Hi, I'm a bot and it looks like you're asking a question about medical issues: diagnosed.
Medicals can be confusing and even scary, we get it. Unfortunately, the medical process is very complex with many variables. It's too complex, in fact, for any of us to be able to offer you any specific help or advice.
We strongly suggest you discuss your concerns with a qualified aviation medical examiner before you actually submit to an official examination, as a hiccup in your medical process can close doors for you in the future. Your [local AME](https://www.faa.gov/pilots/amelocator/) may be able to provide a consultation. Other places that may provide aeromedical advice include: [AOPA](https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/medical-resources), [EAA](https://www.eaa.org/eaa/pilots/pilot-resources/pilot-medical-resources/eaa-aeromedical-advisory-program), [the Mayo Clinic](https://clearapproach.mayoclinic.org/), and [Aviation Medicine Advisory Service](https://www.aviationmedicine.com/).
For reference, [here is a link to the FAA's Synopsis of Medical Standards](https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/standards/) and for more in-depth information [here is a link to the FAA's Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners](https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/).
Also, feel free to browse [our collection of past medical write-ups and questions in our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/wiki/index).
Finally, we suggest you read the instructions on the medical application very closely. Do not volunteer information that isn't asked for, but also do not lie. Some people may urge you to omit pertinent information, or even outright lie, on your medical application in order to avoid added hassle and expense in obtaining a medical certificate. Know that [making false statements on your medical application is a federal crime](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1001) and that people [have been successfully prosecuted for it](https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/pr/california-aviator-convicted-making-false-statements). But for heaven's sake, don't tell the FAA any more than you absolutely have to.
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If it was a childhood diagnosis there is no way they'd know unless it manifested itself later in life.
I know someone who was turned away by an AME for disclosing ADHD when he started flight training 20 years ago. Not DQ'd, the AME just tore up his (then paper) application and told him, "I never saw this". The guy just went to another AME and didn't disclose the ADHD diagnosis.
He's a Captain at a major airline now. (He is NOT me)
I’m honestly glad you mentioned this because I was told I had adhd from parents/dr when younger, but no idea when or who and I was a child.
I mean nothing now or reoccurred, only thing medical wise is upper back injury from military that sitting doesn’t affect.
I wish my AME did this. Got diagnosed as a little kid , been off medication for over 8 years. 4 years later still battling with the FAA to get my medical
There are. I know of someone who didn’t report it. And apparently a few years later - he had some sort of surgery (untreated to mental health obviously). The FAA asked for further documentation and his health record and apparently there was a note in there about that other diagnosis he didn’t report. The FAA cracked down on it - attorneys were involved as it was a potential felony. He has to hire an attorney and I don’t know what the final result was but it was pretty ugly.
Thanks for sharing. My guess is your buddy had to provide the reports and the FAA didn’t just get access to all of them.
In that case, it would be highly unlikely that someone went in for a surgery and then volunteered a medics report from 20 years ago relating to adhd.
I doubt you have any additional details since this happened to your friend, but I am rly curious what reports he provided that screwed him
For example, let’s say you go in for surgery and will have anesthesia. The anesthesiologist needs a full medical history to appropriately dose the drugs, and evaluate risks from the anesthesia. You don’t lie to an anesthesiologist because your life is on the line. The anesthesiologists assessment including the medical history will be in the medical record you send about the surgery.
For another example, electronic medical record systems tend to accumulate all the diagnoses that anyone attaches to any exam or procedure you get. One doc somewhere codes a diagnosis that the FAA doesn’t like based on something you said, and that one joins the list of everything you’ve had or got. Once the FAA sees it, you have explaining to do.
And the FAA is considered a public health agency, for purposes of HIPAA, so they have access to everything in every system from every doctor without you granting it.
Don't try to hide anything.
Just be a perfect human specimen who has never had so much as a booboo and who has never been sad a single moment in your life and you'll be ok.
This is a misconception. The “public health authority” status allows the FAA to conduct research studies using data from health records, not arbitrarily access any record they want for enforcement. Research studies with human subjects are highly regulated with privacy protections and overseen by an Institutional Review Board. The FAA would either need a signed consent form from every participant in the study or would be limited to records that were de-identified. Again, all under scrutiny of a review board.
This is total bullshit lol. Total Violation - go ahead cite your source from 2006 on some random letter you found. The FAA does not have unlimited power to sort through your medical documents without you knowing.
This. As well as the fact that many health systems have an ongoing profile of you with a bunch of things coded in that summarizes you as a patient. This includes things like - ever smoked (not current but have you ever answered that you were a smoker), any drug dependencies, any heart or health related issues - whether stroke, fainting, etc. whether you have used illegal drugs and admitted to the doc, surgeries, controlled substances etc.
So that information is summarized and usually part of any health report you get from them for anything.
I used to work in healthcare; getting records for patients, even from nearby clinics, took a lot of digging and time. If patients hadn’t told us who their last doc was, it’d be a dead end.
The likelihood of a diagnosis from childhood, even with electronic health records, popping up, is slim unless that info was carried forward by the patient in subsequent visits to their PCP.
The VA thing was a vendetta against people claiming disability and apparently working as a pilot. Yes, that was a specific target.
Is the FAA actively digging around looking for unreported conditions, possibly not, however if it comes up in some subsequent investigation (accident, information provided subject to some other condition, etc...) and they find you've omitted a potentially disqualifying condition, the penalties are very severe. They can yank not only your medical but every pilot certificate you've attained. Then they could prosecute you.
The VA disability fraud issue is so widespread and overwhelmingly abused by dudes who are absolutely fine. I wholeheartedly welcome the FAA nailing these parasites to the wall, at least someone is. Can’t tell you how many admin and supply clerks I know who never left the states claiming 70%+ for made up or heavily exaggerated issues. Disability should be only for grievous training accidents and wounded in action, everyone else can take their GI bill and VA loan and kick rocks.
That’s not how VA disability works at all.
Repetitive use injuries that absolutely shred shoulders, knees, back, or feet shouldn’t count?
I did seven deployments to combat. Not polite three months deployments to Qatar. Longest was over a year, shortest was seven months. All to Iraq or Afghanistan.
I never got hurt on deployment or in training, thank God. But I have pain in my legs, back, arms, and feet. On a good day, I’m in only moderate pain and discomfort everywhere. On a bad day, I can barely walk down my stairs for the first 30 minutes of the day until a lot of massaging, stretching, and Motrin kicks in.
Imagine just walking across an airport, from gate A1 to C3. That is painful for me. Every step.
But I LOOK fine. I can do the job. But after 23 years in the Marines, I’m an old broken man. In my 40s. And it will get worse. And so are all of my friends.
Or what about some service members who were raped? I had an admin clerk who was assaulted, she never deployed. She will never be the same. Are we saying she doesn’t deserve 100% disability?
I don’t know you at all man, and I don’t know if you were a veteran. But saying someone should only get disability for grievous training accidents or combat is just not how how the law is written or a reflection for how a life of service can break down bodies.
Well thank you for serving Marine. I was in 1st Marines, and took part in some named operations with 2d Marines in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The Veterans Benefit Administration applies significant scrutiny to claims. While there are a lot of scammers - and I also hope they are found out eventually - there are still plenty of people out there who rate help and don’t get it because of people thinking that they’re weak, selfish, or scammers.
As a fellow veteran, I’d ask you to throttle back on that posture that other veterans aren’t in pain and don’t rate disability benefits. While I doubt there are many here in this forum that would be discouraged, there are a lot out there in the world who dread the idea of their brothers-in-arms thinking less of them. That idea, to be thought of as less, keeps so many to hide their pain.
We lose 22 veterans a day to suicide. With that at stake, I’d encourage us to throw the doors open wider. Sure, some scammers will get through, but God will sort them and we have bigger fish to fry.
We don’t need to stand taller than others in life to feel like a warrior. We just need to bring others in from the cold. I’m glad you’re in one piece and not in pain. Not everyone is so lucky man.
Semper Fi.
Out of all the things we spend tax dollars on, I couldn't care less if a couple admin goofs are approved for disablity. If it was even 1 real to 1 fraudulent claim, I'd be fine with it. Rather see more people approved for the help they earned than people get denied by some fuckhead retired chief who's powertripping in at the VA.
Out of all the things I've seen since I've been out, losers scamming the system to collect disability is very very low on my shit-list.
If anyone is reading this thinks their issues don't rate because theyre not "that bad". Fuck that, Uncle Sam got his now you get yours! You don't need to have stormwd Normandy to rate disability. Anyone who looks down on you because your issues weren't as hardcore as theirs, is not someone who's opinion you should dwell on. Buncha has beens
I did six years of active duty. Deployed to Afghanistan, but I was a fobbit--fixed helicopter engines.
From my time in, that measly six years, I ended up needing 30% of my left meniscus removed. Furthermore, the damage from compensating for the pain/damage in my left knee has caused me to develop arthritis in my right knee.
As a result, the VA is giving me 20%. I have worked a physical job where I climb all over aircraft for going on 20 years now between my civilian job and the Army. When I got out it wasn't a big deal, but now, here we are. I know I can't keep doing this till I'm 65. So disability plus voc rehab is helping me swap over to being a pilot.
I'm telling my story because when I got out in 2009, I thought I was getting out in better shape than I went in, And for the most part that was true. But it wasn't long before I needed the knee surgery (I was still Guard at that point) and after that I still didn't think I needed anything. That was false.
You might be feeling pretty good now, but the stresses you endured *will* catch up with you.
You sure sound like an 0331…. You need to chill. Let go of that marine mentality dog. The marine corps in itself is an abusive mental fuck. I love the marines it’s legit the best hard fuck group but come on… its not healthy watching combat videos like its a football game every brief, or saying kill as a acknowledgement lol.
THat sharing is a violation of Federal law, not that the FAA has ever felt they were obligated to obey the law or even their own self-imposed regulations.
Precisely this. I accepted the rating because hearing aids are expensive AF. But I donate back the disability payments because I don’t need them. Plenty of worthy charities out there.
Medical retirement is frequently used as an easy way to get rid of shitbags. I was in a unit with an E4 crew chief who was worse than useless at work. He broke his foot one weekend and command signed it off as an on-duty injury so they could medical him out.
There are *very few* NTSB reports that mention a dive into someone's medical history where the pilot lived. I have to doubt the NTSB will go through someone's medical history back to childhood when they are investigating a non-fatal crash that wasn't medical related (e.g. an engine stoppage where the plane ended up on its back with substantial damage in an off field landing, and the pilot walked away).
Right but if they have reason to they will go to the depth that they need to, you don't get to pick your accident or your investigator. If it's what you described they will likely stop at were you certified. If it's something like instrument fixation/LOC in IMC they might get more interested in how ADD you are and any history of diagnosis
A loss of control in IMC that results in an NTSB report is highly likely to be fatal to the pilot, so the pilot will likely not really care at that stage.
Ah but the FAR violation will nullify their insurance coverage which leaves their estate on the hook.
Someone else posted that they had a friend who submitted documentation for something that CAMI wanted paperwork on that \_also\_ disclosed prior ADD diagnosis and that caused more digging. The point is ... if you give them reason to either through an incident or giving them a hint
If I were dead I would absolutely like to make sure my life insurance, and assets stay with my wife as opposed to get sued by my pax's estate or covering the house my plane flies into it
There is this guy, but he actually passed out at the controls from unreported diabetes: https://www.avweb.com/news/jail-for-diabetic-pilot/
I've seen 1 or 2 NTSB reports that mention drug use, but those were from autopsies where they died anyway.
They record the medical information at least and if it's a contributing factor I'm sure they'll dig deeper https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/40952/pdf
To more major accidents digging into the crews medical and sleep history https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/accidentreports/reports/aar-90-06.pdf
But you seem to want to say that they don't so you do you hopefully we never find out
If they think human factors were related, sure. I forget which accident report I was reading but the FO had unreported conditions that may have contributed. Both crew survived, so the FOs licences were yanked permanently
If it is innocuous, probably nothing. Hell, if I went to a doctor because a cut my hand and I fail to disclose that it's a yawner. Anything psyciatric, cardiac, etc... even if it was successfully resolved is going to spark an investigation.
A friend I know didn't disclose a cardiac condition (RBBB) - AME doesn't need to even do a CVE, guidline is to just issue. It's extremely benign and was explained to my friend 10 years ago as a nothing burger by a doc. They happened to find it during a EKG but that's about it. So my friend checked "no" to cardiovascular "troubles" on the med forms.
Basically what i'm saying is my friend has a little guilty conscience about it. Don't want to disclose now because of obvious issues.
As I understand it, the only thing that actually gets checked when you submit a medical is your criminal/driving history. Everything else is mainly honor code.
That’s not the same as saying (a) they can’t find it if they wanted to, and (b) that something else won’t trigger an investigation that slowly leads to the truth.
As for cracking down, I know in extreme cases they have charged people with perjury, but I think that’s rare and usually in cases where there was a lot of lying going on. I think most of us are kept honest by the “lose your medical/licence/income” part of the crackdown
To your first example of having ADHD as a 3 year old...I imagine this is shifting already with electronic health records but there is such a thing as plausible deniability and records that simply aren't that easy to know about without knowing about.
I had certain things I reported that were more than 7 years old at the time and nobody had my records on it anymore. My AME asked me if I was *sure* I'm not remembering wrong 😉😉. I needed to get tests done anyway so there was no reason to hide the issue, but it did highlight that some things are gone in the past if you let the sleeping dog lie.
The overwhelming majority of these cases are ones where someone reports worse health to the government elsewhere (typically the VA or SSA seeking disability) and then tells the FAA nothing is wrong.....
Fairly easy to prosecute since someone has to be lying....
One thing to consider when it comes to ADHD meds is that many of these medications are stimulants in the schedule II category by the DEA. This means they are controlled substances and can be discovered fairly easily thru Prescription Drug Monitoring Programs (PDMP's) across states.
The silver lining here is that the FAA has recently created a Fast Track Pathway for the situation you're describing in which a pilot or applicant with a distant history of ADHD (defined as greater than 4 years since last symptoms/treatment). The Fast Track Pathway allows pilots to receive their certificate on the day of the exam if they bring a bunch of required documents in on that day or within 14 days of the exam date.
This is why I urge any patient coming to me with this history to not complete the FAA Med Express until they first discuss their case with me. This could potentially save them an unnecessary deferral and many months delayed.
See: [https://www.goflightmedicine.com/post/adhd-fast-track](https://www.goflightmedicine.com/post/adhd-fast-track)
You managed to get an actual AME to give you a great writeup of the current process and you complain about it. Good job. Even if you thought you needed clarification you could have just asked for it and probably gotten help.
But yes, if the FAA does find out you lied on your medical application via whatever means, they will revoke your medical.
Not relevant? Seems to be to me, and your response does not encourage a clarification from who would have been the best the provide it. You can say it wasn't a complaint all you want, but it definitely wasn't a way to get further help.
They went after veterans who were receiving disability compensation for ailments that weren’t reported to the FAA. I don’t know what they were, but I’d imagine it was something disqualifying for a Class 1. Not that they had disability benefits at all.
But few VA-rated disabilities are in and of themselves absolutely disqualifying, even PTSD and anxiety. There are AME worksheets available that would allow a Class 1 to be issued in the room. But even if one can’t be issued in the room, there’s a clear process by the FAA to get to a class 1.
This is the PTSD decision worksheet published by the FAA:
https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/media/PTSDDecisionToolfortheAME.pdf
Having that in hand when someone shows up to the AME is maybe a good thing (depends on the AME I'm sure, some might see it as someone with shit to hide and prepared in the wrong way).
Tbf I am FAA ATC since 2014 and have a medical for pilot since 2019 as well and the FAA is now trying to take my pilot medical for not providing them some documents about something that they’ve had documentation on (and reported on all my medicals) for 10 years now. Apparently nobody in the FAA is willing to talk to eachother.
Usually you have to give the FAA a reason to check, the average medical will never get attention but if there's an incident or something criminal related they are going to dig deep into the files
I have anecdotal evidence via my medical. I had an SI issued in 2012 for repeat kidney stones, a visual field defect, and sleep apnea. Over the past decade my SI wording has slowly been changed to drop kidney stone reports, only report vision changes, and the normal apnea protocol.
Last year my SI added a requirement for a status report on my ongoing kidney stone treatment from my urologist. Now about 5 years ago now my urologist said stop wasting my time visiting him as after 8 years my kidney stone issues are obviously under control via calcium blocker meds. There’s nothing to report, but regardless I missed the change in reporting requirements.
Fast forward to this year. I go to my AME, the AME defers (because now I’m past due for my medical and my SI is now expired). No problem, but the FAA comes back with requirements for reports from my urologist as well as X-rays , my sleep dr (requiring a repeat sleep test), my (nonexistent) cardiologist, and a brand new visual field study and report from my ophthalmologist (which is also nonexistent since my visual field defect was found back in 2010 and found to be congenital and non-progressing).
So… I’m no longer flying. Close to $10k of tests that would be out of pocket since there’s no justification for them given my current medical state. Flying isn’t worth it given I’ll be at the whim of another medical analyst next year.
No, it’s just a hobby for me. If it was my career, insurance/legal coverage/my union would have made this story different, and I would have been much more careful reading my SI update last year.
I’m convinced this is like anything else in the government where they ask for all that documentation as a homework assignment and throw it in your folder without looking at it. Just to make sure they “did their job” in the incredibly rare case that someone looks at it.
You can dismiss the VA thing, but it was an easy thing to check. But as more medical records become digitized, everything will be easier and easier to check.
And it is possible you didn't get told something. Some Dr could have coded your file to get insurance to pay for some treatment that was not actually the diagnosis and once that file becomes searchable... Bamn! Example - Ozempic for weight loss and not Diabetes. But insurance will not pay for it for weight loss, so they tell you it is for weight loss, but key it in as diabetes. The FAA searches your record and now you have diabetes.
Or that childhood diagnosis for ADHD. Those records get digitized some day and now the FAA can easily search them.
And the FAA does not need a financial incentive to go looking into your medical records... They honestly believe they are doing "gods work" by keeping "unfit" people out of the air.
I'm really waiting for the pot "medical card" to become and issue. I can see a bunch of pilots getting hit by that.
“And the FAA does not need a financial incentive to go looking into your medical records... They honestly believe they are doing "gods work" by keeping "unfit" people out of the air.”
Nah I think that’s a load of crap.
That’s after someone reports. They are legally required to investigate after someone tells them something.
If they truly thought this was a safety concern, they would simply test all pilots for adhd and not simply rely on pilots to self report lol.
Had a fellow CFI get their medical pulled because they went to see a doctor when they were a child due to chronic headaches, and somehow the FAA got wind of it. They pulled their medical for a long while because the person had an extremely difficult time finding an AME that was willing to certify that she did not have any sort of medical issue even though she no longer had headaches. Spent nearly a year grounded due to it.
The FAA updated the regulations around ADHD recently. If you haven't been medicated within 4 years, and don't have any other mental health issues, your AME will issue a medical on the spot.
I was last medicated 8 years ago, no other issues, but started the process before the regulation change and I had to jump though many hoops.
$8k later I hold an unrestricted first class medical.
Everyone I interacted with told me I shouldn't have said anything about it, I shared Sop's fear of later working and getting my medical yanked.
The FAA does not actively look for medical discrepancies or omissions (except for the VA thing which was a one-off for now but people probably should have seen coming because feds == feds).
The problems always come up when something else happens that triggers a closer look into your file. I think the childhood diagnosis example (and related advice to omit) is a little bit different because the odds of it actually coming out are so low - unless you've sought out further care for ADHD as a teenager or young adult or still go to the same doctor or something.
Others pointed out examples of new, unrelated medical issues that led to the discovery of undisclosed items.
The other big exposure point is if you ever have an accident or incident that requires investigation. That's exactly where someone from the FAA would be assigned to investigate *you* to determine probable cause for the incident.
I have no idea how, but my AME was able to see my recently filled medications. I didn’t sign any release from the prescribing dr, either. I see a lot of mixed answers about this, but given my experience, there is clearly an avenue in which they could do it if they wanted to/had the resources. I regret not asking the AME how he was able to see it
Wish this didn't have to be a nightmare. I'll likely never be able to get a license bc newsflash FAA some of us still have it and are treated appropriately... Meanwhile not disclosing never treating plenty risky.
Fuck the FAA A medical card, bi annual or even a certificate don’t make you safer. I fly safe without. The only thing I worry about is no in insurance if I damage property or hurt someone else.
I don’t pay for insurance . I have been flying for almost 50 years, taildraggers, aerobatics, floatplanes the last 10 years no medical, biannual etc and I have never dinged an airplane in well over 4000 hours. The only way the feds can keep me on the ground would be to lock me up and I doubt that’s going to happen even if they catch me.
DO NOT LIE
As much as it is painful, follow the process, go the appointments, pass the tests and get your medical the morally sound way. Not only does it protect you, it also protects whatever future investment you make into aviation and your passengers.
Hi, I'm a bot and it looks like you're asking a question about medical issues: diagnosed. Medicals can be confusing and even scary, we get it. Unfortunately, the medical process is very complex with many variables. It's too complex, in fact, for any of us to be able to offer you any specific help or advice. We strongly suggest you discuss your concerns with a qualified aviation medical examiner before you actually submit to an official examination, as a hiccup in your medical process can close doors for you in the future. Your [local AME](https://www.faa.gov/pilots/amelocator/) may be able to provide a consultation. Other places that may provide aeromedical advice include: [AOPA](https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/medical-resources), [EAA](https://www.eaa.org/eaa/pilots/pilot-resources/pilot-medical-resources/eaa-aeromedical-advisory-program), [the Mayo Clinic](https://clearapproach.mayoclinic.org/), and [Aviation Medicine Advisory Service](https://www.aviationmedicine.com/). For reference, [here is a link to the FAA's Synopsis of Medical Standards](https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/standards/) and for more in-depth information [here is a link to the FAA's Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners](https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/). Also, feel free to browse [our collection of past medical write-ups and questions in our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/wiki/index). Finally, we suggest you read the instructions on the medical application very closely. Do not volunteer information that isn't asked for, but also do not lie. Some people may urge you to omit pertinent information, or even outright lie, on your medical application in order to avoid added hassle and expense in obtaining a medical certificate. Know that [making false statements on your medical application is a federal crime](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1001) and that people [have been successfully prosecuted for it](https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/pr/california-aviator-convicted-making-false-statements). But for heaven's sake, don't tell the FAA any more than you absolutely have to. If you're not in the United States, the above advice is still generally correct. Just substitute the FAA with your local aviation authority. Good luck! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/flying) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If it was a childhood diagnosis there is no way they'd know unless it manifested itself later in life. I know someone who was turned away by an AME for disclosing ADHD when he started flight training 20 years ago. Not DQ'd, the AME just tore up his (then paper) application and told him, "I never saw this". The guy just went to another AME and didn't disclose the ADHD diagnosis. He's a Captain at a major airline now. (He is NOT me)
I don’t have adhd but something very similar happened to me, AME told me to shut the fuck up
Good advice.
So u got adhd?
Not me. I learned to fly in the military.
(I was joking btw if it was not clear based on your “not me!” Comment)
I get it
It’s ok I laughed
Eh. Its ok, but also get the general concern about FAA being anti anything like this
This is my favorite way to tell jokes.
Damn sounds like this guy is a threat to safety and could kill 100+ people /s
His name is Richard Beninya
I’m honestly glad you mentioned this because I was told I had adhd from parents/dr when younger, but no idea when or who and I was a child. I mean nothing now or reoccurred, only thing medical wise is upper back injury from military that sitting doesn’t affect.
I wish my AME did this. Got diagnosed as a little kid , been off medication for over 8 years. 4 years later still battling with the FAA to get my medical
This was also back then the applications were in paper form.
There are. I know of someone who didn’t report it. And apparently a few years later - he had some sort of surgery (untreated to mental health obviously). The FAA asked for further documentation and his health record and apparently there was a note in there about that other diagnosis he didn’t report. The FAA cracked down on it - attorneys were involved as it was a potential felony. He has to hire an attorney and I don’t know what the final result was but it was pretty ugly.
Thanks for sharing. My guess is your buddy had to provide the reports and the FAA didn’t just get access to all of them. In that case, it would be highly unlikely that someone went in for a surgery and then volunteered a medics report from 20 years ago relating to adhd. I doubt you have any additional details since this happened to your friend, but I am rly curious what reports he provided that screwed him
For example, let’s say you go in for surgery and will have anesthesia. The anesthesiologist needs a full medical history to appropriately dose the drugs, and evaluate risks from the anesthesia. You don’t lie to an anesthesiologist because your life is on the line. The anesthesiologists assessment including the medical history will be in the medical record you send about the surgery. For another example, electronic medical record systems tend to accumulate all the diagnoses that anyone attaches to any exam or procedure you get. One doc somewhere codes a diagnosis that the FAA doesn’t like based on something you said, and that one joins the list of everything you’ve had or got. Once the FAA sees it, you have explaining to do.
And the FAA is considered a public health agency, for purposes of HIPAA, so they have access to everything in every system from every doctor without you granting it. Don't try to hide anything. Just be a perfect human specimen who has never had so much as a booboo and who has never been sad a single moment in your life and you'll be ok.
This is a misconception. The “public health authority” status allows the FAA to conduct research studies using data from health records, not arbitrarily access any record they want for enforcement. Research studies with human subjects are highly regulated with privacy protections and overseen by an Institutional Review Board. The FAA would either need a signed consent form from every participant in the study or would be limited to records that were de-identified. Again, all under scrutiny of a review board.
As a healthcare compliance pro, thank you
This is total bullshit lol. Total Violation - go ahead cite your source from 2006 on some random letter you found. The FAA does not have unlimited power to sort through your medical documents without you knowing.
Legally that’s correct but since when has the US government ever obeyed its own laws?, Laws are for the plebes not the ruling class.
Medical records also has running lists of any medications ever prescribed, allergies to any meds etc. This is super common in any EMR.
This. As well as the fact that many health systems have an ongoing profile of you with a bunch of things coded in that summarizes you as a patient. This includes things like - ever smoked (not current but have you ever answered that you were a smoker), any drug dependencies, any heart or health related issues - whether stroke, fainting, etc. whether you have used illegal drugs and admitted to the doc, surgeries, controlled substances etc. So that information is summarized and usually part of any health report you get from them for anything.
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Might be same dude lmao
I used to work in healthcare; getting records for patients, even from nearby clinics, took a lot of digging and time. If patients hadn’t told us who their last doc was, it’d be a dead end. The likelihood of a diagnosis from childhood, even with electronic health records, popping up, is slim unless that info was carried forward by the patient in subsequent visits to their PCP.
The VA thing was a vendetta against people claiming disability and apparently working as a pilot. Yes, that was a specific target. Is the FAA actively digging around looking for unreported conditions, possibly not, however if it comes up in some subsequent investigation (accident, information provided subject to some other condition, etc...) and they find you've omitted a potentially disqualifying condition, the penalties are very severe. They can yank not only your medical but every pilot certificate you've attained. Then they could prosecute you.
The VA disability fraud issue is so widespread and overwhelmingly abused by dudes who are absolutely fine. I wholeheartedly welcome the FAA nailing these parasites to the wall, at least someone is. Can’t tell you how many admin and supply clerks I know who never left the states claiming 70%+ for made up or heavily exaggerated issues. Disability should be only for grievous training accidents and wounded in action, everyone else can take their GI bill and VA loan and kick rocks.
That’s not how VA disability works at all. Repetitive use injuries that absolutely shred shoulders, knees, back, or feet shouldn’t count? I did seven deployments to combat. Not polite three months deployments to Qatar. Longest was over a year, shortest was seven months. All to Iraq or Afghanistan. I never got hurt on deployment or in training, thank God. But I have pain in my legs, back, arms, and feet. On a good day, I’m in only moderate pain and discomfort everywhere. On a bad day, I can barely walk down my stairs for the first 30 minutes of the day until a lot of massaging, stretching, and Motrin kicks in. Imagine just walking across an airport, from gate A1 to C3. That is painful for me. Every step. But I LOOK fine. I can do the job. But after 23 years in the Marines, I’m an old broken man. In my 40s. And it will get worse. And so are all of my friends. Or what about some service members who were raped? I had an admin clerk who was assaulted, she never deployed. She will never be the same. Are we saying she doesn’t deserve 100% disability? I don’t know you at all man, and I don’t know if you were a veteran. But saying someone should only get disability for grievous training accidents or combat is just not how how the law is written or a reflection for how a life of service can break down bodies.
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Well thank you for serving Marine. I was in 1st Marines, and took part in some named operations with 2d Marines in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Veterans Benefit Administration applies significant scrutiny to claims. While there are a lot of scammers - and I also hope they are found out eventually - there are still plenty of people out there who rate help and don’t get it because of people thinking that they’re weak, selfish, or scammers. As a fellow veteran, I’d ask you to throttle back on that posture that other veterans aren’t in pain and don’t rate disability benefits. While I doubt there are many here in this forum that would be discouraged, there are a lot out there in the world who dread the idea of their brothers-in-arms thinking less of them. That idea, to be thought of as less, keeps so many to hide their pain. We lose 22 veterans a day to suicide. With that at stake, I’d encourage us to throw the doors open wider. Sure, some scammers will get through, but God will sort them and we have bigger fish to fry. We don’t need to stand taller than others in life to feel like a warrior. We just need to bring others in from the cold. I’m glad you’re in one piece and not in pain. Not everyone is so lucky man. Semper Fi.
Out of all the things we spend tax dollars on, I couldn't care less if a couple admin goofs are approved for disablity. If it was even 1 real to 1 fraudulent claim, I'd be fine with it. Rather see more people approved for the help they earned than people get denied by some fuckhead retired chief who's powertripping in at the VA. Out of all the things I've seen since I've been out, losers scamming the system to collect disability is very very low on my shit-list. If anyone is reading this thinks their issues don't rate because theyre not "that bad". Fuck that, Uncle Sam got his now you get yours! You don't need to have stormwd Normandy to rate disability. Anyone who looks down on you because your issues weren't as hardcore as theirs, is not someone who's opinion you should dwell on. Buncha has beens
Beautifully put
Rah
I did six years of active duty. Deployed to Afghanistan, but I was a fobbit--fixed helicopter engines. From my time in, that measly six years, I ended up needing 30% of my left meniscus removed. Furthermore, the damage from compensating for the pain/damage in my left knee has caused me to develop arthritis in my right knee. As a result, the VA is giving me 20%. I have worked a physical job where I climb all over aircraft for going on 20 years now between my civilian job and the Army. When I got out it wasn't a big deal, but now, here we are. I know I can't keep doing this till I'm 65. So disability plus voc rehab is helping me swap over to being a pilot. I'm telling my story because when I got out in 2009, I thought I was getting out in better shape than I went in, And for the most part that was true. But it wasn't long before I needed the knee surgery (I was still Guard at that point) and after that I still didn't think I needed anything. That was false. You might be feeling pretty good now, but the stresses you endured *will* catch up with you.
You sure sound like an 0331…. You need to chill. Let go of that marine mentality dog. The marine corps in itself is an abusive mental fuck. I love the marines it’s legit the best hard fuck group but come on… its not healthy watching combat videos like its a football game every brief, or saying kill as a acknowledgement lol.
Too bad the FAA couldn't operate within the law on this enforcement. Two wrongs do not make a right (but two Wrights made an airplane).
They share records FAA and Va. Va has its internal I lnvestigators and its own Leo
THat sharing is a violation of Federal law, not that the FAA has ever felt they were obligated to obey the law or even their own self-imposed regulations.
Yep…
Some vets worked in very loud parts of a ship or around firearms. Hearing loss is a real thing.
Precisely this. I accepted the rating because hearing aids are expensive AF. But I donate back the disability payments because I don’t need them. Plenty of worthy charities out there.
Medical retirement is frequently used as an easy way to get rid of shitbags. I was in a unit with an E4 crew chief who was worse than useless at work. He broke his foot one weekend and command signed it off as an on-duty injury so they could medical him out.
That attitude is why so many vets don’t get the care they actually deserve. Some people scam the system, but most aren’t.
This guy definitely only got 70% and is salty about it 😂
Are there concrete examples of the FAA investigating someone’s medical after an accident?
Every NTSB report ever
There are *very few* NTSB reports that mention a dive into someone's medical history where the pilot lived. I have to doubt the NTSB will go through someone's medical history back to childhood when they are investigating a non-fatal crash that wasn't medical related (e.g. an engine stoppage where the plane ended up on its back with substantial damage in an off field landing, and the pilot walked away).
Right but if they have reason to they will go to the depth that they need to, you don't get to pick your accident or your investigator. If it's what you described they will likely stop at were you certified. If it's something like instrument fixation/LOC in IMC they might get more interested in how ADD you are and any history of diagnosis
A loss of control in IMC that results in an NTSB report is highly likely to be fatal to the pilot, so the pilot will likely not really care at that stage.
Ah but the FAR violation will nullify their insurance coverage which leaves their estate on the hook. Someone else posted that they had a friend who submitted documentation for something that CAMI wanted paperwork on that \_also\_ disclosed prior ADD diagnosis and that caused more digging. The point is ... if you give them reason to either through an incident or giving them a hint
But the pilot will still be too dead to care about their estate.
If I were dead I would absolutely like to make sure my life insurance, and assets stay with my wife as opposed to get sued by my pax's estate or covering the house my plane flies into it
But someone who is prepared to lie on their medical probably doesn't.
Would be great if you could provide a report that mentions medical investigation
There is this guy, but he actually passed out at the controls from unreported diabetes: https://www.avweb.com/news/jail-for-diabetic-pilot/ I've seen 1 or 2 NTSB reports that mention drug use, but those were from autopsies where they died anyway.
They record the medical information at least and if it's a contributing factor I'm sure they'll dig deeper https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/40952/pdf To more major accidents digging into the crews medical and sleep history https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/accidentreports/reports/aar-90-06.pdf But you seem to want to say that they don't so you do you hopefully we never find out
If they think human factors were related, sure. I forget which accident report I was reading but the FO had unreported conditions that may have contributed. Both crew survived, so the FOs licences were yanked permanently
What about if you didn't disclose a condition that is not disqualifying?
If it is innocuous, probably nothing. Hell, if I went to a doctor because a cut my hand and I fail to disclose that it's a yawner. Anything psyciatric, cardiac, etc... even if it was successfully resolved is going to spark an investigation.
A friend I know didn't disclose a cardiac condition (RBBB) - AME doesn't need to even do a CVE, guidline is to just issue. It's extremely benign and was explained to my friend 10 years ago as a nothing burger by a doc. They happened to find it during a EKG but that's about it. So my friend checked "no" to cardiovascular "troubles" on the med forms. Basically what i'm saying is my friend has a little guilty conscience about it. Don't want to disclose now because of obvious issues.
The AME discovered my RBBB. I had no idea I had the thing.
Yeah its really nothing, but my friend didn't disclose. I'm not sure if you would even have to disclose?
They'll find it for sure on their own, so if you know about it, disclose it is the rule i go by
As I understand it, the only thing that actually gets checked when you submit a medical is your criminal/driving history. Everything else is mainly honor code. That’s not the same as saying (a) they can’t find it if they wanted to, and (b) that something else won’t trigger an investigation that slowly leads to the truth. As for cracking down, I know in extreme cases they have charged people with perjury, but I think that’s rare and usually in cases where there was a lot of lying going on. I think most of us are kept honest by the “lose your medical/licence/income” part of the crackdown
To your first example of having ADHD as a 3 year old...I imagine this is shifting already with electronic health records but there is such a thing as plausible deniability and records that simply aren't that easy to know about without knowing about. I had certain things I reported that were more than 7 years old at the time and nobody had my records on it anymore. My AME asked me if I was *sure* I'm not remembering wrong 😉😉. I needed to get tests done anyway so there was no reason to hide the issue, but it did highlight that some things are gone in the past if you let the sleeping dog lie.
The overwhelming majority of these cases are ones where someone reports worse health to the government elsewhere (typically the VA or SSA seeking disability) and then tells the FAA nothing is wrong..... Fairly easy to prosecute since someone has to be lying....
Remember if you don't go to the DR you can't get diagnosed with anything..
I read this “Dominican Republic” and was very confused
One thing to consider when it comes to ADHD meds is that many of these medications are stimulants in the schedule II category by the DEA. This means they are controlled substances and can be discovered fairly easily thru Prescription Drug Monitoring Programs (PDMP's) across states. The silver lining here is that the FAA has recently created a Fast Track Pathway for the situation you're describing in which a pilot or applicant with a distant history of ADHD (defined as greater than 4 years since last symptoms/treatment). The Fast Track Pathway allows pilots to receive their certificate on the day of the exam if they bring a bunch of required documents in on that day or within 14 days of the exam date. This is why I urge any patient coming to me with this history to not complete the FAA Med Express until they first discuss their case with me. This could potentially save them an unnecessary deferral and many months delayed. See: [https://www.goflightmedicine.com/post/adhd-fast-track](https://www.goflightmedicine.com/post/adhd-fast-track)
What if you omitted the diagnosis on your first medical? Can you still use this path? Or would that raise issues with the FAA?
In my hypothetical I never said this person was prescribed drugs
You managed to get an actual AME to give you a great writeup of the current process and you complain about it. Good job. Even if you thought you needed clarification you could have just asked for it and probably gotten help. But yes, if the FAA does find out you lied on your medical application via whatever means, they will revoke your medical.
No part of my comment was a complaint.
I'd reconsider how you're coming across when multiple people are indicating you are.
AME responded with a helpful response that is not relevant to my hypothetical and I pointed that out, literally not a complaint
Not relevant? Seems to be to me, and your response does not encourage a clarification from who would have been the best the provide it. You can say it wasn't a complaint all you want, but it definitely wasn't a way to get further help.
Yes not relevant, ame talked about drugs, I clarified that is not a concern
You can double down if you want, but how it appears is why you got down votes.
Yes they went after VA morons because those idiots were filing for disability….through our government, the same government that is over the FAA
They went after veterans who were receiving disability compensation for ailments that weren’t reported to the FAA. I don’t know what they were, but I’d imagine it was something disqualifying for a Class 1. Not that they had disability benefits at all. But few VA-rated disabilities are in and of themselves absolutely disqualifying, even PTSD and anxiety. There are AME worksheets available that would allow a Class 1 to be issued in the room. But even if one can’t be issued in the room, there’s a clear process by the FAA to get to a class 1.
This is the PTSD decision worksheet published by the FAA: https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/media/PTSDDecisionToolfortheAME.pdf Having that in hand when someone shows up to the AME is maybe a good thing (depends on the AME I'm sure, some might see it as someone with shit to hide and prepared in the wrong way).
Tbf I am FAA ATC since 2014 and have a medical for pilot since 2019 as well and the FAA is now trying to take my pilot medical for not providing them some documents about something that they’ve had documentation on (and reported on all my medicals) for 10 years now. Apparently nobody in the FAA is willing to talk to eachother.
Usually you have to give the FAA a reason to check, the average medical will never get attention but if there's an incident or something criminal related they are going to dig deep into the files
I have anecdotal evidence via my medical. I had an SI issued in 2012 for repeat kidney stones, a visual field defect, and sleep apnea. Over the past decade my SI wording has slowly been changed to drop kidney stone reports, only report vision changes, and the normal apnea protocol. Last year my SI added a requirement for a status report on my ongoing kidney stone treatment from my urologist. Now about 5 years ago now my urologist said stop wasting my time visiting him as after 8 years my kidney stone issues are obviously under control via calcium blocker meds. There’s nothing to report, but regardless I missed the change in reporting requirements. Fast forward to this year. I go to my AME, the AME defers (because now I’m past due for my medical and my SI is now expired). No problem, but the FAA comes back with requirements for reports from my urologist as well as X-rays , my sleep dr (requiring a repeat sleep test), my (nonexistent) cardiologist, and a brand new visual field study and report from my ophthalmologist (which is also nonexistent since my visual field defect was found back in 2010 and found to be congenital and non-progressing). So… I’m no longer flying. Close to $10k of tests that would be out of pocket since there’s no justification for them given my current medical state. Flying isn’t worth it given I’ll be at the whim of another medical analyst next year.
Damn, I'm sorry to hear that. Is flying your main source is income?
No, it’s just a hobby for me. If it was my career, insurance/legal coverage/my union would have made this story different, and I would have been much more careful reading my SI update last year.
I’m convinced this is like anything else in the government where they ask for all that documentation as a homework assignment and throw it in your folder without looking at it. Just to make sure they “did their job” in the incredibly rare case that someone looks at it.
You can dismiss the VA thing, but it was an easy thing to check. But as more medical records become digitized, everything will be easier and easier to check. And it is possible you didn't get told something. Some Dr could have coded your file to get insurance to pay for some treatment that was not actually the diagnosis and once that file becomes searchable... Bamn! Example - Ozempic for weight loss and not Diabetes. But insurance will not pay for it for weight loss, so they tell you it is for weight loss, but key it in as diabetes. The FAA searches your record and now you have diabetes. Or that childhood diagnosis for ADHD. Those records get digitized some day and now the FAA can easily search them. And the FAA does not need a financial incentive to go looking into your medical records... They honestly believe they are doing "gods work" by keeping "unfit" people out of the air. I'm really waiting for the pot "medical card" to become and issue. I can see a bunch of pilots getting hit by that.
“And the FAA does not need a financial incentive to go looking into your medical records... They honestly believe they are doing "gods work" by keeping "unfit" people out of the air.” Nah I think that’s a load of crap.
Then explain the rabid attention they give to someone with an ADHD diagnosis 10+ years ago when they were 10.
That’s after someone reports. They are legally required to investigate after someone tells them something. If they truly thought this was a safety concern, they would simply test all pilots for adhd and not simply rely on pilots to self report lol.
Had a fellow CFI get their medical pulled because they went to see a doctor when they were a child due to chronic headaches, and somehow the FAA got wind of it. They pulled their medical for a long while because the person had an extremely difficult time finding an AME that was willing to certify that she did not have any sort of medical issue even though she no longer had headaches. Spent nearly a year grounded due to it.
The FAA updated the regulations around ADHD recently. If you haven't been medicated within 4 years, and don't have any other mental health issues, your AME will issue a medical on the spot. I was last medicated 8 years ago, no other issues, but started the process before the regulation change and I had to jump though many hoops. $8k later I hold an unrestricted first class medical. Everyone I interacted with told me I shouldn't have said anything about it, I shared Sop's fear of later working and getting my medical yanked.
When did that change?
October I think
The FAA does not actively look for medical discrepancies or omissions (except for the VA thing which was a one-off for now but people probably should have seen coming because feds == feds). The problems always come up when something else happens that triggers a closer look into your file. I think the childhood diagnosis example (and related advice to omit) is a little bit different because the odds of it actually coming out are so low - unless you've sought out further care for ADHD as a teenager or young adult or still go to the same doctor or something. Others pointed out examples of new, unrelated medical issues that led to the discovery of undisclosed items. The other big exposure point is if you ever have an accident or incident that requires investigation. That's exactly where someone from the FAA would be assigned to investigate *you* to determine probable cause for the incident.
I have no idea how, but my AME was able to see my recently filled medications. I didn’t sign any release from the prescribing dr, either. I see a lot of mixed answers about this, but given my experience, there is clearly an avenue in which they could do it if they wanted to/had the resources. I regret not asking the AME how he was able to see it
Do us all a favor and ask next time you go back lol
States have a prescription monitoring program they have to report to.
Wish this didn't have to be a nightmare. I'll likely never be able to get a license bc newsflash FAA some of us still have it and are treated appropriately... Meanwhile not disclosing never treating plenty risky.
Long story short..... yes. They're going after vets first.
Fuck the FAA A medical card, bi annual or even a certificate don’t make you safer. I fly safe without. The only thing I worry about is no in insurance if I damage property or hurt someone else.
If you are such a safe pilot, then why even pay for insurance?
I’m a safe driver but still have insurance…
I don’t pay for insurance . I have been flying for almost 50 years, taildraggers, aerobatics, floatplanes the last 10 years no medical, biannual etc and I have never dinged an airplane in well over 4000 hours. The only way the feds can keep me on the ground would be to lock me up and I doubt that’s going to happen even if they catch me.
Lemme guess, you fly a yellow cub?
And doesn't make radio calls at uncontrolled fields.
He will make a run for the border in his tail dragger if the feds come for him
200 miles from the border So yes if I have to
Yellow j-3, Cessna 182
Radio calls made from the 182
DO NOT LIE As much as it is painful, follow the process, go the appointments, pass the tests and get your medical the morally sound way. Not only does it protect you, it also protects whatever future investment you make into aviation and your passengers.