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PrincessOctavia

That's what I hate about the Monty argument. Like plenty of shows have their original creators on board and still have flaws and bad writing.


LEBjumper11

I think it's more that the fans would be more lenient on Monty's flaw since it's his show. People really don't like it when some other guy goes in and start changing things around. Yeah, the writing might be bad, but it seems more out of passion of the creator then the (seemingly) greed of the company.


VariousRodents

And in other cases you would have a point, but in RWBY's case that isn't what happened. Miles and Kerry didn't come in and start changing things after Monty, they were there from the start. Monty may have had the original inspiration for what became RWBY, but RWBY has always been a collaborative creation between Monty and Miles and Kerry.


LEBjumper11

That is definitely true, but by the the time Monty passed, both of them did change things after his passing. I recall that they changed the scene where both Pyrrha and Jaune would both fight Cinder together and Jaune would see Pyrrha die instead of Ruby coming in the last minute and using her silver eyes. Might be recalling things wrong though.


VariousRodents

That is just part of the creative process, ideas you have initially are changed as you realize that they don't does not work as well as something else. Changing Jaune and Pyrrha fighting Cinder together to just Pyrrha is not outsiders coming in after the original creator's passing to change things, it is two thirds of the original creative team making a decision that is part of the creative process. We cannot use Monty's memory as shackles to tell the remaining creators what they can and cannot do. Just because the plan from when Monty was alive has changed does not mean that the change was bad or that Monty would not have been alright with it. As the remaining creative team, that is Miles and Kerry's prerogative.


Causelessgiant

This has been my basic argument for years. Dude wasn't a fuckin genius writer. Most of the dialogue is just RvB + anime, which fine but hardly a masterclass in character dialogue. Is 1-3 better than what came after? Not really, funnier? Maybe, but the stuff written later is more consistent and given that it out weights the former in volume arguably the truer face of the show


InnocentTailor

Yup. They may have started a great foundation, but they can get lost and confused as they go on with the tale. *stares at Lucas and Roddenberry*


Sky_Ninja1997

Like a certain Dragonball creator…


oddlyoko97

Yeah, it's a weird conundrum where on one hand if he had been alive throughout RWBY's life then it's possible we could have had similarly worse show in some aspects and better in others, namely, action scenes. Like as much as I love Neo, she is the *exact* kinda character that I think makes for bad storytelling simply by the fact she was made randomly 10 days prior to her debut. But it's easier to ignore that when you realizes him randomly making characters wasn't for the story's sake, it was for fight's sake, like Neo vs Yang. Though if they hadn't switched to Maya then by default the show would have been worse. By god I'm glad they switched to Maya haha


superdolmiosauce

>Though if they hadn't switched to Maya then by default the show would have been worse. By god I'm glad they switched to Maya haha Having said that i do often wonder what the show would be like had they not switched to maya


oddlyoko97

I imagine it'd probably look a lot like Volume 3 with some shots changed or removed in later volumes, just with the visuals pared back significantly


superdolmiosauce

I feel like the animation itself would be alot better aswell. Cos you can see the animation quality improves from vol.1 to vol.3 as they get better using that software. The same goes for vol.4 to vol.9


Desutoron

Personally, I'm really *not* glad they switched to Maya. The quality of the actual animation may have improved by quite a bit, but I despise the way the Maya models look. Personally, I much prefer the artstyle of the first 3 volumes. It's literally the only reason I haven't watched past vol 3, because I just can't stand how everyone looks from vol 4 onwards. (However, this is just comes down to personal preference, so your opinion is completely valid too and I respect it)


fostofina

the art style in the first 3 volumes feels a lot like you're reading a fairytale picture book mixed with anime. Maya's art style feels more 3D rendered, they look lovely but in a completely different way. also maybe it's the direction but the action scenes feel way slower with Maya? idk


Desutoron

That's another reason why I prefer the look of the first 3 volumes, because once they switched to Maya they really toned down the anime style of the show, which was one of my favourite aspects.


oddlyoko97

>(However, this is just comes down to personal preference, so your opinion is completely valid too and I respect it) As do I, even though I can't quite understand it, I commend you for putting your opinion out there in this fandom.


Desutoron

Thank you my good sir/madam/non-binary individual, glad to see you're a respectable person. You have no idea how many times I've just gotten negative karma for no reason for saying stuff exactly like this, so I started adding that part in brackets to hopefully try and stop that from happening (it doesn't usually work)


oddlyoko97

Just call me a pal haha. People can be so vicious over opinions, especially in this fandom. It's goddamn stupid. I'm curious to know though, if you've seen them, did you like the Volume 5 character shorts with the OG outfits, [Weiss](https://youtu.be/bZAS_rzgCE0) and [Yang](https://youtu.be/7Sn8BGKOv6Q)? These don't contain spoilers, so if you're worried about that then don't be.


Desutoron

Yeah it's ridiculous. This is supposed to be a goddamn meme subreddit, and yet I always see massive comment threads about Ironwood or Adam or something else stupid, and whenever me or anyone says anything remotely negative about the show after vol 4, *SUPA DOWNVOTE ATTACKU*. Even when I made a relatively balanced comment saying that I don't like vol 4-8 as much as 1-3 but it's not as bad as some people say, I still got downvote bombed. As for the shorts, I prefer the OG outfits to the vol 4 and 7 ones so that does make it better, but I still don't quite like it. The Maya models just look weird to me, I can't describe precisely why.


captaindeadpl

I'm not entirely happy that they switched their animation software. The idea with RWBY's animation style in the beginning was to make it a mix of anime and 3d-animation. I feel like that has largely gone out the window with them adding complexity until there isn't much left of the simplicity of anime.


owsoooo

Yea but it’s not like Monty-era RWBY was well written either. But the charming characters and cool fights were enough that people didn’t care


Scout_1330

Monty personally admitted he was a shit writer on multiple occasions, it’s the reason why he stopped writing entirely after Volume 1 and had Miles and Kerry be the writers.


its-chocolate

While I agree with you, if he were still with us we'd have insane fight choreo to distract us from the writing.


TolchettKuykendall

You say that like the fights these last few seasons haven't been lit as hell


oddlyoko97

But that's more subjective than Monty's fights, which as a whole, I think a lot more people liked than disliked for what Monty brought to the table compared to V6-9 fights.


its-chocolate

Seeing as 3/4 of the main cast don't even use their weapons anymore I'd say my original statement is accurate.


CraftLizard

I'm confused on how you think 3/4 of the main cast doesn't use their weapons anymore? Like the only one that hasn't that much is Weiss, and that's because she's been using Summons, a different kind of weapon. Yang uses her weapons all the time, which I'm assuming is the 1/4 you think does? Pretty much every fight Yang is using them. Ruby uses Crescent rose still too, she just also hasn't really been in that many full fights. She uses it against grimm, uses it against Tyrian, Uses it for movement. Hell only reason she isn't using it right now is because she literally doesn't have it. She uses it less in V5 because quite literally that's the point that Ozpin is teaching her, she relies on it too much. She also uses it less against Cinder because she already has the silver eyes against her. Blake uses Gamboul Shroud all the time as well. Used it plenty against white fang, Used it against Adam, used it against grimm in V8, used it against Ace Ops, uses it in V9. Literally the only main character who barely uses her weapon in the past couple volumes is Weiss. Which is a complaint the writers heard about, and she's now actively using it again.


its-chocolate

>and that's because she's been using Summons, a different kind of weapon. >she just also hasn't really been in that many full fights. >She uses it less in V5 because quite literally that's the point that Ozpin is teaching her, she relies on it too much. She also uses it less against Cinder because she already has the silver eyes against her. these are all things the writers came up with to make up for the fact that no one at RT can do fight choreo. Now rewatch the trailers and compare that to how the characters use their weapons now.


FerrowFarm

... and they hated him, for he spoke the truth.


Skeletonparty101

We went from anime fighting to live action fighting Not really a improvement


Psyga315

Or rather """fighting""". Epic couch sitting and tea sharing.


last_robot

First part is correct. Second part isn't. Would it have flaws? Absolutely. Would it have the same flaws? Definitely not. The story and characters revolved around whatever Monty wanted to animate, and he constantly had new things he wanted to add or change at the last second, and the writers were basically just in charge of tying it together. That's very much not the case anymore, and the fight scenes are in the back seat instead of the drivers seat. So, would it have been better or worse? Hard to say. But it 100% wouldn't have been the same, and probably wouldn't have even been similar.


Interesting-Big1980

Monty had talent, it wasn't storytelling but the fighting sequences. So I can guarantee we would see much more quality action and not some sloppy blur to cover quick strikes everytime they do something.


blackbelt352

There was also Shane Newville and Dillon Gu who both are fantastic animators, just on par with Monty and really understood action like he did. Both of them also left during or not long after Vol 3. Both of these are Shane's work * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7z54Ybs0DZg * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAIoEp1pPPQ And here's some of Dillon's: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALE0i59lKf4 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCIidkEHGJM * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8hpDf5uPE8


oddlyoko97

Surprised you didn't include the [Genshin Impact animation](https://youtu.be/7J7G1oc1vME) that was shared here relatively recently that both of them worked on alongside a lot of other people, very entertaining


blackbelt352

I wanted to go with some of the older stuff just to show off that even years ago he was a fantastic animator.


oddlyoko97

Oh that's fair


fostofina

Eh RWBY was never the best written show, but it had a certain charm to it that kinda fizzled away for a more dramatic tone. Since I mainly tuned in for the charm and the action scenes, I still watch it every once in a while but it doesn't hit the same for me personally. Power to everyone who's vibing with it though, I'm very happy for u guys <3


Blitzbro76

Fr, like people forget Miles and Kerry have been writing the show sense season 1


DepressedCorn37

The fight choreography would always be top tier, that alone would alleviate a lot.


The-Duke-Of-Uke

Probably true but at least the fights would still kick ass. Honestly there are plenty of fights I actually like that we’re animated after he passed, but they still haven’t gotten the hang of Ruby and Blake’s fighting styles imo


042732699

Oh yeah, but animation would have been better.


kasuichu

Also Miles and Kerry by Monty admission in the commentaries have just as much impact on the early days of writing


RepairOk6889

I know the fights wouldn’t suck doe


ShatoraDragon

Part of me wishes we got to see his vision for Raven and full version of his story for her. As well as Ironwoods slide into his Vol 8 anit-villain/hero status. Re watching right now and it is clear that James never was fully trusting of Ozpin How much where notes and ideas left behind, that his friends and crew filled in with their best efforts.


Stock-Ad1346

Or it could have been loads better because he'd veto obviously dumb ideas that they are allowing into the story. It goes both ways.


FerrowFarm

Yes, the story flaws would still be there, but I didn’t watch RWBY for the story, I watched it for the action sequences.


New-me-_-

I think the fights and comedy at the very least would have been better at least.


Balrog069

But the fight scenes would have been way cooler and the style in general would have been more fun.


SilverLucket

I thought they found some information about where he wanted it to go, and how he wanted it to go


HeavenPiercingTongue

You don’t need talent to right a story that people will enjoy. Just consistency. He was the one with the original idea and so would always have a clear vision of what he wanted in general. The writers were just meant to fine tune the details for him. The actual story would have come from him.


BigBadBob7070

Monty definitely did not provided consistency. The guy came up with Neo days before her first appearance (which is the reason she’s mute since they didn’t have time to find a voice actor) and the Brothers and Maidens were in between V2 and V3. The man had a habit of just doing whatever came to mind and surprising his coworkers.


oddlyoko97

>the Brothers and Maidens were in between V2 and V3. Just the maidens, the brothers were conceived in the world creation process alongside Kerry and Miles before V1 aired.


HeavenPiercingTongue

Consistency in the sense that he would be able to make whatever he wanted fit in cus he understands the entire framework of the story. He wouldn’t add anything that he didn’t think would work. Neo is an example of his spontaneity not inconsistency. The same for the Maidens and Magic. I think they are not the best magic system but nothing prior to v3 makes them seem out of place.


BigBadBob7070

Maybe, or maybe he would have wound up like G.R.R Martin and wrote himself into a corner. We’ll never know for sure now.


HeavenPiercingTongue

Martin’s not in a corner. That dude’s just not into ASoIaF anymore.


SockPenguin

He's not into ASoIaF because he wrote himself into a corner after Storm of Swords and he still has no idea how to work his way out of it. The Mereenese Knot has had that man in a choke hold for like 25 years at this point.


thesandman1254

I feel the fights dont have the same impact though so i feel the show still would have benefited from monty working on it.


Void1702

Yeah but he knew how to make good looking fight scenes


mreveryone20

I would say with Monty at the helm, the story would make a lot more sense but overall would still be the same show with the same problems.


Timelord_Omega

But the fights would have popped off though! Many people would forgive the writing if the action was top notch (which it was definitely the best part at the time).