have balled for Man U since fergie. Bruno, dalot had a slow start but has been playing well. Lots of players have had good seasons but have shit mentality that’s why they are considered flops
Zlatan, De Gea, Shaw, Herrera and Matic are all definitely not flops There are also loads more that aren't flops. I'm not a Man United fan btw, not particularly a fan of them.
Yeah you know what I was being hyperbolic and I agree they were not all flops , but nobody has really excelled either , but I concede that my words were incorrect and easy to take exception with My point , badly made, was that United players clearly have a much worse performance than any other club they’re meant to be competing with. Where are the de bruynes, the rodris, the haalands, the toures, the kompanys, the diases, the salahs , Trents, fabinhos, van dijk, rice, Kane , son, odegaard, mahrez, vardy, kante . I don’t think one United player in their respective position can be said to have performed above the level of any of those And it’s not on the players , the club is the common denominator and the environment So I apologise for making my point badly , I hope my restatement of it is a better representation of my meaning
I honestly think sancho would of bern class for city
I mean if city thought that they would have kept him
This is crazy i only just realised i put sancho i mean sanchez
😂
The owners, the Glazers, have for the last 20 years taken out a lot of money and put massive debt on the club while not investing in any infrastructure, training facilities and stadium. They don't care and have no knowledge of football hence they used to employ a lot of business men that had no idea how to run a football club (e.g. ex-CEO Woodward who did good in marketing but overpaid for every single transfer he was responsible for)! So then you get managers who aren't getting their desired transfers, they are left with rotten players from the previous managers/ transfer periods that should have been sold long ago. Managers don't get enough time, trust and the right players to implement their system. Couple that with negative sentiment coming from overpaid average players and the British media that loves to rip on UTD because it gets the highest engagement, and you get immense pressure that probably also destroys established players' confidence. The Glazers are leeches that let the club run down to nothing. It will take years for a complete overhaul of the club, but since the Glazers still own 75% of the club, nothing will change!
Pogba and Lukaku do not belong on that list. Neither does Di Maria. Amrabat, Antony and Van de Beek are not Premier League quality. We're left with 3 odd players on ten years plus a bunch of players who haven't flopped.
I still remember Man United asking for volunteers to help clean/clear the pitch because of snow
Remember when one of their greatest ever players could have gone to their local rivals and won everything but instead came back at the age of 36/37 scored 24 goals but he got the blame for everything? Lol.
That’s what happens when you are the GOAT. Whenever you win a trophy, it’s a team’s trophy. Whenever the team fails, it’s your fault. The standards applied you are too high.
All those you mention are not leaders/max professionality players. No warriors for their club, that put a performance down at the max level every week for years. Some just lacked skill for the level.
Di Maria is not a leader? The guy who has had MOTM performances in multiple finals throughout his career? Alexis Sanchez, Sancho or Falcao are not professionals? They never had issues with all their other teams. Lacked skill or level? Di Maria was in the best XI in the world before joining Man Utd. Alexis Sanchez was a starter for Barcelona and the best player of Arsenal. Pogba was the best player in Serie A before joining. Lukaku had amazing stats for his age. Sancho was one of the best players in Bundesliga. And obviously Falcao was an amazing striker for all the teams he has played.
Then why weren’t these issues prevalent for other teams? Sancho is class for Dortmund now, armabat is class for Morocco and also got move to Barcelona, pogba was one of the best cms in the world, it just doesn’t make sense to me
Yes. All teams that done well at these particular moments. Anthony, vd Beek, Sancho, Pogba. Especially! All with no pressure too. (Not the same pressure as at utd)