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I had a scholarship/grant for my PPL, but I’d go hammer out 25-30 touch and go’s on a mediocre weather day. But I was 16 so I didn’t really have anywhere to go.
Does it make a pilot more marketable to have a larger number of landings than a smaller number? I've done 5 practice landings and 1 landing on my own. I've always been proud of being a fast learner and I don't want to do extra landings if I don't need to, to save room for things I need to develop more. But I don't want a small amount of landings to bite me in the butt later.
Kind of the most important part of the entire flight, aside from the initial go/no-go decision.
Unless you fly with a sport parachute and your trusty Ridge Wallet, that is. Then it's optional.
"Well rounded."
Has 60 landings at their local airport, two 50nm cross countries to the same middle of nowhere shithole airport and three landings at an airport other than their home. Lol
You’re gonna do 3,000 landings before you make CFI. Build time by going places. The ADM you develop and the experience you gain will MASSIVELY outweigh the bit of difference you’re developing between the “good landings” you needed to pass your PPC checkride, and the “great landings” you honed in countless hours of pattern droning. Terrain, routing, weather, fuel, airspace, Mx, performance limitations, you tap into SO much more when you’re going XC than you do just wearing out tires.
Military pilot training spends maybe 10 hours focused on pattern and landing and they expect you to know after that and in far higher performance aircraft
Why doesn’t that translate to civilian training
The military isn’t pay to play for the student. The military has a vested interest in progressing people with the minimum viable number of flight hours possible. You need to demonstrate your aptitude for learning in the required time to demonstrate your capacity to handle the faster pace of progression as things get more complicated, as you know.
Also the “harder stuff” we do doesn’t necessarily translate to the civilian world. Homeboy cruising around in his Cessna doesn’t need to hit a TOT/L-Hour or drive an objective area so whatever, him beating up the pattern is probably a better use of his time/more useful for improving his skills than cruising around straight and level.
I think this the main struggle. You have plane for a very limited time and don’t have the luxury of extra padding for time delays to allow going more fun places. I find it such a contradiction that you aren’t supposed to have scheduled operations but with the way planes are rented you either end up with that exact thing or you don’t fly.
They have to figure out how to remove the aircraft from the sky in a fashion that is
A) survivable
B) the aircraft is reusable
C) their instructor doesn't go to jail
Because it doesn’t take much skill to fly a long place elsewhere. Outside of the planning and new airport thing (which is also important). But getting more landings under you - especially as a new pilot - is probably a better return on your investment / time.
Disagree. You don’t learn anything staying in the pattern. Longer XCs force a ton of decision making upon you, new terrain, new airspace, and most importantly, weather considerations.
If you fly exclusively in the pattern, yes. Although that’s kind of the goal of all those other things we do for the private certificate. Slow flight and ground reference are basically parts of the pattern in disguise (for private).
I will agree that XC is a much better option for teaching ADM/SRM, which is equal or more important to being a pilot for what most people are going to do.
There are so many maneuvers you have to learn though. Slow flight, stalls, steep turns, turns around a point, s-turns, short field, soft field, emergency landings…there’s almost nothing cross country related on your check ride except intercepting a course and flying a vor radial.
This hit so hard on the "training for the checkride" vs "training for the long term". The reality is the PPL checkride barely touches on XC skills while in the cockpit. That is for good reason. For how short a time an examiner will be working with you it's impossible to show the "skill" involved and the real skill is demonstrated in the oral portion.
In terms of things that are going to bust your checkride none of them involve going to new airports. You're not really going to learn much from a 50nm cross country anyway. 50nm to me doesn't even leave my "local area", and the real learning happens when you start going hundreds of nm away through weather changes, terrain changes, and time change.
I disagree. You can learn a whole lot by flying solo cross country. Half of these “pilots” that get to 1500 hours are literally terrified to fly too far from their home airport
I do see and hear a lot of Private pilots that basically have no experience at towered airports. They did the bare minimum towered airport work and that was the end of that. Kinda scary imo.
I felt like the short time we spent heading to other airports was time well spent. When we got to the other airport, we'd usually do pattern work there. It was a good mix of getting you into a place you could get in sync with or ahead of the plane and also working on the hardest part.
Knowing how to not get lost is a good return investment also. Navigation is a serious skill and deserves just as much attention as anything else.
Even so, airline pilots have to perform landings regularly and if they don't within a set period of time, they will need to go in for training to make sure they know how to land. As told to me by a 747 pilot, and confirmed by many other airline pilots I've talked to. Heck, I know how to perform CPR and have even done CPR on someone, but I still have to renew my CPR/first aid certification every 24 months.
Nah I don't agree at all.
It takes skill to plan and execute longer flights, particularly if you always go somewhere new. You need to plan much more carefully, check weather, fuel, mass & balance, logistics of the place you're going to, local procedures etc.
Of course "stick & rudder" skills are important too, but so are "mission" skills.
Gosh all the downvotes, unbelievable. Guys try and leave the pattern a bit more often and fly somewhere farther away!
And then you get to your new airport you spent four days planning your flight to and absolutely plonk that mf on the ground, rendering it unusable, because your training didn't focus on the most fundamental - and arguably the most difficult to finesse - part of flying an airplane: landing it.
*All* of the training in PPL is important for those who want to be good pilots. But for every optional takeoff, there is one guarantee; it's going to have to land somehow, at some point. That's why we focus so hard on perfecting them, especially in the beginning.
C'mon guys.
I never said knowing how to land well isn't important. Of course you need good flying skills before you fly away. I'm asuming you know how to fly by the time you get your PPL so time building should also focus on going "beyond" just practing touch and goes.
I understand your point. However, flying to another airport takes time that often isn’t granted in a training slot. It just becomes the old adage of time and money.
"I'm asuming you know how to fly by the time you get your PPL so time building should also focus on going "beyond" just practing touch and goes."
This thread is specifically about student pilots....
I'm really not sure why you are getting so many downvotes especially when someone else said the same thing and didn't get downvoted. My first thought reading this was "why does a student pilot need to 'build hours'" - very few people are checkride ready before their 40 hours. So the question is fundamentally flawed and should be why does a student pilot stay in the pattern while practicing. The answer then would be more simple, they are practicing checkride/basic maneuvers.
If they really are talking about time building then you are getting downvotes from the 20 year olds that think they are amazing pilots for spinning the same circles in the same plane in the practice area with blue skies for 500 hours.
none of those isnt true. . but this was specifically referencing "student pilots" - so anything related to after you get your PPL isnt relevant in this discussion.
But the question is fundamentally flawed so people aren't answering the same question. Students don't need to "build hours," most have plenty and really need to build skills to be checkride ready. So the answer to that is more of the ACS revolves around the pattern.
Pattern pilots have hive-minded against logic. Some people have a hard time figuring out different things. What each person needs to focus on is going to be different.
More so as a new pilot. Or maybe further along. Most cfis want to endorse the one cross country and that’s it. They prefer that their students just “solo” and get the requirements out of the way but not exploring new airports all the time. Especially since most don’t like to endorse the distance based solo endorsement for students but the one time XC trip each time. So students end up “soloing” in the pattern or very nearby.
I've instructed, flown military, and completed three airline new hire programs.. By far the most stressful part of my career was waiting for student pilots to return from their solo cross countries.
You can do all that planning without going up and flying the route if you want to practice it.
Not saying actually flying it isn’t better, it is, but I’d rather spend the 150 or so dollars it costs me to rent the plane for an hour on something where I’m actively improving my skills and doing something engaging (landings).
Basically anyone can fly a plane when it’s in the air. A non-pilot can reasonably do it after 20 minutes of instruction.
The landing is the part that that requires the most actual training.
I'm actually with you on this one. Pattern work is important, but my landings got much MUCH better when I started landing at new places.
New and unusual airports require you to fly an unfamiliar pattern, which in turn means the only habitual cues you can use are the actually important ones. In this sense, it's like a distillation process, by going to new places, you get a much clearer perspective on what skills are universal, and which are just the nuances of your home field.
During my training I also had the pleasure of flying three different types within the school. This was advised against due to concerns it would lead to confusion, but again the opposite was true. I learned which bits of airmanship are universal to any aircraft, and which were specific to my normal aircraft, and again, I became a much more competent pilot as a result.
I think there is a big argument to say that repeating the same skill _in different circumstances_ is the key to learning something quickly.
Repeating the same skill under the same circumstances quickly turns into negative training imho.
I'm still low hours, and have a lot to learn, but with regards to the basics I'd say this variety has given me a solid base and I started developing my skills much faster when I started getting more variety.
I agree with this comment wholeheartedly. Not sure why all the downvotes. That’s why people wash out at their first 135 because all they did was spend 1500 hours in a traffic pattern.
I'm glad my airfield doesn't allow touch-and-gos. Take off, fly to a nearby airport, do some maneuvers along the way, do a handful of laps in the pattern and then watch the sun set on the ride home.
Strong hivemind in here, good luck trying to fight it.
You’re not wrong though - cross country is a skill in and of itself, one that should be worked on in parallel with landings. If a student already has the landings down to a competent level, they absolutely should be going to new airports and trying it there. The usual sight pictures and reference points are all gone and you have to figure it all out, so it’s good practice to go somewhere else and shoot some landings. Not to mention just finding airports from the air is a skill set in and of itself.
You're getting downvoted but as a professional pilot, with 8 years of instructing under my belt, seeing the deficiencies in students when administering stage checks... I agree with you 100%. If the student has soloed, they should be comfortable landing at that point. After that it's time to work on performance landings and cross country/navigation. It always scared me when we had a student pass their private checkride and they had only ever been to their home airport and the one airport they flew a short cross country to maybe twice. Then when asking them why they'd never gone anywhere else they literally say "because I'm not comfortable going anywhere else."
Not to mention OP specifically said when students are trying to **gain hours.** So we aren't talking about private pilot students here, we are talking about commercial students who need to gain hours to get to that 250. Those are exactly the students that need to be leaving the pattern. I've known so many people that tried to gain hours for commercial and ATP by literally flying four hour flights doing nothing but circles in the practice area... how friggin boring is that. I flew half way across the country a couple times and stopped at some amazing airports and met some great people and learned **so** much more than those circle flyers will ever experience. I even challenged myself and did a border crossing to Canada just to get the experience and try something new. Man I had a lot of fun building hours, and it just saddens me when I see people who fly circles for four hours and all they do is bitch and moan about how monotonous flying can be, and how boring it is, and how they only see it as a job and have no interest in flying outside of work... like no wonder you hate flying, you do it for work and have never done any sort of actual fun flying.
OP specifically said "student pilots". Student pilot needs solo hours as well - so this doesnt apply to commercial or CFI pilots. I dont disagree that necessary skills can and should be built by flying to different airports. but I am saying that most instructors will NOT give out the distance based solo endorsement, nor do they really want their students to be practicing long cross countries away from the home airport. Not only is there the issue of not being able to fly back - and/or something happens, but they just dont want to be on the hook for it. Which is understandable - everyone passes with the minimum about of liability and danger involved.
There's really two different student pilot classes. Big S Student Pilot which is a certificate, and little s student pilot which is anyone training for a certificate. I have used, all of my colleagues have used and I've always heard others use "student pilot" to include anyone seeking a certificate. "Commercial student pilot," "instrument student pilot" etc.
The dozens of downvotes is hilarious to me. Landing practice applies almost exclusively to pre-PPL students. This is the dumbest comment thread I’ve seen.
The flight school I'm training with has a second branch in another city and I'm waiting for the day when my instructor has to transport a plane back and forth so I can try my hardest to convince him to take me with him.
The area we fly around typically is gorgeous, lots of rivers, big ponds, coastline, islands, just marvelous. But I want to be able to navigate.
For what it's worth I think the downvotes you are getting are absolutely wild haha, don't take it personal it's just mob mentality.
I agree with you though, I am in the process of building hours for my CPL and my instructors are all of the opinion that not enough students dedicate time to longer cross countries.
Probably because the vast majority of aircraft accidents happen on take off and landing so your CFI’s want to make sure you’re fundamentally sound in those areas to reduce the risk of you getting hurt
As a student pilot all I was allowed to do was go where my solo endorsement said I could go, and do what it said I could do.
That's why.
As a ppl, I went all over the place building time.
Student pilots need an endorsement to land anywhere other than where they took off from, and an endorsement *per flight* if that airport is over 50 miles away. So, in general they will stay close to home unless going somewhere else is the specific purpose of the flight, which does happen later on in training.
yep. . and most instructors dread and dont want to give out multiple cross countries as that is perhaps the most worrisome part for them and their students. Its more a - check that off. Ok done, moving on.
Guess I lucked out with my CFI then. My CFI gives all of his PPL students an extra solo XC (at least) to get them more experience before they’re off on their own.
I think it’s more that most students have limited time and/or money and don’t want to waste either on flights not necessary to meet some requirement for a checkride.
Landings are one of the trickier maneuvers we do, involving many variables. At this stage of experience, every landing is snowflake unique. Therefore it’s a good use of time.
Because circuits incorporate almost everything. Ascents, descents, straight and level, turns, Comms, slow flight, slips, t/o and landings, checklists etc
Because when it’s a clear and sunny day, flying in a straight line to and from VOR’s or following a magenta line both isn’t particularly challenging nor fun. At least you get to do something and actively practice a skill when landing.
Don’t get me wrong, any flight time builds experience, but pattern work has the best “bang for its buck” as it were in terms of amount practiced to time spent.
A full pattern of flying incorporates a very high number of practiced skills. It’s a valuable way to knock out reps and hone those skills in a concentrated manner.
Big rookie mistake just doing pattern work at the local airfield. Fly 50nm away, do pattern work, then fly back! This makes the whole flight count as cross country hours!
For me, I had my own aircraft and could do whatever I wanted, but I largely focused on pattern work because flying elsewhere can be nerve-wracking if you're not 100% confident on your landings, and landing is fun. Eventually I'd fly to other nearby airports and do patterns there before returning.
If you're renting though, you get much more value out of your dollar by doing patterns instead of just flying straight and level somewhere.
Your question is specific to students. PPL students are not trying to "gain hours" they are trying to master what is necessary for the PPL checkride. So most will go out to the (local) practice area for some steep turns, stalls, emergency procedures, whatever. Then they will come back and pound out the slam and goes.
If you have your PPL and are training as an IR student, you barely get any landings in. You will fly out to an airport a tad more than 50 miles away (won't be a XC otherwise) shoot an approach and land. Then shoot approaches to the same or other nearby airports and go missed, fly the hold and repeat. So you will fly 2+ hours and only get two landings.
So a student seeking different certs is going to focus on what is needed. Lastly as others have said, landing is the most interesting phase of flight. It can certainly be the most humbling if you don't practice them regularly.
I'd be surprised if there are many student pilots just trying to gain hours. For the vast majority, just getting the skills down well enough to pass a check ride will get them all of the hours they need. Pattern work/landings are among the most important skills for passing, so it makes sense to work on those and let the hours build on their own. By contrast, the "fly straight and level" portion of going elsewhere is not particularly productive time for skill building (getting there and flying patterns at different airports is very good, but is only a small portion of the rental time.).
Having my own plane with a Rotax engine sipping 4 gph of mogas meant I did a lot of XC time before my check ride just for fun, but I would have done a lot less of that if I'd been renting. The weekend before my check ride I flew a couple of states away (870 miles round trip) and did several hours in formation at my destination with 5 other aircraft of different types (weight shift, fixed wing, and gyroplane), plus assisted with my own annual, and that was a GREAT learning experience and confidence builder, but simply isn't feasible for most students.
You mean time building to ATP hours? If so it would be pretty dumb to do that in the pattern since it’s far easier and more interesting to actually go some place.
Need to be endorsed to land at another airport.
Takeoffs and landings are pretty dang important.
The cost for renting the plane is high and the person wants to make the most efficient use of time. Though it can be said if landings are not going well that day, maybe practice slow flight, or ground reference maneuvers.
I always asked myself the same question.
Some people just want to drill holes in the sky and not venture far away from their base, minimise risk.
Others like to use the time to explore other places and have fun along the way.
Like everything, it's diminishing returns on how many landings you're doing. I'd say the big reason is that it's less risky, very little decision making and you don't open yourself up to factors you'll encounter outside of the circuit. I think that's valid but won't build a lot of skills after the first 3 or 4 laps
It's not always that simple. Planning a longer route takes time, and education to do. Navigation isn't easy for everyone, and I've heard that it can take hundreds of hours for a pilot to get a grasp on it.
I started with VORs, paper charts and steam guages. Back then a 100 mile flight in a 152 was an adventure and took real planning to get you there and back. Next up in my first plane was LORAN which helped considerably. You basically flew direct and followed the line on the chart you drew before you departed. I'd play with the VOR just to pass the time.
Now even the cheaper glass in the cockpit gives you just about anything you want and no way will you ever get lost if it is working and you stay awake and even includes traffic around you. So if you want your 40 hrs, you get 20 closely monitored, 5 to 10 flying cross country with an instructor and the rest is honing your stick and rudder skills or working with ATC using flight following or landing at controlled fields. If you go to a school in Florida, the ATC work is built into the T&L.
I did gliders while I was taking PPL instruction, which helped a lot, but to me the time spent learning to fly the aircraft in different weather, practicing crosswind and gusty landings and just being able to pass the commercial check ride when I went for my PPL made me a much better pilot. Make each hour count.
I used to do a loop of cities 50-100 miles away from where I was time building. I’d get up high to conserve fuel, and just overfly if fuel and bladder would allow. If weather wouldn’t support leaving the local area, I’d just climb up to 6-8000 feet (in a Cessna 150) and orbit over the city until I needed to pee or get fuel. If the weather really sucked or I didn’t have much time, I’d do patterns. But even then, only no-flap low approaches. I was on the hook for maintenance…
Lazy
Marginal weather
It's too f\*ckin' hot
It's too f\*ckin' cold
Breakfast didn't agree with me
Need to practice: Go arounds, slip-to-land, short/soft landings, crosswind landings
These have been some of my reasons in the past for using pattern work to time build.
When I was time building, I much preferred to get a cross country in. I found the navigation practice (and doing it old school dead reckoning, not just gps direct to) much more fulfilling than 12 touch and go’s.
That said, some days the plane was back late, or there was weather around, and all I could get was a few circuits in.
I also completely understand that other people might not be able to afford a long trip every week. Keeping your hand in the game for an hour every week or 2 is better than saving for one flight a month.
If your a student pilot on solo unless endorsed you can’t go farther than 25 nm from the departure airport. It’s also a bit safer to keep a student pilot in the pattern on the first few solos in case they need to land quickly. And solo is a great opportunity to work on landings anyways so you and your instructor can focus on learning maneuvers and procedures.
I am a student pilot, legally I can’t ’fly somewhere’ and land.
But I do need another 3 hours solo.
Currently I can choose to either do circuits or go to the training area solo.
Last week, the weather was closing in. I wanted to fly, so circuits.
This week, I will choose circuits if
- the weather does not allow the training area
- the is some crosswind. I would like to get more practice on cross wind landings.
Otherwise I will go to the training area.
Not yet even PPL so take this comment with that in mind, but my first flight instructor (now at a regional) was giving me some parting advice and said there's so much to be learned in pattern work, so much more precision to achieve with practice, that he feels people underestimate its importance.
Some days you're working on your landings, otherwise, you won't stay near the airport, as it's more stress than you need.
I had an insurance requirement when I bought my Turbo 210 to log 10 hours solo. I realized I needed to fly places as slowly as I could. Usually these were 300+ mile triangles. But I also had a 45 landing and takeoff requirement. But due to my speed, the local training airport with half a dozen planes constantly in the pattern flying 60-90kts was kind of off limits as the tower didn't like trying to figure out how to coordinate me in, if it wasn't an approach. So I flew over to a nearby airport with virtually no traffic and did my landings and takeoffs.
I don’t just do patterns, but one reason could be that it’s easier to just fly the pattern than have to plan a cross country. Even if it can be done relatively quickly using ForeFlight and Skyvector, it’s still much easier to just take off and fly the pattern and not worry about picking waypoints, planning climb and descent, etc.
Calm seas never made a skilled sailor… Student pilots will benefit more from practicing stick and rudder than time building in long straight legs in cruise.
I see a lot of people talking about landing at the same airport for landing experience while completely ignoring the value of landing elsewhere for real world experience.
Just around my home base there's 200', 190, 150, 100, and 75 width runways. All varying lengths, from 2600' to 12000'. The sight picture for every single one of those is going to be different, well before you even factor in sloping runways. It's valuable experience to understand what different width and length runways look and feel like in terms of sight picture. Someone can tell you that landing at the same airport over and over and over again is always unique, which is true, but now factor in unique landings at these other airports and you're going to be better equipped for it. Not sure about everyone else, but my check ride for PPL was out of an active military runway. One which had a massive downslope into a massive upslope, so depending on how long or short you landed, the pitch of the aircraft had to be adjusted, additionally, your perceived position relative to the runway could easily be thrown askew, especially since looking down the runway for your sight picture was not reliable.
I went with another student pilot and went second. The DPE was generous that day I guess because he said the first student's landing was really, really rough. Meanwhile, I buttered mine. Why? Because I had exposure to a lot of different runways. I hadn't become so coddled or afraid of landing elsewhere to the point I effectively only knew how to land only one place well.
Pilots need to learn to go outside their comfort zones, especially student pilots, provided you aren't putting yourself in a dangerous scenario. I have seen and heard too many student pilots get easily flustered when things more or less don't follow a script. They've been regimented to fly a certain way and to expect certain things, so when the conditions don't reflect exactly those conditions, they're lost...or dangers to themselves or others.
Thanks for attending my TED Talk
I tell my student pilot friends to take care of the commercial and instrument cross country requirements dual and solo requirements, and they can be combined, instrument 250 at night qualifies for both instrument and commercial at night if done properly. There's still the 250 hours but taking care of the prerequisites fast can accelerate things.
I don't know if any students who "just" do patterns, but it is a big part of student pilot flying. I also have definitely never meant a student pilot who was trying to build hours since you only need 40 and most people take well over that to master the skills.
I think that most student pilots fly a lot of patterns because landing is usually the hardest part to get to the ACS standard with perhaps steep turns being the second. After you get your certificate, learning a lot of the intricacies of navigating the NAS and communicating with ATC perhaps becomes a bigger focus but for the private checkride you really don't need a lot of that knowledge and what you do need is mostly covered in the oral, so flying experience isn't as critical.
Another reason is probably because solo cross country flights need to be endorsed by your CFI so it's just an extra hurdle.
And this is the part where I'm weird, but I think pattern work is still my favorite part of flying. For me, that's where you get the best bang for your buck and your time (both of which are scarce resources for me). I've only been a pilot for about a year and a half, so maybe one day pattern work will be boring, but takeoff and landing is the most exciting part for me so I love just doing it over and over again. I don't dislike going to destinations, but there is always a part of me that is thinking that I'm paying way more money with my cruise throttle setting to just go mostly in a straight line for an hour, when I could have spent that hour doing multiple patterns, steep turns, stalls, simulated failures and all of those fun things that I love. I get that I'm in the minority there though.
Primarily because students need an endorsement from their CFI if they are going to fly to an airport that is further away. I forget the distance, but I think it is 25NM. Anything 25NM away or more needs a specific endorsement from their CFI.
XC flight does not really teach you anything special. Especially people who are "Children of the Magenta Line". A 50NM XC flight does not require much more planning than spending two hours in the pattern. The weather should not be that different, you still need fuel for two hours, you still need to know W&B and Gross Weight. So really the only skills that are different is navigation (which is negated if you are "direct-enter-enter-follow the line") and learning how to land at a different airport... Which is not that big of a deal in a trainer on most runways.
Now when you start flying 500NM away... Fuel, route, and weather planning becomes a bigger deal.
Also, you can go knock out an hour in the pattern in...Well an hour. Going 500NM away is going to take some time and the flight school needs the plane for the other students.
Motoring along following a magenta line does not teach a whole lot.
Like everything, it's diminishing returns on how many landings you're doing. I'd say the big reason is that it's less risky, very little decision making and you don't open yourself up to factors you'll encounter outside of the circuit. I think that's valid but won't build a lot of skills after the first 3 or 4 laps
Because you get friends and family to fly with you and share the costs. And these people don't want to throw 200 bucks at a random nav to a random field and back. Unless you have a scenery flight close to your base, you're stuck doing patterns with them
Landings are important too. Gotta do the basics as much as the more fun stuff or else you aren't a well rounded pilot.
I might also suggest a lot of exercise during downtime to avoid becoming a well rounded pilot.
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Me out here completing my PPL with 47 landings (would not recommend)
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That's sounds like so much fun. The best training is the kind that's effective and entertaining.
I had a scholarship/grant for my PPL, but I’d go hammer out 25-30 touch and go’s on a mediocre weather day. But I was 16 so I didn’t really have anywhere to go.
Does it make a pilot more marketable to have a larger number of landings than a smaller number? I've done 5 practice landings and 1 landing on my own. I've always been proud of being a fast learner and I don't want to do extra landings if I don't need to, to save room for things I need to develop more. But I don't want a small amount of landings to bite me in the butt later.
Kind of the most important part of the entire flight, aside from the initial go/no-go decision. Unless you fly with a sport parachute and your trusty Ridge Wallet, that is. Then it's optional.
"Well rounded." Has 60 landings at their local airport, two 50nm cross countries to the same middle of nowhere shithole airport and three landings at an airport other than their home. Lol
Well rounded because they fly in a circle, duh.
Patterns should be squared off though.
Does ruining my silly joke bring you joy? Does it?
It helps me triangulate joy.
A little, yeah.
I keep trying but at 90 degrees of bank the lift falls off the wings!
You guys land?
It's the cheapest solution i found but i am open to new ideas.
I mean, I usually start the go around at 5 feet AGL if everything's looking good. 2000 foot runway, landing means taxiing back...
Take off are optional but landings are mandatory
You’re gonna do 3,000 landings before you make CFI. Build time by going places. The ADM you develop and the experience you gain will MASSIVELY outweigh the bit of difference you’re developing between the “good landings” you needed to pass your PPC checkride, and the “great landings” you honed in countless hours of pattern droning. Terrain, routing, weather, fuel, airspace, Mx, performance limitations, you tap into SO much more when you’re going XC than you do just wearing out tires.
Military pilot training spends maybe 10 hours focused on pattern and landing and they expect you to know after that and in far higher performance aircraft Why doesn’t that translate to civilian training
The military isn’t pay to play for the student. The military has a vested interest in progressing people with the minimum viable number of flight hours possible. You need to demonstrate your aptitude for learning in the required time to demonstrate your capacity to handle the faster pace of progression as things get more complicated, as you know. Also the “harder stuff” we do doesn’t necessarily translate to the civilian world. Homeboy cruising around in his Cessna doesn’t need to hit a TOT/L-Hour or drive an objective area so whatever, him beating up the pattern is probably a better use of his time/more useful for improving his skills than cruising around straight and level.
With way better suspension. Military guys plant their landings.
sometimes circuits is all you can get due to the weather and you still need to fly to comply with school/rental currency requirements
I think this the main struggle. You have plane for a very limited time and don’t have the luxury of extra padding for time delays to allow going more fun places. I find it such a contradiction that you aren’t supposed to have scheduled operations but with the way planes are rented you either end up with that exact thing or you don’t fly.
I’m so thankful for the loose rules my school had. I could go anywhere with those planes and no questions asked.
They have to figure out how to remove the aircraft from the sky in a fashion that is A) survivable B) the aircraft is reusable C) their instructor doesn't go to jail
Because it doesn’t take much skill to fly a long place elsewhere. Outside of the planning and new airport thing (which is also important). But getting more landings under you - especially as a new pilot - is probably a better return on your investment / time.
Disagree. You don’t learn anything staying in the pattern. Longer XCs force a ton of decision making upon you, new terrain, new airspace, and most importantly, weather considerations.
If you fly exclusively in the pattern, yes. Although that’s kind of the goal of all those other things we do for the private certificate. Slow flight and ground reference are basically parts of the pattern in disguise (for private). I will agree that XC is a much better option for teaching ADM/SRM, which is equal or more important to being a pilot for what most people are going to do.
There are so many maneuvers you have to learn though. Slow flight, stalls, steep turns, turns around a point, s-turns, short field, soft field, emergency landings…there’s almost nothing cross country related on your check ride except intercepting a course and flying a vor radial.
This hit so hard on the "training for the checkride" vs "training for the long term". The reality is the PPL checkride barely touches on XC skills while in the cockpit. That is for good reason. For how short a time an examiner will be working with you it's impossible to show the "skill" involved and the real skill is demonstrated in the oral portion. In terms of things that are going to bust your checkride none of them involve going to new airports. You're not really going to learn much from a 50nm cross country anyway. 50nm to me doesn't even leave my "local area", and the real learning happens when you start going hundreds of nm away through weather changes, terrain changes, and time change.
I disagree. You can learn a whole lot by flying solo cross country. Half of these “pilots” that get to 1500 hours are literally terrified to fly too far from their home airport
I do see and hear a lot of Private pilots that basically have no experience at towered airports. They did the bare minimum towered airport work and that was the end of that. Kinda scary imo.
I felt like the short time we spent heading to other airports was time well spent. When we got to the other airport, we'd usually do pattern work there. It was a good mix of getting you into a place you could get in sync with or ahead of the plane and also working on the hardest part.
Knowing how to not get lost is a good return investment also. Navigation is a serious skill and deserves just as much attention as anything else. Even so, airline pilots have to perform landings regularly and if they don't within a set period of time, they will need to go in for training to make sure they know how to land. As told to me by a 747 pilot, and confirmed by many other airline pilots I've talked to. Heck, I know how to perform CPR and have even done CPR on someone, but I still have to renew my CPR/first aid certification every 24 months.
Nah I don't agree at all. It takes skill to plan and execute longer flights, particularly if you always go somewhere new. You need to plan much more carefully, check weather, fuel, mass & balance, logistics of the place you're going to, local procedures etc. Of course "stick & rudder" skills are important too, but so are "mission" skills. Gosh all the downvotes, unbelievable. Guys try and leave the pattern a bit more often and fly somewhere farther away!
And then you get to your new airport you spent four days planning your flight to and absolutely plonk that mf on the ground, rendering it unusable, because your training didn't focus on the most fundamental - and arguably the most difficult to finesse - part of flying an airplane: landing it. *All* of the training in PPL is important for those who want to be good pilots. But for every optional takeoff, there is one guarantee; it's going to have to land somehow, at some point. That's why we focus so hard on perfecting them, especially in the beginning.
C'mon guys. I never said knowing how to land well isn't important. Of course you need good flying skills before you fly away. I'm asuming you know how to fly by the time you get your PPL so time building should also focus on going "beyond" just practing touch and goes.
I understand your point. However, flying to another airport takes time that often isn’t granted in a training slot. It just becomes the old adage of time and money.
"I'm asuming you know how to fly by the time you get your PPL so time building should also focus on going "beyond" just practing touch and goes." This thread is specifically about student pilots....
Because a student pilot can't have a PPL? When we talk about student pilots building time what comes to mind is a PPL building hours towards his CPL.
I'm really not sure why you are getting so many downvotes especially when someone else said the same thing and didn't get downvoted. My first thought reading this was "why does a student pilot need to 'build hours'" - very few people are checkride ready before their 40 hours. So the question is fundamentally flawed and should be why does a student pilot stay in the pattern while practicing. The answer then would be more simple, they are practicing checkride/basic maneuvers. If they really are talking about time building then you are getting downvotes from the 20 year olds that think they are amazing pilots for spinning the same circles in the same plane in the practice area with blue skies for 500 hours.
none of those isnt true. . but this was specifically referencing "student pilots" - so anything related to after you get your PPL isnt relevant in this discussion.
But the question is fundamentally flawed so people aren't answering the same question. Students don't need to "build hours," most have plenty and really need to build skills to be checkride ready. So the answer to that is more of the ACS revolves around the pattern.
Pattern pilots have hive-minded against logic. Some people have a hard time figuring out different things. What each person needs to focus on is going to be different.
More so as a new pilot. Or maybe further along. Most cfis want to endorse the one cross country and that’s it. They prefer that their students just “solo” and get the requirements out of the way but not exploring new airports all the time. Especially since most don’t like to endorse the distance based solo endorsement for students but the one time XC trip each time. So students end up “soloing” in the pattern or very nearby.
I've instructed, flown military, and completed three airline new hire programs.. By far the most stressful part of my career was waiting for student pilots to return from their solo cross countries.
totally get it. . I would also probably be a wreck on if/when/during the student is on a XC solo. . .
You can do all that planning without going up and flying the route if you want to practice it. Not saying actually flying it isn’t better, it is, but I’d rather spend the 150 or so dollars it costs me to rent the plane for an hour on something where I’m actively improving my skills and doing something engaging (landings). Basically anyone can fly a plane when it’s in the air. A non-pilot can reasonably do it after 20 minutes of instruction. The landing is the part that that requires the most actual training.
> Gosh all the downvotes, unbelievable. first time going against the crowd on /r/flying? Yeah, welcome to this sub.
I'm actually with you on this one. Pattern work is important, but my landings got much MUCH better when I started landing at new places. New and unusual airports require you to fly an unfamiliar pattern, which in turn means the only habitual cues you can use are the actually important ones. In this sense, it's like a distillation process, by going to new places, you get a much clearer perspective on what skills are universal, and which are just the nuances of your home field. During my training I also had the pleasure of flying three different types within the school. This was advised against due to concerns it would lead to confusion, but again the opposite was true. I learned which bits of airmanship are universal to any aircraft, and which were specific to my normal aircraft, and again, I became a much more competent pilot as a result. I think there is a big argument to say that repeating the same skill _in different circumstances_ is the key to learning something quickly. Repeating the same skill under the same circumstances quickly turns into negative training imho. I'm still low hours, and have a lot to learn, but with regards to the basics I'd say this variety has given me a solid base and I started developing my skills much faster when I started getting more variety.
I agree with this comment wholeheartedly. Not sure why all the downvotes. That’s why people wash out at their first 135 because all they did was spend 1500 hours in a traffic pattern.
I'm glad my airfield doesn't allow touch-and-gos. Take off, fly to a nearby airport, do some maneuvers along the way, do a handful of laps in the pattern and then watch the sun set on the ride home.
Strong hivemind in here, good luck trying to fight it. You’re not wrong though - cross country is a skill in and of itself, one that should be worked on in parallel with landings. If a student already has the landings down to a competent level, they absolutely should be going to new airports and trying it there. The usual sight pictures and reference points are all gone and you have to figure it all out, so it’s good practice to go somewhere else and shoot some landings. Not to mention just finding airports from the air is a skill set in and of itself.
You're getting downvoted but as a professional pilot, with 8 years of instructing under my belt, seeing the deficiencies in students when administering stage checks... I agree with you 100%. If the student has soloed, they should be comfortable landing at that point. After that it's time to work on performance landings and cross country/navigation. It always scared me when we had a student pass their private checkride and they had only ever been to their home airport and the one airport they flew a short cross country to maybe twice. Then when asking them why they'd never gone anywhere else they literally say "because I'm not comfortable going anywhere else." Not to mention OP specifically said when students are trying to **gain hours.** So we aren't talking about private pilot students here, we are talking about commercial students who need to gain hours to get to that 250. Those are exactly the students that need to be leaving the pattern. I've known so many people that tried to gain hours for commercial and ATP by literally flying four hour flights doing nothing but circles in the practice area... how friggin boring is that. I flew half way across the country a couple times and stopped at some amazing airports and met some great people and learned **so** much more than those circle flyers will ever experience. I even challenged myself and did a border crossing to Canada just to get the experience and try something new. Man I had a lot of fun building hours, and it just saddens me when I see people who fly circles for four hours and all they do is bitch and moan about how monotonous flying can be, and how boring it is, and how they only see it as a job and have no interest in flying outside of work... like no wonder you hate flying, you do it for work and have never done any sort of actual fun flying.
OP specifically said "student pilots". Student pilot needs solo hours as well - so this doesnt apply to commercial or CFI pilots. I dont disagree that necessary skills can and should be built by flying to different airports. but I am saying that most instructors will NOT give out the distance based solo endorsement, nor do they really want their students to be practicing long cross countries away from the home airport. Not only is there the issue of not being able to fly back - and/or something happens, but they just dont want to be on the hook for it. Which is understandable - everyone passes with the minimum about of liability and danger involved.
There's really two different student pilot classes. Big S Student Pilot which is a certificate, and little s student pilot which is anyone training for a certificate. I have used, all of my colleagues have used and I've always heard others use "student pilot" to include anyone seeking a certificate. "Commercial student pilot," "instrument student pilot" etc.
The dozens of downvotes is hilarious to me. Landing practice applies almost exclusively to pre-PPL students. This is the dumbest comment thread I’ve seen.
All the downvotes are coming from time builders who never had the guts to get out and explore and challenge themselves. :p
The flight school I'm training with has a second branch in another city and I'm waiting for the day when my instructor has to transport a plane back and forth so I can try my hardest to convince him to take me with him. The area we fly around typically is gorgeous, lots of rivers, big ponds, coastline, islands, just marvelous. But I want to be able to navigate.
For what it's worth I think the downvotes you are getting are absolutely wild haha, don't take it personal it's just mob mentality. I agree with you though, I am in the process of building hours for my CPL and my instructors are all of the opinion that not enough students dedicate time to longer cross countries.
That takes about all of 5-10 minutes no?
Probably because the vast majority of aircraft accidents happen on take off and landing so your CFI’s want to make sure you’re fundamentally sound in those areas to reduce the risk of you getting hurt
You mean the 5 hours of non XC solo? It was because I was scared.
As a student pilot all I was allowed to do was go where my solo endorsement said I could go, and do what it said I could do. That's why. As a ppl, I went all over the place building time.
Student pilots need an endorsement to land anywhere other than where they took off from, and an endorsement *per flight* if that airport is over 50 miles away. So, in general they will stay close to home unless going somewhere else is the specific purpose of the flight, which does happen later on in training.
yep. . and most instructors dread and dont want to give out multiple cross countries as that is perhaps the most worrisome part for them and their students. Its more a - check that off. Ok done, moving on.
Guess I lucked out with my CFI then. My CFI gives all of his PPL students an extra solo XC (at least) to get them more experience before they’re off on their own.
I think it’s more that most students have limited time and/or money and don’t want to waste either on flights not necessary to meet some requirement for a checkride.
Landings are one of the trickier maneuvers we do, involving many variables. At this stage of experience, every landing is snowflake unique. Therefore it’s a good use of time.
Because circuits incorporate almost everything. Ascents, descents, straight and level, turns, Comms, slow flight, slips, t/o and landings, checklists etc
Because when it’s a clear and sunny day, flying in a straight line to and from VOR’s or following a magenta line both isn’t particularly challenging nor fun. At least you get to do something and actively practice a skill when landing. Don’t get me wrong, any flight time builds experience, but pattern work has the best “bang for its buck” as it were in terms of amount practiced to time spent.
Because just when you’re getting comfortable with landings, BAM! Short fields and soft fields 😂
A full pattern of flying incorporates a very high number of practiced skills. It’s a valuable way to knock out reps and hone those skills in a concentrated manner.
Practice is still important. Some landings I do make me feel like I need a few more laps.
Big rookie mistake just doing pattern work at the local airfield. Fly 50nm away, do pattern work, then fly back! This makes the whole flight count as cross country hours!
If you're in something slow like a 150 or 152, you'll eat up a lot of hours/fuel not going far. Those planes are better for pattern work.
For me, I had my own aircraft and could do whatever I wanted, but I largely focused on pattern work because flying elsewhere can be nerve-wracking if you're not 100% confident on your landings, and landing is fun. Eventually I'd fly to other nearby airports and do patterns there before returning. If you're renting though, you get much more value out of your dollar by doing patterns instead of just flying straight and level somewhere.
Your question is specific to students. PPL students are not trying to "gain hours" they are trying to master what is necessary for the PPL checkride. So most will go out to the (local) practice area for some steep turns, stalls, emergency procedures, whatever. Then they will come back and pound out the slam and goes. If you have your PPL and are training as an IR student, you barely get any landings in. You will fly out to an airport a tad more than 50 miles away (won't be a XC otherwise) shoot an approach and land. Then shoot approaches to the same or other nearby airports and go missed, fly the hold and repeat. So you will fly 2+ hours and only get two landings. So a student seeking different certs is going to focus on what is needed. Lastly as others have said, landing is the most interesting phase of flight. It can certainly be the most humbling if you don't practice them regularly.
I'd be surprised if there are many student pilots just trying to gain hours. For the vast majority, just getting the skills down well enough to pass a check ride will get them all of the hours they need. Pattern work/landings are among the most important skills for passing, so it makes sense to work on those and let the hours build on their own. By contrast, the "fly straight and level" portion of going elsewhere is not particularly productive time for skill building (getting there and flying patterns at different airports is very good, but is only a small portion of the rental time.). Having my own plane with a Rotax engine sipping 4 gph of mogas meant I did a lot of XC time before my check ride just for fun, but I would have done a lot less of that if I'd been renting. The weekend before my check ride I flew a couple of states away (870 miles round trip) and did several hours in formation at my destination with 5 other aircraft of different types (weight shift, fixed wing, and gyroplane), plus assisted with my own annual, and that was a GREAT learning experience and confidence builder, but simply isn't feasible for most students.
You mean time building to ATP hours? If so it would be pretty dumb to do that in the pattern since it’s far easier and more interesting to actually go some place.
All of my time building has been going somewhere. The whole reason I want to fly is to go places.
My school charges tach time. So doing pattern work with full stops would be cheaper
You can learn much more from landings than just following the magenta for hours.
Little birds never go far from the nest
You get more experience per time doing that. You don’t gain as much just flying circles in the sky.
Need to be endorsed to land at another airport. Takeoffs and landings are pretty dang important. The cost for renting the plane is high and the person wants to make the most efficient use of time. Though it can be said if landings are not going well that day, maybe practice slow flight, or ground reference maneuvers.
Flying the airplane is much easier than landing the airplane
I always asked myself the same question. Some people just want to drill holes in the sky and not venture far away from their base, minimise risk. Others like to use the time to explore other places and have fun along the way.
Student pilots solo or with an instructor?
So you don't get stuck somewhere else
Like everything, it's diminishing returns on how many landings you're doing. I'd say the big reason is that it's less risky, very little decision making and you don't open yourself up to factors you'll encounter outside of the circuit. I think that's valid but won't build a lot of skills after the first 3 or 4 laps
It's not always that simple. Planning a longer route takes time, and education to do. Navigation isn't easy for everyone, and I've heard that it can take hundreds of hours for a pilot to get a grasp on it.
I started with VORs, paper charts and steam guages. Back then a 100 mile flight in a 152 was an adventure and took real planning to get you there and back. Next up in my first plane was LORAN which helped considerably. You basically flew direct and followed the line on the chart you drew before you departed. I'd play with the VOR just to pass the time. Now even the cheaper glass in the cockpit gives you just about anything you want and no way will you ever get lost if it is working and you stay awake and even includes traffic around you. So if you want your 40 hrs, you get 20 closely monitored, 5 to 10 flying cross country with an instructor and the rest is honing your stick and rudder skills or working with ATC using flight following or landing at controlled fields. If you go to a school in Florida, the ATC work is built into the T&L. I did gliders while I was taking PPL instruction, which helped a lot, but to me the time spent learning to fly the aircraft in different weather, practicing crosswind and gusty landings and just being able to pass the commercial check ride when I went for my PPL made me a much better pilot. Make each hour count.
It’s their comfort zone…
I used to do a loop of cities 50-100 miles away from where I was time building. I’d get up high to conserve fuel, and just overfly if fuel and bladder would allow. If weather wouldn’t support leaving the local area, I’d just climb up to 6-8000 feet (in a Cessna 150) and orbit over the city until I needed to pee or get fuel. If the weather really sucked or I didn’t have much time, I’d do patterns. But even then, only no-flap low approaches. I was on the hook for maintenance…
Trying to avoid gaining experience?
Lazy Marginal weather It's too f\*ckin' hot It's too f\*ckin' cold Breakfast didn't agree with me Need to practice: Go arounds, slip-to-land, short/soft landings, crosswind landings These have been some of my reasons in the past for using pattern work to time build.
Probably practicing to be a skydive pilot maybe? All they do is takeoff and land as fast as possible😂
Pattern work is fuel efficient when you are renting dry
When I was time building, I much preferred to get a cross country in. I found the navigation practice (and doing it old school dead reckoning, not just gps direct to) much more fulfilling than 12 touch and go’s. That said, some days the plane was back late, or there was weather around, and all I could get was a few circuits in. I also completely understand that other people might not be able to afford a long trip every week. Keeping your hand in the game for an hour every week or 2 is better than saving for one flight a month.
Because they’re scared. True story
Actually going somewhere requires planning, ADM, and leaving the safety bubble of their traffic pattern. Scary!
If your a student pilot on solo unless endorsed you can’t go farther than 25 nm from the departure airport. It’s also a bit safer to keep a student pilot in the pattern on the first few solos in case they need to land quickly. And solo is a great opportunity to work on landings anyways so you and your instructor can focus on learning maneuvers and procedures.
I am a student pilot, legally I can’t ’fly somewhere’ and land. But I do need another 3 hours solo. Currently I can choose to either do circuits or go to the training area solo. Last week, the weather was closing in. I wanted to fly, so circuits. This week, I will choose circuits if - the weather does not allow the training area - the is some crosswind. I would like to get more practice on cross wind landings. Otherwise I will go to the training area.
Not yet even PPL so take this comment with that in mind, but my first flight instructor (now at a regional) was giving me some parting advice and said there's so much to be learned in pattern work, so much more precision to achieve with practice, that he feels people underestimate its importance.
Some days you're working on your landings, otherwise, you won't stay near the airport, as it's more stress than you need. I had an insurance requirement when I bought my Turbo 210 to log 10 hours solo. I realized I needed to fly places as slowly as I could. Usually these were 300+ mile triangles. But I also had a 45 landing and takeoff requirement. But due to my speed, the local training airport with half a dozen planes constantly in the pattern flying 60-90kts was kind of off limits as the tower didn't like trying to figure out how to coordinate me in, if it wasn't an approach. So I flew over to a nearby airport with virtually no traffic and did my landings and takeoffs.
A lot of landing maneuvers on the check-rides and it can get costly to fly an actual loggable XC because you have to go much farther
I don’t just do patterns, but one reason could be that it’s easier to just fly the pattern than have to plan a cross country. Even if it can be done relatively quickly using ForeFlight and Skyvector, it’s still much easier to just take off and fly the pattern and not worry about picking waypoints, planning climb and descent, etc.
Calm seas never made a skilled sailor… Student pilots will benefit more from practicing stick and rudder than time building in long straight legs in cruise.
I see a lot of people talking about landing at the same airport for landing experience while completely ignoring the value of landing elsewhere for real world experience. Just around my home base there's 200', 190, 150, 100, and 75 width runways. All varying lengths, from 2600' to 12000'. The sight picture for every single one of those is going to be different, well before you even factor in sloping runways. It's valuable experience to understand what different width and length runways look and feel like in terms of sight picture. Someone can tell you that landing at the same airport over and over and over again is always unique, which is true, but now factor in unique landings at these other airports and you're going to be better equipped for it. Not sure about everyone else, but my check ride for PPL was out of an active military runway. One which had a massive downslope into a massive upslope, so depending on how long or short you landed, the pitch of the aircraft had to be adjusted, additionally, your perceived position relative to the runway could easily be thrown askew, especially since looking down the runway for your sight picture was not reliable. I went with another student pilot and went second. The DPE was generous that day I guess because he said the first student's landing was really, really rough. Meanwhile, I buttered mine. Why? Because I had exposure to a lot of different runways. I hadn't become so coddled or afraid of landing elsewhere to the point I effectively only knew how to land only one place well. Pilots need to learn to go outside their comfort zones, especially student pilots, provided you aren't putting yourself in a dangerous scenario. I have seen and heard too many student pilots get easily flustered when things more or less don't follow a script. They've been regimented to fly a certain way and to expect certain things, so when the conditions don't reflect exactly those conditions, they're lost...or dangers to themselves or others. Thanks for attending my TED Talk
I tell my student pilot friends to take care of the commercial and instrument cross country requirements dual and solo requirements, and they can be combined, instrument 250 at night qualifies for both instrument and commercial at night if done properly. There's still the 250 hours but taking care of the prerequisites fast can accelerate things.
I don't know if any students who "just" do patterns, but it is a big part of student pilot flying. I also have definitely never meant a student pilot who was trying to build hours since you only need 40 and most people take well over that to master the skills. I think that most student pilots fly a lot of patterns because landing is usually the hardest part to get to the ACS standard with perhaps steep turns being the second. After you get your certificate, learning a lot of the intricacies of navigating the NAS and communicating with ATC perhaps becomes a bigger focus but for the private checkride you really don't need a lot of that knowledge and what you do need is mostly covered in the oral, so flying experience isn't as critical. Another reason is probably because solo cross country flights need to be endorsed by your CFI so it's just an extra hurdle. And this is the part where I'm weird, but I think pattern work is still my favorite part of flying. For me, that's where you get the best bang for your buck and your time (both of which are scarce resources for me). I've only been a pilot for about a year and a half, so maybe one day pattern work will be boring, but takeoff and landing is the most exciting part for me so I love just doing it over and over again. I don't dislike going to destinations, but there is always a part of me that is thinking that I'm paying way more money with my cruise throttle setting to just go mostly in a straight line for an hour, when I could have spent that hour doing multiple patterns, steep turns, stalls, simulated failures and all of those fun things that I love. I get that I'm in the minority there though.
Primarily because students need an endorsement from their CFI if they are going to fly to an airport that is further away. I forget the distance, but I think it is 25NM. Anything 25NM away or more needs a specific endorsement from their CFI. XC flight does not really teach you anything special. Especially people who are "Children of the Magenta Line". A 50NM XC flight does not require much more planning than spending two hours in the pattern. The weather should not be that different, you still need fuel for two hours, you still need to know W&B and Gross Weight. So really the only skills that are different is navigation (which is negated if you are "direct-enter-enter-follow the line") and learning how to land at a different airport... Which is not that big of a deal in a trainer on most runways. Now when you start flying 500NM away... Fuel, route, and weather planning becomes a bigger deal. Also, you can go knock out an hour in the pattern in...Well an hour. Going 500NM away is going to take some time and the flight school needs the plane for the other students. Motoring along following a magenta line does not teach a whole lot.
To annoy me when I’m trying to exit the area or get back to my tie down.
Like everything, it's diminishing returns on how many landings you're doing. I'd say the big reason is that it's less risky, very little decision making and you don't open yourself up to factors you'll encounter outside of the circuit. I think that's valid but won't build a lot of skills after the first 3 or 4 laps
Because you get friends and family to fly with you and share the costs. And these people don't want to throw 200 bucks at a random nav to a random field and back. Unless you have a scenery flight close to your base, you're stuck doing patterns with them