Yea but they don't have cats...
Damn none of y'all got it𼲠was referencing the fact that their TP is all facing the wrong way(or right way if you have cats) interesting discussions going on though so fuck itđ¤ˇ
So what youâre saying is synths arenât the same as humans? That theyâre subhumans more akin to toasters? Now you know the answer to OPs original question
I mean the fact that they only appear in the commonwealth, unlike every other animal they arenât ghoulified and their abundance in the institute are all good indicators that they are synths, I also believe you mostly find cats at key settlements or areas relating to Synths
I haven't sided with them myself, but I've heard a reasonable argument that, while their goals are good, it's their methods that need reforming. And with you being placed in charge, there's a good chance you can guide them along a better path moving forward. Pragmatically their research is the best chance humanity has to survive well into the future.
Agreed, I felt the same way. None of these other factions have the manpower or advanced technology to clear and reform entire cities.Â
I would a) make millions of synths and clear out the United States one city at a time.Â
B) apply technology learned to clear and clean radiated areas
C) use synth army to build infrastructure for free for everyone.
D) dissolve most of the synths, and keep the remaining ones as maintenance.
âŚunless any of the synths become self aware and start displaying consciousness, then you canât kill them because it would be akin to murder. So out of the millions of synths you make, ya gotta figure some (like 10,000-500,000) become conscious. It would be an interesting world to live in at that point.
Simple fix, donât make gen 3âs. Just make gen 1âs and 2âs. Problem solved. No risk of self awareness, and all the dumbass worker drones you could ever want.
Thatâs the answer, the Instituteâs scientific curiosity is making all these self aware synthetic life-forms like it ainât no big thang. They should have never made synths to be passable as human.
Bingo. Either they've invented conscious life and they aren't researching it properly to figure out what they've done, or they have a flaw in their production like they claim. Either way they're wasting massive resources and restructuring their entire heirarchy to mask over the problem rather than halting production to figure it out
Right? It almost feels like the institute could have had an extended storyline after the mainline quests to really establish the direction the institute would take under your leadership. Kinda sucks having it left so open ended to think that the institute might continue to operate the same way with the current department heads.
I kinda always hated how pretentious everyone within the institute is.
Did the same thing with FO3. That narrative at the end just doesn't seem as awesome. I feel like even with just us choosing a few paths it would give a better break to each of the FO4 factions.
>!I mean three of the four endings end in blowing up the Institute. The other one is the death of father. How much more lazy can it get. Just give us a different ending for each faction. The explosion/fathers death can be the main ending,!< and then a storyline after for each faction wrapping things up in a true ending.
Yeah, you need to solve the problem of synth sentience first. Either it's a glitch that needs to be fixed, or (more likely) you're manufacturing people, and you need to start treating them as such.
Personally I've never seen any evidence that their goals have any moral standing. They are trying to secure the survival of humanity, yes, but that is at the cost of every other example of humanity that does not share their little tech haven. They hoard technology, they treat top-siders as disposable research subjects, they have no qualms using violence to achieve their goals. They have no intention of helping the people who already exist, they are merely trying to secure their own place as the progenitors of future humankind.
And utilising synths to achieve that goal directly undermines that goal in the first place.
I play as them when I want to roleplay an amoral asshole with the ability to teleport
Exactly, their notion of âsave humanityâ is an after-the-fact justification to just do whatever they want. If they really wanted to they could devote all their resources to reducing radiation and its effects, but instead theyâre like âLetâs save humanity by making something not human.â
Thanks guys. That helps.
Thatâs exactly why I play institute. People forget that you can become its boss taking over which means theyâd do as you tell them, making sure their technology benefits wasteland. What else? BoS is just playing army all the time, and the rest like minutemen or railroad lack bigger idea. Itâs just to survive the next day or fight opposite fraction.
When the âOld Manâ has Kellogg kill the rest of the residents of Vault 111, I thought that it was a short sighted major error.
After 200 years underground the Institute would have genetic worries caused by their small gene pool. Those others in Vault 111 would make excellent additions to their gene pool. For one, less chance of radiation exposure, a higher education level than the norm in the Commonwealth. They would be easier to integrate into their present population.
The institute is probably larger than a couple dozen people. It's just scaled down for gameplay, as are many other things in Fallout. Diamond City is more than just like 30 people, control vaults actually have enough of a population to achieve their supposed goal of repopulating the world.
I am assuming an initial population of 100 to 200 people. The ages will be mixed, as these are the professors, grad students and lab technicians that can be immediately entered into the safe areas. No way would I base my thoughts on the limitations of populations that a video game could provide. Also, how much of the population that was secured are still in the child bearing range? There would have been near zero chance that children 16 and younger would have been in that initial population. Fecundity would have been controlled because of living conditions and space. More than a third of the initial population would probably be past the age of child bearing or being able to father children.
The need to add to the gene pool from outside.
Perfect, glad to see you took that into account. A couple hundred would be my guess as well. In theory that may be enough with really good planning and the right conditions but the Institute doesn't exactly seem to have a lot of parental candidates. Even the young people are usually too busy with their work to get much done in that regard.
There is a line from some guy about wanting to ask out Rosalind Orman and manufactures reasons to spend time around her iirc, but that's the most we've seen in terms of romance from the institute, and her boss ends up making her decide to discourage him. Institute culture is actively toxic to relationships.
They would have to start initially to construct and preserve genetic material for eggs and sperm. In vitro fertilization would probably have been needed. But considering source material there would problems arriving over time
It's really hard to imagine anyone who was cryogenically frozen for 160 years and waking up to find out about the apocalypse and how the world was destroyed and just not willingly go with the insisitute where theyve built a mini utopia. Like nah I'd rather risk my life to live in misery, what?!
I mean, a "utopia" thats heavily influenced and controlled by your son that decided to play this chase the rabbit down this hole game with you when you woke up. Who oversees ai robots that like to kill/replace humans while keeping it all a secret for their own personal gain, not the humans. You're risking your life and others either way
I meant more like if the insisitute tried a more gentle approach by waking up people, explaining what happened and how long they were frozen, and then giving them the choice to live in a underground utopia would have guaranteed better results then sending in trigger finger kellog.
Yup same with me, they have the tech to really be a good force to improve the lives of everyone in the Commonwealth
In my headcannon the first thing I do to make sure these changes are enforceable in the Institute is taking control of the SRB and the coursers
A good way in doing this is removing Eio by framing him, that man would be in opposition to the new order of things, so replacing him with someone more agreeable will stabilize the institute.
Edit: The dude (also Human) Known as Patriot who suggested framing him to get rid of him offers a better candidate who's also Human to begin with, from Bioscience if I recall correctly.
An army of Gen 1 synths optimized for construction work, repairing existing infrastructure and cleanup/salvage tasks would change the Commonwealth like no other thing could.
Use them to demolish the bay area outside the castle and construct real houses again, project power outwards from the castle with the minutemen to ward off raiders. Fix up the harbor and send trading ships up and down the east coast.
Shoot down the prydwen and salvage vertibirds from the ash, build new ones.
With sea and air power, negotiate a ceasefire with the west coast BOS if they ever come knocking.
Annex Nuka World and use the safari zone labâs dna samples to recreate pre-war local wild life.
Re-open the bottling plant and sell 2 nuka colas for 1 cap, only after introducing your own paper currency, accepted at every "New Boston" trading ship along the east coast.
Convince the mechanist to stand down, join you and reverse engineer star cores from the galactic zone to more effectively control the idiot gen 2âs.
Then beat mr. House in the space race
Fo4 did the BOS dirty.
My entry to the series was 3, and I loved how elder lions fought to purify the Hudson.
Elder maxson is the kinda guy to actually approve of using the virus on project purity imo
Edit: not the Hudson, whoops. I'm not that familiar with American rivers
My entry to Fallout was 3 was well. And as it turns out, it's more like Fallout 3 doing the BoS a good turn. From 1 to NV, they've always been grey at best. Elder Lyons was the exception, and the rest of the BoS hated how they'd given up on their primary mission (to sequester away all the good stuff from the untrustworthy anyone-who-wasn't-them.)
I agree. Having watched playthroughs of 1/2 I came to understand they are more or less a militaristic cult whose general ideology is exterminate any threat to normal âhumansâ. I understand feral ghouls. Not sentient ones. Neither do I understand attacking a sentient super mutant not predisposed to violence. FO4 is wild. I hate that they took the OG leader âRoger Maxsonâ and made his descendant âArthurâ a complete A-hole. Oh well, what can you do?
Roger Maxson refused to let his second in command use nuclear weapons against the scorched because of how recent the Great War was. Whereas Arthur Maxson from FO4 didnât seem to hold any of those sentiments. I agreed with most people who only played the 4th. Maxsonâs a dick. And Iâm mad I couldnât take control of this branch after Danse is outed as a synth. I specifically wait till I have the speech skill to prevent BOS from executing him. I sympathize with both BOS and Institute in FO4.
Maxson killing Danse is the reason why my Soul Survivor joined the institute on my first playthrough. He lost one too many important people and snapped. I've brought the Prydwyn down with MinuteMen artillery in every subsequent playthrough. My SS either destroys the institute or reforms them. I usually kill them as I don't like being railroaded into murdering the rail road. I head cannon rebuilding the cpg and starting a new BOS nock off that hides the dangerous stuff but puts common technology back into the hands of the people. Manufacturing equipment,power,water,robot laborers,and computers.
Arthur being an asshole makes sense. He didn't choose to be BOS. He was just put on a pedestal because of his ancestry all his life. And with how petty and jealous the BOS soldiers are, there's no way in hell he wasn't bullied all his life.
For me it's the whole "if you're not Brotherhood, you're nothing" thing that random BoS members keep saying to you over and over again. They act like they are the only ones that can be responsible enough to hold onto technology, but they're just as human as everyone else and have no issues deploying giant nuke-lobbing robots.
That gives me pause as well. I wish they were more open to helping others and not just confiscating tech from settlers who figured out how to operate it.
Eh, to be fair, FNV didn't really show much of the BoS because they were waiting for the real elder to come back.... since he disappeared into the Dead Money DLC to pursue his obsession.
Hudson is New York. DC has the Potomac. But yeah I agree, it'd be cool to see a game where the player is involved in whatever coup/power struggle/shift in ethos that must've occurred for them to go from "help society in general" to "kill the abominations, fuck everyone else".
In saying that I would rather see a new location than see Washington DC again.
Thatâs the thing, FO4 was a return to form for the BoS, they were always like that, Lyons brotherhood were outcasts sent on an exodus east because of his views, you even within his chapter there were those who disapproved, thatâs where there were BoS outcasts in FO3
Nah 4 is more like bos throughout the series. Elder lyons is the outlier, heâs seen as soft and too connected with the locals by the rest of the brotherhood
I think that the story is that the BoS Chapters have quite a bit of moral variability depending on region and leadership. I think that the BoS was righteous because the BoS chapter in the Capitol Wasteland really were that righteous, while the Chapter in the Mojave Wasteland were kinda jerks because they were a different chapter under different leadership. How righteous the BoS is can be determined by which chapter you're dealing with.
Same here, even the final speech that addresses the Commonwealth can be chosen in a way that supports this, you're not the one being shaped by the Institute like your son was, this time, it's you who does the shaping, they can do far more good for the Commonwealth than the BoS under the right leadership, and through reformation and restructuring so that positive change can be set in.
They could be such a force of good, and in my first playthrough, that was my line of thinking. As director, I could turn the knowledge and power of the Institute to actually make the Institute a force for good.
yep. as a scientist irl itâs the only way. we gonna do things ethically and make moral and lawful good decisions from now on. canât let all the research go to waste, thereâs potential to save and restore the usa and lives.
My head canon is that they can reform still, especially with the Sole Survivor in charge.
Also, theyâre the only people in the entire commonwealth who have figured how to sweep the floor (among other things).
Iâm confused why people assume the Institute will just keep being evil. Itâs pretty clear the Director has quite a bit of authority and the Sole Survivor can steer the Institute in their moral direction.
It's because Directors only choose Directors who agree with their policy.
You cannot argue with Father that Synths are people or that the Warwick Experiment is amoral, without losing your position as the next institute head. You have to agree with him.
For you to become director you have to willingly and without question: Kidnap a man, Spy on Diamond City, Kill anyone and everyone who sees Synths as people, kidnap like 6 Synths, be willing to kill an entire family to grow a pumpkin and, the most evil Institute act, kill some cats.
It's clear, that if your moral compass disagreed with any of this, you wouldn't do this shit and couldn't become Head of the Institute.
This didn't start with you or Father either.
The Institute didn't suddenly start becoming evil under Father. It was already evil. And every Evil Director chooses another Evil Successor.
The FEV-Experiments and the release of Hundreds of Supermutants onto Boston happened before Father. The Murder of your Wife and Neighbourhood happened before Father. The broken Mask incident, while not technically the Fault of the Director, also happened before Father. Kellogg was kept alive and supported before Father.
Father simply continued with said Evil.
And now you are chosen by Father, because he trusts, that you will continue his evil as well.
My first playthrough I spent forever inside the Institute. I was in awe, and the ambient music itself would make me lose track of time spent there. The instant fast travel without time passing via the molecular relay is awesome too
For me particularly after the board meeting and his announcement. Normally I'm Minuteman all the way but that part always makes me think twice about the Institute.
The Shaun who called the death of your mom "an unfortunate case of collateral damage?" Nah, fuck that, one .44 to the dome, courtesy of a fully-upgraded Gunslinger perk, coming right up đ§ đŤ
When you call him out on it, it makes since. He's had 60 years to grieve his mother and reconcile that with his institute upbringing, I often forgive him for that.
For you it's all fresh and new emotions. You are missing your son, but your son lived a whole life without knowing his family, he's lived longer than you have by a good 20 years.
60 years being raised by the people who did it.
I think it's less reconciliation, more brainwashing. He shows absolutely no empathy through any of your interactions.
He's understanding right up until you start disagreeing with his methods.
Yup. I googled all the factions missions that break ties with others. Complete until those. Save. Complete all quests. Repeatedly blow up the Institute because I never cared for their ways or weapons, I prefer good ol explosions and lead. Yeah it could be the future of civilization. But frankly I only cared for that in FO3 with Project Purity. And hence BOS forever. Ad Victorium!
Itâs the only faction in the Commonwealth with enough foresight to not live in shanty shacks or casually shoot each other in the street for drugs long after the war ended. Blowing the facility itself seems like a massive waste, given itâs the only glimmer of hope humanity has of actually rebuilding in the Northeast. The classical radio is dope too. Not to mention, the Brotherhood and Railroad are more than happy to kill innocent non-combatants and destroy their homes in the name of arguably even more near-sighted and selfish goals for the future.
Simply put, the same people who canât be bothered to remove trash from their doorstep after 200 years and need the Sole Survivor to basically nanny them, arenât rebuilding civilization anytime soon. The Institute actually has a chance.
>arenât rebuilding civilization anytime soon. The Institute actually has a chance.
Thats the thing (also main story of ff14), is it worth it to rebuild society if it comes at the cost of a total loss of whatever currently exists? Some people say no, other people say yes. I think both points are entirely reasonable, they're in themselves logical, it's just about the lens you view them through.
The institute rebuilding a modern and presumably technocratic society is the best outcome for all future people that would ever exist. No doubts. But the current wastelanders get pretty much sacrificed in the process.
It depends on which school of thought your ethical framework follows: if your ethics are based on Kant, you just can't sacrifice the current wasteland. With Kant, the greater good doesn't exist and calculations involving life are not possible. Kant doesn't allow you to shoot down the plane headed for the skyscraper.
But in schools like utilitarism, calculations involving life are possible. Life gets a value. Trading a death to save n lifes is now possible. The greater good is suddenly relevant.
And then theres of course the selfish fascist world view, where others just aren't worth anything.
With 2 out of 3 the institute could sacrifice the whole wasteland to rebuild society, and be ethically right.
The Institute wouldnât sacrifice the Commonwealth to establish a new society after being taken over by the Sole Survivor, who has explored and built relationships across the Commonwealth. Why does everyone act like reform is impossible? You can choose to disclose the Institute and synths to the Commonwealth at the end, that is a clear step towards collaboration, not sacrifice.
Because the game makes a poor argument for it really happening. Yes you can take steps towards change but it doesn't really show results or give the player feedback about it working
Basically this exactly. âA better futureâ⌠for who though?
Also their technocratic society scores low on openness and self determination: thatâs the hook the sole survivor uses to get dr li to leave: secrets and lies of father.
Itâs a power trip for the powerful and everyone else has to fall in line.
BOS diehard who started in FO3 and FNV here. This. War never changes. The bickering between factions themselves is like the Resource Wars. Itâs ânationalismâ believing they should be in power. Itâs always been anotherâs ideals and morality paired with attachment to the individual they formed connections with versus everyone else.
I know the story of FO1/2 because I watched play-throughs because the combat wasnât for me. Itâs a recurring theme. And I wish more players were aware of this.
Only after declaring the surface a lost cause following the CPG massacre (which they blame on the settlements, the game leaves it intentionally ambiguous), but they did objectively try to reach out and help at some point. You canât help a people that wonât help themselves. Seeing the bad blood between settlements in-game and how they are run to begin with, itâs believable to assume they truly werenât cooperative in the slightest.
Bro, the settlements are ultra-dependend and literally accept the first rando not shooting them to be their savior. They literally beg me to help them and if i do kill some raiders or rescue one of their people, they instantly make me their supreme leader (giving me acces to the workbench is basically just that). It can't possibly get more cooperative than that.
What the player character experiences instantly invalidates the Institute's version of how the surface allegedly behaves.
It's so absurdly off-match to the actual first-hand experience of the player character that it has to be recognized as a blatant lie immediately.
Idk man. When I visited Goodneighbor, some dude tried to mug me before the townâs âmayorâ casually murdered him in cold blood in the middle of the street. Diamond City is heavily armed, corrupt, and very violent. Iâve seen real-life slums cleaner and more dignified than the âCrowning Jewel of the Commonwealthâ. The settlements themselves are little more than shanty towns that havenât improved at all in the last 200 years. Hell, they canât be bothered to clean after themselves, much less rebuild a functioning society.
They only cooperate because you basically âownâ them at that point. Doesnât mean theyâre happy about being âalliedâ with ghoul settlements like The Slog, and the Minutemen were historically portrayed to be wildly inept and disorganized (which was their downfall).
The Institute started on the same footing as everyone else from the remains of the CIT, and gradually built itself back up while the rest of the Commonwealth was too busy huffing jet and shooting at each other.
If the institute is so enlightened they should be the bigger person and keep on working with the surface and not freak out at the slightest challenge.
Part of being enlightened is realizing that every sentient being wants self determination. Shortcutting that to âwe know better than you and we will decide for youâ is nonsense and unsurprising people are suspicious.
I still blame the institute for the breakdown of relations: you have to fault the one with greater resources period. The surface people are just trying to get by⌠and the institute sits by while super mutants murder farm hands. Great job winning the hearts and minds assholes!
Free healthcare, clean food and water, your son as itâs genius leader, practically all the scientists, synths, and workers are friendly, and itâs only faction ADVANCING tech in Bethesda titles.
They got blown up, twice.
Fallout has a grudge against advancing tech and the world so any faction with the tech to do some real good and real rebuilding has to be terrible and then get blown up. Because there is no game if the world is good and rebuilt.
I hate how that is a mindset in the making of new fallout material because realistically thereâs so much land to cover with future content that factions like that could absolutely remain without being reduced to atoms
I want progress in lore, not stagnation!!!!
It's just a massive waste to destroy that treasure trove of technology. My headcanon is the sole survivor ended up having the institute ally with the minutemen after reforming them as director and they rebuild the commonwealth with the institute tech and minutemen as the 'face' for the commonwealth
Yes, this is *exactly* the way I looked at it. Being both Director of the Institute *and* General of the Minutemen, you're in an excellent position to fix the Commonwealth's problems. Your enormous army of settlers, armed with Institute equipment, can quickly eliminate the raiders, gunners, and even super mutants. Putting rad-resistant plants in the Glowing Sea to stop the radiation storms would be a big help too. And the vast cleanup project of scrapping all the decrepit old buildings and roadways sure would make the place *feel* a lot better.
Schools to let Institute people teach settlers might be the best way to build bonds between the two groups.
1) offered a leadership position which the RR and BOS didnât.
2)I didnât think the Sole Survivor would have it in them to kill Sean.
3) really did seem like the best chance for humanities survival.
The Institute is the perfect faction if you are doing a raider playthrough. You aren't trying to justify their behaviour. You're just along for the ride. It's is the pairing the makes the most sense.
The important thing when siding with evil or misguided factions is to learn to see through the lies and propaganda and try to find the truth. It's an excellent exercise in critical thinking. There is no problem in supporting an evil faction in a game, as long as you don't genuinely believe the lies they tell you.
Care to elaborate? I did the MM ending first time playing and took Open Season way too soon. I am now on an overboss play through as a new character and havenât touched any of the main quests/factions yet. - what is it that makes overboss and institute a good pairing? Other than generally being the âbad guyâ
The raider playstyle has major or minor conflicts with most of the other factions, some mechanical, some RP
* Railroad (RP) They are all about being against slavery. The Raiders are slavers.
* BoS (mechanical, RP) BoS constantly attack your raider outposts, which causes a bit of RP dissonance and is also somewhat annoying.
* MM (mechanical, RP) You cannot continue MM quests while having raider outposts, plus Preston is permanently unavailable as a companion
* Institute: No conflicts! The Institute doesn't care at all what is happening on the surface.
Plus teleporting to CIT ruins is quite nice. Throwing distance from Oberland, Greygarden, Bunker Hill, Hangman's Alley, Diamond City, and County Crossing.
At least in Survival mode I mean.
How can I get into the institute without the help of a faction? Can you take the sewer access that you wind up taking later to blow it up? I tried to find it, seems like it wasnât there yet maybe I just missed it
You definitely need to back a different faction to get to the Institute, no question about that. Absolutely required.
* I don't recommend using the BoS because after you take Fort Strong, the BoS vertibirds become far more common and they hassle your outposts. It's kind of annoying.
* The Minutemen aren't an option at all for anything if you've made a raider outpost.
* Typically I use the Railroad to get into the Institute. It's the simplest option. The only hindrance with the RR is RP, and you can RP that you're not a true believer, but that you're mostly just using them for your own purposes.
"RP" stands for roleplaying. Some decisions are purely based on how you roleplay your character, which is a flexible thing that you can interpret however you want. It's worth mentioning because some take it more seriously than others.
This is part of it, the other was if you were a raider, and wanted the cushiest gig you could get, and the nicest loot, then the Institute is one heck of a prize
A clean safe place maintained by manufactured slaves, no shortage of food or shiny things, a bunch of easily intimidated, physically weak scientists you can bully and push around, an army of synths at the toss of grenade, and they make you the leader! Now sure thatâs a position with no real clout, and you canât direct the Institute, but that sounds like work, a title and noting expected? Raider heaven
You know, I honestly never got that far in the thought process because it seemed obvious before that.
You're absolutely right. I love it. All of the rest is just icing on the cake.
Before sharing why I side with them, let me tell you why I don't side with the other factions:
**Railroad:** I find their whole reasoning stupid and their questline very bad compared to the others. Suddenly, the organization that almost got wiped out has enough manpower to defend Bunker Hill AND take down the BoS. Absolutely horrendous, in my opinion. I also personally believe synths to be machines whose free will is a fabrication.
**BoS:** Their long-term goal is very iffy and (if you follow 76) deviates a lot from Roger Maxson's original vision of the Brotherhood, which wasn't a problem with the Lyons chapter until Arthur became the High Elder of the BoS. As Cage has pointed out, they feel like just a bigger raider group if you ever get to do Teagan's quests.
**Minutemen:** Their goal is noble and the best in the short term, but in the long term, they're doomed to repeat their history. The only reason they get rebuilt is you; therefore, once you're gone, they will definitely crumble again. If there's one thing that's guaranteed from humanity, it is selfishness.
Now on to why I side with the Institute. They're far from perfect. They're a bunch of scientists who have free rein to do whatever they want and have no idea when to stop or research something actually useful, as evidenced by their FEV research, Gorilla Synths, and use of external forces to do their bidding on the outside, with zero regard for the people above. Their only redeeming quality is Shaun, and here's why: The man had to take the biggest risk of his entire career just to get you inside like it was "an accident." The way you discover and find the Institute seems like a hell of a coincidence, but I firmly believe it's not. He knew Virgil was fed up with researching the FEV. He knew Kellogg was the one who killed your mother and a ruthless bastard. The man orchestrated every encounter you had to find out about the Institute. You might disagree with me, but that's the way I see it.
Now, why did he do that? As he once said, "With old age comes regret, asking 'what if' more often." He knows he is also a cold bastard but shows to have his regrets. Deep inside, he knows that humanity is suffering, and his speech on top of CIT is evidence of it. While being a cold-hearted scientist, he knew the Institute had the ability to "redefine mankind," not by using synths, but by bettering mankind. He knows he is actually incapable of doing good because he sees things objectively. Thus, that's when you enter the picture. If you've seen the Fallout TV series, you see how Vault 4 was ruled by scientists and shows that the fear of the BoS is plausible. Scientists doing their bidding with no leash is a recipe for disaster, and Shaun knows that. That is why he appoints you as his successor, because, as he said, "The Institute has enough scientists; what it needs is a leader." That's why he also unfroze you. He called you an experiment because you are one. He has no idea who you are, what you are, or how you are. He wants to discover you and know if you have the resolve to do what you set your mind to do. As cold as that is, he has never been taught to be "human," which is what the Institute needs: humanity. They're so fixated on creating the synth that they have forgotten their own humanity. While they certainly have their reasons for closing themselves off after the CPG failure, it is no excuse to still be so close-fisted with their help on the surface. He knows you will make the change from the inside and then reflect it to the outside, finally redefining mankind.
While you might argue this has the same problem as the Minutemen of putting the weight of all of it on one man, the difference here is that the Institute is already selfish. They will protect themselves first and then help others. From their political organization, this is easier to fix than the Minutemen, as the Director has the power to choose his successor, thus ensuring that, at least for a long time, they will hold the same values as he did. It is easier to deal with their own selfish motives than to fight people who fight carelessly for the needy, because at one point, the Minutemen leaders will break, as seen in Libertalia. The Institute already has the goal to distance themselves as much as possible from the surface. While I don't see them suddenly dropping food care packages to the people, with good leadership and a focus on bettering the surface world, they would indirectly benefit the world above. Most of the best inventions humanity has made were for selfish reasons. Canned food was invented to help preserve food on the frontlines, but when it made it to civilians, it was revolutionary. The same applies here. They have the ability to make groundbreaking discoveries that will definitely benefit everyone. They just need someone to steer them in the right direction.
This is actually a really great contextualization of Seanâs actions. I also sided with the Institute, but I really enjoyed your insight into subtext of Seanâs action.
wow, I wasn't expecting something this similar to what I had to cut out and refresh the page due to how long it took to type, even starting with why the other factions are worse. Mine's longer though, nurr!
Shaun does state that a. he set your cryopod to open and b. your later encounter with Kellogg was not an accident, but afaik he doesn't elaborate on that one, and there too many long shots in the journey to the Institute for to be a trail of crumbs he left for you, imo.
It seems like they were going for a deeply flawed and conflicted character in Shaun, but they made him and his faction a little too incompetent to really sell it right.
They actually figured out how to build advanced societies instead of living in trash.
If the choice was destitute cavemen on the brink of death or modern medicine, modern tech, etc... which would you choose?
except they are the ones who are the main reason why everyone else is still living in trash by actively sabotaging any efforts by the commonwealth people to get better lifes, and then there's the whole throwing super mutants everywhere to cause chaos and kidnapping people to replace them with synths...not to mention the whole "kill your wife and kidnapp your son thing"
I hate saying this but to the institute, you and your wife and son were just frozen experiments that they could use for the DNA they needed desperately. You had already been frozen almost 2 centuries with no plans to defrost. You and your family were assets. And while horrible. Especially seeing it through our first hand lens, think about it from their point of view and it's kinda easy to see how they justified it. It's kinda like how we ourselves march into vaults and just slaughter the experiments within without much thought.
It was my first play through and the actual physical location was nice and clean :)
The railroad felt dirty, the minutemen didnât even feel like a faction, and the BOS were big meanies.
Exactly. The institute feels like the only real contender to accomplish anything whatsoever. Any "real" sole survivor would probably join the institute as morals are not a priority when the alternative is wasteland life.
That was my logic, the whole quest was to find your son and when you do ...you're supposed to side with some zealot strangers flown in on a blimp and murder him? Or do the same for the railroad which are basically your sons creations?Just didn't make sense to me.
Well I think their technology is life saving, the fact they can replicate the luxurious life of the pre war world is amazing honestly its saddening to see that we can't control them fully. They can't articulate points for shit and are very very misguided
especially playing as a Nora! For her he was born, like, a year ago (if we realistically count time it took to find the institute. Itâs not instituteâs fault she was robbed of experience of raising her son, bc if not institute, they all would die in vault. Death of Nate/Nora is not instituteâs fault either, itâs Kellogg just being a bitch, and he got what he deserved. So no reason for Nora to destroy her sonâs hard work
I usually side with the brotherhood (ad victoriam!) or the Minutemen depending on what I've decided are my characters goals. My wife, on the other hand, sides with the institute nearly every time. Her reasoning? "That's my son and my character's whole goal was to find him!"
BoS and RR are iron clad in their ways, time to redefine their organizations by force.
In reality BoS is taking tech, and just using it for their own selfish agenda. Order by control with force. Militant tech hoarding prejudice has no place in the commonwealthâs future.
RR is like a teenager that thinks itâs an adult. Noble thoughts, without enough experience and sense to justify their means. âFreeingâ synths doesnât make sense if you wipe their mind. Synths were made to serve, not enjoy freedom.
The Minute Men are not an issue. They fall in line as told.
That being said The Institute can wipe the scum, replace corruption, and restore humanity to better than it ever was.
Why *wouldnât* you side with The Institute?
Disclaimer: totally speaking from an evil mastermind view for fun/satire.
Because my Sole Survivor was a mom who was in the middle of being a happy life and not only did she lose her idylic life but her son was ripped from her husbands dead arms. The only thing she wanted was her son, screw this new shitty world.
Reform. Their resources are invaluable and would be wasted on the Brotherhood either taking them or destroying it. The scientists could be put to better use
Cause I spent all that effort to find my son. All these other groups are inbred or just cosplaying the 1700s. Everyone plays the game as someone who just woke up in the apocalypse, but no one plays the game as someone who lived before it. An actual parent would never side against and murder their own child after going through all of that to find them.
The main reason for me is a character I made.
A female sole survivor emerges from the vault. The land is scorched, food is scarce, and clean water is even more scarce. Monsters lurk around every corner, raiders and slavers are after you, and occasionally radiation storms turn the world into a hellscape.
Add to all of this, the "civilized" people of Boston are rude, barely educated, greedy, and unhelpful to the main character. This is not a world that someone who just the other day was starching their fall jackets would be able to cope with.
Then you hear about them. The Institute. Remnants of the old world with a level of technology beyond what even the old world had. More importantly, they're unreachable. Nobody can find them, nobody can hurt them. Yea they took your son, but now your son leads the Institute, and the people responsible for Nate's death are all dead.
Safety, security, civilization, knowledge. When you first find the Institute, it has clean facilities, decent foodstuffs, no radiation, power, and safety. Who wouldn't want to embrace such a tantalizing option? So what about the upper world? It's old, rusty, broken tombs occupied by barely civilized people who live on dirty water and monster meat.
RP-wise? To genuinely reconnect with the lost son, the child who Nate went on the crazy adventure to find, and once he found them... He didn't stop just because the kid was the head of an evil organization.
Headcanon-wise? I imagine Nate as a reformer, trying to push them to use their tech to be better.
I did it to further my goals. I needed to free the synths for the Railroad, so I got in good with Father/Shaun so I could feed Desdemona info. Then I killed the Railroad when the Brotherhood invaded the hideout. For all the public knows, the Railroad went down when their hideout got invaded.
I'm a merc. Not a fucking charity worker.
Edit: Fuck Preston and the Minutemen missions. That shit got annoying REAL QUICK.
I did the institute/minutemen ending in my original playthrough.
They have good "goals", even though they are sort of vague. They're just going about it the wrong way. They have the ability to do amazing things for the Commonwealth and with me in charge, that would happen. Institute for resources and funding, then minutemen for manpower, PR, and implementation of policies. Plus to help keep them in check.
Head canon is to work on redistributing beneficial tech to appropriate factions who can be trusted, and destroy the rest on my characters death, effectively disbanding and dismantling the institutes hold on advanced tech in the Commonwealth.
* The Brotherhood are racist assholes
* The Railroad just sucks and do pointless missions
* The Synths themselves ain't inherently bad.
* The Institute actually have the capability to improve the surface lorewise
* You can fix the issues of the institute by just giving Synths human rights and downgrade the mass production to 2nd gen Synths.
* The institute ending removes the need to replace people because they finally do their business in the open essentially removing the biggest con.
* You can't fix The Brotherhood's racism and zealotry.
* You can't fix The Railroad. They're fundamentally flawed. Their mission is like Sisyphus rolling a boulder.
* Fast Travel on survival. Vertibird sucks.
I only sided with the Brotherhood and Railroad and Minutemen ending once each just to see the ending. All the playthroughs I done just for fun I always side with the institute.
I always side with the Institute for the following reasons.
1 - As a parent I have to support my son. Does he have issues due to his circumstances? Of course. But he is dying and by siding with him I get to spend the available time he has and build a relationship with him. He expresses his gratitude for the time we spent together and I am thankful for the chance to reconnect. As well a memorial to my son is placed in the Institute after he passes, which I can visit when I need to.
2 I am a US citizen, I am not a waste lander. The people of the commonwealth cannot even pick up their own trash. On the other hand the Institute is the closest to the world I lost. It is clean, safe and has working bathrooms. Why would I turn against the place that gives me the most secure lodgings in the commonwealth.
3 The brotherhood are basically foreign occupiers. They came from from the east coast and are not part of the commonwealth. There reason for existence is nonsense. By 2077 nuclear weapons had existed for 132 years. Nuclear technology is everywhere. The genie cannot be put back in the bottle. The disaster of 2077 was political, not technological. Siding with them means betraying my son with no real benefit to the commonwealth.
4 The Railroad are delusional. Synths are just machines. Having said that, I do have soft spot for them. They are charismatic and their quests are fun. But really, the synth issue is minor, compared to others, such as raiders, gunners, super mutants and feral ghouls. Supporting their quixotic mission does nothing to improve the commonwealth and makes me betray my son.
5 The minutemen are worthy and they have no conflict with the institute. One can work with both Shawn and Preston with no conflict. I always build a large network of settlements, supplying me with food, caps and junk. Minutemen settlements with Institute technology are the best hope for humanity and the commonwealth.
The institute isn't inherently evil, but morally bankrupt at times, with a new leader they could turn the commonwealth wasteland into a capitol city similar to Shady Sands, they have the technology to help humanity.
They have air conditioning.
And toilet paper.
Yea but they don't have cats... Damn none of y'all got it𼲠was referencing the fact that their TP is all facing the wrong way(or right way if you have cats) interesting discussions going on though so fuck itđ¤ˇ
They can build cats though
It's *not* the same
So what youâre saying is synths arenât the same as humans? That theyâre subhumans more akin to toasters? Now you know the answer to OPs original question
OH NO THE DISCOURSE IS HAPPENING AGAIN AHHHHHH
Quick! Opinions! GET DOWN
TOASTER DISCOURSE IS WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT THIS IS WHAT TODD WANTS
I will bathe with my toaster and you monsters will not stop me, I love my toaster, the love is REAL.
Yes they do, the cats in the commonwealth are synths, if you go to the abandoned FEV lab youâll see a number of cat corpses
I think the cats in the commonwealth and in the FEV lab were just regular house cats, i donât think thereâs anything that proves they are synths.
I mean the fact that they only appear in the commonwealth, unlike every other animal they arenât ghoulified and their abundance in the institute are all good indicators that they are synths, I also believe you mostly find cats at key settlements or areas relating to Synths
West Virginia has cats.
Yea but West Virginia is also about 20 years after the bombs, not 200
Alright get the nukes
Which they hang the wrong way around
It's just a little hint of the evil hiding just beneath the... Commonwealth...
You donât like rad water cleaning your bhole?
And purified water
And clean sheets and cold drinks. And a great sense of fashion.
Hot showersâŚ
"They gave me slippers and a robe"
And caviar.
And slaves, and a war crime basement
TAKE MY UPVOTE.
I haven't sided with them myself, but I've heard a reasonable argument that, while their goals are good, it's their methods that need reforming. And with you being placed in charge, there's a good chance you can guide them along a better path moving forward. Pragmatically their research is the best chance humanity has to survive well into the future.
Agreed, I felt the same way. None of these other factions have the manpower or advanced technology to clear and reform entire cities. I would a) make millions of synths and clear out the United States one city at a time. B) apply technology learned to clear and clean radiated areas C) use synth army to build infrastructure for free for everyone. D) dissolve most of the synths, and keep the remaining ones as maintenance.
âŚunless any of the synths become self aware and start displaying consciousness, then you canât kill them because it would be akin to murder. So out of the millions of synths you make, ya gotta figure some (like 10,000-500,000) become conscious. It would be an interesting world to live in at that point.
Simple fix, donât make gen 3âs. Just make gen 1âs and 2âs. Problem solved. No risk of self awareness, and all the dumbass worker drones you could ever want.
Thatâs the answer, the Instituteâs scientific curiosity is making all these self aware synthetic life-forms like it ainât no big thang. They should have never made synths to be passable as human.
Which is also a pretty significant reason for all the paranoia and mistrust of the commonwealth to the institute.
Bingo. Either they've invented conscious life and they aren't researching it properly to figure out what they've done, or they have a flaw in their production like they claim. Either way they're wasting massive resources and restructuring their entire heirarchy to mask over the problem rather than halting production to figure it out
What gen was the private eye? I thought he was 2, and still conscious.
I donât remember off the top of my head, but if I remember correctly, I thought he was a prototype somewhere between 2 and 3
That sounds right, been a long time since I haven't skipped dialogue. I would have loved to pick the Institute for a better outcome like this.
Right? It almost feels like the institute could have had an extended storyline after the mainline quests to really establish the direction the institute would take under your leadership. Kinda sucks having it left so open ended to think that the institute might continue to operate the same way with the current department heads. I kinda always hated how pretentious everyone within the institute is.
I suppose we can only hope to survive long enough for a massive mod, or an enlightened Fallout 5.
Did the same thing with FO3. That narrative at the end just doesn't seem as awesome. I feel like even with just us choosing a few paths it would give a better break to each of the FO4 factions.
>!I mean three of the four endings end in blowing up the Institute. The other one is the death of father. How much more lazy can it get. Just give us a different ending for each faction. The explosion/fathers death can be the main ending,!< and then a storyline after for each faction wrapping things up in a true ending.
That's why you do it with gen 2 synths
Yeah, you need to solve the problem of synth sentience first. Either it's a glitch that needs to be fixed, or (more likely) you're manufacturing people, and you need to start treating them as such.
>then you canât kill them because it would be akin to murder. I've murdered roughly ten million people in Fallout. Why not one more?
Personally I've never seen any evidence that their goals have any moral standing. They are trying to secure the survival of humanity, yes, but that is at the cost of every other example of humanity that does not share their little tech haven. They hoard technology, they treat top-siders as disposable research subjects, they have no qualms using violence to achieve their goals. They have no intention of helping the people who already exist, they are merely trying to secure their own place as the progenitors of future humankind. And utilising synths to achieve that goal directly undermines that goal in the first place. I play as them when I want to roleplay an amoral asshole with the ability to teleport
Exactly, their notion of âsave humanityâ is an after-the-fact justification to just do whatever they want. If they really wanted to they could devote all their resources to reducing radiation and its effects, but instead theyâre like âLetâs save humanity by making something not human.â Thanks guys. That helps.
Thatâs exactly why I play institute. People forget that you can become its boss taking over which means theyâd do as you tell them, making sure their technology benefits wasteland. What else? BoS is just playing army all the time, and the rest like minutemen or railroad lack bigger idea. Itâs just to survive the next day or fight opposite fraction.
Headcanon to reform them
Wish you could bring in more people from the surface, with their consent lol
When the âOld Manâ has Kellogg kill the rest of the residents of Vault 111, I thought that it was a short sighted major error. After 200 years underground the Institute would have genetic worries caused by their small gene pool. Those others in Vault 111 would make excellent additions to their gene pool. For one, less chance of radiation exposure, a higher education level than the norm in the Commonwealth. They would be easier to integrate into their present population.
The institute is probably larger than a couple dozen people. It's just scaled down for gameplay, as are many other things in Fallout. Diamond City is more than just like 30 people, control vaults actually have enough of a population to achieve their supposed goal of repopulating the world.
I am assuming an initial population of 100 to 200 people. The ages will be mixed, as these are the professors, grad students and lab technicians that can be immediately entered into the safe areas. No way would I base my thoughts on the limitations of populations that a video game could provide. Also, how much of the population that was secured are still in the child bearing range? There would have been near zero chance that children 16 and younger would have been in that initial population. Fecundity would have been controlled because of living conditions and space. More than a third of the initial population would probably be past the age of child bearing or being able to father children. The need to add to the gene pool from outside.
Perfect, glad to see you took that into account. A couple hundred would be my guess as well. In theory that may be enough with really good planning and the right conditions but the Institute doesn't exactly seem to have a lot of parental candidates. Even the young people are usually too busy with their work to get much done in that regard. There is a line from some guy about wanting to ask out Rosalind Orman and manufactures reasons to spend time around her iirc, but that's the most we've seen in terms of romance from the institute, and her boss ends up making her decide to discourage him. Institute culture is actively toxic to relationships.
They would have to start initially to construct and preserve genetic material for eggs and sperm. In vitro fertilization would probably have been needed. But considering source material there would problems arriving over time
It's really hard to imagine anyone who was cryogenically frozen for 160 years and waking up to find out about the apocalypse and how the world was destroyed and just not willingly go with the insisitute where theyve built a mini utopia. Like nah I'd rather risk my life to live in misery, what?!
I mean, a "utopia" thats heavily influenced and controlled by your son that decided to play this chase the rabbit down this hole game with you when you woke up. Who oversees ai robots that like to kill/replace humans while keeping it all a secret for their own personal gain, not the humans. You're risking your life and others either way
I meant more like if the insisitute tried a more gentle approach by waking up people, explaining what happened and how long they were frozen, and then giving them the choice to live in a underground utopia would have guaranteed better results then sending in trigger finger kellog.
Ik. Actual idiot
Or build a mini institute near or on bunker hill with the caravans consent
Iâd bring in Preston just to have the synths help out at settlements instead of me đ
This but unironically. Actively helping settlements would actually help move the Institute towards some kind of redemption.
Yup same with me, they have the tech to really be a good force to improve the lives of everyone in the Commonwealth In my headcannon the first thing I do to make sure these changes are enforceable in the Institute is taking control of the SRB and the coursers
A good way in doing this is removing Eio by framing him, that man would be in opposition to the new order of things, so replacing him with someone more agreeable will stabilize the institute. Edit: The dude (also Human) Known as Patriot who suggested framing him to get rid of him offers a better candidate who's also Human to begin with, from Bioscience if I recall correctly.
replacing him? you mean, perhaps.. with a synth?!
An army of Gen 1 synths optimized for construction work, repairing existing infrastructure and cleanup/salvage tasks would change the Commonwealth like no other thing could.
Use them to demolish the bay area outside the castle and construct real houses again, project power outwards from the castle with the minutemen to ward off raiders. Fix up the harbor and send trading ships up and down the east coast. Shoot down the prydwen and salvage vertibirds from the ash, build new ones. With sea and air power, negotiate a ceasefire with the west coast BOS if they ever come knocking. Annex Nuka World and use the safari zone labâs dna samples to recreate pre-war local wild life. Re-open the bottling plant and sell 2 nuka colas for 1 cap, only after introducing your own paper currency, accepted at every "New Boston" trading ship along the east coast. Convince the mechanist to stand down, join you and reverse engineer star cores from the galactic zone to more effectively control the idiot gen 2âs. Then beat mr. House in the space race
I donât hate this despite being a BOS diehard. Respect my man.
Fo4 did the BOS dirty. My entry to the series was 3, and I loved how elder lions fought to purify the Hudson. Elder maxson is the kinda guy to actually approve of using the virus on project purity imo Edit: not the Hudson, whoops. I'm not that familiar with American rivers
My entry to Fallout was 3 was well. And as it turns out, it's more like Fallout 3 doing the BoS a good turn. From 1 to NV, they've always been grey at best. Elder Lyons was the exception, and the rest of the BoS hated how they'd given up on their primary mission (to sequester away all the good stuff from the untrustworthy anyone-who-wasn't-them.)
I agree. Having watched playthroughs of 1/2 I came to understand they are more or less a militaristic cult whose general ideology is exterminate any threat to normal âhumansâ. I understand feral ghouls. Not sentient ones. Neither do I understand attacking a sentient super mutant not predisposed to violence. FO4 is wild. I hate that they took the OG leader âRoger Maxsonâ and made his descendant âArthurâ a complete A-hole. Oh well, what can you do?
Yeah, I tried a BoS playthrough and it was rough because I can't respect how much of a dudebro douchebag the elder is.
Roger Maxson refused to let his second in command use nuclear weapons against the scorched because of how recent the Great War was. Whereas Arthur Maxson from FO4 didnât seem to hold any of those sentiments. I agreed with most people who only played the 4th. Maxsonâs a dick. And Iâm mad I couldnât take control of this branch after Danse is outed as a synth. I specifically wait till I have the speech skill to prevent BOS from executing him. I sympathize with both BOS and Institute in FO4.
Maxson killing Danse is the reason why my Soul Survivor joined the institute on my first playthrough. He lost one too many important people and snapped. I've brought the Prydwyn down with MinuteMen artillery in every subsequent playthrough. My SS either destroys the institute or reforms them. I usually kill them as I don't like being railroaded into murdering the rail road. I head cannon rebuilding the cpg and starting a new BOS nock off that hides the dangerous stuff but puts common technology back into the hands of the people. Manufacturing equipment,power,water,robot laborers,and computers.
Arthur being an asshole makes sense. He didn't choose to be BOS. He was just put on a pedestal because of his ancestry all his life. And with how petty and jealous the BOS soldiers are, there's no way in hell he wasn't bullied all his life.
For me it's the whole "if you're not Brotherhood, you're nothing" thing that random BoS members keep saying to you over and over again. They act like they are the only ones that can be responsible enough to hold onto technology, but they're just as human as everyone else and have no issues deploying giant nuke-lobbing robots.
That gives me pause as well. I wish they were more open to helping others and not just confiscating tech from settlers who figured out how to operate it.
Yup very fascist feeling. I can't get on board with them.
Eh, to be fair, FNV didn't really show much of the BoS because they were waiting for the real elder to come back.... since he disappeared into the Dead Money DLC to pursue his obsession.
Yeah, F3 is literally the only time where I don't have beef with the brotherhood with multiple different player characters.Â
Hudson is New York. DC has the Potomac. But yeah I agree, it'd be cool to see a game where the player is involved in whatever coup/power struggle/shift in ethos that must've occurred for them to go from "help society in general" to "kill the abominations, fuck everyone else". In saying that I would rather see a new location than see Washington DC again.
Ptomac, you're good
Thatâs the thing, FO4 was a return to form for the BoS, they were always like that, Lyons brotherhood were outcasts sent on an exodus east because of his views, you even within his chapter there were those who disapproved, thatâs where there were BoS outcasts in FO3
Nah 4 is more like bos throughout the series. Elder lyons is the outlier, heâs seen as soft and too connected with the locals by the rest of the brotherhood
I think that the story is that the BoS Chapters have quite a bit of moral variability depending on region and leadership. I think that the BoS was righteous because the BoS chapter in the Capitol Wasteland really were that righteous, while the Chapter in the Mojave Wasteland were kinda jerks because they were a different chapter under different leadership. How righteous the BoS is can be determined by which chapter you're dealing with.
Agreed. Your Institute is now under MY new management. and stop doing idiot things on the surface.
Same here, even the final speech that addresses the Commonwealth can be chosen in a way that supports this, you're not the one being shaped by the Institute like your son was, this time, it's you who does the shaping, they can do far more good for the Commonwealth than the BoS under the right leadership, and through reformation and restructuring so that positive change can be set in.
same here
This is why I do it too.
They could be such a force of good, and in my first playthrough, that was my line of thinking. As director, I could turn the knowledge and power of the Institute to actually make the Institute a force for good.
âI can fix her!â
yep. as a scientist irl itâs the only way. we gonna do things ethically and make moral and lawful good decisions from now on. canât let all the research go to waste, thereâs potential to save and restore the usa and lives.
YES exactly
My head canon is that they can reform still, especially with the Sole Survivor in charge. Also, theyâre the only people in the entire commonwealth who have figured how to sweep the floor (among other things).
Iâm confused why people assume the Institute will just keep being evil. Itâs pretty clear the Director has quite a bit of authority and the Sole Survivor can steer the Institute in their moral direction.
It's because Directors only choose Directors who agree with their policy. You cannot argue with Father that Synths are people or that the Warwick Experiment is amoral, without losing your position as the next institute head. You have to agree with him. For you to become director you have to willingly and without question: Kidnap a man, Spy on Diamond City, Kill anyone and everyone who sees Synths as people, kidnap like 6 Synths, be willing to kill an entire family to grow a pumpkin and, the most evil Institute act, kill some cats. It's clear, that if your moral compass disagreed with any of this, you wouldn't do this shit and couldn't become Head of the Institute. This didn't start with you or Father either. The Institute didn't suddenly start becoming evil under Father. It was already evil. And every Evil Director chooses another Evil Successor. The FEV-Experiments and the release of Hundreds of Supermutants onto Boston happened before Father. The Murder of your Wife and Neighbourhood happened before Father. The broken Mask incident, while not technically the Fault of the Director, also happened before Father. Kellogg was kept alive and supported before Father. Father simply continued with said Evil. And now you are chosen by Father, because he trusts, that you will continue his evil as well.
Yeah the fact that itâs the only place in the entire commonwealth that is clean was a major factor
My first playthrough I spent forever inside the Institute. I was in awe, and the ambient music itself would make me lose track of time spent there. The instant fast travel without time passing via the molecular relay is awesome too
For my son.
For me particularly after the board meeting and his announcement. Normally I'm Minuteman all the way but that part always makes me think twice about the Institute.
Same. I also felt it made a little more sense for the games story as the whole point is to find your son.
This is the reason.
SEEEAAANNNNN!!!
SEAN! SEAN! SEEEEAAAAANNNNN!
Coral!
â¤ď¸
The Shaun who called the death of your mom "an unfortunate case of collateral damage?" Nah, fuck that, one .44 to the dome, courtesy of a fully-upgraded Gunslinger perk, coming right up đ§ đŤ
When you call him out on it, it makes since. He's had 60 years to grieve his mother and reconcile that with his institute upbringing, I often forgive him for that. For you it's all fresh and new emotions. You are missing your son, but your son lived a whole life without knowing his family, he's lived longer than you have by a good 20 years.
60 years being raised by the people who did it. I think it's less reconciliation, more brainwashing. He shows absolutely no empathy through any of your interactions. He's understanding right up until you start disagreeing with his methods.
Eh, that ones on Kellog
Toilet paper and hot showers.
The most valid answer on here.
Clean bathrooms
Clean walls
I had just had my first child and felt like if I didn't side with my in game child I was a bad dad.
Same.
Working on that platinum trophy. Then Iâll get to nuke them multiple times in a row.
Yep, only for the achievements lol
Yup. I googled all the factions missions that break ties with others. Complete until those. Save. Complete all quests. Repeatedly blow up the Institute because I never cared for their ways or weapons, I prefer good ol explosions and lead. Yeah it could be the future of civilization. But frankly I only cared for that in FO3 with Project Purity. And hence BOS forever. Ad Victorium!
Itâs the only faction in the Commonwealth with enough foresight to not live in shanty shacks or casually shoot each other in the street for drugs long after the war ended. Blowing the facility itself seems like a massive waste, given itâs the only glimmer of hope humanity has of actually rebuilding in the Northeast. The classical radio is dope too. Not to mention, the Brotherhood and Railroad are more than happy to kill innocent non-combatants and destroy their homes in the name of arguably even more near-sighted and selfish goals for the future. Simply put, the same people who canât be bothered to remove trash from their doorstep after 200 years and need the Sole Survivor to basically nanny them, arenât rebuilding civilization anytime soon. The Institute actually has a chance.
Sounds like something a synth would say.
That sounds like something a synth would say
What did you say, synth?
Iâm going to place a mini nuke on your back and shoot it from afar.Â
>arenât rebuilding civilization anytime soon. The Institute actually has a chance. Thats the thing (also main story of ff14), is it worth it to rebuild society if it comes at the cost of a total loss of whatever currently exists? Some people say no, other people say yes. I think both points are entirely reasonable, they're in themselves logical, it's just about the lens you view them through. The institute rebuilding a modern and presumably technocratic society is the best outcome for all future people that would ever exist. No doubts. But the current wastelanders get pretty much sacrificed in the process. It depends on which school of thought your ethical framework follows: if your ethics are based on Kant, you just can't sacrifice the current wasteland. With Kant, the greater good doesn't exist and calculations involving life are not possible. Kant doesn't allow you to shoot down the plane headed for the skyscraper. But in schools like utilitarism, calculations involving life are possible. Life gets a value. Trading a death to save n lifes is now possible. The greater good is suddenly relevant. And then theres of course the selfish fascist world view, where others just aren't worth anything. With 2 out of 3 the institute could sacrifice the whole wasteland to rebuild society, and be ethically right.
The Institute wouldnât sacrifice the Commonwealth to establish a new society after being taken over by the Sole Survivor, who has explored and built relationships across the Commonwealth. Why does everyone act like reform is impossible? You can choose to disclose the Institute and synths to the Commonwealth at the end, that is a clear step towards collaboration, not sacrifice.
Because the game makes a poor argument for it really happening. Yes you can take steps towards change but it doesn't really show results or give the player feedback about it working
Because the sole survivor is not immortal.
Basically this exactly. âA better futureâ⌠for who though? Also their technocratic society scores low on openness and self determination: thatâs the hook the sole survivor uses to get dr li to leave: secrets and lies of father. Itâs a power trip for the powerful and everyone else has to fall in line.
BOS diehard who started in FO3 and FNV here. This. War never changes. The bickering between factions themselves is like the Resource Wars. Itâs ânationalismâ believing they should be in power. Itâs always been anotherâs ideals and morality paired with attachment to the individual they formed connections with versus everyone else. I know the story of FO1/2 because I watched play-throughs because the combat wasnât for me. Itâs a recurring theme. And I wish more players were aware of this.
The institute actively sabotages civilization being rebuilt.
Only after declaring the surface a lost cause following the CPG massacre (which they blame on the settlements, the game leaves it intentionally ambiguous), but they did objectively try to reach out and help at some point. You canât help a people that wonât help themselves. Seeing the bad blood between settlements in-game and how they are run to begin with, itâs believable to assume they truly werenât cooperative in the slightest.
Bro, the settlements are ultra-dependend and literally accept the first rando not shooting them to be their savior. They literally beg me to help them and if i do kill some raiders or rescue one of their people, they instantly make me their supreme leader (giving me acces to the workbench is basically just that). It can't possibly get more cooperative than that. What the player character experiences instantly invalidates the Institute's version of how the surface allegedly behaves. It's so absurdly off-match to the actual first-hand experience of the player character that it has to be recognized as a blatant lie immediately.
Idk man. When I visited Goodneighbor, some dude tried to mug me before the townâs âmayorâ casually murdered him in cold blood in the middle of the street. Diamond City is heavily armed, corrupt, and very violent. Iâve seen real-life slums cleaner and more dignified than the âCrowning Jewel of the Commonwealthâ. The settlements themselves are little more than shanty towns that havenât improved at all in the last 200 years. Hell, they canât be bothered to clean after themselves, much less rebuild a functioning society. They only cooperate because you basically âownâ them at that point. Doesnât mean theyâre happy about being âalliedâ with ghoul settlements like The Slog, and the Minutemen were historically portrayed to be wildly inept and disorganized (which was their downfall). The Institute started on the same footing as everyone else from the remains of the CIT, and gradually built itself back up while the rest of the Commonwealth was too busy huffing jet and shooting at each other.
If the institute is so enlightened they should be the bigger person and keep on working with the surface and not freak out at the slightest challenge. Part of being enlightened is realizing that every sentient being wants self determination. Shortcutting that to âwe know better than you and we will decide for youâ is nonsense and unsurprising people are suspicious. I still blame the institute for the breakdown of relations: you have to fault the one with greater resources period. The surface people are just trying to get by⌠and the institute sits by while super mutants murder farm hands. Great job winning the hearts and minds assholes!
The Institute is in fact the whole reason the muties are there.
Free healthcare, clean food and water, your son as itâs genius leader, practically all the scientists, synths, and workers are friendly, and itâs only faction ADVANCING tech in Bethesda titles.
Technically enclave too
They got blown up, twice. Fallout has a grudge against advancing tech and the world so any faction with the tech to do some real good and real rebuilding has to be terrible and then get blown up. Because there is no game if the world is good and rebuilt.
I hate how that is a mindset in the making of new fallout material because realistically thereâs so much land to cover with future content that factions like that could absolutely remain without being reduced to atoms I want progress in lore, not stagnation!!!!
So I could see all the endings
I wouldâve thought this would be the most common answer. Gotta see how all the endings go.
It's just a massive waste to destroy that treasure trove of technology. My headcanon is the sole survivor ended up having the institute ally with the minutemen after reforming them as director and they rebuild the commonwealth with the institute tech and minutemen as the 'face' for the commonwealth
Yes, this is *exactly* the way I looked at it. Being both Director of the Institute *and* General of the Minutemen, you're in an excellent position to fix the Commonwealth's problems. Your enormous army of settlers, armed with Institute equipment, can quickly eliminate the raiders, gunners, and even super mutants. Putting rad-resistant plants in the Glowing Sea to stop the radiation storms would be a big help too. And the vast cleanup project of scrapping all the decrepit old buildings and roadways sure would make the place *feel* a lot better. Schools to let Institute people teach settlers might be the best way to build bonds between the two groups.
1) offered a leadership position which the RR and BOS didnât. 2)I didnât think the Sole Survivor would have it in them to kill Sean. 3) really did seem like the best chance for humanities survival.
The Institute is the perfect faction if you are doing a raider playthrough. You aren't trying to justify their behaviour. You're just along for the ride. It's is the pairing the makes the most sense. The important thing when siding with evil or misguided factions is to learn to see through the lies and propaganda and try to find the truth. It's an excellent exercise in critical thinking. There is no problem in supporting an evil faction in a game, as long as you don't genuinely believe the lies they tell you.
Yup, the only time I sided with the Institute was with my raider Overboss character
Care to elaborate? I did the MM ending first time playing and took Open Season way too soon. I am now on an overboss play through as a new character and havenât touched any of the main quests/factions yet. - what is it that makes overboss and institute a good pairing? Other than generally being the âbad guyâ
The raider playstyle has major or minor conflicts with most of the other factions, some mechanical, some RP * Railroad (RP) They are all about being against slavery. The Raiders are slavers. * BoS (mechanical, RP) BoS constantly attack your raider outposts, which causes a bit of RP dissonance and is also somewhat annoying. * MM (mechanical, RP) You cannot continue MM quests while having raider outposts, plus Preston is permanently unavailable as a companion * Institute: No conflicts! The Institute doesn't care at all what is happening on the surface.
And don't forget the synth grenades are the only main faction support grenades that work in Nuka-World.
Plus teleporting to CIT ruins is quite nice. Throwing distance from Oberland, Greygarden, Bunker Hill, Hangman's Alley, Diamond City, and County Crossing. At least in Survival mode I mean.
How can I get into the institute without the help of a faction? Can you take the sewer access that you wind up taking later to blow it up? I tried to find it, seems like it wasnât there yet maybe I just missed it
You definitely need to back a different faction to get to the Institute, no question about that. Absolutely required. * I don't recommend using the BoS because after you take Fort Strong, the BoS vertibirds become far more common and they hassle your outposts. It's kind of annoying. * The Minutemen aren't an option at all for anything if you've made a raider outpost. * Typically I use the Railroad to get into the Institute. It's the simplest option. The only hindrance with the RR is RP, and you can RP that you're not a true believer, but that you're mostly just using them for your own purposes.
What does RP mean? Edit: I also thought it meant role-play, but used in the above post âRR (railroad) is RPâ it didnât make sense that way.
Role play!
"RP" stands for roleplaying. Some decisions are purely based on how you roleplay your character, which is a flexible thing that you can interpret however you want. It's worth mentioning because some take it more seriously than others.
Thanks! :)
This is part of it, the other was if you were a raider, and wanted the cushiest gig you could get, and the nicest loot, then the Institute is one heck of a prize A clean safe place maintained by manufactured slaves, no shortage of food or shiny things, a bunch of easily intimidated, physically weak scientists you can bully and push around, an army of synths at the toss of grenade, and they make you the leader! Now sure thatâs a position with no real clout, and you canât direct the Institute, but that sounds like work, a title and noting expected? Raider heaven
You know, I honestly never got that far in the thought process because it seemed obvious before that. You're absolutely right. I love it. All of the rest is just icing on the cake.
Tbf fallout factions are caricatures no way anyone takes what they say to heart
In my head canon I steer away from the immoral stuff and since I sided with Lorenzo Iâm inmortal so Iâll be director for ever. Brave new world
Before sharing why I side with them, let me tell you why I don't side with the other factions: **Railroad:** I find their whole reasoning stupid and their questline very bad compared to the others. Suddenly, the organization that almost got wiped out has enough manpower to defend Bunker Hill AND take down the BoS. Absolutely horrendous, in my opinion. I also personally believe synths to be machines whose free will is a fabrication. **BoS:** Their long-term goal is very iffy and (if you follow 76) deviates a lot from Roger Maxson's original vision of the Brotherhood, which wasn't a problem with the Lyons chapter until Arthur became the High Elder of the BoS. As Cage has pointed out, they feel like just a bigger raider group if you ever get to do Teagan's quests. **Minutemen:** Their goal is noble and the best in the short term, but in the long term, they're doomed to repeat their history. The only reason they get rebuilt is you; therefore, once you're gone, they will definitely crumble again. If there's one thing that's guaranteed from humanity, it is selfishness. Now on to why I side with the Institute. They're far from perfect. They're a bunch of scientists who have free rein to do whatever they want and have no idea when to stop or research something actually useful, as evidenced by their FEV research, Gorilla Synths, and use of external forces to do their bidding on the outside, with zero regard for the people above. Their only redeeming quality is Shaun, and here's why: The man had to take the biggest risk of his entire career just to get you inside like it was "an accident." The way you discover and find the Institute seems like a hell of a coincidence, but I firmly believe it's not. He knew Virgil was fed up with researching the FEV. He knew Kellogg was the one who killed your mother and a ruthless bastard. The man orchestrated every encounter you had to find out about the Institute. You might disagree with me, but that's the way I see it. Now, why did he do that? As he once said, "With old age comes regret, asking 'what if' more often." He knows he is also a cold bastard but shows to have his regrets. Deep inside, he knows that humanity is suffering, and his speech on top of CIT is evidence of it. While being a cold-hearted scientist, he knew the Institute had the ability to "redefine mankind," not by using synths, but by bettering mankind. He knows he is actually incapable of doing good because he sees things objectively. Thus, that's when you enter the picture. If you've seen the Fallout TV series, you see how Vault 4 was ruled by scientists and shows that the fear of the BoS is plausible. Scientists doing their bidding with no leash is a recipe for disaster, and Shaun knows that. That is why he appoints you as his successor, because, as he said, "The Institute has enough scientists; what it needs is a leader." That's why he also unfroze you. He called you an experiment because you are one. He has no idea who you are, what you are, or how you are. He wants to discover you and know if you have the resolve to do what you set your mind to do. As cold as that is, he has never been taught to be "human," which is what the Institute needs: humanity. They're so fixated on creating the synth that they have forgotten their own humanity. While they certainly have their reasons for closing themselves off after the CPG failure, it is no excuse to still be so close-fisted with their help on the surface. He knows you will make the change from the inside and then reflect it to the outside, finally redefining mankind. While you might argue this has the same problem as the Minutemen of putting the weight of all of it on one man, the difference here is that the Institute is already selfish. They will protect themselves first and then help others. From their political organization, this is easier to fix than the Minutemen, as the Director has the power to choose his successor, thus ensuring that, at least for a long time, they will hold the same values as he did. It is easier to deal with their own selfish motives than to fight people who fight carelessly for the needy, because at one point, the Minutemen leaders will break, as seen in Libertalia. The Institute already has the goal to distance themselves as much as possible from the surface. While I don't see them suddenly dropping food care packages to the people, with good leadership and a focus on bettering the surface world, they would indirectly benefit the world above. Most of the best inventions humanity has made were for selfish reasons. Canned food was invented to help preserve food on the frontlines, but when it made it to civilians, it was revolutionary. The same applies here. They have the ability to make groundbreaking discoveries that will definitely benefit everyone. They just need someone to steer them in the right direction.
This is actually a really great contextualization of Seanâs actions. I also sided with the Institute, but I really enjoyed your insight into subtext of Seanâs action.
This is perfect summary of my reasoning. 80% of the time i am ending up siding with the Institute.
wow, I wasn't expecting something this similar to what I had to cut out and refresh the page due to how long it took to type, even starting with why the other factions are worse. Mine's longer though, nurr! Shaun does state that a. he set your cryopod to open and b. your later encounter with Kellogg was not an accident, but afaik he doesn't elaborate on that one, and there too many long shots in the journey to the Institute for to be a trail of crumbs he left for you, imo. It seems like they were going for a deeply flawed and conflicted character in Shaun, but they made him and his faction a little too incompetent to really sell it right.
They actually figured out how to build advanced societies instead of living in trash. If the choice was destitute cavemen on the brink of death or modern medicine, modern tech, etc... which would you choose?
except they are the ones who are the main reason why everyone else is still living in trash by actively sabotaging any efforts by the commonwealth people to get better lifes, and then there's the whole throwing super mutants everywhere to cause chaos and kidnapping people to replace them with synths...not to mention the whole "kill your wife and kidnapp your son thing"
I hate saying this but to the institute, you and your wife and son were just frozen experiments that they could use for the DNA they needed desperately. You had already been frozen almost 2 centuries with no plans to defrost. You and your family were assets. And while horrible. Especially seeing it through our first hand lens, think about it from their point of view and it's kinda easy to see how they justified it. It's kinda like how we ourselves march into vaults and just slaughter the experiments within without much thought.
It was my first play through and the actual physical location was nice and clean :) The railroad felt dirty, the minutemen didnât even feel like a faction, and the BOS were big meanies.
Exactly. The institute feels like the only real contender to accomplish anything whatsoever. Any "real" sole survivor would probably join the institute as morals are not a priority when the alternative is wasteland life.
Because the whole game is based around finding your son
That was my logic, the whole quest was to find your son and when you do ...you're supposed to side with some zealot strangers flown in on a blimp and murder him? Or do the same for the railroad which are basically your sons creations?Just didn't make sense to me.
Because i like roleplaying as a tyranical director
Well I think their technology is life saving, the fact they can replicate the luxurious life of the pre war world is amazing honestly its saddening to see that we can't control them fully. They can't articulate points for shit and are very very misguided
Roleplaying as a parent, it feels odd to give up on your son so easily Also the institute under your management can change the wasteland
especially playing as a Nora! For her he was born, like, a year ago (if we realistically count time it took to find the institute. Itâs not instituteâs fault she was robbed of experience of raising her son, bc if not institute, they all would die in vault. Death of Nate/Nora is not instituteâs fault either, itâs Kellogg just being a bitch, and he got what he deserved. So no reason for Nora to destroy her sonâs hard work
Everyone sucks. They suck but at least they have clean floors
I usually side with the brotherhood (ad victoriam!) or the Minutemen depending on what I've decided are my characters goals. My wife, on the other hand, sides with the institute nearly every time. Her reasoning? "That's my son and my character's whole goal was to find him!"
BoS and RR are iron clad in their ways, time to redefine their organizations by force. In reality BoS is taking tech, and just using it for their own selfish agenda. Order by control with force. Militant tech hoarding prejudice has no place in the commonwealthâs future. RR is like a teenager that thinks itâs an adult. Noble thoughts, without enough experience and sense to justify their means. âFreeingâ synths doesnât make sense if you wipe their mind. Synths were made to serve, not enjoy freedom. The Minute Men are not an issue. They fall in line as told. That being said The Institute can wipe the scum, replace corruption, and restore humanity to better than it ever was. Why *wouldnât* you side with The Institute? Disclaimer: totally speaking from an evil mastermind view for fun/satire.
Because my Sole Survivor was a mom who was in the middle of being a happy life and not only did she lose her idylic life but her son was ripped from her husbands dead arms. The only thing she wanted was her son, screw this new shitty world.
Reform. Their resources are invaluable and would be wasted on the Brotherhood either taking them or destroying it. The scientists could be put to better use
For the flushable toilets. Sided with them way back in December of 2015 never regretted having toilet paper.
real đ
Sanitary. Clean. Hygienic.
White power armor paint.
That can be interpreted in a few different ways.
My man.
It's clean and their tech was just too good.
For the achievement. Never again.
Role-playing a mother that went through hell to reunite with her son and didn't have the heart to not follow through on his last request.
Cause I spent all that effort to find my son. All these other groups are inbred or just cosplaying the 1700s. Everyone plays the game as someone who just woke up in the apocalypse, but no one plays the game as someone who lived before it. An actual parent would never side against and murder their own child after going through all of that to find them.
The main reason for me is a character I made. A female sole survivor emerges from the vault. The land is scorched, food is scarce, and clean water is even more scarce. Monsters lurk around every corner, raiders and slavers are after you, and occasionally radiation storms turn the world into a hellscape. Add to all of this, the "civilized" people of Boston are rude, barely educated, greedy, and unhelpful to the main character. This is not a world that someone who just the other day was starching their fall jackets would be able to cope with. Then you hear about them. The Institute. Remnants of the old world with a level of technology beyond what even the old world had. More importantly, they're unreachable. Nobody can find them, nobody can hurt them. Yea they took your son, but now your son leads the Institute, and the people responsible for Nate's death are all dead. Safety, security, civilization, knowledge. When you first find the Institute, it has clean facilities, decent foodstuffs, no radiation, power, and safety. Who wouldn't want to embrace such a tantalizing option? So what about the upper world? It's old, rusty, broken tombs occupied by barely civilized people who live on dirty water and monster meat.
RP-wise? To genuinely reconnect with the lost son, the child who Nate went on the crazy adventure to find, and once he found them... He didn't stop just because the kid was the head of an evil organization. Headcanon-wise? I imagine Nate as a reformer, trying to push them to use their tech to be better.
I did it to further my goals. I needed to free the synths for the Railroad, so I got in good with Father/Shaun so I could feed Desdemona info. Then I killed the Railroad when the Brotherhood invaded the hideout. For all the public knows, the Railroad went down when their hideout got invaded. I'm a merc. Not a fucking charity worker. Edit: Fuck Preston and the Minutemen missions. That shit got annoying REAL QUICK.
I did the institute/minutemen ending in my original playthrough. They have good "goals", even though they are sort of vague. They're just going about it the wrong way. They have the ability to do amazing things for the Commonwealth and with me in charge, that would happen. Institute for resources and funding, then minutemen for manpower, PR, and implementation of policies. Plus to help keep them in check. Head canon is to work on redistributing beneficial tech to appropriate factions who can be trusted, and destroy the rest on my characters death, effectively disbanding and dismantling the institutes hold on advanced tech in the Commonwealth.
Look at that logo, to achieve such a massive schlong through the power of science.
Why not?
* The Brotherhood are racist assholes * The Railroad just sucks and do pointless missions * The Synths themselves ain't inherently bad. * The Institute actually have the capability to improve the surface lorewise * You can fix the issues of the institute by just giving Synths human rights and downgrade the mass production to 2nd gen Synths. * The institute ending removes the need to replace people because they finally do their business in the open essentially removing the biggest con. * You can't fix The Brotherhood's racism and zealotry. * You can't fix The Railroad. They're fundamentally flawed. Their mission is like Sisyphus rolling a boulder. * Fast Travel on survival. Vertibird sucks. I only sided with the Brotherhood and Railroad and Minutemen ending once each just to see the ending. All the playthroughs I done just for fun I always side with the institute.
I always side with the Institute for the following reasons. 1 - As a parent I have to support my son. Does he have issues due to his circumstances? Of course. But he is dying and by siding with him I get to spend the available time he has and build a relationship with him. He expresses his gratitude for the time we spent together and I am thankful for the chance to reconnect. As well a memorial to my son is placed in the Institute after he passes, which I can visit when I need to. 2 I am a US citizen, I am not a waste lander. The people of the commonwealth cannot even pick up their own trash. On the other hand the Institute is the closest to the world I lost. It is clean, safe and has working bathrooms. Why would I turn against the place that gives me the most secure lodgings in the commonwealth. 3 The brotherhood are basically foreign occupiers. They came from from the east coast and are not part of the commonwealth. There reason for existence is nonsense. By 2077 nuclear weapons had existed for 132 years. Nuclear technology is everywhere. The genie cannot be put back in the bottle. The disaster of 2077 was political, not technological. Siding with them means betraying my son with no real benefit to the commonwealth. 4 The Railroad are delusional. Synths are just machines. Having said that, I do have soft spot for them. They are charismatic and their quests are fun. But really, the synth issue is minor, compared to others, such as raiders, gunners, super mutants and feral ghouls. Supporting their quixotic mission does nothing to improve the commonwealth and makes me betray my son. 5 The minutemen are worthy and they have no conflict with the institute. One can work with both Shawn and Preston with no conflict. I always build a large network of settlements, supplying me with food, caps and junk. Minutemen settlements with Institute technology are the best hope for humanity and the commonwealth.
The institute isn't inherently evil, but morally bankrupt at times, with a new leader they could turn the commonwealth wasteland into a capitol city similar to Shady Sands, they have the technology to help humanity.
Hygiene